'A black hole': New graduates discover a dismal job market(nbcnews.com)
nbcnews.com
'A black hole': New graduates discover a dismal job market
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/job-market-report-college-student-graduates-ai-trump-tariffs-rcna221693
123 comments
Congrats on your new gig.
About the AI thing, based on my readings, I feel that more and more dev and companies are realizing the true utility value of AI programming tools after the hype, i.e. it's useful but not going to replace programmers completely.
The signal did took sometime to get transmitted to the company's leadership, but a year is enough time for most smart companies to hear it loud and clear.
About the AI thing, based on my readings, I feel that more and more dev and companies are realizing the true utility value of AI programming tools after the hype, i.e. it's useful but not going to replace programmers completely.
The signal did took sometime to get transmitted to the company's leadership, but a year is enough time for most smart companies to hear it loud and clear.
Thank you, and yeah agreed that, for now, it's not replacing everyone.
Referrals are the key to non-FAANG jobs. I also have over 10 years of experience, with six of those years spent working under the same supervisor across two different jobs. Four of those years were two different jobs, thanks to strong referrals from my previous boss and the one I worked with for 6 years before that.
I fumbled a bit early in my career and burned some bridges, but luckily, I smartened up after the first 2ish years.
I figured if I have 10+ years of experience and do not have at least 5-10 people I can call up to ask for a job who've worked with me in the past, I've screwed up. Investing in relationships has been the key job security hack for me (also a completely average React dev who happens to know an above-average amount about video and webrtc).
I fumbled a bit early in my career and burned some bridges, but luckily, I smartened up after the first 2ish years.
I figured if I have 10+ years of experience and do not have at least 5-10 people I can call up to ask for a job who've worked with me in the past, I've screwed up. Investing in relationships has been the key job security hack for me (also a completely average React dev who happens to know an above-average amount about video and webrtc).
> Investing in relationships has been the key job security hack for me
Connections frequently take precedence over skill! It's hard to determine skill through a piece of paper and some coding exercises under pressure. But a connection give a good signal on that and truth is almost no job requires maximizing skills (exception is at the bleeding edge and even there not always). It's also a signal about soft skills, trusting the connection isn't going to suggest someone that's difficult to work with.
I think it's easy to miss because we're often so data focused and because we want meritocracy. But the truth is you can't measure everything and not everything that's measurable is easy to measure. It takes more work to determine if some junior from a no name school is better than someone from a prestigious school. By connections make that easier to determine just like the prestige of the school serves as a signal, even if noisy. I think it's important to remember how this compounds too. Like your first year undergrad at Stanford is probably at a very similar experience level to a first year at a community college. But that gap widens and the gap isn't only due to coursework and lecturers.
Yeah, very helpful to have a solid network like that. My other job offer was from a previous manager wanting to recruit me.
But yeah, tough out there to land your first job right now.
But yeah, tough out there to land your first job right now.
Harness, or train? When a junior uses AI the junior learns. When a senior uses an AI the AI learns. Maybe the AI owners are harnessing experienced devs to train their replacements.
I think this generalizes poorly. A junior can use an AI to learn (just like anyone) but a junior is also much more likely to feel the pressures of getting things done quickly and not taking the time to understand what was written. A junior is also less likely to be about to identify when the AI makes errors as well as when accurately describe the demand to the machine.
I see people refer to AI as "training wheels" but even training wheels force you to learn balance while riding a bike. They just give you more flexibility in how much you can lean. But AI, it is easy to just accept the answers and treat it like a black box. There is no need to practice the actual skills of a developer: designing algorithms, analyzing, testing (designing tests!), reading code deep with a code base and learning how it connects, interpreting asks and determining appropriate ways to solve those problems (a big part of experience is having fewer unknown unknowns. Known unknowns are incredibly valuable)
While all that is possible with AI, I don't see it happen often in practice due to other pressures. And with AI it seems there's just become increasing pressures to get more done faster. But a junior still needs time to learn. We all do, but juniors need more and have less experience and ability to find this time
I see people refer to AI as "training wheels" but even training wheels force you to learn balance while riding a bike. They just give you more flexibility in how much you can lean. But AI, it is easy to just accept the answers and treat it like a black box. There is no need to practice the actual skills of a developer: designing algorithms, analyzing, testing (designing tests!), reading code deep with a code base and learning how it connects, interpreting asks and determining appropriate ways to solve those problems (a big part of experience is having fewer unknown unknowns. Known unknowns are incredibly valuable)
While all that is possible with AI, I don't see it happen often in practice due to other pressures. And with AI it seems there's just become increasing pressures to get more done faster. But a junior still needs time to learn. We all do, but juniors need more and have less experience and ability to find this time
“AI”—assuming you mean LLM-based coding assistants—don’t learn. All they have is the context you give them. Seniors may learn how to manipulate that context to get better results over time, but that’s not the AI learning in any meaningful sense.
The LLM answers your accept/reject are used as training data
That usually isn't true if you're using the agent tools aimed at companies. They are explicit about what is and isn't used for training.
That kinda made sense except for "When a junior uses AI the junior learns"
I think people have exceedingly high-expectations due to make-believe social-media content.
What I see amongst all the people is that both skill and the quality of work decreasing. Which is why, arguably, AI _is_ taking over entry-level jobs.
High percentage of new generation spend their time on TikTok & Instagram, watching reels & stories of some popular/famous people, who tend to have some money (high chance of inheritance or rich family), posing as a "regular" person on the street.
Take this quote for example; “I told myself, by 26, I’d have my own house, I’d have my own family, I’d have my nice little luxury car. That hasn’t happened.”
This is an unrealistic by definition. I don't know what sort of thing a person needs to smoke to come to a conclusion that having _all_ of these, including a luxury car, is a norm for a 26 year old. By definition, if everyone has that _luxury car_, that car would not be a luxury item in the first place. Unless a person inherits a house, it would take at least 10 years (probably 30) to fully own one. One can probably buy/lease a car, probably second hand, but that's unlikely to be a `luxury` vehicle.
Another point is, while some people had adequate pictures/images posted, some did not even bother to put an effort to give a proper picture to the newspaper article. I am not a "wear a suit" person at all, but this attitude clearly shows how much care certain people put into actual work. Would you hire a such person who does sloppy job even at the job application? I would certainly not.
What I see amongst all the people is that both skill and the quality of work decreasing. Which is why, arguably, AI _is_ taking over entry-level jobs.
High percentage of new generation spend their time on TikTok & Instagram, watching reels & stories of some popular/famous people, who tend to have some money (high chance of inheritance or rich family), posing as a "regular" person on the street.
