Comma 3X: Initial Impressions(beesbuzz.biz)
beesbuzz.biz
Comma 3X: Initial Impressions
https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/14719-Comma-3X-Initial-impressions
59 comments
Even when you "just" cannot guarantee that you can keep your car in your lane, you shouldn't be driving.
It’s the fear of a vestibular attack that gives me anxiety which causes a vestibular attack. These attacks last like two seconds. Having a thing that keeps me lane centered has stopped the vestibular attacks. If I have another big one I will definitely pull over.
I am disabled, unemployed, and live alone and have no other reliable access to transportation. What else am I supposed to do? Simply stop existing?
I am well aware that I am taking a huge risk. It is harm reduction. And as the main underlying issue is anxiety, simply having a safety net (or even the perception of a safety net) has significantly cut down on the anxiety.
I am disabled, unemployed, and live alone and have no other reliable access to transportation. What else am I supposed to do? Simply stop existing?
I am well aware that I am taking a huge risk. It is harm reduction. And as the main underlying issue is anxiety, simply having a safety net (or even the perception of a safety net) has significantly cut down on the anxiety.
I'm sorry you've been dealt a bad hand but please don't make it worse by risking other people's lives. You're not fit to drive, period. Your circumstances don't excuse this behaviour outside of an emergency.
either move in with someone else or get an ebike/scooter? you don't have a god given right to operate a 2000 pound death machine.
> I am well aware that I am taking a huge risk.
Right, but you're not just risking yourself here, mate. Please reconsider whether or not you should be operating heavy machinery.
Right, but you're not just risking yourself here, mate. Please reconsider whether or not you should be operating heavy machinery.
At least you are aware that you are an increased risk every time you drive.
Which means when you do inevitably kill someone and ruin the lives of their friends and family you will be culpable and spend a long time in jail.
You are morally on par with a drink driver and deserve zero sympathy from anyone.
Which means when you do inevitably kill someone and ruin the lives of their friends and family you will be culpable and spend a long time in jail.
You are morally on par with a drink driver and deserve zero sympathy from anyone.
> I am well aware that I am taking a huge risk
You're not the one taking the main risk though: that would be the cyclists and pedestrians around you (as well as other motorists, to a lesser degree).
I appreciate the difficulty of your situation and I really don't want to be a judgemental jerk to you. But also ... yeah, based on what you've written this really doesn't sit well with me.
There's a reason people with things such as epileptic seizures are not permitted to drive unless they're 1) medicated for it, and 2) been free of seizures for a period of time to prove the medication works reliably.
You're not the one taking the main risk though: that would be the cyclists and pedestrians around you (as well as other motorists, to a lesser degree).
I appreciate the difficulty of your situation and I really don't want to be a judgemental jerk to you. But also ... yeah, based on what you've written this really doesn't sit well with me.
There's a reason people with things such as epileptic seizures are not permitted to drive unless they're 1) medicated for it, and 2) been free of seizures for a period of time to prove the medication works reliably.
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All it’ll take is one crash - or someone requesting a DMV medical review.
Surely that's not legal to have someone with surprise vertigo that impairs ability to steer a car straight on public roads?
That seems utterly insane to me. Even people driving with severe disabilities are expected to maintain continuous control of their vehicle. Anything else is willfully endangering others
That seems utterly insane to me. Even people driving with severe disabilities are expected to maintain continuous control of their vehicle. Anything else is willfully endangering others
I love my Comma 3X. You just need to have the right expectations. I honestly think their motto of "making driving chill" is a really apt description. I use it in traffic and on the interstate almost all the time, and then on more suburban drives in that 30-40mph range, which is where my Ioniq's HDA doesn't activate. Also IIRC the Ioniq's HDA is map based so very frequently in the city it would just straight up deactivate without any warning due to construction I'm guessing messing with maps. The lateral steering is so much better than the stock LKAS on my car which is jerky and probably scares the living shit out of other drivers. HDA2 is probably a 4/10, Comma is probably an 8/10 in terms of just general driver experience. I've done multiple long (150mi+) drives where I don't touch the wheel for nearly 95% of the trip.
