Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient(nature.com)
nature.com
Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-01026-x
146 comments
South America was pretty advanced. The oldest evidence we have of widespread metallurgy comes from the tip of South America around approximately 5000 BC. Which predates metallurgy in Eurasia by thousands of years. Copper smelting was particularly important
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Am...
On the ecological side, some anthropologists argued that humans actually played a major role in transitioning Amazonia from mostly grasslands to the rainforest it is today around 10,000 years ago.
The distribution of many plant species is inexplicable without looking at human settlement patterns. So much so that other anthropologists have called the Amazon a "manufactured landscape".
https://sci-hub.ru/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Am...
On the ecological side, some anthropologists argued that humans actually played a major role in transitioning Amazonia from mostly grasslands to the rainforest it is today around 10,000 years ago.
The distribution of many plant species is inexplicable without looking at human settlement patterns. So much so that other anthropologists have called the Amazon a "manufactured landscape".
https://sci-hub.ru/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007...
you can also say the Saharan desert played a major role on turning what Amazon is...
now, wow, calling it a grassland before humans 10,000 years ago is to smoke too much pot before reading/making papers. 5,000,000 AD then yes, maybe... /s but Terra Preta and other indigenous interferences is not even 10% of Amazon territory. various other animals are responsible for spreading diversity be it by shitting seed or just moking stuff around to make nests or impress some partner. the rainforest are also there because mountains changing courses of rivers.
[0] "Geology and geodiversity of the Amazon: Three billion years of history" https://www.theamazonwewant.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C...
[1] the grassland hypothesis (somewhere in the text) and other curiosities about its biodiversity https://www.science.org/content/article/feature-how-amazon-b...
now, wow, calling it a grassland before humans 10,000 years ago is to smoke too much pot before reading/making papers. 5,000,000 AD then yes, maybe... /s but Terra Preta and other indigenous interferences is not even 10% of Amazon territory. various other animals are responsible for spreading diversity be it by shitting seed or just moking stuff around to make nests or impress some partner. the rainforest are also there because mountains changing courses of rivers.
[0] "Geology and geodiversity of the Amazon: Three billion years of history" https://www.theamazonwewant.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C...
[1] the grassland hypothesis (somewhere in the text) and other curiosities about its biodiversity https://www.science.org/content/article/feature-how-amazon-b...
This is common knowledge. Even the Wikipedia page states:
> There is evidence that there have been significant changes in the Amazon rainforest vegetation over the last 21,000 years through the last glacial maximum (LGM) and subsequent deglaciation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest
Also, there's this:
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/10-800-years-a...
> There is evidence that there have been significant changes in the Amazon rainforest vegetation over the last 21,000 years through the last glacial maximum (LGM) and subsequent deglaciation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_rainforest
Also, there's this:
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/10-800-years-a...
the Wiki citation doesn't even have a source, nor is calling that indigenous people made it
your last link is about Llanos de Moxos, which isn't in Amazon. you don't seen to understand even basic geography... even if Llanos was 100% man-made (and isn't) and it was part of the Amazon (and not a region that borders it) it would be the equivalent of 2.6% of the whole Amazon area. concluding such a thing because 3% of an area that benefited (soil quality wise) from billions of years of geologic events and was partly modified by humans is ignorant but again, Llanos isn't even Amazon
it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me
your last link is about Llanos de Moxos, which isn't in Amazon. you don't seen to understand even basic geography... even if Llanos was 100% man-made (and isn't) and it was part of the Amazon (and not a region that borders it) it would be the equivalent of 2.6% of the whole Amazon area. concluding such a thing because 3% of an area that benefited (soil quality wise) from billions of years of geologic events and was partly modified by humans is ignorant but again, Llanos isn't even Amazon
it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me
>it was common knowledge among middle age that Earth was flat. doesn't seem an argument to me
And you don't seem to know basic history, casting doubt on other things you say. Nobody serious in the middle ages (or since much further back than that either) thought seriously that the Earth was flat.
And you don't seem to know basic history, casting doubt on other things you say. Nobody serious in the middle ages (or since much further back than that either) thought seriously that the Earth was flat.
actually i meant "geocentrism" but it was too late to edit but you are right, middle age didn't thought Earth was flat
now if you are defending this absurd commentary that Amazonia was a grassland 10,000 years ago and turned out to be what's because humans, i think you both are on the level of flat earth 21° century people
now if you are defending this absurd commentary that Amazonia was a grassland 10,000 years ago and turned out to be what's because humans, i think you both are on the level of flat earth 21° century people
No, not defending that, since evidence points to it having been a forest, but that a place like the Amazon could form from grassland in the span of a few thousand years is absolutely possible.
the western part once turned into a huge wetland, after the Andes emerged from the ocean. that was more than 10 Ma ago although. that was also what made the western Amazonia part differ on its biodivesity
humans may altered the biodiversity of Amazonia by breeding only wanted species. but we don't have too much evidence of that (yet). but if it was, the biodiversity of pre-humans was probably richer, as indigenous apparently managed the forests with fire and farmed hyperdominant cultures [0]
[0] https://portal.amelica.org/ameli/journal/181/1813954027/html...
humans may altered the biodiversity of Amazonia by breeding only wanted species. but we don't have too much evidence of that (yet). but if it was, the biodiversity of pre-humans was probably richer, as indigenous apparently managed the forests with fire and farmed hyperdominant cultures [0]
[0] https://portal.amelica.org/ameli/journal/181/1813954027/html...
There were elephants there that humans hunted to extinction, elephants typically keep forests down and create grasslands. So it seems likely it happened, and that humans was the cause (by killing the elephants).
Edit: So it is likely that the change happened and had nothing to do with the soil change.
Edit: So it is likely that the change happened and had nothing to do with the soil change.
Depends, there’s elephants in the Congo forest, they’re just not too easy to see.
The trees grow faster than the elephants can wreck them. But in areas with less rain fall elephants keep the grasslands more open.
As did Mammoths in the northern forests.
The trees grow faster than the elephants can wreck them. But in areas with less rain fall elephants keep the grasslands more open.
As did Mammoths in the northern forests.
I never said Amazonian grasslands was manmade. Reread your own comment to understand the context
The Wikipedia source was to back up the claim that Amazonia was largely grasslands about 10-20k years ago. That is what is common knowledge.
The Wikipedia source was to back up the claim that Amazonia was largely grasslands about 10-20k years ago. That is what is common knowledge.
> The oldest evidence we have of widespread metallurgy comes from the tip of South America around approximately 5000 BC. Which predates metallurgy in Eurasia by thousands of years.
There are archaeological finds in Europe dating smelting in the region back as early as 5500 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pločnik_(archaeological_site)
There are archaeological finds in Europe dating smelting in the region back as early as 5500 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pločnik_(archaeological_site)
Yes but I said "widespread" metallurgy. There are evidence of metallurgy that is even older than 5000 BC in South America but it's not widespread enough for me to point it out. We even have evidence of copper processing 10,000BC in the Near East but I also didn't think that was worth pointing out
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170901113607.h...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170901113607.h...
Have we not gone all in on soil? Your CPU and GPU comes from the soil. The electrical batteries powering all your electronic device comes from the soil. Take a hard look around you, almost everything "artificial" you can see and touch came from the ground.
Lots of things come from the earth for sure, but I think soil is worth distinguishing from the sources of silicon wafers and lithium batteries.
