VLC: App Stores Were a Mistake(twitter.com)
twitter.com
VLC: App Stores Were a Mistake
https://twitter.com/videolan/status/1771104206872555660
71 comments
An app I wrote has a single written review complaining about how it can’t read data from another app. I have no way to read data from that app, that’s not a thing I can do.
> And another tangential issue is how search in Google Play is a ridiculous mess lately. It would show you WhatsApp and some other popular apps for literally any search query, while not finding the app you're actually looking for, even if you enter its exact name.
I think this applies to any Google product's search these days. As a company that started with a business in search, it is quite ironic.
I think this applies to any Google product's search these days. As a company that started with a business in search, it is quite ironic.
> All those annoying, incessant popups to "rate your experience",
To be fair this is also a behaviour the stores could regulate. (If they cared at all...)
To be fair this is also a behaviour the stores could regulate. (If they cared at all...)
VLC is one of the most impressive pieces of software I've ever used. I still remember the time in school when an older kid showed me he could launch VLC from a usb stick, without "installing it" and play torrented movies on the machines in the computer lab, without admin rights or the ability to install codecs.
Runs everywhere, plays anything is not an understatement.
Runs everywhere, plays anything is not an understatement.
And don't forget all the money the founder refused to keep big corps out of it.
It's a unique piece of software.
It's a unique piece of software.
That's why the butthurt big tech companies hate it; it blows their bloated crapware out of the water, for free!
The text:
App Stores were a mistake. Currently, we cannot update VLC on Windows Store, and we cannot update VLC on Android Play Store, without reducing security or dropping a lot of users... For now, iOS App Store still allows us to ship for iOS9, but until when?
App Stores were a mistake. Currently, we cannot update VLC on Windows Store, and we cannot update VLC on Android Play Store, without reducing security or dropping a lot of users... For now, iOS App Store still allows us to ship for iOS9, but until when?
Would really love to know more details about their struggles on Android Play Store and Windows Store.
Edit:
Windows Store - https://twitter.com/videolan/status/1759688788232523788?ref_...
Android Play Store - https://twitter.com/videolan/status/1771102415279763909?ref_...
Edit:
Windows Store - https://twitter.com/videolan/status/1759688788232523788?ref_...
Android Play Store - https://twitter.com/videolan/status/1771102415279763909?ref_...
> With Play App Signing, Google manages and protects your app's signing key for you and uses it to sign optimized, distribution APKs that are generated from your app bundles
There is no meaning of having a private signing key if is not private. Why does Google need me to upload a private key if they are then free to use it on their own?
https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
There is no meaning of having a private signing key if is not private. Why does Google need me to upload a private key if they are then free to use it on their own?
https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
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Sure there is. You’re increasing the scope of the key to include a third party, but… it’s one that controls the OS, distribution channels, publishing platform, SDK, the tools used to publish APKs, even the device drivers on your phone.
If they want to maliciously modify the VLC apk, there isn’t anything you can do to stop them.
If they want to maliciously modify the VLC apk, there isn’t anything you can do to stop them.
I think we all understand why Google might have a need to sign the binaries themselves. The point is that if they are creating binaries it should be signed by Google using a key uploaded by me it is just unnecessary.
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For those who don't want to follow even more Twitter links: It looks like for Windows Store, they are unable to contact a human at Microsoft for technical help, and for Android Play, the store itself is insisting on obtaining their private signing keys and that they drop support for older API versions.
An important note about their Windows store issue: they've been trying to get help for two years now.
What specific technical things do they need help with? Being more clear than “we just need a human to talk to” is better.
Having submitted a number of “product breaking bug reports” through official channels while using a paid support incident, can confirm Kafkaesque and a multi year support process.
Oh, I can get a person to “respond” to a problem with a paid support incident. But the person responding is clearly hired only based on their ability to respond to an English email, once a week, with either, “thank you, I will forward that to our engineering team” or “thank you for your patience, our engineers are still looking into that issue.”
Severity, impact, paid support, none of that matters. Heck, it’s impossible to tell if it’s an actual person or just a sophisticated shell script.
Oh, I can get a person to “respond” to a problem with a paid support incident. But the person responding is clearly hired only based on their ability to respond to an English email, once a week, with either, “thank you, I will forward that to our engineering team” or “thank you for your patience, our engineers are still looking into that issue.”