The one thing I worry about though is that they really were promising a lot with the new MLSIM training architecture, and consensus (and my own anecdotal experience) is that these newer models have not been great. They've been working on MLSIM for a whiiiiiile now and there really hasn't been any improvement, though I fully endorse why they are going that way and I understand the difficulty of the problem.
The one thing I worry about though is that they really were promising a lot with the new MLSIM training architecture, and consensus (and my own anecdotal experience) is that these newer models have not been great. They've been working on MLSIM for a whiiiiiile now and there really hasn't been any improvement, though I fully endorse why they are going that way and I understand the difficulty of the problem.
I also have the 3x for my Ioniq 5.
Steering is about 25% better than HDA when solely based on lined lanes, but the 3X is able to adapt to situations that the LKA/HDA would just disengage (such as passing through an intersection) or a random car parked on the side of the road.
I routinely use it even on NYC streets and grass parking lots. It's about 80% accurate in avoiding unexpected cars and larger obstacles or following simply a "laid down" grass trail from a previous car in a grass lot or field.
I did buy it expecting results like in the "Taco bell" video -- and was disappointed under those expectations at first, but after a reality check I still decided to keep it and have easily driven 40,000 miles with it since.
Steering is about 25% better than HDA when solely based on lined lanes, but the 3X is able to adapt to situations that the LKA/HDA would just disengage (such as passing through an intersection) or a random car parked on the side of the road.
I routinely use it even on NYC streets and grass parking lots. It's about 80% accurate in avoiding unexpected cars and larger obstacles or following simply a "laid down" grass trail from a previous car in a grass lot or field.
I did buy it expecting results like in the "Taco bell" video -- and was disappointed under those expectations at first, but after a reality check I still decided to keep it and have easily driven 40,000 miles with it since.
So in the US you can replace/add hardware to your car and install some open source software on it that takes over steering and braking, and this is legal? I'm amazed. Here I can't even install an aftermarket blinker if it does not have the correct certificates, ID numbers and documents, to be carried in the car at all times.
There are a decent number of requirements placed on manufacturers, but the use of vehicles in the US are primarily regulated at the state level. Most states do not perform safety inspections vehicles, and even when they do, they are minimal in nature (e.g. do the lights work, are there holes in the exhaust, are the tires and brakes worn out?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit...
Police can pull someone over for faulty equipment, but that would generally have to be an egregiously obvious defect.
From a federal level, the primary thing that is illegal to modify is emissions equipment (however, if a vehicle is registered in a state without inspections, even that is essentially unenforced)
In much of the US, you can legally drive just about anything with brakes, seatbelts, lights, wipers, turn signals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_Unit...
Police can pull someone over for faulty equipment, but that would generally have to be an egregiously obvious defect.
From a federal level, the primary thing that is illegal to modify is emissions equipment (however, if a vehicle is registered in a state without inspections, even that is essentially unenforced)
In much of the US, you can legally drive just about anything with brakes, seatbelts, lights, wipers, turn signals.
The US has very lax automotive regulaions. The manufacturer has to affirm that the vehicle meets road worthiness standards (FMVSS) at sale and aftermarket parts aren't supposed to be sold or installed if they would take vehicles out of compliance. There are essentially no rules on driver assistance, so there's not much that would be prohibited.
> So in the US you can replace/add hardware to your car and install some open source software on it that takes over steering and braking, and this is legal?
US is a heaven for car enthusiasts, builders, fabricators, modders, etc
As far as I know, none of the other countries allow any kind, small or big, of modification to their cars. And, any changes like engine oil must be done by a pro. Too bad for them, they've killed a multi-billion-dollar industry themselves and thousands of jobs too.
US is a heaven for car enthusiasts, builders, fabricators, modders, etc
As far as I know, none of the other countries allow any kind, small or big, of modification to their cars. And, any changes like engine oil must be done by a pro. Too bad for them, they've killed a multi-billion-dollar industry themselves and thousands of jobs too.
