Automattic–WP Engine Term Sheet(automattic.com)
automattic.com
Automattic–WP Engine Term Sheet
https://automattic.com/2024/10/01/wpe-terms/
107 comments
I'm not laughing. The whole Wordpress ecosystem was shown to instead be the personal fiefdom of a vindictive fool. A fool willing to completely destroy the reputation and trust of the ecosystem for what looks and smells like a personal vendetta.
The whole idea of the separate entities of Wordpress.org, the Wordpress Foundation (which we learned is somehow not the same as Wordpress.org) and Wordpress.com (through Automattic) is nothing more than a smokescreen. If you're in the business of competing with Automattic in delivering Wordpress hosting, start building an exit plan.
The whole idea of the separate entities of Wordpress.org, the Wordpress Foundation (which we learned is somehow not the same as Wordpress.org) and Wordpress.com (through Automattic) is nothing more than a smokescreen. If you're in the business of competing with Automattic in delivering Wordpress hosting, start building an exit plan.
The guy from WP-Engine literally posted screenshot of texts from the WordPress guy demanding money in a ransom-style tone.
At this point I hope this goes to court, so things can be properly examined according to law, otherwise it looks like childish tantrum.
At this point I hope this goes to court, so things can be properly examined according to law, otherwise it looks like childish tantrum.
> The guy from WP-Engine
Who? Do you have a link?
Who? Do you have a link?
They are in the C&D WP Engine sent. Starting on the second page.
https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-De...
https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-De...
> >That is not true. Automattic asked for a verbal agreement that WP Engine would give some percentage of their revenue back into WordPress, either in the form of a trademark agreement or employee hours spent on core WordPress.
In the term sheet, it's phrased as:
> Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org.
So, pay for employees to be directed by WordPress.org (not Automattic or WordPress Foundation, apparently just Matt).
In the term sheet, it's phrased as:
> Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org.
So, pay for employees to be directed by WordPress.org (not Automattic or WordPress Foundation, apparently just Matt).
Adding to the strangeness, as the owner of WordPress.org, is Matt violating the trademark owned by the foundation or is there another undisclosed licensing agreement?
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Well, it is true that money wasn't the only option.
And the quote is out of context.
The article also gives a timetable of conversations that happened between Automattic and WP Engine well in advance; therefore, the demands shouldn't have been a surprise, as claimed.
And the quote is out of context.
The article also gives a timetable of conversations that happened between Automattic and WP Engine well in advance; therefore, the demands shouldn't have been a surprise, as claimed.
Those are the first two paragraphs of the article. Verbatim. Can't get more in context than that.
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How can the 'Fee' possibly be justified?
"2. Fee. In exchange for the License Grant, WP Engine shall do one of the following:
(a) Pay Automattic a royalty fee equal to 8% of its Gross Revenue on a monthly basis, within fifteen days of the end of each month. "Gross Revenue" means all revenue generated by WP Engine from the sale of its services, calculated without deductions for taxes, refunds, or other costs. WP Engine will also provide Automattic a detailed monthly report of its Gross Revenue within fifteen days of the close of each calendar month, including a product line breakdown of all revenues generated. Automattic will have full audit rights.
(b) Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org. WP Engine will provide Automattic a detailed monthly report demonstrating its fulfillment of this commitment. WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking.
(c) Some combination of the above two options'
"2. Fee. In exchange for the License Grant, WP Engine shall do one of the following:
(a) Pay Automattic a royalty fee equal to 8% of its Gross Revenue on a monthly basis, within fifteen days of the end of each month. "Gross Revenue" means all revenue generated by WP Engine from the sale of its services, calculated without deductions for taxes, refunds, or other costs. WP Engine will also provide Automattic a detailed monthly report of its Gross Revenue within fifteen days of the close of each calendar month, including a product line breakdown of all revenues generated. Automattic will have full audit rights.
(b) Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org. WP Engine will provide Automattic a detailed monthly report demonstrating its fulfillment of this commitment. WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking.
(c) Some combination of the above two options'
ref. https://automattic.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/term-sheet... -- for those unsure where this quote comes from.
It's hard to imagine how any one can read that as anything other than extortion, and at least, that WP Engine's claims are verbatim correct. The level of self-awareness in operation here is concerning, as in, it's kinda spiraling-out-of-control behaviour.
It's hard to imagine how any one can read that as anything other than extortion, and at least, that WP Engine's claims are verbatim correct. The level of self-awareness in operation here is concerning, as in, it's kinda spiraling-out-of-control behaviour.
