Ask HN: I am Software Engineer 30yo and I feel purposeless
23 comments
I have had this a few times in my career (I am 50 and have been building software and hardware professionally for 35 years).
I always found it means it’s time to move on to something I enjoy again. I have a good track record of solving stuff other people don’t like (I, for instance, like projects with millions of lines of terrible code that no one knows how to fix/add on to) and I have a good track record for rapidly doing a tech startup. MVPs I have done in a weekend and had the startups I did it for raise millions. But what I personally hate is an actual business… I like the seed stage, the bustle, the sleeping under the desk to push it out. When it starts to make real money I get bored and depressed; when I enter the 40th meeting about some drop shadow of a button or when we ‘need to’ discuss trivial new functionality for days with 10+ people. When every day becomes working down the same task lists and processes are hardened so all code looks the same because standards (usually 1000x more work to write than just hacking it). I accepted this but when I like a place, I still sometimes (last time was 2020) fall in the trap that I stay too long. And then I start to feel useless, I don't want to work on some feature for weeks that most people won’t notice etc. It feels pointless and then I feel like you describe.
I fixed it so far every time by moving to another country and going into (one or more) startups. Currently I am in 4 startups; I like two of them a bit too much so hope I will be strong enough to get out soon.
I always found it means it’s time to move on to something I enjoy again. I have a good track record of solving stuff other people don’t like (I, for instance, like projects with millions of lines of terrible code that no one knows how to fix/add on to) and I have a good track record for rapidly doing a tech startup. MVPs I have done in a weekend and had the startups I did it for raise millions. But what I personally hate is an actual business… I like the seed stage, the bustle, the sleeping under the desk to push it out. When it starts to make real money I get bored and depressed; when I enter the 40th meeting about some drop shadow of a button or when we ‘need to’ discuss trivial new functionality for days with 10+ people. When every day becomes working down the same task lists and processes are hardened so all code looks the same because standards (usually 1000x more work to write than just hacking it). I accepted this but when I like a place, I still sometimes (last time was 2020) fall in the trap that I stay too long. And then I start to feel useless, I don't want to work on some feature for weeks that most people won’t notice etc. It feels pointless and then I feel like you describe.
I fixed it so far every time by moving to another country and going into (one or more) startups. Currently I am in 4 startups; I like two of them a bit too much so hope I will be strong enough to get out soon.
How you are generating ideas about which startup to make?
I don’t make them myself usually; I find founders looking for a cto. Which is a misnomer; I am not a cto, I like to start things. They have the ideas, I start things and then move on.
That sounds very interesting. How you find founders? Which ways do you recommend?
In the olden days forums, now Reddit or HN. I just write to people who started something and have no tech co founder.
Any other advices you can give to person that is interested in doing same thing?
This are all absolutely burnout symptoms. The brain is forcing the body to march, but the body is rebelling against the lack of progress. See Maslach Burnout Inventory for a full list.
The only known cures for burnout is either removing yourself from the environment or getting more progress. You might be measuring progress differently to your body. Your body wants good food, exercise, sex, hugs, friends, spirituality, sleep, etc.
One trap people tend to fall into is early retirement - work life sucks, therefore, save money, live like a miser, work like a dog, and it will be over by 40. But the body may not take this very well. I'm not saying FIRE is bad, but be careful how you do it.
The only known cures for burnout is either removing yourself from the environment or getting more progress. You might be measuring progress differently to your body. Your body wants good food, exercise, sex, hugs, friends, spirituality, sleep, etc.
One trap people tend to fall into is early retirement - work life sucks, therefore, save money, live like a miser, work like a dog, and it will be over by 40. But the body may not take this very well. I'm not saying FIRE is bad, but be careful how you do it.
These feelings started for me in my early thirties too. It sounds like typical burnout. Working the corporate life is soul-sucking, so don't discount the influence of that on your mental wellbeing. The repetition, the bullshit (I'm looking at you Scrum), the competitiveness, the politics, and feelings of imposter syndrome, it all has the power to wear you down to a nub, and after a while you begin to question what it's all for. The bottomline is the pay check is the only reason you stay, because you need a livelihood. This causes you to feel trapped and joyless. And, in my case at least, and it sounds like possibly yours, we derived meaning and satisfaction from our work earlier in our careers and are struggling with the fact that this is no longer the case. I've come to realize that for me, part of this was due to my own naiveté in the beginning of my career and I'll probably never recapture those early days of starting a Monday with vim and vigor. I think the term for this is jaded.
I saw a video pop into my feed the other day which was timely, discussing this very subject. Maybe you'll find something useful in it, or at the very least find it relatable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEWV5yaj_2o&pp=ygUQcHJpbWFnZ...
