Apple Silicon MacBook batteries can't be replaced under warranty by third party(lapcatsoftware.com)
lapcatsoftware.com
Apple Silicon MacBook batteries can't be replaced under warranty by third party
https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/2024/5/7.html
137 comments
Building a device optimized for repairability is possible and has been realized by Framework.
You post suggests you think optimizing for other things (cost, weight, thinness, etc) is bad. People can and do vote with their wallets by choosing products that optimize things that are important to them. That's not wrong.
You post suggests you think optimizing for other things (cost, weight, thinness, etc) is bad. People can and do vote with their wallets by choosing products that optimize things that are important to them. That's not wrong.
I would usually agree with you that pro choice is the best way and people should be able to prioritise whatever they want in a product.
But in this modern age of extreme levels of e-waste and resource mining, companies should definitely be forced to prioritise repairability and sustainability over things like cost, weight, and thickness.
I dont mean to offend anybody but IMO if you think that having a thinner laptop is more important than reducing electronic and plastic waste on the planet then yes, you are wrong.
But in this modern age of extreme levels of e-waste and resource mining, companies should definitely be forced to prioritise repairability and sustainability over things like cost, weight, and thickness.
I dont mean to offend anybody but IMO if you think that having a thinner laptop is more important than reducing electronic and plastic waste on the planet then yes, you are wrong.
> I dont mean to offend anybody but IMO if you think that having a thinner laptop is more important than reducing electronic and plastic waste on the planet then yes, you are wrong.
My thinner essentially “unrepairable” laptop is now on its 6th year of use and I will probably get another 2 years out of it and has never required repair. The highly repairable all plastic laptop my company tried to provide me lasted 3 years and was repaired twice. I don’t mean to offend you…but if you are really worried about e-waste, you need to really think about longevity stats of the device as a whole within the brand and model. Even if you get a lemon that breaks and requires replacement because it cannot be repaired, that might be offset by a hundred or two that have lasted years.
My thinner essentially “unrepairable” laptop is now on its 6th year of use and I will probably get another 2 years out of it and has never required repair. The highly repairable all plastic laptop my company tried to provide me lasted 3 years and was repaired twice. I don’t mean to offend you…but if you are really worried about e-waste, you need to really think about longevity stats of the device as a whole within the brand and model. Even if you get a lemon that breaks and requires replacement because it cannot be repaired, that might be offset by a hundred or two that have lasted years.
The weight and thinness have been optimised beyond the point where it's meaningful. Weight between framework and mbair is 1.3kg vs 1.24kg and thickness 1.5cm vs 1.1cm. For practical purposes it just doesn't matter anymore.
I’d suggest battery replacement options by third party also doesn’t matter to most people.
> People can and do vote with their wallets by choosing products that optimize things that are important to them.
I don’t think average “Apple product buyers” think about “optimizing things that are important to them” when they buy Apple products. They just buy them because they look “pretty and shiny”. Most of them don’t understand how Apple takes advantage of them. Any reasonable person would be repulsed being treated like that. Unfortunately, most people either are not tech savvy enough or don’t care to understand that Apple takes advantage of them. People need to be educated on how computers work and should work so that they understand what companies are doing and so that they could vote with their wallets.
I don’t think average “Apple product buyers” think about “optimizing things that are important to them” when they buy Apple products. They just buy them because they look “pretty and shiny”. Most of them don’t understand how Apple takes advantage of them. Any reasonable person would be repulsed being treated like that. Unfortunately, most people either are not tech savvy enough or don’t care to understand that Apple takes advantage of them. People need to be educated on how computers work and should work so that they understand what companies are doing and so that they could vote with their wallets.
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Ah yes, the no true scotsman argument, classic.
In reality Apple products overall have very good build quality, long software support timelines and very good software-hardware integration. OSX is more user friendly than Linux and a lot less user hostile than Windows. Spending 8 hours fighting whatever idiocy Windows or Linux or Dell throws at me costs me much more than an extra $500 for an Apple laptop.
For example, my Macbooks have never woken up in a backpack at 2am and proceeded to thermally cook themselves for 6 hours to the point of the battery not working at all after 6 months. My windows laptops have.
In reality Apple products overall have very good build quality, long software support timelines and very good software-hardware integration. OSX is more user friendly than Linux and a lot less user hostile than Windows. Spending 8 hours fighting whatever idiocy Windows or Linux or Dell throws at me costs me much more than an extra $500 for an Apple laptop.
For example, my Macbooks have never woken up in a backpack at 2am and proceeded to thermally cook themselves for 6 hours to the point of the battery not working at all after 6 months. My windows laptops have.
I wish my experience was like that. But my MacBook Pro keyboard became inoperable within 1 year, and too many times did an OSX update break something in my setup.
Linux at least never breaks userspace. x86 sadly can not match arm on efficiency, so the MacBooks are king for thermals/battery life. Although I don't travel enough to need more than 1 work days battery life, which I easily get on a Linux Ryzen laptop. If I could run Linux on the MBP I might consider it - I find macOS is not ideal for an engineer.
Linux at least never breaks userspace. x86 sadly can not match arm on efficiency, so the MacBooks are king for thermals/battery life. Although I don't travel enough to need more than 1 work days battery life, which I easily get on a Linux Ryzen laptop. If I could run Linux on the MBP I might consider it - I find macOS is not ideal for an engineer.
... or they optimize for different things.