Is there much of a way back reputationally for Mullengweg and Automattic now? When does this start seriously impacting trust in WordPress, if it hasn't already? I'm bemused by it all.
8% of *gross revenue* is comical. That's easily their entire profit margin, if not more so. It's hard to imagine anything so out of touch with reality.
The only way out of this would be, "im having a mental breakdown, i'm retracting everything, please bear with me for 6mo"
The only way out of this would be, "im having a mental breakdown, i'm retracting everything, please bear with me for 6mo"
> 8% of gross revenue is comical. That's easily their entire profit margin, if not more so.
The cheapest wordpress hosting plan they have is $20/month. Even if they gave every site its own dedicated hardware (they dont), gross margins would be over 50%. Since their hosting infrastructure is shared, actual gross margin is probably over 90%.
8% is still an unreasonable ask, but it shouldn't be anywhere close to their entire net profit.
The cheapest wordpress hosting plan they have is $20/month. Even if they gave every site its own dedicated hardware (they dont), gross margins would be over 50%. Since their hosting infrastructure is shared, actual gross margin is probably over 90%.
8% is still an unreasonable ask, but it shouldn't be anywhere close to their entire net profit.
So as long as they dont have staff, or other costs, we're sure they'll be fine.
But OTOH spending 8% of gross revenue on developing the core of all their products and services isn't ridiculously high. It may well be more than typical, but not ridiculously so.
Should they also spend 8% of their revenue on contributing to linux?
Their stack is basically LAMP+Wordpress. 8% on that? I think that's reasonable.
More to the point, while WP Engine had the same right as everyone else to download and install the open source software they use, the right to download, install and use doesn't generate a duty for anyone to supply WP Engine with updates, not even for important things like security fixes. It also doesn't generate a duty for the maintainers to treat WP Engine civilly. Or a duty to serve WP Engine in any way.
Someone who operates a free service to all comers is almost 100% free to stop doing that — or at least not constrained by WP Engine's having downloaded or installed some software. Want to firewall away Iran from your free service? No law prevents you. Want to firewall away WP Engine? Again, no law prevents you, and WP Engine appears not to want to sign a contract that would prevent it.
Normally, we go a little further than the law requires of us. WP Engine's made it fairly clear that it's not going further than required of it, so I don't think it has any right to expect more of Automattic/Wordpress.org than the law requires of them.
(FWIW, I've been in this situation: I've been a full-time maintainer of popular open source code, and some people expected me to do work that they didn't see any reason to pay for.)
More to the point, while WP Engine had the same right as everyone else to download and install the open source software they use, the right to download, install and use doesn't generate a duty for anyone to supply WP Engine with updates, not even for important things like security fixes. It also doesn't generate a duty for the maintainers to treat WP Engine civilly. Or a duty to serve WP Engine in any way.
Someone who operates a free service to all comers is almost 100% free to stop doing that — or at least not constrained by WP Engine's having downloaded or installed some software. Want to firewall away Iran from your free service? No law prevents you. Want to firewall away WP Engine? Again, no law prevents you, and WP Engine appears not to want to sign a contract that would prevent it.
Normally, we go a little further than the law requires of us. WP Engine's made it fairly clear that it's not going further than required of it, so I don't think it has any right to expect more of Automattic/Wordpress.org than the law requires of them.
(FWIW, I've been in this situation: I've been a full-time maintainer of popular open source code, and some people expected me to do work that they didn't see any reason to pay for.)
Most likely an opening offer to be negotiated down to 3-5% would be my guess.
This looks very strange:
"Automattic will have full audit rights."
"WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking."
"Automattic will have full audit rights."
"WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking."
Well it's basically saying, just give us the money. The "audit rights" only apply if they're donating time, so they want that to be the most difficult and intrusive option -- ie., its only there for PR.
The choice is, "some money and we'll look the other way; or open all your books, and donate 8% of your workforce to wordpress"
The choice is, "some money and we'll look the other way; or open all your books, and donate 8% of your workforce to wordpress"
isn't that necessary given the request of a revenue percentage?
Could automattic know the exact numbers in a different way, since WPEngine is not a public company?
Could automattic know the exact numbers in a different way, since WPEngine is not a public company?
Agree with this. Is this correct?
It's there in the Fee section.....
I get that regulatory bodies should have access under certain conditions, but letting a competitor do this? Makes zero sense.