Soil is a living, breathing, hospitable community of earth, fungi, insects, water, and countless other organisms. You can’t make silicon wafers from it, but it’s the cornerstone of entire ecosystems. It might be one of the most precious yet overlooked natural resources
Soil is a living, breathing, hospitable community of earth, fungi, insects, water, and countless other organisms. You can’t make silicon wafers from it, but it’s the cornerstone of entire ecosystems. It might be one of the most precious yet overlooked natural resources
>> Terra Preta - literally "black soil"
Terra Preta is noble savage fiction [1] created because charcoal stains the soil quite deep. (Similar to how the OP 'spotlight' is mostly fiction)
Biochar enthusiasts show the staining in soil cutouts after a few years.
I do a lot of biochar (100+ liters a week) but it has mixed results in the scientific journals, meta studies don't show a lot of improvement.
[1] The Amazonian cutting down of forests and burning it for quick release of nutrients works, but unless a third of your babies die you will run out of forest.
Terra Preta is noble savage fiction [1] created because charcoal stains the soil quite deep. (Similar to how the OP 'spotlight' is mostly fiction)
Biochar enthusiasts show the staining in soil cutouts after a few years.
I do a lot of biochar (100+ liters a week) but it has mixed results in the scientific journals, meta studies don't show a lot of improvement.
[1] The Amazonian cutting down of forests and burning it for quick release of nutrients works, but unless a third of your babies die you will run out of forest.
There is a lot of research showing that terra preta works and that Amazonion tribes create it.
Biochar is just the first step in making Terra preta so it's not a surprise that it doesn't work as well as the final product.
Biochar is just the first step in making Terra preta so it's not a surprise that it doesn't work as well as the final product.
why are almost all your comments "dead"? weird
I don't know about the "hidden ingredient", but...
When I lived in upstate NY our house was on property that had been a glacial lakebed. The soil was a bit sandy, if anything too well drained, but adding lots of leaf mold -- we had more than enough maple trees -- made it retain water adequately, and things grew well.
When it came time to move, we sold the house to a pair of doctors who were moving up from Texas. One of them was just so enthusiastic about how good the soil was, and about the big piles of partially decomposed leaves we had, compared to the terrible clay soil they had down there. So if nothing else, good soil can help property values.
When I lived in upstate NY our house was on property that had been a glacial lakebed. The soil was a bit sandy, if anything too well drained, but adding lots of leaf mold -- we had more than enough maple trees -- made it retain water adequately, and things grew well.
When it came time to move, we sold the house to a pair of doctors who were moving up from Texas. One of them was just so enthusiastic about how good the soil was, and about the big piles of partially decomposed leaves we had, compared to the terrible clay soil they had down there. So if nothing else, good soil can help property values.
I started my gardening adventure with vegetables in pots. It was perfect, plants gave amazing yield, but required too detailed care and attention every day (or sometimes 2-3 times a day in a hot dry summer day). When I have moved to planting in soil I was shocked how worse the plants are doing. Same tomatoes giving 10-15 kg per plant yield in pots were under 3kg in soil. They got more disease issues, more pests (slugs and snails!).
After talking to fellow natural hobby farmers I realized the soil quality was garbage (lack of earth worms and insects), and there were severe drainage and water holding issues: weirdly the soil didn't hold water but it drained way too slow too. So, ehen it rained it was swamped for days but when it got dry none of that water stayed at the top 1 meters of the soil. I'm lucky to find amazing help from local natural farmers, so I got natural green compost (no animal products/byproducts). I have been introduced to no-dig farming too. So first year I started by applying 20cm thick compost on top soil, after putting a layer of old paper boxes against weeds. Then planted my seedlings on these, with worm poop and for some phosphate loving plants bat guano as fertilizers around the plants, topping of with hemp mulch and cacao shell mulch as topping. When this soil has sunken enough, topped off with 2-3 cm compost and mulched again. I have sprinkled insect friendly flowers to attract insects too. This was an amazing succes with not only plants flourishing, fighting diseases much better and resulting in an amazing yield. I didn't need to water as often as before (4x less frequent than before in the soil, 8x less frequent than in the pot). After year 3 I stopped all fertilization and introduced cover crops that could be used as mulch and fertilizer at the same time.
This process though is not linear. I still have plants which are not successful at all. I can grow juicy tasty watermelons in a northern European country but no parsnips or carrots or cauliflowers yet. This is what I love though, I'm interacting with a living microbiome rather than executing lab experiments. Failures are keeping it interesting and improving learning.
After talking to fellow natural hobby farmers I realized the soil quality was garbage (lack of earth worms and insects), and there were severe drainage and water holding issues: weirdly the soil didn't hold water but it drained way too slow too. So, ehen it rained it was swamped for days but when it got dry none of that water stayed at the top 1 meters of the soil. I'm lucky to find amazing help from local natural farmers, so I got natural green compost (no animal products/byproducts). I have been introduced to no-dig farming too. So first year I started by applying 20cm thick compost on top soil, after putting a layer of old paper boxes against weeds. Then planted my seedlings on these, with worm poop and for some phosphate loving plants bat guano as fertilizers around the plants, topping of with hemp mulch and cacao shell mulch as topping. When this soil has sunken enough, topped off with 2-3 cm compost and mulched again. I have sprinkled insect friendly flowers to attract insects too. This was an amazing succes with not only plants flourishing, fighting diseases much better and resulting in an amazing yield. I didn't need to water as often as before (4x less frequent than before in the soil, 8x less frequent than in the pot). After year 3 I stopped all fertilization and introduced cover crops that could be used as mulch and fertilizer at the same time.
This process though is not linear. I still have plants which are not successful at all. I can grow juicy tasty watermelons in a northern European country but no parsnips or carrots or cauliflowers yet. This is what I love though, I'm interacting with a living microbiome rather than executing lab experiments. Failures are keeping it interesting and improving learning.
I had the opposite experience. I had rented a house that had an empty patch of dirt and asked the landlord if we could plant some vegetables there (which I didn't have a lot of experience in). My older neighbor saw me and said that we had great soil in our neighborhood but I didn't really think about it. The vegetables grew amazingly well, we had way too many tomatoes and tons of broccoli that kept growing back and more. I barely took any care with it after planting, other than very sporadic watering and harvesting.
The next year we moved from that house to a new place, where we couldn't plant directly in the ground but the landlord was happy for us to use pots and planters. I eagerly planted my broccoli again thinking we'd have the same endless supply... but this time it barely produced anything and looked nothing like the last year. I bought some kind of soil bags from the gardening store after asking an employee which would be good for vegetable pots and planters. Something about the pots or the soil or otherwise made a gigantic difference even though we had moved probably less than a mile distance wise.
I'm a very amateur gardener so I may have made some other mistakes, but I think I treated the plants very similarly both years.
The next year we moved from that house to a new place, where we couldn't plant directly in the ground but the landlord was happy for us to use pots and planters. I eagerly planted my broccoli again thinking we'd have the same endless supply... but this time it barely produced anything and looked nothing like the last year. I bought some kind of soil bags from the gardening store after asking an employee which would be good for vegetable pots and planters. Something about the pots or the soil or otherwise made a gigantic difference even though we had moved probably less than a mile distance wise.
I'm a very amateur gardener so I may have made some other mistakes, but I think I treated the plants very similarly both years.
This makes sense as pots require very high precision of soil composition and water management. You need good drainage but a water reservoir under the pots with some kind of wick to keep it watering from the bottom. Also the size of the pot you need is huge compared to your intuition. A single tomato plant requires more than 100L of soil, 30% of which should be perlite, you need some pebbles for better drainage mixed in, and more than 50% should be compost. This often isn't enough for a tomato, so you need to add slow release fertilizers at different levels of soil. In a warm day (> 30C) you need to give 5L of water in the morning and in the evening. The water should stay in the pot but not flood it. Ah, also, they cannot handle cold as good as in soil either. So the pots should be moved indoors when it's too cold, and require shielding from a lot of wind.