Take this quote for example; “I told myself, by 26, I’d have my own house, I’d have my own family, I’d have my nice little luxury car. That hasn’t happened.”
This is an unrealistic by definition. I don't know what sort of thing a person needs to smoke to come to a conclusion that having _all_ of these, including a luxury car, is a norm for a 26 year old. By definition, if everyone has that _luxury car_, that car would not be a luxury item in the first place. Unless a person inherits a house, it would take at least 10 years (probably 30) to fully own one. One can probably buy/lease a car, probably second hand, but that's unlikely to be a `luxury` vehicle.
Another point is, while some people had adequate pictures/images posted, some did not even bother to put an effort to give a proper picture to the newspaper article. I am not a "wear a suit" person at all, but this attitude clearly shows how much care certain people put into actual work. Would you hire a such person who does sloppy job even at the job application? I would certainly not.
It's not about owning an house, having kids, or a luxury car. Most people just want to work with dignity, a mean to reach their workplace wether by car or a decent public transport, affording to live in a place you can call your home, in which maybe one day you could raise a family if you find a person that shares your view of life. This is not granted at all, for most people this is just not the reality and actually it's getting worse year by year.
The thing is that someone has to clean the toilets, sweep the floors, maintain that public transportation, or have the skills to fix up your car, etc. Dignity means a lot of things to different people. If you live in a society that enables you to work with dignity, it's because there is a lot of undignified labor sustaining it. The things we wish for don't just magically happen. It takes a lot of undignified human labor to get there. Now let's say you automated all undignified labor. Now your competition increased a hundred fold, greatly lowering your odds if finding dignified labor.
And the world churns.
And the world churns.
I don't see that a contradictory. A job cleaning toilets or repairing cars can be dignified if you get paid a living wage, have reasonable working conditions, and aren't mistreated by your company.
Ask recent grads what they would think about a janitor position for $55,000 a year (average U.S. living wage). My guess is the percent who would be happy with that? < 1%.
I don't have a degree. I'd love a cleaning job I can actually live on. The last one I had worked the shit out of me and paid peanuts. See: the problem.
Not everybody goes to University, what example is that one?
A lot of people would be happy to take a janitor position if it allowed to live decently, without living in fear for your future.
Um 60% of americans go to college. We cant all have cushy office jobs with 3 hours of real work a day.
Someone has to be the janitor, the checkout clerk, the garbage collector, the factory worker, etc. etc. etc.
Someone has to be the janitor, the checkout clerk, the garbage collector, the factory worker, etc. etc. etc.
This is so defeatist. You may need these roles filled, but you can pay much better for them and give them more respect socially. If you automate them, you can implement massive redistributionary schemes to ensure that benefits people. It’s a lack of political will, not possibility.
It's not much to do with the money. It is just work most people will be unwilling to do.
The number of college graduates who will willingly work in housekeeping or dusty construction sites even for 100K USD a year will be next to zero.
People will not downgrade their quality of life compared to what they grew up with. And you're lying to yourself if you think a construction site is as comfy as the Meta HQ.
The number of college graduates who will willingly work in housekeeping or dusty construction sites even for 100K USD a year will be next to zero.
People will not downgrade their quality of life compared to what they grew up with. And you're lying to yourself if you think a construction site is as comfy as the Meta HQ.
> but you can pay much better
Yes
> for them and give them more respect socially
How? You can't dictate social behavior.
Yes
> for them and give them more respect socially
How? You can't dictate social behavior.
I think any solution to this whole constellation of problems with the economy will have to be extralegal first anyways. Social movements and the like.
You can't dictate it, but you can influence it.
Imagine if we teach from primary school student to clean their own classroom and bathroom so that everyone must do at least once every x days/week, it think it would help reconsider how we view this jobs. This is just an example, but I think there are plenty of ways for a government to incentivize desirable behavior (even social).
Imagine if we teach from primary school student to clean their own classroom and bathroom so that everyone must do at least once every x days/week, it think it would help reconsider how we view this jobs. This is just an example, but I think there are plenty of ways for a government to incentivize desirable behavior (even social).
You're going to get parents with torches and pitchforks if you ask primary students to clean the school bathrooms....
In the baby boom generation it was pretty normal to be married, have a (small) house, and a kid or two by 26-30 or so. From the families I know of that era, usually they had a lower end car and probably just one for the family. This seems pretty uncommon for the zoomers I know.
I simply don’t believe this is as hard as everyone makes it out to be. I still think it’s an issue of heightened expectations.
There is a strong belief that everyone should be able to afford a place to live, alone, in some place with a convenient location (downtown or within walking distance of transit), and then after a few years you should be able to buy a house.
When I grew up, I had multiple roommates, and we’d carpool whenever possible. I scrimped and saved pretty hard to get a down payment saved up. By my day’s standards, it wasn’t crazy to cook 99% of your own food, brew all your coffee at home or the office (hopefully free), get any free food you can possibly convince your employer to give you, and have one TV everyone fights over. My dad made his own “furniture” (until my mom moved in and smacked some sense into him…). My mom grew up sleeping in an hot attic with 3 siblings, because the other 5 siblings took up all available rooms.
I’m not saying life shouldn’t improve each generation, but I think people are expecting it to improve way faster than it actually is.
There is a strong belief that everyone should be able to afford a place to live, alone, in some place with a convenient location (downtown or within walking distance of transit), and then after a few years you should be able to buy a house.
When I grew up, I had multiple roommates, and we’d carpool whenever possible. I scrimped and saved pretty hard to get a down payment saved up. By my day’s standards, it wasn’t crazy to cook 99% of your own food, brew all your coffee at home or the office (hopefully free), get any free food you can possibly convince your employer to give you, and have one TV everyone fights over. My dad made his own “furniture” (until my mom moved in and smacked some sense into him…). My mom grew up sleeping in an hot attic with 3 siblings, because the other 5 siblings took up all available rooms.
I’m not saying life shouldn’t improve each generation, but I think people are expecting it to improve way faster than it actually is.
Expectations are a factor, but also practicality. Back then you could get a decent job with a high school education or even less. If you had a good job, you could afford a house and a car with one income.
My uncle worked in the GM plant for many years, owned a nice house and a car and a bass boat and is comfortably retired. His wife never worked. I remember my aunt telling us that we shouldn’t get him books for Christmas presents because he couldn’t read very well.
Now to do this you need both parents working. They both need degrees that need paying off, and they need to live in a major metro area, because they both need to have good paying, specialized jobs. In the old days you might move to some little town so the dad could work at some factory, but now the mom has to also find a job in her specialty, so you need to be in a big city to find jobs for both of them within commuting distance.
In this context, everyone is bombarded with social media telling them that they should have fancy cars and houses and vacation in Bali, and they’re stretched to the breaking point and can’t have any kids.