I get that regulatory bodies should have access under certain conditions, but letting a competitor do this? Makes zero sense.
Surely this would be a violation of HIPAA, Privacy and any number of state laws.
You can't just give out confidential employee records to third parties.
You can't just give out confidential employee records to third parties.
None of these parties are subject to HIPAA.
Employee health records are often stored in third party systems that are subject to HIPAA.
Point is that Automattic would have full access to this as well.
Point is that Automattic would have full access to this as well.
Those providers may be subject to it.
Attempts to go fishing in such records would be pretty unlikely to succeed; it'd be an uneforcable request contrary to public policy, with no relevance to such an audit. It would be correctly and easily fought.
Attempts to go fishing in such records would be pretty unlikely to succeed; it'd be an uneforcable request contrary to public policy, with no relevance to such an audit. It would be correctly and easily fought.
> One of the many lies in Silver Lake and WP Engine’s C&D was their claim that Automattic demanded money from them....
That is not true. Automattic asked for a verbal agreement that WP Engine would give some percentage of their revenue back into WordPress
So, it is true.
So, it is true.
This is probably the strangest post I have read in a long time.
"They claim that we demanded money from them around these dates.. not true!"
"So here is the demand for money that we requested they sign, around these dates"
Maybe I'm not reading this correctly but... it seems like the most obvious interpretation.
Also, what is the purpose of listing all these dates when the two companies met? Without knowing the content of these discussions, this list doesn't remotely meet the community's request for transparency.
"They claim that we demanded money from them around these dates.. not true!"
"So here is the demand for money that we requested they sign, around these dates"
Maybe I'm not reading this correctly but... it seems like the most obvious interpretation.
Also, what is the purpose of listing all these dates when the two companies met? Without knowing the content of these discussions, this list doesn't remotely meet the community's request for transparency.
The dates feel like intentional deception. The community question is "how long have you been discussing trademark usage?" and the answer is "I had lunch in February 2023!"
Like somebody not trying to be deceptive would say "we started talking about trademarks and a commercial relationship in February 2023", but that's not what this post says, and that's not the answer Matt has given in interviews, it's always this strange list of dates instead.
Like somebody not trying to be deceptive would say "we started talking about trademarks and a commercial relationship in February 2023", but that's not what this post says, and that's not the answer Matt has given in interviews, it's always this strange list of dates instead.
They asked for either
- money directly to Automattic, not the WordPress Foundation.
- employees working on WordPress core, at the direction of Automattic - including looking at their time sheets and employee files.
Neither of this is "back into WordPress", it's "to Automattic". The company that often did prioritize their workers to work on features benefitting WordPress.com users. There actually used to be a constant for checking if running inside WPCOM in WP Core, but they seem to have removed it since. Let's not even talk about Jetpack and carving out shit from your core product, that gives me too many AOSP vs Play Services vibes.
Either way, WP Engine is a competitor of Automattic. This is laughable. I hope they fork WordPress, because I'd feel uncomfortable contributing software to the benefit of such a bully (I am a former contibutor).
- money directly to Automattic, not the WordPress Foundation.
- employees working on WordPress core, at the direction of Automattic - including looking at their time sheets and employee files.
Neither of this is "back into WordPress", it's "to Automattic". The company that often did prioritize their workers to work on features benefitting WordPress.com users. There actually used to be a constant for checking if running inside WPCOM in WP Core, but they seem to have removed it since. Let's not even talk about Jetpack and carving out shit from your core product, that gives me too many AOSP vs Play Services vibes.
Either way, WP Engine is a competitor of Automattic. This is laughable. I hope they fork WordPress, because I'd feel uncomfortable contributing software to the benefit of such a bully (I am a former contibutor).
I thought the structure was set up in such a way that only Automattic has commercial rights to the Wordpress trademark. To balance this, Wordpress.org has discretionary power on deciding whether Automattic are good stewards of the trademark. Can Wordpress.org directly ask for the 8%? It seems like it has to be done through Automattic.
This whole situation was handled poorly, but can it really be considered bullying? It definitely speaks to the heart of the eternal problem of open source: the imbalance of givers and takers at the bazaar.
This whole situation was handled poorly, but can it really be considered bullying? It definitely speaks to the heart of the eternal problem of open source: the imbalance of givers and takers at the bazaar.
Matt Mullenweg has said that the WordPress Foundation, which is separate from WordPress.org (it gets confusing), could revoke the licenses that he (personally?) and Automattic have.