>I really wish I could disable the endless ads for Comma Prime
If it's open source, why can't you?
>driving model ... will only get better over time
Citation needed
> I don’t seem to be having as much vertigo when driving
If keeping your license is a goal, I wouldn't admit to this publicly. That's aside the ethical issues discussed elsewhere in this thread.
If it's open source, why can't you?
>driving model ... will only get better over time
Citation needed
> I don’t seem to be having as much vertigo when driving
If keeping your license is a goal, I wouldn't admit to this publicly. That's aside the ethical issues discussed elsewhere in this thread.
I bought one for my 2020 Toyota Sienna a couple months ago. The best analogy is that it's like upgrading to Tesla Autopilot. It's great for highway and freeway driving but not city streets.
I've found it works for suburban streets really well, and I've even used it for city streets with no problems. Nothing about city streets makes it not work except the need to frequently stop for lights and stop signs.
I'm still too nervous to hand driving control over to AI (from any vendor), but one thing I wish existed was a system that passively monitored my driving and gave me safety feedback. Like if I got into a near-collision, the system would tell me what I could have done earlier to avoid the risky situation to begin with. Does anything like this exist for consumers?
Sounds like a neat idea and potential fit with certain niche market. But I would be surprise if the answer is not just drive slower in most of the cases. In that case do you still want more specifics like brake timing? Optimal speed given current traffic condition, visibility, and curvature?
Stuff like that but also near misses. Like, "you cut off another car and they had to slam the brakes."
There are also subtle precautions that not everyone knows. For example, I was taught that when waiting for traffic to clear for a left turn (in the US and other right hand driving countries), I should keep the wheel straight until immediately before I accelerate. That way, if someone rear ends me, I go forward rather than left into oncoming traffic. I suspect there are other techniques like that that I'm not aware of.
There are also subtle precautions that not everyone knows. For example, I was taught that when waiting for traffic to clear for a left turn (in the US and other right hand driving countries), I should keep the wheel straight until immediately before I accelerate. That way, if someone rear ends me, I go forward rather than left into oncoming traffic. I suspect there are other techniques like that that I'm not aware of.
Owh that's kinda cool, Ive never thought of that. Perhaps Im constrained by my thoughts, but I think for it to be practical it requires detecting driver's intention, which seems difficult to achieve by using only vehicular sensors data.
> but one thing I wish existed was a system that passively monitored my driving and gave me safety feedback
Most cars with these features also have features where they will beep/vibrate at you if you're going outside of the lane or it seems like you're going to have a collision.
Most cars with these features also have features where they will beep/vibrate at you if you're going outside of the lane or it seems like you're going to have a collision.
What does this thing do? The sales page doesn't help much either "The comma 3X is custom hardware designed to live in your car, and purpose built to run openpilot." What is openpilot??
To me this just looks like a generic dashcam
To me this just looks like a generic dashcam
It's really not hard to just search "openpilot" and click the first link. There's also a link at the top of the comma.ai website that links to the same page.
https://comma.ai/openpilot
openpilot is an open source advanced driver assistance system that works on 300+ car models of Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, and many other brands.
https://comma.ai/openpilot
openpilot is an open source advanced driver assistance system that works on 300+ car models of Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, and many other brands.
Automated Lane Centering
Adaptive Cruise Control
Lane Change Assist
Driver Monitoring (no wheel nags)
Can drive for hours without intervention
Open source and developed on GitHubIt is an advanced driving assistance system. It kind of drives your car for you (lane centering, basic obstacle avoidance, and adaptive cruise control all without you have to touch the wheel or the pedals) as long as you’re looking forward and paying attention to the road.
They have demonstrated full self driving capabilities with a car driving “itself” to Taco Bell. I have a comma3 and have never had much success with that feature. The car drove itself very slowly and seems to just weirdly creep through stop signs. I think the last time I tested that was over a year and a half ago, so it may have improved.
