PuTTY vulnerability vuln-p521-bias(chiark.greenend.org.uk)
chiark.greenend.org.uk
PuTTY vulnerability vuln-p521-bias
https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/wishlist/vuln-p521-bias.html
227 comments
What's really interesting to me is that there was a known solution to the DSA/ECDSA nonce generation problem, RFC 6979, which was published 4 years before the vulnerability was introduced into PuTTY. And it sounds like the developer knew about this RFC at the time but didn't implement it because the much earlier version of deterministic nonce generation that PuTTY already had seemed similar enough and the differences were assessed to not be security critical.
So I think the other lesson here is that deviating from a cryptographic right answer is a major footgun unless you understand exactly why the recommendation works the way it does and exactly what the implications are of you doing it differently.
So I think the other lesson here is that deviating from a cryptographic right answer is a major footgun unless you understand exactly why the recommendation works the way it does and exactly what the implications are of you doing it differently.
The article addresses this: they wrote this code path in 2001. RFC 6979 was authored in 2013.
But elliptic curve support and this vulnerability weren't introduced until 2017, and the commit log (https://git.tartarus.org/?p=simon/putty.git;a=commitdiff;h=c...) makes it clear the developer was aware of the RFC but chose not to upgrade the 2001 code. Doing so prior to the elliptic curve support being added would have completely avoided this vulnerability.
In a parallel universe, they switched to RFC6979 in 2013, but the implementation had a bug that wasn't detected for years, allowing compromise of lots of keys. In that parallel universe, HN is criticizing them for following fashion instead of just leaving an already-proven piece of crypto code in place.
It's an unfortunate bug, an unfortunate oversight, but I think they made a perfectly reasonable choice at the time.
It's an unfortunate bug, an unfortunate oversight, but I think they made a perfectly reasonable choice at the time.
I think 6979 is a bit of a red herring here. 6979 is about deterministic nonce generation, which is what you do to dodge the problem of having an insecure RNG. But the problem here isn't that the RNG is secure; it's more fundamentally a problem of not understanding what the rules of the nonce are.
But I may be hair-splitting. Like, yeah, they freelanced their own deterministic nonce generation. Either way, I think this code long predates 6979.
But I may be hair-splitting. Like, yeah, they freelanced their own deterministic nonce generation. Either way, I think this code long predates 6979.
I was going based off the commit link posted further down the thread (https://git.tartarus.org/?p=simon/putty.git;a=commitdiff;h=c...). You're right that the PuTTY deterministic nonce generating code does appear to significantly predate the RFC, but it sounds like the developer made a conscious decision when 6979 came out not to switch from what PuTTY already had because they looked similar enough. The PuTTY release that introduced support for elliptic curve cryptography (and introduced this vulnerability) was 0.68, which came out in 2017, 4 years after the RFC.
You're right that this was not an RNG security problem and instead was a problem with not understanding ECDSA nonce rules. However the notable fact for me was that the developer was apparently aware of the recommended way to deterministically generate nonces prior to the vulnerability being introduced and made a choice not to implement the RFC because what PuTTY was already doing seemed close enough, without fully understanding the implications of doing so. To put it another way, understanding ECDSA nonce rules would have avoided this vulnerability, but so too would implementing the RFC recommended way even if the developer did not fully understand why it was better than the existing implementation.
You're right that this was not an RNG security problem and instead was a problem with not understanding ECDSA nonce rules. However the notable fact for me was that the developer was apparently aware of the recommended way to deterministically generate nonces prior to the vulnerability being introduced and made a choice not to implement the RFC because what PuTTY was already doing seemed close enough, without fully understanding the implications of doing so. To put it another way, understanding ECDSA nonce rules would have avoided this vulnerability, but so too would implementing the RFC recommended way even if the developer did not fully understand why it was better than the existing implementation.
Right, the reason I'm splitting hairs is that in my intuition, the whole rationale for 6979 is to eliminate the possibility of fully repeated nonces, for instance because your RNG is "unseeded". You can still end up with a biased nonce even if you're using a perfectly seeded random bit generator (as you can see here). But yeah I think we understand each other.
As you can probably see, I just love this bug class, is all.
As you can probably see, I just love this bug class, is all.
RFC6979 attempts to guarantee that the nonce is unbiased (under the assumption that HMAC's output is indistinguishable from random). It's definitely attempting to give a stronger property than simply preventing a repeated nonce.
See step (h) in Section 3.2. The nonce is selected by rejection sampling. Thus, under the above assumption about HMAC, the result is indistinguishable from uniformly random in the [1, q-1] range.
See step (h) in Section 3.2. The nonce is selected by rejection sampling. Thus, under the above assumption about HMAC, the result is indistinguishable from uniformly random in the [1, q-1] range.
> As you can probably see, I just love this bug class, is all.
I agree! DSA nonce issues are a great class of cryptographic bug in that they're sort of weirdly unexpected failure properties when you first hear about it.
I agree! DSA nonce issues are a great class of cryptographic bug in that they're sort of weirdly unexpected failure properties when you first hear about it.
And then you find out about special soundness and that this is not only expected behaviour, but crucial to the security definitions and you realise that signatures are absolutely cursed.
I don't think anybody consciously looked at 9 zero bits and thought this is fine, but it rather looks like unfortunate effect of plugging old code into new algorithms without proper verification.
You could be right. If you look at the old code, dsa_gen_k(), that was removed during the commit (https://git.tartarus.org/?p=simon/putty.git;a=commitdiff;h=c...), it does basically no bounds checking, presumably because at the time it was written it was assumed that all modulus values would be many fewer bits than the size of a SHA-512 output.
So it would have been pretty easy to just reuse the function for a modulus value that was too big without encountering any errors. And the old code was written 15+ years before it was used for P-521, so it's entirely possible the developer forgot the limitations of the dsa_gen_k() function. So maybe there's another lesson here about bounds checking inputs and outputs even if they don't apply to anything you're currently doing.
So it would have been pretty easy to just reuse the function for a modulus value that was too big without encountering any errors. And the old code was written 15+ years before it was used for P-521, so it's entirely possible the developer forgot the limitations of the dsa_gen_k() function. So maybe there's another lesson here about bounds checking inputs and outputs even if they don't apply to anything you're currently doing.
I mean, bounds checking should really be caught by complete test coverage, shouldn't it? Or fuzzing? It doesn't address the more fundamental problem of cryptanalysis attacks, but it would definitely help mitigate the simple mistakes which can lead to exploitable implementations.
The very existence of 521-bit ECDSA is a footgun just waiting to go off.
To any programmer who is accustomed to thinking in binary but hasn't heard the full story about why it ended up being such an odd number, 521 is virtually indistinguishable at a glance from the nice round number that is 512. Heck, when I first read about it, I thought it was a typo!
To any programmer who is accustomed to thinking in binary but hasn't heard the full story about why it ended up being such an odd number, 521 is virtually indistinguishable at a glance from the nice round number that is 512. Heck, when I first read about it, I thought it was a typo!
The size is unexpected, but I believe this would have been an issue even if it really was 512-bit ECDSA rather than 521. Taking a random 512-bit number, which is what the PuTTY nonce function produced, and taking it modulo another 512-bit number, would also bias the output. Not as severely as having 9 bits that are always zero, but enough to be potentially exploitable anyways.
To avoid this issue, you either want your random value to be significantly larger than the modulus (which is what EDDSA does) or you want to generate random values of the right number of bits until one happens to be smaller than the modulus (which is what RFC 6979 does).
To avoid this issue, you either want your random value to be significantly larger than the modulus (which is what EDDSA does) or you want to generate random values of the right number of bits until one happens to be smaller than the modulus (which is what RFC 6979 does).
There are many footguns in ECDSA, it's an old algorithm created to exist, instead use an algorithm designed to be safe, like ed25519.
The number in question is actually:
$ bc
bc 1.07.1
Copyright 1991-1994, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2012-2017 Free
Software Foundation, Inc.
This is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
For details type `warranty'.
2^521-1
68647976601306097149819007990813932172694353001433054093944634591855\
43183397656052122559640661454554977296311391480858037121987999716643\
812574028291115057151> Systems programming intuition tells you that a 512-bit random number is, to within mind-boggling tolerances, as unguessable as a 521-bit random number.
