Long Covid brain fog may be due to damaged blood vessels in the brain(sciencenews.org)
sciencenews.org
Long Covid brain fog may be due to damaged blood vessels in the brain
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/long-covid-brain-fog-blood-brain-barrier-damage
162 comments
Not that this it's a good excuse, but it stressed doctors out when they are not able to diagnose something. So when all the tests and checks look good they are quick to dismiss the problems as psychosomatic as a way to cope with the stress of being unable to diagnose you.
It's a dysregulation of the ANS/sympathetic nervous system which is likely caused by auto antibodies - so it's very much physiological and outside the expertise of a psychiatrist.
It's a dysregulation of the ANS/sympathetic nervous system which is likely caused by auto antibodies - so it's very much physiological and outside the expertise of a psychiatrist.
While you are right, there is a common misconception that psychosomatic means that the patient is making up its symptoms and that it’s in his mind. That’s not what a doctor means by psychosomatic, but rather than the symptoms are totally real but that they are originating from stress.
So, any good doctor will try to heal your symptoms regardless of the cause. The only difference when they think it’s psychosomatic is that they’ll also try to treat your stress.
So, any good doctor will try to heal your symptoms regardless of the cause. The only difference when they think it’s psychosomatic is that they’ll also try to treat your stress.
Or perhaps 'the patient is creating symptoms using their mind' eh?
The symptoms exist, they are originating due to thoughts/beliefs in the mind.
The symptoms exist, they are originating due to thoughts/beliefs in the mind.
Yup. Most doctors are basically glorified pigeonholers. Grab pigeon (patient), find matching hole, put pigeon in hole and read the directions on the hole.
Unfortunately, when there isn't an obvious matching hole they tend to stuff them in wrong holes (there are conditions for which getting the right diagnosis often takes years), or when they don't see any appropriate hole they stuff them in the "crazy" hole. And the doctors are very reluctant to take a pigeon out of a wrong hole, especially if it's the crazy hole.
I recall a thread on here from some years back, diagnosis: anorexia. Real diagnosis: partial gastroparesis. She didn't want to eat because her body wasn't pushing the food on down the system properly and eating was very unpleasant!
Unfortunately, when there isn't an obvious matching hole they tend to stuff them in wrong holes (there are conditions for which getting the right diagnosis often takes years), or when they don't see any appropriate hole they stuff them in the "crazy" hole. And the doctors are very reluctant to take a pigeon out of a wrong hole, especially if it's the crazy hole.
I recall a thread on here from some years back, diagnosis: anorexia. Real diagnosis: partial gastroparesis. She didn't want to eat because her body wasn't pushing the food on down the system properly and eating was very unpleasant!
> physiological and outside the expertise of a psychiatrist
did you mean to say psychologist? In the US at least, psychiatry is a medical practice area. Writing Rx scrips requires pharmacological training, so you need to hold an MD amd pass medical boards etc. Not sure if DO route is even an option.
Psychology otoh can be practixed with a Psy.D (clinical focus) or Ph.D (research focus) no MD, residency involved.
did you mean to say psychologist? In the US at least, psychiatry is a medical practice area. Writing Rx scrips requires pharmacological training, so you need to hold an MD amd pass medical boards etc. Not sure if DO route is even an option.
Psychology otoh can be practixed with a Psy.D (clinical focus) or Ph.D (research focus) no MD, residency involved.
I've been getting this since having kids and I called it brain fog too because I didn't know how else to describe it as well. Tests all came back negative. I now just attribute it to exhaustion and lack of sleep, but I find as I get older the symptoms come fast if I don't sleep enough or I get sick and my body isn't 100%.
I had this as well and was diagnosed with sleep apnea. Sleep with a CPAP machine now and it has made a huge difference in my life.
Do you still feel like this? Is there anything that helped you?
I wrote a longer comment in this thread about things that helped me, you can find it in my comment history.
I’ll share an abridged long COVID story about myself since it dearly affected me. Just so other people can kind of know what the experience was like.
I got sick in October 2020 before vaccines were available. After the initial 10 days which I would describe as moderate, borderline severe (6/10, where 7/10 is hospital and 9/10 is ICU) I had all manner of absolutely weird things happen to my body. I won’t go into the details about the actual illness since the symptoms are well documented but suffice to say I had breathing issues and there was a lot of monitoring with the pulse oximeter
First, heart pain. Stabbing in the chest. I got on colchicine and saw a cardiologist. That lasted probably 2-3 months before it finally went away. I had ekg and echocardiogram, both came up clean.
Second, Reynauds. I live in Texas and it gets a little cold but not Nordic cold. For the first time in my life I had Reynauds symptoms during the winter and I lost feeling in my toes entirely unless they were submerged in hot water for multiple minutes. This happened many times that winter.
Next, weird food allergies. Eating anything with gluten caused me to, I kid you not, have me in bed gasping for air for hours at a time. I ate a pizza in this time period and instantly regretted it and that continued for hours.
More extremely strange circulatory issues: I wore a pair of running shoes for years and years before I got sick. I wore that same pair of shoes and it created lines and pain around my feet such that I went to the ER thinking it was a blood clot. No, it’s just that my tight shoes literally just bruised my feet for no explainable reason when they had never done that before.
POTS. Standing up made my heart rate spike for no reason. This is a measurable phenomena for people who have autoimmune disorders called the tilt table test. Had this for months
Everything luckily for me mostly went away within around 6 months. I had a lingering chest pain in breath that is now mostly gone that I genuinely thought I would deal with for the rest of my life. I think it’s basically gone now after almost 4 years.
I’m a scientific dude. My conclusion after all this is that it’s autoimmune and that no one actually understands the mechanism which is why people who complain about this get dismissed. It’s easier for a doctor to say “it’s all in your head” than to admit that the current body of knowledge of medicine simply does not understand what is happening to people’s bodies. I wish and hope that so many people suffering from this stuff like I did changes that perspective a bit.
I got sick in October 2020 before vaccines were available. After the initial 10 days which I would describe as moderate, borderline severe (6/10, where 7/10 is hospital and 9/10 is ICU) I had all manner of absolutely weird things happen to my body. I won’t go into the details about the actual illness since the symptoms are well documented but suffice to say I had breathing issues and there was a lot of monitoring with the pulse oximeter
First, heart pain. Stabbing in the chest. I got on colchicine and saw a cardiologist. That lasted probably 2-3 months before it finally went away. I had ekg and echocardiogram, both came up clean.
Second, Reynauds. I live in Texas and it gets a little cold but not Nordic cold. For the first time in my life I had Reynauds symptoms during the winter and I lost feeling in my toes entirely unless they were submerged in hot water for multiple minutes. This happened many times that winter.
Next, weird food allergies. Eating anything with gluten caused me to, I kid you not, have me in bed gasping for air for hours at a time. I ate a pizza in this time period and instantly regretted it and that continued for hours.
More extremely strange circulatory issues: I wore a pair of running shoes for years and years before I got sick. I wore that same pair of shoes and it created lines and pain around my feet such that I went to the ER thinking it was a blood clot. No, it’s just that my tight shoes literally just bruised my feet for no explainable reason when they had never done that before.
POTS. Standing up made my heart rate spike for no reason. This is a measurable phenomena for people who have autoimmune disorders called the tilt table test. Had this for months
Everything luckily for me mostly went away within around 6 months. I had a lingering chest pain in breath that is now mostly gone that I genuinely thought I would deal with for the rest of my life. I think it’s basically gone now after almost 4 years.
I’m a scientific dude. My conclusion after all this is that it’s autoimmune and that no one actually understands the mechanism which is why people who complain about this get dismissed. It’s easier for a doctor to say “it’s all in your head” than to admit that the current body of knowledge of medicine simply does not understand what is happening to people’s bodies. I wish and hope that so many people suffering from this stuff like I did changes that perspective a bit.
