Ask HN: Help a fellow hacker - drop out and get a job or get the CS degree?
24 comments
This comes up here with a saddening frequency. Here's the answer (from last time somebody in your shoes asked):
Valid reasons for leaving college to go into software development include having build an app/site/open-source-thing that's exploding to the point where you've demonstrated beyond a doubt that you're good at this stuff and therefore don't need a piece of paper from a 3rd party saying as much. It doesn't sound like you (original poster) have done that yet.
The quick test is this: Has Twitter offered you six figures to come work for them? If not, then no, you don't get to skip college yet. Stick it out until that happens, then go. Otherwise all you're doing is stacking the deck against yourself.
And in the meantime, try a bit harder to enjoy your time at university. Forty-year-old you will probably look back at it as one of the best parts of your life.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5025660
Valid reasons for leaving college to go into software development include having build an app/site/open-source-thing that's exploding to the point where you've demonstrated beyond a doubt that you're good at this stuff and therefore don't need a piece of paper from a 3rd party saying as much. It doesn't sound like you (original poster) have done that yet.
The quick test is this: Has Twitter offered you six figures to come work for them? If not, then no, you don't get to skip college yet. Stick it out until that happens, then go. Otherwise all you're doing is stacking the deck against yourself.
And in the meantime, try a bit harder to enjoy your time at university. Forty-year-old you will probably look back at it as one of the best parts of your life.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5025660
I think as others have said, dropping out only makes sense if you're dropping out of university and into something else. If you've got an interesting opportunity facing you, go for it! If you just feel demotivated, stick it out!
A degree says that you can work on the same thing for 4 years. It says that you can work on things that someone else set you. It may not be exactly like working in the real world is, but then neither is hacking away on your own projects. Most jobs will require you to do stuff that's not particularly interesting. A degree says "I can put my head down and do that".
I really enjoyed university. I didn't realise quite how much I enjoyed the flexible hours and heaps of socialising until I left. You're at the one point in your life when you can sleep in, work hours that completely fit you, spend lots of time doing your own stuff and still be respected by society. Make the most of it!
If you can, try and talk to a health professional about possibly being bipolar. You'll find that big organisations and your university become much, much more accomodating if you can give documented proof of a condition. Appearing unreliable is probably one of the worst things that you can do for your professional credibility, and so having a formal diagnosis could be very useful.
A degree says that you can work on the same thing for 4 years. It says that you can work on things that someone else set you. It may not be exactly like working in the real world is, but then neither is hacking away on your own projects. Most jobs will require you to do stuff that's not particularly interesting. A degree says "I can put my head down and do that".
I really enjoyed university. I didn't realise quite how much I enjoyed the flexible hours and heaps of socialising until I left. You're at the one point in your life when you can sleep in, work hours that completely fit you, spend lots of time doing your own stuff and still be respected by society. Make the most of it!
If you can, try and talk to a health professional about possibly being bipolar. You'll find that big organisations and your university become much, much more accomodating if you can give documented proof of a condition. Appearing unreliable is probably one of the worst things that you can do for your professional credibility, and so having a formal diagnosis could be very useful.
I never got a degree. I was inches within going to university (or as it's known elsewhere: college). I'm a firm believer that while a degree will make you look good on a resume and usually get you a better salary, having skills that lay those to waste with degrees is how I got to where I am today. If you decide not to get a degree, learn to talk yourself up because prospective employers will grill you hard when they realise you don't have a degree, it's just how it is.
Every place I've ever worked at and the place I am at now, I proved what I know not by my resume but rather impressing them with my street smart developer skills. Sure, I could be earning more money than I currently am now by getting a degree, but I don't have a higher education debt like most of my peers to repay, so it probably works out the same.
If you're persistent and already know how to develop it's better to perhaps teach yourself. Like I said, a degree will get you a better starting salary at a lot of places, but it is by no means in my opinion an advantage over someone like myself who never went on to study computer science of equivalent degree.
The debt from student loans will take ages to repay and although you'll have invaluable skills, I've seen people do CS/IT degrees and struggle in the real world. It sounds like you're more than proficient at teaching yourself and that's all you need. I've often worried about hitting 40 without a degree and losing my job without getting another, but then I remind myself that experience above all else is the most valuable skill to have. A degree doesn't make you smart or good at what you do in my opinion.