Sure, but the other half of systems programming intuition tells you "the end user is going to truncate this value to 8 bits and still expect it to be random".
Sure, but the other half of systems programming intuition tells you "the end user is going to truncate this value to 8 bits and still expect it to be random".
It's not the difference between an n-bit random number and an n-bit modulus. It's the difference between a 512-bit random number and a 521-bit random number. It's very simple, but wording it as number vs. modulus is needlessly confusing, just adding to the problem you are bemoaning.
The issue with cryptography is that you have to be precise, that means the communication needs to involve far more detail, even if it can initially be confusing.
This is one of the major reasons that crypto is hard and if you try to get around the "hard" bit your "shortcut" will probably come back to bite you. When it comes to crypto and accuracy (and hence security), more communication, and detailed communication are probably the solution not the problem.
This is one of the major reasons that crypto is hard and if you try to get around the "hard" bit your "shortcut" will probably come back to bite you. When it comes to crypto and accuracy (and hence security), more communication, and detailed communication are probably the solution not the problem.
Agreed; my problem was that the parent comment was imprecise, and hence confusing. "n bit random number vs. n bit modulus" implied n was the same in each case, whereas 521 is not the same as 512.
I feel like there should be some intuition like a cable rated for 100kg is not suitable for holding 110kg, therefore 512 bits of entropy is not rated to be 521 bits of entropy?
Oh well, there’s this very popular library which generates 256-bit keys setting the last 128 bits to a value derived from the first 128 bits. So I guess in agreement with your post: actually achieving full entropy is not obvious.
https://chilkatforum.com/questions/622/algorithm-for-generat...
Oh well, there’s this very popular library which generates 256-bit keys setting the last 128 bits to a value derived from the first 128 bits. So I guess in agreement with your post: actually achieving full entropy is not obvious.
https://chilkatforum.com/questions/622/algorithm-for-generat...
No, it’s actually far worse than that. This is like if you bought prestressed concrete rated for 100kg and you loaded it with 50kg. This is less than the limit, so it’s good right? Nope, the way it works is that you have to give it exactly 100kg of load or else it’s weak to tension and your building falls over in the wind. The problem here is that not that they needed 521 bits of entropy and 512 was too little but that 521 bits of entropy of which 512 are legit and the top 9 bits are all zeroes breaks the algorithm completely and makes it not secure at all. In fact I think copying 9 bits from the other 512, while not great, would have probably made this basically not a problem. I am not a cryptographer though, so don’t quote me on that ;)
The article has a good writeup. Clear, actionable, concise.
If you have a bit of instinct for this, it feels obvious that 'reducing' a smaller number by a larger one is not going to obscure the smaller 1 in any meaningful way, and instead it will leave it completely unchanged.
I don't think this is so much what you make it out to be, but a poor understanding of basic discrete maths (also I think you mean the 521 bit modulus leaves 9 zero bits, the modulus normally refers to the divisor not the remainder)
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Modulus.html
If you have a bit of instinct for this, it feels obvious that 'reducing' a smaller number by a larger one is not going to obscure the smaller 1 in any meaningful way, and instead it will leave it completely unchanged.
I don't think this is so much what you make it out to be, but a poor understanding of basic discrete maths (also I think you mean the 521 bit modulus leaves 9 zero bits, the modulus normally refers to the divisor not the remainder)
https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Modulus.html
Tf is a zero bit and how is it distinct from a zero bit?
Here it is the difference between a bit that is part of a cryptographically-safe random number and just happens to be zero, but had equal chance of being one, and a bit that is zero every time because of the way the numbers are being generated.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking here but note that 521 != 512, and the former is not a typo.
Plot twist: The choice of 521 is adversarial specifically to exploit PuTTY without being easily noticed. (Ok I get that 2^521-1 is a mersenne prime).
maybe 2^521-1 being a mersenne prime is adversarial
only in base 10 :)
I considered making that joke, that the established common base was picked adversarially to have 521 and 512 be confusingly similar but couldn't find a non convoluted way of expressing that without implying primes change with base
A zero bit is not a cryptographically random bit.
I don't have a substantive comment to offer, but good on Simon Tatham for the clear and forthcoming write-up. No damage-control lawyerly BS, no 'ego', just the facts about the issue.
It's reassuring to see a solid disclosure after a security issue, and we too often see half-truths and deceptive downplaying, e.g. LastPass.
It's reassuring to see a solid disclosure after a security issue, and we too often see half-truths and deceptive downplaying, e.g. LastPass.
Yes, Simon is a brilliant person (hi Simon!) and would be the last person on earth to do any spin. He also doesn't owe anyone anything, PuTTY was a gift from him to the world when there was no good alternative on Windows, a gift that has had an incalculably large benefit to so many people that no one should forget.
I had the pleasure to meet him in person and the guy is just so grounded and nice to interact and help you with stuff in a non-judgmental way.
Many people I know, with less than 1% of his contributions to OSS, have inflated egos and are just full of themselves, so it is refreshing to have people such as Simon in the OSS community.
Many people I know, with less than 1% of his contributions to OSS, have inflated egos and are just full of themselves, so it is refreshing to have people such as Simon in the OSS community.
> No damage-control lawyerly BS, no 'ego'
And no cutesy name for the vulnerability
And no cutesy name for the vulnerability
The "Dragon Eater Vulnerability", that all managers will agitate about mitigating for the next 4 weeks...
I think named vulnerabilities are useful when it's a "STOP THE WORLD" kind of vulnerability like Heartbleed and Shellshock. It's much easier to talk about Heartbleed than "CVE-2014-0160".
The problem, IMO, is when medium-severity vulnerabilities are given names, like Terrapin. I think it makes people think a vulnerability is much worse than it really is.
The problem, IMO, is when medium-severity vulnerabilities are given names, like Terrapin. I think it makes people think a vulnerability is much worse than it really is.
Heartbleed was a decade ago? JFC I’m getting old
I wish this announcement included the backstory of how someone discovered this vulnerability.
Public keys are enough of a pain in the ass with PuTTY / KiTTY that I stick with password auth for my windows SSH'ing needs.
KiTTY even let's you save the passwords so you don't have to type it in, a horrible security practice no doubt, but so convenient... Perhaps more secure than the putty-gen'd ECDSA P521 keys? A tad bit ironic.
Public keys are enough of a pain in the ass with PuTTY / KiTTY that I stick with password auth for my windows SSH'ing needs.
KiTTY even let's you save the passwords so you don't have to type it in, a horrible security practice no doubt, but so convenient... Perhaps more secure than the putty-gen'd ECDSA P521 keys? A tad bit ironic.
We found it by investigating the security of SSH as part of a larger research program focussing on SSH, which also resulted in our publication of the Terrapin vulnerability.
This particular bug basically fell into our hands while staring at the source code during our investigation of the security of SSH client signatures.
This particular bug basically fell into our hands while staring at the source code during our investigation of the security of SSH client signatures.
Thank you, we all need more of that.
Public money very well spent...
Ironically, DJB considers the 521 curve to be the only NIST standard that uses reasonable primes.
"To be fair I should mention that there's one standard NIST curve using a nice prime, namely 2^521 - 1; but the sheer size of this prime makes it much slower than NIST P-256."
http://blog.cr.yp.to/20140323-ecdsa.html
http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/rigid.html
"To be fair I should mention that there's one standard NIST curve using a nice prime, namely 2^521 - 1; but the sheer size of this prime makes it much slower than NIST P-256."
http://blog.cr.yp.to/20140323-ecdsa.html
http://safecurves.cr.yp.to/rigid.html
The 521 curve is the only one using a Mersenne prime, which has significant advantages when you do calculations, but also feels less arbitrary.
This vulnerability has very little to do with P-521 per se. The issue is with ECDSA: any use of ECDSA with biased nonce generation, regardless of the elliptic curve it's implemented over, immediately causes secret key leakage.
(Rant: All these years later, we're all still doing penance for the fact that Schnorr signatures were patented and so everyone used ECDSA instead. It's an absolute garbage fire of a signature scheme and should be abandoned yesterday for many reasons, e.g., no real proof of security, terrible footguns like this.)