I'd get a Framework if I didn't have Apple Silicon as an option, but I like having a supercomputer in my backpack that can run for 6-8 hours on a charge with two VMs, 10 web browser tabs, a smart code editor, and several chonky Electron chat applications open. It also has 64GiB of unified CPU/GPU memory, making it able to run non-trivial local LLMs.
I have never seen an Intel or AMD laptop that delivers both those things. There are underpowered light ones that last a long time, or portable workstations that will cook an imprint of the bottom of the case into your legs. AFAIK there is nothing in that domain that can run large LLMs due to either underpowered iGPUs or separate GPUs that would never have that much RAM on a laptop. A laptop CPU that can run, say, llama3 at a decent speed without GPU would be a portable space heater.
I could replace the battery if I wanted but it's been two years and it still holds a charge fine.
The thing that would make me ditch Apple is if they locked down the OS any more than it already is. Right now macOS treads a fine line between being restricted enough to be secure and safe for the less-technical user while remaining a "real computer." If they took away even the possibility of sudo root or worse tried to lock people into the App Store I'd be gone within a week or two.
Also why I am not an iPad customer. It's basically a giant phone and as near as I can tell putting M processors in them is simply a waste. If I'm buying something that big and that expensive it should be a real computer. Part of the definition of real computer is that I can run any arbitrary code I want on it. If I can't do that it's a "console," which is how I classify most phones as well.
Edit: making iDevices able to run VMs would get you almost there. You'd be able to run any code in theory but it'd be too disjoint from the main experience so still probably a nope for me.
I'd get a Framework if I didn't have Apple Silicon as an option, but I like having a supercomputer in my backpack that can run for 6-8 hours on a charge with two VMs, 10 web browser tabs, a smart code editor, and several chonky Electron chat applications open. It also has 64GiB of unified CPU/GPU memory, making it able to run non-trivial local LLMs.
I have never seen an Intel or AMD laptop that delivers both those things. There are underpowered light ones that last a long time, or portable workstations that will cook an imprint of the bottom of the case into your legs. AFAIK there is nothing in that domain that can run large LLMs due to either underpowered iGPUs or separate GPUs that would never have that much RAM on a laptop. A laptop CPU that can run, say, llama3 at a decent speed without GPU would be a portable space heater.
I could replace the battery if I wanted but it's been two years and it still holds a charge fine.
The thing that would make me ditch Apple is if they locked down the OS any more than it already is. Right now macOS treads a fine line between being restricted enough to be secure and safe for the less-technical user while remaining a "real computer." If they took away even the possibility of sudo root or worse tried to lock people into the App Store I'd be gone within a week or two.
Also why I am not an iPad customer. It's basically a giant phone and as near as I can tell putting M processors in them is simply a waste. If I'm buying something that big and that expensive it should be a real computer. Part of the definition of real computer is that I can run any arbitrary code I want on it. If I can't do that it's a "console," which is how I classify most phones as well.
Edit: making iDevices able to run VMs would get you almost there. You'd be able to run any code in theory but it'd be too disjoint from the main experience so still probably a nope for me.
> I'd get a Framework if I didn't have Apple Silicon as an option
> I like having a supercomputer in my backpack
This shows where your priorities are, which is personal abundance over helping bigger global issues like waste and resource mining. Unfortunately you are joined by the majority of the population which is why things like climate change and poverty are still increasing even though everyone is very well aware of it.
> I like having a supercomputer in my backpack
This shows where your priorities are, which is personal abundance over helping bigger global issues like waste and resource mining. Unfortunately you are joined by the majority of the population which is why things like climate change and poverty are still increasing even though everyone is very well aware of it.
I like what Framework is doing but I think you're overestimating its likely impact on e-waste. If more devices were made this way it would realize some savings but there'd still be a lot of churn because stuff goes obsolete.
The biggest source of gratuitous pointless e-waste isn't laptops anyway. It's pointless "IoT" devices and random gimmicky e-bullshit like that ridiculous "AI pin" that made the rounds.
I don't think what laptop you buy has any effect on climate change. Replacing coal is like 40% of that problem, then as much oil as we can, then gas, in that order, and everything else is a rounding error. Your Framework modules don't help if they're manufactured with coal power and shipped with the same bunker diesel that ships Apple products over here.
The biggest source of gratuitous pointless e-waste isn't laptops anyway. It's pointless "IoT" devices and random gimmicky e-bullshit like that ridiculous "AI pin" that made the rounds.
I don't think what laptop you buy has any effect on climate change. Replacing coal is like 40% of that problem, then as much oil as we can, then gas, in that order, and everything else is a rounding error. Your Framework modules don't help if they're manufactured with coal power and shipped with the same bunker diesel that ships Apple products over here.
> I don't think what laptop you buy has any effect on climate change.
This is the same attitude as people that say 'The plane is flying anyway whether I am on it or not'.
Nothing will change while people are still making decisions on an individual rather than global level.
This is the same attitude as people that say 'The plane is flying anyway whether I am on it or not'.
Nothing will change while people are still making decisions on an individual rather than global level.
The problem is most people are not experts on laptop design trade offs and only find out about these malicious practices years after purchase at which point they cannot vote with their wallet.
Which is exactly why we have industry standards elsewhere. Particularly in house building for example.
I've seen enough inspections to know building standards don't mean much.
It's sadly true but also without such standards it'd be even worse, and, you'd have nothing to fall back on to try to force them to fix it.
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Batteries on ordinary work laptops (Dell, HP, Lenovo etc) are generally easily replaced — often with just ordinary screws!
No they are not. Really often they are also using strong adhesive
Yes they are. I have repaired hundreds of laptops recently and all of them were only screws. No glue.
