Atlas of internet surveillance maps ownership of network infrastructures worldw(techxplore.com)
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Atlas of internet surveillance maps ownership of network infrastructures worldw
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-03-atlas-internet-surveillance-ownership-network.html
40 comments
The article begins by assuming a world split into two camps;
freedom-loving liberal democracies and authoritarian hell-holes, each
delimited by strong national borders.
That's still somewhat true. We may criticise our society in this forum and not be arrested by thugs. That should be evidence enough that for 80 years since the last world war we've maintained an alliance of ideals that were worth fighting for. Indeed, it's why we have concepts like "national security", although the common meaning of that has been perverted and its reputation dragged into the mud.
Our more subtle problem is the supposed perimeters are no longer clear. We have fascists amongst us on our own soil. They are well ensconced in both government and private enterprise. Globalism and the Internet allowed the spread of authoritarianism which has taken root "at home", sadly much assisted by the technology we've built.
I think it's cynical and does us a disservice if you suggest that every company who disagrees with what the government wants has their CEO thrown in jail. When bullied, providers like Lavabit, TrueCrypt and others chose to shut down their companies and tell everybody why rather than collude in fascism. Much as I dislike Apple (because they are duplicitous) they also put on a show of principles. They may even sincerely believe that "protecting" their customers is a core value.
80 years ago people chose to make the "ultimate sacrifice" by giving their lives. Today the ultimate sacrifice is to forgo money. Qwest folded because they were weak on fascism and put money first, but they are not the only example to hold up. There are more important things than money in this world.
That's still somewhat true. We may criticise our society in this forum and not be arrested by thugs. That should be evidence enough that for 80 years since the last world war we've maintained an alliance of ideals that were worth fighting for. Indeed, it's why we have concepts like "national security", although the common meaning of that has been perverted and its reputation dragged into the mud.
Our more subtle problem is the supposed perimeters are no longer clear. We have fascists amongst us on our own soil. They are well ensconced in both government and private enterprise. Globalism and the Internet allowed the spread of authoritarianism which has taken root "at home", sadly much assisted by the technology we've built.
I think it's cynical and does us a disservice if you suggest that every company who disagrees with what the government wants has their CEO thrown in jail. When bullied, providers like Lavabit, TrueCrypt and others chose to shut down their companies and tell everybody why rather than collude in fascism. Much as I dislike Apple (because they are duplicitous) they also put on a show of principles. They may even sincerely believe that "protecting" their customers is a core value.
80 years ago people chose to make the "ultimate sacrifice" by giving their lives. Today the ultimate sacrifice is to forgo money. Qwest folded because they were weak on fascism and put money first, but they are not the only example to hold up. There are more important things than money in this world.
>That's still somewhat true. We may criticise our society in this forum and not be arrested by thugs.
Mostly when the outcome of the criticism happening doesn't matter.
And one can still very well be fired, fined, thrown off their college, for saying the wrong things in their "criticism of society", it's just that the establishment has those consequences distributed now.
Mostly when the outcome of the criticism happening doesn't matter.
And one can still very well be fired, fined, thrown off their college, for saying the wrong things in their "criticism of society", it's just that the establishment has those consequences distributed now.
You are correct, but this is precisely what I mean by sacrifice.
Freedom costs.
One has to have optimism beyond oneself - which is really a belief and care for the future and future generations.
I guess my point is that wherever you are in the world, and whatever frightened "elites" (legitimised criminal classes) you have to deal with, democracy and freedom are not states of being but ideals we make sacrifices for.
I think we have done a good job of standing up for that. I'm reminded on International Womens Day that people used to throw themselves under trains to make a point. They chose visible struggle. Protest is ever more costly. And what of Aaron Bushnell? Beyond comprehension! We've been living off the courage and sacrifice of 50 million lives 80 years ago so we're free to make money and have a good time, and that savings account is nearly empty.
Choosing to get fired, trash a "career", or forgo money seems a small sacrifice in the scheme of history and what others have given up.