If you prepare the pot, soil etc properly, you can get good results. It's very repeatable as it's a very precise recipe. If you put potting soil in a pot randomly it won't work at all.
If you prepare the pot, soil etc properly, you can get good results. It's very repeatable as it's a very precise recipe. If you put potting soil in a pot randomly it won't work at all.
I've had tomatoes grown successfully, with decent yield in pots that take maybe 30L of soil, and without any perlite. It isn't that hard if we're talking about hobbyist stuff, where results don't have to be ideal but just "good enough". Picking a variety that is hardy and forgiving, and a place with enough warmth and sunlight (at least in the North) is the most important part.
True. What I went for was extremely good yield, like 10-15kg per plant. That requires a lot of foilsge growth early on and proper pruning + a lot of water later on. Just good enough isn't that hard, though still the depth of yhe pot should be enough for root development.
A properly selected variety adapted to your climate needs both less soil, less water and and a lot less maintenance (still daily care but nothing crazy).
Yes, variety matters a lot. I've managed to grow tomatoes quite well in pots located outside in Northern European climate, simply by picking a traditional variety that is known to be easy to grow. (In Germany it's known as "Bonner Beste" if anyone is interested). It doesn't even require that much upkeep.
From what I know, first year after a lomg pause is always amazing. Farmers are paid to let the soil rest 1 year.
every region has different soil
What you explain sounds similar to just having a high clay content. Water doesn’t soak in well. Not all earth is good soil to begin with is the lesson, you need to know what your starting with and amend. Unless you’re using potting mix in a pot, this is usually engineered to be excellent by professionals and explains the success
High clay can by itself be quite problematic, especially reclaimed soil from sea and river deltas (so called polders) here in the Netherlands. These lands are very dense clay to begin with, rich with nutrients but not great for root growth and holding water. Sand is added for the former, and groubd water level is managed to max 1m underground for the latter. Nowadays with long stretches of dry weather (> 2 weeks no rain) this is becoming a huge problem as traditionally the issue always was drainage, ie getting rid of the water as fast as possible.
There's an interesting read about a polder in English here, especially the mechanical soil improvement section is worthwhile: https://www.canonnoordoostpolder.nl/en/land/cultivation
There's an interesting read about a polder in English here, especially the mechanical soil improvement section is worthwhile: https://www.canonnoordoostpolder.nl/en/land/cultivation
Interesting that you mentioned compost without animal products, then bat guano. Isn't guano harvesting fairly unsustainable and damaging to bat colonies?
True. I wasn't really avoiding animal products but the idea was to not flood the soil with nitrogen. Bat guano is indeed bot great, which I stopped using after learning. Great thing about ot is thomoug high potassium and phosphate. This was necessary for my watermelons.
I've read that pigeon guano is also great. I didn't do any research on its environmental impact though, as I don't need it at the moment.
I've read that pigeon guano is also great. I didn't do any research on its environmental impact though, as I don't need it at the moment.
When you say that you put a layer of old paper boxes against weeds, does that mean you put the broken down boxes first, and the put the compost on the top? If so, were the seedlings able to sink their roots through the paper boxes and go deeper into the ground?
Also, what cover crops did you introduce?
Also, what cover crops did you introduce?
I just put them dry, not broken, and overlapping between the boxes such that they cover the surface fully. And yes, the roots can go down, but weeds cannot go past that easily. The theory is yhe upwards growth is weak but downwards growth of the roots are much stronger and they can puncture a wet paper box.
Cover crops: clover, buckwheat and winter rye. Cut before seeding and lay them flat over the surface.
Cover crops: clover, buckwheat and winter rye. Cut before seeding and lay them flat over the surface.
Just to clear up what sounds like a simple misunderstanding, because you mentioned being in Europe: in the US (can’t speak for other English speaking countries) to “break down” box is to flatten it, not break it like to destroy or tear apart. As in “help me break down these boxes for recycling”.
Forgive me if you got that, it just sounded like you were talking past each other.
Forgive me if you got that, it just sounded like you were talking past each other.
Oh I totally misunderstood that. Thanks for the clarification.
I could see this being the reason your carrots didn't grow well though. If the carrots tap root struggles a bit through the cardboard it could mess up devlopment. I think this is why they say not to transplant carrots. The tap root bottoms out quickly and struggles to recover.
Oh carrots were in a deep compost bed (40cm) first. They only grew like 2cm long roots, nowhere near the box.
We use a Lomi to convert our organic waste into compost I can add to my worm farm
and then from the worm farm, mix with outdoor soil and grow in that. A automated a flood and drain system with our fish and cultivate nitrogen fixing bacteria with that, and water the plants with this water every couple of days.
Using these two approaches I have not had to buy any nutrients in years and our soil is doing well.
https://lomi.com/?srsltid=AfmBOor2uvg1DJ2J1E6rXh-8L3iAqzeSD0...
and then from the worm farm, mix with outdoor soil and grow in that. A automated a flood and drain system with our fish and cultivate nitrogen fixing bacteria with that, and water the plants with this water every couple of days.
Using these two approaches I have not had to buy any nutrients in years and our soil is doing well.
https://lomi.com/?srsltid=AfmBOor2uvg1DJ2J1E6rXh-8L3iAqzeSD0...
Why get an electric powered gadget made of plastic and proprietary soft/hardware that will 100% for sure end in a dump in less than 20 years when all you need is a good ol compost bin?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZG-kzlhPY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZG-kzlhPY
Lomi doesn't really "compost" your scraps, it dehydrates and grinds them. The actual compost activity happens (on an accelerated timeline, due to the pre-processing) in the soil you amend with your Lomi "compost." It's good marketing though
Space is the main reason. We live in the city and the amount of organic waste we (family of 4 + numerous pets) produce is staggering. additionally meat attracts animals. This I run an overnight cycle and I can add it to my compost heap and let it degrade more and no issues with rodents and other animals who dig through food waste. after using this device, in the future I would always grind/break up my organic waste as fine as possible just to save space.
I was originally pretty skeptical of the Lomi as well after seeing this very same video. But my friend got us one and we have been using it for a while now. Sure, it has the same parts as a breadmaker, and it's mostly just drying out and cutting down the organic material into more useful sizes, exactly like he says, but when you put in the enzymes and have it run its dirt cycle it does actually produce meaningfully good compost all with much lower footprint a garden composting setup. I'm not sure I'd pay to buy one new, but but it's not a scam.
Just remember that any positive effect you might achieve by a lifetime of composting is grossly negated by the production, usage, and inevitable way to the landfill of this thing. Startups like these are part of the problem, not the solution.
That could be true, but maybe OP's goal isn't making a positive impact on the global scale.
Just throw your scrapes and buy compost then, it'll be cheaper and easier. The city already transforms bio waste in gas and compost anyways, and much more efficiently than what you can do at home given the scale.
This is another "I'm doing my part" gimmick that solves literally nothing when you look under the hood
This is another "I'm doing my part" gimmick that solves literally nothing when you look under the hood
You're not wrong. I think people just like to feel like they're doing their part, even if it's not actually a net benefit.
our city has no bio waste. we make all our own dried fruit, eat mostly fresh from market (so little to no plastic for our veggies), but an immense amount of organic waste.
Only if you're using bad math and discounting the impact of the retail compost and fertilizer offset by these devices.
These devices reach impact parity in a few years (2 to 10 depending on the electronics and how much they're used).