Is it a design choice? Ifixit sells a replacement battery for his laptop for $150. Apple refuses to sell a battery only, and instead sells a battery+keyboard bundle for $600. This doesn't seem like a laptop design choice, but rather a choice of what replacement parts to sell individually vs bundled together.
Apple is leaving themselves some room so that people like you can come to defend them, hence creating an illusion that what they are not doing is not wrong.
I'm criticizing Apple, not defending them. I think what Apple is doing is wrong.
I'm saying Apple's laptop design optimization wasn't the problem, the problem is that Apple refuses to sell replacement batteries. I think refusing to sell replacement batteries is worse than optimizing a laptop for thinness instead of reparability.
I'm saying Apple's laptop design optimization wasn't the problem, the problem is that Apple refuses to sell replacement batteries. I think refusing to sell replacement batteries is worse than optimizing a laptop for thinness instead of reparability.
How do you vote with your wallet when you can only do Apple software development on Apple hardware?
I wanted to get a Framework laptop, but the wait times were over 3 months. I don't have that kind of forward planning.
As much as I hate tech corporations, I don't really agree that the Macbook Pro is "built to work against you". Mostly it's a great laptop that serves my needs really well. It's mildly annoying that I'm paying for integration with a whole Apple ecosystem that is of no value to me (no iPhone, no iCloud), but it's nothing like intrusive marketing shitscape that is Windows.
As much as I hate tech corporations, I don't really agree that the Macbook Pro is "built to work against you". Mostly it's a great laptop that serves my needs really well. It's mildly annoying that I'm paying for integration with a whole Apple ecosystem that is of no value to me (no iPhone, no iCloud), but it's nothing like intrusive marketing shitscape that is Windows.
> I wanted to get a Framework laptop, but the wait times were over 3 months
This is exactly why Apple is thriving. People have no patience, and are not willing to wait or compromise on anything to get their powerful laptop right now.
This is exactly why Apple is thriving. People have no patience, and are not willing to wait or compromise on anything to get their powerful laptop right now.
I'd like to buy a Framework since 2+ years, but they don't ship to where I live so tough luck i guess :(
Battery replacements were a lot of fun even before Silicon came along. A few years ago my battery started to expand in my Intel MacBook. I went to an authorized repair shop here in Czechia (to this day there are no official Apple Stores here) and expected to pay something unreasonable (because AppleCare+ is not a thing in Czechia even though I can buy it just fine when ordering via Amazon DE) and because it's Apple.
To my surprise the technician inspected the laptop and said that the keyboard was damaged (a few keys were wonky, remember the butterfly keyboards?) and that there was an official repair program for that. It turns out that the battery, keyboard, and trackpad is a single repair item. If you want to replace one, you have to replace all three. So instead of a battery replacement, I got a keyboard replacement which just happened to include a new battery and a new trackpad. At the beginning of last year the battery started to expand again and I went to an unofficial repair shop instead. They replaced just the battery for ~$150.
To my surprise the technician inspected the laptop and said that the keyboard was damaged (a few keys were wonky, remember the butterfly keyboards?) and that there was an official repair program for that. It turns out that the battery, keyboard, and trackpad is a single repair item. If you want to replace one, you have to replace all three. So instead of a battery replacement, I got a keyboard replacement which just happened to include a new battery and a new trackpad. At the beginning of last year the battery started to expand again and I went to an unofficial repair shop instead. They replaced just the battery for ~$150.
Consider yourself lucky!
During the "stain gate" incident where the anti-glow coating came off by itself ruining the display, I went to the authorized repair shop to get the free replacement.
Apple rejected my repair because the screen has a small cosmetic dent at the corner. The free replacement replaces the whole screen unit, but no, that minor dent precludes my laptop...
During the "stain gate" incident where the anti-glow coating came off by itself ruining the display, I went to the authorized repair shop to get the free replacement.
Apple rejected my repair because the screen has a small cosmetic dent at the corner. The free replacement replaces the whole screen unit, but no, that minor dent precludes my laptop...
Was the stain gate the one where you could remove the coating with lots of vinegar and scrubbing?
Just FYI : In this instance I think you mean "Swell" rather than "Swallow"
Swell/Swollen means to increase in size
Swallow means either a small bird or what you do with a drink.
Swell/Swollen means to increase in size
Swallow means either a small bird or what you do with a drink.
Haha, thank you. I had actually changed it to "expand" before I noticed your comments because it sounded weird but I couldn't remember the correct word.
Yup, some of the keys on my 2016 MacBook Pro started not working reliably and thankfully Apple had their extended warranty program for that and they replaced the entire top cover (keyboard, trackpad, aluminum housing) + battery. This was about 5 years after buying it. It was pretty nice because I had like 1200 cycles on the battery or something crazy like that!
My personal record is two battery replacements (AppleCare, both due to capacity being below spec given the number of charge cycles*) and two logic board replacements (GPU failure, first under AppleCare and then out-of-warranty due to a recall) on one MacBook Pro (2011, 17").
* Incidentally, I've received at least half a dozen battery replacements under AppleCare over the years for this reason, going back to the original Titanium PowerBook G4. As far as I can tell, leaving a (Power/Mac)Book plugged in, closed, and running most of the time kills batteries in a warranty-preserving fashion.
* Incidentally, I've received at least half a dozen battery replacements under AppleCare over the years for this reason, going back to the original Titanium PowerBook G4. As far as I can tell, leaving a (Power/Mac)Book plugged in, closed, and running most of the time kills batteries in a warranty-preserving fashion.