The public license agreement that Automattic has says the license is "perpetual, irrevocable:" https://www.pluginvulnerabilities.com/2024/10/02/matt-mullen...
The license that exists for WordPress.org, which seems to really be just him, doesn't appear to be public. It would be interesting to see who it really is with and what the terms really are.
The public license agreement that Automattic has says the license is "perpetual, irrevocable:" https://www.pluginvulnerabilities.com/2024/10/02/matt-mullen...
The license that exists for WordPress.org, which seems to really be just him, doesn't appear to be public. It would be interesting to see who it really is with and what the terms really are.
Honest question because I have no idea what the truth of the matter is: who even is WordPress.org?
According to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41692300, Matt Mullenweg said at some point in that long interview from a couple of days ago that he was operating WordPress.org personally, rather than the WordPress Foundation as I think people would typically assume.
According to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41692300, Matt Mullenweg said at some point in that long interview from a couple of days ago that he was operating WordPress.org personally, rather than the WordPress Foundation as I think people would typically assume.
Here it is straight from the horse’s mouth:
> > Do you really individually own http://WordPress.org?
> > Not Automattic? Not a different LLC or something? No employees? No board of directors?
> > Just you?
> Just me.
— https://x.com/grigs/status/1840958978043605361
> > Do you really individually own http://WordPress.org?
> > Not Automattic? Not a different LLC or something? No employees? No board of directors?
> > Just you?
> Just me.
— https://x.com/grigs/status/1840958978043605361
Yes, I'd say Automattic puppeteering Wordpress.org, the org set up as a visible layer of separation, to make their competitor look back and then poach their customers (https://pressable.com/wpe-contract-buyout/) is bullying, or "market distortion".
Matt's just mad he didn't capture the enterprise Wordpress hosting market earlier, with WordPress.com always being aimed at more casual users and Pressable only aquired in 2016.
Matt's just mad he didn't capture the enterprise Wordpress hosting market earlier, with WordPress.com always being aimed at more casual users and Pressable only aquired in 2016.
> Matt's just mad he didn't capture the enterprise Wordpress hosting market earlier, with WordPress.com always being aimed at more casual users and Pressable only aquired in 2016.
WordPress.com VIP is a thing though, and I think they've done a great job selling it to huge organisations.
WordPress.com VIP is a thing though, and I think they've done a great job selling it to huge organisations.
True. I think it's the middle to high end (but not enterprise) part of the market that WPEngine are dominating at the expense of Automattic.
The CEO of Automattic is the sole active board member of wordpress.org There's no balance there.
There is no board of Wordpress.org, it is owned personally.
> but can it really be considered bullying
No it's much more like extortion.
And it goes against everything open source has been about.
No it's much more like extortion.
And it goes against everything open source has been about.
[deleted]
So, to be clear: if I want to start a company using wordpress as core technology, I should expect to be extorted for around 8% if I get successful enough.
I cannot imagine "Automattic" has thought this through. There is no ransom agreement in open source, and the very basis of wordpress' success is the absence of such a thing.
What company now, looking at this technology, would touch it with a 100ft pole?
I cannot imagine "Automattic" has thought this through. There is no ransom agreement in open source, and the very basis of wordpress' success is the absence of such a thing.
What company now, looking at this technology, would touch it with a 100ft pole?
I am not sure if I understand this correctly but this is about using the WordPress trademark not using WordPress in itself. So I think you would be fine if you are offering it as a general website hosting.
I might be wrong though.
I might be wrong though.
I mean I guess using "WP" in their business name is kinda pushing it I guess, but offering Wordpress hosting while using the word "Wordpress" is fair game (IMO). A company can't/shouldn't be able to tell someone they can't use the trademark name in describing the service another company offers. How would that even work? "We offer hosting for the project that 80% of the websites in the world use!". If Wordpress (the project/company) allows someone to offer hosting of that project (ie: it's not a mongo type licence), they can't expect someone to not even use the name of the project they are offering hosting for.
Imagine if Linus prevented companies from saying they offer hosting using Linux.
Imagine if Linus prevented companies from saying they offer hosting using Linux.
> I mean I guess using "WP" in their business name is kinda pushing it I guess…
It was explicitly permitted by the WordPress foundation.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41643676
“The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit.”
It was explicitly permitted by the WordPress foundation.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41643676
“The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit.”
They've always been actively protecting their trademark. Also small companies or meetups using WordPress were asked to change that. I think they even have to do that legally to some degree to protect their trademark.