I would argue if you love developing websites/software and find you keep yourself up-to-date with current technologies and always refreshing your skills, getting a degree is a waste of time.
Every place I've ever worked at and the place I am at now, I proved what I know not by my resume but rather impressing them with my street smart developer skills. Sure, I could be earning more money than I currently am now by getting a degree, but I don't have a higher education debt like most of my peers to repay, so it probably works out the same.
If you're persistent and already know how to develop it's better to perhaps teach yourself. Like I said, a degree will get you a better starting salary at a lot of places, but it is by no means in my opinion an advantage over someone like myself who never went on to study computer science of equivalent degree.
The debt from student loans will take ages to repay and although you'll have invaluable skills, I've seen people do CS/IT degrees and struggle in the real world. It sounds like you're more than proficient at teaching yourself and that's all you need. I've often worried about hitting 40 without a degree and losing my job without getting another, but then I remind myself that experience above all else is the most valuable skill to have. A degree doesn't make you smart or good at what you do in my opinion.
I would argue if you love developing websites/software and find you keep yourself up-to-date with current technologies and always refreshing your skills, getting a degree is a waste of time.
Universities are called 'universities' where I come from. In fact, I think only Americans call it college.
There's a lot of misconceptions here. In America, "university" and "college" are just about interchangeable.
Yes, "university" does tend to imply a larger school and a school with a PhD program, with college implying the opposite, but this is not a rule and there are hundreds of exceptions. The only type of school that is exclusively called a "college" is the community college (small, local schools that only tend to serve a single city or county/province). But community colleges are widely agreed to be a big step below your typical college/university.
"College" is sometimes used to refer to the undergraduate portion of a university. For example, there is Harvard University. But within Harvard University, undergraduates are actually members of "Harvard College," in exactly the sense that law students would be members of "Harvard Law School."
Yes, "university" does tend to imply a larger school and a school with a PhD program, with college implying the opposite, but this is not a rule and there are hundreds of exceptions. The only type of school that is exclusively called a "college" is the community college (small, local schools that only tend to serve a single city or county/province). But community colleges are widely agreed to be a big step below your typical college/university.
"College" is sometimes used to refer to the undergraduate portion of a university. For example, there is Harvard University. But within Harvard University, undergraduates are actually members of "Harvard College," in exactly the sense that law students would be members of "Harvard Law School."
In America there are colleges, and there are universities. We usually refer to community colleges and state colleges as, well college. Then the Ivy League and prestigious universities, are, well referred to as universities. But they are pretty much used interchangeably. Don't stress the difference.
Yes, but "college" is still the generic form, as in, "Did you go to college?". In America, one would never answer that question, "No, I went to university."
Colleges don't have PHD programs while Universities do, in America at least.
Oh wow, I did not know that.
I'm not way ahead of you (currently I'm finishing my PhD), but I'll try to help you because at some point I had the same question.
I sticked to the CS degree. Let me argue that by answering some of your specific reasons:
1a) Grading system is kind of broken, it is absolutely true. It is too tempting for students to focus on grades rather than on learning. But that is until you realise that. Now you can do both! It is good you've noticed it before your degree ends. From now onwards, you'll be able to combine learning and passing exams. In fact, I you do so, while learning, rules to pass the exam will become easier to understand.
2a) They may o may not be teaching practical stuff, but remember that practical stuff usually has a shot live span. Learning different stuff at the degree will exercise you to be able to adapt to any future stuff. Besides, you should be able to appreciate all non-academic things that you learn while you are at the faculty.
1b) The world shouldn't be like this, but maybe in the future some people will judge (and pay) you by your résumé rather than your abilities… but, whether you get the degree or not I'd urge you to run away from that kind of people. There will be more opportunities in CS market.
3b) One of the many evaluations of a degree is that you must show you can commit to all adversities (grading system, professors, team work, etc.). You must prove that you know how to get to the end of any journey you've begun. Many people will look for that. However, the world is also full of happy successful academy dropouts and people who never get to it from the beginning. You can prove your value without academia.
Cheers!
I sticked to the CS degree. Let me argue that by answering some of your specific reasons:
1a) Grading system is kind of broken, it is absolutely true. It is too tempting for students to focus on grades rather than on learning. But that is until you realise that. Now you can do both! It is good you've noticed it before your degree ends. From now onwards, you'll be able to combine learning and passing exams. In fact, I you do so, while learning, rules to pass the exam will become easier to understand.