These devices reach impact parity in a few years (2 to 10 depending on the electronics and how much they're used).
it allows us to get all our organic and bio plastic waste for a big family with pets, including most bones once we have cooked stock from it, in a compost heap in the city.
we tried composting before and the volume of organic waste we produced was too much and we had to dispose a lot of our waste in general trash (our location has no organic waste disposal that runs in our neighborhood) meant animals ripped our curb side bags open.
I am not a degrowther to save the planet either, so a company putting compostable products in place of plastic ones seems like good economic activity.
we tried composting before and the volume of organic waste we produced was too much and we had to dispose a lot of our waste in general trash (our location has no organic waste disposal that runs in our neighborhood) meant animals ripped our curb side bags open.
I am not a degrowther to save the planet either, so a company putting compostable products in place of plastic ones seems like good economic activity.
That was a great read. This is what I hope to achieve too. I know what you mean about some crops that won’t grow at all, for me, it’s carrots. They are never more than a couple of centimetres long. Deeply frustrating. I’ve tried lots, including making the soil loose, making it compact, adding sand, etc.
Also Aloe Vera, absolutely the most frustrating house plants I’ve ever had.
Also Aloe Vera, absolutely the most frustrating house plants I’ve ever had.
Glad you found it interesting!
It goes so quick with enough care, it's so fascinating. It's impossible to find any place without a lot of worms now.
I have the same issue with carrots. Parsnips are so much more harder though, they just don't grow any root at all!
It goes so quick with enough care, it's so fascinating. It's impossible to find any place without a lot of worms now.
I have the same issue with carrots. Parsnips are so much more harder though, they just don't grow any root at all!
Why do you find Aloe Vera frustrating? I mean, it grows quickly and requires very little maintenance. I suppose that could be seen as "frustrating" in the sense that it needs to be divided or thinned out regularly.
Typical problem with aloe is overwatering. And modern potting soil often is loaded with sphagnum, which stays wet too long, and then when it dries it becomes hydrophobic so watering the plant doesn’t wet the entire soil.
I agree. I do not water them and they grow crazy!
Only water when the feeling of guilt at not watering them is overwhelming.
Pretty much. :)
I water weekly, and even in the winter leave for 4 months!
I overwater before going, and when I come back sone of it is mildly brown. A week later with water replenishment, it's almost all green again.
Makes sense for a desert plant.
I overwater before going, and when I come back sone of it is mildly brown. A week later with water replenishment, it's almost all green again.
Makes sense for a desert plant.
> project to assess soil erosion and degradation in vineyards using geographical mapping systems and artificial intelligence (AI). ... AI helps me to design and polish the software codes that I use
Is this describing use of something like GitHub copilot?
Is this describing use of something like GitHub copilot?
Sometimes I get the feeling you gotta tie your research to AI in some tenuous fashion to get research funding.
It’s not a feeling. Getting grants requires following whatever hype trend is popular at the moment.
Savvy academics know this and respond accordingly. Whether it’s AI (now) or DEI stuff (until recently), they add the required little sections and play the game.
Savvy academics know this and respond accordingly. Whether it’s AI (now) or DEI stuff (until recently), they add the required little sections and play the game.
I bet AI is really good at writing grant proposals with all the right buzz words.
It's so good that some grant applications are switching to short video submissions.
Ground up rock dust can be surprisingly effective to restore soil fertility: https://www.remineralize.org/
In general: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rock+dust+soil+amendment
In general: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rock+dust+soil+amendment
Yes! I was surprised when my local garden shop didn't have any. I used rock dust and bloodmeal along with compost to amend the lawn a few years ago and now have a wildly growing wildflower and perennial garden. I also use it when planting in new plants to mix in the loose soil at the bottom of the hole.
Odd that an article on healthy soil completely ignores the major health risk from growing food in regions with a long history of industry and mining, eg most of Europe, northeastern USA, etc. - Heavy metal contamination with species like lead, mercury, cadmium etc. There's a huge literature on the subject, but real-world monitoring is pretty light, certainly doesn't look standard:
>"Freslyn Mae, Camata, and Ryna Mae, Capurcos, and Eula Marie, Delino, and Gecelene, Estorico, (2025) Assessing the Sources and Risks of Heavy Metals in Agricultural Soils: A Comprehensive Review. International Journal of Innovative Science and Research Technology"
https://eprint.ijisrt.org/id/eprint/324/
>"Freslyn Mae, Camata, and Ryna Mae, Capurcos, and Eula Marie, Delino, and Gecelene, Estorico, (2025) Assessing the Sources and Risks of Heavy Metals in Agricultural Soils: A Comprehensive Review. International Journal of Innovative Science and Research Technology"
https://eprint.ijisrt.org/id/eprint/324/
We’ve gone through rounds of working out if the leafy vegetables absorb the heavy metals or if it’s mostly in the dust and last I read we’re back to the latter.
White vinegar is better at cleaning vegetables than so called vegetable soaps, and more importantly the acid dissolves soot and heavy metals.
Gallon bottles of white vinegar are cheap. It’s also good for laundry especially if you have hard water, or a humid climate. Some people put it in the rinse cycle for their dishwasher as well, instead of rinse aid which is hell on your intestines.
White vinegar is better at cleaning vegetables than so called vegetable soaps, and more importantly the acid dissolves soot and heavy metals.
Gallon bottles of white vinegar are cheap. It’s also good for laundry especially if you have hard water, or a humid climate. Some people put it in the rinse cycle for their dishwasher as well, instead of rinse aid which is hell on your intestines.
> We’ve gone through rounds of working out if the leafy vegetables absorb the heavy metals or if it’s mostly in the dust and last I read we’re back to the latter.
It depends. For leafy vegetables it makes sense that dust > soil. However we find more lead and antimony in corn grown in proximity to highways.. this is clearly from road runoff taken up by the plant through the soil . We also find arsenic in brown rice and other crops again taken up through the soil because these soils are heavily contaminated from past arsenic-bearing pesticide use
But, dust/ topicals also matter. There is a reason fruits with thick skins like avocados, pineapple, melon, kiwi, always find themselves on the "Clean 15" list every year- because they are testing the flesh of the fruit, which is protected from topical pesticides by the skins. But I eat the kiwi skins sometimes...or make tea with the pineapple rinds... which people usually don't... and am guessing that they are a lot worse than the flesh.
It depends. For leafy vegetables it makes sense that dust > soil. However we find more lead and antimony in corn grown in proximity to highways.. this is clearly from road runoff taken up by the plant through the soil . We also find arsenic in brown rice and other crops again taken up through the soil because these soils are heavily contaminated from past arsenic-bearing pesticide use
But, dust/ topicals also matter. There is a reason fruits with thick skins like avocados, pineapple, melon, kiwi, always find themselves on the "Clean 15" list every year- because they are testing the flesh of the fruit, which is protected from topical pesticides by the skins. But I eat the kiwi skins sometimes...or make tea with the pineapple rinds... which people usually don't... and am guessing that they are a lot worse than the flesh.
Also read you can remove around 60% of the arsenic in rice by washing it before cooking, which you’re supposed to do anyway. (But I no longer save the water for things like putting into the compost pile).
Most soil here is good but I've recently conquered two different areas of very poor soil. One was a clay apparently trucked in with adjacent civil works decades ago that repels water and lies under significant shade in which almost anything I planted died, and one was depleted sand that drained instantly, held no water, and was full of construction rubbish.
