Becoming an Amateur Polyglot(lesswrong.com)
lesswrong.com
Becoming an Amateur Polyglot
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/BPpeBH8brSCRvZajs/how-to-be-an-amateur-polyglot
110 comments
> You may find yourself having to learn to think in a new way literally.
I've said for a few years now my personality is slightly different when I speak English. I have a partner of several years that doesn't speak my language nor me hers and we communicate in English and even simple things like expressing affection feel different even after a decade.
At some point since I speak more English every day than my own language when I switched to "thinking in English" (not on purpose) I remember feeling very sad, having almost lost a part of me, and I spent some time trying to think what impact it was having on my own actions and behaviors.
Nothing major, but I am more assertive and outspoken in English than in my native language because things don't feel so "real" to say, so it's easier to not feel scared.
I feel very strange sharing this because when I tried I got strange looks but maybe someone recognizes themselves in this too.
I've said for a few years now my personality is slightly different when I speak English. I have a partner of several years that doesn't speak my language nor me hers and we communicate in English and even simple things like expressing affection feel different even after a decade.
At some point since I speak more English every day than my own language when I switched to "thinking in English" (not on purpose) I remember feeling very sad, having almost lost a part of me, and I spent some time trying to think what impact it was having on my own actions and behaviors.
Nothing major, but I am more assertive and outspoken in English than in my native language because things don't feel so "real" to say, so it's easier to not feel scared.
I feel very strange sharing this because when I tried I got strange looks but maybe someone recognizes themselves in this too.
Living the same life. 10 years speaking English with a non English speaking partner and I can say I now fully think in English and in many aspects my English is better than my native language.
Could never put words on it but things don’t feel so real either.
The funniest part is now I speak my native language with my small kids and have fully relapsed to my original home town accent. I had abolished that accent years ago to avoid getting bullied at high school after relocating to a big city.
My kids are actively hearing and speaking 4 languages and one is with a thick accent!
Could never put words on it but things don’t feel so real either.
The funniest part is now I speak my native language with my small kids and have fully relapsed to my original home town accent. I had abolished that accent years ago to avoid getting bullied at high school after relocating to a big city.
My kids are actively hearing and speaking 4 languages and one is with a thick accent!
> 10 years speaking English with a non English speaking partner
Did you mean to say your partner doesn't speak your native language, or how does that work?
Did you mean to say your partner doesn't speak your native language, or how does that work?
I thought that was a pretty common thing to feel? I mean, the different personality thing. I had never thought about things not feeling so real... I'm gonna definitely meditate on that one for a while
I also got sad when i started replacing my native language with English in my thoughts, and pushed myself to think in Spanish again, have more Spanish speakers around me etc. since i no longer live where i learned my native language, i speak a somewhat "foreign" to myself version of it, which introduced a new type of sadness - that of not being recognised as a local in your own home, losing a specific kind of personality that's bound to a specific place- but that's one I've learned to live with
This certainly resonates with me. In my professional environment I use my third language, and, while it takes more thought to express myself, I am more assertive and open simply because the words carry "less" weight to me. Another positive side is that I'm more difficult to offend or upset.
Sometimes I translate in my head what I just said back to my native language and realise that chances are I wouldn't have said it if I had to actually say it in my native language.
It's weird. It's also not something I think about on a daily basis. It's simply how it works.
Sometimes I translate in my head what I just said back to my native language and realise that chances are I wouldn't have said it if I had to actually say it in my native language.
It's weird. It's also not something I think about on a daily basis. It's simply how it works.
Javier Bardem recently said the exact same thing, in terms of English being an easier language for him to perform in because it's not as real to him as Spanish.
With English you get to lose nuances and to simplify your thoughts.
As a result, you cannot put exact words on your emotions or your thoughts and you start to think and feel differently (and not in a nicer way).
Hm.. I feel no difference there between my native language and English. I use the latter every day, and everything I read (and I read a lot) is in English - I've only read two books in my native language the last thirty years or so. I don't feel any difference in how I can express myself.
However: I am kind of a different person when I speak English. My personality changes. Not for the worse though (and that's where I don't agree with the "and not in a nicer way", that's not how it is for me).
However: I am kind of a different person when I speak English. My personality changes. Not for the worse though (and that's where I don't agree with the "and not in a nicer way", that's not how it is for me).
English is one of the languages on earth with by far the most words, and with some of the most extraordinary writers. You can give as much nuance as you want.
The problem is that, as a non-native speaker, the words carry less emotional weight somehow than my native language. This is not specific to English, and it's not because of a lack of familiarity. It's most visible in swear words - I have no problem saying any swear word in English, while I still get slightly squeamish with certain swear words in my native language.
It's basically a part of how you can't really absorb certain cultural aspects of a language, even if you learn about them. They're never going to be a part of your own internal culture if you didn't grow up with them.
The problem is that, as a non-native speaker, the words carry less emotional weight somehow than my native language. This is not specific to English, and it's not because of a lack of familiarity. It's most visible in swear words - I have no problem saying any swear word in English, while I still get slightly squeamish with certain swear words in my native language.
It's basically a part of how you can't really absorb certain cultural aspects of a language, even if you learn about them. They're never going to be a part of your own internal culture if you didn't grow up with them.
Once you learn, how do you maintain the language? I'm currently in Brazil speaking Portuguese a lot. I used to speak more Spanish. Right now, if I want to switch back to Spanish it takes me a lot of time. They're so similar I still keep on mixing them up quite often. I even started a small project (https://glot.space) to try to keep training vocabulary in two languages at the same time to keep the distinction in my brain.
It is hard when they are such close languages! But maintaining is always hard. I compare it to building with clay while it's mildly raining. You need to keep re building chunks that fall off what you've built. Eventually some chunks dry enough that they are solid forever and you use them as a base to keep going.
I don't think you need to put a lot of time and effort in maintenance but you do have to put some with certain regularity
I’m working on phrasing.app partially to solve this problem. My solutions are:
- study flashcards from l3 <-> l4 to cut down on time - practice switching between the languages and distinguishing between them (I use interleaved flashcards on phrasing) - have a really painless audio review (to get a lot of your reviews done quickly) - listen to input every now and then (tv, podcast, something). A little bit every now and then goes a long way
- study flashcards from l3 <-> l4 to cut down on time - practice switching between the languages and distinguishing between them (I use interleaved flashcards on phrasing) - have a really painless audio review (to get a lot of your reviews done quickly) - listen to input every now and then (tv, podcast, something). A little bit every now and then goes a long way
OP here. I'll just say what I'm currently doing. I read a book in french , a second book in Spanish and I'm watching an Italian tv series on Netflix. Doesn't have to be more than 10mins per language per day. The only way you don't forget a language is to reach a high level. Even if I don't speak Spanish for months I won't forget it. But I'll surely forget Italian.