Precisely what happened to me. Doctor botched the disgnosis, my department in local government did everything in their power to push me out immediately upon sharing an honest assesment of how I was feeling, asserting that I was voluntarily resigning rather than genuinely ill - which came across as retaliation for some of them having to return to the office in my stead, as prior to catching covid-19 and suffering the above effects I had been the sole volunteer to work from the office and liase with the public on everyone elses behalf. There wasn’t much if any info about ling covid at the time, and HR ignored emails sent over the next year as I tried to apologize for my illness and communicate what it clearly turned out to be.
Completely healthy now, but passed over after every first interview no matter what I do or do not share about what lead me to leave the previous role. If you had to leave work, do you have any suggestions as to how I may come accross as employable again?
Completely healthy now, but passed over after every first interview no matter what I do or do not share about what lead me to leave the previous role. If you had to leave work, do you have any suggestions as to how I may come accross as employable again?
I was not working at the time I got sick (for unrelated, voluntary reasons), and ended up having a 2 year gap, at which point when returning and interviewing I essentially told people during interviews that I was “taking care of a sick family member” during my gap period, implying that this was the primary purpose of my gap. I left out that the sick family member happened to be myself. All the responses I got were understanding and no one ever pressed further.
Don't mention health issues in an interview, ever. It's unfortunate and really should be illegal to discriminate (not to mention passing up on people who have learned a lot of resilience traits and recovered function) but it's pretty much the kiss of death to mention any kind of sickness or chronic issue.
Yeah. But because it’s not explicitly illegal it is a very easy rejection from the employer. A chronic illness is zero upside and only downside from the employers perspective, so if they aren’t legally obligated to ignore it it’s a very easy no from their perspective. So as the candidate there is basically no reason to ever share that information up front because all it will do is get you basically instantly rejected
I didn't write the parent comment, but I'd note that being unemployable is a great reason to start your own business, and if you do it right you'll never need to answer to anybody again. (Besides customers, that is, but customers are usually a lot friendlier than HR departments.)
Another option would be to pick up freelance work. This can often lead to fulltime employment, particularly when a company hires you for a short gig and you impress them.
Another option would be to pick up freelance work. This can often lead to fulltime employment, particularly when a company hires you for a short gig and you impress them.
People generally see work because they need money, and meanwhile a business is one of the biggest money sinks when starting out. I don't really understand why people suggest this as general advice. If you're not already extremely experienced and established in your field, or if you don't have years of savings to live off, I can't imagine starting a business impromptu going well. You need a plan.
I strongly urge anyone dealing with these issues to look into the gut biome as a source of clues and experimentation. A lot is not known about the gut biome but we're discovering many autoimmune and autoimmune-like conditions are related to it.
Some things to do: get biome tests regularly, go on an elimination diet, find the right supplements, join various LC/mecfs communities doing this work.
The short answer is the medical system really doesn't know what to do here and if you're dealing w this stuff you have to take it into your own hands and familiarize yourself with the areas the medical system doesn't focus on.
Some things to do: get biome tests regularly, go on an elimination diet, find the right supplements, join various LC/mecfs communities doing this work.
The short answer is the medical system really doesn't know what to do here and if you're dealing w this stuff you have to take it into your own hands and familiarize yourself with the areas the medical system doesn't focus on.
I am dealing with brand-new-to-me gut problems this year (I'm overall a fairly fit and healthy guy) and I now completely understand why people seek all kinds of zany alternative pseudoscientific treatments: we have next to no idea what we're doing when it comes to gut health and wellness, and the personal impact can be enormous. I am fortunately able to continue working, but many or most people are not so fortunate and truly struggle, and financial and personal difficulties can hit fast and hard when you can't function the way you need to. So many people in the United States are desperate and have so few options. Our health and employment problems in this country are not just a tragedy but a crisis that has been growing for many years.
So sorry to hear the way this affected you. My wife had/has long covid - as I listened to people she met online with LC and a couple of people we knew already, what fascinated me was the 'menu' of symptoms that people got and just how different they could be, though overlapping.
She too had the POTS and range of aches and issues. While she's largely recovered now, she still has to pace herself.
Really hoping this is better understood in the future, and that we are better able to treat people with it.
She too had the POTS and range of aches and issues. While she's largely recovered now, she still has to pace herself.
Really hoping this is better understood in the future, and that we are better able to treat people with it.
I’m basically 100% fine now, but thanks. I just wish I could have told the me that existed right when I started having this happen that it would eventually get better. At the time it was very scary thinking that I might have to deal with POTS or shortness of breath for the rest of my life or that my organs were permanently damaged in some way.
I find myself more fortunate than most in that I never really had the fatigue and brain fog issues that plagued and possibly still plague many others. I could definitely see those things being quite detrimental to my mental health in the long term if I had them.
I find myself more fortunate than most in that I never really had the fatigue and brain fog issues that plagued and possibly still plague many others. I could definitely see those things being quite detrimental to my mental health in the long term if I had them.
Totally this - am many times as I said 'you will get better from this' - we both knew that was just a hope.
She's so much better now, and getting rid of POTS symptoms was a massive turning point for her, esp as we kept being told that no one recovers from POTS.
And yes, a friend of mine (male model in his 30s) who also had LC, could cycle for hours (no physical fatigue), but mental tasks totally wiped him out.
She's so much better now, and getting rid of POTS symptoms was a massive turning point for her, esp as we kept being told that no one recovers from POTS.
And yes, a friend of mine (male model in his 30s) who also had LC, could cycle for hours (no physical fatigue), but mental tasks totally wiped him out.
Several of these (Reynauds, food/digestion issues) sound like things that my family member dealt with after long-something-else. He was bedridden for nearly 2 years, diagnosed with CFS, and then (many years later) Lupus.
This comment just reinforces my belief that it’s autoimmune related. I have never had Reynauds (or ANY of these symptoms) before or after this. It was the first and only time I have ever seen any of the things I mentioned happen to my body. They just… went away and I was normal again eventually, luckily for me. Many aren’t so lucky
My wife got POTS for the first time in 2022, but we tested and tested and tested, we both never got Covid - but I have been suspecting that the tests were just junk. No other time in our life did her autoimmune issues that basically went away 8 years ago, came back 10x harder. Same thing with almost all of your symptoms. She's finally slowly getting better, but she still can't eat gluten right now.
Sorry to hear about your wife. As grandparent comment implies, it’s likely not just COVID that causes these autoimmune problems, but COVID is the thing that most people in recent times got that caused this, so it gets the most press. From my research I discovered that ME/CFS/Lupus and a lot of other autoimmune related illnesses have been documented in medicine for decades but until COVID the medical field largely considered these illnesses as mostly just a fringe medical phenomena for interested researchers that was blown off by modern medical practitioners because the science to understand it is incomplete. Now that enough people like myself and you on behalf of your wife are out talking about it, the hope is that science will eventually catch up and figure out why this kind of thing happens
Last year I caught COVID twice. Both times I felt sick, I tested myself daily, and I was negative every time I swabbed my nostrils and nasopharynx. Both times, I started swabbing any yellow mucus that I expelled, and received the positive result that I expected.
> POTS. Standing up made my heart rate spike for no reason. This is a measurable phenomena for people who have autoimmune disorders called the tilt table test. Had this for months.
Same! I was diagnosed with syncope on standing. Every time I stood up from a reclining position, my heart would pound and the world would start fading to black. I too was referred to a cardiologist and had the tests performed. And it also cleared up for me but it took a long time (months).
That wasn't my only symptom. I am completely scientific also. I know about how SARS-CoV-2 binds to ACE-2 receptors, I know about how it lodges itself in multiple organs ... and the symptoms were real.
This was another one where I didn't even think "Covid" when I went to the doctor, but this all coincided with a recent Covid infection.
Same! I was diagnosed with syncope on standing. Every time I stood up from a reclining position, my heart would pound and the world would start fading to black. I too was referred to a cardiologist and had the tests performed. And it also cleared up for me but it took a long time (months).