Severity, impact, paid support, none of that matters. Heck, it’s impossible to tell if it’s an actual person or just a sophisticated shell script.
Yeah, that one is suspect.
At least on Android you can simply use another store or sideload the app itself directly. I love that about Android. I don't even have a Google account on my phone.
> App store were a mistake
Like most thing on the internet that are designed to make the end user's life easier while boiling the frog behind the scenes, centralizing control and taking away end user freedom.
Story as old as the world, if you think about it: relinquishing control and freedom in exchange for comfort and ease of life.
The list is endless (iOS, Android, App stores, Windows, censored search engines, YT ...).
Just yesterday there was a HN story about gitlab taking down the source code for some game emulator.
Exact same premises, exact same outcome: you can either be free or be lazy. You can't be both.
Like most thing on the internet that are designed to make the end user's life easier while boiling the frog behind the scenes, centralizing control and taking away end user freedom.
Story as old as the world, if you think about it: relinquishing control and freedom in exchange for comfort and ease of life.
The list is endless (iOS, Android, App stores, Windows, censored search engines, YT ...).
Just yesterday there was a HN story about gitlab taking down the source code for some game emulator.
Exact same premises, exact same outcome: you can either be free or be lazy. You can't be both.
Yes, my grandparents and parents, who barely had schooling and are not fluid in English are lazy because they have not spent their time learning the ins and outs of spotting malware.
They should have spent their time browsing the internet, reinstalling Windows over and over, and reading HN, hopefully learning the signals that can ensure they won’t have some program steal their login credentials to their bank accounts.
So lazy of them to do other things in life such as cooking, cleaning, raising a family, and building a business as immigrants in a foreign country.
They should have spent their time browsing the internet, reinstalling Windows over and over, and reading HN, hopefully learning the signals that can ensure they won’t have some program steal their login credentials to their bank accounts.
So lazy of them to do other things in life such as cooking, cleaning, raising a family, and building a business as immigrants in a foreign country.
This isn't a free or safe choose one scenario. As a platform owner Apple could offer a vetting service for known-safe popular applications, make those easy to install, and create a clear scare-screen when enabling installation from other sources, as well as management profile settings for disabling unvetted or 3rd party app installation all together. Then the only education anyone needs is to not install unvetted apps.
As a bonus, they could make the app curation system extendable, so other groups could run vetting programs. By default your device would only have Apple as a trusted vetter, but as part of a management profile or something you could also trust apps vetter by some security research group, or Epic, or Valve, or whoever. That way security isn't all-or-nothing.
And of course, if anything slips through and your layman user OKs all the warnings and installs a malicious app, it's still operating in a sandbox, and can't do much more harm than clicking a shady link and ending up on a scam website can.
As a bonus, they could make the app curation system extendable, so other groups could run vetting programs. By default your device would only have Apple as a trusted vetter, but as part of a management profile or something you could also trust apps vetter by some security research group, or Epic, or Valve, or whoever. That way security isn't all-or-nothing.
And of course, if anything slips through and your layman user OKs all the warnings and installs a malicious app, it's still operating in a sandbox, and can't do much more harm than clicking a shady link and ending up on a scam website can.
> This isn't a free or safe choose one scenario.
And yet the choose one scenario is the one that has worked best for me. My dad would fill up his Android phone with malware regardless of scare screens. The solution was simple, and allowed at least him and I to spend more time doing other things.
And yet the choose one scenario is the one that has worked best for me. My dad would fill up his Android phone with malware regardless of scare screens. The solution was simple, and allowed at least him and I to spend more time doing other things.
It is hard to believe anyone would manage to fill Android phone with malware without going out of their way to do so.
Google Play is the default app store. You have to enable installing from other sources.
Google Play then still gets to inspect the app and warn you about possible malware.
Of course you can disable all the safety feature and only use 3rd party stores...but you have to go out of your way to do that. If person has done that without knowing what they are doing then they will probably fall for the first, second and 10,000th phishing email or phone call and there is nothing anyone can do to protect them.
You can fill your phone with malware without ever leaving the Play Store. Similar is true of the App Store, with the caveat that at least hostile iOS apps can't replace your homescreen.