I can disagree about same family languages. I think the jury is out because you get very confused exactly because of the similarities and can end up speaking "itagnol" or "portunol" etc which is the nightmare of Italian or Brazilian immigrants. It can be easier in grammar for sure.
Exactly, there is a point when proximity between languages means that instead of acquiring a new language, one of your existing languages morphs into the language you are trying to acquire.
I have seen great counter examples of people that could partition their mental spaces and isolate the languages properly.
I had one Spanish teacher in Brazil that could do this. I’m sure she had proper training.
I also had a Spanish friend and her mother was complaining that she was forgetting her home language because she was living in Brazil for some time. This is the most common thing to happen.
Interestingly, as she was telling me this after visiting Spain for about a month, I was having more trouble understanding her than usual, it can go both ways.
I have seen great counter examples of people that could partition their mental spaces and isolate the languages properly.
I had one Spanish teacher in Brazil that could do this. I’m sure she had proper training.
I also had a Spanish friend and her mother was complaining that she was forgetting her home language because she was living in Brazil for some time. This is the most common thing to happen.
Interestingly, as she was telling me this after visiting Spain for about a month, I was having more trouble understanding her than usual, it can go both ways.
>You may find yourself having to learn to think in a new way literally.
Like that Alan Perlis quote about programming languages.
Like that Alan Perlis quote about programming languages.
> ...OR Series in target language and subtitles in English or native language...
In the ever-growing geo-restrictions world, this is no longer as easy as it was in the days of yore.
For example, if you're learning Norwegian and you want to watch anything on NRK, you need to get a BankId[1] - for which you need to be a resident _in_ Norway to have.
The alternative, of course, is buying DVDs/Blu-Rays on Amazon -- but you have to know what you want to watch and what is "good" before buying it.
[1] - https://tv.nrk.no/direkte/nrk1
In the ever-growing geo-restrictions world, this is no longer as easy as it was in the days of yore.
For example, if you're learning Norwegian and you want to watch anything on NRK, you need to get a BankId[1] - for which you need to be a resident _in_ Norway to have.
The alternative, of course, is buying DVDs/Blu-Rays on Amazon -- but you have to know what you want to watch and what is "good" before buying it.
[1] - https://tv.nrk.no/direkte/nrk1
It's not a geo restriction problem. It's a distribution rights problem. NRK doesn't own the right to distribute what they have worldwide, they bought limited local distribution rights. Why would local broadcasters buy the worldwide license ?
It's the producers of the tv shows which need to license their product to a worldwide broadcaster. NRK is only georestricting because the licenses forbids them from not doing it.
I talk about this very often because I'm learning a language. To me the easiest and best options is to watch series produced by the streaming platforms. They own their worldwide rights so they can let anyone anywhere watch any show in any language.
I'm talking about Prime and Netflix originals. But the absolute best streaming platform to learn a language is Disney+. Every content on Disney+ is available in all languages it was translated too, from anywhere. It absolutely changed my life.
It's the producers of the tv shows which need to license their product to a worldwide broadcaster. NRK is only georestricting because the licenses forbids them from not doing it.
I talk about this very often because I'm learning a language. To me the easiest and best options is to watch series produced by the streaming platforms. They own their worldwide rights so they can let anyone anywhere watch any show in any language.
I'm talking about Prime and Netflix originals. But the absolute best streaming platform to learn a language is Disney+. Every content on Disney+ is available in all languages it was translated too, from anywhere. It absolutely changed my life.
> NRK is only georestricting because the licenses forbids them from not doing it.
I would be more inclined to say that they're doing it to be "safe". For example, their immediate neighbour, Sweden, has a selection "Kan ses utomlands"[2] -- which, roughly, means can see outside of the country.
Presumably, like elsewhere in the world, not everything NRK is showing is licensed only for Norway.
To the original point: The issue isn't that BankId is being used, it's saying you can just watch the originals, in their mother-tongue (person-tongue?).
For example, NRK produces some originals, like Vikingane[3] that eventually became Norsemen[4] on Netflix.
Clearly, that's been licensed for semi-global (if not global) consumption via Netflix; however, as you can see from the NRK link, you still need to login via BankId to watch it in it's original form.
Again: None of this is a problem, per se, but saying that one can just watch original shows - in their original language - isn't congruent at all with reality, these days.
[2] - https://www.svt.se/kontakt/anvand-svt-play-utomlands
[3] - https://tv.nrk.no/serie/vikingane
[4] - https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80180182
Edit: List formatting fix.
I would be more inclined to say that they're doing it to be "safe". For example, their immediate neighbour, Sweden, has a selection "Kan ses utomlands"[2] -- which, roughly, means can see outside of the country.
Presumably, like elsewhere in the world, not everything NRK is showing is licensed only for Norway.
To the original point: The issue isn't that BankId is being used, it's saying you can just watch the originals, in their mother-tongue (person-tongue?).
For example, NRK produces some originals, like Vikingane[3] that eventually became Norsemen[4] on Netflix.
Clearly, that's been licensed for semi-global (if not global) consumption via Netflix; however, as you can see from the NRK link, you still need to login via BankId to watch it in it's original form.
Again: None of this is a problem, per se, but saying that one can just watch original shows - in their original language - isn't congruent at all with reality, these days.
[2] - https://www.svt.se/kontakt/anvand-svt-play-utomlands
[3] - https://tv.nrk.no/serie/vikingane
[4] - https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80180182
Edit: List formatting fix.
I'm in Norway so I don't really know how it looks like from abroad, but I am pretty sure a lot of NRK content is available globally. Under the Vikingane show you listed it clearly says "available in Norway". However the first show on the homepage "Nytt på nytt-quiz" [1], a type of game-show, says that it is available globally. I am not sure there is a clear overview over what is available globally though like SVT has.
I think often fiction-type shows like Vikingane has complicated licensing as it is normally produced by some sort of third-party, but other programs like news and the mintioned gameshow is produced in-house and NRK has all the rights. There is a very nice page with an archive of old programs [2], I think most of this should be globally available.
I of course agree in general that geo-restrictions and localized distribution rights are stupid concepts.
[1]: https://tv.nrk.no/serie/nytt-paa-nytt-quiz [2]: https://tv.nrk.no/programmer/nrk-arkivet
I think often fiction-type shows like Vikingane has complicated licensing as it is normally produced by some sort of third-party, but other programs like news and the mintioned gameshow is produced in-house and NRK has all the rights. There is a very nice page with an archive of old programs [2], I think most of this should be globally available.
