ASML may be looking to leave the Netherlands(tomshardware.com)
tomshardware.com
ASML may be looking to leave the Netherlands
https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/manufacturing/asml-may-be-looking-to-leave-the-netherlands-but-the-dutch-government-is-desperate-to-keep-it-there
56 comments
FWIW my take would be the EU should not just prevent ASML from leaving, but also prohibit non-EU ownership for regional strategic reasons.
"Prevent" is a strong word. I would say that the best thing EU can do is facilitate conditions that would encourage ASML to stay home. Something obviously isn't going well if ASML can't expand within NL/EU and putting any further restrictions would scare businesses off.
How do you “prevent”? Throw employees in jail?
Last I check the Dutch have good protection for human rights.
Last I check the Dutch have good protection for human rights.
[dupe]
Some more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39615693
Some more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39615693
Just curious given their role in the world economy, are they above sea-level there?
ASML is located in the south of the Netherlands in Maastricht which sits at around 50m above sea-level.
So they have nothing to worry about on the climate change front
So they have nothing to worry about on the climate change front
ASML is in Eindhoven, an hour's drive north of Maastricht.
50m above sea is not that safe !
50m is a lot. Somewhere around 25-30% of the world's population lives below 50m MSL; if something were to happen that even threatened a facility at 50m, semiconductors are pretty far down our list of concerns.
The Netherlands is possibly the safest (coastal) country in the world when it comes to rising sea levels. They've been taking back land from water for centuries.
I dont understand right-wing politicians sometimes.
Something like this has happened in sweden and now employers there are starving for talent.
basically there is a salary limit that changes often and a person who has already met the requirements for a work permit all of a sudden needs to have their salary increased same month the limit changes or face renewal-extension of work permit and immediate deportation.
We are not talking here about low-wage workers either (can you imagine the level of knowledge and skills required to work for ASML), why attack that group of people specifically?
We are not talking here about low-wage workers either (can you imagine the level of knowledge and skills required to work for ASML), why attack that group of people specifically?
May? Most likely will.
Where would they go? Germany? They don't give any tax breaks for migrant workers there. Actually nobody else in the EU does, it's only a Netherlands feature. Switzerland? It's even more difficult to get work visas there. US? Same and you need to pay even higher wages. Belgium? UK? Luxemburg?
From reporting in Dutch newspapers the government thinks ASML might be considering France.
Dubai, Israel, Singapore. Why do you think only Europe can do this?
Companies are made of people and people have lives.
Yeah not everyone from Netherlands will find Dubai or Israel enticing. No offense to those living in those places.
aren't salaries in all these higher on avg for tech workers compared to NL/EU in general? Imo in this case more likely Spain which is much friendlier with immigrant visas now
Canada, our government's happy to have companies bring in underpaid foreign labour instead of hiring locals. Sad that hasn't really gotten is anywhere in terms of attracting business investment.
I think maybe we should see through the corporate nonsense and stop pandering to these companies and their demands. There's more to being investment friendly than just offering low taxes and a surplus of cheap foreign labour.
I think maybe we should see through the corporate nonsense and stop pandering to these companies and their demands. There's more to being investment friendly than just offering low taxes and a surplus of cheap foreign labour.
canada still mostly pays higher than eu
Are you serious - if that's the case EU is in serious trouble
Col in canada is higher too, weather usually worse, car dependency, so it's not like you'll live much better as a person, it depends on priorities. I was referring more to the fact that it's more expensive for a company to hire there while not getting benefits out of it. You can hire for much cheaper very good devs in poland/romania/spain/italy and somewhat cheaper in western countries like nl, de, fr, dk, norway, etc
The US pays around 5x NL and has lower taxes
> A significant portion of ASML's workforce, about 40%, consists of labor migrants. The company has expressed concerns about the potential tightening of labor migration rules by a new right-wing cabinet, which could hinder its ability to hire new personnel and grow
Not informed about NL politics, but would any government be hindering high skilled legal immigration? In my experience this type of migration is highly encouraged, regardless of the left/right leanings of a government.
Definitely some are. In Finland the situation is basically such that if you cross the border from Russia illegally, you can just claim asylum and stay here for a long time, especially if your home country refuses to take you back against your will (which requires a police escort and lots of bureaucracy anyway). Meanwhile legal migrant workers, including skilled labor, are now subjected to tightened employment restrictions. If you lose your job and don't start in a new one within six months (original plan was three), you'll have to leave. This may make sense for low-skilled labour (of which there is no real shortage anyway), but IMO not for highly trained specialists that are in demand.