Freedom costs.
One has to have optimism beyond oneself - which is really a belief and care for the future and future generations.
I guess my point is that wherever you are in the world, and whatever frightened "elites" (legitimised criminal classes) you have to deal with, democracy and freedom are not states of being but ideals we make sacrifices for.
I think we have done a good job of standing up for that. I'm reminded on International Womens Day that people used to throw themselves under trains to make a point. They chose visible struggle. Protest is ever more costly. And what of Aaron Bushnell? Beyond comprehension! We've been living off the courage and sacrifice of 50 million lives 80 years ago so we're free to make money and have a good time, and that savings account is nearly empty.
Choosing to get fired, trash a "career", or forgo money seems a small sacrifice in the scheme of history and what others have given up.
>That's still somewhat true. We may criticise our society in this forum and not be arrested by thugs.
This is possible in many if not most oppressive countries too. It's simply not worthwhile to throw every critic in prison. This doesn't mean they are protecting freedom, it just means that they've made a cost/benefit trade off that left somebody who wasn't that much of a threat to begin with out of prison.
When you see how we treat dissidents who are a threat to the powers that be (Assange, Snowden, Gonzalo Lira) I don't see a huge difference in how we treat them and how our geopolitical rivals treat theirs. We're slightly better than them at not doing it, but that could just be because our elites feel less threatened.
>That should be evidence enough that for 80 years since the last world war we've maintained an alliance of ideals that were worth fighting for.
Not very well, and we get more like Russia with every passing year. Sometimes the similarities are a little too on the nose - like when we bring down a jet to try and grab one dissident and then a year or two later they do it too.
This is possible in many if not most oppressive countries too. It's simply not worthwhile to throw every critic in prison. This doesn't mean they are protecting freedom, it just means that they've made a cost/benefit trade off that left somebody who wasn't that much of a threat to begin with out of prison.
When you see how we treat dissidents who are a threat to the powers that be (Assange, Snowden, Gonzalo Lira) I don't see a huge difference in how we treat them and how our geopolitical rivals treat theirs. We're slightly better than them at not doing it, but that could just be because our elites feel less threatened.
>That should be evidence enough that for 80 years since the last world war we've maintained an alliance of ideals that were worth fighting for.
Not very well, and we get more like Russia with every passing year. Sometimes the similarities are a little too on the nose - like when we bring down a jet to try and grab one dissident and then a year or two later they do it too.
"TrueCrypt"
Maybe not the best example as it was very likely build and run by a criminal to aid his crime cartel buisness, not someone acting on ideals.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Le_Roux
And TrueCrypt did officially recommend switching to BitLocker, where I am sure the NSA has backdoors for. So not sure what do you mean here.
Maybe not the best example as it was very likely build and run by a criminal to aid his crime cartel buisness, not someone acting on ideals.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Le_Roux
And TrueCrypt did officially recommend switching to BitLocker, where I am sure the NSA has backdoors for. So not sure what do you mean here.
Good to know that's a weak example. Thanks.
i don't have time to address all the wrong assumptions and bad knowledge in your comment. but your crown your ignorance by praising apple marketing against all common sense.
As I said, I dislike Apple because they are deceitful.
They are useful because they put on a show of principles. That helps remind people that privacy and security are valuable even if Apple's products do not in fact deliver. They are useful politically if not technically.
The rest of your reply seems lazy. If you've something to say then please have the courage and good manners to speak up and say it.
They are useful because they put on a show of principles. That helps remind people that privacy and security are valuable even if Apple's products do not in fact deliver. They are useful politically if not technically.
The rest of your reply seems lazy. If you've something to say then please have the courage and good manners to speak up and say it.
> We may criticise our society in this forum and not be arrested by thugs.
In the US because we have constitutional freedom of speech. But plenty of people in 'freedom-loving liberal democracies' are arrested for criticizing their societies. Unless you think the UK and Germany are authoritarian?
Besides, there are things we cannot even criticize in this forum.
