Show HN: I built a knife steel comparison tool(new.knife.day)
new.knife.day
Show HN: I built a knife steel comparison tool
https://new.knife.day/blog/knife-steel-comparisons/all
88 comments
Any plans to add Japanese steels?
https://knivescombined.com/pages/steels
https://knivescombined.com/pages/steels
Yep. I see VG10, which some Japanese knives use. But I wanted to compare it to SG2, which is not listed. Nor AUS10.
And also the non-stainless Carbon steels.
And also the non-stainless Carbon steels.
yes I plan to add these
Tangent: I had a decent benchmade griptilian folding knife for the last 10 or so years. Wasn’t the sharpest knife but I loved the form factor, grip, etc.
I left it on the bed cover of my truck the other day while unboxing some towing equipment in a parking lot and took off accidentally.
Looked at Amazon to replace it and they’re going for $200+ now. Is this just Amazon tax? Tarrifs? Something else? No way in hell I paid that for it initially. It was probably $50! It’s listed at $160 on their website right now.
Why?!?! It’s a simple plastic body and a small piece of steel. Make this make sense.
I left it on the bed cover of my truck the other day while unboxing some towing equipment in a parking lot and took off accidentally.
Looked at Amazon to replace it and they’re going for $200+ now. Is this just Amazon tax? Tarrifs? Something else? No way in hell I paid that for it initially. It was probably $50! It’s listed at $160 on their website right now.
Why?!?! It’s a simple plastic body and a small piece of steel. Make this make sense.
I feel like the prices have gone up for years & years. I thought my Spyderco was a cheaper alternative to Benchmade, but now they're basically all $100+. $65 is now $130 or so.
My guess is collectors that'll buy at almost any price. Some knives from the '80s that used to cost $25 are simply eye-watering today (well past 10x).
My guess is collectors that'll buy at almost any price. Some knives from the '80s that used to cost $25 are simply eye-watering today (well past 10x).
Look up the Ritter Houge, or something like that. I think it's a less (maybe) expensive version of the griptilian from the same designer. I think. Could be wrong.
Houge's the brand. RSK-Mk1 is the model (Ritter Survival Knife). Sold exclusively at https://knifeworks.com/dr/
Benchmade used to make a variant of their Griptilian that he designed (the "Ritter Grip", and when they discontinued it, Hogue stepped up (proceeds go to support Ritter's https://kniferights.org/ organization)
Benchmade used to make a variant of their Griptilian that he designed (the "Ritter Grip", and when they discontinued it, Hogue stepped up (proceeds go to support Ritter's https://kniferights.org/ organization)
Yikes those are all extremely expensive for what they are.
Here's a parametric search for other knives that are made in the USA out of the same materials. They're all expensive. Fortunately, there are very good pocket knives for under a third the price from brands like Civivi, Vosteed, and CJRB if those specific points aren't critical.
https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Pocket-Knives--45?sort=price_as...
https://www.bladehq.com/cat--Pocket-Knives--45?sort=price_as...
Television, survival, bushcraft, social media.
It used to be knowledge based survival skills, but today it is all gear based survival skills. Prices have gone crazy.
It used to be knowledge based survival skills, but today it is all gear based survival skills. Prices have gone crazy.
Benchmade has raised their prices over the years to the point where it's hard to justify most of their knives unless you're a big fan with disposable income.
> Wasn’t the sharpest knife
Sharpness is a product of sharpening, which should be done regularly for good results.
Benchmade's pricing is based on irrational customers being willing to pay premium prices for knives that really aren't competitive anymore.
If you want a replacement knife that's very similar for a more reasonable price, consider the crossbar lock version of the Vosteed Raccoon.
Sharpness is a product of sharpening, which should be done regularly for good results.
Benchmade's pricing is based on irrational customers being willing to pay premium prices for knives that really aren't competitive anymore.
If you want a replacement knife that's very similar for a more reasonable price, consider the crossbar lock version of the Vosteed Raccoon.
> Sharpness is a product of sharpening, which should be done regularly for good results.