(Rant: All these years later, we're all still doing penance for the fact that Schnorr signatures were patented and so everyone used ECDSA instead. It's an absolute garbage fire of a signature scheme and should be abandoned yesterday for many reasons, e.g., no real proof of security, terrible footguns like this.)
Schnorr wouldn't have helped in this specific case, since Schnorr is equally vulnerable to biased nonces (https://ecc2017.cs.ru.nl/slides/ecc2017-tibouchi.pdf).
EdDSA, which is essentially deterministic Schnorr, does solve the problem.
Also, the use of P-521 didn't specifically cause the vulnerability, but the bad interaction between SHA512 and P-521 did play a role. It is unfortunate that nature conspired against us to make 2^511 - 1 a composite number. The fact that you have to go up to 521 bits to get a Mersenne prime whereas the natural target length for a hash output is 512 bits is the fatal interaction here.
EdDSA, which is essentially deterministic Schnorr, does solve the problem.
Also, the use of P-521 didn't specifically cause the vulnerability, but the bad interaction between SHA512 and P-521 did play a role. It is unfortunate that nature conspired against us to make 2^511 - 1 a composite number. The fact that you have to go up to 521 bits to get a Mersenne prime whereas the natural target length for a hash output is 512 bits is the fatal interaction here.
Excellent points all around, and thank you for the pointer to the ECC slides :)
(And indeed, nature could have been kinder to us and given us a Mersenne between 127 and 521...)
(And indeed, nature could have been kinder to us and given us a Mersenne between 127 and 521...)
Shouldn't there be another close enough prime? Like 2^510-1 or 2^511-19?
> Schnorr signatures
Never heard of (which probably demonstrates that I know pretty much nothing about cryptography?), so seeing a name spelled like "Schn...r" in this context makes at least me think of an entirely different luminary in the area. Thought it was a typo at first.
Never heard of (which probably demonstrates that I know pretty much nothing about cryptography?), so seeing a name spelled like "Schn...r" in this context makes at least me think of an entirely different luminary in the area. Thought it was a typo at first.
I’m over here wondering why someone would want deterministic nonces.
Isn’t it kind of the point to just roll random numbers? When would you calculate?
Isn’t it kind of the point to just roll random numbers? When would you calculate?
It says in the OP. Windows at the time did not provide a cryptographic quality random number source.
I saw that, and wondered why PuTTY didn't contain it's own good CSPRNG, something like Fortuna, if Windows didn't offer one.
You still need a source of entropy, which is easier for an OS. An app has to resort to the user moving the mouse or bashing keys, which is a worse UX, although I guess they did that for actual key generation (if PuTTY did that) but it would be annoying to do it every time you made a connection.
Assuming I'm reading it right, this is an absolutely classic vulnerability, something people who study cryptographic vulnerability research would instinctually check for, so what's taken so long is probably for anyone to bother evaluating the P-521 implementation in PuTTY.
Correct. Every time I've seen P-521 in a professional setting, it is the very first thing I check for.
How often do people get it wrong? It doesn't seem particularly difficult to generate 521 random bits.
This is the first time it's ever actually happened. I'm just painfully aware of missing developer ergonomics and ways to shoot oneself in the foot.
It was found a bunch a decade or so ago. PuTTY is just a more obscure codebase.
Sorry, I should've been clearer: all the times I've checked for this specific bug, I did not find it in the code I was looking at. All the times I looked for it was the series of events I was reflecting on.
That's what I meant by "the first time it's happened". I shouldn't write comments before my first cup of coffee.
That's what I meant by "the first time it's happened". I shouldn't write comments before my first cup of coffee.
The classic FOSS tragedy of the commons: we'd all benefit from an in-depth security review of the PuTTY codebase, but no one will fund it.
You should be using pageant to store the secret ssh keys, and you only need to unlock the key on reboot/first use.
Windows has a built in ssh-agent included with openssh, no need for pagent anymore.
Ssh agent will manage your ssh keys through windows registry windows login process.
Also if you use wsl, you can access your ssh keys in wsl from the windows ssh-agent via npiperelay
Ssh agent will manage your ssh keys through windows registry windows login process.
Also if you use wsl, you can access your ssh keys in wsl from the windows ssh-agent via npiperelay
You don't even need a relay to use the windows SSH agent from wsl. Simply use ssh.exe instead of /bin/ssh. I've been doing that for a while (I make a symlink in a folder from my PATH that gets picked up before /bin) and haven't encountered any issues so far.
Good to know, I had an issue when I tried that, but thinking back it was a ssh version incompatibility between the default windows and ubuntu.
Or just use a hardware key and enable touch to sign so you have to touch it for every action even when it's unlocked
100% agreed.
For me, the stakes are very low. It's my windows "gaming" machine, and has access to a few low-value hosts.
Otherwise I'd invest the time to learn wtf is pageant ;D
For me, the stakes are very low. It's my windows "gaming" machine, and has access to a few low-value hosts.
Otherwise I'd invest the time to learn wtf is pageant ;D
Windows 10+ now have openssh proper by Microsoft. No need to use putty with it's own custom key format among other nonsense.
This entire comment thread hurts my soul.
How are public keys a pain in the ass?
Sometimes useful reminder: you may not need PuTTY today. On the one side Windows Terminal does a lot of the classic VT* terminal emulation that old ConHost did not. On the other side Windows ships "real" OpenSSH now as a feature that turns on automatically with Windows "Dev Mode". No built in GUI for the SSH agent, but at this point if you are familiar with SSH then using a CLI SSH agent shouldn't be scary. If you are "upgrading" from PuTTY you just need to export your keys to a different format, but that's about the only big change.
PuTTY was a great tool for many years and a lot of people have good reasons to not want to let it go. As with most software it accretes habits and processes built on top of it that are hard to leave. But also useful to sometimes remind about the new options because you never know who wants to be in the Lucky 10K to learn that Windows Terminal now has deeper, "true" terminal emulation or that Windows has ssh "built-in".
PuTTY was a great tool for many years and a lot of people have good reasons to not want to let it go. As with most software it accretes habits and processes built on top of it that are hard to leave. But also useful to sometimes remind about the new options because you never know who wants to be in the Lucky 10K to learn that Windows Terminal now has deeper, "true" terminal emulation or that Windows has ssh "built-in".
I am on a corporate desktop, so I cannot use the Microsoft variant of the ssh-agent:
PuTTY has a workaround, allowing PAGENT.EXE to be used in place of the forbidden/inaccessible Microsoft agent:
https://tartarus.org/~simon/putty-snapshots/htmldoc/Chapter9...
So PuTTY remains quite relevant because of the mechanisms that Microsoft has chosen.
C:\Users\luser>ssh-agent
unable to start ssh-agent service, error :1058
PuTTY has a workaround, allowing PAGENT.EXE to be used in place of the forbidden/inaccessible Microsoft agent:
https://tartarus.org/~simon/putty-snapshots/htmldoc/Chapter9...
So PuTTY remains quite relevant because of the mechanisms that Microsoft has chosen.
I'm sorry that you need to work around the inability to run a simple Windows service because of some mistakenly bad corporate policy trying to micro-manage which Windows services are allowed to run. I don't think the long term solution should be "shadow IT install an older app just because it pretends to be a GUI rather than a Windows service", but I'm glad it is working for you in the short term.
If you need ammunition to encourage your corporate IT to allow you to run the proper ssh-agent service to do your job instead of increasing your attack surface by installing PuTTY/Pageant, you could collect a list of vulnerabilities such as the one posted here (look at the huge count of affected versions on just this one!). There should be plenty of vulnerability maintenance evidence on the Microsoft-shipped version of an open source tool with a lot of eyeballs because it is "the standard" for almost all platforms over the "single developer" tool that took at least a decade off from active development (and it shows).
If you need ammunition to encourage your corporate IT to allow you to run the proper ssh-agent service to do your job instead of increasing your attack surface by installing PuTTY/Pageant, you could collect a list of vulnerabilities such as the one posted here (look at the huge count of affected versions on just this one!). There should be plenty of vulnerability maintenance evidence on the Microsoft-shipped version of an open source tool with a lot of eyeballs because it is "the standard" for almost all platforms over the "single developer" tool that took at least a decade off from active development (and it shows).