2a) They may o may not be teaching practical stuff, but remember that practical stuff usually has a shot live span. Learning different stuff at the degree will exercise you to be able to adapt to any future stuff. Besides, you should be able to appreciate all non-academic things that you learn while you are at the faculty.
1b) The world shouldn't be like this, but maybe in the future some people will judge (and pay) you by your résumé rather than your abilities… but, whether you get the degree or not I'd urge you to run away from that kind of people. There will be more opportunities in CS market.
3b) One of the many evaluations of a degree is that you must show you can commit to all adversities (grading system, professors, team work, etc.). You must prove that you know how to get to the end of any journey you've begun. Many people will look for that. However, the world is also full of happy successful academy dropouts and people who never get to it from the beginning. You can prove your value without academia.
Cheers!
You gave some great advice.
Assignments might not always be geared towards something useful, but sometimes you can go above and beyond the requirements to make a boring assignment interesting.
For example, I'm taking a class on web applications. One of the assignments was to establish a website that supports PHP and MySQL. For this assignment, all we really HAD to do was sign up for web hosting, although I had zero web experience, I thought it sounded kind of boring. Instead, I rented a VPS for the first time, registered a domain name, and taught myself how to install and configure a LAMP stack. I took an otherwise useless assignment, and turned it into something fun, interesting, and useful.
Assignments might not always be geared towards something useful, but sometimes you can go above and beyond the requirements to make a boring assignment interesting.
For example, I'm taking a class on web applications. One of the assignments was to establish a website that supports PHP and MySQL. For this assignment, all we really HAD to do was sign up for web hosting, although I had zero web experience, I thought it sounded kind of boring. Instead, I rented a VPS for the first time, registered a domain name, and taught myself how to install and configure a LAMP stack. I took an otherwise useless assignment, and turned it into something fun, interesting, and useful.
Hey there, fellow dutchie here. Have some tea/coffee? + 31 6 30 366 241
If you drop out make sure you know what you're dropping into. If you intend to go freelance or contractor/consultant then I'd strongly advise against it if you are already worried about mental balance. That's a hard enough thing to do when you are stable.
Getting a job should be fairly easy, but getting a satisfying job will be a bit harder.
If you drop out make sure you know what you're dropping into. If you intend to go freelance or contractor/consultant then I'd strongly advise against it if you are already worried about mental balance. That's a hard enough thing to do when you are stable.
Getting a job should be fairly easy, but getting a satisfying job will be a bit harder.
I've got friends that dropped out of college, have jobs, got married, have kids, and very limited career opportunities because they didn't get their degree and don't have time to get it now (a manager in Spain is expected to have one).
Probably in the US could be a good idea to drop out of college because they BUILD technology products, and the cost of dropping out is simply less debt and the opportunity to build something good/new and get money.
In Europe It's not wise: Get a student job while you finish the degree; but FINISH it. Use what you learn on the job for your end of studies thesis: It'll be a lot easier to finish (that's what my boss did), and you'll finish your studies with something to put in your CV.
And rememeber that the education you get travels with you everywhere.
I hope this helps.
Probably in the US could be a good idea to drop out of college because they BUILD technology products, and the cost of dropping out is simply less debt and the opportunity to build something good/new and get money.
In Europe It's not wise: Get a student job while you finish the degree; but FINISH it. Use what you learn on the job for your end of studies thesis: It'll be a lot easier to finish (that's what my boss did), and you'll finish your studies with something to put in your CV.
And rememeber that the education you get travels with you everywhere.
I hope this helps.
Simple and Obvious.
option 'College' for safe life and option 'drop-out' for a rough, but potentially satisfying one.
But, this is so depending on you whatever the say is.
It's way too hard to find people who question what they actually do in college, people who realize the vast ambiguity and time-waste trying to do what 50 other people in the same class and 1000's of others in different do (atleast here in my region of space).
In that way, you score high.
So, if you feel college is stopping you from doing something incredible, do your thing under its roof and once your stuff is worth more than the degree, drop out.
If you just feel college is a waste of time, with no other plan, then you are on the wrong track.
It's way too hard to find people who question what they actually do in college, people who realize the vast ambiguity and time-waste trying to do what 50 other people in the same class and 1000's of others in different do (atleast here in my region of space).
In that way, you score high.