For the former, which was the hardest, I just kept changing up species until I found some things that would grow. When I tried a new species, I would always add some mulch or soil for enhancement. I now have perhaps 15 feature trees established to various stages and have been able to expand by mulching a more fertile area at the base of the plants in which I have started to place other plants.
For the latter, I turned the earth and removed the majority of waste, mulched the whole thing lightly, wet it down regularly, transplanted some large shade trees (which survived but basically didn't grow for about a year), then began a combined campaign of continuous stick and branch mulching and food waste (surface composting). Even though much of the ground became covered in a weed, which I removed recently, the soil is now dark, rich, and highly nutrient dense, holds moisture, and contains significant planted trees, a forest of emergent palms, and self-sprouted fruit trees and vines. The transformation took around 2 years.
I do still have three challenge areas: two small beds where the soil is depleted and gets far too much sun, and one where the soil is depleted and gets almost no water. All now have plants growing, but only one could be described as thriving.
For the former, which was the hardest, I just kept changing up species until I found some things that would grow. When I tried a new species, I would always add some mulch or soil for enhancement. I now have perhaps 15 feature trees established to various stages and have been able to expand by mulching a more fertile area at the base of the plants in which I have started to place other plants.
For the latter, I turned the earth and removed the majority of waste, mulched the whole thing lightly, wet it down regularly, transplanted some large shade trees (which survived but basically didn't grow for about a year), then began a combined campaign of continuous stick and branch mulching and food waste (surface composting). Even though much of the ground became covered in a weed, which I removed recently, the soil is now dark, rich, and highly nutrient dense, holds moisture, and contains significant planted trees, a forest of emergent palms, and self-sprouted fruit trees and vines. The transformation took around 2 years.
I do still have three challenge areas: two small beds where the soil is depleted and gets far too much sun, and one where the soil is depleted and gets almost no water. All now have plants growing, but only one could be described as thriving.
I'm a gardening and landscaping enjoyer, but I am constantly confused about the bordering magical thinking surrounding dirt, among other aspects of growing things.
If you look at hydroponics/aeroponics, plants basically need water, light, and fertilizer (N (nitrogen) P (phosphorous) K (potassium), and a few trace minerals). It can be the most synthetic process you've ever seen, and the plants will grow amazingly well.
The other elements regarding soil health, etc, would be much better framed in another way, rather than as directly necessary for plant health. The benefits of maintaining a nice living soil is that it makes the environment self-sustaining. You could just dump synthetic fertilizer on the plant, with some soil additives to help retain the right amount of drainage/retention, and it would do completely fine. But without constant optimal inputs, the plants would die.
If you cultivate a nice soil, such that the plants own/surrounding detritus can be broken down effectively, such that the nutrients in the natural processes can be broken down and made available to the plant, and the otherwise nonoptimal soil texture characteristics could be brought to some positive characteristics by those same processes, then you can theoretically arrive at a point that requires very few additional inputs.
If you look at hydroponics/aeroponics, plants basically need water, light, and fertilizer (N (nitrogen) P (phosphorous) K (potassium), and a few trace minerals). It can be the most synthetic process you've ever seen, and the plants will grow amazingly well.
The other elements regarding soil health, etc, would be much better framed in another way, rather than as directly necessary for plant health. The benefits of maintaining a nice living soil is that it makes the environment self-sustaining. You could just dump synthetic fertilizer on the plant, with some soil additives to help retain the right amount of drainage/retention, and it would do completely fine. But without constant optimal inputs, the plants would die.
If you cultivate a nice soil, such that the plants own/surrounding detritus can be broken down effectively, such that the nutrients in the natural processes can be broken down and made available to the plant, and the otherwise nonoptimal soil texture characteristics could be brought to some positive characteristics by those same processes, then you can theoretically arrive at a point that requires very few additional inputs.
The reason chemical fertilizers work is because they provide minerals that a plant might normally trade sugars to fungi to get. So those sugars stay in the plant making larger fruits, nuts, or legumes.
But the problem is you also get water and early/late season sugars exchanged between plants (Simard et al).
So within a generation the soil structure has collapsed, you’re at the whim of every microdrought, and you’re dealing with the Red Queen problem. But like drugs, at first it feels amazing.
> dirt
Dirt isn’t much better than hydroponics. Soil is. Conventional farming has been described by some as “hydroponics in dirt”. That’s why it’s so fertilizer dependent, just like hydro.
There are a few places in the world where there is insufficient phosphorous in the native rock to grow plants without fertilizer. But everywhere else, healthy soil fungi could mine it out of the sand in the soils. If they were left to grow instead of burned to death with herbicides and fertilizers.
But the problem is you also get water and early/late season sugars exchanged between plants (Simard et al).
So within a generation the soil structure has collapsed, you’re at the whim of every microdrought, and you’re dealing with the Red Queen problem. But like drugs, at first it feels amazing.
> dirt
Dirt isn’t much better than hydroponics. Soil is. Conventional farming has been described by some as “hydroponics in dirt”. That’s why it’s so fertilizer dependent, just like hydro.
There are a few places in the world where there is insufficient phosphorous in the native rock to grow plants without fertilizer. But everywhere else, healthy soil fungi could mine it out of the sand in the soils. If they were left to grow instead of burned to death with herbicides and fertilizers.
great post. I posted in this thread above about using a Lomi to convert our organic waste into organic fertilizer (along with a worm farm), a and cultivating nitrogin fixing bacteria with our outdoor fish pond and a flood and drain system.
Soil is great to grow in, if you treat it well.
I will say that my only problem with Simard is that she anthropomorphizes the fungi and the behaviors she documented could just as easily be explained by osmotic pressure. Chemicals in a solution of water have “fairness” built into them. The broker doesn’t need to have a strategy for exchange, just siphon off a finder’s fee for making the introductions. The magic is low friction channels that can move solutions over a long (for a single celled organism) distance. That’s magic enough for any kingdom of life.
Sugary sap? Water will enter and sugars flow out. High nitrogen content? Same same.
Sugary sap? Water will enter and sugars flow out. High nitrogen content? Same same.
Maybe it’s because I started with hydroponics. I don’t get the fascination with soil or animosity about hydroponics being unnatural. People do vastly underestimate what it takes to create a good soil mixture, though. In the end, you’re suspending nutrients in a substrate for the plants to uptake regardless of how you go about providing them.
The difference is that in soil you have microbes and fungus which seek out and break down inorganic nutrients then exchange them with plants for sugar. Plant's access to nutrients is mediated by this underground ecosystem.
In hydroponics YOU provide the work to gather and process all the nutrients and provide them to the plant roots in an optimal form. In nature, that work is done by the soil ecosystem.
In the end, the plant does not seem to really care. As long as it has the right molecules available, it's happy. Possibly moreso since it doesn't need to sacrifice any of its sugars.
In hydroponics YOU provide the work to gather and process all the nutrients and provide them to the plant roots in an optimal form. In nature, that work is done by the soil ecosystem.
In the end, the plant does not seem to really care. As long as it has the right molecules available, it's happy. Possibly moreso since it doesn't need to sacrifice any of its sugars.
Hydroponics is great at growing plants that are great at growing in hydroponics.
Generally that is short-lived annuals.
There are also enzymes and secondary metabolites relevant to plant health associated with microbiome and ecological chains in healthy soil that go beyond the regenerative macronutrient cycles. If you try to grow edible fruits you'll notice flavor loss as a result of hydroponic / synthetic methods.
Next door neighbor to this: I read someone who had a theory that dwarfed plants were also part of the nutrient and flavor reductions in modern grocery fare.