> If you need ammunition to encourage your corporate IT to allow you to run the proper ssh-agent service to do your job instead of increasing your attack surface by installing PuTTY/Pageant, you could collect a list of vulnerabilities such as the one posted here...
This made me laugh :-) Grandparent is probably happy to just fly under the radar. The suggested conversation would probably play out thusly:
> IT! You idiots! Your dumb policies are forcing me to use this insecure software! Look how many vulnerabilities it has had over the years!
>> Hold up. Rewind. What's this software that you've installed?
> It's called PuTTY. And if you just change this policy I could...
>> And how insecure is it?
> Just check out all these vulnerabilities! It's probably not worse than the average, but it's unnecessary extra attack surface area that...
>> I'm going to need you to uninstall that. Now. And I'll need confirmation via email that you have done so by EOB, with your boss and the CISO on CC.
> But if you just change this boneheaded policy...
>> Now, please. We have a security incident on our hands. We can discuss policy another time. Is there anything else installed on your laptop that I should be aware of?
This made me laugh :-) Grandparent is probably happy to just fly under the radar. The suggested conversation would probably play out thusly:
> IT! You idiots! Your dumb policies are forcing me to use this insecure software! Look how many vulnerabilities it has had over the years!
>> Hold up. Rewind. What's this software that you've installed?
> It's called PuTTY. And if you just change this policy I could...
>> And how insecure is it?
> Just check out all these vulnerabilities! It's probably not worse than the average, but it's unnecessary extra attack surface area that...
>> I'm going to need you to uninstall that. Now. And I'll need confirmation via email that you have done so by EOB, with your boss and the CISO on CC.
> But if you just change this boneheaded policy...
>> Now, please. We have a security incident on our hands. We can discuss policy another time. Is there anything else installed on your laptop that I should be aware of?
Actually, the corporate software repository is still pushing 0.67 or so.
I need newer PuTTY to have a capable agent.
I need newer PuTTY to have a capable agent.
So the rationale you can't move to Windows SSH is because you can't run ssh-agent, but you can't run a useful version anyway?
I have my own copy of putty, which I use in preference to what is offered by corporate. I upgraded it to 0.81 today.
Let me just explain my situation.
We were directed to use our new corporate SFTP instead of direct communication with our vendors and customers.
I tried direct ssh on the second account they gave us, got a shell, pulled /etc/passed, and my manager mailed it to corporate security.
We had a long talk about configuring ssh. I don't know if it helped.
We were directed to use our new corporate SFTP instead of direct communication with our vendors and customers.
I tried direct ssh on the second account they gave us, got a shell, pulled /etc/passed, and my manager mailed it to corporate security.
We had a long talk about configuring ssh. I don't know if it helped.
> some mistakenly bad corporate policy trying to micro-manage which Windows services are allowed to run.
Actually, I'd say that's a good corporate policy.
Actually, I'd say that's a good corporate policy.
That bad part is on the how it is tried to be micro-managed not the idea of allowlisting Windows Services in general. There are good reasons to allowlist things like Windows Services, sure. How you micro-manage that allowlist can be bad.
Specific to this case, `ssh-agent` is a Windows Service shipped with Windows and signed by Microsoft. If your allowlist doesn't include built-in Windows services maybe your allowlist is deficient. Further specifically in this case, if you are using ssh (and/or sftp) as business tools and expecting some users to have those tools in their job workflows and processes, it really doesn't make sense not to allowlist the `ssh-agent` service so that those jobs can be performed, at least for those users doing those tasks. That should be obvious to any IT person that has used SSH ever before that having access to a reliable SSH agent is important. If your micro-management processes don't have good processes for making the right exceptions you teach your users to instead rely on the wrong loopholes, that's bad corporate policy.
(Seriously, why would you encourage users to use an out-of-date program with known vulnerabilities, a tiny bus factor, existing known fakes that are malware vectors in the wild, when you can just quickly allowlist a single Windows service, shipped by Windows, and signed by Microsoft? How can you call any such corporate policy anything but bad in this specific example?)
Specific to this case, `ssh-agent` is a Windows Service shipped with Windows and signed by Microsoft. If your allowlist doesn't include built-in Windows services maybe your allowlist is deficient. Further specifically in this case, if you are using ssh (and/or sftp) as business tools and expecting some users to have those tools in their job workflows and processes, it really doesn't make sense not to allowlist the `ssh-agent` service so that those jobs can be performed, at least for those users doing those tasks. That should be obvious to any IT person that has used SSH ever before that having access to a reliable SSH agent is important. If your micro-management processes don't have good processes for making the right exceptions you teach your users to instead rely on the wrong loopholes, that's bad corporate policy.
(Seriously, why would you encourage users to use an out-of-date program with known vulnerabilities, a tiny bus factor, existing known fakes that are malware vectors in the wild, when you can just quickly allowlist a single Windows service, shipped by Windows, and signed by Microsoft? How can you call any such corporate policy anything but bad in this specific example?)
> If your allowlist doesn't include built-in Windows services maybe your allowlist is deficient.
Maybe. Or maybe as a matter of corporate policy you don't want your users connecting to other machines via SSH.
Maybe. Or maybe as a matter of corporate policy you don't want your users connecting to other machines via SSH.
ALWAYS GOOGLE THE ERROR MESSAGE, with context about what you’re doing!
I encountered this, too, but the fix is quite simple.
That service is set to “manual” by default, (or maybe “disabled”) and setting it to “automatic” then starting it will get you running.
It is unlikely that this is a corporate lockdown measure.
I encountered this, too, but the fix is quite simple.
That service is set to “manual” by default, (or maybe “disabled”) and setting it to “automatic” then starting it will get you running.
It is unlikely that this is a corporate lockdown measure.
On my properties dialog for the OpenSSH authentication agent, all of the buttons under "service status" are disabled.
I could probably get this enabled for myself, but all my users are also using this tool with ed25519 keys on PuTTY version 0.77.
I need to stay in this realm.
I could probably get this enabled for myself, but all my users are also using this tool with ed25519 keys on PuTTY version 0.77.
I need to stay in this realm.
> On my properties dialog for the OpenSSH authentication agent, all of the buttons under "service status" are disabled.
Change the “Startup type” to either “manual” or “automatic” and some of those buttons should light up, if I am remembering correctly (I may be misremembering; I’ve been primarily a Mac user for over a year, now.)
> I need to stay in this realm.
That’s fine. PuTTygen converts ssh keys to and from OpenSSH format just fine, though, so it’s an option if you ever choose to explore it.
Change the “Startup type” to either “manual” or “automatic” and some of those buttons should light up, if I am remembering correctly (I may be misremembering; I’ve been primarily a Mac user for over a year, now.)
> I need to stay in this realm.
That’s fine. PuTTygen converts ssh keys to and from OpenSSH format just fine, though, so it’s an option if you ever choose to explore it.
The startup type itself is grey, set to disabled, and I can't change it.
The PuTTY agent is a perfect fit for this situation, unfortunately.
The PuTTY agent is a perfect fit for this situation, unfortunately.
What about using AppLocker to restrict allowed executables to a subset of all available pieces of software on the machine?
It’s possible to lock this down, don’t misunderstand me. I’m saying it’s unlikely for a security team to make this decision on a system where pageant.exe is allowed to run.
Really helpful. I found challenge in getting a Windows system (no admin) into a state where i can use it productively, and having a functional ssh-agent was one of the remaining pain points.
WinCryptSSHAgent is a alternative
There are a few different options in Windows that are all measurably superior to PuTTY:
Install WSL2 - you get the Linux SSH of your choice.
As mentioned above, Windows now ships with OpenSSH and windows terminal is good.
My favourite, but now probably obsolete solution was to install MobaXTerm which shipped with an SSH client. It's still great and there is a usable "free" version of it, but WSL2 does everything for me now when I'm forced to use windows.
Install WSL2 - you get the Linux SSH of your choice.
As mentioned above, Windows now ships with OpenSSH and windows terminal is good.