WP Engine has build their success on piggybacking the WordPress trademark, their slogan is "Most Trusted WordPress Hosting and Beyond".
It's probably fair they pay a fee for that.
If they would just use the open source software & would market it as a blog-hosting they would most likely be in the clear.
WP Engine has build their success on piggybacking the WordPress trademark, their slogan is "Most Trusted WordPress Hosting and Beyond".
It's probably fair they pay a fee for that.
If they would just use the open source software & would market it as a blog-hosting they would most likely be in the clear.
> They've always been actively protecting their trademark
The trademark is owned by the WordPress foundation not Automattic.
https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy
And it has been a standard in this industry for decades (e.g. LAMP) that saying 'X Hosting' does not mean that you should be considered the owner of X. It just means you host it.
The trademark is owned by the WordPress foundation not Automattic.
https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy
And it has been a standard in this industry for decades (e.g. LAMP) that saying 'X Hosting' does not mean that you should be considered the owner of X. It just means you host it.
And if you do a wayback machine till a few months ago on that policy, you'll find they actively give permission for others to use "WP"
So the idea theyve been protecting their trademark is against their own trademark policy
So the idea theyve been protecting their trademark is against their own trademark policy
The claim is that, while WP is legal, it is “WordPress Engine” that was also used (in press releases or tolerated in the writings of 3rd parties), alongside “WordPress Core”, a plan which they later renamed.
I don't know if this changes anything, but I'm guessing a lawsuit is coming, so we shall see. But it would be great if people did some research before commenting on the story.
I don't know if this changes anything, but I'm guessing a lawsuit is coming, so we shall see. But it would be great if people did some research before commenting on the story.
Whenever someone's asking for 8% of gross revenue, they've lost the plot regardless of the underlying claim. For most businesses that's easily much more they're taking in profit. One imagines were this agreement in place, WPEngine would have to raise their prices to levels beyond what any customer would pay.
Likewise, the use of "wordpress" as a trademark is clearly permitted when referring to wordpress; it's a common part of trademark law that you can refer to products in this manner. WPE customers do not think WPE is wordpress, it's a host.
cf., "The most trusted platform for WordPress" --https://wpengine.com
Likewise, the use of "wordpress" as a trademark is clearly permitted when referring to wordpress; it's a common part of trademark law that you can refer to products in this manner. WPE customers do not think WPE is wordpress, it's a host.
cf., "The most trusted platform for WordPress" --https://wpengine.com
> “WordPress Engine” that was also used (in press releases)
Do you have examples of these since you've done so much research ?
Look forward to Automattic also going after companies using the term "WordPress Plugin" as well.
Do you have examples of these since you've done so much research ?
Look forward to Automattic also going after companies using the term "WordPress Plugin" as well.
It's complicated. The trademark is indeed owned by The Foundation but they have granted Automattic an "exclusive, fully-paid, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sublicensable right and license to use and otherwise exploit the trademarks". This is only just coming to light.
So the Foundation appears to only own the trademarks on paper. Despite that, this is how Matt Mullenweg framed the trademark ownership situation to the community:
"the most central piece of WordPress’s identity, its name, is now fully independent from any company." he also claimed that Automattic had "give[n] up control" of the trademarks. Those statements are demonstrably untrue.
https://ma.tt/2010/09/wordpress-trademark/
https://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/assignment-tm-4233...
So the Foundation appears to only own the trademarks on paper. Despite that, this is how Matt Mullenweg framed the trademark ownership situation to the community:
"the most central piece of WordPress’s identity, its name, is now fully independent from any company." he also claimed that Automattic had "give[n] up control" of the trademarks. Those statements are demonstrably untrue.
https://ma.tt/2010/09/wordpress-trademark/
https://assignments.uspto.gov/assignments/assignment-tm-4233...
> Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.”
https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/
How does "Most Trusted" differ from "best" which is allowed?
https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/
How does "Most Trusted" differ from "best" which is allowed?
It's the implication of a single type of entity having the official endorsement. If you change "The" to "A" in the second one it'd be fine again.
I think you're getting them mixed up.
WP Engine's slogan is: "Most Trusted WordPress Hosting and Beyond"
What the WordPress foundations trademark policy specifically allows is: "the world’s best WordPress themes"
WP Engine's slogan is: "Most Trusted WordPress Hosting and Beyond"
What the WordPress foundations trademark policy specifically allows is: "the world’s best WordPress themes"
I think that's not the difference, if I read it correctly the difference is being a WordPress Host, vs a hosting company offering wordpress hosting.