My laptop is plugged in most of the time and I use a menu bar app called "Al Dente" that sets the max charge at a certain value (I set 80%). I'm hoping this will help with battery longevity, however I have no real idea if it will. My iPhone it will cap charging at 80% sometimes until the morning to help prevent the battery being at 100% for too long, so I figured 80% was a good number for the MacBook as well.
Lots of glue involved, but it was relatively "easy" to replace the battery in a 2019 Macbook Pro. I would take a swappable battery with a thicker case in an heartbeat though.
*swell
This is a terrible state of affairs and Apple should change policies. If things don’t change substantially, my next computer will be a Framework, leaving macOS behind after 25+ years. However, since this is your money maker, you really ought to have a backup machine for cases like these. Even a low-end Mini would do.
Just got my Framework 16 and I highly recommend it. Sure, it is not as sleek but overall very well engineered. I was inconvenienced by having my charge port on the left side, so i just swapped the port to the right. Lovely device :)
Due to things like this I’m quite wary of buying a high end Apple machine as workhorse even though I’ve become a big fan of their products. Though I’m currently using an M1 and 2018 MacBook Pro without any problems they are company issued so I haven’t paid anything.
Of late I’ve been getting this idea of building a high end desktop PC with Linux as a daily workhorse and use the lowest end MacBook for cases when I have to move around the house or work from office. When I’m paying $3000+ I expect local shops to be able to repair and service them without the manufacturer throwing a tantrum.
Of late I’ve been getting this idea of building a high end desktop PC with Linux as a daily workhorse and use the lowest end MacBook for cases when I have to move around the house or work from office. When I’m paying $3000+ I expect local shops to be able to repair and service them without the manufacturer throwing a tantrum.
Yep that is exactly the feeling which prevents me from buying Apple products for private use. I have no motivation of paying a premium if the manufacturer is going to make things more difficult for me. I want to make my experience easier, not harder, when I pay more.
In contrast, I had no problem buying a Steam Deck the moment it came out (even though I had never bought gaming hardware before) because I had confidence that the customer experience is going to be better.
In contrast, I had no problem buying a Steam Deck the moment it came out (even though I had never bought gaming hardware before) because I had confidence that the customer experience is going to be better.
You are falsely equating repairability with customer experience as a whole.
In an imperfect world where things break repair is a part of customer experience.
The bigger issue for me with having a MacBook as a professional is the turnaround time for a fix. I once had an SSD problem on my fairly new MacbBook Pro. The machine kept getting write errors and eventually they started leading to daily kernel panics. When i sent my machine in the repair shop had to order a new SSD from Apple, this only took a day or two, but the new SSD was DOA and they had to order another one. The distribution center didn't have any more in stock and had to order a new one from China, which would take about a week to arrive, and at this point it had already been almost a week.
The big issue was that the repair shop wasn't allowed to keep any parts in stock. They always had to order a part from Apple and then promptly return the defective one.
The big issue was that the repair shop wasn't allowed to keep any parts in stock. They always had to order a part from Apple and then promptly return the defective one.
Well, when you have enough time to maintain custom build system it is no issue. Most people I know whether lower or higher income level can't spare enough time to repair or get the system repaired.
I mean companies pay significant amounts for trivial software because of maintenance costs.
I mean companies pay significant amounts for trivial software because of maintenance costs.
Anybody remember the old PowerBook G3 (Pismo) where you could swap battery while the computer was running! Batteries half way out at: https://lowendmac.com/ed/moore/08cwm/truepower-pismo-battery...
This meant you could have extra batteries in your bag. This was the first computer with a real "all day on battery" capability.
This meant you could have extra batteries in your bag. This was the first computer with a real "all day on battery" capability.
I had a Samsung Galaxy S4 with the dock with Micro-USB for the phone and behind that a slot for a user-replaceable battery.
It took 2 seconds to pop the back, 1 second to remove the battery, 1 for the new one, and 2 seconds to click the back back on.
All around a battery swap took 1 minute which included phone booting.
Oh and that S4 was waterproof.
It took 2 seconds to pop the back, 1 second to remove the battery, 1 for the new one, and 2 seconds to click the back back on.
All around a battery swap took 1 minute which included phone booting.
Oh and that S4 was waterproof.
Anything other than a user replaceable battery is planned obsolescence and absolutely rubbish.
Your £3000 laptop has a lifetime of ~800 charge cycles. That's all. Enjoy.
Your £3000 laptop has a lifetime of ~800 charge cycles. That's all. Enjoy.
I certainly think that the battery should be user serviceable.
But regardless of what kind of laptop you have, if you use it constantly and your time at it is worth a lot, having a backup in your closet makes sense. When you think of what tools cost in many professions, a backup laptop isn’t the wildest idea.
But regardless of what kind of laptop you have, if you use it constantly and your time at it is worth a lot, having a backup in your closet makes sense. When you think of what tools cost in many professions, a backup laptop isn’t the wildest idea.
My thoughts exactly. This guy claims to be a software business owner, but seems to be one dropped cup of coffee away from not being in business anymore.
I'm wondering if his customers read that blog too and what they would think...
It is bizarre but more uncommon than you think for very high paid and wealthy software guys to for whatever reason be very stingy with their personal hardware. Living in a $3M condo but running a 5 year old PC for their daily driver, etc.
I always have an extra machine around the house in the event either my machine or my wife's machine fails. I've setup an account for her on my machine as backup for her to work with my machine if hers fails, etc.
After years of being remote/hybrid, we now have spare keyboards and mice around as well for when one inevitably breaks as well.