How often? I have a Japanese santoku knife made of VG10 and I really like it when I get it razor sharp. But is it normal that it loses that after a few weeks? Do I really need to keep sharpening on a whetstone that often? I cut vegetables almost every single day.
How often? I have a Japanese santoku knife made of VG10 and I really like it when I get it razor sharp. But is it normal that it loses that after a few weeks? Do I really need to keep sharpening on a whetstone that often? I cut vegetables almost every single day.
Knives should be sharpened when they no longer cut as effectively as the user would like. Several weeks of daily use with no maintenance is probably longer than I would go, but I do not know your knife.
It's not necessary to use a whetstone that often though. My preference is a leather strop with a fine (under 1 micron; I use 0.25) diamond paste on it, and it usually only takes a few strokes (around five) per side to restore my gyuto to performance I'm happy with. The duller I let it get, the more time it takes to restore.
It's not necessary to use a whetstone that often though. My preference is a leather strop with a fine (under 1 micron; I use 0.25) diamond paste on it, and it usually only takes a few strokes (around five) per side to restore my gyuto to performance I'm happy with. The duller I let it get, the more time it takes to restore.
Wow, knife steel geek myself here (and avid reader of KnifeSteelNerds) and I have been wishing this existed for a long time. Awesome work, thank you!
Would you be able to add Damacore DC18N?
Would you be able to add Damacore DC18N?
Awesome
The graph you chose feels useless to me. It seems like you built this without a target use case, neither practical nor academic.
are you interested in steels? what do you think would be better?
When I’m buying a new knife I have a temporary interest in steels. For those times I might want something that guides me through whether there’s a steel that is better for my use case than Magnacut. Last time I was into researching steels I made my own spreadsheet.
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It seems like the steel data comes from larger database on hardness/toughness/corrosion? Can you say where that data is coming from or if it's your own measurements? If you could show the data (eg HRC) that supports the radar chart it would be easier for a purchaser to know if their steel actually meets the purported performance after purchase.
I guess what confuses me most is that heat treatment/hardening seem crucial to understanding how a knife is going to perform, but that seems left out. It's even possible to have a great treatment on a blank and screw it up (overheat) when doing the initial edge shaping. Furthermore, the sharpening angle of a blade edge seems to greatly affect edge retention especially for softer steels. It would be great to know what angles different (properly hardened) steels could reasonably support. That's something the user can control after purchase.
I guess what confuses me most is that heat treatment/hardening seem crucial to understanding how a knife is going to perform, but that seems left out. It's even possible to have a great treatment on a blank and screw it up (overheat) when doing the initial edge shaping. Furthermore, the sharpening angle of a blade edge seems to greatly affect edge retention especially for softer steels. It would be great to know what angles different (properly hardened) steels could reasonably support. That's something the user can control after purchase.
Looking at some of the comparisons, the data appears to be (I could be wrong) scraped from this article by Dr Larrin Thomas based on his personal research and testing, possibly also including some of the other articles on his website: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/knife-steels-rated-by...
There are some mismatches, such as OP rating M2's edge retention at 6 while Thomas rates it at 4.
I would be interested to see all the steel types ranked by total surface area within the polygon.
I went through manually and these appear to have the highest volumes:
H1
H2
CPM Magnacut
Sandvik 12C27
Interestingly they are all weak on Edge Retention.
H1
H2
CPM Magnacut
Sandvik 12C27
Interestingly they are all weak on Edge Retention.
Calling magnacut weak on edge retention is an... interesting take. It's not record setting, but it's far, far above the other 3 you listed.
The data this site is using really seems questionable.
The data this site is using really seems questionable.
Magnacut is given the same rating as D2, 3V, VG10, and "440" (presumabbly 440C). Elmax, M2, and Cruwear are rated higher.
CATRA testing by Magnacut's creator[0] suggests D2, 3V, VG10, and 440C should have a lower rating than Magnacut for edge retention, while Elmax, M2, and Cruwear should be the same. 5 probably is a reasonable rating for Magnacut though when Maxamet is 10.
[0] https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/202...