So, if you feel college is stopping you from doing something incredible, do your thing under its roof and once your stuff is worth more than the degree, drop out.
If you just feel college is a waste of time, with no other plan, then you are on the wrong track.
Another Dutchie here. I'd go for the degree if you have no real immediate need to start making some money. I did my CS degree at the UvA (graduated in '07) and enjoyed every moment of it. Worked quite a bit on the side too (so you can actually make some money).
I think most programmes these days have a certain amount of credit's you have to earn outside the scope of your "major"; so lot's of opportunities to diversify (i.e. take a business oriented/psychology class or two).
edit:
To answer question number 4: Don't worry about the Dutch student loans with DUO. They offer great payback schemes. So you'll be out of debt in "no-time". Student loans at banks are a different story, but even they are manageable.
I think most programmes these days have a certain amount of credit's you have to earn outside the scope of your "major"; so lot's of opportunities to diversify (i.e. take a business oriented/psychology class or two).
edit:
To answer question number 4: Don't worry about the Dutch student loans with DUO. They offer great payback schemes. So you'll be out of debt in "no-time". Student loans at banks are a different story, but even they are manageable.
Get the degree, even if the course looks like it's too easy.
Start a side project that you can turn into a business. Your aim should not be to work for someone else at the end of your formal education. And go to a demoparty since you're in Europe. Make new friends with the same interest in programming. See if you can build a business together.
Why does it need to be one or the other? I work a part time job, have a part time load at college and an internship as a web developer that I'm very excited about. For me, dropping out is only an option if I find an employer offering me a full time position doing something I love. And even then, whats the harm in going to school 12-15 hours a week?
Grades are part of school, if they didn't exist why would you even try to complete the work? I find a lot of times getting a good grade doesn't necessarily mean retaining the information, but as you said, most of that information probably wont be relevant in the real world anyways. So take learning into your own hands, no one said you can only learn at school, books are cheap and tutorials on the internet are nearing a number that is relatively infinite. Work hard and you will get where you want to be, school will never hurt your chances.
Grades are part of school, if they didn't exist why would you even try to complete the work? I find a lot of times getting a good grade doesn't necessarily mean retaining the information, but as you said, most of that information probably wont be relevant in the real world anyways. So take learning into your own hands, no one said you can only learn at school, books are cheap and tutorials on the internet are nearing a number that is relatively infinite. Work hard and you will get where you want to be, school will never hurt your chances.
tl;dr; Get your degree
I'm also dutch, I'm not sure if you mean HBO or university. I only have experience with university. I recommend you to finish your degree.
1) If you would ever want to move abroad, having a degree (masters) makes it much easier to get a visa
2) Although the content seems impractical now, the intelectual challenge makes you highly analytics which helps you solve problems in your future job in a structed and faster pace.
3) You built up a network of peers who are interested in the same topic as you
4) If its easy, just take a part time job to pay for your rents. When I was studying I got this 250 euro government grant and in addition with my part time income I didn't need to take out a loan. 5) My grades where not spectacular, no one ever asked for them.
As for future career prospects, having a degree probably only matters when you are getting hired by people who have very little knowledge of who they actually need. If you are one of the best in your field with a name, I don't think it will matter. I'm personally getting contacted for job opportunities on a weekly base right now, so I don't worry too much about losing my job. But the key is to stay up-to-date with the latest trends in software development. If you lag behind with a CS degree it is much harder to get a job than if you have up-to-date knowledge in the technology that is in demand at that time without a degree.
I'm also dutch, I'm not sure if you mean HBO or university. I only have experience with university. I recommend you to finish your degree.
1) If you would ever want to move abroad, having a degree (masters) makes it much easier to get a visa
2) Although the content seems impractical now, the intelectual challenge makes you highly analytics which helps you solve problems in your future job in a structed and faster pace.
3) You built up a network of peers who are interested in the same topic as you
4) If its easy, just take a part time job to pay for your rents. When I was studying I got this 250 euro government grant and in addition with my part time income I didn't need to take out a loan. 5) My grades where not spectacular, no one ever asked for them.
As for future career prospects, having a degree probably only matters when you are getting hired by people who have very little knowledge of who they actually need. If you are one of the best in your field with a name, I don't think it will matter. I'm personally getting contacted for job opportunities on a weekly base right now, so I don't worry too much about losing my job. But the key is to stay up-to-date with the latest trends in software development. If you lag behind with a CS degree it is much harder to get a job than if you have up-to-date knowledge in the technology that is in demand at that time without a degree.