My uncle worked in the GM plant for many years, owned a nice house and a car and a bass boat and is comfortably retired. His wife never worked. I remember my aunt telling us that we shouldn’t get him books for Christmas presents because he couldn’t read very well.
Now to do this you need both parents working. They both need degrees that need paying off, and they need to live in a major metro area, because they both need to have good paying, specialized jobs. In the old days you might move to some little town so the dad could work at some factory, but now the mom has to also find a job in her specialty, so you need to be in a big city to find jobs for both of them within commuting distance.
In this context, everyone is bombarded with social media telling them that they should have fancy cars and houses and vacation in Bali, and they’re stretched to the breaking point and can’t have any kids.
Autoworkers were not the norm. They had the strongest unions in the country, and were able to bargain for wages you couldn't get anywhere else. Their compensation was so good GM and Ford eventually went bankrupt, while Chrysler kind of disappeared.
I remember as a degreed electrical engineer making $35k when the average auto worker was making almost $80k. That's an aberration and could never have continued.
I remember as a degreed electrical engineer making $35k when the average auto worker was making almost $80k. That's an aberration and could never have continued.
The problem is you had to know someone that worked at GM to get a job at GM.
I had a family friend that was a union boss and after high school he got his son into GM. The family friend though wasn't going to get me in.
It was huge money at the time but it is also why GM stopped being competitive. I think the union boss friend retired at 45 or something completely ridiculous.
Of course he also had the nicest sports car, a huge boat, a huge house for the time.
I had a family friend that was a union boss and after high school he got his son into GM. The family friend though wasn't going to get me in.
It was huge money at the time but it is also why GM stopped being competitive. I think the union boss friend retired at 45 or something completely ridiculous.
Of course he also had the nicest sports car, a huge boat, a huge house for the time.
It doesn't matter how much you cook at home if wages haven't kept up with house prices (in australia anyway) - https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/the-charts-that-show-why...
It’s much the same in the US. The 2008 housing crisis contributed massively to our current housing shortage, zoning has gotten tricky, and while wages have grown by 20-30% since the 70s, housing prices have doubled.
The problem, it seems, is the stratification of classes expanding.
The problem, it seems, is the stratification of classes expanding.
In the US and probably in Australia at the top of the market. If housing prices crash like they did in 2008/2009, those charts will look a whole lot better.
It would need a very big crash, this is 50 years of price increases - https://www.realestatebusiness.com.au/industry/29004-50-year...
It's the much quoted - boomers pulling up the ladder after them in action. In the oz market new home buyers can't compete with investors that are pushing up prices.
It's the much quoted - boomers pulling up the ladder after them in action. In the oz market new home buyers can't compete with investors that are pushing up prices.
From the peak in 2006 to the lowest point in 2012 the US we saw housing price drops of close to 1/3.
In the areas that rose the most, they dropped 50%.
Based on that article you linked a 50% drop in the hottest markets wouldn’t bring price to income ratios down to 1975 but it would be kinda close.
Especially when you consider house sizes now vs then.
In the areas that rose the most, they dropped 50%.
Based on that article you linked a 50% drop in the hottest markets wouldn’t bring price to income ratios down to 1975 but it would be kinda close.
Especially when you consider house sizes now vs then.
Seems we're talking about different markets - the 2007/2008 crash didn't really change prices here, just slowed growth. There seems no crash in site here.
https://creditmediation.com.au/news/2024/10/10/the-rise-and-...
According to that article government stimulus propped up property prices.
Maybe there’s something unique to the Australian market that justifies 30 years of rising prices with no corrections.
Or maybe you’re overdue for a massive bust.
Maybe there’s something unique to the Australian market that justifies 30 years of rising prices with no corrections.
Or maybe you’re overdue for a massive bust.
I very recently did the math and with my CS job (and my wife's salary) in our early 40s (so both full time for at least 15 years) we could about now have bought the kind of house my parents bought when I was a kid - if it were the same price, just adjusted for inflation. But it's three times that adjusted cost. (Not the US, Germany)
Not sure that is a heightened expectation, you're just out of luck if you don't already have a house. And people in their twenties just have it even worse.
Not sure that is a heightened expectation, you're just out of luck if you don't already have a house. And people in their twenties just have it even worse.
Is this one of the most expensive places to live in the nation? As population grows globally, I would expect the most desirable homes to outpace others.
Anyways, I dunno how things work in other nations, and real estate is so different that it can be difficult to compare. For example, there are ways to "rent" a home in Korea for an absolutely massive one-time deposit that you eventually get back. England has 14 trillion box homes slammed together with a quarter inch strip of land in the back yard. Japan has people knocking down their home every single time they buy a new property.
I'm not far out of my 20s, and really, all I did on a SINGLE income was (like I said) scrimp and save. We lived in a cheapo apartment until we could save up for a down payment on a condo. That appreciated (as homes do), and now I have enough for a sizeable down payment on a house.
I also didn't take any special routes of privilege, really. I joined the military as a college dropout, served for 6 years, got experience in a career, then left and got a job in the real world. Much of my saving was done while in the military, because especially when you're new, you pay for nothing. Not food, not housing, not work clothing, not healthcare, etc.
Plus, when compared with median salaries, US housing is shockingly affordable.
Anyways, I dunno how things work in other nations, and real estate is so different that it can be difficult to compare. For example, there are ways to "rent" a home in Korea for an absolutely massive one-time deposit that you eventually get back. England has 14 trillion box homes slammed together with a quarter inch strip of land in the back yard. Japan has people knocking down their home every single time they buy a new property.
I'm not far out of my 20s, and really, all I did on a SINGLE income was (like I said) scrimp and save. We lived in a cheapo apartment until we could save up for a down payment on a condo. That appreciated (as homes do), and now I have enough for a sizeable down payment on a house.
I also didn't take any special routes of privilege, really. I joined the military as a college dropout, served for 6 years, got experience in a career, then left and got a job in the real world. Much of my saving was done while in the military, because especially when you're new, you pay for nothing. Not food, not housing, not work clothing, not healthcare, etc.
Plus, when compared with median salaries, US housing is shockingly affordable.
The portion of labor's share of all income has dropped precipitously since the 80's. This is a public policy failure.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W270RE1A156NBEA
The houses they lived in are illegal to build today.
The median age for first marriage is now 28 and 30 for women and men, respectively. It's generally a bad idea to buy a house if you're single, so a lot of the people who could buy in their 20s, don't.
Baby boomer here. Married at 28, rented until 30, first kid at 31. Lower end cars for the first couple of decades.