Many EU countries are only good at attracting exactly the kind of migration that isn't beneficial to economy.
Many EU countries are only good at attracting exactly the kind of migration that isn't beneficial to economy.
Yes, as an example the UK government just made it harder for foreign caregivers to migrate to the UK, despite the fact there's a severe shortage.
https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1759597950353752091...
Less migrants, or at least looking like you're trying to have less, tries to get the populist vote.
https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/1759597950353752091...
Less migrants, or at least looking like you're trying to have less, tries to get the populist vote.
How many migrants need caring?
Lately the Netherlands is revising tax laws that are disproportionately advantageous to those with higher incomes.
Tax breaks for well-paid foreigners are difficult to justify in this political climate, and have been reduced substantially in recent years.
Tax breaks for well-paid foreigners are difficult to justify in this political climate, and have been reduced substantially in recent years.
I love it when right wing political muppets are being shut down by innovative companies.
What a lot of xenofobic pundits from wealthy counties who vote right wing don't understand, is that a lot of their economic growth they saw in the last decade or two came BECAUSE of migration.
Would be curious if they're ready to put their money where their mouth is, as in, accept economic contraction for the sake of "getting rid of foreigners".
What a lot of xenofobic pundits from wealthy counties who vote right wing don't understand, is that a lot of their economic growth they saw in the last decade or two came BECAUSE of migration.
Would be curious if they're ready to put their money where their mouth is, as in, accept economic contraction for the sake of "getting rid of foreigners".
Why is migration considered a good thing? Migrants are taking away jobs from locals. Moving places is hard, you leave family and friends behind. It’s better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live.
Migration in general maybe not so much because then it's mostly just used as wage suppression, but skilled migration in niche fields like the one ASML operates in is absolutely necessary since a small county like NL can't produce all the specialized labor a large and growing company like ASML in a short timespan to satisfy their massive order books.
Training a skilled semiconductor engineer can take 6+ years but you need them right fucking now. You can't compress 6 years of education and training experience in an instant no matter how much you were to pay for the locals.
TSMC and Intel won't want to wait 6 years. They might as well wait for Nikon and Canon to solve EUV.
Training a skilled semiconductor engineer can take 6+ years but you need them right fucking now. You can't compress 6 years of education and training experience in an instant no matter how much you were to pay for the locals.
TSMC and Intel won't want to wait 6 years. They might as well wait for Nikon and Canon to solve EUV.
Wouldn't they be better off filling most positions locally even if quantity dips because long term those skills transfer rathering then hoping a migrant becomes a local? 40% is a high number required.
The realities of the world never work on "wouldn't it be better if...".
Yes it would be better if there was no war in Ukraine, no war in Gaza, no COVID, no economic downturn with inflation, etc. but the world doesn't function on our wishes, and companies operate on quarterly profits and can't wait for the world to become as they wish.
Yes it would be better if there was no war in Ukraine, no war in Gaza, no COVID, no economic downturn with inflation, etc. but the world doesn't function on our wishes, and companies operate on quarterly profits and can't wait for the world to become as they wish.
Long term they would be in a better position. Short term vs long term thinking.
The war piece is more complex. Ukraine war is about NATO expanding into Russian influence zones. Without that war we would be looking at a war in a different place, maybe even a nuclear war fighting over the same thing. The Gaza war is a proxy for a Iran/Israel war. COVID become a proxy war for a power grab by health officials. They still want countries to handover power over citizen to the who by the end of this month.
The war piece is more complex. Ukraine war is about NATO expanding into Russian influence zones. Without that war we would be looking at a war in a different place, maybe even a nuclear war fighting over the same thing. The Gaza war is a proxy for a Iran/Israel war. COVID become a proxy war for a power grab by health officials. They still want countries to handover power over citizen to the who by the end of this month.
For R&D it's usually winner take all, if you fall behind as a company then you might just end up irrelevant.
> better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live
This is a valid position. But naturally, those jobs won’t be of the high-value globally-connected variety. Plenty of agricultural communities do okay; they just aren’t going to be a good place for an ASML to be based.
This is a valid position. But naturally, those jobs won’t be of the high-value globally-connected variety. Plenty of agricultural communities do okay; they just aren’t going to be a good place for an ASML to be based.
> Why is migration considered a good thing? Migrants are taking away jobs from locals.
This is just not true generally.
Migrants usually barely make up for natality rate reduction. Many migrants with low level of education usually fill low skilled jobs that most locals aren't willing to do. Those with high level of skills usually fill up markets that are in dire need of those skills anyway or can become entrepreneurs themselves.
> Moving places is hard, you leave family and friends behind. It’s better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live.