In the scenario I described, equivalent action would be to set up a device policy for him that disables installing untrusted apps. You wouldn't even need to have bought him a new phone!
Actually, probably lazy :) I know grandparents who actually try to learn IT stuff.
Sure, classify them as lazy. I’ll prefer to recommend the older people in my family to use iPads and iPhones, and they can spend the time they are not learning IT stuff to do things they are already good at or want to do.
You can both do things you love and learn the stuff this world is currently made of.
There are 24 hours in a day, and a limited number of days to live. Everyone makes tradeoffs. Between now and the time my parents die, there is zero value add on them spending time on how to navigate malware.
Just like I how don’t spend my time learning how to fix a tractor that my grandpa knows how to fix.
Just like I how don’t spend my time learning how to fix a tractor that my grandpa knows how to fix.
> there is zero value add on them spending time on how to navigate malware.
What about not having to deal with malware?
What about not having to deal with malware?
> you can either be free or be lazy. You can't be both.
Absolutes and dichotomies make appealing phrasings, but rarely in life is anything that cut and dry.
Absolutes and dichotomies make appealing phrasings, but rarely in life is anything that cut and dry.
I think it would be fair to say: there's (often) a trade off between freedom and laziness. From there it follows that, in such situations, you cannot be both maximally free and maximally lazy.
Regarding what? People a hundred years ago would say that we are all lazy because we have robotic vacuums and dishwashers and we spend most of our lives on our ass.
Everything is a matter of perspective, and that's why neat sounding phrases that try and distill complicated things into if else statements are misleading.
Everything is a matter of perspective, and that's why neat sounding phrases that try and distill complicated things into if else statements are misleading.
Whatever it is, I’m pretty sure it all takes hard work/effort.
Which App Store would we say is the “open” one? I don’t know that one truly exists.. and I feel confident it would be hard work to make such a thing (but it might be worth it).
Which App Store would we say is the “open” one? I don’t know that one truly exists.. and I feel confident it would be hard work to make such a thing (but it might be worth it).
> Which App Store would we say is the “open” one? I don’t know that one truly exists.. and I feel confident it would be hard work to make such a thing (but it might be worth it).
There is none, and no matter how much you aren't lazy, you can't have one because Apple won't let you. Which is why that statement 'be free or be lazy' is nonsense.
There is none, and no matter how much you aren't lazy, you can't have one because Apple won't let you. Which is why that statement 'be free or be lazy' is nonsense.
I haven’t read the details of US vs Apple [1] (only recently heard about it), but presumably this may be part of it?
[1] https://www.theverge.com/24107581/doj-v-apple-antitrust-mono...
[1] https://www.theverge.com/24107581/doj-v-apple-antitrust-mono...
I didn't realize this until I saw it in a comment there, but if you download an app from the Windows Store, it will often run its own updater instead of updating from the Store. So even if you download an out of date version of VLC to begin with, it will at least prompt you to upgrade when you start it.
Fdroid handles this pretty well. They don't impose the restrictions that the larger tech firms do, you can build for very very old devices.
Does anybody still use iOS 9? If someone hasn't updated their OS in 8 years, is it reasonable for them the expect app updates on it?
I have a device (an O.G. iPad) that is stuck on iOS 5.1.1. The hardware still works beautifully, as well as the day I bought it, but thanks to Apple, it's pretty much a brick now. 3P apps refuse to support it because they've all moved their minimum OS version beyond that. Perfectly working junk purely because of software choices.
“Thanks to Apple”?
The original iPad was a 32 bit A8 single core CPU that topped out as 1Ghz and with 256MB Ram and used the ARMv7 instruction set.
How do you expect a modern day OS with requirements to deal with real world sensors, and user requirements that didn’t exist back then, to run against that?
The latest iPads have 2GB Ram, are 64 bit, run multiple cores and have embedded motion coprocessors and neural capabilities running a much later instruction set.
Let’s be reasonable here - that device is now about to be 14 years old.
And, if “the hardware works beautifully” how is it “pretty much a brick”?
iPads are not the same as laptops or desktops. Sure, you can still run some Linux distros on older 32 bit hardware, but everyone who does knows of the limitations of doing so and realize that they lack the horsepower of modern day computers and use them accordingly.