That wasn't my only symptom. I am completely scientific also. I know about how SARS-CoV-2 binds to ACE-2 receptors, I know about how it lodges itself in multiple organs ... and the symptoms were real.
This was another one where I didn't even think "Covid" when I went to the doctor, but this all coincided with a recent Covid infection.
> My conclusion after all this is that it’s autoimmune and that no one actually understands the mechanism which is why people who complain about this get dismissed.
Sicknesses caused by viruses are known to cause lingering "fatigue syndrome" in rare cases, so I'd be surprised if doctors would just flatly dismiss it. There probably is no such specific thing as "long covid", its just this syndrome that was always a thing.
Sicknesses caused by viruses are known to cause lingering "fatigue syndrome" in rare cases, so I'd be surprised if doctors would just flatly dismiss it. There probably is no such specific thing as "long covid", its just this syndrome that was always a thing.
Thank you for sharing your story. What people don’t realize is that long covid is a fate worse than death, and that’s not very well represented well in the statistics. So we look at the death statistics and say Covid really isn’t that scary. Wrong, it’s worse than that. I wouldn’t wish long covid on anyone (except long covid deniers).
Damn dude. What a ride. I did have those back stabbing pains and headaches like someone took a drill and pushed it agains the back of my head. Crazy outcome. These relatable stories hit very close. I can feel your pain. What made my brain fog go away was the timing and a session of adderall and mild exercise. 2020 was wild.
I too believe my long covid symptoms were an autoimmune issue. Read my HN post from 2021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26350951#26355878
Interesting that you reported leg/muscle pain, having a burning feeling in my leg was also one of the reasons I went to the ER that day thinking I had a blood clot.
Would it be possible that something else caused it, leading you to also have a more severe episode of COVID? Perhaps you had a preexisting undiagnosed immune disorder, which expressed itself during the COVID episode?
One of the main theories is that the Covid is hiding in areas of the body, and this of course will mess with your other immune responses.
I experienced something similar to OP. Took me around 12-18 months before I felt like the symptoms were abating.
I experienced something similar to OP. Took me around 12-18 months before I felt like the symptoms were abating.
Perhaps, there is a running theory that Covid activates latent Epstein-Barr Virus among other things. But as far as I know it’s just a glorified hypothesis with little scientific evidence to support it.
I wouldn’t even classify the actual covid episode I had as severe (and indeed, as far as I could tell from reading reports there doesn’t seem to be strong correlation between severity of illness and whether someone gets long covid or for how long). It was not bad enough to go to the hospital (though I did consider doing so a couple of times).
I don’t really get allergies or otherwise and consider myself to have a pretty normal immune system. I get sick at about the same rate as what you would expect a normal person to get sick. My health simply took a v shaped nosedive on a graph for 6 months after I got covid.
I wouldn’t even classify the actual covid episode I had as severe (and indeed, as far as I could tell from reading reports there doesn’t seem to be strong correlation between severity of illness and whether someone gets long covid or for how long). It was not bad enough to go to the hospital (though I did consider doing so a couple of times).
I don’t really get allergies or otherwise and consider myself to have a pretty normal immune system. I get sick at about the same rate as what you would expect a normal person to get sick. My health simply took a v shaped nosedive on a graph for 6 months after I got covid.
I've had similar symptoms for 7+ years now so it's most likely for life. Have seen many infectious disease specialists and CFS/ME is the diagnosis (same as long-covid). Mine seems to have been triggered by Glandular Fever (Epstein Barr Virus).
Exertion is the biggest trigger for me, but also the prescribed cure (Gradual Exercise Therapy). Alcohol is a weird one, I often feel better with a hangover than I do on a bad fatigue day (immuno-suppressant?) but then way worse the days after. I also have recurring Mononucleosis symptoms and have tried anti-virals to no avail...
It's so obviously immuno-related, really hope the science progresses soon.
Some interesting articles: https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/what-happens-when-you-dont... https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/12/health/ron-davis-covid-lo...
Exertion is the biggest trigger for me, but also the prescribed cure (Gradual Exercise Therapy). Alcohol is a weird one, I often feel better with a hangover than I do on a bad fatigue day (immuno-suppressant?) but then way worse the days after. I also have recurring Mononucleosis symptoms and have tried anti-virals to no avail...
It's so obviously immuno-related, really hope the science progresses soon.
Some interesting articles: https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/what-happens-when-you-dont... https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/12/health/ron-davis-covid-lo...
for those reading, GET is not a/the prescribed cure for mecfs, its contraindicated and is no longer broadly recommended (after a lot of controversy). It was once adopted as a recommendation but its the product of faulty science and a medical system that found the disease inconvenient and largely didn't want to treat/believe it
really sorry you're dealing w mecfs insaider, i feel your pain
really sorry you're dealing w mecfs insaider, i feel your pain
Recently read an article suggesting that we should drop the term Long Covid, as it implies that there is something unique about it, when the research seems to show that the impairment post-Covid is very similar to that from Influenza:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/15/long-covid-s...
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/15/long-covid-s...
That might make a case for replacing the name but not eliminating it. Eliminating it would be akin to removing the name "stomach cancer" because other cells can also become cancerous.
You need a name for things. And long flu might have different etiology than long covid despite similar symptoms, so it doesn't make sense to lump them together as "long virus".
You need a name for things. And long flu might have different etiology than long covid despite similar symptoms, so it doesn't make sense to lump them together as "long virus".
I think replacing it is the way to go. It's important to differentiate between the acute symptoms of COVID and the chronic, persistent long-term symptoms, even if they both emanate from the effects of the SARS-CoV-2 virus on the body. It will be helpful for research, treatment, and the general understanding of physicians, mental health practitioners in the general public.
I think there's precedent for such a decision in how concussions are generally viewed. An individual can be diagnosed with a concussion, which has common, acute symptoms. If the acute symptoms last longer than is typical for a concussion of a given severity, the individual could be diagnosed with persistent post-concussive symptoms (a.k.a. post-concussion syndrome). Of course brain injuries are different than viral infections, and we still have a ton to learn about brain injuries, but it's the idea of clearly differentiating between the acute effects and the chronic, persistent long-term effects.
To be clear, I'm not trying to relate COVID with concussions beyond the medical nomenclature, but I think the nomenclature is effective in making the distinction to which I'm referring. It's not perfect, but we'll never have perfection in research.
Edit: It's unclear if the paragraph breaks are displaying properly, so I apologize if it appears as a wall of text.
I think there's precedent for such a decision in how concussions are generally viewed. An individual can be diagnosed with a concussion, which has common, acute symptoms. If the acute symptoms last longer than is typical for a concussion of a given severity, the individual could be diagnosed with persistent post-concussive symptoms (a.k.a. post-concussion syndrome). Of course brain injuries are different than viral infections, and we still have a ton to learn about brain injuries, but it's the idea of clearly differentiating between the acute effects and the chronic, persistent long-term effects.
To be clear, I'm not trying to relate COVID with concussions beyond the medical nomenclature, but I think the nomenclature is effective in making the distinction to which I'm referring. It's not perfect, but we'll never have perfection in research.
Edit: It's unclear if the paragraph breaks are displaying properly, so I apologize if it appears as a wall of text.
>post-concussion syndrome
Isn't that akin to "long covid"? No one mistakes post-concussion syndrome for a concussion, and no one mistakes long covid for an acute infection.
We do have a formal name for long covid: PASC (Post-Acute-Sequaelae of Covid)
It won't catch on a regular name because it's unpronounceable, but it there for the scientific literature and those who wish to speak formally.
I'm open to there being a better way, but ultimately you need something people can refer to, as it is a common phenomenon.
Isn't that akin to "long covid"? No one mistakes post-concussion syndrome for a concussion, and no one mistakes long covid for an acute infection.
We do have a formal name for long covid: PASC (Post-Acute-Sequaelae of Covid)
It won't catch on a regular name because it's unpronounceable, but it there for the scientific literature and those who wish to speak formally.
I'm open to there being a better way, but ultimately you need something people can refer to, as it is a common phenomenon.
