Ask HN: I haven't had to buy a Windows computer in 20 years
19 comments
Laptop brands are still trying to get away with 8GB RAM machines for general use, and especially at that value point of $200 you'll probably see 2-4GB models too.
You have a niche use-case but RAM does indeed appear to be the main bottleneck. You don't need fancy graphics, or a particularly fast CPU. You likely only need good single-core speeds.
The i5-12400 is a workhorse on the CPU front that isn't crazy old, and should do you well enough on the single core front. Pair that with 16GB of RAM and I would think you'd be set.
$1,000 might get you more if you wanted to be safe and future proof a bit more. However, RAM prices are very high right now and venturing up to 32GB of RAM might hard.
Something like this: https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-zenbook-14-14-fhd-oled-...
32GB RAM, nice screen, touch screen, very modern CPU (beating the 12400 benchmark). $100 under your top end of budget. It is only a 14 inch screen, great for portability, but maybe you like a bigger screen for reviewing as much content as possible?
You have a niche use-case but RAM does indeed appear to be the main bottleneck. You don't need fancy graphics, or a particularly fast CPU. You likely only need good single-core speeds.
The i5-12400 is a workhorse on the CPU front that isn't crazy old, and should do you well enough on the single core front. Pair that with 16GB of RAM and I would think you'd be set.
$1,000 might get you more if you wanted to be safe and future proof a bit more. However, RAM prices are very high right now and venturing up to 32GB of RAM might hard.
Something like this: https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-zenbook-14-14-fhd-oled-...
32GB RAM, nice screen, touch screen, very modern CPU (beating the 12400 benchmark). $100 under your top end of budget. It is only a 14 inch screen, great for portability, but maybe you like a bigger screen for reviewing as much content as possible?
14 inches is fine for me the smaller the better. Thanks you for a detailed reply and the link. This laptop looks like it could be good for me.
I think I found it on Costco.com for cheaper: https://www.costco.com/p/-/acer-aspire-14-ai-copilot-pc-touc...
I think I found it on Costco.com for cheaper: https://www.costco.com/p/-/acer-aspire-14-ai-copilot-pc-touc...
Thinkpad T480, get an old enterprise machine off ebay and add more RAM
I did this a while ago, wrote about it here: https://maxrozen.com/getting-your-own-good-enough-laptop-for...
I did this a while ago, wrote about it here: https://maxrozen.com/getting-your-own-good-enough-laptop-for...
Gotta say that I think the people recommending linux+wine for this are nuts. There's just no point to that. You want a laptop to run a particular software program. Find out what the minimal system requirements for that program are and get something that meets or exceeds them.
In your case, that seems to mean an Intel Core 5 or 7, Intel Ultra 5, 7, or 9, or AMD Ryzen 5, 7, or 9 processor, Windows 11, 8 GB RAM or 16 GB "if using CATalyst VP with Dragon Naturally Speaking," whatever those are, and 256 GB disk space.
Looks like you can get one of a bunch of Lenovo ThinkPads and IdeaPads that meet those requirements starting at about $600, although including Windows Pro and 32 GB RAM will make it more like $750.
In your case, that seems to mean an Intel Core 5 or 7, Intel Ultra 5, 7, or 9, or AMD Ryzen 5, 7, or 9 processor, Windows 11, 8 GB RAM or 16 GB "if using CATalyst VP with Dragon Naturally Speaking," whatever those are, and 256 GB disk space.
Looks like you can get one of a bunch of Lenovo ThinkPads and IdeaPads that meet those requirements starting at about $600, although including Windows Pro and 32 GB RAM will make it more like $750.
> Gotta say that I think the people recommending linux+wine for this are nuts.
Agreed, especially since the vendor is already blaming the laptop. The goal should be hardware and software that is known and reputable, so the vendor can’t pass the buck.
I would shoot to slightly exceed the recommended requirements, rather than the minimum requirements. Assuming that can be within budget. If buying at the minimum, the experience may be sub-par and the next update could move the hardware out of support. If this is for their future job, they need to be able to perform well and not be crippled by the hardware. I haven’t don’t stenography before, but I have taken meeting notes. Slowdowns and latency seem like they would be a frustrating nightmare.