But let me talk about my parents. As a baby, my dad lived in a tent. (I believe it was brick walls with a tent roof, but I'm not certain of that.) They moved to an actual house, with an outhouse. (While he was still a child, they got indoor plumbing.)
My parents had their first child when my mom was 30. Before that, they both worked - both of them in tech, too! They rented until they were 39 and 36, when they bought their first house.
We look at the baby boomers and think that where we are now is abnormal. I wonder if instead, where we are now is normal, and the baby boomers were a temporary bit of extraordinarily good times.
But let me talk about my parents. As a baby, my dad lived in a tent. (I believe it was brick walls with a tent roof, but I'm not certain of that.) They moved to an actual house, with an outhouse. (While he was still a child, they got indoor plumbing.)
My parents had their first child when my mom was 30. Before that, they both worked - both of them in tech, too! They rented until they were 39 and 36, when they bought their first house.
We look at the baby boomers and think that where we are now is abnormal. I wonder if instead, where we are now is normal, and the baby boomers were a temporary bit of extraordinarily good times.
Owning a home at 26 wasn’t unusual in the 80s. It is now. The average age of a first time homebuyer in that time has slipped by nearly a decade.
Obvious selection bias… me and most of my peers had homes, spouses (though not necessarily married), and decent cars by our late 20s or early 30s (in the early 00s). Various white collar careers outside DC. It often did take two incomes to make it work, where my parents generation was largely single income.
It feels like that’s less common now.
Obvious selection bias… me and most of my peers had homes, spouses (though not necessarily married), and decent cars by our late 20s or early 30s (in the early 00s). Various white collar careers outside DC. It often did take two incomes to make it work, where my parents generation was largely single income.
It feels like that’s less common now.
I bet owning a home was also an actual priority back in the 80s. In fact I bet back in the 80s priorities were fewer and most people focused. Nowadays there are infinite priorities and "must haves" - many of which are way more accessible than saving 50%+ of your income towards a single purchase.
This is an unrealistic by definition.
No it isn't, this used to be the norm.
Unless a person inherits a house, it would take at least 10 years (probably 30) to fully own one.
Most people say 'have a house' in the sense of having owner's title of one, not of having their mortgage fully paid off. You're being ridiculously pedantic while ignoring the fact that it used to be massively easier for people to get socially established on a median kind of salary.
No it isn't, this used to be the norm.
Unless a person inherits a house, it would take at least 10 years (probably 30) to fully own one.
Most people say 'have a house' in the sense of having owner's title of one, not of having their mortgage fully paid off. You're being ridiculously pedantic while ignoring the fact that it used to be massively easier for people to get socially established on a median kind of salary.
No, that was never the norm. I'm amazed at the extent to which people are looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses. There were certainly groups of people in particular places that were able to start quickly, but the norm was young couples sharing a single old beater and just squeaking into a house in their late 20s.
This is really like people looking back on the 2020s and saying "It was normal back that to make $250k out of college."
This is really like people looking back on the 2020s and saying "It was normal back that to make $250k out of college."
The luxury car at 26 wasn’t normal at all. The vast majority of people would never have seriously considered a luxury car.
I make many times the median income, I’m married to a doctor, I live in a low cost of living area, and I’ve never owned a luxury car, nor do I intend to.
I make many times the median income, I’m married to a doctor, I live in a low cost of living area, and I’ve never owned a luxury car, nor do I intend to.
It's been unrealistic for long enough. I was 26 in 2009. I did so happen to own a "luxury" car, but it was $8000 used. I wasn't able to buy a house until I was 36. Part of that was due to moving around, which brought with it different opportunities.
I still can't afford a luxury car. I guess I could finance one but that seems like a serious waste of money. We've got this funny blind spot around cars in general as a status symbol. You can get a fun to drive, older, sports car. If you do a lot of long trips then a larger vehicle might be more comfortable than a luxury model. Not saying anything against them but don't aspire to owning something unless you actually want to be sitting in it.
I still can't afford a luxury car. I guess I could finance one but that seems like a serious waste of money. We've got this funny blind spot around cars in general as a status symbol. You can get a fun to drive, older, sports car. If you do a lot of long trips then a larger vehicle might be more comfortable than a luxury model. Not saying anything against them but don't aspire to owning something unless you actually want to be sitting in it.
Funny thing is I am in my thirties and both my grandparents, who started as lower middle class to lower class backgrounds had all those things by 26 except maybe the luxury car but one of my grand parents had a bulldozer around the same age. My grandparents house cost $4000 to build in 1956 on two acres of land. It is worth in the neighborhood of $300k today. In their fifties another grandparent had a private airplane and multiple properties and comercial real estate. My parents went to college and got cushy middle class jobs and had houses that they paid off early. My generation has had it harder. But mind you my grandfather on one side grew up in the depression and lived in a rural house without running water or electricity for a time. My feeling is these kind of opportunities for intelligent Americans to build a successful life and enter the upper middle class or upper class are structurally less available today. I think that it has to do with credentialism and inflation of the costs of living and litigiousness and over regulation.
In 1956 you could build a decent house for the price of a year's income. Not that it was paid off in a year. But now to build a house may be 2-3+ years income depending on the size.
In 1956 you could build a decent house for the price of a year's income. Not that it was paid off in a year. But now to build a house may be 2-3+ years income depending on the size.
There are exceedingly high expectations on the employer side as well. Companies want to do more with very less. Sometimes you can find really under paying job adverts like beginner positions asking people to know front end, back end and everything else under the sun. It is no wonder there are issues like Soham Parekh when everyone wants that 1% engineer.
It is not reasonable to accept this narrative when the jobs report which should be straight up objective has been revised down by several orders of magnitude for more than a couple instances after-the-fact, where even the people who have a decade of direct experience are unable to find work.
What you call unrealistic by definition is realistically necessary in all but the little luxury car part, and its assumed you don't have a fully paid off mortgage either. The fact that its not should scare everyone because what that means is the resources required to produce children aren't available anymore, and that is just another sequential pipeline failure whose results will become evident with time and hysteresis with no solution due to mathematical chaos (non-determinism).
The primary issue is communication is jammed. AI imposes costs on the job seeker as much as the employer that requires labor to the point where matches aren't happening and the Shannon limit has likely been reached resulting in similar system behavior we typically attribute to the label RNA Interference (in cellular networks), but in communication networks.
If you can't notice there is a problem, how can you ever take any action to fix a problem you can't see. This is really disingenuous of the reality.
Career Development is another pipeline, if the first rung is gone, how do you get reinforcements that are competent? You've got a narrow lag period of time before the only candidates left are burnouts and those aging out, and eventually lost knowledge with no one able to do the job.
Nothing into a pipeline, nothing out.