I always have an extra machine around the house in the event either my machine or my wife's machine fails. I've setup an account for her on my machine as backup for her to work with my machine if hers fails, etc.
After years of being remote/hybrid, we now have spare keyboards and mice around as well for when one inevitably breaks as well.
> running a 5 year old PC
Maybe, just maybe, they consider it wasteful to throw away a working machine. The hardware is not exactly green to make, so sure, lets everyone buy a new laptop every year.
Maybe, just maybe, they consider it wasteful to throw away a working machine. The hardware is not exactly green to make, so sure, lets everyone buy a new laptop every year.
You don't throw away MacBooks, you sell them since they are valuable.
But my time has value too, and upgrading from Intel to the new M series did cut compilation times in half for a particular project I was working on. I'm not willing to sacrifice that much time to just keep on using an old machine. Then there's the problem of reliability. Even if I have a spare MacBook lying around there's a non zero chance my work machine will die at a very inconvenient time (like on site at a customer or when working against a short deadline). After 5 years the bathtub curve starts going up and I don't want to depend on old hardware, even when it's working.
But my time has value too, and upgrading from Intel to the new M series did cut compilation times in half for a particular project I was working on. I'm not willing to sacrifice that much time to just keep on using an old machine. Then there's the problem of reliability. Even if I have a spare MacBook lying around there's a non zero chance my work machine will die at a very inconvenient time (like on site at a customer or when working against a short deadline). After 5 years the bathtub curve starts going up and I don't want to depend on old hardware, even when it's working.
Hand down to parents, children, donate, trade-in or resell.
There's a wide gulf between "singularly dependent on a 5 year old PC" and "just throw it out every year".
There's a wide gulf between "singularly dependent on a 5 year old PC" and "just throw it out every year".
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Hey until recently I was still rocking my 10 year old Ivy Bridge machine because it was still good enough.
Yeah that.
It's usually the same people who will pay $2500 a year for routine service on their car without saying something but bitch about $500 repair on the principal income generator they have (their macbook).
It's usually the same people who will pay $2500 a year for routine service on their car without saying something but bitch about $500 repair on the principal income generator they have (their macbook).
> seems to be one dropped cup of coffee away from not being in business anymore
Completely untrue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40534047
Some commenters (see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40533735) seem to want to assume that I'm an idiot, but no, I'm not. I'm trying to avoid a hassle, but I'm not facing any kind of existential crisis to my business.
Completely untrue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40534047
Some commenters (see also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40533735) seem to want to assume that I'm an idiot, but no, I'm not. I'm trying to avoid a hassle, but I'm not facing any kind of existential crisis to my business.
You’d be surprised to know how many people don’t even have backups. It’s just poor policy tbh to stick to one computer, or more precisely have one computer and not have a way to setup a new one in under a day.
If the business is so important getting a second one and setting it up would probably take less time than coming up with that article.
Apple had bizarre policies sometimes sure, but I think this is 10% Apple’s fault and 90% the person posting this not being responsible enough for his business tools.
If the business is so important getting a second one and setting it up would probably take less time than coming up with that article.
Apple had bizarre policies sometimes sure, but I think this is 10% Apple’s fault and 90% the person posting this not being responsible enough for his business tools.
It'd be cool if you could like just slide out a drive from the primary laptop into the backup laptop and continue on as though nothing has happened. Maybe we could even do that with batteries.
I miss the days when this was possible. Apple used to make a big deal about this sort of thing too. Too bad.
I did stop using Macs a few years ago. When my iPhone 11 dies I’ll probably switch to an older Pixel and install GrapheneOS on it.
I did stop using Macs a few years ago. When my iPhone 11 dies I’ll probably switch to an older Pixel and install GrapheneOS on it.
We don't have the technology for that yet, unfortunately. We can sell you a second MacBook though.
The problem isn't really the hardware. I actually do have a Mac mini that I use for testing. (And I still have a couple of older MacBook Pros, though they can't run the latest macOS versions.) The problem is my software setup. Like I said in the blog post, I've got everything on the MacBook Pro. To get everything I need in working order onto a secondary Mac, and then "sync" all changes in various software back to my main machine after a period without it, would be a major pain in the butt. And that's never been an issue before, because like I said, this is the first time in decades of computer ownership that I haven't been able to arrange same-day service. Even overnight service would be ok, but mail-in is out of the question.
And keep in mind, my laptop batteries have generally lasted over three years, and I might be able to postpone this battery replacement for another year. As a lone indie dev, I don't make a huge amount of money, and it would be ridiculous to have a clone of a $3000 computer in a closet for a once-in-three-year occurence. That specific time vs. money tradeoff doesn't make much financial sense.
Rest assured, though, I'm not "one dropped cup of coffee away from not being in business anymore", as one silly reply suggested.
And keep in mind, my laptop batteries have generally lasted over three years, and I might be able to postpone this battery replacement for another year. As a lone indie dev, I don't make a huge amount of money, and it would be ridiculous to have a clone of a $3000 computer in a closet for a once-in-three-year occurence. That specific time vs. money tradeoff doesn't make much financial sense.
Rest assured, though, I'm not "one dropped cup of coffee away from not being in business anymore", as one silly reply suggested.
I personally never found the Apple ecosystem very appealing because it's prohibitively expensive and they seem to want everything done "their" way whether that's software or repairs.
I feel the pain. If I was running my own business I would probably have a macbook and a desktop either a mini or studio. The machines are cheap tools and better than having to worry about downtime.