I think the big difference is also the marketing WP Engine is running full on The WordPress hosting.
I think the big difference is also the marketing WP Engine is running full on The WordPress hosting.
> being a WordPress Host, vs a hosting company offering wordpress hosting
WPEngine is also offering Headless and WooCommerce as well as WordPress.
So your point makes absolutely no sense.
WPEngine is also offering Headless and WooCommerce as well as WordPress.
So your point makes absolutely no sense.
Woocommerce is a Wordpress plugin.
But that besides the point.
The question is when is a company piggybacking on a brand.
Maybe Automattic is asking for too much, but it’s very clear wp engine strongly benefited from the brand, not only the software. Just Google them now, they are marketing full on with Wordpress.
I don’t see a way how they won’t win this in court.
But that besides the point.
The question is when is a company piggybacking on a brand.
Maybe Automattic is asking for too much, but it’s very clear wp engine strongly benefited from the brand, not only the software. Just Google them now, they are marketing full on with Wordpress.
I don’t see a way how they won’t win this in court.
Automattic also owns WooCommerce.
But the software is called WordPress. How else should they say that they can host WordPress on their site without referring to it?
This feels like if you were to go after someone advertising themselves as a "Honda repair shop".
The sibling comment of "The WordPress Theme Portal" makes more sense as it might imply "The (Official) WordPress Theme Portal"
This feels like if you were to go after someone advertising themselves as a "Honda repair shop".
The sibling comment of "The WordPress Theme Portal" makes more sense as it might imply "The (Official) WordPress Theme Portal"
It seems more like someone advertising as a Honda dealership.
Yeah when I go to WPEngine site it feels like they copy-pasted it.
This is the thing about open source is MOST people do not contribute anything. And we’re seeing this trend with the whole Continue.dev situation too. Copy-paste, rebrand, make some money.
I think everyone needs to consider what the O.G. Wordpress team has created—and how many hours of blood, sweat, and tears went in. And then some folks just copy-paste and siphon out their business.
This is the thing about open source is MOST people do not contribute anything. And we’re seeing this trend with the whole Continue.dev situation too. Copy-paste, rebrand, make some money.
I think everyone needs to consider what the O.G. Wordpress team has created—and how many hours of blood, sweat, and tears went in. And then some folks just copy-paste and siphon out their business.
Fun fact. Matt Mullenweg himself was a seed investor in WPEngine. He has either sold since then, or his share has been diluted to the point of being meaningless.
The reality is that he had no problem with WPEngine until recently. Just last year he spoke at their conference.
The reality is that he had no problem with WPEngine until recently. Just last year he spoke at their conference.
They explicitly allowed it. If you don't want to be taken advantage of, put it in the license. It's honestly hard to feel sympathy for companies that release a product under a what some meme circles have called a "cuck license"¹ and then complain when some other entity adheres to the license.
1: https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/why-i-use-the-gpl-and-not-cuc...
(GPL would not help in this specific case — I believe the project is already under the GPL — but his general point still stands.)
1: https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/why-i-use-the-gpl-and-not-cuc...
(GPL would not help in this specific case — I believe the project is already under the GPL — but his general point still stands.)
Yeah I agree—they should use the AGPL as that’s the one that protects on the server side.
The thing that bothers me most about this ordeal is there’s now a “hidden license” for WordPress. If Mullenweg thinks you’re not giving back enough, then free software is no longer free. Rather than a specific term sheet and a list of meetings, I would like to better understand when this new license comes into effect. At the moment it seems like it’s only required when Mullenweg is upset with you. I wrote a bit more to this effect here: https://anderegg.ca/2024/09/28/the-hidden-wordpress-license
This has always been the case with all Open-Source products contributed by companies, due to the complexity of IP laws.
Patents are the most problematic. It's why it's important, for instance, for the OSS license to also include a patents-grant that applies to derived works as well, something that (at least in the past) companies like Microsoft and Facebook failed to provide.
Furthermore, even Open-Source foundations and non-profits have trademarks that they protect. Once upon a time, Debian had problems with patching Firefox, as Mozilla did not accept the modifications, leading to a Debian-specific rebranding:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian%E2%80%93Mozilla_tradema...
This issue is also about the free use of WordPress.org APIs. This is like expecting forks of Chromium or of Android to have continued (free) use of Google Play. Obviously, Google Play is not really included in the OSS deal, and it is only through the continued benevolence of Google that alternatives still have access to it.