CATRA testing by Magnacut's creator[0] suggests D2, 3V, VG10, and 440C should have a lower rating than Magnacut for edge retention, while Elmax, M2, and Cruwear should be the same. 5 probably is a reasonable rating for Magnacut though when Maxamet is 10.
[0] https://i2.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/202...
good idea... i could add that
Impressive work. I've always wondered how it's possible to "decompile" steel types. For example, one of my everyday use knives is a Kabelmesser pocket knife (WW2). It's probably from Solingen, although there's no logo on it.
I really like it because of the high-carbon steel, but I have no idea what specific type of steel was used, as I don't see much of such steel these days.
I really like it because of the high-carbon steel, but I have no idea what specific type of steel was used, as I don't see much of such steel these days.
It's not hard, just expensive. You need to pay a lab to do it, and the testing is very much destructive most of the time.
XRF might be able to non-destructively tell you the alloy.
The magic spice gun was my first thought as well, but they struggle to measure lighter elements like carbon.
Anyone else like ceramic knives? I have a couple paring knives.
Super sharp but very brittle.
Super sharp but very brittle.
Yeah, ceramic knives get a bad rap but they have their uses.
I have a lot of knives (and have made my own) and I love ceramic knives. For those that don't know, ceramic knives are sintered zirconium dioxide; they are super sharp and retain sharpness far better than steel, but are brittle and not practical to resharpen. As a result your average knife enthusiast tries them, sees that they chip easily and can't be fixed, and condemn them as throwaway garbage.
The secret is to use them for an application where they'll never hit something hard or rough. For example, using them where they might hit metal or bone, they'll eventually chip - possibly into your food! Or using them on a cutting board, they'll dull, although slower than steel. But use them on soft objects only and they'll last virtually forever.
They are very useful for cutting cardboard boxes open, or tape, or plastic. You can use the same ceramic knife for 1000+ cardboard boxes and it will cut like a hot knife in butter, while the same steel knife would need to be resharpened several times for the same smoothness.
Oh, and they are non-browning for food like apples or avocados, which is nice. The browning you see in cut foods is caused partly by polyphenol oxidase, an enzyme that can be activated by iron and other metals. Steel knives shed tiny amounts of iron into food as they cut, so if you use a ceramic knife, your food will look fresher for longer.
I have a lot of knives (and have made my own) and I love ceramic knives. For those that don't know, ceramic knives are sintered zirconium dioxide; they are super sharp and retain sharpness far better than steel, but are brittle and not practical to resharpen. As a result your average knife enthusiast tries them, sees that they chip easily and can't be fixed, and condemn them as throwaway garbage.
The secret is to use them for an application where they'll never hit something hard or rough. For example, using them where they might hit metal or bone, they'll eventually chip - possibly into your food! Or using them on a cutting board, they'll dull, although slower than steel. But use them on soft objects only and they'll last virtually forever.
They are very useful for cutting cardboard boxes open, or tape, or plastic. You can use the same ceramic knife for 1000+ cardboard boxes and it will cut like a hot knife in butter, while the same steel knife would need to be resharpened several times for the same smoothness.
Oh, and they are non-browning for food like apples or avocados, which is nice. The browning you see in cut foods is caused partly by polyphenol oxidase, an enzyme that can be activated by iron and other metals. Steel knives shed tiny amounts of iron into food as they cut, so if you use a ceramic knife, your food will look fresher for longer.
We received a two knife set as a wedding gift many years ago. This was well before they were common, and it was quite a nice gift. I strongly agree with the "don't buy a knife you can't sharpen" point that folks often make, but ceramic knives do have their niche.
They're great for minimizing oxidation along cuts. E.g. cutting iceberg lettuce and avoiding having the edges turn brown. They're also very lightweight, which is nice for some things, while being bad for others. I'd never use them the way I do my workhorse chef's knife, but there are certainly tasks I prefer them for. Dicing lots of hot peppers comes to mind, oddly enough, as does some very precise and relatively tedious knifework like making very even matchstick cuts for carrots/radishes/etc (the large one has a very wide blade, which is great for this, and is lightweight enough to reduce fatigue).
Overall, I can see why folks like them. It's not really the "no need to sharpen" point. It's more the "lightweight and very thin" part, along with a non-oxidizing edge.