> That should be evidence enough that for 80 years since the last world war we've maintained an alliance of ideals that were worth fighting for.
What alliance of ideals? What are the ideals? Other than maintaining the european domination of the world?
> 80 years ago people chose to make the "ultimate sacrifice" by giving their lives.
What? You sound like the morons that think we invade iraq to bring freedom and democracy.
In the US because we have constitutional freedom of speech. But plenty of people in 'freedom-loving liberal democracies' are arrested for criticizing their societies. Unless you think the UK and Germany are authoritarian?
Besides, there are things we cannot even criticize in this forum.
> That should be evidence enough that for 80 years since the last world war we've maintained an alliance of ideals that were worth fighting for.
What alliance of ideals? What are the ideals? Other than maintaining the european domination of the world?
> 80 years ago people chose to make the "ultimate sacrifice" by giving their lives.
What? You sound like the morons that think we invade iraq to bring freedom and democracy.
> In the US because we have constitutional freedom of speech.
In the UK we recently lost a lot of fundamental freedoms. Our current Tory party are spiteful and corrupt.
> Unless you think the UK and Germany are authoritarian?
There are extremist authoritarians everywhere. That was my point in the original post. And since they are essentially anti-democratic I think it's fair to label them as traitors and "enemies within".
> Besides, there are things we cannot even criticise in this forum.
We know that. Ycombinator has owners and a clear agenda. The punishment is being down-voted and made invisible. But there are ways to challenge entrenched ideas here and drag difficult topics out into the sunlight.
> What are the ideals?
Human rights. Particularly freedom of speech.
> Other than maintaining the European domination of the world?
I don't think it's fair to equate those things. I'm well aware of historical hegemony, That torch passed to the USA in the last century.
> What? You sound like the morons that think we invade Iraq to bring freedom and democracy.
Oh dear. I don't know where to start with all that. Iraq was an offensive resource war waged by the US to secure oil, with the side effect of toppling a disobedient puppet and assuaging the egos of two second rate Western leaders. That's not even debatable now. But to confuse that with the defeat of Nazism and Fascism in a world war in which 80-100 million people died shows an astonishingly poor grasp of history and politics.
In the UK we recently lost a lot of fundamental freedoms. Our current Tory party are spiteful and corrupt.
> Unless you think the UK and Germany are authoritarian?
There are extremist authoritarians everywhere. That was my point in the original post. And since they are essentially anti-democratic I think it's fair to label them as traitors and "enemies within".
> Besides, there are things we cannot even criticise in this forum.
We know that. Ycombinator has owners and a clear agenda. The punishment is being down-voted and made invisible. But there are ways to challenge entrenched ideas here and drag difficult topics out into the sunlight.
> What are the ideals?
Human rights. Particularly freedom of speech.
> Other than maintaining the European domination of the world?
I don't think it's fair to equate those things. I'm well aware of historical hegemony, That torch passed to the USA in the last century.
> What? You sound like the morons that think we invade Iraq to bring freedom and democracy.
Oh dear. I don't know where to start with all that. Iraq was an offensive resource war waged by the US to secure oil, with the side effect of toppling a disobedient puppet and assuaging the egos of two second rate Western leaders. That's not even debatable now. But to confuse that with the defeat of Nazism and Fascism in a world war in which 80-100 million people died shows an astonishingly poor grasp of history and politics.
> Human rights. Particularly freedom of speech.
Neither human rights and especially freedom of speech was a product of 'liberal freedom loving democracies'.
> That torch passed to the USA in the last century.
America is a european nation. Founded by europeans and populated by europeans.
> But to confuse that with the defeat of Nazism and Fascism in a world war in which 80-100 million people died shows an astonishingly poor grasp of history and politics.
You forget most americans didn't want to defeat 'the nazis' or 'fascism'. Like every war we got involved in, it was against the will of the people. Besides, nazism and fascism was defeated by bigger nazis and bigger fascists. No serious person thinks the US, british empire or soviet union were any better than germany, italy and japan.