I do have a Mac mini: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40534047
Right but not with the ability to easily jump between the two. That was really my only point. Feel the pain of hardware failure but I have been there before with a logic board failing. 1 week turnaround even in a dense metro area apple store. I bought a mac studio on the spot and always made sure I can jump between machines where needed.
> Right but not with the ability to easily jump between the two. That was really my only point
But jumping between computers is such a rare occurrence for me. I used the same MacBook Pro from 2014 to 2022 and was never without the machine for more than 8 hours.
I optimize for my personal daily productivity. I don't optimize for a once in 3 year or once in 8 year occurrence. That would be suboptimal overall. If some kind of emergency occurs, I'll manage, but I'm not going to base my whole workflow on the remote possibility of an emergency.
But jumping between computers is such a rare occurrence for me. I used the same MacBook Pro from 2014 to 2022 and was never without the machine for more than 8 hours.
I optimize for my personal daily productivity. I don't optimize for a once in 3 year or once in 8 year occurrence. That would be suboptimal overall. If some kind of emergency occurs, I'll manage, but I'm not going to base my whole workflow on the remote possibility of an emergency.
"I can't be without my MacBook Pro for the indefinite period of time ensuing from mail-in repair".
It cannot be both suboptimal and cannot be without. No need to be defensive either. I was simply sharing that I have found it easier to have a desktop backup on hand but I also don't have any incantations to do to get my working environment setup.
Also worth nothing that every time I have shipped in a Macbook for repair I was giving a timeline and it always came back before the deadline. Shame they don't give out the number of days anymore.
It cannot be both suboptimal and cannot be without. No need to be defensive either. I was simply sharing that I have found it easier to have a desktop backup on hand but I also don't have any incantations to do to get my working environment setup.
Also worth nothing that every time I have shipped in a Macbook for repair I was giving a timeline and it always came back before the deadline. Shame they don't give out the number of days anymore.
> It cannot be both suboptimal and cannot be without.
This is just being pedantic. When I said that I can't, I didn't mean it's literally impossible. I meant that it would be a major, intolerable hassle, and thus I refuse to accept Apple's ridiculous terms.
This is just being pedantic. When I said that I can't, I didn't mean it's literally impossible. I meant that it would be a major, intolerable hassle, and thus I refuse to accept Apple's ridiculous terms.
I am sorry you embellished your story and cannot stand when people provide helpful alternatives.
Who has been helped by your comments?
Like I said sorry for offending you. No need to be so hostile.
> Like I said sorry for offending you.
That's not what you said. You said, "I am sorry you embellished your story and cannot stand when people provide helpful alternatives", which is a blatant insult, not an apology.
> No need to be so hostile.
You've been hostile from the beginning, wrongly second-guessing or criticizing me in every single one of your comments.
That's not what you said. You said, "I am sorry you embellished your story and cannot stand when people provide helpful alternatives", which is a blatant insult, not an apology.
> No need to be so hostile.
You've been hostile from the beginning, wrongly second-guessing or criticizing me in every single one of your comments.
Ok sorry.
How is it that this article was on the HN frontpage for an hour with lots of upvotes and comments and then suddenly just jumped straight down to position 150?
Too many comments compared to points triggers a rank penalty.
Not defending the unrepairability of Apple products, but if the laptop is this important to him that he can't be away from it for a day or two, then perhaps a backup laptop that can perform ~75% of his duties would be a better option. Or a cheap mac mini tucked away somewhere. I assume he has backups, unless everything truly does live on the laptop which is just playing with fire IMO.
I've already addressed these points here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40534047
I use my MacBooks all day every day. Never had this happen. I wonder what unique workflow conditions he has that causes this.
Or maybe it's just a relatively bad battery. It's not broken, it's just not keeping enough charge to pass Apple's threshold for replacement within warranty.
The writer said it's two years old. You either get 2 years or 800-1000 charge cycles before that battery will hover around 80% degraded. That is in line with what I have seen for the past few years. The battery is fine. They just have had heavy all day usage apparently. They have used up most of its usable life. The battery isn't dead only heavily degraded after two years.
Cycle count is 806.
For what it's worth, Apple says "The battery is considered consumed once it reaches the limit."
That limit has been 1000 for all models since about 2010.
That limit has been 1000 for all models since about 2010.
That's a lot for 2 years of use. I'm using less than 100 cycles per year, but my MacBook is on a powered USB-C hub a lot of the time (so it's charging or holding but not using battery power).
The article says it's covered by AppleCare+, but the author can't deal with the multi-week downtime that sending the machine in would cause.
AppleCare+ is usually 48-hours downtime in my experience, and that's with the need to ship the laptop to and from the repair center.
You never had to replace the battery? All batteries lose capacity over time. That's hardly unique. In fact battery replacement is the most common repair.
Have I had to replace batteries, yes. Have I had to do it at the same frequency no.
Not trying to be critical of you, just curious why the batteries get cycled so much. I have used machines heavily over two year periods but perhaps the difference between they were generally plugged in so I was not cycling the battery as quickly.
Not trying to be critical of you, just curious why the batteries get cycled so much. I have used machines heavily over two year periods but perhaps the difference between they were generally plugged in so I was not cycling the battery as quickly.
> I have used machines heavily over two year periods but perhaps the difference between they were generally plugged in so I was not cycling the battery as quickly.
Yes, that would be the difference. I generally only plug in to charge and don't actually work at a desk a lot.
Yes, that would be the difference. I generally only plug in to charge and don't actually work at a desk a lot.
Most People use their laptops as laptops. 1000 charge cycles at 1.5 cycles a day is only 2 years.