I of course agree in general that geo-restrictions and localized distribution rights are stupid concepts.
[1]: https://tv.nrk.no/serie/nytt-paa-nytt-quiz [2]: https://tv.nrk.no/programmer/nrk-arkivet
Thanks! Wasn't aware of the Archive link. Even so, it is hit and miss with what's available.
For example, the most popular show I've heard of, Skram[1], requires a login -- but Storst av alt (another I've heard of) does not.
[1] - https://tv.nrk.no/serie/skam/sesong/1
[2] - https://tv.nrk.no/serie/stoerst-av-alt
For example, the most popular show I've heard of, Skram[1], requires a login -- but Storst av alt (another I've heard of) does not.
[1] - https://tv.nrk.no/serie/skam/sesong/1
[2] - https://tv.nrk.no/serie/stoerst-av-alt
"Skam" is a bit different because even though it's produced by NRK it got so popular elsewhere that NRK is licensing it to other countries. So they aren't free to just dump it freely worldwide.
>"Presumably, like elsewhere in the world, not everything NRK is showing is licensed only for Norway."
NRK doesn't buy world-wide licenses, even if the same show/program is available everywhere. They still can't distribute that. What they can distribute is what's 100% produced by NRK. If there are collaborators, they can't.
NRK doesn't buy world-wide licenses, even if the same show/program is available everywhere. They still can't distribute that. What they can distribute is what's 100% produced by NRK. If there are collaborators, they can't.
> It's not a geo restriction problem. It's a distribution rights problem.
This is the same thing.
This is the same thing.
It’s not the same cause but the effect is the same. It’s a distinction with a difference, not to be confused with the opposite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_differen...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_differen...
It's a distinction without a meaningful difference. It's geo-locked because non-global rights exist, and non-global rights exist because geo-locking (implemented technically or not) is possible.
The context matters very little to the users who can’t access content, but it gets somewhat interesting when it comes to things like geo-locking. I can imagine a situation where User X can normally access content from their home country Y, but can’t access that same content on the same service when working abroad in country Z without using a VPN. The service detects they are using a VPN, but doesn’t care because the IP matches the county of the billing address of their payment method and thus complies with the content provider’s contractual obligations with respect to streaming rights. It’s frustrating when a different person using a VPN to that same country can’t access the content simply because their account is not in the same country as the VPN exit point.
But I agree with what you said, I just think it is an interesting topic and so the distinction matters to me more than it may to you.
Things like the above are infuriating to me as someone who appreciates the position content creators and licensees are in, I just don’t have much patience with the failure modes of copyright.
But I agree with what you said, I just think it is an interesting topic and so the distinction matters to me more than it may to you.
Things like the above are infuriating to me as someone who appreciates the position content creators and licensees are in, I just don’t have much patience with the failure modes of copyright.
> In the ever-growing geo-restrictions world, this is no longer as easy as it was in the days of yore.
I totally agree with despising these restrictions, but isn't it likely that more total material is available worldwide than ever before?
My nephew was learning Norwegian for a while and we easily found Norwegian newspapers and magazines online to attempt to read together. It doesn't seem like finding such reading material would have been so quick and easy in the United States thirty or forty years ago.
Even for video, he readily found lots of material on YouTube that interested him, including lots of contemporary Norwegian music videos. That also would probably not have been straightforward to find a few decades ago!
I totally agree with despising these restrictions, but isn't it likely that more total material is available worldwide than ever before?
My nephew was learning Norwegian for a while and we easily found Norwegian newspapers and magazines online to attempt to read together. It doesn't seem like finding such reading material would have been so quick and easy in the United States thirty or forty years ago.
Even for video, he readily found lots of material on YouTube that interested him, including lots of contemporary Norwegian music videos. That also would probably not have been straightforward to find a few decades ago!
Not necessary for news broadcasts, for example:
https://tv.nrk.no/serie/dagsrevyen-21/202405/NNFA21051224/av...
I didn't bother looking further into it but I would expect lots of other programs to be available without BankId.
https://tv.nrk.no/serie/dagsrevyen-21/202405/NNFA21051224/av...
I didn't bother looking further into it but I would expect lots of other programs to be available without BankId.
I've been watching NRK for years, in Japan, with a Chromecast plugged into the TV. No problems watching news. Can't watch BBC nature programs, for pretty obvious reasons, but some other locally produced material can be watched. And that about summarizes my interests.. there's nothing else there I would want to watch anyway. Never tried bankID - that wasn't a thing before, with NRK. First time I heard about this, in fact. In any case I suspect that will not help at all when I use Chromecast.
Yep. The internet means information can be shared almost anywhere on earth simultaneously, and so a great deal of human effort must be spent ensuring this does not happen.
I must say, I'm really skeptical of all these apps. I've tried pretty much all of them (well, not literally all of them, but a lot). I've had to move/travel quite a lot in my life, and I tried to get a "head start" on learning the language, with a different app. Every time, going to the country, I quickly realized that I could not speak the language. At best I could read it and produce with effort some sentences that natives have trouble understanding themselves. And then, after immersing myself in the language for a couple of weeks, I was much, much better than anything I could have achieved with the app.
Most apps focus too much on impeccable grammar (even if they usually restrict you to a few tenses/moods) and rote, non-contextual vocabulary learning. Both are, well, useless. Having perfect grammar but not knowing when to use which verb in which context won't get you far. It's like trying to learn how to code in some programming language by studying the formal syntax and rote memorizing a bunch of core functions from the standard library. You miss out on everything that actually makes a language.
All in all, it feels like this post was written by someone who mainly communicates (or learns to communicate) in foreign in writing.
> Forget intonation if it’s not entirely necessary. Especially in French, there is no need to learn if a word takes a ` or ‘.
I can't let that one go, sorry. You don't need to learn perfect spelling, but it's going to be obvious most of the time if it's é or è when you hear the word. And if you pronounce it weird, you will get confused looks. In English, do you "need" to learn if a word takes "o" or "u"? People who were raised with certain native languages cannot even hear the difference anyway, so why bother, I guess? I hope this makes my point clear.
Most apps focus too much on impeccable grammar (even if they usually restrict you to a few tenses/moods) and rote, non-contextual vocabulary learning. Both are, well, useless. Having perfect grammar but not knowing when to use which verb in which context won't get you far. It's like trying to learn how to code in some programming language by studying the formal syntax and rote memorizing a bunch of core functions from the standard library. You miss out on everything that actually makes a language.