Neither human rights and especially freedom of speech was a product of 'liberal freedom loving democracies'.
> That torch passed to the USA in the last century.
America is a european nation. Founded by europeans and populated by europeans.
> But to confuse that with the defeat of Nazism and Fascism in a world war in which 80-100 million people died shows an astonishingly poor grasp of history and politics.
You forget most americans didn't want to defeat 'the nazis' or 'fascism'. Like every war we got involved in, it was against the will of the people. Besides, nazism and fascism was defeated by bigger nazis and bigger fascists. No serious person thinks the US, british empire or soviet union were any better than germany, italy and japan.
I'm curious what glorious civilisation could ever meet your standards
of approval?
None. That's my point.
> We may criticise our society in this forum and not be arrested by thugs.
Sure, but try doing in person and it can be a very different story.
Sure, but try doing in person and it can be a very different story.
The thole 'paper' is a trash-level 'research', adds no knowledge at all.
Typical in that area: 'I run ping from random places here are random graphs', let's assume some nonsense and there are bizarre conclusions.
I can’t upvote this more, kudos to realization that the evolution of the apranet has not ever been anything less than a military network controlled by the US.
Exactly. So called "liberal western democracies" are essentially running the same game as the oh so bad "authoritarian states", just in a roundabout way (Protect the children, the war on "terror" etc ...) .
These "privately owned" companies have always been in bed with the military industrial complex. I'm glad more and more americans and westerners are waking up to this reality and this false dichotomy.
These "privately owned" companies have always been in bed with the military industrial complex. I'm glad more and more americans and westerners are waking up to this reality and this false dichotomy.
Yes, corporations and the state working together is concealed fascism. We can choose red or blue, but nothing changes.
> concealed fascism. We can choose red or blue
Presuming this, I can see distance between dominant and recessive fascism. Elements of recessive fascism can be whittled down - if enough of society is conscientious.
Presuming this, I can see distance between dominant and recessive fascism. Elements of recessive fascism can be whittled down - if enough of society is conscientious.
You can demonstrate in countless ways that democracies are freer than dictatorships but that will never stop a huge swath of online population from claiming that they are, in fact, the same.
Many people haven't experienced dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. So their view of this is painted in relative terms, not absolute. Things got worse, things look more and more like what they hear from dictatorships so they draw a conclusion that democracies doing the same means they are the same.
But in fact in such cases they're more right that you think. If a force is powerful enough to push a healthy democracy towards authoritarianism you damn well should be very, very concerned. Because it takes an enormous amount of will and effort do do this but it gets easier at every step. This is far more power than most dictators have to just maintain the status quo.
Like a train slowly rolling out of the train station, don't think it's barely moving, think that the motor behind it can move the whole damn thing from a standstill. By the time you figure out what's happening it's too late to fix anything without a lot of collateral damage.
But in fact in such cases they're more right that you think. If a force is powerful enough to push a healthy democracy towards authoritarianism you damn well should be very, very concerned. Because it takes an enormous amount of will and effort do do this but it gets easier at every step. This is far more power than most dictators have to just maintain the status quo.
Like a train slowly rolling out of the train station, don't think it's barely moving, think that the motor behind it can move the whole damn thing from a standstill. By the time you figure out what's happening it's too late to fix anything without a lot of collateral damage.
I somewhat disagree. Folks who are aware of authoritarian trends in societies are generally nuanced enough to see that there's still a chasm to be crossed. So you don't get to hear the "USA is on the way to become $dictatorship" near as often as "actually $dictatorship is just as free or freer than the USA".
> you don't get to hear the "USA is on the way to become $dictatorship" near as often as "actually $dictatorship is just as free or freer than the USA".
I think either can be the prominent message; it depends on the speaker(s). People who favor dictatorship-enabling factors will rationalize and redefine those factors as freedom.
I think either can be the prominent message; it depends on the speaker(s). People who favor dictatorship-enabling factors will rationalize and redefine those factors as freedom.