What you call unrealistic by definition is realistically necessary in all but the little luxury car part, and its assumed you don't have a fully paid off mortgage either. The fact that its not should scare everyone because what that means is the resources required to produce children aren't available anymore, and that is just another sequential pipeline failure whose results will become evident with time and hysteresis with no solution due to mathematical chaos (non-determinism).
The primary issue is communication is jammed. AI imposes costs on the job seeker as much as the employer that requires labor to the point where matches aren't happening and the Shannon limit has likely been reached resulting in similar system behavior we typically attribute to the label RNA Interference (in cellular networks), but in communication networks.
If you can't notice there is a problem, how can you ever take any action to fix a problem you can't see. This is really disingenuous of the reality.
Career Development is another pipeline, if the first rung is gone, how do you get reinforcements that are competent? You've got a narrow lag period of time before the only candidates left are burnouts and those aging out, and eventually lost knowledge with no one able to do the job.
Nothing into a pipeline, nothing out.
Sorry but the down turn in the job market is real and absolutely worst then people on this website want to realize. most are struggling, juniors especially.
The attitude of young people have nothing to do with that.
> The attitude of young people have nothing to do with that.
“Whither are the manly vigour and athletic appearance of our forefathers flown? Can these be their legitimate heirs? Surely, no; a race of effeminate, self-admiring, emaciated fribbles can never have descended in a direct line from the heroes of Potiers and Agincourt…”
Letter in Town and Country magazine republished in Paris Fashion: A Cultural History 1771
“Whither are the manly vigour and athletic appearance of our forefathers flown? Can these be their legitimate heirs? Surely, no; a race of effeminate, self-admiring, emaciated fribbles can never have descended in a direct line from the heroes of Potiers and Agincourt…”
Letter in Town and Country magazine republished in Paris Fashion: A Cultural History 1771
I think it might depend on what someone means by "luxury car". An affordable sportscar like a Miata or a Scion FRS doesn't seem all that unreasonable.
The other things (home, family, decent job) certainly don't seem unreasonable if we weren't living in a late stage capitalism dystopia.
The other things (home, family, decent job) certainly don't seem unreasonable if we weren't living in a late stage capitalism dystopia.
Luxury cars have industry definitions and colloquial definitions. Miata’s don’t fit the industry definition, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone call a Miata a luxury car.
The person in the article is most likely talking about a Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo, Acura, or Infinity.
The person in the article is most likely talking about a Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo, Acura, or Infinity.
Part of the reason Boomers had it so easy was that they weren't all Psychology and English majors. They worked in hospitals, they worked in manufacturing, they worked trades - industries that are all facing labor shortages today because people consider it beneath them.
My boomer dad grew up poor & rural enough he started life with a dirt floor and outhouse, puttered around doing odd & entry-level jobs but nothing that could be called a career until he was 30 (no college, of course), had kids and a divorce and child support before marrying my mom, then finally started entry-level at a railroad and worked his way up. Retired a millionaire, liquid, not counting the paid off house (their houses had all been bought cash since he was 35 or so)
So made or suffered about three “blunders” or catastrophes that’d make life extremely hard now… and his was on easy mode anyway. Five total kids, divorce and tons of expenses, not getting into his career until his 30s, no degree.
We still took a two-week driving or sometimes flying vacation every summer. By the time he was 45 or so our houses were huge and nice. He spent many thousands (when $1,000 was still a lot of money, and not two costco trips…) a year on hobbies.
Retired with more than a million liquid. Despite all that. And a million was still a lot around the year 2000.
It really was different for them. Way, way, way easier.
[edit] oh and my mom quit her federal government job after they got married and never worked a paying job again. That was on one fucking income. A guy with no degree or connections or family money working on the railroad.
So made or suffered about three “blunders” or catastrophes that’d make life extremely hard now… and his was on easy mode anyway. Five total kids, divorce and tons of expenses, not getting into his career until his 30s, no degree.
We still took a two-week driving or sometimes flying vacation every summer. By the time he was 45 or so our houses were huge and nice. He spent many thousands (when $1,000 was still a lot of money, and not two costco trips…) a year on hobbies.
Retired with more than a million liquid. Despite all that. And a million was still a lot around the year 2000.
It really was different for them. Way, way, way easier.
[edit] oh and my mom quit her federal government job after they got married and never worked a paying job again. That was on one fucking income. A guy with no degree or connections or family money working on the railroad.
Yeah current generations are screwed unless they get lucky or play their cards right or have support from family. In 1950s-1960s America you had to actively try to screw up. I mean you have stories of ex-cons starting over and making a good life while now if you have any kind of record you'd be lucky to get a graveyard shift job stocking shelves at Walmart. In my personal case that is not the problem. I started in 2009 during the last recession and did not get a job in my field. I have a poor work history relative to my capabilities. I have always felt unwanted in the labor force. Fortunately I have had some inheritance and support from family to have a shot at life. It is still mind boggling how structurally stacked against people who get off track or don't start right the system today is versus what it was in the past. In the past companies needed people, they trained people on the job and developed people and career progression was possible for most people. Now there is no long term investment or commitment from either the employee or employer. Employers are looking for people who can builshit customers (because few companies actually make things anymore) or play a regulatory or compliance game. If you're a smart, capable guy or girl without connections or good work history you might as well kiss you hopes of having a professional career in many fields goodbye. The economy just needs people to make enough money to buy things. It is no longer about improving qualitative standards of living. Pensions...goodbye. Long vacations goodbye...unions...what a joke today, just an excuse to skim your paycheck for no protection, job security goodbye.
The reason I think is we outsourced our manufacturing and society simply needs fewer people to produce the output consumers demand.
Also culturally we have given up on employers investing in people for the long term.
Help is not needed and if it is it is not valued because everything is replaceable and successful career people job hop anyway.
The reason I think is we outsourced our manufacturing and society simply needs fewer people to produce the output consumers demand.
Also culturally we have given up on employers investing in people for the long term.
Help is not needed and if it is it is not valued because everything is replaceable and successful career people job hop anyway.
You should google things before you say them to make sure they’re true.
What search terms would you suggest?
“Most popular majors” or “majors percentage”. It frustrated me because on this issue the results of a google search completely disagree with the idea students are mostly english or psychology. The most popular major is business.
I had graduated in 1984 and the market had dried up significantly until 1985, then it was booming. But, that year I searched for employment (crickets) and getting engaged in eventual very high tech, it was a great time, and I look back fondly at the personal journey. I dug ditches, painted apartments, and advanced myself. And I still tell people out of school and searching, enjoy the time to be un-interrupted as you will get fully engaged at some point and find yourself busy for the next 40 years.