All in all, it feels like this post was written by someone who mainly communicates (or learns to communicate) in foreign in writing.
> Forget intonation if it’s not entirely necessary. Especially in French, there is no need to learn if a word takes a ` or ‘.
I can't let that one go, sorry. You don't need to learn perfect spelling, but it's going to be obvious most of the time if it's é or è when you hear the word. And if you pronounce it weird, you will get confused looks. In English, do you "need" to learn if a word takes "o" or "u"? People who were raised with certain native languages cannot even hear the difference anyway, so why bother, I guess? I hope this makes my point clear.
> In English, do you "need" to learn if a word takes "o" or "u"?
English semi-famously remains comprehensible if you replace every vowel with a schwa. So sure you'll have an extremely weird accent, but this is acceptable according to the OP's definition of "speaking a language" from the first paragraph of the article.
English semi-famously remains comprehensible if you replace every vowel with a schwa. So sure you'll have an extremely weird accent, but this is acceptable according to the OP's definition of "speaking a language" from the first paragraph of the article.
Hi, OP here. It's not optimal, it's just the way to make you progress fast, not quit and then get a good accent,learn complicated grammar structure etc.
I'm OP. I am not communicating mostly in writing. I think that most people memorize the sound of the word. Ecole is the first word I learned in French and to this day I forget is it's a grave or aigu. What I realized with your comment and thank you is that I didn't mean intonation! I got confused because and I meant the type of accents and I meant spelling. Thank you
> Ecole is the first word I learned in French and to this day I forget is it's a grave or aigu.
What I've noticed with most French words is that initial-è seems to be phonotactically disfavored if not outright forbidden. A quick scan of my dictionary suggests the only word with initial-è is ès which is archaic. In general, I associate è with a sort of final position, using je préfère as the mnemonic (since it has both the accents in that conjugation).
What I've noticed with most French words is that initial-è seems to be phonotactically disfavored if not outright forbidden. A quick scan of my dictionary suggests the only word with initial-è is ès which is archaic. In general, I associate è with a sort of final position, using je préfère as the mnemonic (since it has both the accents in that conjugation).
Words that start with a "è" sound typically have an "H" as a first letter.
Really? Try to pronounce "ecole" (I'm omitting the accent on purpose). Does it sound like the end of "café" or the first sound in "mère"? It's impossible to confuse the two. I'm really curious as to how you manage not to distinguish them while claiming to speak the language. That's what I meant when I said I thought you are mostly communicating in writing - if you actually speak the word, you'll never be confused about it...
I'm not only claiming to speak the language, I not only have spoken it with various friends but also I have a formal B1 certificate from institute francais. Which proves that pronouncing the e of mere and the first e of ecole exactly the same is not very important. Also for reference I used to hang out with an examiner from the same institute and told me they only care about your accents unless it's something monstrous only at C1 level. You can pass the exam (official from the state) without writing any accents even in written composition.
This is like the c++ pointers guy complaining "how can this guy write so ugly PHP". I'm the PHP guy and I'm a fan of the way @levelsio is doing things in a simple and effective way that makes others annoyed. But in reality his projects work. And I chat with french friends :)
This is like the c++ pointers guy complaining "how can this guy write so ugly PHP". I'm the PHP guy and I'm a fan of the way @levelsio is doing things in a simple and effective way that makes others annoyed. But in reality his projects work. And I chat with french friends :)
You do realize that B1 is lower intermediate level...? This isn't exactly the flex you think it is.
Besides, learning a language isn't about exams or certifications. It seemed to me that we have very different ideas of what learning to speak a language means, and your answers confirm it. That's fine, but I'm not sure what there is left to discuss, then.
Besides, learning a language isn't about exams or certifications. It seemed to me that we have very different ideas of what learning to speak a language means, and your answers confirm it. That's fine, but I'm not sure what there is left to discuss, then.
Glad I’m not alone, have thought the same thing.
Having taken some French in high school, formally learning grammar and such seemed more useful than what the apps do. Of course, doesn’t make for high entertainment.
I feel the apps only try to sell the idea of learning a language, not the actual ability to do so.
Having taken some French in high school, formally learning grammar and such seemed more useful than what the apps do. Of course, doesn’t make for high entertainment.
I feel the apps only try to sell the idea of learning a language, not the actual ability to do so.
Yeah that's a bizarre (or non-) example for a point that might be otherwise sound.
Accents aigu et grave sound completely different, and stand in for a variety of disambiguating spellings you might use (including the grave even for non loanwords: 'bless-id' vs 'blesst', for example) you could never confuse the pronunciation, they serve the opposite purpose.
In fact that example makes it seem more like a point about spelling, don't worry about writing the wrong accent. (Yeah, people will figure it out I'm sure; in English too 'bless-ayed' is nonsense, so the presence of any accent would look like 'bless-id' was intended.)
Accents aigu et grave sound completely different, and stand in for a variety of disambiguating spellings you might use (including the grave even for non loanwords: 'bless-id' vs 'blesst', for example) you could never confuse the pronunciation, they serve the opposite purpose.
In fact that example makes it seem more like a point about spelling, don't worry about writing the wrong accent. (Yeah, people will figure it out I'm sure; in English too 'bless-ayed' is nonsense, so the presence of any accent would look like 'bless-id' was intended.)
Don't discount the utility of reading, though maybe it's less useful these days with smartphone camera translation.
Back before widespread internet, I spent two weeks in Korea, and by the end I could basically read & pronounce it (without really understanding anything) because it was that critical to getting around.
Back before widespread internet, I spent two weeks in Korea, and by the end I could basically read & pronounce it (without really understanding anything) because it was that critical to getting around.
After many attempts to learn different languages (Spanish, Arabic, German, Bengali) and having mixed results over the years, I started using Assimil courses and I’ve been very pleased with them. Going through Assimil French along with some comprehensible input on YouTube and I got to a high B1 reading/listening in 3-4 months. After that you can jump into tutoring on italki/Preply for speaking and then find other native content that interests you. I just wish I had found Assimil courses years ago.
The biggest resource I've ever stumbled upon was discord servers for specific languages.
During the pandemic when everyone was trying to learn languages they were popping off. Like thousands would be in servers and you could just chat with people whenever you wanted. I would spend every minute commuting, cleaning, or any time I would've usually listened to podcasts bullshitting with random people and learning how to actually speak.
I've tried italki I've tried other platforms where it's bumble for language learning. They didn't even come close to how quickly I learned there. And you can't beat free.
I joined one for Spanish and French. I'm sure they exist for others.