I am a migrant, my SO is a migrant. Neither of us would have been as happy as we are had we stayed in our respective countries, and I am pretty sure given the feedback we get the companies we are working for wouldn't have been happier without us.
The irony is as a white, european guy, I am generally never targeted as the migrant who is taking away jobs from locals while my SO, as darker skinned migrant from a country in latin america still considered a developing country, is facing racism and is considered as a migrant stealing job by people having similar views as yours. Yet we are both working and contributing to the country we are living in the same way.
Let's face it, these kind of opinions is never about locals missing jobs but xenophoby.
This is just not true generally.
Migrants usually barely make up for natality rate reduction. Many migrants with low level of education usually fill low skilled jobs that most locals aren't willing to do. Those with high level of skills usually fill up markets that are in dire need of those skills anyway or can become entrepreneurs themselves.
> Moving places is hard, you leave family and friends behind. It’s better when everybody finds jobs locally where they live.
I am a migrant, my SO is a migrant. Neither of us would have been as happy as we are had we stayed in our respective countries, and I am pretty sure given the feedback we get the companies we are working for wouldn't have been happier without us.
The irony is as a white, european guy, I am generally never targeted as the migrant who is taking away jobs from locals while my SO, as darker skinned migrant from a country in latin america still considered a developing country, is facing racism and is considered as a migrant stealing job by people having similar views as yours. Yet we are both working and contributing to the country we are living in the same way.
Let's face it, these kind of opinions is never about locals missing jobs but xenophoby.
> Many migrants with low level of education usually fill low skilled jobs that most locals aren't willing to do.
Most likely because those low skilled jobs don’t pay enough.
Most likely because those low skilled jobs don’t pay enough.
Migrants more often than not create jobs for locals (just not uneducated locals, who get mad when uneducated migrants are willing to do the same work for less money).
The EU overall is in a less than reproduction rate. With less than two kinds per woman on average. With the boomer generation going into pension now there are a lot of jobs left unassigned. At the same time people are getting better educated and strive for higher jobs.
The notion that immigrants take away jobs is bullshit that has been fed to you by exactly those right wing shills. It's not the 2000nds anymore. We need so many workers l, especially in those low wage/low skill jobs.
At the same time employing an immigrant is much harder cultural wise that every employer probably picks a local over a immigrant when having the choice.
But feel free to talk to any recruiter.
The notion that immigrants take away jobs is bullshit that has been fed to you by exactly those right wing shills. It's not the 2000nds anymore. We need so many workers l, especially in those low wage/low skill jobs.
At the same time employing an immigrant is much harder cultural wise that every employer probably picks a local over a immigrant when having the choice.
But feel free to talk to any recruiter.
In Finland we've been told that there will be a huge shortage of workers since early 2000s or so. Yet it seems like barrier for entry in low-skilled jobs is only rising. In some areas even minimum wage jobs for teenagers require multi-step BS recruiting processes. Unemployment rate is not going down either.
Really at least in this country there is no general worker shortage, except in some skilled fields like healthcare. There are just lots of underpaid, part-time jobs that do not pay enough that you can survive off them - cleaning, food courier, over the phone sales etc. I don't believe creating a new class of underprivileged working poor from migrants is ethical, I believe any job worth doing should pay an adequate wage. It's not state's job to subsidize companies with slave labour. Attracting skilled workers to enter the country is entirely another matter, ones who can actually earn a livable wage benefit the society as a whole.
Really at least in this country there is no general worker shortage, except in some skilled fields like healthcare. There are just lots of underpaid, part-time jobs that do not pay enough that you can survive off them - cleaning, food courier, over the phone sales etc. I don't believe creating a new class of underprivileged working poor from migrants is ethical, I believe any job worth doing should pay an adequate wage. It's not state's job to subsidize companies with slave labour. Attracting skilled workers to enter the country is entirely another matter, ones who can actually earn a livable wage benefit the society as a whole.
> that has been fed to you
Nobody fed me anything. I used basic logic to come to that conclusion.
Nobody fed me anything. I used basic logic to come to that conclusion.
They said that about Canada too. As a result we had a surge in immigration that led to huge jumps in youth unemployment.
If companies are so desperate for workers why are wages stagnant and why are so many people getting ghosted during job interviews and why does it take so many applications to find a job. This doesn't add up.
We have record numbers of women in the workforce basically doubling the number of workers compared to the 50s. But apparently we can't find workers.
And now we're right wing racists because we object to you bringing in people from low income countries to work low skill entry level positions in a proposed system that a little too closely resembles colonial era slave trade.