Agreed, especially since the vendor is already blaming the laptop. The goal should be hardware and software that is known and reputable, so the vendor can’t pass the buck.
I would shoot to slightly exceed the recommended requirements, rather than the minimum requirements. Assuming that can be within budget. If buying at the minimum, the experience may be sub-par and the next update could move the hardware out of support. If this is for their future job, they need to be able to perform well and not be crippled by the hardware. I haven’t don’t stenography before, but I have taken meeting notes. Slowdowns and latency seem like they would be a frustrating nightmare.
PC laptops ate just not reliable IMO. Go with Dell and get their on site support for 3 years and maybe accidental damage. But that aint cheap. But non-mac laptops suck! They are fragile, often barfed or barf soon after purchase.
Have you considered installing Linux and seeing if WINE/Proton can run that software? Might free up a bit of RAM headroom, and if it doesn't work out, you haven't lost anything more than a bit of time as you'll just be grabbing a beefier laptop anyways.
The software is Case Catalyst by Stenograph, Inc. I can try. I don't have much experience with WINE working well enough in the past with other niche apps. Thank You.
I have not had luck getting Case Catalyst to run well in WINE and it is not in the WINE AppDB. WINE is great software, but just stick with Windows, so you don't have two problems.
Also, uninstall any extra software (so called "crapware") that came installed on your laptop. These are notorious for hogging resources. Often this comes in the form of antivirus software and "lite" software suites that nag you for subscriptions constantly.
Uninstall anything Symantec, Norton or Adobe (unless you absolutely need it).
I personally use Chris Titus's WinUtil to debloat: https://christitus.com/windows-tool/
Also, uninstall any extra software (so called "crapware") that came installed on your laptop. These are notorious for hogging resources. Often this comes in the form of antivirus software and "lite" software suites that nag you for subscriptions constantly.
Uninstall anything Symantec, Norton or Adobe (unless you absolutely need it).
I personally use Chris Titus's WinUtil to debloat: https://christitus.com/windows-tool/
Thank you for the link to this tool. That should help! :-)
WINE has come along way (in fact, legacy Windows apps tend to work better on Linux that Windows 11 these days), especially when you add in Proton, Winetricks, etc. It's worth a shot
Framework 13 with the Ryzen AI 5 340 and 2.2K display costs around $900. https://frame.work/laptop13
Add RAM and SSD from a third party, e.g. Amazon, which saves you some money.
Also note that since it's a Framework laptop you can always upgrade the mainboard and display later when you want to.
The cheapest full setup will be around ~1300 (including RAM, storage and all necessary accessories like the expansion cards for external IO).
Also note that if you can set aside ~32 Gb of RAM for virtual machine usage you can run Linux with potentially a GPU accelerated VM containing Windows on this thing which allows you to run native Windows (not simulated, like in WINE) and thus native Windows apps on top of Linux on pretty much bare metal speeds.
Add RAM and SSD from a third party, e.g. Amazon, which saves you some money.
Also note that since it's a Framework laptop you can always upgrade the mainboard and display later when you want to.
The cheapest full setup will be around ~1300 (including RAM, storage and all necessary accessories like the expansion cards for external IO).
Also note that if you can set aside ~32 Gb of RAM for virtual machine usage you can run Linux with potentially a GPU accelerated VM containing Windows on this thing which allows you to run native Windows (not simulated, like in WINE) and thus native Windows apps on top of Linux on pretty much bare metal speeds.
Can you elaborate more on your last sentence and running VMs? How does 32GB set aside for VMs and GPU accelerated let you run native Windows? Is there special/newer VM software that is used? Is it still virtualbox?
Outside of docker containers for servers and work I haven't delved into VMs on PCs in a while but this sounds compelling to run linux and windows at once from the same hardware instead of a dual boot.
Outside of docker containers for servers and work I haven't delved into VMs on PCs in a while but this sounds compelling to run linux and windows at once from the same hardware instead of a dual boot.
Certainly.