Not in my experience with practically every software gig I have had in the past decade.
Yeah my 2021 M1 Pro is showing 89% battery. My spare 2021 M1 Pro is showing 99% battery.
(Also I have a spare iMac and a spare Mac Mini and an iPad I can work on)
YMMV but redundancy is good.
(Also I have a spare iMac and a spare Mac Mini and an iPad I can work on)
YMMV but redundancy is good.
FWIW my M1 Air 2020 is at 93% health. We could speculate about the potential root cause of this different (I always use optimized charging and the author appears to have it disabled on their screenshots)... but it's quite more likely that it's simply bad luck of the battery draw.
I'm at 84% on this M1 MBP that I've been using for 2 years, I'm not too far off from his numbers.
You can vote with your feet. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty
Yes sure anyone can punch themselves in the balls, break their entire workflow and start again if they want to.
But is it worth it?
But is it worth it?
Usually I develop applications with a front-end and back-end component. The front-end runs in the browser, the back end runs is in some cross-platform language like Java or Python. Usually the system runs on Linux in production.
My experience is that systems like this can be developed pretty easily in Windows, Linux or MacOS. I'd spend most of my time in a Jetbrains IDE like IntelliJ IDEA and it is mostly the same except MacOS has that thing with the option and control keys. I don't find it hard to switch. I mean, I have a compact keyboard on one computer with no arrow keys and I switch between that an a normal keyboard every day. It's a small difference.
If you use WSL in Windows you can use the exact same commands and shell scripts on Linux, Windows and MacOS. I mostly use my IDE or I use vim which is the same on all these platforms.
Personally I think the WTF/mile is worse in MacOS and Linux than in Windows. I thought Ubuntu's desktop was a train wreck 10 years ago, today I think it's just fine. If I go to work for company X I am going to have no problem using whatever OS they use.
My experience is that systems like this can be developed pretty easily in Windows, Linux or MacOS. I'd spend most of my time in a Jetbrains IDE like IntelliJ IDEA and it is mostly the same except MacOS has that thing with the option and control keys. I don't find it hard to switch. I mean, I have a compact keyboard on one computer with no arrow keys and I switch between that an a normal keyboard every day. It's a small difference.
If you use WSL in Windows you can use the exact same commands and shell scripts on Linux, Windows and MacOS. I mostly use my IDE or I use vim which is the same on all these platforms.
Personally I think the WTF/mile is worse in MacOS and Linux than in Windows. I thought Ubuntu's desktop was a train wreck 10 years ago, today I think it's just fine. If I go to work for company X I am going to have no problem using whatever OS they use.
Not everyone here is a Linux dev. I spend most of my time with Goodnotes and MacTeX.
Yes
Enjoy your warranty service with other far more terrible vendors then!
In practice, Apple's warranty service isn't amazingly better than anyone else's.
I buy Dell Precision laptops running Ubuntu, with "next-day" on-site repair. It costs me a few hundred dollars for 3 years of coverage, about what I'd spend for AppleCare. Here's my experience:
- The Precision laptops do get more weird hardware failures than I'd like. Higher than one of the good Mac models, lower than some other well-known vendors.
- "Next-day" service in Vermont is usually more like a couple of days, because they often have a single technician covering Vermont and upstate New York, and they sometimes send the parts to the wrong depot.
- They really do send a technician in person to fix everything, for no extra charge.
AppleCare isn't too bad here. But the turnaround is often a lot longer unless I'm willing to travel to a big city where they have parts on hand. So Dell comes out narrowly ahead, in my experience.
I buy Dell Precision laptops running Ubuntu, with "next-day" on-site repair. It costs me a few hundred dollars for 3 years of coverage, about what I'd spend for AppleCare. Here's my experience:
- The Precision laptops do get more weird hardware failures than I'd like. Higher than one of the good Mac models, lower than some other well-known vendors.
- "Next-day" service in Vermont is usually more like a couple of days, because they often have a single technician covering Vermont and upstate New York, and they sometimes send the parts to the wrong depot.
- They really do send a technician in person to fix everything, for no extra charge.
AppleCare isn't too bad here. But the turnaround is often a lot longer unless I'm willing to travel to a big city where they have parts on hand. So Dell comes out narrowly ahead, in my experience.
Dell sends out a technician to come to your house the next day to replace parts right at your kitchen table. Pretty sure Lenovo does too.
No.
I have a high end Dell Precision 7670 with their top NBD support option. The machine has been a shit show. Dell had no parts for it when it failed and took a week to find one. The NBD support doesn't always turn up on the NBD. It's more 2-3 days, if you are lucky.
Lenovo are even worse.
I have a high end Dell Precision 7670 with their top NBD support option. The machine has been a shit show. Dell had no parts for it when it failed and took a week to find one. The NBD support doesn't always turn up on the NBD. It's more 2-3 days, if you are lucky.
Lenovo are even worse.
I’ve never had that problem with four laptops, going all the way back to 2008.
We have about 500 of them and this is normal. You are the lucky one here.
As a decade long XPS user, I'd say dell are brilliant with support. Sure it's a bit harder to get a tech out to your home than it used to be, but still simple.
I had my XPS fans replaced just last month, in my living room, for free.
(UK)
I had my XPS fans replaced just last month, in my living room, for free.
(UK)
I would assume any differences in service quality come down to regional differences too.
Sure, as long as the employer does not give me the choice limited to win or mac. Which they often do.
Shouldn't employer also pay for the the mandated equipment and upkeep thereof?
