Computer-science majors graduate into a world of fewer opportunities(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Computer-science majors graduate into a world of fewer opportunities
https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/computer-science-majors-job-market-7ad443bf
51 comments
I graduated in 2022 into the final era of zero interest rate job markets. And then got laid off/fired twice in two years. The only thing that keeps me competitive in the job market is that I specialized so heavily so early (got a cert in unmanned vehicles then started writing spacecraft software). Kids who just learn the general fullstack curriculum (and don't do personal projects) are going to find the market very difficult for the foreseeable future.
I've been in software development professionally since I was 20. I'm 42 now and feel like I have no specialties. I've done many projects for all kinds of things, but never the things that truly interest me. I'm jealous of you writing software for spacecrafts and now I'm thinking maybe I should get some certs...
Certs are whatever, demonstrated knowledge through projects is king. Go learn embedded C/C++ and start making gizmos and you'll be prime space industry meat.
General question -- what should the career-oriented student who is not obsessed with CS and programming consider studying instead of or in addition to CS?
General answer: anything that you're interested in.
You are in the middle of a large body of water. Swim towards any island that looks close. Make sure you get to an island before choosing a different one to swim to. You'll find that becoming a stronger swimmer was the main benefit of the journey.
Personally, after 10 years in the industry, I'm convinced that psychology is going to be extremely important in the coming years. (But maybe this is a budding middle-manager in me talking.)
You are in the middle of a large body of water. Swim towards any island that looks close. Make sure you get to an island before choosing a different one to swim to. You'll find that becoming a stronger swimmer was the main benefit of the journey.
Personally, after 10 years in the industry, I'm convinced that psychology is going to be extremely important in the coming years. (But maybe this is a budding middle-manager in me talking.)
Yeah, agreed. I've got a load of what Americans would call "liberal arts" under my belt and do tech for non-profits.
If you like cars, study automotive design and go work there. Ditto anything really.
Domain knowledge is a real differentiator.
If you like cars, study automotive design and go work there. Ditto anything really.
Domain knowledge is a real differentiator.
The CS+X model that CMU, Stanford and UIUC pioneered is the best middle ground imo.
You need both technical AND "liberal arts" skills as interdisciplinary study is a fundamental part of CS (and a major reason the field even became a thing - look at the work Turing, Simons, etc did).
Tbf I did a double major in CS and Government years ago so I have my biases.
You need both technical AND "liberal arts" skills as interdisciplinary study is a fundamental part of CS (and a major reason the field even became a thing - look at the work Turing, Simons, etc did).
Tbf I did a double major in CS and Government years ago so I have my biases.
Computer Engineering or any of the other legitimately useful CS degree paths instead of CS itself.
At least at the school I went to, CS was kind of a joke for undergrad.
The students that cared about CPU design, low level software (firmware, drivers, kernel, embedded), or robotics (including computer vision, etc) all went computer engineering.
The students that cared about cryptography or the formal maths side of computing all went to the mathematics dept in their applied discrete maths or applied computational mathematics degree paths.
The students that cared primarily about high performance computing or applied computing in general (but didn't go one of the aforementioned routes) went through the computational modelling and data analytics program.
And the students that wanted to learn CS for the purpose of game design or creative arts had their own program within the school of arts (can't remember the name).
So out of the students who were interested in computing that went to my uni for undergrad, the ones that were left in the CS department were those who were told "get a CS degree for lots of money", those that didn't bother researching any other programs, and those who wanted to be web devs or enterprise java/c# devs.
At least at the school I went to, CS was kind of a joke for undergrad.
The students that cared about CPU design, low level software (firmware, drivers, kernel, embedded), or robotics (including computer vision, etc) all went computer engineering.
The students that cared about cryptography or the formal maths side of computing all went to the mathematics dept in their applied discrete maths or applied computational mathematics degree paths.
The students that cared primarily about high performance computing or applied computing in general (but didn't go one of the aforementioned routes) went through the computational modelling and data analytics program.
And the students that wanted to learn CS for the purpose of game design or creative arts had their own program within the school of arts (can't remember the name).
So out of the students who were interested in computing that went to my uni for undergrad, the ones that were left in the CS department were those who were told "get a CS degree for lots of money", those that didn't bother researching any other programs, and those who wanted to be web devs or enterprise java/c# devs.
Healthcare; as long as there's people there's going to be sickness and injuries. It can be a tough work environment, but it's as recession-proof an industry as your likely to find and you can ply your skills anywhere. Healthcare tech platforms also "benefit" from incredible vendor/consumer lock-in relationships. Once a major hospital settles on a healthcare platform it's going to take a minor apocalypse before they move.
It's also the industry that has the most hires in the past few months, and most job openings in the upcoming decade.
It has to be finance. Finance + CS or Finance + Math just opens up both Wall St and Tech as well as consulting to the individual.
But otherwise, trades. It is a serious path to money and ultimately starting your own business.