The model they presented was that the plant stores nutrients all year, and then when it fruits it dumps those nutrients into the fruit. With dwarfism we’ve reduced the plant size and kept the fruit size with the theory that more photosynthesis goes into the fruit. But there’s also a smaller reservoir for everything else that goes into the fruit.
The model they presented was that the plant stores nutrients all year, and then when it fruits it dumps those nutrients into the fruit. With dwarfism we’ve reduced the plant size and kept the fruit size with the theory that more photosynthesis goes into the fruit. But there’s also a smaller reservoir for everything else that goes into the fruit.
I think what is forgotten is the organisms other than plants. Hydroponics is amazing for plants but not sure if you can sustain a wineyard in that fashion for long without having some kind of organism starting to cause issues. A well balanced soil doesn't only support the plants but also provides a healthy microbiome. Now, with the use of pesticides, artificial fertilizers, and tilling it's not less synthetic process than hydrophonics. Soil degradation in presence of these are so well documented and well understood that it's crazy we keep doing it.
I only succeeded with growing African violets when I also had fish. When the violets started looking droopy or hadn’t flowered in a while I put a cup of fish tank water in the pot and foomp! Full head of flowers within about three weeks.
The tilapia/aquaponics people have a better system.
The tilapia/aquaponics people have a better system.
There are also organisms such as slugs, grubs, beetles, moths etc. which can mess with growth. I can basically not grow any sunflower at all without it getting destroyed by beetles, zucchinis by vine borer larvae, other things by slugs, etc. Makes it hard to garden without getting resentful and harboring feelings of revenge. Next thing you know you're dropping all sorts of evil chemicals on the plants. :-D
I am terraforming my limestone rocky terrain using leaves.
I believe they have trace minerals and the grub larve eat the oak leaves and poop amazing soil.
I now have 6" of black soil with earthworms!
This is in dry central Texas. Moisture helps microbial/fungal life. Leaves retain moisture.
Another key ingredient is pressure/compaction of leaves.
I have results on my YouTube channel: theRainHarvester
I believe they have trace minerals and the grub larve eat the oak leaves and poop amazing soil.
I now have 6" of black soil with earthworms!
This is in dry central Texas. Moisture helps microbial/fungal life. Leaves retain moisture.
Another key ingredient is pressure/compaction of leaves.
I have results on my YouTube channel: theRainHarvester
You ought to visit Iceland. Knowing that the entire island went from 30-40% woodland to being basically 100% deforested in a span of 100 years (the first 100 years following the Vikings arrival), and with the bare ground being fields of barren volcanic rock, to see all the sheep grazing pasture that exists today, gives you great appreciation for the amount of terraforming that was required to get even 1% of the land into that state.
If you’re not on the bandwagon yet, you should try incorporating some mushroom blocks to speed up the decomposition! It’ll also help to take the moisture retention you’re getting up an additional notch.
We’ve got a local grow block recycling program through the Central Texas Mycological Society. For your use case, all you’d need to do is bury the blocks in leaf litter with one long edge barely poking up above the surface. A combo of blue and pink oyster would probably serve you well, depending on the season.
We’ve got a local grow block recycling program through the Central Texas Mycological Society. For your use case, all you’d need to do is bury the blocks in leaf litter with one long edge barely poking up above the surface. A combo of blue and pink oyster would probably serve you well, depending on the season.
I checked out your video collection. You have some very interesting stuff and I think I may be able learn a few things.
I also live in Texas, north Texas, on a dry limestone outcrop with soil depths averaging about 6" but highly variable due to the sloping nature of the property. My best, most fertile soils are underneath the hackberry/cedar elm/live oak stands on the property where leaves are allowed to accumulate and decompose. In the cleared area, it was farmed for hay, beans, corn, etc before we bought the place, the soil is pretty light, tends to dry out quickly and can be difficult to dig if it hasn't rained in a while. Under the trees it is dark and richly connected and you can dig with your fingers to the rock ledge underneath. It's some good shit.
We grow all our garden stuff in troughs and rings since growing in the soil requires too much water due to the oven effect in the summer where the near surface rock heats up and radiates all night drying the soil making it necessary to water daily. I'm on a private water well and not terribly enthusiastic about watering anything every day since it seems like a waste to plant things that won't grow without a lot of babysitting.
I also collect rainwater from my greenhouse roof and use a solar/battery setup to drive a water pump inside one of the tanks which is just a standard plastic rotomolded tank. The other tank I have is a stainless steel tank that I got for a song since it leaked like a sieve due to design issues. I can testify that flex-seal tape doesn't work. I sealed all the joints since all were leaking and every one of them developed leaks past the tape. The only notable difference that the flex-seal tape made was in slowing the leak enough that fine particulates began to accumulate in the leaky spots and that has allowed some of the largest leaks to become trickles so that the tank will now hold water. I believe that it will eventually seal itself as all the crud tries to escape the tank and ends up forming a nice organic seal. Big win for me. I just need to put a pump on it now and extend the line to my orchard at my hugelkulture berm.
You have a bit of cedar there. We use cedar mulch to control weed growth. It is an effective weed inhibitor where we have laid it down. I have tested cypress, cedar, and hardwood mixes and cedar definitely controls everything better. We have our annual weeding process set so that we take a few hours in the fall and spring to pull about 95% of things we don't want and then over the growing season we just spend a little time yanking new growth if it happens.
You can and also should incorporate composted grass clippings (weed-free or cut from an area with native grasses and flowers). This will help build rich soil too. Avoid anything from a place that has an invasive plant problem. I am eradicating several non-natives from my place as I slowly drag it back to a native plant property. I have an area of the garden that is set aside as a pollinator attractor and it is full of natives that keep it alive with bees and insects from spring until the first good freeze. It's really rewarding to step out and hear the activity as you stand under the blackberry arches that are loaded with berries and blossoms waiting for the bugs.
I'm gonna check out some of your work, especially the Arduino controlled pump setup inside your greenhouse, since I would love to monitor my own usage from the tank.
I also live in Texas, north Texas, on a dry limestone outcrop with soil depths averaging about 6" but highly variable due to the sloping nature of the property. My best, most fertile soils are underneath the hackberry/cedar elm/live oak stands on the property where leaves are allowed to accumulate and decompose. In the cleared area, it was farmed for hay, beans, corn, etc before we bought the place, the soil is pretty light, tends to dry out quickly and can be difficult to dig if it hasn't rained in a while. Under the trees it is dark and richly connected and you can dig with your fingers to the rock ledge underneath. It's some good shit.
We grow all our garden stuff in troughs and rings since growing in the soil requires too much water due to the oven effect in the summer where the near surface rock heats up and radiates all night drying the soil making it necessary to water daily. I'm on a private water well and not terribly enthusiastic about watering anything every day since it seems like a waste to plant things that won't grow without a lot of babysitting.
I also collect rainwater from my greenhouse roof and use a solar/battery setup to drive a water pump inside one of the tanks which is just a standard plastic rotomolded tank. The other tank I have is a stainless steel tank that I got for a song since it leaked like a sieve due to design issues. I can testify that flex-seal tape doesn't work. I sealed all the joints since all were leaking and every one of them developed leaks past the tape. The only notable difference that the flex-seal tape made was in slowing the leak enough that fine particulates began to accumulate in the leaky spots and that has allowed some of the largest leaks to become trickles so that the tank will now hold water. I believe that it will eventually seal itself as all the crud tries to escape the tank and ends up forming a nice organic seal. Big win for me. I just need to put a pump on it now and extend the line to my orchard at my hugelkulture berm.