Instead of wanting people to ignore Long Covid wouldn't it be better to make people more aware of Long Flu?
We have enough people self diagnosing wrongly already.
[deleted]
This Medscape article summarizes research on the issue with greater clinical detail. Post infection symptoms appear to depend more on the severity of the infection rather than the particular virus involved.
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/993373
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/993373
Given how poorly-understood post-viral stuff is _in general_, lumping them together at this point feels extremely premature.
Are you saying that influenza also results in the findings of the article I posted, that the blood brain barrier breaks down? If not, then I don't know why you'd say it isn't distinct unless you're just commenting without reading. Your linked article does not address the OP article's findings.
When you look at the Epstein-Barr virus we call the result of the infection all kinds of syndromes.
Personally I had Long Epstein-Barr for almost a year. So I know it's no joke.
Most virus infections can cause long term problems.
Personally I had Long Epstein-Barr for almost a year. So I know it's no joke.
Most virus infections can cause long term problems.
> Most virus infections can cause long term problems.
This is very, very false. Your body is currently fighting off a very large number of virus and bacterial infections. Most are innocuous, and don't even raise the symptoms of a cold.
Now, going out on more of a limb and moving into speculation:
There is a tiny minority of diseases -- most very new and poorly-understood -- which do this.
There's some evidence that prior to around 10,000 BC -- the rise of civilization -- very few diseases like this existed. What appears to have changed was that with civilization -- and now with population density and travel -- diseases can co-evolve with humans, and integrate into our various chemical signalling pathways. Things like Covid or AIDS can explicitly target our immune system, for example, to try to avoid being caught.
* Prior to civilization, a successful disease had to work across a broad range of species.
* When the population was a fraction of what it is today, there was less opportunity for disease to evolve.
* Without travel, there was less opportunity for spread (and for crosstalk between viruses)
... and so on.
These relatively new diseases can cause long-term problems. There's a lot of them, and it's not always the same ones as cause acute symptoms!
This is very, very false. Your body is currently fighting off a very large number of virus and bacterial infections. Most are innocuous, and don't even raise the symptoms of a cold.
Now, going out on more of a limb and moving into speculation:
There is a tiny minority of diseases -- most very new and poorly-understood -- which do this.
There's some evidence that prior to around 10,000 BC -- the rise of civilization -- very few diseases like this existed. What appears to have changed was that with civilization -- and now with population density and travel -- diseases can co-evolve with humans, and integrate into our various chemical signalling pathways. Things like Covid or AIDS can explicitly target our immune system, for example, to try to avoid being caught.
* Prior to civilization, a successful disease had to work across a broad range of species.
* When the population was a fraction of what it is today, there was less opportunity for disease to evolve.
* Without travel, there was less opportunity for spread (and for crosstalk between viruses)
... and so on.
These relatively new diseases can cause long-term problems. There's a lot of them, and it's not always the same ones as cause acute symptoms!
Fundamentally, prior to civilization there was not a sustainable host population for human diseases. Anything that could only target humans would quickly burn out as everyone around would either be dead or resistant from prior infection.
As our population grew and contact grew there were enough people around that a disease could sweep through a population then go elsewhere while a new generation grew up to be vulnerable when it finally came back.
Even with that, though, most of our disease are minor variants on stuff from the animal world. Covid appears to be simply the latest iteration of something that has periodically spilled into the human population in the past--except with the extremely nasty trait of asymptomatic spread. HIV is simply a minor variant on the already-existing SIV. It learned to target the immune system long before it targeted humans.
As our population grew and contact grew there were enough people around that a disease could sweep through a population then go elsewhere while a new generation grew up to be vulnerable when it finally came back.
Even with that, though, most of our disease are minor variants on stuff from the animal world. Covid appears to be simply the latest iteration of something that has periodically spilled into the human population in the past--except with the extremely nasty trait of asymptomatic spread. HIV is simply a minor variant on the already-existing SIV. It learned to target the immune system long before it targeted humans.
Herpes virus at least has been infecting humans since long before the rise of civilization. Once a person is infected they can remain a contagious carrier for life, so there's plenty of opportunity to spread it even with lower population density.
https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msu185
https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msu185
How did you diagnose you had Long Epstein-Barr?
Not the parent but speaking from (multiple) EB occurances, you can get a mono spot test if it's suspected. My last rodeo, it took excluding hepABC, AIDS, cytomegalovirus, and finally a mono spot (along with liver enzymes testing 2x a week for the month I was bedridden...)
You could read https://theconversation.com/why-scrapping-the-term-long-covi... which meets these claims head on and highlights why the research is faulty. The Guardian published https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/15/long-covid-sym... as well which is more truthful.
And of course, if you had not relied on a politically motivated, faulty, non-peer reviewed study you would find the following problems caused by Long Covid:
viral persistence https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-023-01601-2
Microclots in the blood and endothelial dysfunction (leading to vascular problems, organ failure, cardiac events) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8883497/
Immune system dysregulation https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adg7942
Mitochondrial damage https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240104/Study-identifies-...
And finally yes, blood-brain barrier disruption https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-024-01576-9
And of course, if you had not relied on a politically motivated, faulty, non-peer reviewed study you would find the following problems caused by Long Covid:
viral persistence https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-023-01601-2
Microclots in the blood and endothelial dysfunction (leading to vascular problems, organ failure, cardiac events) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8883497/
Immune system dysregulation https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adg7942
Mitochondrial damage https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240104/Study-identifies-...
And finally yes, blood-brain barrier disruption https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-024-01576-9
Thanks for pointing those out. Note I don't really have an opinion either way, just reporting the study.
The next thing you need to read is How the press manufactured consent for never-ending COVID reinfections https://www.thegauntlet.news/p/how-the-press-manufactured-co...
and then stop spreading harmful propaganda. That's what you are doing, not "reporting a study", faugh!
and then stop spreading harmful propaganda. That's what you are doing, not "reporting a study", faugh!
Flu like or not, long convid is a collection of many different syndrome.
It need to be more specific to be useful.
It need to be more specific to be useful.
Alternatively, you could view ( flu, colds, covid etc.) it to be the same syndrome with several facets and diversities.
Experts react: https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/expert-reaction-long-covid-m...
> It is because of these specific factors as well as inherent limitations of the study methodology itself, that their conclusion that it is “time to stop using terms like ‘long COVID’” is overstated and potentially unhelpful. Long COVID has been a global phenomenon, recognised by WHO.
> Unfortunately, this question cannot be simply answered in this work. The study is observational, based on reported symptoms with no physiological or detailed functional follow-up data. Without laboratory pathophysiological assessment of individual patients, it is impossible to say that this is indistinguishable from flu-related or any other post-viral syndrome.
Of course, every 'puchy-headline' paper deserves to be considered on its own merits, but perhaps read the paper not an article about the paper if you want to take it as 'The Truth'.
"Long covid is not a thing" plays into the "Covid is not a thing" conspiracy theory; it's probably a harmful trope, rather than meaningfully helpful for the people suffering symptoms.
There is universal agreement the symptoms are real.
It's unclear what benefit using a different name for it offers.
> It is because of these specific factors as well as inherent limitations of the study methodology itself, that their conclusion that it is “time to stop using terms like ‘long COVID’” is overstated and potentially unhelpful. Long COVID has been a global phenomenon, recognised by WHO.
> Unfortunately, this question cannot be simply answered in this work. The study is observational, based on reported symptoms with no physiological or detailed functional follow-up data. Without laboratory pathophysiological assessment of individual patients, it is impossible to say that this is indistinguishable from flu-related or any other post-viral syndrome.
Of course, every 'puchy-headline' paper deserves to be considered on its own merits, but perhaps read the paper not an article about the paper if you want to take it as 'The Truth'.
"Long covid is not a thing" plays into the "Covid is not a thing" conspiracy theory; it's probably a harmful trope, rather than meaningfully helpful for the people suffering symptoms.
There is universal agreement the symptoms are real.