Usually they do. I worked at one place where they issued me a junk laptop that was a hand-me-down from a saleman who couldn't sell. I was ready to quit over the slow builds but I wound up just buying my own development box which somewhat shocked my boss but it turned out OK.
Everywhere else I got a machine that was the same as what everybody else got except for the place that used Macs everywhere but I was the machine learning engineer so I got an Alienware laptop with a good GPU.
Everywhere else I got a machine that was the same as what everybody else got except for the place that used Macs everywhere but I was the machine learning engineer so I got an Alienware laptop with a good GPU.
Framework runs Windows just fine.
what about revolution?
I used to work for an AASP. During the pandemic. Getting parts was a hassle and a lot of things had to be mailed in to a repair depot. This is nothing new and non-news
> During the pandemic.
> This is nothing new and non-news
You should check the news again, because the pandemic is over now.
Also, I got my 2014 MacBook Pro battery replaced onsite in 2021 for $200.
> This is nothing new and non-news
You should check the news again, because the pandemic is over now.
Also, I got my 2014 MacBook Pro battery replaced onsite in 2021 for $200.
I am an AASP. I replace apple silicon batteries under warranty. They don't require a mail-in. Not sure why his local AASP told him that. I stopped reading after that.
Probably he went to some Apple reseller that passes repairs to a real AASP. I've seen that arrangement in my vicinity and you're better off going directly to the repair centre. Not everyone knows that though.
> Probably he went to some Apple reseller that passes repairs to a real AASP.
No, it's definitely performed in-house. I can literally see their workshop and talk to the technicians. Not to mention that same-day service would have been very difficult if it were passed off to someone else. And there aren't many AASPs in my town anyway.
No, it's definitely performed in-house. I can literally see their workshop and talk to the technicians. Not to mention that same-day service would have been very difficult if it were passed off to someone else. And there aren't many AASPs in my town anyway.
This needs to be the top voted comment. Also MacBook Battery replacement with whole keyboard has been a thing for 12+ years at least.
> MacBook Battery replacement with whole keyboard has been a thing for 12+ years at least.
As stated in the blog post, my last two MacBook Pro battery replacements, without AppleCare, were $200 not $600, so clearly something has changed.
As stated in the blog post, my last two MacBook Pro battery replacements, without AppleCare, were $200 not $600, so clearly something has changed.
AASP: Apple Authorized Service Providers
> I am an AASP. I replace apple silicon batteries under warranty.
In the United States?
In the United States?
Yup, They do not require me to mail in the device. I order a top case w battery or a replacement battery depending on the model.
Well, I don't know. Like I said, I've been going to the same place for years, and they've done battery replacements and other work for me before, and I've never had a problem. It doesn't seem plausible that they would turn away business.
Which state are you in?
Which state are you in?
[deleted]
Why no AppleCare? This would have been replaced free. This was a poor hedge. (Edit: missed the applecare bit)
As for the battery being sold with the top case, I have less of a problem than many with this as it's difficult to ship the batteries safely or remove or replace them in these machines. That's a design flaw which I hope they will sort out at some point but at the moment it is what it is. What is objectionable is that the rebate for the part that is returned is really really poor if you use the self-service repair store. £510 spend for an £85 return. If that's just the battery that's gone it's a rip off.
My risk is that if I have a problem with mine, I will just buy another one though. It paid for itself in under 3 days when I bought it.
As for the battery being sold with the top case, I have less of a problem than many with this as it's difficult to ship the batteries safely or remove or replace them in these machines. That's a design flaw which I hope they will sort out at some point but at the moment it is what it is. What is objectionable is that the rebate for the part that is returned is really really poor if you use the self-service repair store. £510 spend for an £85 return. If that's just the battery that's gone it's a rip off.
My risk is that if I have a problem with mine, I will just buy another one though. It paid for itself in under 3 days when I bought it.
Did you even read the article? He has AppleCare+. His problem is that it has to be mailed in.
Also we have been shipping laptop batteries forever... so it is possible.
I am curious how a 1500$ macbook paid itself in 3 days?
Also we have been shipping laptop batteries forever... so it is possible.
I am curious how a 1500$ macbook paid itself in 3 days?
Damaged or used lithium ion batteries must be transported by surface mail only, in the USA.
https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_032.htm
https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_032.htm
In this case the new battery would be sent to the repair shop.
Instead Apple wants the laptop (with the old battery) being sent.
Ok I completely missed that despite reading it. Clearly not enough coffee. As for mail in, you only have to mail in custom configs usually. If you get an off the shelf one they do it in store. I've done a couple before. One took an hour.
Batteries - well they need to be stuck to something so they don't bend. Apple's design flaw is sticking it to the top case which is the problem.
Well it was a $2500 MBP and it paid itself off because I made more cash than that in 3 days with it (unfucking an iOS app for someone).
Batteries - well they need to be stuck to something so they don't bend. Apple's design flaw is sticking it to the top case which is the problem.
Well it was a $2500 MBP and it paid itself off because I made more cash than that in 3 days with it (unfucking an iOS app for someone).
> As for mail in, you only have to mail in custom configs usually. If you get an off the shelf one they do it in store.
It is an off the shelf model. I bought such a model specifically because I knew it would be easier for returns and such.
It is an off the shelf model. I bought such a model specifically because I knew it would be easier for returns and such.
> Did you even read the article? He has AppleCare+. His problem is that it has to be mailed in.
So just ask the store for a loaner. Or rent one. Or buy another one and return it before the cooling off window closes.
So just ask the store for a loaner. Or rent one. Or buy another one and return it before the cooling off window closes.
[1] https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85