The original iPad was a 32 bit A8 single core CPU that topped out as 1Ghz and with 256MB Ram and used the ARMv7 instruction set.
How do you expect a modern day OS with requirements to deal with real world sensors, and user requirements that didn’t exist back then, to run against that?
The latest iPads have 2GB Ram, are 64 bit, run multiple cores and have embedded motion coprocessors and neural capabilities running a much later instruction set.
Let’s be reasonable here - that device is now about to be 14 years old.
And, if “the hardware works beautifully” how is it “pretty much a brick”?
iPads are not the same as laptops or desktops. Sure, you can still run some Linux distros on older 32 bit hardware, but everyone who does knows of the limitations of doing so and realize that they lack the horsepower of modern day computers and use them accordingly.
> “Thanks to Apple”?
Yep. They are the ones that chose to end software support for the device a mere 2 years after it was released. Or did someone else make that decision?
> And, if “the hardware works beautifully” how is it “pretty much a brick”?
Because it only runs the pre-installed apps, and not even all of them because several of the pre-installed apps rely on non-functioning cloud services. This is the fault of 1. Apple for ending OS support, 2. Cloud services ending support for old apps, and 3. 3rd party apps ending support for old devices + Apple not allowing users to download the "latest compatible version."
> iPads are not the same as laptops or desktops. Sure, you can still run some Linux distros on older 32 bit hardware, but everyone who does knows of the limitations of doing so and realize that they lack the horsepower of modern day computers and use them accordingly.
That decision about accepting the limitations and trade-offs should be in the hands of end users, not the device's manufacturer. I can install a relatively recent Linux distribution on my 20 year old PC and decide for myself whether I can live with the performance.
Yep. They are the ones that chose to end software support for the device a mere 2 years after it was released. Or did someone else make that decision?
> And, if “the hardware works beautifully” how is it “pretty much a brick”?
Because it only runs the pre-installed apps, and not even all of them because several of the pre-installed apps rely on non-functioning cloud services. This is the fault of 1. Apple for ending OS support, 2. Cloud services ending support for old apps, and 3. 3rd party apps ending support for old devices + Apple not allowing users to download the "latest compatible version."
> iPads are not the same as laptops or desktops. Sure, you can still run some Linux distros on older 32 bit hardware, but everyone who does knows of the limitations of doing so and realize that they lack the horsepower of modern day computers and use them accordingly.
That decision about accepting the limitations and trade-offs should be in the hands of end users, not the device's manufacturer. I can install a relatively recent Linux distribution on my 20 year old PC and decide for myself whether I can live with the performance.
> Yep. They are the ones that chose to end software support for the device a mere 2 years after it was released. Or did someone else make that decision?
You’re totally correct - and there seemed be be few changes in iOS 6 that necessitated that move. That said, getting it above iOS 11 was never going to happen given the architecture change.
>That decision about accepting the limitations and trade-offs should be in the hands of end users, not the device's manufacturer. I can install a relatively recent Linux distribution on my 20 year old PC and decide for myself whether I can live with the performance.
iPad users are not even remotely in the same group as Linux users.
As a Linux user using old hardware you are making an educated decision to do so, knowing all the pitfalls.
Your average iPad user just wants the thing to run at speeds comparable to current devices and with minimal loss of functionality.
An iPad is not a full blown computer like a modern day laptop is.
I used to be an Android girl. I owned an original Xoom and later on, a Nexus 7.
They were both unusable within a few years because the needs of the OS was greater than the devices could handle: and that’s even after I rooted them both and upgraded to the latest Cyanogen versions at the time.
You’re totally correct - and there seemed be be few changes in iOS 6 that necessitated that move. That said, getting it above iOS 11 was never going to happen given the architecture change.
>That decision about accepting the limitations and trade-offs should be in the hands of end users, not the device's manufacturer. I can install a relatively recent Linux distribution on my 20 year old PC and decide for myself whether I can live with the performance.
iPad users are not even remotely in the same group as Linux users.
As a Linux user using old hardware you are making an educated decision to do so, knowing all the pitfalls.
Your average iPad user just wants the thing to run at speeds comparable to current devices and with minimal loss of functionality.
An iPad is not a full blown computer like a modern day laptop is.
I used to be an Android girl. I owned an original Xoom and later on, a Nexus 7.