It's unclear what benefit using a different name for it offers.
> "Long covid is not a thing" plays into the "Covid is not a thing" conspiracy theory; it's probably a harmful trope, rather than meaningfully helpful for the people suffering symptoms.
That something plays into a harmful trope doesn’t speak to its veracity though, and diminishing smaller inconvenient truths so as to not lead people astray in my opinion exacerbates rather than diminishes conspiracy theories.
Could probably have prevented a lot of wasted time, money, and endless internet arguments by saying something early on like “ivermectin, which humans are regularly prescribed, does look promising for treating Covid, but only at dosages that are very toxic to humans, or in populations that might have parasites, as a result of curing those parasites”, instead of the “lol it’s only for horses!” stuff, or by clearly stating “lab leak is possible, and not the same thing as an intentionally man-made bioweapon unleashed by Chinese people”.
That something plays into a harmful trope doesn’t speak to its veracity though, and diminishing smaller inconvenient truths so as to not lead people astray in my opinion exacerbates rather than diminishes conspiracy theories.
Could probably have prevented a lot of wasted time, money, and endless internet arguments by saying something early on like “ivermectin, which humans are regularly prescribed, does look promising for treating Covid, but only at dosages that are very toxic to humans, or in populations that might have parasites, as a result of curing those parasites”, instead of the “lol it’s only for horses!” stuff, or by clearly stating “lab leak is possible, and not the same thing as an intentionally man-made bioweapon unleashed by Chinese people”.
If the potential effect of a message is rather harmful, it's reasonable to hold the veracity of that message to a higher standard of scrutiny than if a message is benign.
This wasn't a good study, scientifically. Scrutiny was not applied before reporting on it, and now we have a harm on our hands. The fact that we're discussing it attests to that, since its a sideshow leeching attention away from the main topic of long covid's effects.
Agree that public messaging could have and should be a lot better on the topics you mentioned, but disagree that harm should not be at least a part of the calculus.
This wasn't a good study, scientifically. Scrutiny was not applied before reporting on it, and now we have a harm on our hands. The fact that we're discussing it attests to that, since its a sideshow leeching attention away from the main topic of long covid's effects.
Agree that public messaging could have and should be a lot better on the topics you mentioned, but disagree that harm should not be at least a part of the calculus.
Who decides on what is harmful vs what is benign?
This question can be be applied to almost anything and only serves to pointlessly redirect discussion ("sealioning") - "don't write code with bugs" "oh? Who decides what is a bug and what is intended behaviour?" - "don't take candy from babies" "who decides at which age you turn from a baby into a toddler?"
Your last paragraph makes no sense to me.
There were plenty of places which published long, complex, nuanced data and explanations about ivermectin.
But lots of people are unable to understand complex writing or statistics. And most people have little understanding of biology, medicine or disease. This led to widespread misinformation, which in turn led people to try to simplify out all the complexity, and trim it down to basic things like "ivermectin doesn't work" and "don't take horse medicine when your doctor refuses to prescribe ivermectin to you".
The messaging you think would have "prevented a lot of wasted time" was exactly the messaging in the medical reports that started the whole problem. Dumbing it down was a response to the "internet arguments".
There were plenty of places which published long, complex, nuanced data and explanations about ivermectin.
But lots of people are unable to understand complex writing or statistics. And most people have little understanding of biology, medicine or disease. This led to widespread misinformation, which in turn led people to try to simplify out all the complexity, and trim it down to basic things like "ivermectin doesn't work" and "don't take horse medicine when your doctor refuses to prescribe ivermectin to you".
The messaging you think would have "prevented a lot of wasted time" was exactly the messaging in the medical reports that started the whole problem. Dumbing it down was a response to the "internet arguments".
I am saying there’s a middle-ground between “long, complex, nuanced” and “ivermectin doesn’t work”, which is useful because as you point out, most people can’t understand the former, but are able to understand abstracts of papers that suggest ivermectin does work, and wonder why they’re being told it doesn’t. Likewise telling people that entertaining the thought that a coronavirus escaped from a lab — in a city that has a lab that studies them — is ridiculous and racist simply opens a huge space for conspiracy peddlers who wonder out-loud and with reasonable justification why this is being dismissed without any nuance at all.
Dumbing a message down to contain no nuance — in my opinion — opens up the floor for quacks who will be exploit the lack of nuance on their podcasts.
Dumbing a message down to contain no nuance — in my opinion — opens up the floor for quacks who will be exploit the lack of nuance on their podcasts.
Minimizing the impact of COVID has a long and ugly history for such a young virus. One paper contradicting every other source so far certainly shouldn’t be accepted as gospel.
I think the point here is that we don't know either way, so maybe we shouldn't attribute it all specifically to COVID. When we were told to act like hypochondriacs for a year or 2, it shifted behavior.
COVID was the devil virus and people were attributing many things to it. And since there is no diagnostic test for "long COVID", we are sorta just guessing everywhere here.
COVID was the devil virus and people were attributing many things to it. And since there is no diagnostic test for "long COVID", we are sorta just guessing everywhere here.
You may not know either way but the scientific community absolutely does. Over 350,000 papers published here referencing long covid specifically and growing: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/research/coronavirus/
SARS-CoV-2 not only infects the brain it continues to replicate inside neurons. Evidence of this featured just days ago: https://x.com/danibeckman/status/1769569843760763120
The silver lining of long Covid research is that much of it may be applicable to other diseases or ailments: https://bessstillman.substack.com/p/the-unexpected-gift-of-c...
And, while it's unlikely a cure will be found for people currently affected, if we're lucky we can probably do something to help the next generation avoid the same issues.
When I was younger I never understood the old saw about mathematicians doing their best work in their 20s, or other similar observations .... I thought it was strange, since being older means you had more time to get more experience.
Now after experiencing the pandemic... I suspect a small part of the reason for things like this maybe is they younger you are, the less chance you've had the misfortune to experience some infection or another that left you with some mild mental impairment -- including perhaps impairments so small that no individual would notice it in themselves, but in the statistical aggregate, it has an impact.
As far as knowledge and wisdom go, older is better. But raw intelligence or processing power, or most of all, the one that really seems to impact everything -- working set size! -- maybe every year is only ever one more chance to get worse, and never to get better?
Now after experiencing the pandemic... I suspect a small part of the reason for things like this maybe is they younger you are, the less chance you've had the misfortune to experience some infection or another that left you with some mild mental impairment -- including perhaps impairments so small that no individual would notice it in themselves, but in the statistical aggregate, it has an impact.
As far as knowledge and wisdom go, older is better. But raw intelligence or processing power, or most of all, the one that really seems to impact everything -- working set size! -- maybe every year is only ever one more chance to get worse, and never to get better?
Long COVID is horrible. I have had it for three years. I follow the research quite closely and wrote a book about what we know about it, how it affects someone and their health, and some observations on how absurd of a condition it is from the lens of someone struggling with it.
Here’s a free digital copy if anyone wants to read it: https://jondouglas.dev/longhaul
Here’s a free digital copy if anyone wants to read it: https://jondouglas.dev/longhaul
Thank you. I have it too and having something to reference is invaluable.
Ugh, so sorry to hear that. I'm an email away if you ever want to chat about it.
Leaky blood brain barrier does not bode well for the future, especially with mass and repeated infections. This is associated with Alzheimer’s, dementia, and other neurodegenerstive disorders:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrneurol.2017.188
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrneurol.2017.188
Wow that's terrible. Well.. science has major incentive to find cures now. How many have long covid? Or maybe even subclinical long covid that may silently boost Alzheimer's risk?
On a more positive note, they recently found that there is some sort of frequency that may enhance / trigger the natural junk clearance mechanisms that go on during sleep.
On a more positive note, they recently found that there is some sort of frequency that may enhance / trigger the natural junk clearance mechanisms that go on during sleep.
"..recently found that there is some sort of frequency that may enhance / trigger the natural junk clearance mechanisms that go on during sleep.'