I use mine only on the highways. I noticed for long trips (6+ hours), I can drive longer distances in one go and not feel as fatigued when I reach my destination. As an example, a 10 hour trip to visit family (11-12 hours including stops) I can do by myself in one day with the comma device instead of stopping halfway, or splitting driving time with someone else. For shorter trips (3-6 hours), I arrive to my destination with more energy than when I drive without these features. I am also able to focus more on potential obstacles further down the road than without it.
I think my device has already paid for itself thanks to a couple year period where I had to do that 12 hour trip I mentioned a couple times per month. Plus it is a really nice dash cam.
They have demonstrated full self driving capabilities with a car driving “itself” to Taco Bell. I have a comma3 and have never had much success with that feature. The car drove itself very slowly and seems to just weirdly creep through stop signs. I think the last time I tested that was over a year and a half ago, so it may have improved.
I use mine only on the highways. I noticed for long trips (6+ hours), I can drive longer distances in one go and not feel as fatigued when I reach my destination. As an example, a 10 hour trip to visit family (11-12 hours including stops) I can do by myself in one day with the comma device instead of stopping halfway, or splitting driving time with someone else. For shorter trips (3-6 hours), I arrive to my destination with more energy than when I drive without these features. I am also able to focus more on potential obstacles further down the road than without it.
I think my device has already paid for itself thanks to a couple year period where I had to do that 12 hour trip I mentioned a couple times per month. Plus it is a really nice dash cam.
Are you tuning out closer concerns like lane keeping or smaller objects?
How can you be confident the system is at least as reliable with the concerns you are less focused on?
How can you be confident the system is at least as reliable with the concerns you are less focused on?
> How can you be confident the system is at least as reliable with the concerns you are less focused on?
That's my current heartache with my Comma: it does a stunningly shitty job about decelerating into brake lights ahead, choosing rather to keep accelerating (or I guess keeping speed) and then slamming on the brakes as it gets a few feet from the car. OT1H, it's never actually put me in danger, OTOH I don't want "next time" to be the bad luck
Not only does that make me super nervous, it's also a rear-ending risk (since the poor Comma can't see what's behind me)
I haven't worked up the nerve to build and flash one of the 18 quadrillion forks onto my Comma; I've heard some of them are better, but that some word is doing a lot of work
That's my current heartache with my Comma: it does a stunningly shitty job about decelerating into brake lights ahead, choosing rather to keep accelerating (or I guess keeping speed) and then slamming on the brakes as it gets a few feet from the car. OT1H, it's never actually put me in danger, OTOH I don't want "next time" to be the bad luck
Not only does that make me super nervous, it's also a rear-ending risk (since the poor Comma can't see what's behind me)
I haven't worked up the nerve to build and flash one of the 18 quadrillion forks onto my Comma; I've heard some of them are better, but that some word is doing a lot of work
> They have demonstrated full self driving capabilities with a car driving "itself" to Taco Bell. I have a comma3 and have never had much success
I'm surprised you've even had any success. Are you a Comma Prime subscriber or something? Because mine absolutely gives no shits about red (or yellow!) lights, stop signs, "danger, sharp curve ahead," nothing. If it's the open road, lucky me. If there's the slightest decision to make, best to disengage
I'm surprised you've even had any success. Are you a Comma Prime subscriber or something? Because mine absolutely gives no shits about red (or yellow!) lights, stop signs, "danger, sharp curve ahead," nothing. If it's the open road, lucky me. If there's the slightest decision to make, best to disengage
The US government made them tie their hands behind their back a few years ago, NHTSA tried to shut down the company so they rebranded their then Comma 2 as a dashcam that might be able to drive your car.
Golly, sure is great regulations to protect pedestrians and other road users are trivially bypassed or bought off. /s
I find this product appealing, but aren't you taking on full liability when using it? Not having the company I buy a product like this from have any liability seems like bad incentives and makes me nervous, currently wouldn't drive with my family in the car especially. For instance, what if there was a bug that caused the system to make an abrupt right turn off the road? Seems highly unlikely, but again, if they are confident it is safe, can they not have some legal skin in the game to prove it?