During the pandemic when everyone was trying to learn languages they were popping off. Like thousands would be in servers and you could just chat with people whenever you wanted. I would spend every minute commuting, cleaning, or any time I would've usually listened to podcasts bullshitting with random people and learning how to actually speak.
I've tried italki I've tried other platforms where it's bumble for language learning. They didn't even come close to how quickly I learned there. And you can't beat free.
I joined one for Spanish and French. I'm sure they exist for others.
Very interesting,can you post links to those servers? Was it also audio or mostly text based.what was the ratio of native speakers?
What helped so much with them that other attempts/methods lacked?
I find having the parallel text (one page target language, the other your source language) to be extremely helpful. The lesson texts are progressively more difficult (A1 to about B2), so it never feels overwhelming. And maybe most importantly you can get through a lesson in 20-30 minutes, so it’s easy to make a daily habit of it.
Here is how the method is generally used: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar04zvpoylU
With all the other language courses I’ve done it has always been tons of grammar lessons, some basic classroom discussion, and making vocab decks for something like Anki. With Assimil you’re immediately just inside the language, learning it almost passively. I was able to pick up easy native content books — like Camus in the case of French — after getting through the full Assimil course in a few months. Of course it’s still slow going and takes lots of effort, but the faster you can get to native content that is interesting to you the better I think.
Here is how the method is generally used: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar04zvpoylU
With all the other language courses I’ve done it has always been tons of grammar lessons, some basic classroom discussion, and making vocab decks for something like Anki. With Assimil you’re immediately just inside the language, learning it almost passively. I was able to pick up easy native content books — like Camus in the case of French — after getting through the full Assimil course in a few months. Of course it’s still slow going and takes lots of effort, but the faster you can get to native content that is interesting to you the better I think.
> Learn only 4 tenses. Past for one time events, past continuous, present, future. These are enough to go by and explain yourself.
There is no future tense in Finnish. Or gendered personal pronouns. Oh and there’s about a gazillion words for snow. And god help you if you need to articulate that your spruce is returning.
There is no future tense in Finnish. Or gendered personal pronouns. Oh and there’s about a gazillion words for snow. And god help you if you need to articulate that your spruce is returning.
On the subject of tenses Turkish has a "reported past tense" which I haven't heard in other languages so far. It's very commonly used and simply denotes that someone told you of something that happened. I.e. you didn't witness / weren't present.
You may enjoy this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidentiality
As an English speaker myself it's astonishing the number and range of features that other languages have built in, so to speak. Years ago I took Latin and the idea of declension just blew my mind. And that's basic in the grand scheme.
As an English speaker myself it's astonishing the number and range of features that other languages have built in, so to speak. Years ago I took Latin and the idea of declension just blew my mind. And that's basic in the grand scheme.
I confess I also read this thinking 'this person hasn't tried learning Finnish'.
It's also trickier with more unusual languages because there aren't resources out there to the same extent as for more widely-spoken languages. I don't think there is an 'official' Memrise course for Finnish for example.
It's also trickier with more unusual languages because there aren't resources out there to the same extent as for more widely-spoken languages. I don't think there is an 'official' Memrise course for Finnish for example.
English also doesn't have a (proper) future tense, but you would still need to learn how to talk about the future using the modal 'will'.
In English there is at least the means grammatically to express you're referring to the future (I'm going to the store, I will go to the store, I'm going to go to the store). In Finnish, it's entirely contextual and you can throw in timing words to help.
i have learned many language (german, english, french, japanese, korean).
i have used Anki, Supermemo, Flashcards, Watched Series, Read Books and the only thing that seems to work is:
- Spaced Repetition - Something you actually enjoy(learning should be fun) - Comprehensible Input
anything else has not worked for me.
i have used Anki, Supermemo, Flashcards, Watched Series, Read Books and the only thing that seems to work is:
- Spaced Repetition - Something you actually enjoy(learning should be fun) - Comprehensible Input
anything else has not worked for me.
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The limitation with flashcards is that you get the entire answer, not sure if there are flashcard apps with a hint function? I experimented with vocab training where you can peek the first two letters which helps jog the memory.
Anki has two types of hint fields (and the CSS/JavaScript in Note Types is editable, so you can add your own functionality if this is insufficient)
* https://docs.ankiweb.net/templates/fields.html#hint-fields
* https://docs.ankiweb.net/editing.html#cloze-deletion:~:text=...
Disclaimer: AnkiDroid maintainer
* https://docs.ankiweb.net/templates/fields.html#hint-fields
* https://docs.ankiweb.net/editing.html#cloze-deletion:~:text=...
Disclaimer: AnkiDroid maintainer
Clozemaster has something like that where you can get the first letter as a hint. I tried Anki for a few languages and would always burn out making cards. Clozemaster is nice because it puts the word in the context of a sentence and then has an “explain” function that uses ChatGPT to explain the grammar. And they group words by sets of frequency (100 most common, 500 most common, etc)
In Anki, select the “Cloze” card type, and add hints with this syntax
{{c1::answer::hint}}
There’s a hint function on phrasing.app :) we’re launching the public beta this week sometime
I've created a flashcard app with a hint function. I mention it in another comment.
I would suggest to drop "Amateur" from the title in the sense that languages are useful both professionally and privately - you never know in what language your next deal will be signed, your next networking acqaintance bumps into you to make you the next job offer etc.
Besides, as a professional (computational) linguist, I have met many trained/professional linguists that know only one language - typically English - well - I think that is professionally totally unacceptable when your mission is to study language (in abstract, intentionally without article here => linguistics); the way a language structures the world for you in the way its vocab influences the way you think in concepts (Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, AKA linguistic relativity => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity ) is something that you should at least occasionally step out of, so that you don't take it for granted, and for that, you need to master a second language.
Besides, as a professional (computational) linguist, I have met many trained/professional linguists that know only one language - typically English - well - I think that is professionally totally unacceptable when your mission is to study language (in abstract, intentionally without article here => linguistics); the way a language structures the world for you in the way its vocab influences the way you think in concepts (Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, AKA linguistic relativity => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity ) is something that you should at least occasionally step out of, so that you don't take it for granted, and for that, you need to master a second language.
> the way a language structures the world for you in the way its vocab influences the way you think in concepts
You can even see it in this article :)
"Learn only 4 tenses. Past for one time events, past continuous, present, future. These are enough to go by and explain yourself."
Some lanuages don't even have 4 tenses. Polish has 3. And Past Continuous isn't a thing, we have aspects instead.
BTW I don't intend to criticize the author, they're far more of a polyglot than I am (I only speak 4 languages, and only 2 well). It's just funny how we take some things for granted.