I'm still kind of opposed on principle, I suppose, but I do use the set we were gifted fairly often, despite having some very nice steel cutlery that I'm very fond of. I can't blame anyone for buying them now that they're priced more reasonably than they used to be.
They're great for minimizing oxidation along cuts. E.g. cutting iceberg lettuce and avoiding having the edges turn brown. They're also very lightweight, which is nice for some things, while being bad for others. I'd never use them the way I do my workhorse chef's knife, but there are certainly tasks I prefer them for. Dicing lots of hot peppers comes to mind, oddly enough, as does some very precise and relatively tedious knifework like making very even matchstick cuts for carrots/radishes/etc (the large one has a very wide blade, which is great for this, and is lightweight enough to reduce fatigue).
Overall, I can see why folks like them. It's not really the "no need to sharpen" point. It's more the "lightweight and very thin" part, along with a non-oxidizing edge.
I'm still kind of opposed on principle, I suppose, but I do use the set we were gifted fairly often, despite having some very nice steel cutlery that I'm very fond of. I can't blame anyone for buying them now that they're priced more reasonably than they used to be.
ancient shefield steel knives are thin, and will take an edge that cuts kevlar like cotton.....if needed, but slices ripe tomatoes, etc, perfectly.
Paired with an arcansaw green stone they come to an edge fast, perhaps not quite as sharp as ceramic, as I only toyed with one ceramic blade, but in the same range
but I find sharpening fun and meditive, so
I haven't used one for food yet, but I picked up a cheap ($35) kyocera as a workshop knife and it's been great; dropped it on concrete and knocked a 1mm² chunk off of the very tip, but the edge is still great after six months of casual abuse (mostly cardboard, rubber, and plastics.)
I would never buy a knife you can’t sharpen. Nothing stays sharp forever.
They can be sharpened to a very sharp edge that they retain for a long long time.
In my vague home use, brittleness leading to chipping is more of an issue.
In my vague home use, brittleness leading to chipping is more of an issue.
Leans too far into disposable culture. Even a solid steel knife and a cheap electric sharpener will last longer.
And you can sharpen all your paring knives etc.
And you can sharpen all your paring knives etc.
ceramic knives are great, but they are basically disposable because once they chip (they will) its incredibly difficult to sharpen them again.
*knives
Also - paring knife, not pairing knife.
Also - paring knife, not pairing knife.
As a knife-maker, may I request 80CRV, 1084, and 1075? They're very commonly-used steel grades in knives.
Also, 440 has a number of grades.
Cool tool!
EDIT: It might also be interesting to point out the manganese levels, and whether the steel is a deep- or shallow-hardening steel. Those factors help indicate whether the steel will form a hamon or not.
Also, 440 has a number of grades.
Cool tool!
EDIT: It might also be interesting to point out the manganese levels, and whether the steel is a deep- or shallow-hardening steel. Those factors help indicate whether the steel will form a hamon or not.
Also maybe the steel that Wusthof uses, whatever it is. They don't seem to tell you what is, though.
Wüsthof prints the steel it uses on the blades of many of its knives: X50CrMoV15[0], which is also called 1.4116 and 5Cr15MoV.
It's not in OP's tool, but this article[1] by metallurgist Larrin Thomas includes it. His ratings are 2.5 for toughness, 2.5 for wear resistance, and 8 for corrosion resistance. It is a bad steel for any kind of knife and especially bad at Wüsthof's prices.
[0] https://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=X50CrMoV...
[1] https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/knife-steels-rated-by...
It's not in OP's tool, but this article[1] by metallurgist Larrin Thomas includes it. His ratings are 2.5 for toughness, 2.5 for wear resistance, and 8 for corrosion resistance. It is a bad steel for any kind of knife and especially bad at Wüsthof's prices.
[0] https://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=X50CrMoV...
[1] https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/knife-steels-rated-by...
It's very likely 8cr13mov, which is listed
yes, I will add this info.
thanks for the feedback
thanks for the feedback
> [Maybe attach the screenshot here if HN allows, or link to it]
I think the AI intended for you to edit out this part?