Patents are the most problematic. It's why it's important, for instance, for the OSS license to also include a patents-grant that applies to derived works as well, something that (at least in the past) companies like Microsoft and Facebook failed to provide.
Furthermore, even Open-Source foundations and non-profits have trademarks that they protect. Once upon a time, Debian had problems with patching Firefox, as Mozilla did not accept the modifications, leading to a Debian-specific rebranding:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian%E2%80%93Mozilla_tradema...
This issue is also about the free use of WordPress.org APIs. This is like expecting forks of Chromium or of Android to have continued (free) use of Google Play. Obviously, Google Play is not really included in the OSS deal, and it is only through the continued benevolence of Google that alternatives still have access to it.
I've used Wordpress since 2006, when, in need of a dynamic website, and not knowing any programming language, I managed to build my own custom WP theme within a couple of weeks. WP's ease of use has always been its main asset. I've built dozens of professional custom themes for paying clients for the best part of a decade.
However, two aspects of WP that were always pain points were: local development and hosting. That's where WP Engine provided solutions.
While being more expensive than other platforms, hosting a WP website with them is a great experience, whether in terms of installing, managing, or reliability.
And recently, I had to update an old WP instance for a client. Having no local install available, I looked into new tools to setup one. Turns out WP Engine's tool called "Local" is what Automattic should have provided 10 years ago. It's a fantastic piece of software that "just works"!
It seems like Automattic feels jealous that another company managed to build upon their own open source product to provide a better experience in every aspect (development, managing, hosting) and are making bank. Good for WP Engine.
However, two aspects of WP that were always pain points were: local development and hosting. That's where WP Engine provided solutions.
While being more expensive than other platforms, hosting a WP website with them is a great experience, whether in terms of installing, managing, or reliability.
And recently, I had to update an old WP instance for a client. Having no local install available, I looked into new tools to setup one. Turns out WP Engine's tool called "Local" is what Automattic should have provided 10 years ago. It's a fantastic piece of software that "just works"!
It seems like Automattic feels jealous that another company managed to build upon their own open source product to provide a better experience in every aspect (development, managing, hosting) and are making bank. Good for WP Engine.
This was launched in April 2024, not even 6 months ago. LocalWP was launched in 2017. So Automattic launched a similar tool to their competitor 7 years later?
You're just proving my point mate.
You're just proving my point mate.
It sure is wild to watch Wordpress burn it's entire reputation to the ground over this
A non-profit organization partners with a for-profit company to demand payment from the for-profit's competitor, straight into the for-profit's pocket (assuming the WP Foundation has total control over wordpress.org).
That's a really bad look, WordPress Foundation.
That's a really bad look, WordPress Foundation.
> non-profit organization partners with a for-profit company
I mean, "partners" in the sense of "The same person runs both"
I mean, "partners" in the sense of "The same person runs both"
I don’t understand why Automattic is involved at all. I imagined this was between Wordpress dot org and WP engine or whatever. Nobody should ever have to pay automattic a dime. I came into this conversation fully in support of Wordpress dot org but the more I read into this the more it feels like I didn’t understand the situation between automattic and Wordpress dot org at all.
I’m leaving the conversation thinking the relation between automattic and Wordpress dot org is one of tax avoidance. What am I missing?
I’m leaving the conversation thinking the relation between automattic and Wordpress dot org is one of tax avoidance. What am I missing?
WordPress dot org is basically fully funded and operated by Automattic. It seems that by default a WordPress installation will use WordPress dot org for many features and capabilities. WP Engine leaves this enabled on their hosted sites, so each WP Engine customer is effectively getting free access to an Automattic funded resource. Automattic wants to get paid back for this use, either in money or developer resources.
Automattic's desire seems totally reasonable. Their execution of expressing that desire seems to be totally unreasonable.
Automattic's desire seems totally reasonable. Their execution of expressing that desire seems to be totally unreasonable.
Except there is a "Donate" link in the wordpress.org footer, which leads to The WordPress Foundation's donation page. On that page, it states: [0]
> The WordPress Foundation is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization...
I don’t find it reasonable for a non-profit organization to demand payment from users to one of its donors, Automattic, instead of encouraging donations to itself.
[0]: https://wordpressfoundation.org/donate/
> The WordPress Foundation is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization...
I don’t find it reasonable for a non-profit organization to demand payment from users to one of its donors, Automattic, instead of encouraging donations to itself.