But otherwise, trades. It is a serious path to money and ultimately starting your own business.
After 4 years as an apprentice digging ditches by hand, if you got lucky enough to find a company that would hire someone fresh out of school (because none of them hire fresh off the street without some kind of related experience).
Lol if I had a job manually digging ditches id negotiate a per foot rate which would be far cheaper than my manual labor cost then finance a backhoe or trencher and make bank. Having digging jobs lined up is like a money printer win-win if the boss got that many.
Math or Electrical Engineering
What kinds of careers are out there for Math grads?
Any kind you want. Being smart matters 100000x more than your major.
I have a math degree and this has absolutely not been my experience. Nobody gives a shit about a math degree, so I went and got a masters in computer vision (CS + Stats). I’ve been sending out resumes this whole last semester and have heard basically nothing.
Now I’m trying to leverage my previous 13 years of experience in aviation, but yeah, I’m not super optimistic. I applied at a robotics company attempting to automate an airplane that I flew professionally and they didn’t want me for a safety position where I would literally be working on how to use the robot.
Now I’m trying to leverage my previous 13 years of experience in aviation, but yeah, I’m not super optimistic. I applied at a robotics company attempting to automate an airplane that I flew professionally and they didn’t want me for a safety position where I would literally be working on how to use the robot.
The market now is terrible but your math degree isn’t holding you back
What the heck is it then, lol? Is it just the current market?
I’m legit thinking I’ll just do my own thing if I can’t figure out something.
I’m legit thinking I’ll just do my own thing if I can’t figure out something.
If you’re interested in doing your own thing send me an email at [email protected]
I have a BA in philosophy and a MS in CS w/ a focus in computer vision. Similar boat as you. No 13 years of exp in a prior industry though.
I stopped trying to get a job a few months ago and have been plugging away at my own projects. I’ve been (equity compensated) working for a startup for the last month or so in a non-technical role and it’s been really eye opening as to what it takes to get something off the ground. I have a lot of interest in pursuing that route now and if you do too it could be good to connect.
I have a BA in philosophy and a MS in CS w/ a focus in computer vision. Similar boat as you. No 13 years of exp in a prior industry though.
I stopped trying to get a job a few months ago and have been plugging away at my own projects. I’ve been (equity compensated) working for a startup for the last month or so in a non-technical role and it’s been really eye opening as to what it takes to get something off the ground. I have a lot of interest in pursuing that route now and if you do too it could be good to connect.
I sent you a message.
Yes, it’s the current market. I’m in the same boat.
I disagree. Maybe if you went to a top five school and are good at networking. Otherwise most careers will still require that you show specialization (domain specific knowledge, certifications, etc).
Once you’re in the door somewhere the cream tends to rise, regardless of your background.
Kinda. Career success isn't strictly based on merit or "smarts."
But I was responding to the claim that a bachelor's in math can get you "any kind of job." That just isn't true. You will always have to compete with the people who have specialized and have experience in that particular domain. Why would any organization hire a math student for a software development job (for example) when they have hundreds of applicants lined up with CS degrees/internships/whathaveyou? Pick any other domain and apply the same thought process. Again, you'd really have to be pulling on your connections or be a standout in some other sense to get that level of consideration. I'm confident that for a lot of hiring managers, success in the long term and "hiring the best" are secondary to "can this person be productive in a reasonable amount of time?".
I remember when I was in school philosophy students used to say the same thing and I thought it was totally absurd. That somehow a philosophy student is on equal footing with someone who just spent four years coding? Just insanity.
But I was responding to the claim that a bachelor's in math can get you "any kind of job." That just isn't true. You will always have to compete with the people who have specialized and have experience in that particular domain. Why would any organization hire a math student for a software development job (for example) when they have hundreds of applicants lined up with CS degrees/internships/whathaveyou? Pick any other domain and apply the same thought process. Again, you'd really have to be pulling on your connections or be a standout in some other sense to get that level of consideration. I'm confident that for a lot of hiring managers, success in the long term and "hiring the best" are secondary to "can this person be productive in a reasonable amount of time?".
I remember when I was in school philosophy students used to say the same thing and I thought it was totally absurd. That somehow a philosophy student is on equal footing with someone who just spent four years coding? Just insanity.
The philosophy students were right, some of the highest mid career earnings of any major. It’s harder to get your foot in the door without specialized knowledge - but careers arent determined by your first entry level job.
There is probably something to this.
Though n = 1, I have a CS degree and am not particularly smart, and... that explains a lot about my life and career trajectory post-grad.
Though n = 1, I have a CS degree and am not particularly smart, and... that explains a lot about my life and career trajectory post-grad.
Insurance actuary. Math degrees are mandatory in the insurance industry all the way to the C-suite.
Right, and if I didn't have an emphasis in statistics?
It'd be great to see some comparisons to other fields/industries versus just looking at computer science in a vacuum.