I believe you are referencing [0], where scientists discovered that in mouse models the naturally occurring brainwaves generated during sleep help clean up extra cellular 'junk' in the brain via the glymphatic system.
It has been known since 2012 that the glymphatic system (which was discovered around that time) was a mechanism for cleaning the brain. And even back then there was speculation around if Alzheimer patients had some kind of damage to this system which caused the build up of amyloid proteins.
I have yet to see any research conducted on figuring that out (but it may exist).
[0] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816616
I believe you are referencing [0], where scientists discovered that in mouse models the naturally occurring brainwaves generated during sleep help clean up extra cellular 'junk' in the brain via the glymphatic system.
It has been known since 2012 that the glymphatic system (which was discovered around that time) was a mechanism for cleaning the brain. And even back then there was speculation around if Alzheimer patients had some kind of damage to this system which caused the build up of amyloid proteins.
I have yet to see any research conducted on figuring that out (but it may exist).
[0] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816616
As far as I'm concerned the data has for a long time said that Covid typically causes lasting damage, it's just that for most people it's at a subclinical level.
If this were not the case why do we see rising odds for Long Covid with repeated infections? If there's no lasting damage and it's facing a more tuned-in immune system the expected result would be a lower incidence.
And we see athletes with higher rates of Long Covid than the population at large. Or do we? That could also be explained by athletes being more aware of where their limits are and are used to pushing themselves to those limits--hence they are more aware of impairment.
If this were not the case why do we see rising odds for Long Covid with repeated infections? If there's no lasting damage and it's facing a more tuned-in immune system the expected result would be a lower incidence.
And we see athletes with higher rates of Long Covid than the population at large. Or do we? That could also be explained by athletes being more aware of where their limits are and are used to pushing themselves to those limits--hence they are more aware of impairment.
Even with this news, several in this thread are repeating that it's nothing special compared with influenza. People have turned off their minds to listen to culture war nonsense
For me, it's like the volume of my inner voice is decreased, and no sign of recovery after 2 years, though no significant cognitive function decline can be observed.
Your comment just made me realize this has happened to me. I used to have lively conversations in my head and they're very muted now. I've also been dealing with brain fog since getting COVID.
Just curious: Do you spend much time reading news, watching podcasts, or YouTube videos? I've noticed a similar thing in myself and I'm not sure if it's due to COVID or if it's because of this news addition.
I'm fascinated by people's inner monologues (I don't have one), so forgive my curiosity: is what you describe a bad thing? Have you noticed changes in your patterns of reasoning?
And I am fascinated by people _not_ having inner monologues, as I do have a very active inner voice. For me having inner voice is like one part of me does the talking, the other does the listening. If other people could listen, they would probably say that I'm a crazy dude, doing all that talk. When I see people talking loud, I call them crazy, thank god I do not project my voice outwards!
But sometimes, things come to my mind without talking at all, and it is usually more profound things, or things that trigger a more profound emotion. Regarding self-knowledge or when doing introspection, I confess that having a inner monologue is not effective at all, at least to me.
Can I ask how you "work" mentally? For instance, supposing you're a software developer, how do you go thorough learning a new thing about a programming language? I usually talk to myself things like "suppose I do this here, and..". It is like I am pair-programming with the other half of my brain.
Hope you don't mind me asking! Is just curiosity (and the fact that the inner monologue sometimes may do more harm than good)..
But sometimes, things come to my mind without talking at all, and it is usually more profound things, or things that trigger a more profound emotion. Regarding self-knowledge or when doing introspection, I confess that having a inner monologue is not effective at all, at least to me.
Can I ask how you "work" mentally? For instance, supposing you're a software developer, how do you go thorough learning a new thing about a programming language? I usually talk to myself things like "suppose I do this here, and..". It is like I am pair-programming with the other half of my brain.
Hope you don't mind me asking! Is just curiosity (and the fact that the inner monologue sometimes may do more harm than good)..
Of course, happy to discuss. You have me stumped though, I actually can't articulate how I work. If what I'm doing requires extreme care, such as pushing configuration updates to production, I will mentally say out loud what I'm planning to do (probably something similar to [0]), but calling that voice is a conscious effort. Normally I'll follow a vague "feeling" of what needs to happen. I think my mind works directly with abstract concepts or mental representations of what I'm focusing on.
> "suppose I do this here, and.."
Sure, I will follow the same pattern, but the drive to fiddle with something bubbles up from some abstract place. Words don't even come into play.
Do you also subvocalize when reading text?
This topic is a fickle beast. The only baseline I have is my own cognition -- I can't say "yeah it's like what you're doing only..." -- I am fundamentally unable to experience your way of thinking. We are blobs of fat oxymoronically trying to explain our subjective experience in an objective way through our 2nd languages (lossy doesn't even beign to describe it). It's absurd but oh so fascinating.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling
> "suppose I do this here, and.."
Sure, I will follow the same pattern, but the drive to fiddle with something bubbles up from some abstract place. Words don't even come into play.
Do you also subvocalize when reading text?
This topic is a fickle beast. The only baseline I have is my own cognition -- I can't say "yeah it's like what you're doing only..." -- I am fundamentally unable to experience your way of thinking. We are blobs of fat oxymoronically trying to explain our subjective experience in an objective way through our 2nd languages (lossy doesn't even beign to describe it). It's absurd but oh so fascinating.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling
> If what I'm doing requires extreme care, such as pushing configuration updates to production, I will mentally say out loud what I'm planning to do (probably something similar to [0]), but calling that voice is a conscious effort.
Yes, mentally say out loud is what I'm talking about. And sometimes it's a conscious effort as well, definitely. But it doesn't require much effort from my part. Well, it requires so little effort, that sometimes I catch my mind talking to itself, without the other part really listening. So, sometimes it is not a conscious effort. My reasoning is that maybe some of the thoughts seem to trigger some part of the brain that is used for vocabulary, and they express themselves "vocally" (but without any sound)..
> Do you also subvocalize when reading text?
When reading text, and now by replying to you. English is not my native language, so I must "vocalize" the words internally, and then write them as they "sound" in my brain. I've been doing this for such a long time that is feels quite natural to me. And when I'm less rusty (specially when talking), I tend to skip the "inner" voice and project directly to the "outer" voice. But it only happens when I'm having lots of conversations in English. I haven't been writing or talking in EN too much lately, so I have to use my inner voice as intermediate step. As for reading, most of the time I read using my "inner" voice, both for English as for Portuguese (which is my native language).
Yes, mentally say out loud is what I'm talking about. And sometimes it's a conscious effort as well, definitely. But it doesn't require much effort from my part. Well, it requires so little effort, that sometimes I catch my mind talking to itself, without the other part really listening. So, sometimes it is not a conscious effort. My reasoning is that maybe some of the thoughts seem to trigger some part of the brain that is used for vocabulary, and they express themselves "vocally" (but without any sound)..
> Do you also subvocalize when reading text?
When reading text, and now by replying to you. English is not my native language, so I must "vocalize" the words internally, and then write them as they "sound" in my brain. I've been doing this for such a long time that is feels quite natural to me. And when I'm less rusty (specially when talking), I tend to skip the "inner" voice and project directly to the "outer" voice. But it only happens when I'm having lots of conversations in English. I haven't been writing or talking in EN too much lately, so I have to use my inner voice as intermediate step. As for reading, most of the time I read using my "inner" voice, both for English as for Portuguese (which is my native language).
Wait, you have no "inner voice" at all?
I don't understand. Thought experiment:
You go to a wall and there is a picture hanging on the wall. You like the picture. Can you "say" in your head without using your voice/mouth "I like this picture"?
If you have to use your voice, can you mimic the tongue movement without moving your mouth and "hear" the words without making a sound?
I don't understand. Thought experiment:
You go to a wall and there is a picture hanging on the wall. You like the picture. Can you "say" in your head without using your voice/mouth "I like this picture"?
If you have to use your voice, can you mimic the tongue movement without moving your mouth and "hear" the words without making a sound?