They were both unusable within a few years because the needs of the OS was greater than the devices could handle: and that’s even after I rooted them both and upgraded to the latest Cyanogen versions at the time.
Step 1: stop using 14 year old devices
Like dude, a 14 year old pc would suck today. A 14 year old laptop would suck today. A 14 year old phone would suck today.
Like dude, a 14 year old pc would suck today. A 14 year old laptop would suck today. A 14 year old phone would suck today.
While an entry level 14y old pc is probably a turd today, one that had mid-high specs at the time still works totally fine to this day.
Suck for what? There’s plenty of use cases for old devices. It’s not for you (or a corporation) to decide what’s good for me.
> It’s not for you (or a corporation) to decide what’s good for me.
True, but neither is it up to him (or a corporation) to continue issuing free software updates from now until the heat death of the Universe.
Jailbreak it and use it as you will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKXN5F7dGI
(disclaimer: haven't actually tried this specific one... a web search turns up many sites that claim to show you how to do this).
True, but neither is it up to him (or a corporation) to continue issuing free software updates from now until the heat death of the Universe.
Jailbreak it and use it as you will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQKXN5F7dGI
(disclaimer: haven't actually tried this specific one... a web search turns up many sites that claim to show you how to do this).
Yes, and this is exactly the reason why root access should be possible for every device, without jailbreak.
I used to roll my eyes at the 'Apple = planned obsolescence' thing; but on the macOS side OpenCore pretty much proves that it's true
The amount of hardware that's been thrown away just because they decided it's time you bought a new Mac is insane
We're about to see something similar when Windows 10 hits end of life, and everything without a TPM will get trashed
The amount of hardware that's been thrown away just because they decided it's time you bought a new Mac is insane
We're about to see something similar when Windows 10 hits end of life, and everything without a TPM will get trashed
Still rocking my MBP from 2015 playing all the 32 bit games on it.
I use a 2019 MBP at work which I do all my development on with JetBrains, DBeaver, Postgre Server and Podman on.
And I also have a home M1 MBA which is my take anywhere device for when we need a full blown computer.
Even my old iPad Pro 9.7 is in use as a monitor on my work machine.
Not seeing this need to throw devices out yet just because there are newer flashier machines out there.
I use a 2019 MBP at work which I do all my development on with JetBrains, DBeaver, Postgre Server and Podman on.
And I also have a home M1 MBA which is my take anywhere device for when we need a full blown computer.
Even my old iPad Pro 9.7 is in use as a monitor on my work machine.
Not seeing this need to throw devices out yet just because there are newer flashier machines out there.
Apple supports the last 3 named OS versions - anything older won't be getting security updates
Which strangely means if you have an Intel Mac that Apple dropped support for, you could run Windows 10 and still be supported until next year
Which strangely means if you have an Intel Mac that Apple dropped support for, you could run Windows 10 and still be supported until next year
Not sure your point, here.
If Apple don’t release MacOS 15 for my 2019, even by your statement, I’d still be supported until mid 2026, and not have to change my OS.
If Apple don’t release MacOS 15 for my 2019, even by your statement, I’d still be supported until mid 2026, and not have to change my OS.
I'd love a minimal ios/linux variant to run software on old Apple devices. I have a bunch of devices that I could repurpose for PDF reading, light video or radio streaming etc.
The hardware is well built but the apple lockdown says I can't get alternate OSs on this thing. You can even go back to the original ios version - because of jailbreaking.
The hardware is well built but the apple lockdown says I can't get alternate OSs on this thing. You can even go back to the original ios version - because of jailbreaking.
Apple should be forced to fully open up TSS for a device when they move them into "vintage" or "obsolete" status
If you wanted to do it on really old Apple devices, I had Linux running on an iPod photo back in 2005 or so. It ran Doom, and also worked as a Redbox (there were still a few payphones around back then).
But yes, it'd be nice for something not quite that old too.
But yes, it'd be nice for something not quite that old too.
On the other hand, VLC goes out of their way to give updates to users of old OS versions. Why won't Google and Microsoft let them do it?
According to VLC there are still millions of users of outdated Android TV and I agree with them: it's unreasonable to ask all these people to buy a new TV if it's still working. I get that manufacturers don't update the OS for more than n years (if at all). I get that some developers decide to not deliver updates for OS older than n versions. But wanting to deliver updates for these users should not be impossible.