Meanwhile there's a huge strain on housing prices and infrastructure and social services as we struggle to absorb this influx - why so corporations can have higher profit margins. So GDP can get a little higher.
And these clueless out of touch elites wonder why people are moving to the far right.
If companies are so desperate for workers why are wages stagnant and why are so many people getting ghosted during job interviews and why does it take so many applications to find a job. This doesn't add up.
We have record numbers of women in the workforce basically doubling the number of workers compared to the 50s. But apparently we can't find workers.
And now we're right wing racists because we object to you bringing in people from low income countries to work low skill entry level positions in a proposed system that a little too closely resembles colonial era slave trade.
Meanwhile there's a huge strain on housing prices and infrastructure and social services as we struggle to absorb this influx - why so corporations can have higher profit margins. So GDP can get a little higher.
And these clueless out of touch elites wonder why people are moving to the far right.
Prices are dictated by a global purchasing market. This means that salaries cannot grow because otherwise companies wouldn’t make profit, as they have to compete with products built by Chinese companies with much lower salaries.
This sounds like a race to the bottom where we keep demanding workers accept less and less to compete with poorer and poorer nations - while simultaneously ignoring that economic powerhouses like the US who pay workers relatively well
Globalization is exactly that, until there’s global equality of salaries. We’re seeing it at the moment where Chinese cars are taking over the market because they’re better priced than European or American alternatives. To compete they have to move production to Chinese, see for example the large production of teslas in china, or they replace humans by robots…
The biggest problem with free markets is that it’s not really a sustainable system in the sense that with a certain income you can’t afford the things you need provided by people enjoying similar incomes. Hence we need to mass import product from lower income countries, and even local labor needs to be imported from lower income countries. Cleaners from low income countries, construction workers from low income countries.
The biggest problem with free markets is that it’s not really a sustainable system in the sense that with a certain income you can’t afford the things you need provided by people enjoying similar incomes. Hence we need to mass import product from lower income countries, and even local labor needs to be imported from lower income countries. Cleaners from low income countries, construction workers from low income countries.
I don't buy that idea, an economy full of very poor people who can barely afford anything is not sustainable not at the national level and not at the global level.
Countries with very low wages are also countries with very low productivity (throwing cheap labour instead of technology and expertise at problems)
Countries with very low wages are also countries with very low productivity (throwing cheap labour instead of technology and expertise at problems)
Relationship between low wages and low productivity isn’t true, low wages are enabled by low costs of living. Cheaper employees can be more productive, and more expensive employees aren’t necessarily more productive. Or do you think every software engineer in SF is more productive than software engineers elsewhere?
Maybe not all but for the most part yes I do think software engineers in San Francisco are by in large more productive than software engineers in Kansas city.
Just like I think finance professionals in NYC are more productive than finance guys elsewhere.
There's a culture around that in those places and opportunities and tools that promote excellence in those fields in a way that is very difficult for someone acting alone.
Just like it's very difficult for a kid in Africa to become a Olympic runner while there are many African American sprinters too, the tools and training and instruction and mentorship is simply not available, the opportunity is not there for him to be able to reach his potential. And that often matters more than innate ability
Workers in many poorer countries are overcoming comparatively more barriers just to work, while in rich countries we have systems set up to help us be as productive as possible
Just like I think finance professionals in NYC are more productive than finance guys elsewhere.
There's a culture around that in those places and opportunities and tools that promote excellence in those fields in a way that is very difficult for someone acting alone.
Just like it's very difficult for a kid in Africa to become a Olympic runner while there are many African American sprinters too, the tools and training and instruction and mentorship is simply not available, the opportunity is not there for him to be able to reach his potential. And that often matters more than innate ability
Workers in many poorer countries are overcoming comparatively more barriers just to work, while in rich countries we have systems set up to help us be as productive as possible
Overall, as the OP says, the key issue is demographic. That doesn't mean that the issues you note don't exist. The pressure on housing is very real, but much of it is due to an ageing population. Certainly in many places there is a lack of a suitable housing mix that enables empty nests to downsize once the kids have left home, but still remain in the same community. So they rattle round in oversized houses, leading to pressure's the housing stock.
>Overall, as the OP says, the key issue is demographic.
Here's a weird thought: Maybe the EU could figure out what issues the locals are having preventing them from wanting kids, and fix them, instead of importing more migrants from impoverished nations, and calling it a day.
Here's a weird thought: Maybe the EU could figure out what issues the locals are having preventing them from wanting kids, and fix them, instead of importing more migrants from impoverished nations, and calling it a day.
You can't ask a politician to think without offering him money. /s