I can conjure up a voice in my head and make it say anything I want, such as "I like this picture", but it's a contrived and unnatural thing for me to do. It takes effort and "takes over" my whole brain. If a picture on the wall catches my eye, I will just enjoy it. Maybe that's why I struggle to answer "oh, what do you like about this picture?", because nothing about my experience had any relation to words at all.
I normally don't talk very much, maybe that's why? Maybe my though process is further removed from language than that of most other people?
I normally don't talk very much, maybe that's why? Maybe my though process is further removed from language than that of most other people?
For me it's like my head has a large cluster of art that I've seen, all organized. It is the "memory palace" basically, if you've heard of that approach to memorizing things. Except my memory palace is very, very large, and it has an area for art that I've seen.
If I appreciate a piece of art then it goes into my memory palace collection in a room that groups it together with other similar pieces of art that I had a similar appreciation for. As I appreciate the piece of art my memory palace branches out from there in many directions. I'm recalling other similar pieces of art (how does this art rank compared to other pieces I've appreciated). I'm recalling other pieces of art by the same artist (how did this art compare to their other works). I'm recalling similar artists of the time period (how did this work compare to art by contemporary artists). I'm imagining the techniques that were used to make the art, whether dramatic and physical (splashes of paint in a modern art piece) or precise and delicate (such as the fine brush strokes). This is the process of appreciation I feel.
Basically, the "I like this picture" is a very visual experience for me, not a vocal experience at all. If I did not like the picture then I just look at it, have an internal feeling of "meh" or "boredom" and do not put any effort into memorization or related recall and connectivity of the memory.
If I appreciate a piece of art then it goes into my memory palace collection in a room that groups it together with other similar pieces of art that I had a similar appreciation for. As I appreciate the piece of art my memory palace branches out from there in many directions. I'm recalling other similar pieces of art (how does this art rank compared to other pieces I've appreciated). I'm recalling other pieces of art by the same artist (how did this art compare to their other works). I'm recalling similar artists of the time period (how did this work compare to art by contemporary artists). I'm imagining the techniques that were used to make the art, whether dramatic and physical (splashes of paint in a modern art piece) or precise and delicate (such as the fine brush strokes). This is the process of appreciation I feel.
Basically, the "I like this picture" is a very visual experience for me, not a vocal experience at all. If I did not like the picture then I just look at it, have an internal feeling of "meh" or "boredom" and do not put any effort into memorization or related recall and connectivity of the memory.
For me my internal monologue is replaced by almost entirely images. For example, if I'm learning about something in a programming language I'm mentally diagramming components and imagining how data structures are laid out as a network of items. To the extent that I do verbal thinking while programming it's usually just a internal vocalization for an interjection I would otherwise be tempted to say out loud like "why the fuck is this not working, this SDK is trash". And I only say it to myself internally so as not to interrupt other people around me.
For other things that are less abstract, with a concrete real world appearance, I'm constantly visualizing the outcome like I'm looking at a picture or watching a movie. This also applies to the "things that come to my mind without talking", which you mention. They drift into appearance in my mind as images as well.
For other things that are less abstract, with a concrete real world appearance, I'm constantly visualizing the outcome like I'm looking at a picture or watching a movie. This also applies to the "things that come to my mind without talking", which you mention. They drift into appearance in my mind as images as well.
No, not much. It may make you feel foggy for a while, but when you get used to or just ignore it, nothing actually changed. My understanding is inner monologue is just some side effect rather than necessary part of thought.
It's one of several mechanisms that might be causing damage. Here's a summary description with research citations:
https://whn.global/scientific/spectrum-of-covid-19-from-asym...
https://whn.global/scientific/spectrum-of-covid-19-from-asym...
The last para suggests that this is not reversible. But does anyone have any treatment options or supplements/nootropics to recommend?
This is a bit out there but I read some books on polyvagal theory that suggested I could induce the "rest & digest" state by leaning into and completing the "fight or flight" and "shutdown" states. There are many nervous system calming techniques that help e.g. rubbing my coat hanger area (if you draw a coat hanger between your neck and shoulders on the front & back), chanting om or making sighing noises, and taking long hot showers to name a few
Yoga nidra (sleep meditation) has been quite helpful.
What really helped is also performing nervous system calming techniques not only at rest, but slowly when I walk around as well when I was able. Got the idea from Becca Kennedy who just posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfZFtWx1YvM
The downside is that a lot of people are out to take your money when you read about this. I'm skeptical of brain retaining courses. I trust Deb Dana's books
Yoga nidra (sleep meditation) has been quite helpful.
What really helped is also performing nervous system calming techniques not only at rest, but slowly when I walk around as well when I was able. Got the idea from Becca Kennedy who just posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfZFtWx1YvM
The downside is that a lot of people are out to take your money when you read about this. I'm skeptical of brain retaining courses. I trust Deb Dana's books
Calming the sympathicus is one of the very few things that somewhat works for me. It helps to relax and get good sleep.
One technique I'll add to the list: skin massage (literally pinching it with your fingers) around the sympathicus area: along the lower ribs, up the sternum and into a V-shape around the neck (roughly following the collarbones). The nerve endings on the skin literally stimulate the sympathetic system, allowing it to "reset". I don't know the exact mechanism, but I can vouch for it actually working.
One technique I'll add to the list: skin massage (literally pinching it with your fingers) around the sympathicus area: along the lower ribs, up the sternum and into a V-shape around the neck (roughly following the collarbones). The nerve endings on the skin literally stimulate the sympathetic system, allowing it to "reset". I don't know the exact mechanism, but I can vouch for it actually working.
That's really interesting. Did you learn about this somewhere or was it more by yourself?
I learned about it from a physical therapist. This seems to be old knowledge that was somewhat widespread (in the german-speaking world at least), then discredited in modernity as medicine was looking to be more evidence-based, and is now making a slow comeback.
NB: I have nothing against evidence-based medicine. But our bodies are much weirder than the high modernists were willing to admit.
NB: I have nothing against evidence-based medicine. But our bodies are much weirder than the high modernists were willing to admit.
I wonder if the opposite works, heavy weight lifting?
Pushing heavy weights is very taxing on the nervous system and kicks it into gear to start the process of growth.
Pushing heavy weights is very taxing on the nervous system and kicks it into gear to start the process of growth.
I'd be careful with strenuous exercise, it may cause PEM. See comments below.
Vinpocetine is known to increase bloodflow to the brain, and it possesses neuroprotective effects.
"Vinpocetine, a derivative of the alkaloid vincamine, has been clinically used in many countries for treatment of cerebrovascular disorders such as stroke and dementia for more than 30 years. Currently, vinpocetine is also available in the market as a dietary supplement to enhance cognition and memory..."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766389/
"Vinpocetine, a derivative of the alkaloid vincamine, has been clinically used in many countries for treatment of cerebrovascular disorders such as stroke and dementia for more than 30 years. Currently, vinpocetine is also available in the market as a dietary supplement to enhance cognition and memory..."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5766389/
TMS, tdcs, Ritalin, abilfy, lamotrigine, ketamihe, b6, B12, egcg
I'm using something called "Sharpmind - Brain Formula" by Solaray. I don't have an hard-evidence that the ingredients are working against this particular issue, but I can say that it has made me feel a lot better/more present in my mind than I ever was post-infection. I have recommended it to a few others, one of which who has actually tried it and seems to feel similar to me about its effects.
NMN
Long Walks, Sleep, Ritalin :-)
Long walks and Ritalin can trigger PEM so I would be careful with those, for anyone reading
While my wife would love nothing more than long walks, her long covid still stops her from exercising - before covid she was down the gym 5 days a week and loves being outdoors.
There can be mitochondrial damage in some LC patients which will stop them being able to release energy the way they used to. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240104/Study-identifies-...
There can be mitochondrial damage in some LC patients which will stop them being able to release energy the way they used to. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240104/Study-identifies-...