I saw a video pop into my feed the other day which was timely, discussing this very subject. Maybe you'll find something useful in it, or at the very least find it relatable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEWV5yaj_2o&pp=ygUQcHJpbWFnZ...
And even more soul crushing, sometimes the paycheck is significantly higher than any alternative vocational career options one might have in mind.
The idea of earning less seems almost crazy when you look at the increasing cost of living in major cities.
The idea of earning less seems almost crazy when you look at the increasing cost of living in major cities.
> I've always looked for purpose in work
Here is your problem root cause - wrong expectations.
Obvious solution would be to change the expectations.
Your work is not your god nor your mommy to bless you with motivation, meaning, higher calling etc.
Children. Please don’t make them to satisfy your craving for meaning, this would eventually make yours and their life miserable.
I personally made kids because I thought it was the right thing to do and because i had a partner who shared my views.
I knew in advance it will be hard and i will not get any magical meaning bestowed upon me.
At the same time they gave me extraordinary motivation to pull myself out of my spiritually and somewhat economically miserable life.
Here is your problem root cause - wrong expectations.
Obvious solution would be to change the expectations.
Your work is not your god nor your mommy to bless you with motivation, meaning, higher calling etc.
Children. Please don’t make them to satisfy your craving for meaning, this would eventually make yours and their life miserable.
I personally made kids because I thought it was the right thing to do and because i had a partner who shared my views.
I knew in advance it will be hard and i will not get any magical meaning bestowed upon me.
At the same time they gave me extraordinary motivation to pull myself out of my spiritually and somewhat economically miserable life.
I believe most people feel like this. Don't chalk it up to "the crisis of the 30s". That's media-talk. That's years of movies and tv series teaching you that men looking for purpose after 30 are somehow cringe. If there's one bit I want you to take away is: never gaslight yourself. You feel like your job is fake because IT IS fake. Chances are, your work is boring, repetitive and meaningless just as you described. For all the material comforts and advances in health-care, there's something deeply unsettling about the modern world. My advice is to accept that, on some level, happiness is about taking care about your biological needs. Go back to basics: do you sleep well and long enough? What is your diet comprised of? How often do you have sex? Do you practice any sport? How much time do you spend in nature? When you feel truly alive, you also feel less pressured to find a purpose. At the same time, you will be mentally and emotionally equipped to seek one.
i would say that even if you don't want to label it as burnout or depression, absolutely pay attention to the symptoms you're experiencing, because they are worth addressing with or without a label on it.
i had a burnout experience a few years ago, and didn't realise until i got a very strange symptom. i was constantly thirsty for water, even after drinking two litres of it. apparently this is a stress-symptom some people experience.
to give you advice:
if you want change but not sure where to start, simply pick one small thing and see how it makes you feel. you have mentioned starting your own business... perhaps start sketching on it and observe. listen closely to your mind and body as you go through the process, did it light a fire or feel like a chore? imo, sitting around thinking about doing things is a mind-numbing experience, it's by going through them we get information about what it means.
if you're actually ready to leave the life you're in and looking for validation, watch Office Space. it will calm your nerves and make you feel great about switching directions in life towards something more meaningful. i sent it to my brother when he had a similar crisis and it helped him.
best of luck!
i had a burnout experience a few years ago, and didn't realise until i got a very strange symptom. i was constantly thirsty for water, even after drinking two litres of it. apparently this is a stress-symptom some people experience.
to give you advice:
if you want change but not sure where to start, simply pick one small thing and see how it makes you feel. you have mentioned starting your own business... perhaps start sketching on it and observe. listen closely to your mind and body as you go through the process, did it light a fire or feel like a chore? imo, sitting around thinking about doing things is a mind-numbing experience, it's by going through them we get information about what it means.
if you're actually ready to leave the life you're in and looking for validation, watch Office Space. it will calm your nerves and make you feel great about switching directions in life towards something more meaningful. i sent it to my brother when he had a similar crisis and it helped him.
best of luck!
Lots of good advice here. I recommend that in addition to exercise, good diet choices, and trying out some recreational things (hobbies, sports, etc) find a therapist to talk to. You might just be dealing with the malaise of maturing and gaining a greater understanding of the world, but you might also be dealing with something else. Just like you see a doctor if your foot starts to hurt randomly, see a psychiatric doctor if your mind and the way you feel changes. Maybe it’s a small thing, maybe not. Brains are weird. And in case you’re not sure, it’s totally fine and normal and there is no shame in it.
You thought your work life will be an exciting adventure. This is misguided expectation, as it only happens for a very small minority of people, most of whom are privileged (born in advanced countries, very talented and hard-working, having a LOT of luck to end up in a spot which is genuinely satisfying). I think you need to go through the grieving process that will end up with acceptance that your life will not end up being what you had hoped, and then find a new purpose, other than work and career.