KVM (standard Linux kernel feature) will get you virtualization. On top of that there's a hardware virtualization feature which is called IOMMU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input%E2%80%93output_memory_ma...) allowing you to "detach" physical hardware from your host PC and assign it to a VM. This allows you to run a operating system (in this case Windows) inside a virtual machine, but it can use the physical GPU for graphics acceleration because you attached the GPU to it.
When you attach the GPU to it, the VM will also behave like a "real" PC meaning it will discover your graphics card as one of its installed devices and will ask you to install AMD or Nvidia drivers (depending on what hardware you assigned to it) on the virtualized Windows system.
Although it's a bit easier and less tricky on a laptop with 2 GPUs (a integrated GPU embedded with the CPU and a discrete GPU for example) it is also very much possible on a system with a single integrated or discrete GPU.
The only thing you will need to consider on a single GPU configuration is that all GPU acceleration on the host will be gone as long as the GPU is deattached from the host, and it will solely depend on the frame buffer for graphics output (so in this particular case you should not run apps requiring 3D acceleration and the GPU accelerated VM on the host at the same time).
When you have two GPUs you can use one for applications on the host and the other for GPU acceleration in the virtual machine, which means you can run 3D accelerated apps on the host, and a GPU accelerated virtual machine at the same time.
Do note however that you can't run any Windows games with kernel level anti cheat this way, that cat and mouse game has been played and lost. A lot of other use cases will work fine, though.
KVM (standard Linux kernel feature) will get you virtualization. On top of that there's a hardware virtualization feature which is called IOMMU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input%E2%80%93output_memory_ma...) allowing you to "detach" physical hardware from your host PC and assign it to a VM. This allows you to run a operating system (in this case Windows) inside a virtual machine, but it can use the physical GPU for graphics acceleration because you attached the GPU to it.
When you attach the GPU to it, the VM will also behave like a "real" PC meaning it will discover your graphics card as one of its installed devices and will ask you to install AMD or Nvidia drivers (depending on what hardware you assigned to it) on the virtualized Windows system.
Although it's a bit easier and less tricky on a laptop with 2 GPUs (a integrated GPU embedded with the CPU and a discrete GPU for example) it is also very much possible on a system with a single integrated or discrete GPU.
The only thing you will need to consider on a single GPU configuration is that all GPU acceleration on the host will be gone as long as the GPU is deattached from the host, and it will solely depend on the frame buffer for graphics output (so in this particular case you should not run apps requiring 3D acceleration and the GPU accelerated VM on the host at the same time).
When you have two GPUs you can use one for applications on the host and the other for GPU acceleration in the virtual machine, which means you can run 3D accelerated apps on the host, and a GPU accelerated virtual machine at the same time.
Do note however that you can't run any Windows games with kernel level anti cheat this way, that cat and mouse game has been played and lost. A lot of other use cases will work fine, though.
The Dell Pro line of laptops are rock solid (use to be called latitude). they have models with 16gb ram for under $1000 with holiday sales going on.
I would recommend getting nice used/refurbished laptops from ebay. Take the time to do your own install of Windows, cause who knows what's on there.
I recently got two; a refurbished HP EliteBook 645 G10 and a used Lenovo ThinkPad L14 Gen 2. Both around $300, with a recentish processor (Zen 3), 16 GB ram and a 256 GB SSD. Scratches and dings included at no additional fee. The Thinkpad has fewer USB ports, but the Elitebook has an annoying fan.
If you need more than 16 GB ram, you probably need to consider if it's better to get one that already has that much, or if you should get one with replaceable RAM and swap... 16 GB is enough for my needs; one of the machines has 1 channel soldered, 1 DIMM; the other machine is 2 DIMMs. I was doing the same work on a $100 laptop with 4 GB ram; it wasn't fun, but I could do it --- but if my needs change I can upgrade.
The "refurbished" machine had a proper out of the box experience and windows 11 professional; the used one had win 11 enterprise installed with a user named user --- I put a fresh copy of windows 11 pro on that (bios activation); after some judicious changes in group policy editor, and disabling the push content in the lock screen, it's not terrible.