According to VLC there are still millions of users of outdated Android TV and I agree with them: it's unreasonable to ask all these people to buy a new TV if it's still working. I get that manufacturers don't update the OS for more than n years (if at all). I get that some developers decide to not deliver updates for OS older than n versions. But wanting to deliver updates for these users should not be impossible.
My iPad 3 with its high res retina display is still very usable for watching videos, but is stuck on iOS 9.3.6.
I know a professor who was still using iPhone 3GS just a few years ago. So there you go.
To be fair, iOS 9 wasn't EOLed until July 2019 (only about 4.5 years ago).
Still, that's a... long time.
Still, that's a... long time.
The combination of store and update service isn't a necessary approach and splitting the two is a lot more open and windows installer like anyway. Chocolatey does just the updating but I don't love how it works but it separates the concerns and allows hosting where ever you want.
Marketplaces are either open or closed. For open marketplaces to thrive, they must be under the control ultimately of decentralized, federated authority. This means light governance based on interoperability standards, followed by independent, autonomous organizational units and individuals participating in open standard process frameworks.
That doesn’t mean closed marketplaces don’t work - they do, and well (to a point and certain scale) and are necessary, and there is an interplay between the two.
That said, open marketplaces and standards are for certain the superset of closed ones, this is where we get the interplay of public and private.
App stores as a model aren’t necessarily the problem, they are just a distribution model. The control and operation of app stores as they are currently controlled mainly as closed/private could be perceived as an obstacle. But, why not then pursue what an open App Store/marketplace might look like?
I believe the above is like physics, and some may label me a heretic for the strength of my belief in the above.
I truly believe that the sooner humanity advances to this understanding more broadly and we can more easily converse and cooperate in decentralized, federated, open marketplaces as an everyday pursuit, the better off all will be.
The Internet, and me being able to post this right now on the open forum of HN is proof of the value in fully understanding and being comfortable with the concepts.
That doesn’t mean closed marketplaces don’t work - they do, and well (to a point and certain scale) and are necessary, and there is an interplay between the two.
That said, open marketplaces and standards are for certain the superset of closed ones, this is where we get the interplay of public and private.
App stores as a model aren’t necessarily the problem, they are just a distribution model. The control and operation of app stores as they are currently controlled mainly as closed/private could be perceived as an obstacle. But, why not then pursue what an open App Store/marketplace might look like?
I believe the above is like physics, and some may label me a heretic for the strength of my belief in the above.
I truly believe that the sooner humanity advances to this understanding more broadly and we can more easily converse and cooperate in decentralized, federated, open marketplaces as an everyday pursuit, the better off all will be.
The Internet, and me being able to post this right now on the open forum of HN is proof of the value in fully understanding and being comfortable with the concepts.
Seeing the downvote, let me add relevant context - VLC is one of the most awesome products I have ever seen that is open.
My feeling is that an equally great “open App Store” that is popular enough does not exist (and if it did, I suspect Apple for example would actively have prevented it from being an option on iOS). Probable Google too for Android? I am not as sure in the second one.. is there an open Android App Store/marketplace/catalog?
My feeling is that an equally great “open App Store” that is popular enough does not exist (and if it did, I suspect Apple for example would actively have prevented it from being an option on iOS). Probable Google too for Android? I am not as sure in the second one.. is there an open Android App Store/marketplace/catalog?
Yea, fdroid
App stores were definitely a mistake. I see the arguments for we gotta vet and ensure security, but it’s been so political and poorly done that Apple and Google play king makers and rent-collecting empires.
It's about control and OS companies want to return to the old days where the ISV was not a thing unless blessed by them. Sony was a big proponent of this in recent years.
iOS...9?
I actually went to the link to check if this was a mistake.
I actually went to the link to check if this was a mistake.
So what should change?
Developers shouldn't support App Stores to begin with. Have you heard of Minix, Windows Mobile and Sailfish OS - without developers a platform dies / cannot survive.
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And another tangential issue is how search in Google Play is a ridiculous mess lately. It would show you WhatsApp and some other popular apps for literally any search query, while not finding the app you're actually looking for, even if you enter its exact name.