University is tough. That's why it is a rite of passage. Do you think that any job will be easier to get or less boring to do? Also by dropping out you'll be hampering your earning potential.
Keep it up. Find other subjects to whet your appetite. Learn new things and keep up with the boring stuff by finishing it early and quickly. Also you're in college. Have fun. Sow some wild oats. You have the rest of your life to sit in a desk thinking about how the grass is greener on the other side of the fence (it always is).
Keep it up. Find other subjects to whet your appetite. Learn new things and keep up with the boring stuff by finishing it early and quickly. Also you're in college. Have fun. Sow some wild oats. You have the rest of your life to sit in a desk thinking about how the grass is greener on the other side of the fence (it always is).
Getting the CS show others that you can accomplish things.
You could think that getting a CS it's not challenging enough (intellectually speaking). You might think it isn't teching you "real" stuff. But, it actually teachs you how to accomplish a long term race. It shows you to stand up when things get difficult.
Also, it teaches you to finish what you start. And that's a great lesson to be learned.
Hope this helps you to keep going.
You could think that getting a CS it's not challenging enough (intellectually speaking). You might think it isn't teching you "real" stuff. But, it actually teachs you how to accomplish a long term race. It shows you to stand up when things get difficult.
Also, it teaches you to finish what you start. And that's a great lesson to be learned.
Hope this helps you to keep going.
(The submission form won't let me go over 2000 characters. Oops.)
I should add another reason why I'm wary of getting a job now: I'm not exactly the kind of person who easily finds new friends. College basically forces me to have a certain amount of interaction with people you can become friends with. Getting a job forces interaction, too, but interacting with colleagues is very different.
I should add another reason why I'm wary of getting a job now: I'm not exactly the kind of person who easily finds new friends. College basically forces me to have a certain amount of interaction with people you can become friends with. Getting a job forces interaction, too, but interacting with colleagues is very different.
I would point out, having a degree makes it a lot easier to migrate to another country, if you choose to do so.
Treat it like a job; get all of your homework done 9-5, Monday thru Thursday. Forget about school entirely outside of these hours.
Source: I'm taking double the normal courseload while building a startup. You don't need to choose school vs. work, if you manage your time correctly.
Source: I'm taking double the normal courseload while building a startup. You don't need to choose school vs. work, if you manage your time correctly.
I would definitely stay in uni and get my degree if I were you.
I launched my business recently and I'm still in University. I'm in the penultimate year of the course but I still intend to graduate with honours unless work requires otherwise from me.
I launched my business recently and I'm still in University. I'm in the penultimate year of the course but I still intend to graduate with honours unless work requires otherwise from me.
Here's my situation: I'm currently in college, studying CS. While I do like the subject, I find that my motivation is lacking for the following reasons:
1.) Getting grades. I get why they exist, of course, but it completely demotivates me to know that most of my efforts go into trying to get a passing grade by trying to show exactly what a specific teacher wants me to show, instead of trying to actually understand a thing.
2.) While I like most courses, I don't feel I'm actually learning anything practical I can use at a job later.
3.) I may or may not have bipolar disorder. The jury's still out on this one.
4.) I'm racking up debt because of my student loans.
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. There are also some serious reasons why dropping out of college might not be such a good idea. To name the ones that've been bothering me the most:
1.) Obviously, I wouldn't have a degree, and while I've been programming since I was little, I'm not so certain about my career prospects. What would happen if I'm, say, 40, and lose my job: how would I find a new one? Would I even be able to find a job without a degree in the first place?
2.) I would prefer having my own house to living in a small apartment all my life, barely able to pay the rent. This is amplified by the fact that everyone in my family has a well-paying career. Also, getting an actual enjoyable career is probably easier with a degree in CS.
3.) Possible bipolar again. You can't drop out for a few weeks sometimes knowing that you'll make up for it before the final tests come around. Staying in college gives me a certain 'buffer' for when I feel blah. Not to mention that working 40 hours/week is much more than I'm used to.
If anyone has any advice, it would be much appreciated. :)
(I'm in the Netherlands, should people's advice apply to specific regions.)
tl;dr: I'm thinking of dropping out but am uncertain whether it's wise. Please help.