Most experts on chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) would advise most CFS sufferers to avoid stimulants because they tend to make the fatigue worse (once the stimulant effects wear off).
And that has been my experience.
And that has been my experience.
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Perhaps then we should stop ignoring the potential effects of the ongoing airborne pandemic. But no, keep f*king around with COVID, and we keep finding out.
There is no ongoing pandemic. There is now an endemic virus that's part of the regular rotation of pathogens that cause colds and flu, and covid doesn't seem particularly more dangerous than the rest (NB: influenza can be very nasty too! I'm not minimizing the harm of covid).
The pandemic was a unique situation because the entire world population was immuno-naive to covid. This is no longer the case; we all get exposed dozens of times per year and keep our natural immunity up.
The pandemic was a unique situation because the entire world population was immuno-naive to covid. This is no longer the case; we all get exposed dozens of times per year and keep our natural immunity up.
the distinction between pandemic and endemic is political and typically related to “we don’t care to contain it”. It’s not related to immunity levels. The interesting thing is that it used to be citizens of poorer countries who would be fodder, now it’s also the richer ones which I think says something about the state of those countries and progress in general
I wouldn't say so much that we don't care to contain it, but that pandemic means it's sweeping over a population, endemic means it's simply always present in the population without major swings in prevalence. Impossible to contain because it's already everywhere.
‘impossible to’ doesn’t really fit into my idea of the HN crowd.
It’s cost/benefit and leaders took the ‘keep the graph going up and to the right next quarter’ approach to the long term risks.
Containment is of course possible, it would just take technology improvements for diagnostic tests and education and investment in air quality.
The calculation is that saving the years of ill health aren’t worth disrupting the status quo
Edit: What’s the difference between sweeping over and always present? Whether we test and report it in the news or not?
It’s cost/benefit and leaders took the ‘keep the graph going up and to the right next quarter’ approach to the long term risks.
Containment is of course possible, it would just take technology improvements for diagnostic tests and education and investment in air quality.
The calculation is that saving the years of ill health aren’t worth disrupting the status quo
Edit: What’s the difference between sweeping over and always present? Whether we test and report it in the news or not?
So it's possible, but not a single country in the world managed to do it, even with wide range of different political parties in power, alignment, economic systems, etc? Like if literally every single combination that we have of those things couldn't manage effective containment....Well I guess your claim is a bit unfalsifiable don't you think?
And the "chart goes" up is such a strawman, I'm sure there's no real life downside or long term risk to just shut down everything for (2) more weeks... but whatever. That's such a western mentality, that only comes with the privilege of not living in an economically ruined part of the world.
There's a reason why doomers and "zero COVID" proponents are usually in the vast majority white, privileged, urban residents. I'm sure some vague, very broad "long term risks" that we still haven't seen concretely outside of a tiny minority (even if hundreds of millions were infected) are more important than the actual, proven, repeated risks of "charts going down".
In a way there's an odd parallel with antivaxxers who love to claim that in just a little bit more we will see the long term risks that came with the vaccine lol
And the "chart goes" up is such a strawman, I'm sure there's no real life downside or long term risk to just shut down everything for (2) more weeks... but whatever. That's such a western mentality, that only comes with the privilege of not living in an economically ruined part of the world.
There's a reason why doomers and "zero COVID" proponents are usually in the vast majority white, privileged, urban residents. I'm sure some vague, very broad "long term risks" that we still haven't seen concretely outside of a tiny minority (even if hundreds of millions were infected) are more important than the actual, proven, repeated risks of "charts going down".
In a way there's an odd parallel with antivaxxers who love to claim that in just a little bit more we will see the long term risks that came with the vaccine lol
Human compliance isn't perfect. Without China-level enforcement all lockdowns were leaky. There's a point of can't.
Furthermore, Covid has animal hosts. Even if the would could cooperate on completely stamping it out it would soon jump back from some animal. We simply have to live with it, take what precautions you want in your personal life but there's no point in society at large doing so.
(I do, however, think that medical facilities should be mask-required. But I think they should have been pre-pandemic, also.)
Furthermore, Covid has animal hosts. Even if the would could cooperate on completely stamping it out it would soon jump back from some animal. We simply have to live with it, take what precautions you want in your personal life but there's no point in society at large doing so.
(I do, however, think that medical facilities should be mask-required. But I think they should have been pre-pandemic, also.)
Covid causes a lot more deaths and a lot more damage than the flu. The flu is simply unpleasant for the vast majority of those who are otherwise reasonably healthy. Covid is still doing lasting damage to such people.
The difference between a pandemic and an endemic is that we don't want to stop an endemic. The virus is the same; the effects are the same but more averaged out with fewer peaks and troughs; they are just as bad.
> is that we don't want to stop an endemic.
In my opinion, there's no significant levers left to push to affect infection rates much.
Of course, we should be doing everything reasonable we can to tamp down COVID (and the flu). But short of permanent quarantine or forcing anti-vaxxers to get vaccinated, I'm not sure what there's left to do.
(It would be nice if we could socially normalize and encourage wearing a mask when one feels slightly sick, too).
In my opinion, there's no significant levers left to push to affect infection rates much.
Of course, we should be doing everything reasonable we can to tamp down COVID (and the flu). But short of permanent quarantine or forcing anti-vaxxers to get vaccinated, I'm not sure what there's left to do.
(It would be nice if we could socially normalize and encourage wearing a mask when one feels slightly sick, too).
Don’t force people into offices, and solve a bit of the climate crisis too
Are you saying influenza and common cold also break down the blood brain barrier? Because that is what the new news is that the OP is about.
No, I'm saying that they also have a comparable rate of post-viral syndrome, and a comparable rate of severe cases. It is not clear at all at this point if covid will be able to do this much damage to the next generation (whose first exposure was as babies). Maybe this blood brain barrier thing is something that all viruses do if the immune system doesn't respond appropriately. I genuinely don't know.
No, this breakdown of the blood brain barrier is unique, which makes it curious to dismiss as "not more dangerous than the rest"
I had this, but not too badly.
I started taking a brain-support supplement and it has made a dramatic improvement. Kind of like my senses, reflexes, energy have all been enhanced basically back to what they were before I got infected with this crap.
Edit - I'll just say what I'm taking. It's called "Sharpmind - Brain Formula" by Solaray. I don't have any hard evidence, but I started feeling pretty close to the "before times" after a few days of taking it. ymmv
I started taking a brain-support supplement and it has made a dramatic improvement. Kind of like my senses, reflexes, energy have all been enhanced basically back to what they were before I got infected with this crap.
Edit - I'll just say what I'm taking. It's called "Sharpmind - Brain Formula" by Solaray. I don't have any hard evidence, but I started feeling pretty close to the "before times" after a few days of taking it. ymmv
i will never understand our civilization *** up priorities. we should have spent 100+ billion dollars solving this instead of on twitter and VR.
Instead, we had some people in positions of power pushing theories that COVID was a hoax because it was inconvenient for their businesses.
That would have been economically damaging: where's the profit in doing that, and how would that help people get back into offices and kids into schools so the adults can stay focused at work
If we wanted billions spent on public health we can't leave it to politicians and business leaders
If we wanted billions spent on public health we can't leave it to politicians and business leaders
Had brain fog in the first year.
One of the issues now
One of the issues now
is there a way to test for this?
I've had good success using cerebrolysin. Involves injecting yourself with pig brains though.
p1dda(1)
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ProDemoNo(3)
ETH_start(1)
Ah yes, leaky brain syndrome.
I called my doctor's office to schedule an appointment and when the receptionist asked what the appointment was for, I simply said "brain fog". I had no other way to describe it.
It was intense and disturbing. I often couldn't put cohererent thoughts together, I was constantly forgetting what I was doing, forgetting where I had just put something.
Over the coming weeks it slowly receded, but there's no doubt it is real.
I've had people dismiss it as "it's all in your mind". They're right on some level ... it was in my mind. But it was very real, and I have no doubt it was SARS-CoV-2 related due to the timing and sheer intensity of it.