I graduated in 2004 with a BS in computer science from CMU. I was always told I hadn't worked hard enough to become a software developer, even though that's what I was doing in minimum wage jobs where my title was DBA. Finally gave up after 12 years of searching. YMMV. It was weird when all my professors who said they'd help me find a job if I couldn't find one suddenly didn't have any time for me. Start your life now don't wait just because society tells you that's what you're supposed to do.
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And they can just eat dried paint chips and sleep in the ditches!
All of a sudden I don't hear the "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" folks anymore. Where did they go? Are they in the unemployment line, too?
I know a dozen of those, and most of them are "starting their own company (stealth)" - aka they're unemployed for many months. It's all very weird (despite people saying "it's going to start improving" for 2 years now)
in fact, they are. know many of these people and helping one of them get re hired right now. and you can be sure they never expected this to hit them!
the Boomer retirement(or lack of) bomb is currently going off. This generation had quite a large cohort who experienced an economic "miracle" throughout their childhood, and developed a troublesome and largely unrealistic grasp of pay and quality of life level for expected labour. They were the generation of just showing up to work and a firm handshake was enough for automatic promotion over time.
Boomers are in their 60’s and up. Covid took some away, certainly their jobs. People who still had a pension took it and are gone. Social starts up ok at 62-63 if you’ve done ok saving. And judging from the typical ageism we all discuss here people just ain’t interesting by that age. So they’re not taking up jobs like they used to.
Houses, yeah, but unless you’re going to dump them offshore ya gotta live somewhere. Many have or are downsizing which frees up larger houses in desirable areas. Not their fault that investment firms are inhaling houses to give them a better return than stocks.
And remember all this retirement savings stuff has to start paying its taxes at 72 or 73 so the government gets their share. Downward price pressure won’t help the market but one has to sell to eat.
Houses, yeah, but unless you’re going to dump them offshore ya gotta live somewhere. Many have or are downsizing which frees up larger houses in desirable areas. Not their fault that investment firms are inhaling houses to give them a better return than stocks.
And remember all this retirement savings stuff has to start paying its taxes at 72 or 73 so the government gets their share. Downward price pressure won’t help the market but one has to sell to eat.
They’re decrying H1-B abuse, mostly.
My sister and law and from what I can tell, most of her friends, are going on almost 2 years post college job hunting now in South Korea - https://www.chosun.com/english/national-en/2025/07/17/SZTLLA...
And the running discussion over there is that Hyundai owns Boston Dynamics so they expect all their jobs to be replaced by either AI or Robots in the coming years.
And the running discussion over there is that Hyundai owns Boston Dynamics so they expect all their jobs to be replaced by either AI or Robots in the coming years.
The situation in Korea is completely different. There are tens of thousands of jobs available, including white collar, but people don't want to work for those companies - everyone goes for the exact same handful of jobs, the very top. And because unlike in most of the West it's culturally acceptable to live with ones parents for 2 years while continuously applying for those jobs, that's what many people do. It's a tradeoff.
In fact, the parents often actively enable and support this strategy. Unthinkable in the West.
This is nothing like "I sent 300 resumes to every place in the country and can't get a job". Of course, such people do exist, but those are in majors/fields in which it was already near-impossible 10 years ago to get a job in most of the world. If everyone in Denmark would go "Maersk, Novo Nordisk, Carlsberg or bust", you'd see the exact same.
Honestly, your story indicates that your sister-in-law and her friends are likely at least middle class. Those who simply can't afford to sit around for 2 years (lower class) do just get a job straight away.
In fact, the parents often actively enable and support this strategy. Unthinkable in the West.
This is nothing like "I sent 300 resumes to every place in the country and can't get a job". Of course, such people do exist, but those are in majors/fields in which it was already near-impossible 10 years ago to get a job in most of the world. If everyone in Denmark would go "Maersk, Novo Nordisk, Carlsberg or bust", you'd see the exact same.
Honestly, your story indicates that your sister-in-law and her friends are likely at least middle class. Those who simply can't afford to sit around for 2 years (lower class) do just get a job straight away.
Can you provide a link to labour statistics indicating that? I don't think what you're saying is true at all, I'd be curious to read your source.
https://www.munhwa.com/article/11487922
But really, being deeply ingrained into society and having personally worked at such places here in Korea is worth more than flawed statistics, which really all statistics are when it comes to these topics. I've literally personally interviewed the very few applicants we got as a small company outside of Seoul. They didn't know the difference between a GET and a POST; these were people applying as a backend API developers. We had to train people from absolute zero. And this was at a "modern" workplace ran by young leadership, which should theoretically be much more attractive - one of the, if not the number 1 most commonly named reason for not wanting to work for smaller companies (and even moreso outside of Seoul) is "old(-school) working culture".
https://www.segye.com/newsView/20250327517804
These companies aren't like Silicon Valley startups abusing H1Bs, hiring foreigners because they're cheaper, Koreans genuinely aren't applying.
Go ask her and her friends how many 중소 outside of 수도권 they've applied to. Again, if they've studied something like German language or archaeology then sure, but people aren't getting jobs in those fields in Sweden (to name a completely random high HDI country) either.
But really, being deeply ingrained into society and having personally worked at such places here in Korea is worth more than flawed statistics, which really all statistics are when it comes to these topics. I've literally personally interviewed the very few applicants we got as a small company outside of Seoul. They didn't know the difference between a GET and a POST; these were people applying as a backend API developers. We had to train people from absolute zero. And this was at a "modern" workplace ran by young leadership, which should theoretically be much more attractive - one of the, if not the number 1 most commonly named reason for not wanting to work for smaller companies (and even moreso outside of Seoul) is "old(-school) working culture".
https://www.segye.com/newsView/20250327517804
These companies aren't like Silicon Valley startups abusing H1Bs, hiring foreigners because they're cheaper, Koreans genuinely aren't applying.
Go ask her and her friends how many 중소 outside of 수도권 they've applied to. Again, if they've studied something like German language or archaeology then sure, but people aren't getting jobs in those fields in Sweden (to name a completely random high HDI country) either.
Good reading, thanks for the links. She she and her friends, came out of some version of this: https://metalart.hongik.ac.kr/en/academics/intro-faculty-det...
I will say, her friend group is my only sample, but my general understanding is that it's even hard to get a job at olive young these days, maybe they're misleading us and are lazy tho, that could be true.
I will say, her friend group is my only sample, but my general understanding is that it's even hard to get a job at olive young these days, maybe they're misleading us and are lazy tho, that could be true.
Late reply, but this isn't really so much about being "lazy", more about unrealistic standards. It's like if all IT fresh grads in Sweden (to name the same random country again) would only want to work at Spotify or DICE or bust. And they'd rather live with their parents for two years after uni in the hope they might get a job at either of those 2 then go work at a smaller company outside of Stockholm that would instantly hire them.