I think the AI intended for you to edit out this part?
Shhh, I like those placeholders as dead giveaways that content was AI-produced. Don’t call too much attention to them or we’ll lose this way of identifying slop :)
I'm fine with ai slop if it provides value, the value here being questionable, because now I don't know if the values in the comparison are fact checked or hallucinations.
I suspect they're hallucinated. As a random spot check: https://new.knife.day/item/spyderco-paramilitary-2
"The Spyderco Paramilitary 2 is a tactical knife with a 3.44 inch blade. The knife is made in USA of CPM S35VN steel."
It's a real knife, and the blade length checks out (to two significant figures), but the manufacturer spec sheet says S45VN steel. Also the actual name is "Para Military® 2".
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C81GS2/2090
"The Spyderco Paramilitary 2 is a tactical knife with a 3.44 inch blade. The knife is made in USA of CPM S35VN steel."
It's a real knife, and the blade length checks out (to two significant figures), but the manufacturer spec sheet says S45VN steel. Also the actual name is "Para Military® 2".
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C81GS2/2090
A problem with choosing that specific knife for a spot check is that it has been made in many different steels in various special editions, sprint runs, and dealer exclusives. Here's one in S35VN:
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C81GBNBK2/Para-Mili...
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C81GBNBK2/Para-Mili...
this data is mostly scraped from a few large knife retailers, so should be accurate.
It's unusual for a large retailer to not use the official name of a product
Not in this particular case. Out of the 5 knife retailers I just checked, 4 use Paramilitary in their listings. Only one included a space.
I thought, maybe OP had it in their draft for long and directly pasted it.
(We've edited that bit out from the text above now.)
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Hmm, it feels like there'd be some interesting crossover between this and https://seattleultrasonics.com/pages/knife-database but while the "Quantified Knife Project" has a lot of numeric test-result data, it looks like they only have "marketing names" for the steel used (if you click through the links in the "model name" column for each knife.)
(Ah, the raw data is available https://github.com/seattleultrasonics/Quantified-Knife-Proje... has a "Blades" tab which might be enough to correlate.)
(Ah, the raw data is available https://github.com/seattleultrasonics/Quantified-Knife-Proje... has a "Blades" tab which might be enough to correlate.)
thanks for sharing, i will check these out... previously was unaware of these
[deleted]
I looked through most of the charts, and I it seems like you cannot get the best of two worlds. Can you get good edge retention, ease of sharpening and toughness at the same time?
It would be nice with an example on how knife steel properties work. I assume there are balanced tradeoffs.
It would be nice with an example on how knife steel properties work. I assume there are balanced tradeoffs.
"Edge retention" is mostly achieved through high abrasion resistance. Sharpening is removing material by abrasion until the edge has a small radius, so ease of sharpening is mostly achieved through low abrasion resistance.
Being soft or brittle can also make forming a sharp edge difficult, requiring very light pressure in the final phases of sharpening to remove or avoid creating a burr in the case of softness, and to avoid chipping in the case of brittleness.
Of course all of these properties are affected by the heat treatment, which is often more important to the performance of the knife than the composition of the steel.
Being soft or brittle can also make forming a sharp edge difficult, requiring very light pressure in the final phases of sharpening to remove or avoid creating a burr in the case of softness, and to avoid chipping in the case of brittleness.
Of course all of these properties are affected by the heat treatment, which is often more important to the performance of the knife than the composition of the steel.
You don't get to have everything.
The point of a graph like that in this case is merely so that you can choose which aspects you need for a given application.
You decide which aspects you can live without to get the ones you can not live without, for a given application. Because it's either that or have a dull knife, or a broken knife, or a rusty knife, etc.
My favorite kitchen knife is tough and sharp but rusts easily. It's ok since it doesn't live in a tackle box on a boat, or in my leatherman.
At best you can have "good all-season tire" which at least doesn't completely suck to the point of failuire in any dimension but doesn't excell in any either.
The point of a graph like that in this case is merely so that you can choose which aspects you need for a given application.
You decide which aspects you can live without to get the ones you can not live without, for a given application. Because it's either that or have a dull knife, or a broken knife, or a rusty knife, etc.