Is this different than any other time?
you crash your car (mechanical problem) -> Ford says "not our fault, we're not paying" -> you sue Ford -> court decides
you crash your car (FSD problem) -> Tesla says "not our fault, we're not paying" -> you sue Tesla -> court decides
you crash your car (Comma problem) -> Comma says "not our fault, we're not paying" -> you sue Comma -> court decides
you crash your car (mechanical problem) -> Ford says "not our fault, we're not paying" -> you sue Ford -> court decides
you crash your car (FSD problem) -> Tesla says "not our fault, we're not paying" -> you sue Tesla -> court decides
you crash your car (Comma problem) -> Comma says "not our fault, we're not paying" -> you sue Comma -> court decides
Maybe it's me, but I think in the worse case scenario (criminal liability), a jury will be more sympathetic to a person (acting in good faith) that had an issue because of the car manufacturer's provided system than they would to a person who installed a DIY/open source self-driving system.
And I say this as someone who considered trying out the project.
And I say this as someone who considered trying out the project.
> you crash your car (FSD problem) -> Tesla says "not our fault, we're not paying" -> you sue Tesla -> court decides
That's only if you sent Tesla a written notice within 30 days of purchasing that you wished to opt out of the binding arbitration clause in the purchase agreement you had to agree to to get the car.
That's only if you sent Tesla a written notice within 30 days of purchasing that you wished to opt out of the binding arbitration clause in the purchase agreement you had to agree to to get the car.
> but aren't you taking on full liability when using it
Of course. And if you were to do something stupid like take your hands off the wheel it would constitute reckless driving. Which means in an accident your warranty is void, insurance claims extinguished and you would be criminally liable for any bodily damage/death.
I will never understand the logic of anyone using a product like this.
Of course. And if you were to do something stupid like take your hands off the wheel it would constitute reckless driving. Which means in an accident your warranty is void, insurance claims extinguished and you would be criminally liable for any bodily damage/death.
I will never understand the logic of anyone using a product like this.
GM will take responsibility for accidents with super cruise if it was being used as intended [1] - and that includes eyes on road, hands free driving. Hands free means a very bad bug where it jerked off the road with no warning seems like it falls in that bucket. I wouldn’t consider my inability to grab the wheel instantly in that scenario stupid. With comma, in that scenario, it would still just be, hey, you are running open source software you installed at your own risk, right?
Comma could come installed with open pilot and some limited liability, but it puts it all on you having you install it yourself. That is making less and less sense to me as they mature. I would think they could take on some liability, and still have the ability to defend themselves in cases where an accident was due to reckless use (e.g circumventing eyes on road tracking) or improper installation.
[1] https://blog.moseleycollins.com/will-gm-take-responsibility-...
Comma could come installed with open pilot and some limited liability, but it puts it all on you having you install it yourself. That is making less and less sense to me as they mature. I would think they could take on some liability, and still have the ability to defend themselves in cases where an accident was due to reckless use (e.g circumventing eyes on road tracking) or improper installation.
[1] https://blog.moseleycollins.com/will-gm-take-responsibility-...
You're responsible for what your car does period. Using anything to help you drive does not absolve you of your responsibility to operate your vehicle in a safe manner.
Any autopilot/self driving/driver assistance system with a couple of very narrow exceptions(waymo etc..) is only an assistant and does not remove your responsibility to operate your vehicle safely.
Any autopilot/self driving/driver assistance system with a couple of very narrow exceptions(waymo etc..) is only an assistant and does not remove your responsibility to operate your vehicle safely.
huh, you can't read this blog if your referrer is "hacker" "news"? Seems kind of childish regardless of what you think of this site. Anyway
> It’s open source
> I can just move this device into the new one, rather than being beholden to the car’s manufacturer who at best wants to charge an exorbitant subscription fee for this stuff
Unless things changed recently, the model isn't open source so not really open source but more importantly, something about the comparison between "open source" and the "exorbitant" price of $99/month rubs me the wrong way. Opens ource isn't generally free to develop, and if you'd be willing to buy and install this it clearly provides more than $0 of value to OP - why wouldn't they want to invest some money a month into the project so that it sticks around and continues to mature? Why is open source always treated as the "free" option just because it costs _you_ $0 to download it and why Is $99/m exorbitant? Compared to what?