You can even see it in this article :)
"Learn only 4 tenses. Past for one time events, past continuous, present, future. These are enough to go by and explain yourself."
Some lanuages don't even have 4 tenses. Polish has 3. And Past Continuous isn't a thing, we have aspects instead.
BTW I don't intend to criticize the author, they're far more of a polyglot than I am (I only speak 4 languages, and only 2 well). It's just funny how we take some things for granted.
I think that the author's intent can be meaningful understood without the implication that they don't know about other languages.
I think a reasonable interpretation of the statement is "learn how to use verbs such that you can talk about doing something now, doing something in the future, having done something and continuing to do it, and having some something and since stopped doing it."
In every language humans are capable of expressing those distinct concepts. But boy, that was an awful lot wordier than the way the author put it.
I think a reasonable interpretation of the statement is "learn how to use verbs such that you can talk about doing something now, doing something in the future, having done something and continuing to do it, and having some something and since stopped doing it."
In every language humans are capable of expressing those distinct concepts. But boy, that was an awful lot wordier than the way the author put it.
> Polish has 3.
Native speakers of slavic languages tend to believe that there are three tenses. Try asking that someone who learned it as a second language and you'll realize that native french/english speakers think that slavic languages have 6+ tenses to them. Aspekt dokonany i niedokonany basically doubles number of tenses.
Native speakers of slavic languages tend to believe that there are three tenses. Try asking that someone who learned it as a second language and you'll realize that native french/english speakers think that slavic languages have 6+ tenses to them. Aspekt dokonany i niedokonany basically doubles number of tenses.
Some languages are tenseless.
In some analyses, english only has two (past and present).
> I would suggest to drop "Amateur" from the title in the sense that languages are useful both professionally and privately - you never know in what language your next deal will be signed, your next networking acqaintance bumps into you to make you the next job offer etc
I agree that knowing more languages can only help, but it's an awfully large time investment for that hypothetical benefit. Unless you're moving to a place or in love with a person that speaks it, learning a language seems pretty far down the list of time-efficient ways to improve your "professional and private" life. That's not to say people shouldn't pursue it, as hobbies go it seems like an edifying one, but unless you think it's fun, it doesn't seem very worth it.
I agree that knowing more languages can only help, but it's an awfully large time investment for that hypothetical benefit. Unless you're moving to a place or in love with a person that speaks it, learning a language seems pretty far down the list of time-efficient ways to improve your "professional and private" life. That's not to say people shouldn't pursue it, as hobbies go it seems like an edifying one, but unless you think it's fun, it doesn't seem very worth it.
> Besides, as a professional (computational) linguist, I have met many trained/professional linguists that know only one language - typically English - well - I think that is professionally totally unacceptable when your mission is to study language (in abstract, intentionally without article here => linguistics); the way a language structures the world for you in the way its vocab influences the way you think in concepts (Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, AKA linguistic relativity => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity ) is something that you should at least occasionally step out of, so that you don't take it for granted, and for that, you need to master a second language.
As a trained (and formerly professional) linguist, I vehemently disagree.
(1) Linguistics, as you seem to allude to, is the study of language as a phenomenon, not the study of languages. It includes fields like the study of acoustics (the intersection of the physics of sound and the biology of the ear / vocal cords), and neurolinguistics (the neuroscience of language) that have nothing to do with sociolinguistics or second language acquisition. [0]
(2) The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in its strong formulation is pseudoscience, and is rejected as such by the academic mainstream of linguistics. Journalists love it because it flatters them in their role as word-smiths, so there is sadly no end to the ink being spilled over it.
(3) Most crucially, any linguist worth their salt can work in multiple languages without necessarily speaking them. I can understand the sandhi phenomenon in Vedic Sanskrit without speaking Sanskrit, because that's sort of the job of a linguist? People can talk about 'sun and moon letters' in Arabic, and I can go - cool, assimilation of coronal consonants. I don't need to weep over Arabic poetry before realising this, this is just the basic tradecraft of a linguist. Same as I can understand lambda functions as a concept, without needing to know how they're implemented in <insert programming language here>.
In my experience, linguists enjoy other languages and often speak them, as I do, but it's rather ignorant to assert it's "professionally totally unacceptable" for, say, a neurolinguist to be monolingual. It suggests an exceedingly narrow view of the field.
[0] Here's a fun example of neurolinguistics. Consider the sentence 'I drinks a tall.' Approx 100-200 ms after reading this, an electrical signal (simplifying for clarity) fired off in your left frontal lobe, near the section of your brain called Broca's area. That signal, the Early Left Anterior Negativity (ELAN), is associated with syntactic violations (in this case, the use of 'tall' without an accompanying noun). Approx. 300-500 ms after reading this sentence, a second impulse, the Left Anterior Negativity (LAN) fired off in the same area of your brain. This impulse is associated with morphological violations (in this case, the use of 'I drinks' rather than the expected 'I drink'). If I said 'He drinks a tall', you'd just get the ELAN, but no LAN. If I said 'I drinks a tall glass of water.', you'd get the LAN but no ELAN. Fascinatingly, you haven't actually parsed the meaning of the sentence at the time either of these fired - that comes later, at around 600 ms (the P600 signal, in a different part of the brain). This kind of work is very much the domain of linguistics, and clearly not contingent on learning lots and lots of languages. (Enjoyable though that may be!)
As a trained (and formerly professional) linguist, I vehemently disagree.
(1) Linguistics, as you seem to allude to, is the study of language as a phenomenon, not the study of languages. It includes fields like the study of acoustics (the intersection of the physics of sound and the biology of the ear / vocal cords), and neurolinguistics (the neuroscience of language) that have nothing to do with sociolinguistics or second language acquisition. [0]
(2) The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in its strong formulation is pseudoscience, and is rejected as such by the academic mainstream of linguistics. Journalists love it because it flatters them in their role as word-smiths, so there is sadly no end to the ink being spilled over it.
(3) Most crucially, any linguist worth their salt can work in multiple languages without necessarily speaking them. I can understand the sandhi phenomenon in Vedic Sanskrit without speaking Sanskrit, because that's sort of the job of a linguist? People can talk about 'sun and moon letters' in Arabic, and I can go - cool, assimilation of coronal consonants. I don't need to weep over Arabic poetry before realising this, this is just the basic tradecraft of a linguist. Same as I can understand lambda functions as a concept, without needing to know how they're implemented in <insert programming language here>.
In my experience, linguists enjoy other languages and often speak them, as I do, but it's rather ignorant to assert it's "professionally totally unacceptable" for, say, a neurolinguist to be monolingual. It suggests an exceedingly narrow view of the field.