My favourite, but now probably obsolete solution was to install MobaXTerm which shipped with an SSH client. It's still great and there is a usable "free" version of it, but WSL2 does everything for me now when I'm forced to use windows.
I have some rhel5 systems where I have compiled PuTTY psftp and plink, because it's the easiest way to get a modern client that can do chacha20-poly1305 with ed25519.
MobaXTerm was great for X11 forwarding
It still is, but Microsoft very quiety released WSLg for Windows 10, something they said they wouldn't do, it would be Windows 11 only. I only found this out by accident on a machine I had installed MobaXTerm on, but didn't start it. Installed / fired up some basic X apps and they worked without it (hello xeyes!)
MobaXTerm is still great for managing SSH login details.
MobaXTerm is still great for managing SSH login details.
I may not need PuTTY, but I like me a nice GUI that I can point and click with
ssh command is absolutely fine, but I much prefer a list of saved presets versus ~/.ssh/config file fuckery
ssh command is absolutely fine, but I much prefer a list of saved presets versus ~/.ssh/config file fuckery
I use Bitvise's SSH client[1], has a few QoL advantages over PuTTY, like automatically opening RDP connection.
[1]: https://www.bitvise.com/ssh-client
[1]: https://www.bitvise.com/ssh-client
Too few nerds are willing to admit this. I use git all-day-long, but need to check stackoverflow to use the command line for anything more complicated than switching branches...and I'm ok with that. I save my brain space for more useful things.
Can the built in install of openssh generate keys? That’s why I have putty installed
Yes, the client includes ssh-keygen.
I try to keep proprietary blobs on my system to the minimum.
So this signing method requires a 521 bit random number, and this flaw caused the top 9 bits of that number to be zero instead, and somehow after 60 signatures this leaks the private key?
Anyone care to explain how exactly? How it it any different to the top 9 bits being zero by chance (which happens in 1 out of ~500 attempts anyway)
Anyone care to explain how exactly? How it it any different to the top 9 bits being zero by chance (which happens in 1 out of ~500 attempts anyway)
For the attack all 60 signatures need a nonce that is special in this way. If for example only one out of the 60 is short, the attack fails in the lattice reduction step.
The reason is that in the attack, all 60 short nonces "collude" to make up a very special short vector in the lattice, which is much shorter than usual because it is short in all 60 dimensions, not just one out of 500 dimensions. The approximate shortest vector is then obtainable in polynomial time, and this happens to contain the secret key by construction.
As an analogy: Imagine you had a treasure map with 60 steps "go left, go right, go up, go down, go down again" etc. If only one out of 60 instructions where correct, you wouldn't know where the treasure is. All of the instructions need to be correct to get there.
Sure, it happens by chance, but the attacker doesn't know when it happens.
Doesn't make sense to me as well, even when fully random after 30,000 signatures you would get around 60 signatures where the nonce starts with nine zero bits.
I suspect there must be something else at play here.
EDIT: the nonce is PRIVATE, so the scenario I described would not work because we wouldn't know for which of the 30k signatures the nonce starts with 9 zero bits. Makes sense now.
I suspect there must be something else at play here.
EDIT: the nonce is PRIVATE, so the scenario I described would not work because we wouldn't know for which of the 30k signatures the nonce starts with 9 zero bits. Makes sense now.
If I'm understanding correctly, the difference is between knowing you have 60 and having to try (30000!/(60! * (30000 - 60)!) combinations and seeing if they worked, which is quite a few.
I mean the write up indicates you'd need access to the server side, or the pageant with the private key loaded, which both seem to be like... umm... at that point don't we have bigger issues?
Not sure about the pageant part, but it's a major problem when connecting to a compromised server leaks the client's private key.
(For example, if an attacker has compromised server A and you connect to it, they can now use your key to connect to server B which you also use)
(For example, if an attacker has compromised server A and you connect to it, they can now use your key to connect to server B which you also use)
Now I feel better for never using the same key for different servers.
Good thing everyone uses the defaults and never picks that type of key!
I did a bit of a deep dive into this, in case anyone is interested. I think reading the code is a great way to understand _why_ this vulnerability happened:
https://ericrafaloff.com/your-putty-generated-nist-p-521-key...
https://ericrafaloff.com/your-putty-generated-nist-p-521-key...
Your title says "PuTTY-Generated" but the OP article says "The problem is not with how the key was originally generated; it doesn't matter whether it came from PuTTYgen or somewhere else. What matters is whether it was ever used with PuTTY or Pageant".
Good catch! I wrote the title before I had dug into the matter and forgot to update it. Thanks for pointing that out.
Any k generation and subsequent signature generation are going to be impacted.
Any k generation and subsequent signature generation are going to be impacted.
The answer being, per that post: author was worried about low quality randomness on Windows and ran it through a sha512 hash function which outputs fewer than 521 bits so the remaining ones will be left zero
Updated link with corrected title: https://ericrafaloff.com/biased-nonce-generation-in-putty-fo...
Thank you. Your writeup helped make it click!
I use P521 for all my server host keys. Do these need to be rotated after my users upgrade their PuTTY clients?
This exposed client keys, not server keys. The client keys are at risk only in a handful of specific scenarios - e.g., if used to connect to rogue or compromised servers, or used for signing outside SSH.
This is not exploitable by simply passively watching traffic, so even for client keys, if you're certain that they were used in a constrained way, you should be fine. The difficulty is knowing that for sure, so it's still prudent to rotate.
This is not exploitable by simply passively watching traffic, so even for client keys, if you're certain that they were used in a constrained way, you should be fine. The difficulty is knowing that for sure, so it's still prudent to rotate.
No, only NIST P-521 client keys used with PuTTY are affected. The server host key signature is computed by the server (most likely OpenSSH) which is unaffected.
> (The problem is not with how the key was originally generated; it doesn't matter whether it came from PuTTYgen or somewhere else. What matters is whether it was ever used with PuTTY or Pageant.)
Sounds like your server keys are safe.
Sounds like your server keys are safe.
I mean it also sounds like you'd need to be using a exploited server, or give the hacker access to your pageant...
[deleted]
A complete aside, but I just realised that putty is named after the old fashioned adhesive clay used to cement window panes into the frames of windows.
PuTTY… Windows… gosh I feel dumb. I’ve used putty for almost 25 years but didn’t put two and two together until I just remembered how the pheasants in my garden would peck out the window putty to get at the ladybirds hibernating underneath.
PuTTY… Windows… gosh I feel dumb. I’ve used putty for almost 25 years but didn’t put two and two together until I just remembered how the pheasants in my garden would peck out the window putty to get at the ladybirds hibernating underneath.
https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/faq.html#...
> What does ‘PuTTY’ mean?
> It's the name of a popular SSH and Telnet client. Any other meaning is in the eye of the beholder. It's been rumoured that ‘PuTTY’ is the antonym of ‘getty’, or that it's the stuff that makes your Windows useful, or that it's a kind of plutonium Teletype. We couldn't possibly comment on such allegations.
> What does ‘PuTTY’ mean?
> It's the name of a popular SSH and Telnet client. Any other meaning is in the eye of the beholder. It's been rumoured that ‘PuTTY’ is the antonym of ‘getty’, or that it's the stuff that makes your Windows useful, or that it's a kind of plutonium Teletype. We couldn't possibly comment on such allegations.
This is a human bias to assume that there must be some deeper meaning behind things.
If you haven't already, this is probably a good time to switch to EdDSA keys. EdDSA signatures don't require RNG nor modular math unlike ECSDA signatures.
EdDSA signatures are specified to use deterministic nonce generation, so you're correct that they do not require randomness. But they certainly do require modular arithmetic in order to implement the elliptic curve operations!
Despite being fairly old, many systems still don't support eddsa. As an example, the reference browser/ca spec doesn't allow it: https://cabforum.org/working-groups/server/baseline-requirem.... Last I tried, even let's encrypt won't grant an ed25519 cert despite it being in tls 1.3 (2018?).
> Last I tried, even let's encrypt won't grant an ed25519 cert despite it being in tls 1.3 (2018?).