> It’s open source
> I can just move this device into the new one, rather than being beholden to the car’s manufacturer who at best wants to charge an exorbitant subscription fee for this stuff
Unless things changed recently, the model isn't open source so not really open source but more importantly, something about the comparison between "open source" and the "exorbitant" price of $99/month rubs me the wrong way. Opens ource isn't generally free to develop, and if you'd be willing to buy and install this it clearly provides more than $0 of value to OP - why wouldn't they want to invest some money a month into the project so that it sticks around and continues to mature? Why is open source always treated as the "free" option just because it costs _you_ $0 to download it and why Is $99/m exorbitant? Compared to what?
It seems the OP (“fluffycritter”) got very upset that everyone called out they shouldn’t be using this to create a liability on wheels to hide their medical condition and has resorted to an infantile 403 on the referrer in bad faith.
I like the concept of the Comma device. If only to get just one feature from it, adaptive cruise control.
But it requires for me to not only reverse engineer, but potentially also modify the firmware of my ABS unit to allow it to brake, which I am not comfortable doing.
But it requires for me to not only reverse engineer, but potentially also modify the firmware of my ABS unit to allow it to brake, which I am not comfortable doing.
This isn't true; no reverse engineering or firmware modification is necessary.
There's some hair splitting here: one may have to reverse engineer the mappings of the can bus for your car if you want to port the Comma to your platform, but I do believe the second clause is correct: it's a MITM system and does not monkey with the onboard ECM at all. Unplug device, give to dealer for service or updates, plug device back in
True in my experience. Back in 2019 i got a model year 2020 honda civic hatchback that was not yet supported. So as not to break the car, I purchased an oem steering motor for the car, dumped the firmware and then found the necessary data to support the car. I've been using comma since then. Other comments are correct about it being an assistant. You are the captain, now thinking more strategically about the road and vehicles ahead. The comma handles the tactical of keeping between the lines. The brain relief from all the mostly automatic constant correction is huge on long road trips. It's got a good driver attention model as well. Keep your eyes on the road. I will say a pair of glasses frames is sufficient to fool it though.
So I take that this sends CAN messages to borgify the steering control in a car with lanekeeping. One that was never designed or certified for FSD. And using only two front facing cameras. There is a whole lot of legal liability taken on by the driver and Comma when this Goldbergian system inevitably fails because it encounters conditions never tested outside of SoCal.
Tesla Autopilot works exactly the same way.
Comma.ai uses uploaded video from anyone[1] with a Comma device to train their models, so it is most definitely not just SoCal. I thought they had a few datasets available because they run competitions on them but I didn't have much luck digging up supporting links
1: I believe it's possible to opt out, and believe it's also possible to change the upload endpoint to a storage bucket that you control, if you do want the segments just not for Comma to have them
1: I believe it's possible to opt out, and believe it's also possible to change the upload endpoint to a storage bucket that you control, if you do want the segments just not for Comma to have them
[deleted]
Lots if fibro stuff so if you are reading.
Yeah LDN I do found a bit helpful! Worth a try but ymmv. r/cfs is good.
Yeah LDN I do found a bit helpful! Worth a try but ymmv. r/cfs is good.
I tried LDN, it didn’t help at all unfortunately.
Thanks for responding. Know what its like--I tried things others have recommended to no effect.
LDN isn't a cure for me... just another 10% in the tank.
LDN isn't a cure for me... just another 10% in the tank.
If it's serious to the point you don't know if you can keep the car going straight, how can you guarantee you can stop or react in other ways in an emergency? I don't see how this is OK, you shouldn't be driving.
> There are different regulations about driving with certain health conditions based on where you live. For example, South Carolina and Utah, USA do not have any stipulations about driving with a vestibular condition. However, US federal law requires that you stop driving until any vertigo attacks are controlled and well regulated.
https://vestibular.org/blog/should-you-drive-with-a-vestibul...