[0] Here's a fun example of neurolinguistics. Consider the sentence 'I drinks a tall.' Approx 100-200 ms after reading this, an electrical signal (simplifying for clarity) fired off in your left frontal lobe, near the section of your brain called Broca's area. That signal, the Early Left Anterior Negativity (ELAN), is associated with syntactic violations (in this case, the use of 'tall' without an accompanying noun). Approx. 300-500 ms after reading this sentence, a second impulse, the Left Anterior Negativity (LAN) fired off in the same area of your brain. This impulse is associated with morphological violations (in this case, the use of 'I drinks' rather than the expected 'I drink'). If I said 'He drinks a tall', you'd just get the ELAN, but no LAN. If I said 'I drinks a tall glass of water.', you'd get the LAN but no ELAN. Fascinatingly, you haven't actually parsed the meaning of the sentence at the time either of these fired - that comes later, at around 600 ms (the P600 signal, in a different part of the brain). This kind of work is very much the domain of linguistics, and clearly not contingent on learning lots and lots of languages. (Enjoyable though that may be!)
I speak Spanish and English, but then I moved on to Japanese and now find myself stuck. I'm not confident in any scenario involving Japanese. Perhaps I should explore other languages (likely French, Portuguese, or another Romance language), then revisit Japanese. From there, I might transition to Mandarin and Korean.
Either the path I chose is too complex, or age is beginning to impact my cognitive speed.
Has anyone feeling this? or maybe I overestimated the time I should have been investing into this?
Either the path I chose is too complex, or age is beginning to impact my cognitive speed.
Has anyone feeling this? or maybe I overestimated the time I should have been investing into this?
I went from Portuguese and English to Japanese and I can tell you: that is entirely normal.
So many words in English are from Latin origin, so you got so many shortcuts when learning English (and I’m sure you are exposed to it for more time than you realize, as time spent passively learning a language dominates in the end).
It took me some time to realize the amount of work (in terms of hours put into it) that are needed to learn Japanese.
But then what I look for in language learning is not what polyglots look for. I want to understand the language deeply to appreciate its beauty fully while communicating with natives in a deep level, so I’m OK with putting the hours and leaning it within many years, even if it means it is the last language I learn. I’m in for the depth, not for the number of languages.
So many words in English are from Latin origin, so you got so many shortcuts when learning English (and I’m sure you are exposed to it for more time than you realize, as time spent passively learning a language dominates in the end).
It took me some time to realize the amount of work (in terms of hours put into it) that are needed to learn Japanese.
But then what I look for in language learning is not what polyglots look for. I want to understand the language deeply to appreciate its beauty fully while communicating with natives in a deep level, so I’m OK with putting the hours and leaning it within many years, even if it means it is the last language I learn. I’m in for the depth, not for the number of languages.
I unstuck myself by moving to working with a tutor (on Preply). That paired with anki cards (of the words I would try to use during a normal conversation but didn't know them) boosted my skills tremendously.
I went from just knowing how to read hira/katakana and say a few sentences (after studying it on my own for many years) to being able to hold a conversation for 1 hour after just a couple of years.
Now I'm moving onto playing easier games for kids which seem fun to me too in Japanese (e.g. some pokemon games). I pick up a lot from animes already but they can be tough, depending on the target audience.
頑張って！
I went from just knowing how to read hira/katakana and say a few sentences (after studying it on my own for many years) to being able to hold a conversation for 1 hour after just a couple of years.
Now I'm moving onto playing easier games for kids which seem fun to me too in Japanese (e.g. some pokemon games). I pick up a lot from animes already but they can be tough, depending on the target audience.
頑張って！
Japanese is in the top tier of language difficulty according to official rankings. Don't despair because you are learning the most difficult language ever and you are not even Chinese or Korean to have familiarity with images vs alphabet.
East Asian Languages are tough for Westerners, or at least that has been my experience. The biggest problem is really the barrier to reading especially with Chinese and a lesser extent Japanese.
Would love any tips from someone who has mastered all those characters without full immersion or a structured University curriculum.
Would love any tips from someone who has mastered all those characters without full immersion or a structured University curriculum.
Been learning Japanese for...uhmmm...30 years? Not at a consistently intense level, but i started at age 12 with a book my grandpa got me for my birthday when i was a full on anime nerd.
I am fluent in a handful of languages so i know i have it in me but, Japanese, oh boy, it's a tough nut to crack. I am conversationally fluent but I'm aware I must sound like a monkey half the time.
Japanese is deceitful because the basic grammar rules are pretty simple once you get your head around them, not a lot of tenses or conjugations to learn, not even plurals or gender for the most part.
But something about how simple it is makes it actually harder to understand, like the meaning is all these nuanced expressions that take forever to learn, and then of course the completely alien vocabulary, which because of the lack of phonetic variety there's lots and lots of ambiguity, too many similar words. And then there's all the speaking registers as used by different classes of people...
Some of my generic tricks for language learning are:
-don't just lock in on one learning app or method but always be open to find better tools. Every language has different options. But don't waste too much time on that either - that's the language equivalent of trying every JS framework before starting your personal website
-identify what the hard and the easy bits of the language are. Ask yourself which of those you absolutely need in order to progress and which can wait. Then tackle the low hanging fruit while you start nibbling at the hard-but-necessary ones and leave the hard-but-less-necessary ones for later - by which time they will be easier because you'll be more familiar with them. Your perception of what the hard and the easy parts of the language are will evolve with time, stay open to that.
-adding to the last point, identify your strengths and weaknesses towards the language, this includes understanding what advantages your current stock of languages give you. Like, how Japanese pronunciation is easy for a Spanish speaker, but vocabulary acquisition isn't. Or how if you have very good memory but poor social skills you'll be good at building your vocabulary but speaking will require extra effort.
-don't just lock in on one learning app or method but always be open to find better tools. Every language has different options. But don't waste too much time on that either - that's the language equivalent of trying every JS framework before starting your personal website
-identify what the hard and the easy bits of the language are. Ask yourself which of those you absolutely need in order to progress and which can wait. Then tackle the low hanging fruit while you start nibbling at the hard-but-necessary ones and leave the hard-but-less-necessary ones for later - by which time they will be easier because you'll be more familiar with them. Your perception of what the hard and the easy parts of the language are will evolve with time, stay open to that.
-adding to the last point, identify your strengths and weaknesses towards the language, this includes understanding what advantages your current stock of languages give you. Like, how Japanese pronunciation is easy for a Spanish speaker, but vocabulary acquisition isn't. Or how if you have very good memory but poor social skills you'll be good at building your vocabulary but speaking will require extra effort.