Talk to the CA/Browser Forum. §6.1.5 Keys Sizes:
> For RSA key pairs the CA SHALL:
> * Ensure that the modulus size, when encoded, is at least 2048 bits, and;
> * Ensure that the modulus size, in bits, is evenly divisible by 8.
> For ECDSA key pairs, the CA SHALL:
> * Ensure that the key represents a valid point on the NIST P-256, NIST P-384 or NIST P-521 elliptic curve.
> No other algorithms or key sizes are permitted.
* https://cabforum.org/uploads/CA-Browser-Forum-TLS-BRs-v2.0.2...
* https://cabforum.org/working-groups/server/baseline-requirem...
Ed25519 (and Ed448) was only 'recently' approved by NIST FIPS 186-5 in February 2023.
Talk to the CA/Browser Forum. §6.1.5 Keys Sizes:
> For RSA key pairs the CA SHALL:
> * Ensure that the modulus size, when encoded, is at least 2048 bits, and;
> * Ensure that the modulus size, in bits, is evenly divisible by 8.
> For ECDSA key pairs, the CA SHALL:
> * Ensure that the key represents a valid point on the NIST P-256, NIST P-384 or NIST P-521 elliptic curve.
> No other algorithms or key sizes are permitted.
* https://cabforum.org/uploads/CA-Browser-Forum-TLS-BRs-v2.0.2...
* https://cabforum.org/working-groups/server/baseline-requirem...
Ed25519 (and Ed448) was only 'recently' approved by NIST FIPS 186-5 in February 2023.
Then make your own CA.
I don’t think RNG or modular math were really the culprits here. PuTTY’s k value generation is deterministic and the biasing was caused by a mismatch of integer sizes and the resulting leading zeros. The offending operation is named mod, so that’s related to modular arithmetic, but the modulo (521 bits) was bigger than the SHA512 output (512 bits) from deterministic k generation. I linked earlier to a post where I break this down at the source code level.
ECDSA strikes again. Bad nonce generation (here: generating a 521 bit nonce by calculating a 512 bit number and then taking that modulo 2^521, which means the top bits of the nonce are always zero) leading to private key compromise. Classic.
Details in the excellent commit message https://git.tartarus.org/?p=simon/putty.git;a=commitdiff;h=c...
Yes, although this is the rare ECDSA private key recovery issue where deterministic nonce generation was the cause of rather than the solution to the problem.
Is there any way to check for how an SSH key was generated and with what type?
ssh-keygen -l -f <file>
It says the key may have been lost if it had ever been used with Putty. If you have keys of this type and have ever used Putty you should revoke them.
I use pageant as my SSH Agent and WSL to access it through ssh-agent. I only used to generate Keys with Putty, (Puttygen), but reverted to standard Linux `ssh-keygen` in the last 2-3 years.
I am still wondering what the exact steps are to show the key type.
I am still wondering what the exact steps are to show the key type.
I believe ssh-keygen -t ecdsa -b 521 pub keys will have ecdsa-sha2-nistp521 in plaintext at the start. I don't know how to tell from the priv key.
And I think converted key pairs in Putty format (.ppk) will have PuTTY-User-Key-File-2: ecdsa-sha2-nistp521 in plaintext.
For Pageant you should be able to select view keys from the system tray icon context menu and it should show the key type in the list.
For ssh-agent I think ssh-add -L should list the public keys (with key type) in the same format as the authorized_keys file
I'm not an expert, so if anyone is please correct me where I'm wrong!
And I think converted key pairs in Putty format (.ppk) will have PuTTY-User-Key-File-2: ecdsa-sha2-nistp521 in plaintext.
For Pageant you should be able to select view keys from the system tray icon context menu and it should show the key type in the list.
For ssh-agent I think ssh-add -L should list the public keys (with key type) in the same format as the authorized_keys file
I'm not an expert, so if anyone is please correct me where I'm wrong!
You can look in the key file. From the OP:
"has an id starting ecdsa-sha2-nistp521 in [...] the key file" He also mentions some other places the information shows up.
"has an id starting ecdsa-sha2-nistp521 in [...] the key file" He also mentions some other places the information shows up.
Ah, yes - there it is (in KeePass/KeeAgent, under `Advanced`, click on the private key file (*.ppk) and then on Open > Internal Viewer).
> PuTTY-User-Key-File-2: ssh-rsa..Encryption: aes256-cbc
Indeed I seem to have used Puttygen in the past.
For keys from Linux ssh-keygen, the private key starts with:
> -----BEGIN OPENSSH PRIVATE KEY-----
and the public key starts with
> ssh-ed25519
> PuTTY-User-Key-File-2: ssh-rsa..Encryption: aes256-cbc
Indeed I seem to have used Puttygen in the past.
For keys from Linux ssh-keygen, the private key starts with:
> -----BEGIN OPENSSH PRIVATE KEY-----
and the public key starts with
> ssh-ed25519
When WSL came out, I moved away from PuTTY/KiTTY in favor of simply using SSH in Windows Terminal via WSL.
For the curious, an implementation of the attack:
https://github.com/daedalus/BreakingECDSAwithLLL
I knew requiring public key authentication *followed by* password authentication on my SSH server was not paranoid!
I suspect it won't help. If your key is compromised, the previous sessions are compromised as well. I.e. the attacker now knows the password.
There is no indication or mention that key exchange was compromised. SSH has forward secrecy, so compromising the authentication keys does not compromise the encryption keys.
Are people using password only at risk?
Not at this risk, but possibly others. Requiring both is always better.
edit: ignore below, I misinterpreted what q meant in this context and thought it was the private key.
>The clever trick is to compute a secure hash whose input includes the message to be signed and also the private key [...]
> PuTTY's technique worked by making a SHA-512 hash, and then reducing it mod q, where q is the order of the group used in the DSA system. For integer DSA (for which PuTTY's technique was originally developed), q is about 160 bits; for elliptic-curve DSA (which came later) it has about the same number of bits as the curve modulus, so 256 or 384 or 521 bits for the NIST curves.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but why did PuTTY implement it this way to begin with? Given the description in the first paragraph, I'd naively implemented it as
>The clever trick is to compute a secure hash whose input includes the message to be signed and also the private key [...]
> PuTTY's technique worked by making a SHA-512 hash, and then reducing it mod q, where q is the order of the group used in the DSA system. For integer DSA (for which PuTTY's technique was originally developed), q is about 160 bits; for elliptic-curve DSA (which came later) it has about the same number of bits as the curve modulus, so 256 or 384 or 521 bits for the NIST curves.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but why did PuTTY implement it this way to begin with? Given the description in the first paragraph, I'd naively implemented it as
SHA-512(message || private_key)[:number_of_bits_required]
SHA-512(SHA-512(message) || SHA-512(private_key))[:number_of_bits_required]
SHA-512(...)[:521] would still produce the same vulnerability, there would be 9 unchanging bits (assuming the [:521] would pad the 512 bits to 521). Those 9 guessable bits are enough to recover the key from 60 signatures, as the post explained in detail.
A more interesting question (while we are on the 20/20 hindsight express) is why the dsa_gen_k() function did not include an assert(digest_len <= 512).
A more interesting question (while we are on the 20/20 hindsight express) is why the dsa_gen_k() function did not include an assert(digest_len <= 512).
It appears that some of this was designed in the late 90s/early aughts, when Windows didn't have a cryptographically-secure random number generator.
PuTTY carries its own formats from this time.
PuTTY carries its own formats from this time.
You don't need a CSPRNG to do SHA512, which their solution already incorporates.
This is the text from the original article.
"For this reason, since PuTTY was developed on Windows before it had any cryptographic random number generator at all, PuTTY has always generated its k using a deterministic method, avoiding the need for random numbers at all."
"For this reason, since PuTTY was developed on Windows before it had any cryptographic random number generator at all, PuTTY has always generated its k using a deterministic method, avoiding the need for random numbers at all."
Both my proposed naive method and the PuTTY implementation are deterministic. The only difference is how the primitives (eg. SHA-512) are combined.
The problem is that 521 > 512, not that they used modulo. To get a sufficiently large nonce out of the hash, you need to think in terms of expanding the number of bits, not reducing it.