From my personal experience (very anecdotal of course, also Western but outside-US view*) I can't remember a time I've heard someone saying "$dictatorship is just as free or freer than the USA". I occasionally heard "it's not as bad as it sounds". On the other hand I hear "USA is on the way to become $dictatorship" almost on a daily basis.
But it makes sense because in the way it's meant to be understood it's correct. One is a threshold that's reasonably easy to judge, the other is a process and the rate of advance can be the same whether you're close to the start or end of the process. The rate is the strongest signal, not just the absolute position.
If you travel from NY to LA most of the time you can tell if you're closer to one or the other. But no matter where you are on the route, you are indeed traveling from NY to LA. Going back to what I said in my previous comment, you should be scared that it's happening nonetheless. Getting a huge democracy like the USA to start to slide into authoritarianism, even just localized (for now) takes a lot of power and every step towards that destination becomes easier. The hardest part was already done - the inertia was defeated and the train is slowly rolling. Don't sit comfortably thinking "we're clearly freer than Belarus" because you're right today but you won't even notice when you pass the point of no return. Boiling frog and all that. I say this as a person who lived through times like that more than once. Freedoms are lost in the silence of the night but are (re)gained usually with blood, sweat, and tears. Wherever you think you are, be mindful of that.
*I have some bias here, I have mostly Western/EU-like views, I'm on forums with more US/EU people where they may complain about their own home, but they're also likely to "silence" opinions like "dictatorship better than your country". Or any opinion that doesn't align with the same Western views. More and more places are open just to pandering to the popular opinion. Like sitting in front of some 1st place football team supporters telling them their team is slipping, you'll still get your clock punched even if you're right.
But it makes sense because in the way it's meant to be understood it's correct. One is a threshold that's reasonably easy to judge, the other is a process and the rate of advance can be the same whether you're close to the start or end of the process. The rate is the strongest signal, not just the absolute position.
If you travel from NY to LA most of the time you can tell if you're closer to one or the other. But no matter where you are on the route, you are indeed traveling from NY to LA. Going back to what I said in my previous comment, you should be scared that it's happening nonetheless. Getting a huge democracy like the USA to start to slide into authoritarianism, even just localized (for now) takes a lot of power and every step towards that destination becomes easier. The hardest part was already done - the inertia was defeated and the train is slowly rolling. Don't sit comfortably thinking "we're clearly freer than Belarus" because you're right today but you won't even notice when you pass the point of no return. Boiling frog and all that. I say this as a person who lived through times like that more than once. Freedoms are lost in the silence of the night but are (re)gained usually with blood, sweat, and tears. Wherever you think you are, be mindful of that.
*I have some bias here, I have mostly Western/EU-like views, I'm on forums with more US/EU people where they may complain about their own home, but they're also likely to "silence" opinions like "dictatorship better than your country". Or any opinion that doesn't align with the same Western views. More and more places are open just to pandering to the popular opinion. Like sitting in front of some 1st place football team supporters telling them their team is slipping, you'll still get your clock punched even if you're right.
Case in point, this thread.
I wonder what it is about people in the West over the last generation that eliminates their ability to distinguish between “not ideal” and “terrible”, if the “not ideal” is their home base.
I wonder what it is about people in the West over the last generation that eliminates their ability to distinguish between “not ideal” and “terrible”, if the “not ideal” is their home base.
I think it's a class thing. I've told juniors that at a certain point in the social ladder, people start using language funny. Someone saying something is "not ideal" tends to translate to "it's terrible", but specifically when used by management/political types it picks up the real consequent of: "but I'll subject my people to it if that's what it takes, and no one can come up with anything better".
I've increasingly found that the more life manages to centralize around just a few people being in those types of positions, the worse it gets.
I've increasingly found that the more life manages to centralize around just a few people being in those types of positions, the worse it gets.
The internet itself is often cited as the cause. "Social Medial"
Income inequality is probably more likely, with internet making it easier to see.