Awe man I know exactly how you feel. A lot of the time I feel stuck because I need to earn a living and support my family. No other industry will pay like the software industry.
I too used to wait for Mondays and get excited about going to work. I used to relish that feeling of solving a big hard problem. Now having gone through enough rounds of corporate BS, layoffs, reorgs, incompetence, greed, and the like you wonder “what’s it all for”. You also look at the world and see more pressing problems than adding an AI chatbot to a photo sharing app.
Much of it is how the industry has changed. I don’t dislike software engineering. In fact i love it. I dislike all the BS - especially in the last few years. Previously it felt like we were on the “same team” pushing for big change with the big tech companies. Increasingly they’re just pale images of their former self. “Don’t be evil” is far far gone from the ethos of these companies that have no qualms sacrificing values once core to Silicon Valley and the project of an open internet. Now it just seems they rode those “values” to a certain level of profitability and discarded them to get to the next level of making money. Now their is a strong feeling amongst management engineers are entitled babies, and a corresponding distrust of increasingly, and disconnected, narcissistic tech executives.
I would recommend taking breaks and leaving any and all laptops at home. Establish an identity away from work be it as a dad, husband, with hobbies or otherwise. You can also find ways to volunteer in your community. And don’t discount seeing a mental health professional!
Professionally my most fulfilling days involve mentoring and being of service to others. Helping someone else have a fulfilling career leaves me feeling better than solving a big hairy tech problem these days.
I too used to wait for Mondays and get excited about going to work. I used to relish that feeling of solving a big hard problem. Now having gone through enough rounds of corporate BS, layoffs, reorgs, incompetence, greed, and the like you wonder “what’s it all for”. You also look at the world and see more pressing problems than adding an AI chatbot to a photo sharing app.
Much of it is how the industry has changed. I don’t dislike software engineering. In fact i love it. I dislike all the BS - especially in the last few years. Previously it felt like we were on the “same team” pushing for big change with the big tech companies. Increasingly they’re just pale images of their former self. “Don’t be evil” is far far gone from the ethos of these companies that have no qualms sacrificing values once core to Silicon Valley and the project of an open internet. Now it just seems they rode those “values” to a certain level of profitability and discarded them to get to the next level of making money. Now their is a strong feeling amongst management engineers are entitled babies, and a corresponding distrust of increasingly, and disconnected, narcissistic tech executives.
I would recommend taking breaks and leaving any and all laptops at home. Establish an identity away from work be it as a dad, husband, with hobbies or otherwise. You can also find ways to volunteer in your community. And don’t discount seeing a mental health professional!
Professionally my most fulfilling days involve mentoring and being of service to others. Helping someone else have a fulfilling career leaves me feeling better than solving a big hairy tech problem these days.
I've burnt out on work multiple times and it's not fun, but to be honest the first paragraph is not how it felt at all. The word burnout didn't even come to mind until I read the other comments. At the risk of armchair diagnosis, it sounds like it could be depression. It is worth bringing up with a professional. Wish you the best, hope you get through it, whatever it is.
Sounds like you are either burned out or depressed. So yes, other people have felt like this. If you are burned out, you need a break for a few months. If you are depressed, you need a therapist. And I might suggest a therapist either way to help figure out which one of those states you are in, or if some other thing is going on.
I'm thirty three. I faced the same around that age of yours.
If I'm right, at 26 to 27 you would have had some peak strange strong experience.
What goes up. Must come down.
This period is your down period, you will bounce back.
If I'm right, we may experience the peak, again at 52 to 54.
There is a commenter at age 50 and he will experience the same strong peak again when he reaches 52 to 54.
If I'm right, at 26 to 27 you would have had some peak strange strong experience.
What goes up. Must come down.
This period is your down period, you will bounce back.
If I'm right, we may experience the peak, again at 52 to 54.
There is a commenter at age 50 and he will experience the same strong peak again when he reaches 52 to 54.
The ennui/nihilism/existentialism seems to have hit me very young; well before I had the words to describe it. You can certainly see its effects on artists and philosophers throughout history. I found Voltaire rather poignant as a teenager and very recently read Tolstoy's "A Confession" which was interesting because he mentioned reading Voltaire as well. More recently, you can see Mike Judge's work (growing up and realizing that your life has become "Office Space" is sort of a mid-life cliche amongst tech workers) and in "Rick and Morty" (with some good juvenile humor thrown in).
I never imagined having children and I think that's a big part of why - it seems rather cruel to create someone who will face the same blackhole of meaninglessness as a way to assuage my own troubles, and I doubt it would work anyway.