Ah okay, after re-reading the message it looks like using the SHA-512 result directly (without modulo) would still have the issue. I originally thought the problem was moduloing by the key, which was approximately 521 bits
> In all of those cases except P521, the bias introduced by reducing a 512-bit number mod q is negligible. But in the case of P521, where q has 521 bits (i.e. more than 512), reducing a 512-bit number mod q has no effect at all – you get a value of k whose top 9 bits are always zero.
> In all of those cases except P521, the bias introduced by reducing a 512-bit number mod q is negligible. But in the case of P521, where q has 521 bits (i.e. more than 512), reducing a 512-bit number mod q has no effect at all – you get a value of k whose top 9 bits are always zero.
[deleted]
You'd want something like this:
Even better, though, is to just use RFC 6979 and not implement it yourself.
Truncate(
SHA-512(0x01 || message || private_key)
|| SHA-512(0x02 || message || private_key),
bitsNeeded
)
Even better, though, is to just use RFC 6979 and not implement it yourself.
Presumably because 512 of bits (a) seemed "random enough" and (b) was the nicest block size that fit comfortably in 521 bits of modulus. This is a common mistake.
From TFA it seems more like they already had the SHA512-based implementation for DSA (where it was fine), and reused it when implementing ECDSA without realizing that it wasn't suitable in situations with moduli larger than 512 bits.
I'd have to look at the code, but a DSA modulus is much larger than a P-521 modulus. Maybe it just happened to line up nicely?
The nonce is taken modulo the order of the prime-order subgroup. For DSA that's generally a 256ish-bit prime (e.g.: choose a 1024-bit prime p such that a 256-bit prime q divides p-1; then there exists an order-q subgroup of Zp).
For P-521, the base field is 2^521 - 1, but the modulus used when computing the nonce is not that value, it's the order of the P-521 curve. By Hasse's theorem, that's roughly p +- sqrt(p), which is essentially p for such large numbers (the cofactor of P-521 is 1, so the order of the group is prime).
So: both are 521-bit numbers, but the group order is less than 2^521-1. Its hex representation is 0x01fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffa51868783bf2f966b7fcc0148f709a5d03bb5c9b8899c47aebb6fb71e91386409.
For P-521, the base field is 2^521 - 1, but the modulus used when computing the nonce is not that value, it's the order of the P-521 curve. By Hasse's theorem, that's roughly p +- sqrt(p), which is essentially p for such large numbers (the cofactor of P-521 is 1, so the order of the group is prime).
So: both are 521-bit numbers, but the group order is less than 2^521-1. Its hex representation is 0x01fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffa51868783bf2f966b7fcc0148f709a5d03bb5c9b8899c47aebb6fb71e91386409.
Ahh. Thanks! (I don't think about FFDLP much, as you can see).
Isn't modulo the same as truncation when dealing with powers of two?
Caution here. If your modulus is too close to the maximum truncated value, there can be a bias in the upper bits, too. For example, if you reduce a number between 0 and 15 by the modulus 13, the values 0, 1 and 2 will be twice as likely as the values 3-12. This means that the highest bit will be 0 in 11 out of 16 cases. Even such a small bias might be exploitable (for example, sub 1 bit bias up to 160-bit ECDSA here: Gao, Wang, Hu, He https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/296.pdf)
Neither 15 nor 13 are powers of two.
The interval [0, 15] represent 16 possible values, which is a power of 2.
The correct way to get an unbiased distribution from a sample of 2^x to a modulo that is not an even power of 2 is to use rejection sampling.
This is what RFC 6979 says to do https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6979#section-3.2
But you can also see this technique in CSPRNG code; i.e. https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/d40726670fd2915dcd807673...
The correct way to get an unbiased distribution from a sample of 2^x to a modulo that is not an even power of 2 is to use rejection sampling.
This is what RFC 6979 says to do https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6979#section-3.2
But you can also see this technique in CSPRNG code; i.e. https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/d40726670fd2915dcd807673...
I missed it was [0,15]
This doesn't make 13 a power of two. I'm aware of rejection sampling; my point was if you have a N bit value X and want M bits, truncating X to M bits and X MOD 2*M is the same. Neither solve the problem where M > N, which is what TFA is about.
This doesn't make 13 a power of two. I'm aware of rejection sampling; my point was if you have a N bit value X and want M bits, truncating X to M bits and X MOD 2*M is the same. Neither solve the problem where M > N, which is what TFA is about.
> This doesn't make 13 a power of two.
Where did I imply that it is?
> I'm aware of rejection sampling; my point was if you have a N bit value X and want M bits, truncating X to M bits and X MOD 2*M is the same.
Sure.
> Neither solve the problem where M > N, which is what TFA is about.
If you observe my other comments, you'll see I'm well aware of what the article is about.
Where did I imply that it is?
> I'm aware of rejection sampling; my point was if you have a N bit value X and want M bits, truncating X to M bits and X MOD 2*M is the same.
Sure.
> Neither solve the problem where M > N, which is what TFA is about.
If you observe my other comments, you'll see I'm well aware of what the article is about.
> Where did I imply that it is?
You used 13 as an example in a response to my comment that was:
Isn't modulo the same as truncation when dealing with powers of two?
You used 13 as an example in a response to my comment that was:
Isn't modulo the same as truncation when dealing with powers of two?
> You used 13 as an example
I don't see the number 13 in any of my comments on this thread (except this one, or where I quoted you). Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?
I don't see the number 13 in any of my comments on this thread (except this one, or where I quoted you). Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?
Ah yes, that was lambdafu
But 16 is.
Good point. I misread the OP and thought q was the key, but really it just corresponded to the key length (eg. 521 for p521)
[deleted]
I have keys that start with ssh-ed25519, made by puttygen. Are those safe?
The answer is in the link. Sixth paragraph, right above the horizontal rule. Couldn't be clearer.
To those wondering:
(Incidentally, none of this affects Ed25519. The spec for that system includes its own idea of how you should do deterministic nonce generation - completely different again, naturally - and we did it that way rather than our way, so that we could use the existing test vectors.)[deleted]
CVE-2024-31497
Cool, I never use keys generated by putty, so I'm good. I only use keys generated by and stored on hardware tokens like yubikeys and openpgp smartcards.
Edit: To clarify further, the key in that case is not even handled by putty. All crypto ops are done on the token and the private key never leaves it. It can't be exported even because that defeats the purpose of using a hardware token. So putty will just tell the token or smartcard what to sign and the token returns the output.
That's why it's safe against this attack. Putty never handles the private key material in this scenario. So I never imported the private key in putty or pageant and I couldn't even if I wanted to. The agent just declares the public keys on the token.
I see all the downvotes but I didn't explain it properly. I've been using smart cards so long that these things are kinda a given for me.
I can really recommend doing it this way or doing the more modern fido2 auth. Hardware authentication is amazing and it even works on Android over nfc these days.
The biggest vulnerability I see is the issue of malware connecting to the unlocked token via the SSH agent, but I'm only using tokens that have touch to sign for this reason. They require a touch on the token for every operation.
Edit: To clarify further, the key in that case is not even handled by putty. All crypto ops are done on the token and the private key never leaves it. It can't be exported even because that defeats the purpose of using a hardware token. So putty will just tell the token or smartcard what to sign and the token returns the output.
That's why it's safe against this attack. Putty never handles the private key material in this scenario. So I never imported the private key in putty or pageant and I couldn't even if I wanted to. The agent just declares the public keys on the token.
I see all the downvotes but I didn't explain it properly. I've been using smart cards so long that these things are kinda a given for me.
I can really recommend doing it this way or doing the more modern fido2 auth. Hardware authentication is amazing and it even works on Android over nfc these days.
The biggest vulnerability I see is the issue of malware connecting to the unlocked token via the SSH agent, but I'm only using tokens that have touch to sign for this reason. They require a touch on the token for every operation.
From the article:
> (The problem is not with how the key was originally generated; it doesn't matter whether it came from PuTTYgen or somewhere else. What matters is whether it was ever used with PuTTY or Pageant.)
> (The problem is not with how the key was originally generated; it doesn't matter whether it came from PuTTYgen or somewhere else. What matters is whether it was ever used with PuTTY or Pageant.)