In the US, while economy is "good", it ignores a large % of population struggling, and if they are on Social Media, they see the differences.
Then popular uprising, and boom, revolution, dictatorship.
The people that are suffering, don't have the bandwidth to think about "not ideal" versus "terrible".
Income inequality is probably more likely, with internet making it easier to see.
In the US, while economy is "good", it ignores a large % of population struggling, and if they are on Social Media, they see the differences.
Then popular uprising, and boom, revolution, dictatorship.
The people that are suffering, don't have the bandwidth to think about "not ideal" versus "terrible".
Ironically, the internet and the free access to information that comes with it have essentially removed the veil.
dictatorship are freedom paradises for the people in power and those around them. likewise democracies, you also probably never experienced being poor and black in the usa.
nothing is simple. most immigrants praising usa do from your moneyed family leaving Yugoslavia or Persia or something.
everything can be demonstrated in countless ways. not just a point based on your limited personal experience.
nothing is simple. most immigrants praising usa do from your moneyed family leaving Yugoslavia or Persia or something.
everything can be demonstrated in countless ways. not just a point based on your limited personal experience.
the problem is, the democracies are adopting the worst practices of dictatorships at an alarming rate.
it is all veiled in a thin veneer of legitimacy, of course - protecting children, fighting terrorists, fighting nazis, fighting disinformation, etc, etc, etc, and there are plenty of people who will foam at the mouth to defend such measures as absolutely necessary and morally just.
I live in an authoritarion shithole myself, and I'm watching EU/US/CA/ANZ rapidly become more and more like my country with a mix of amusement and dismay.
it is all veiled in a thin veneer of legitimacy, of course - protecting children, fighting terrorists, fighting nazis, fighting disinformation, etc, etc, etc, and there are plenty of people who will foam at the mouth to defend such measures as absolutely necessary and morally just.
I live in an authoritarion shithole myself, and I'm watching EU/US/CA/ANZ rapidly become more and more like my country with a mix of amusement and dismay.
I've been hit so many times by the 'you have freedom of speech - as long you agree with us' line in the last 5 or 6 years... and can't believe how many friends also think along similar lines.
Please make that demonstration then.
I'm confused by their methodology. If I can put a tap on the AMS=IX, that gives me access to a huge % of EU traffic regardless of wheter private or public entities own some adress space. In practice the Internet is full of these points of concentration. Whether these were more often born out of traditional network effects of peering in commercial settings or because of authocratic enforcement, the resulting surveillance and control centralization remains the same.
Link to the actual study: https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/3/3/pgae069/76081...
There is another motivation for the state to run isps other than censorship. Socialists may consider the internet infrastructure, just like roads. This article does feel a bit like propaganda for truth justice and the American way..
"Socialists may consider the internet infrastructure"
In general yes, but which countries in question would you judge socialist?
And the socialist countries from before, well I rather would describe them as a constructs, where everyone was employed by a state owned company.
In general yes, but which countries in question would you judge socialist?
And the socialist countries from before, well I rather would describe them as a constructs, where everyone was employed by a state owned company.
I came here to just say that
> A German-American research team led by the University of Konstanz has mapped the ownership of network infrastructures in democratic and authoritarian states worldwide to show how autocrats control the internet via state-owned service providers.
They "forgot" to look at the nodes, who are all controlled by NSA.
They "forgot" to look at the nodes, who are all controlled by NSA.
Since when is, CIXP for example, controlled by the NSA?
This is basically irrelevant as long as there are only a small number of gigantic providers. If the shareholders disagree with the government, the company will do what the government wants.
This all played out with crystal clarity over two decades ago, when the CEO of Qwest (then one of the five largest carriers) refused to spy for the NSA. So they threw the CEO in prison and drove the company to the edge of bankruptcy (it no longer exists).
That was the last time a "privately owned" telecom giant ever said "no" to the NSA.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/pgg7q7/the-telecom-exec-who-...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-joseph-nacchio-...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/09/30...