This permeates through in every facet of society. For example, the exact same psychology is the reason behind having the lowest birthrate in the world. Don't have the money to raise a child in a nice new apartment in a great neighborhood including tens of thousands dollars spent on private education? Ok, then no child it is.
This permeates through in every facet of society. For example, the exact same psychology is the reason behind having the lowest birthrate in the world. Don't have the money to raise a child in a nice new apartment in a great neighborhood including tens of thousands dollars spent on private education? Ok, then no child it is.
I always find personal stories and quotes a weird way to tell these kinds of stories. Someone is always frustrated trying to find a job, right? Every field has ups and downs over time, and I know people whose fields were having a down turn in 2021 when tech was hotter than ever.
AI engineers aren’t in a slump I assume, nurses are classically understaffed right?
AI engineers aren’t in a slump I assume, nurses are classically understaffed right?
> The national economic data backs up their experience. The unemployment rate among recent graduates has been increasing this year to an average of 5.3%, compared to around 4% for the labor force as a whole, making it one of the toughest job markets for recent graduates since 2015, according to an analysis by the Federal Reserve Bank of New York released Friday.
The toughest since 2015 hardly seems like anything noteworthy.
I think that's part of it, however it does seem the barrier to entry for anything now is a lot higher. People can argue what's causing that as they may, I cannot say for sure what causes it. Could be economic, could be cultural/procedural within corporates.
Offshoring … (not h1bs)
> AI engineers aren’t in a slump I assume
It's in a slump if you are a junior. You see these stories about experienced guys getting ridiculous comp packages, but if you are fresh out of undergrad getting especially a researcher position at a top outfit is very difficult.
It's in a slump if you are a junior. You see these stories about experienced guys getting ridiculous comp packages, but if you are fresh out of undergrad getting especially a researcher position at a top outfit is very difficult.
We hear about a literal _dozen_ people getting those ridiculous packages. A dozen people versus hundreds of thousands on the unemployment line.
Why do these always/only talk about new graduates? My last contract ended, and I haven’t had a real interview in over a year.
Because their unemployment rates specifically are catastrophic levels. I’ve seen reports as high as 19%. Fortunately, other demographics simply aren’t experiencing difficulties at this level.
As an aside, I personally noticed the market pick up hard in the last few weeks. I work in a niche industry, but get ads for software dev jobs regularly and they’ve really surged lately. The past year truly was a difficult time to find a job.
As an aside, I personally noticed the market pick up hard in the last few weeks. I work in a niche industry, but get ads for software dev jobs regularly and they’ve really surged lately. The past year truly was a difficult time to find a job.
The fact that pretty much all new grads are having a more difficult time finding employment than in the past makes it harder to dismiss. If you write a story about 10% of experienced workers being un/underemployed, it's easy for readers to say "oh, that's just structural unemployment" or "they must not be that good at their job," even if someone paying attention to the numbers would know that it used to be 5% (or whatever).
Ok, yet the group of all unemployed unable to get an interview is larger.
Because it's an easy to story they can run every summer - 'how are graduates doing in the job market? we asked 5 of them'.
So, my son just graduated at the start of the summer with a dual degree in Math and Computer Science. He would like to find an entry level job in software engineering. Does anyone have any advice to give him?
Unless he ticks two or (ideally) more of the following:
- graduated summa cum laude
- from a top university (MIT, Stanford, CMU, Cornell, Berkeley)
- lives and breathes tech, writes code for fun in his personal time, iron-clad determination to succeed
- has strong personal projects that show off his top-notch technical skills
he should seriously consider doing something else. The tech field is pretty much over for new grads and it's going to get harder and harder.
- graduated summa cum laude
- from a top university (MIT, Stanford, CMU, Cornell, Berkeley)
- lives and breathes tech, writes code for fun in his personal time, iron-clad determination to succeed
- has strong personal projects that show off his top-notch technical skills
he should seriously consider doing something else. The tech field is pretty much over for new grads and it's going to get harder and harder.
Look for startups connected to the university he graduated from.
n=1, but I graduated with a not so hot GPA so going into the market just before covid wasn't fun. Ended up doing "contracting" (still had a W2) with a really nice agency to get my foot in the proverbial door and eventually started working full-time as a software engineer, albeit in more of a support role. Working as a contractor wasn't too glamorous though (I could definitely say the same about the pay) as it was mostly writing and running automated test, but figured I had to start somewhere.
Is he going to start working FAANG making $300k? It'd be nice if he does, but it's best to keep expectations in check.
Is he going to start working FAANG making $300k? It'd be nice if he does, but it's best to keep expectations in check.
try places like salt lake city, Charlotte NC
Look for Federal contracting firms, they’re much less picky and a job is a job at the end of the day. Of course this will likely require relocation, abstaining from drugs and other touchy things.
Most all of my unemployed friends post-graduation, those C’s get degrees kids, those who just couldn’t find an internship, that’s where they ended up, working for Booz Allen Hamilton or CACI or SRC.
Most all of my unemployed friends post-graduation, those C’s get degrees kids, those who just couldn’t find an internship, that’s where they ended up, working for Booz Allen Hamilton or CACI or SRC.
Rapidly pivot to AI engineering
Chasing rapidly evolving trends is rarely the best bet. The people who pivoted to NFTs and Web3 wouldn’t have succeeded unless they built general tech knowledge along the way.
I also have seen quite a few NFT/crypto people coming out bruised and struggling to find a new role because of the association. A guy I work with was like that.
build personal projects incorporating AI (custom mcp servers, LLM integrations, etc), and reach out to people directly on LinkedIn who might be hiring.
It's real fuckin bad, folks.
Most everyone I know, at all skill levels, go hundreds of applications deep before finally landing a real interview let alone a job these days (in far more than just tech, too). Their unemployment runs out and they can't even get in as a bartender or at a gas station. I used to love helping people find jobs they want, my own way of paying it forward from the people who did that for me, now nothing seems to work.
I interview extremely well, until 2022 I typically got the job I wanted on the first try, they used to find me! Now direct referrals to CEOs or founders from investors or employees result in them ghosting. I've also paradoxically been told that I'm overqualified and should be applying for eng lead/principal/cto positions... and that I don't have enough experience to apply for those roles when I do.
I've just been stringing together small bullshit contracts to pay for vices in the meantime, halfway coasting off passive income. Vaguely it feels like something shitty is coming and it's being drawn out in an attempt to lessen the impact but it's being fucked up by everything else. Reminds me of shortly before 2008, when a lot of the people who knew they'd be getting laid off found out.