You have a bit of cedar there. We use cedar mulch to control weed growth. It is an effective weed inhibitor where we have laid it down. I have tested cypress, cedar, and hardwood mixes and cedar definitely controls everything better. We have our annual weeding process set so that we take a few hours in the fall and spring to pull about 95% of things we don't want and then over the growing season we just spend a little time yanking new growth if it happens.
You can and also should incorporate composted grass clippings (weed-free or cut from an area with native grasses and flowers). This will help build rich soil too. Avoid anything from a place that has an invasive plant problem. I am eradicating several non-natives from my place as I slowly drag it back to a native plant property. I have an area of the garden that is set aside as a pollinator attractor and it is full of natives that keep it alive with bees and insects from spring until the first good freeze. It's really rewarding to step out and hear the activity as you stand under the blackberry arches that are loaded with berries and blossoms waiting for the bugs.
I'm gonna check out some of your work, especially the Arduino controlled pump setup inside your greenhouse, since I would love to monitor my own usage from the tank.
Your comment makes me think of those people who say "plants need light and water". It's expanded, sure: "plants need light, water and NPK" ... but no, that's also extremely naive. The point is, until very recently, western science knew almost nothing about botanical systems. We are only reaching the level of many traditional societies now. (If you are skeptical, check any horticultural reference for the difference in tree height observed in nature vs. "in cultivation"... often 50% height!) The reality is actually obvious: plants actually need an entire ecosystem.
Frankly, western botany used to sustain the outdated view that planting a tree in a field with full sun was "the best way" because it was "not competing".
It now turns out plants grow better with diverse friends and an ecosystem.
Aspects of this include but are not limited to insect life, fungal networks, resource exchange, and subsoil life such as earthworms as well as soil protection, wind protection, sun protection (most many recent seedlings cannot withstand full sun and deeply appreciate increased humidity).
Just adding NPK doesn't bring in insects, doesn't bring in soil protection, doesn't bring in fungi. In fact, it may very well poison these elements within an emergent ecosystem.
Frankly, western botany used to sustain the outdated view that planting a tree in a field with full sun was "the best way" because it was "not competing".
It now turns out plants grow better with diverse friends and an ecosystem.
Aspects of this include but are not limited to insect life, fungal networks, resource exchange, and subsoil life such as earthworms as well as soil protection, wind protection, sun protection (most many recent seedlings cannot withstand full sun and deeply appreciate increased humidity).
Just adding NPK doesn't bring in insects, doesn't bring in soil protection, doesn't bring in fungi. In fact, it may very well poison these elements within an emergent ecosystem.
> difference in tree height observed in nature vs. "in cultivation"... often 50% height!
Trees in nature are usually in forests, where they grow tall in competition for light. Terra in cultivation tend to be grown surrounded by grass, growing wider and shorter to collect sunshine.
Trees in nature are usually in forests, where they grow tall in competition for light. Terra in cultivation tend to be grown surrounded by grass, growing wider and shorter to collect sunshine.
Exactly that sort of false reductionism is missing the point.
While reduced sunlight can have a role in early stage height differences, this occurs both in cultivation and in nature and therefore is not a sole causative factor.
The sort of factors being indicated that were previously ignored by western horticulture are interaction based. Cultivated trees often face simplified fungal communities, limiting nutrient diversity compared to natural forests’ complex networks. Furthermore, natural forests exhibit interconnected fungal systems that facilitate nutrient redistribution between trees and improved community pathogen resistance.
The average person is unaware or thinks this is fantasy. They are ignorant. Don't be ignorant.
While reduced sunlight can have a role in early stage height differences, this occurs both in cultivation and in nature and therefore is not a sole causative factor.
The sort of factors being indicated that were previously ignored by western horticulture are interaction based. Cultivated trees often face simplified fungal communities, limiting nutrient diversity compared to natural forests’ complex networks. Furthermore, natural forests exhibit interconnected fungal systems that facilitate nutrient redistribution between trees and improved community pathogen resistance.
The average person is unaware or thinks this is fantasy. They are ignorant. Don't be ignorant.
It’s not ignorant to point out the main reason that trees in cultivation are shorter, which is that there is no need for them to grow tall. They’re also a lot greater in trunk diameter, fwiw.
> main reason
{{citation-needed}} # good luck with that
{{citation-needed}} # good luck with that
Have you never grown a plant? They grow towards the light. If there’s not enough light, they grow tall and leggy. This isn’t revolutionary.
對牛彈琴
sure, we can make them grow well in a lab. but a natural system is so much simpler and elegant
Plants absorb nitrogen and CO2 from the air and store it in their roots; plants fertilize soil.
If you only grow plants with externally-sourced nutrients, that is neither sustainable nor permaculture.
Though it may be more efficient to grow without soil; soil depletion isn't prevented by production processes that do not generate topsoil.
JADAM is a system developed by a chemicals engineer given what is observed to work in JNF/KNF. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38527264
Where do soil amendments come from, and what would deplete those stocks (with consideration for soil depletion)?
(Also, there are extremely efficient ammonia/nitrogen fertilizer generators, but still then the algae due to runoff problem. FWIU we should we asks ng farmers to Please produce granulated fertilizer instead of liquid.)
The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices; which other countries are further along at implementing (in or to prevent or reverse soil depletion).
Tilling turns topsoil to dirt due to loss of moisture, oxidation, and solar radiation.
If you only grow plants with externally-sourced nutrients, that is neither sustainable nor permaculture.
Though it may be more efficient to grow without soil; soil depletion isn't prevented by production processes that do not generate topsoil.
JADAM is a system developed by a chemicals engineer given what is observed to work in JNF/KNF. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38527264
Where do soil amendments come from, and what would deplete those stocks (with consideration for soil depletion)?
(Also, there are extremely efficient ammonia/nitrogen fertilizer generators, but still then the algae due to runoff problem. FWIU we should we asks ng farmers to Please produce granulated fertilizer instead of liquid.)
The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices; which other countries are further along at implementing (in or to prevent or reverse soil depletion).
Tilling turns topsoil to dirt due to loss of moisture, oxidation, and solar radiation.
The vast majority of plants do not absorb nitrogen from the air. Legumes are the well-known exception.
That, and most of the other nutrients which was needed to grow the vegies ( like phosphates and potassium) are flushed into the toilet. There will be no long term permaculture without cycling those back at some point. Otherwise, organic or not, this will remains an wasteful open loop.
I think that's why it's good to rotate beans or plant clover cover crop.
Three Sisters: Corn, Beans, Squash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)
Companion planting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting
Nitrogen fixation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation
Three Sisters: Corn, Beans, Squash: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)
Companion planting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting
Nitrogen fixation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation
From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43764441 :
> "Discovery of nitrogen-fixing corn variety could reduce need for added fertilizer" (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17721741
> "Discovery of nitrogen-fixing corn variety could reduce need for added fertilizer" (2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17721741
Most plants do not absorb atmospheric nitrogen, but need external nitride fertilizer to grow! That causes serious ground water polution!
> The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices
This actually depletes soil of nitrogen!
> The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices
This actually depletes soil of nitrogen!
Why do you believe that no-till farming practices deplete soil of nitrogen more than tilling?
A plausible hypothesis: tilling destroys the bacteria that get nitrogen to plant roots.
Isn't runoff erision the primary preventable source of nitrogen depletion?
FWIU residue mulch initially absorbs atmospheric nitrogen instead of the soil absorbing it, but that residue and its additional nitrogen eventually decays into the soil.
I have heard that it takes something like five years to successfully completely transform acreage with no-till; and then it's relatively soft and easily plantable and not impacted, so it absorbs and holds water.
No-till farmers are not lacking soil samples.