It's quite possible there has been a slow down in tech hiring from the mid 2010's with multiple offers and signing bonuses/RSUs but relatively I suspect its still easier to find positions than in other fields. There have been mass layoffs in many other industries. I can't imagine hiring is as robust across the board as it was during ZIRP.
It's quite possible there has been a slow down in tech hiring from the mid 2010's with multiple offers and signing bonuses/RSUs but relatively I suspect its still easier to find positions than in other fields. There have been mass layoffs in many other industries. I can't imagine hiring is as robust across the board as it was during ZIRP.
Has the bubble popped?
The Technology one? Just optimizing the Algorithm....
Yes it popped with the first big wave of post-covid layoffs but somehow word hasnt gotten out to the general public. When the most common career advice was to find a new job every 6 months and ask for 20% more money and companies were hiring anybody with a pulse a few years ago I dont know how people did not see that bubble. It was so painfully obvious.
Many did see it, especially when 6 months bootcamps started to pop up and weren’t actually totally misleading in promising high salary jobs upon graduation.
Why is the market for white collar jobs so terrible right now? Is it low interest rates or what?
Or is this for cs guys only?
What accounts for the ups and downs in the bachelor degrees by year chart?
1985-1993: these two articles can explain it better than I can
https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/CSCapacity/CSCapacit... https://cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/2942/why-did...
2003-2010: dot-com bust and poor economic growth followed by Great Recession. Even though the dot-com crash happened in 1999-2001, the students who were in CS would pass out a few years later into an economy scarred by both the dot-com bust and 911. And then the Great Recession followed, of course.
https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/CSCapacity/CSCapacit... https://cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/2942/why-did...
2003-2010: dot-com bust and poor economic growth followed by Great Recession. Even though the dot-com crash happened in 1999-2001, the students who were in CS would pass out a few years later into an economy scarred by both the dot-com bust and 911. And then the Great Recession followed, of course.
> To be sure, comp-sci majors from top-tier schools can still get jobs. Pay, projected to be at about $75,000, is at the high end of majors reviewed by the National Association of Colleges and Employers, or NACE.
Uh, this sounds like they must be citing an aggregate statistic that is definitely not for "top-tier" CS grads. $75K does not sound like a real number for people landing jobs at tech companies (as opposed to tech jobs at companies whose primary value is something else).
Uh, this sounds like they must be citing an aggregate statistic that is definitely not for "top-tier" CS grads. $75K does not sound like a real number for people landing jobs at tech companies (as opposed to tech jobs at companies whose primary value is something else).
E.g. this tool from Berkeley lets you select (but not deep link ...) by major and see median salary by year.
https://career.berkeley.edu/start-exploring/where-do-cal-gra...
- EECS goes from $116 in 2018-2019 to $129K in 2022-2023
- CS goes from $118K in 2018-2019 to $135K in 2022-2023 (I'm actually surprised that this is slightly higher than EECS, given that I think it's supposed to be the easier option).
Of course data from 2023-2024 grads won't be available for some time. But my point is that 75k would be like a 40% drop of median salaries. Is the dip really at that scale from last year's grads to this year's?
https://career.berkeley.edu/start-exploring/where-do-cal-gra...
- EECS goes from $116 in 2018-2019 to $129K in 2022-2023
- CS goes from $118K in 2018-2019 to $135K in 2022-2023 (I'm actually surprised that this is slightly higher than EECS, given that I think it's supposed to be the easier option).
Of course data from 2023-2024 grads won't be available for some time. But my point is that 75k would be like a 40% drop of median salaries. Is the dip really at that scale from last year's grads to this year's?
Don’t forget that tech jobs at real tech companies exist outside of Silicon Valley.
If you work for a tech company in the Midwest or the South, $75k is a perfectly reasonable junior salary.
If you work for a tech company in the Midwest or the South, $75k is a perfectly reasonable junior salary.
I work for a Fortune 100 in one of the 20 biggest metros in the US, $75k is a standard salary for juniors/associates getting an offer right out of college. Some may get a little more, some get less, I haven't met any who got $100k or more right out of school. None of them I've talked to came from a top-tier CS school.
Color me skeptical - sounds like more anti-administration FUD from the WSJ (or because it gets clicks). It seems to me that the malaise is more irrational than backed by any actual macroeconomic circumstance.
weird how talking about malaise is simply FUD when a certain party is in office "well according to economic analysis you're not suffering you're doing really well! don't believe your lying eyes"
> weird how talking about malaise is simply FUD when a certain party is in office "well
That's correct, if you're seeing otherwise your eyes are literally lying or you're a realtor.
It's irrational malaise, not rational malaise.
That's correct, if you're seeing otherwise your eyes are literally lying or you're a realtor.
It's irrational malaise, not rational malaise.
“Continue reading your article with a WSJ subscription”
It’s not circumventing the paywall.
It’s not circumventing the paywall.
Of course not...that would be illegal...
https://archive.ph/iOnJw
https://archive.ph/iOnJw
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