I really do not think it's offshoring, either. The crews I have contracted work out to in the past (Eastern Europe, South Korea, Japan) are asking me if I've got anything for them, they've never done that before.
Most everyone I know, at all skill levels, go hundreds of applications deep before finally landing a real interview let alone a job these days (in far more than just tech, too). Their unemployment runs out and they can't even get in as a bartender or at a gas station. I used to love helping people find jobs they want, my own way of paying it forward from the people who did that for me, now nothing seems to work.
I interview extremely well, until 2022 I typically got the job I wanted on the first try, they used to find me! Now direct referrals to CEOs or founders from investors or employees result in them ghosting. I've also paradoxically been told that I'm overqualified and should be applying for eng lead/principal/cto positions... and that I don't have enough experience to apply for those roles when I do.
I've just been stringing together small bullshit contracts to pay for vices in the meantime, halfway coasting off passive income. Vaguely it feels like something shitty is coming and it's being drawn out in an attempt to lessen the impact but it's being fucked up by everything else. Reminds me of shortly before 2008, when a lot of the people who knew they'd be getting laid off found out.
I really do not think it's offshoring, either. The crews I have contracted work out to in the past (Eastern Europe, South Korea, Japan) are asking me if I've got anything for them, they've never done that before.
> Vaguely it feels like something shitty is coming and it's being drawn out in an attempt to lessen the impact but it's being fucked up by everything else. Reminds me of shortly before 2008, when a lot of the people who knew they'd be getting laid off found out.
The economies of entire developed world have been edging since 2020 and every attempt to release was terminated with another violent punch. One pattern within Europe is noticeable though. Countries one by one are overtaken by mafia with legal immunity, and every cash is allocated into luxury cars and real estate.
The economies of entire developed world have been edging since 2020 and every attempt to release was terminated with another violent punch. One pattern within Europe is noticeable though. Countries one by one are overtaken by mafia with legal immunity, and every cash is allocated into luxury cars and real estate.
My biggest mistake was doing a MSc in AI. In hindsight it was a massive waste of time and I should have just aggressively mass applied to jobs and practiced for interviews as much as possible. After getting my BSc the rest meant nothing, portfolio / side projects, self-study, MSc, going to a high ranked university. All meant nothing, it comes down to applying / interviewing using maximum brute force. The rest in hindsight was largely irrelevant.
Why is there no feedback mechanism on the number of H1Bs issued each year? If American citizens are graduating and can’t find a job, certainly we don’t need as many H1Bs.
This is trend in Europe as well. Native population is "too expensive" and "not suitably qualified" while businesses continue importing cheap labour in coaches.
We never needed any, but we have no real say in how our country is run so that doesn't matter.
I disagree, but when I see low quality software engineers coming in on H1B, I know there are US citizens who could have done that job. I see Customer Support Managers, Solutions Architects, Software Managers, all with H1B. Any of those jobs could be performed by a US citizen. What the US needs are the higher tier engineers. The ones which are in short supply in the US.
The higher tier engineers come over on a completely different visa. H1B is just a new version of international slave trade but no one wants to admit it because it sounds bad.
I’ve worked with H1B engineers who vary in skill by at least 2 orders of magnitude. Neither of them are eligible for the “completely different visa”. Yet we keep bringing in the dregs because of the lottery system, and they stay around because of the body shops who are just billing head count.
Bit confused by the mentions of 50k and above salary but can’t afford to move out because rent is above a grand
Last I checked a year has 12 months so that should easily work no?
Last I checked a year has 12 months so that should easily work no?
No? That leaves you with a bit over $3k monthly post-tax in a no-income tax state for benefit of the doubt. Applying the 30% of income rule landlords commonly use, that means you can afford about $900/mo max. The average US rent is currently >$1600.
Checking my local area, you'd be able to afford 0.5% of the current listings with that income. I'm certain that most of those units are low income housing with special application processes and eligibility criteria though.
Checking my local area, you'd be able to afford 0.5% of the current listings with that income. I'm certain that most of those units are low income housing with special application processes and eligibility criteria though.
Salaries are usually quoted in before-tax dollars, while paying rent happens after tax. Any place where rent is around “a grand“ also requires a car (and insurance) to survive. That 50k gets used up quickly.
It is doable but highly location based and still really tight. I’m in a tier 2 US city. Our interns wage would equate to $58k annually. A car isn’t needed if in the city. Most people have a roommate, which works out to just over $1k a person.
58 (pay) - 21 (tax) - 13 (rent) -13 (transit) leaves $900/month or $30/day.
Full time grads are around $20k higher….so roughly triple the amount left over.
Or you commute further. I’m mid career and commuted more than hour most of my career because it let me get a better/cheaper apartment while affording a used car.
58 (pay) - 21 (tax) - 13 (rent) -13 (transit) leaves $900/month or $30/day.
Full time grads are around $20k higher….so roughly triple the amount left over.
Or you commute further. I’m mid career and commuted more than hour most of my career because it let me get a better/cheaper apartment while affording a used car.
30% of $50k is $1,250. Up to you if that’s enough margin
Junior jobs will come back when blitz-pricing of AI coding products end.
Current bosses think these prices with 200/mo to "leave it and auto-code for the whole month, day and night" will stay like this. Of course it won't.
Typical startup play but in massive scale. Junior jobs might come back but not in bulk, still selective, very slowly.
Typical startup play but in massive scale. Junior jobs might come back but not in bulk, still selective, very slowly.
If that’s your thesis, $200/mo has a lot of room for price increases before you start reaching Jr dev salary/mo.
It is so strange... around me in the Netherlands, the fresh graduates (kids of friends, cousins, nephews) cannot stop the inflow of job offers. The ones that graduated this summer all have jobs lined up for september. Wonder what's happening.
This is exactly my experience. Entry level/“have a pulse” jobs will ghost now
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I have about 10 yrs experience, and just conducted my first job hunt in 5 years (I was with one company for a long time, then took a sabbatical for half a year after our dev team was off-shored). I was pretty concerned that it could take 6 months or more to find a gig. But I found myself interviewing with 6 or 7 companies within two weeks, and had 2 offers by the end of week 3 (I'm starting the new gig tomorrow). I consider myself a pretty average full-stack rails/react dev. I don't even bother applying to FANG (or whatever the acronym is now) jobs. So... I don't know if I just got lucky, but the job market felt pretty good when looking for senior roles. My interviews were a mix of referrals from previous coworkers, a couple recruiters reaching out, and (the job I accepted) from reaching out on LinkedIn to hiring managers posting jobs.
It feels like the AI wave is killing junior jobs, but driving demand for experienced developers to harness it, even if just harnessing it as a tool to speed up coding.