Not my listing, caveat emptor, but something like this might be a reasonable option since you are sort of indicating 16GB ram might not be enough ... https://www.ebay.com/itm/257198634361 $250, ThinkPad L14 Gen 1; 6-core zen2, 32GB ram, 512 GB SSD. The L14 is bigger and clunkier than other 14" thinkpads, but more modular... and IMHO, having more bezel underneath the screen elevates the screen a smidge which helps ergonomics a tiny amount; of course, the keyboard is still an ergonomic disaster with the reach over the trackpad, but that battle has been lost for decades.
I recently got two; a refurbished HP EliteBook 645 G10 and a used Lenovo ThinkPad L14 Gen 2. Both around $300, with a recentish processor (Zen 3), 16 GB ram and a 256 GB SSD. Scratches and dings included at no additional fee. The Thinkpad has fewer USB ports, but the Elitebook has an annoying fan.
If you need more than 16 GB ram, you probably need to consider if it's better to get one that already has that much, or if you should get one with replaceable RAM and swap... 16 GB is enough for my needs; one of the machines has 1 channel soldered, 1 DIMM; the other machine is 2 DIMMs. I was doing the same work on a $100 laptop with 4 GB ram; it wasn't fun, but I could do it --- but if my needs change I can upgrade.
The "refurbished" machine had a proper out of the box experience and windows 11 professional; the used one had win 11 enterprise installed with a user named user --- I put a fresh copy of windows 11 pro on that (bios activation); after some judicious changes in group policy editor, and disabling the push content in the lock screen, it's not terrible.
Not my listing, caveat emptor, but something like this might be a reasonable option since you are sort of indicating 16GB ram might not be enough ... https://www.ebay.com/itm/257198634361 $250, ThinkPad L14 Gen 1; 6-core zen2, 32GB ram, 512 GB SSD. The L14 is bigger and clunkier than other 14" thinkpads, but more modular... and IMHO, having more bezel underneath the screen elevates the screen a smidge which helps ergonomics a tiny amount; of course, the keyboard is still an ergonomic disaster with the reach over the trackpad, but that battle has been lost for decades.
One more vote for used and reasonably recent Thinkpad T series. These are laptops used by businesses and rotated every few years. T480 is getting a bit old, I think T14 gen 2 has the best price/usability ratio at the moment. I'd get at least 16Gb RAM, 32Gb if you can afford it (many recent laptops do not allow RAM upgrades). Windows is pretty resource hungry. You can replace SSD with a bigger one if you want.
If you're not comfortable getting used from eBay get "refurbished" one from Amazon. Honestly there's no much differences in how they're handled, but you will be able to return if something's wrong. It the US the cost will be just under $400 for a decent business-class machine.
If you want you can reinstall OS from scratch (Windows product code comes in laptop's ROM), I always do to avoid bloat/malware/whatever from the seller.
If you're not comfortable getting used from eBay get "refurbished" one from Amazon. Honestly there's no much differences in how they're handled, but you will be able to return if something's wrong. It the US the cost will be just under $400 for a decent business-class machine.
If you want you can reinstall OS from scratch (Windows product code comes in laptop's ROM), I always do to avoid bloat/malware/whatever from the seller.
Used ThinkPad. T4XX preferred.
I haven't had to buy a Windows computer in 20 years. I am back in school for stenography. As I get older I wanted to learn a "trade" that would ensure I could work into my older years. The school requires Windows as they work with Stenograph hardware.
I've looked everywhere to buy a laptop. I need ram mostly and a few USB ports.
I bought a cheap $200 laptop (16gb ram) at Walmart and after a few months of nothing but troubles I need to acquire something better that is budget friendly but reliable. The problems have been with using the stenography hardware and everything freezing up. The company that makes the stenotype machine is blaming my laptop.
I could spend $500-$1000 (perhaps more if it is compelling). I don't really need all the fluff that comes when you buy a machine these days.
Can anyone recommend a path to finding a reliable, laptop with lots of RAM that will last for several years?
Thank you for clarifying my confusion in the market.