My favorite kitchen knife is tough and sharp but rusts easily. It's ok since it doesn't live in a tackle box on a boat, or in my leatherman.
At best you can have "good all-season tire" which at least doesn't completely suck to the point of failuire in any dimension but doesn't excell in any either.
that is correct, edge retention, ease of sharpening and toughness usually come at a trade off to one another.
A harder blade is more brittle (less tough) and keeps its edge longer... but is also more difficult to sharpen once it gets dull.... generally speaking.
A harder blade is more brittle (less tough) and keeps its edge longer... but is also more difficult to sharpen once it gets dull.... generally speaking.
H1 and H2 seems to fare well on all properties except edge retention.
I would probably be interested in a knife that has high corrosion resistance, toughness, and edge retention; ease of sharpening might not be that much of a concern, personally, but correct me if I am wrong and it actually matters despite toughness.
I would probably be interested in a knife that has high corrosion resistance, toughness, and edge retention; ease of sharpening might not be that much of a concern, personally, but correct me if I am wrong and it actually matters despite toughness.
Cruwear! from my practical testing, it's been the best I've tried. From the tool, it represents quite well.
comparison is kind of fun; i'd recommend keeping static colors per selection though (when toggling items, the change to colors of items already in the graph made it a bit annoying to decipher)
So what do knife people think about outdoors55?
Obligatory link to the amazing blog about knife sharpness:
https://scienceofsharp.com/
https://scienceofsharp.com/
amazing, thank you
Cool tool. I recently picked up a White River knife in CPM Magnacut. I could have used this tool when I was shopping around, but it looks like I landed on a good knife steel anyways. I haven't used it enougj yet to work on sharpening it though, so we'll see how that goes.
Nice, requesting boron steel be added.
more interesting if it included which steels play nice when bieng forge welded together, to which I can suggest plain carbon steel in the form of a used horse shoe, and 5160 in the form of a vdub coil spring.
Used air ride springs yield large bilets of 5160, that I use for tongs and die blanks, stiff stuff
coil springs from trains are another large diameter stock, and torsion bars are also sometimes large, round, AND , pre tapered if someone is dreaming of a claymore to wave around.
the problem with a lot of the more exotic steels is that they are "hot short" meaning that they will litteraly just crumble and fall apart if forged at too high a heat, and at too low a heat, they are impossible to forge, so heat controll must be good, and there is no time to waste either
as each heat does some hurt to the metal, so aprenticing with cheap but good spring steel is the way to go.On the flip side there are some steels that are "cold short" and cant be touched
durring a dull or black heat.
working with strikers is good fun, and you can move a lot of metal with 4 people, one with a 4 pound hand hammer, and three with 12 pound sledges, draw out blanks in a jiffy
where <noscript>??
Where is the data from? How can I trust it? All of it looks LLM generated? Some of the plots and data from the comparisons seem to be missing or jumbled?
> All of it looks LLM generated?
Yeah, it's padded out to an absurd degree in the formulaic way that it does.
Yeah, it's padded out to an absurd degree in the formulaic way that it does.
It's obviously a SEO farm filled with pure AI slop. Can't believe it made it to the front page here.
"In this comprehensive guide, we compare metal A vs metal B" with 100s of similar articles for every unique permutation of metals. Yeah right someone did that comparision... "Best pocket knife", "Best filet knife", Best Chef knife", bla blabla
"In this comprehensive guide, we compare metal A vs metal B" with 100s of similar articles for every unique permutation of metals. Yeah right someone did that comparision... "Best pocket knife", "Best filet knife", Best Chef knife", bla blabla
I'm a bit of a knife steel geek and got tired of juggling tabs to compare stats. So, I built this tool: https://new.knife.day/blog/knife-steel-comparisons/all
It lets you pick steels (like the ones in the screenshot) and see a radar chart comparing their edge retention, toughness, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening on a simple 1-10 scale.
It's already been super handy for me, and I thought fellow knife/metallurgy enthusiasts here might find it useful too.
Would love to hear your thoughts or any steel requests!
Cheers!