Most people throughout history I believe have mitigated this via religion; I think it can be very helpful if you are able to believe in one. My problem is that I never have really been able to.
So I guess I'm onto the next techbro cliche - I've got a book or two on stoicism that I mean to read through at some point and see if there's anything to that.
All that is to say that I think it's pretty tough. I will say that I moved to a smaller company awhile back and it at least feels like I get to make some decisions that matter at least a bit; it's been a good change of pace.
I never imagined having children and I think that's a big part of why - it seems rather cruel to create someone who will face the same blackhole of meaninglessness as a way to assuage my own troubles, and I doubt it would work anyway.
Most people throughout history I believe have mitigated this via religion; I think it can be very helpful if you are able to believe in one. My problem is that I never have really been able to.
So I guess I'm onto the next techbro cliche - I've got a book or two on stoicism that I mean to read through at some point and see if there's anything to that.
All that is to say that I think it's pretty tough. I will say that I moved to a smaller company awhile back and it at least feels like I get to make some decisions that matter at least a bit; it's been a good change of pace.
> I've got a book or two on stoicism that I mean to read through at some point and see if there's anything to that.
I think Stoics believed that being "stoic" (quiety going through the suffering) was neccessary to accomplish something good. Which is a problem, because the modern worker often does not want to accomplish anything and sees no point to anything. People with children at least have a purpose of providing support for them, but others often don't see any point to existing, other than the self-preservation instinct.
I think Stoics believed that being "stoic" (quiety going through the suffering) was neccessary to accomplish something good. Which is a problem, because the modern worker often does not want to accomplish anything and sees no point to anything. People with children at least have a purpose of providing support for them, but others often don't see any point to existing, other than the self-preservation instinct.
I guess it's the norm for ordinary people actually, but most of us get used to it and numb our heart.
C'est la vie. It's the Existential crisis every modern human gets hit.
C'est la vie. It's the Existential crisis every modern human gets hit.
This worldly life is no more than play and amusement. But the Hereafter is indeed the real life, if only they knew. [1]
Know that this worldly life is no more than play, amusement, luxury, mutual boasting, and competition in wealth and children. This is like rain that causes plants to grow, to the delight of the planters. But later the plants dry up and you see them wither, then they are reduced to chaff. And in the Hereafter there will be either severe punishment or forgiveness and pleasure of Allah, whereas the life of this world is no more than the delusion of enjoyment. [2]
[1] https://quran.com/29:64
[2] https://quran.com/57:20
Know that this worldly life is no more than play, amusement, luxury, mutual boasting, and competition in wealth and children. This is like rain that causes plants to grow, to the delight of the planters. But later the plants dry up and you see them wither, then they are reduced to chaff. And in the Hereafter there will be either severe punishment or forgiveness and pleasure of Allah, whereas the life of this world is no more than the delusion of enjoyment. [2]
[1] https://quran.com/29:64
[2] https://quran.com/57:20
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I think that a big part of the issue is work, I have wrong expectations about work in life. I've always looked for purpose in work, and it has been like that for the first few years of my career. I used to honestly look forward to Mondays to wake up and go to the office. I was unable to get sleep on Sundays because of how excited I was about the work I was going to do the next morning. And I guess that it can be like that for the first years of a career, but now work is boring, repetitive and meaningless. I feel like working is fake, like if nothing matters, I am tired of the corporate business, how fake it is, unproductive, bureaucratic, unfair, contemptuous and all for nothing, just for the sake of hiring more people, make the organization tree structure grow so managers and directors can have more people reporting to them and increase their salaries, without never actually resolving actual problems or making the service any better. And I feel bad for feeling like this, because I am seen as privileged by my family and friends because of the salary I earn and because I've been able to leave my country, which is economically badly positioned.
I guess this is the crisis of 30s, the point where most people decide to “fix it” and get purpose in life by having children (maybe it works?), but that doesn’t help me, it doesn't help me to go through this, to resolve this situation that I am facing. I don’t want to just accept it and get delusional and to be one more sad gear of the corporate clock. I don’t want that because I am bored of my career. It affects my relationship with the people I love and with myself. And I would feel like a failure for having everything I could have ever asked in life for but not being able to be happy.
I don’t know if I should push harder and start my own business to try to get purpose from that (which I know sounds wrong and like hitting my head against a wall), or to surrender and focus on other aspects of life and just be a mediocre developer, because I don’t feel like trying much harder in a regular job (which sounds even sadder, I think I would prefer hitting my head against a wall). This feeling changes from week to week, maybe next week I will try hard to be interested and passionate in the task I am working on and the next week I will go back to not caring about it.
Have you ever felt like this?