Smartcards do signing operations on the card itself, so it doesn't apply in this case.
Thanks for pointing this out. I know this but I didn't clarify it in my post.
Edit: beat to it, whoops! Never underestimate the Internet’s drive to post easy corrections >.>
——
Unfortunately, about that:
“(The problem is not with how the key was originally generated; it doesn't matter whether it came from PuTTYgen or somewhere else. What matters is whether it was ever used with PuTTY or Pageant.)”
——
Unfortunately, about that:
“(The problem is not with how the key was originally generated; it doesn't matter whether it came from PuTTYgen or somewhere else. What matters is whether it was ever used with PuTTY or Pageant.)”
Yes but the key is not handled by putty. It never leaves the token, the token carries out all crypto ops on the key itself. I've updated my comment to clarify.
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Friendly reminder you can entirely disable elliptic curve algorithms in your sshd_config and generate rsa keys larger than 4096 bits, 8192 or however large you like work just fine.
I have never trusted EC crypto because of all the magic involved with it, a sufficient reason to move from RSA has never been presented with compelling evidence as far as I am concerned. I do not care that it is faster, i prefer slow and secure to fast and complicated. It's a lot easier to explain RSA and why it's secure than the mile long justifications on curve crypto. The issue doesn't need to be in the algorithm, if the implementation is sufficiently difficult that works just as well as an intentionally misdesigned algorithm.
I have never trusted EC crypto because of all the magic involved with it, a sufficient reason to move from RSA has never been presented with compelling evidence as far as I am concerned. I do not care that it is faster, i prefer slow and secure to fast and complicated. It's a lot easier to explain RSA and why it's secure than the mile long justifications on curve crypto. The issue doesn't need to be in the algorithm, if the implementation is sufficiently difficult that works just as well as an intentionally misdesigned algorithm.
The benefit of EC is not speed, it is much smaller key sizes.
Roughly speaking, an RSA key has to be 8 times as large as an EC key for the same security level.
Roughly speaking, an RSA key has to be 8 times as large as an EC key for the same security level.
Yeah I never bought into the EC thing much either.
It's supposed to be safer against quantum but it's also a lot less proven.
It's supposed to be safer against quantum but it's also a lot less proven.
Actually, with currently common key sizes, ECC up to 384 bits will fall to QC before RSA with 1024 bits, because fewer bits means fewer qubits needed.
The main disadvantage of RSA is the structure of finite fields, which allows specialized solutions to factoring (number field sieve). We do not know similar structures for elliptic curves, so for those we only have general attacks, thus allowing shorter key lengths.
The main disadvantage of RSA is the structure of finite fields, which allows specialized solutions to factoring (number field sieve). We do not know similar structures for elliptic curves, so for those we only have general attacks, thus allowing shorter key lengths.
We recommend against ECDSA for internal accounts. I know several of our partners use it though. Hard to not be cynical about this even though this issue seems mostly harmless.
NSA disagrees...
One time putty took down our prod rac cluster on Xmas eve, and I spent three days fixing it..
One of the on call engineers had copied some documentation to his clipboard which had like:
Dbfile 1 location > /u01/ora/whatever
And accidentally right clicked…
I absolutely blame that software for ruining my Christmas one year, and I can’t really forgive it.
Please use OpenSSH.
One of the on call engineers had copied some documentation to his clipboard which had like:
Dbfile 1 location > /u01/ora/whatever
And accidentally right clicked…
I absolutely blame that software for ruining my Christmas one year, and I can’t really forgive it.
Please use OpenSSH.
You say that like an accidental middle click from e.g. xterm would be any better.
Recent gnome-terminal handles these much more safely. If you paste in a newline, whether from primary or clipboard, the terminal puts a newline into your command, but doesn't press enter for you.
> terminal puts a newline into your command, but doesn't press enter for you.
I'm having difficulty imagining this. I know of some who warn on multiline paste, but how exactly is it possible to "put a newline" but not "press enter"? Just emit a newline as output without sending as input?
I'm having difficulty imagining this. I know of some who warn on multiline paste, but how exactly is it possible to "put a newline" but not "press enter"? Just emit a newline as output without sending as input?
You can do this without pasting. Ctrl-Q Ctrl-J at the bash prompt inserts a newline into the command line without executing it. This is useful for multiline scripting commands.
That's a readline feature (quoted insert C-q). So the terminal is smart enough to detect readline and then quote the newlines?
Neither gnome-terminal nor bash link against readline. I'm pretty sure they just copied the feature; it's not that they use readline in any way.
There's lots of other programs that use C-q for quoting, for example emacs, and readline probably copied it from there in the first place.
When pasting text, it's a different code path than quoting. The terminal surely knows when text is being pasted. If nothing else, a simple heuristic based on typing speed is enough to tell apart typing and pasting.
There's lots of other programs that use C-q for quoting, for example emacs, and readline probably copied it from there in the first place.
When pasting text, it's a different code path than quoting. The terminal surely knows when text is being pasted. If nothing else, a simple heuristic based on typing speed is enough to tell apart typing and pasting.
[deleted]
I investigated some more and this is called "bracketed paste" and both the program and terminal must support it (program must enable it). https://invisible-island.net/xterm/xterm-paste64.html
[deleted]
Because pasting in OpenSSH doesn’t work?
nowadays on my Linux terminal if I paste anything containing a newline (which in the past would cause the commands to execute) I get a pop up asking me to confirm
Really saves you from the websites putting paragraphs of malicious code into seemingly a single simple line
Really saves you from the websites putting paragraphs of malicious code into seemingly a single simple line
I have a physical standby server for precisely this reason.
This same action in Microsoft terminal would also have had the same outcome.
This same action in Microsoft terminal would also have had the same outcome.
>One time putty took down our prod rac cluster on Xmas eve...
A literal PEBCAK issue, not a putty issue.
A literal PEBCAK issue, not a putty issue.
I LOATHE cybersecurity.
I wish governments would have some kind of enforceable ISO standard on it, where it would be required by law for source code to be properly validated, either by a compiler or linter or by a third party, where an insurance company would be financially liable if a CVS is found.
I feel like it is the only real way to improve cybersecurity in serious manner. There is so much software in the world that it has become a national security problem.
Of course one issue with this, is that as long as the NSA is obviously a leader in cybersecurity, they would rather have software used outside of the US to be less secure, but with time, that strategy might also cause problems.
I don't have a problem being spied on by western government, but if low security causes bad state actors or other criminal to cause problems, then that's bad.
I wish governments would have some kind of enforceable ISO standard on it, where it would be required by law for source code to be properly validated, either by a compiler or linter or by a third party, where an insurance company would be financially liable if a CVS is found.
I feel like it is the only real way to improve cybersecurity in serious manner. There is so much software in the world that it has become a national security problem.
Of course one issue with this, is that as long as the NSA is obviously a leader in cybersecurity, they would rather have software used outside of the US to be less secure, but with time, that strategy might also cause problems.
I don't have a problem being spied on by western government, but if low security causes bad state actors or other criminal to cause problems, then that's bad.
Your points seem a little off topic as this isn't about proprietary payware with obvious security deficiencies. This is a subtle cryptographic issue in a high quality Free and Open Source software package.
I agree though that market pressures aren't always enough to motivate adequate investment in cybersecurity. A recent case involving D-Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39960107
I agree though that market pressures aren't always enough to motivate adequate investment in cybersecurity. A recent case involving D-Link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39960107
That sounds like a great way to kill all OSS.
The problem here is the distinction between an n-bit random number and n-bit modulus. In DSA, if you're working with a 521-bit modulus, and you need a random k value for it, k needs to be random across all 521-bits.
Systems programming intuition tells you that a 512-bit random number is, to within mind-boggling tolerances, as unguessable as a 521-bit random number. But that's not the point. A 512 bit modulus leaves 9 zero bits, which are legible to cryptanalysis as bias. In the DSA/ECDSA equation, this reduces through linear algebra to the Hidden Number Problem, solvable over some number of sample signatures for the private key using CVP.
Later
Here you go, from Sean Devlin's Cryptopals Set 8:
https://cryptopals.com/sets/8/challenges/62.txt