[deleted]
Any tips for an English speaker trying to learn Cebuano? It's demoralizing making an attempt using some online resources, and then finding out that they don't actually say it that way because of regional or even generational differences.
Learning the alphabet is key for me. That opens up more native-langauge resources, for one. If you happen to be in a country where the language is used, you have instant Always-On practice. I've learned languages using Cyrillic, RtL, Chinese characters, and and will be tackling Thai soon. Interestingly, it's been a challenge to find resources to learn the Thai alphabet. Another thing I've found is that the dialogues in language books rarely actually happen that same way, but tend to be truncated and shortened. So that's why getting out there among a populace is essential.
Shameless plug: for the past year, I've been building an app to help me learn vocabulary. I used to use Anki, but it was very difficult to keep adding new words -> word, sentence example, image, audio. So I've basically created a copy of Anki - spaced-repetition flashcards, with the generation of cards fully automated. Also added YouTube and website integration. [1]
The problem with language learning in my opinion is, that learning the vocabulary just cannot be skipped. I've had German for 6 years (2-3 lessons per week) in highschool, just to find out that I don't understand words on 100th positions on the frequency lists. We've mostly focused on memorizing crazy complex grammar structures.
I've also tried passively listening to podcasts and watching movies/series I've already knew, but that would result in at most 1-2 words per episode, which just wouldn't work, if you need at least 5000 words to understand reasonably well.
[1] https://vocabuo.com
The problem with language learning in my opinion is, that learning the vocabulary just cannot be skipped. I've had German for 6 years (2-3 lessons per week) in highschool, just to find out that I don't understand words on 100th positions on the frequency lists. We've mostly focused on memorizing crazy complex grammar structures.
I've also tried passively listening to podcasts and watching movies/series I've already knew, but that would result in at most 1-2 words per episode, which just wouldn't work, if you need at least 5000 words to understand reasonably well.
[1] https://vocabuo.com
Vocabulary is of course super important, but what's even more important is how you learn the vocabulary. Memorizing single word translations is worse than useless, as words are not used in the same way in different languages. What I'm using is curated input with dialogues etc. which are constructed within a fixed set of vocabulary, so by listening to (and reading) it all you eventually get through a lot of vocabulary and after a while every new episode is easily understood: Time to shift more of the attention over to the next level (more vocabulary and longer dialogues).
(As for English, I learned all my vocabulary by reading. I was reading for the purpose of reading, learning English was not the goal at all)
(As for English, I learned all my vocabulary by reading. I was reading for the purpose of reading, learning English was not the goal at all)
Are there any other kinds of polyglots than self-directed learners picking things up?
Languages, their libraries, and specifically the variety of frameworks kind of require wandering to see what delivers on it's promises in the immediate and forseeable future/direction.
Languages, their libraries, and specifically the variety of frameworks kind of require wandering to see what delivers on it's promises in the immediate and forseeable future/direction.
Barring English, I only speak "dead" languages. Am I a polyglot still? Latin, Koine & Classic Greek, ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and am at "coffee" level in a few ANE/Semitic languages.
Sanskrit is an important one IMO. I have tried to learn sanskrit in the past, didn't manage to do so, too few resources.
Dead languages, might not be dead for very long, machines do better in grammar and syntax nowadays.
Dead languages, might not be dead for very long, machines do better in grammar and syntax nowadays.
Sanskrit and a few others are very difficult. We talked about it in an ANE Langs course but never even got to "coffee" level?
No, you're not a "polyglot".
Yes you are a polyglot. The fascinating thing is that soon you will be able to chat with an AI in these languages (have you even tried speaking to chatgpt on latin?)
I hadn't even considered it
No offense, but what is the "point" in this?
What's the point in reading Shakespeare, or recognizing a Monet painting, or knowing Ancient Greek history or Norse mythology?
In dead languages? Loads of important documents are written in dead languages. I can read them for myself without the interpretation of another.
The point in asking? I only know a single language that is spoken outside of schools, I'm curious if those dead languages still qualify for "polyglot" status. Seems the definition is nebulous.
The point in asking? I only know a single language that is spoken outside of schools, I'm curious if those dead languages still qualify for "polyglot" status. Seems the definition is nebulous.
Easy head start is to learn multiple as a kid. Finding it incredibly hard to learn a 4th as adult
It's mostly input. Kids have more time. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_hypothesis
I was pretty sure myself that must be the case, until I raised kids in a trilingual household, and it's not even close. Children's natural ability for retention and adaptivity with language is truly mindboggling to witness. A child can overhear a new word once in passing, no explanation but context, and use it in conversation out of nowhere six months later, correctly. It's far from just more time.
In linguistics, this is called the 'poverty of the stimulus' argument, and is used to argue that there must be some kind of soft blueprint for language - whether in the brain (certain areas appear to be highly associated with language - Broca's, Wernicke's, etc) or in logic itself.
"The speed and precision of vocabulary acquisition leaves no real alternative to the conclusion that the child somehow has the concepts available before experience with language and is basically learning labels for concepts that are already a part of his or her conceptual apparatus" -- Noam Chomsky
It's a question that is hotly contended, however.
"The speed and precision of vocabulary acquisition leaves no real alternative to the conclusion that the child somehow has the concepts available before experience with language and is basically learning labels for concepts that are already a part of his or her conceptual apparatus" -- Noam Chomsky
It's a question that is hotly contended, however.
you probably just lack time
In my studying (no, acquiring) Japanese I notice a huge difference when I can do 1.5 hours (or more) a day instead of 20-30 minutes. It's almost like the latter is useless.
(Edit: The latter is more than enough to learn grammar etc. But that doesn't teach you the language, unlike what they believed in school way back then)
That may indeed be true. Plus exposure - as kid I had that. Now Duolingo and what not…not the same
Are there any apps specifically targetted at polyglots? It's a niche so I doubt it. I guess you can tell the app that you're native french speaker learning German if you are more proficient in French and picking up German. This way you are training two languages simultaneously.
What do you mean by targeted at polyglots? Almost all apps allow you to chose your base and target language. Laddering like this is very common.
I am on this path, after English I am learning Spanish (from same teacher!)
When I start learning new language, I first focus on speech. So just audio until my ears can pick things like intonation, tones, words, and I start to grasp the sentence structure. After that, get my reading to a basic level and learn the alphabet (if necessary). Only after that do I start with some formal study to build a solid foundation. Usually, some kind of textbook series that covers reading, writing speaking, and listening. After that, I try to immerse myself in a language and learn as necessary.