[0]: https://wordpressfoundation.org/donate/
Exactly. If Wordpress dot org demanded that companies that use foundation server resources pay the foundation, I’d be ok with that. Why is automattic involved in this conversation?
I generally assume other people are smarter than more competent than I am, especially successful people like Matt. That’s why I asked the question. There has to be more to the story, right?
Is it as simple as Matt didn’t even talk to a lawyer before doing all of this for whatever reason?
I generally assume other people are smarter than more competent than I am, especially successful people like Matt. That’s why I asked the question. There has to be more to the story, right?
Is it as simple as Matt didn’t even talk to a lawyer before doing all of this for whatever reason?
The terms seem oppressive in nature and not designed to actually be agreed to.
If I wanted to say “I made them an offer” but wanted to be sure they wouldn’t take me up on the offer, this is the sort of term sheet I’d use.
If I wanted to say “I made them an offer” but wanted to be sure they wouldn’t take me up on the offer, this is the sort of term sheet I’d use.
Some of these posts and the logic used look like a mental health issue than a negotiation.
From C&D document , Matt sounds like a bully to me
This thread went from #1 to buried.
It had more comments than upvote-points, HN automatically buries high comment to point ratio threads to avoid incitement. Not sure if that applies here, just throwing that out as a possible explanation.
The thought did cross my mind that, given the focus it has had on HN over the past few days, there may be a concerted effort to try and bury things like this where the sentiment is overwhelmingly against WP/MM/Automattic. Tinfoil hat territory I know, but this really did drop like a stone. It's really the only time in all my years on HN I was genuinely surprised to not find the post 'where I left it' on the front page after a few minutes away.
My post from yesterday, also buried quickly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41712617
I’ve been fascinated by this WordPress story, but HN seems to really dislike it. I’m assuming mods are pushing posts like this down, but I’m not sure what rule/norm they're breaking?
It could be user flags too:
>Although submissions cannot be downvoted, flags act as a "super" downvote and enough flags will strongly reduce the rank of the submission, or kill it entirely (flagging is supposed to be used for submissions which break the site guidelines, but that isn't always the case in practice).
https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented
>Although submissions cannot be downvoted, flags act as a "super" downvote and enough flags will strongly reduce the rank of the submission, or kill it entirely (flagging is supposed to be used for submissions which break the site guidelines, but that isn't always the case in practice).
https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented
Do they think this makes them look good?
Right or wrong, they just keep digging that hole.
Automattic is cooking from that Unity cookbook
What is a good alternative to WordPress? I don't want a headless CMS, I want a CMS I can log into and edit pages & CPTs. Ideally using a pagebuilder like Bricks. I don't want to ever have to open a code editor. Is there a good alternative?
All this drama is just convincing me to never want to use WordPress.
Deciding after the fact you want 8% of another company’s revenue seems extortionate.
"Extortion" does feel like the appropriate word to use in this case, I say only partly in jest - there's certainly been coercion or threats, having seen Matt's messages to WP Engine before his conference appearance.
Automattic and Mullenweg continue to surprise me at seemingly every turn. I also find some of the language being used ostensibly BY Automattic in these blog posts just incredible, coming from what is supposed to be a respected and respectable organisation. I'm seriously considering whether to ever use WordPress again for projects.
Automattic and Mullenweg continue to surprise me at seemingly every turn. I also find some of the language being used ostensibly BY Automattic in these blog posts just incredible, coming from what is supposed to be a respected and respectable organisation. I'm seriously considering whether to ever use WordPress again for projects.
Do you know any good alternative? I'm searching myself.
I can only repeat what I said the other day. This is all a huge pile of bullshit.
Automattic does not like the competition, so they pick one actor in the WP ecosystem _randomly_ and try to force this on to them.
For anybody who is running a service that uses WP this is a threat. You can't be sure that if you build on that ecosystem that one day Matt Mullenweg does not like you and will try to extort money from you, too.
Automattic does not like the competition, so they pick one actor in the WP ecosystem _randomly_ and try to force this on to them.
For anybody who is running a service that uses WP this is a threat. You can't be sure that if you build on that ecosystem that one day Matt Mullenweg does not like you and will try to extort money from you, too.
Matt is a “little” of his rocker
>That is not true. Automattic asked for a verbal agreement that WP Engine would give some percentage of their revenue back into WordPress, either in the form of a trademark agreement or employee hours spent on core WordPress.
Tomato-Tomato. Comedy gold.