What would be a good test of total change in soil nitrogen content (and runoff) given no-till and legacy farming practices?
With pressure-injection seeders and laser weeders, how many fewer chemicals are necessary for pro farming?
A plausible hypothesis: tilling destroys the bacteria that get nitrogen to plant roots.
Isn't runoff erision the primary preventable source of nitrogen depletion?
FWIU residue mulch initially absorbs atmospheric nitrogen instead of the soil absorbing it, but that residue and its additional nitrogen eventually decays into the soil.
I have heard that it takes something like five years to successfully completely transform acreage with no-till; and then it's relatively soft and easily plantable and not impacted, so it absorbs and holds water.
No-till farmers are not lacking soil samples.
What would be a good test of total change in soil nitrogen content (and runoff) given no-till and legacy farming practices?
With pressure-injection seeders and laser weeders, how many fewer chemicals are necessary for pro farming?
[deleted]
tilling with anything more than human power should be banned!
and easier and time tested and resilient
Uh, pretty much every farmer I ever met is going to disagree.
Farming is hard, unpredictable (prone to disasters/famine/plagues), and prone to all sorts of problems with soil, weather, etc.
The reason modern fertilizer and pesticides are used so widely is they make that fundamentally extremely difficult process easier and more predictable.
Farming is hard, unpredictable (prone to disasters/famine/plagues), and prone to all sorts of problems with soil, weather, etc.
The reason modern fertilizer and pesticides are used so widely is they make that fundamentally extremely difficult process easier and more predictable.
I am pretty sure he was referring to lab-grown, but as to its accuracy; I cannot comment.
lol yes, farming is hard as fuck. i'm comparing to growing food in high tech ways outside of soil
Hydroponics eastable plant parts taste like crap, a very pale shadow of earth-grown ones.
Maybe there is some semi-magical way how to grow veggies in hydroponics well, but nobody doing mass produce figured that out so results are subpar on many aspects.
Maybe there is some semi-magical way how to grow veggies in hydroponics well, but nobody doing mass produce figured that out so results are subpar on many aspects.
You need to spend more money on adding “optional” nutrients that would otherwise be produced by organic processes in a living soil. These nutrients are what add to flavor but don’t necessarily help with the growing process.
The distinction isn’t hydroponics vs soil - it’s organic vs inorganic farming. Non organic soil faces the same issues. Aquaponics (I.e organic hydroponics using fish and other aquatic organisms) also yield flavorful crops.
The distinction isn’t hydroponics vs soil - it’s organic vs inorganic farming. Non organic soil faces the same issues. Aquaponics (I.e organic hydroponics using fish and other aquatic organisms) also yield flavorful crops.
I think there’s a perception that hydroponic systems are less resilient as well as an erroneous belief that they are more complex than soil (their supply chains might be, but the systems themselves are not).
hydroponics raised vegetables taste like bland slop. if you're an actual food enjoyer anyone can easily notice this
A connected great article: Junk Food Is Bad For Plants, Too
https://nautil.us/junk-food-is-bad-for-plants-too-235857/
https://nautil.us/junk-food-is-bad-for-plants-too-235857/
they paywall right before they say anything of note
I imagine this is climbing to the top because people like the idea of healthy soil.
My very small organic no till garden is lots of manual labour. when one person grows food for 1 million I laugh to see a picture of someone standing in a field with a shovel ‘fixing soil’
People don’t stand in a field fixing soil one shovel at a time. They’re fixing soil with larger machinery and taking samples to research the soils fixes.
Sure, but in this article, they talk about traditional methods of soil management. There’s nothing about stopping erosion or implementing no till on an industrial scale.
Well, I don't know about a million, but there are small scale profitable commercial farms doing this. One local farm I get my seasonal veggies from had 200 tonne carrot and parsnip over-production this year due to favorable conditions and they are tiny: https://www.noshitfood.nl/ [unfortunately only in Dutch]
There’s not that much in the article, it’s more of a setting the case.
Mention is made of “using AI” and other data sources, and that’s what I’d like to read far more about.
I wonder if the new future is writing MCPs so agents can access the data.
Mention is made of “using AI” and other data sources, and that’s what I’d like to read far more about.
I wonder if the new future is writing MCPs so agents can access the data.
"using AI" is just a marketing buzzword, a few years ago it would've said "IoT and Big Data", before that it probably would've said "DHTML".
https://consciousplanet.org/en/save-soil
Sadhguru rode 30k km on bike across Europe , Asia to spread the message about depleting soil.
Sadhguru rode 30k km on bike across Europe , Asia to spread the message about depleting soil.
Here are the primary components that you would require -
1. Organic Matter: Compost and mulch enrich soil and improve structure.
2. Microorganisms: Bacteria, fungi, and mycorrhizae break down organic matter and enhance nutrient uptake.
3. Soil Fauna: Earthworms, insects, and arachnids aerate soil and mix organic matter.
4. Nutrients: Macronutrients (N, P, K) and micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, etc.) are essential for plant growth.
5. Soil Structure: Aggregates and porosity improve aeration and water retention.
6. Water Management: Proper irrigation and drainage ensure optimal soil moisture.
Item 3 is important in more ways than most people realize. Last year many farmers in my area that planted soybeans early had a problem with slugs eating the sprouting beans and were forced to replant multiple times. This spring I went to a growers conference and heard a presentation by a Prof. Tooker from Penn State Ag about the slug problem, which he has been researching for several years. Turns out that the slug infestation can be directly traced to the use of insecticides used in seed treatments. The insecticides kill beetles (and other beneficial insects) that eat the slugs but don't kill slugs because they aren't insects (they are mollusks). No beetles more slugs. Take away is don't use treated seed. However, standard practice at seed companies is to treat seed with fungicides and insecticides, thus creating a problem rather than solving it.
The attempt is surely to solve for an abundance of beetles, but it is often helpful to think of many of these 'problems' as imbalances.
Nature does not work in two-variable equations, and the abundance or absence of an element typically has repercussions that are difficult to study.
An often-cited example of missing the bigger picture in controlling one variable would be the Chinese campaign against the Four Pests - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
Nature does not work in two-variable equations, and the abundance or absence of an element typically has repercussions that are difficult to study.
An often-cited example of missing the bigger picture in controlling one variable would be the Chinese campaign against the Four Pests - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
When I think about insects and slugs, then slugs are typically considerably larger and have more body mass. Is it only the smaller slugs or slug eggs that the insects eat? I have a hard time imagining a beetle eating a slug.
We just need to add a mollusk treatment!
Please - if I wanted to know what an LLM thinks about this, I would have asked it myself.
I was just coming to comment the same thing. This seems like an ai bot answer. And it's a green username
It really is a "nobody asked" kind of comment.
Amusingly, it is catastrophically wrong, like AI slop typically is.
Can you explain the catastrophe? It does seem AI generated but it doesn’t seem wrong
It doesn't mention soil pH at all. AI didn't mention anything about sending off samples to a soil lab for testing, just "dump good sounding stuff on your soil, that'll make everything better!" It didn't even mention grabbing a recent soil survey to get a rough idea of what soil you are dealing with. It is garbage advice which will lead you to waste money and likely make your soil worse instead of better.
2 provides 4 from the insitu minerals. It may be necessary to add minerals if you are growing plants that require something the native minerals dont have. But, the majority of minerals plants need are available everywhere. The soil biology is required to unlock it for plants to use.
If you see the macrobiota in soil it is an indicator microbiota is present. The more the merrier.
If you see the macrobiota in soil it is an indicator microbiota is present. The more the merrier.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta