Ask HN: What job offers most free time?
I believe many of us don't have enough time for personal projects/startups because of the daytime jobs. Could we find us a job which would allow us to code during work hours? Some of the examples I was thinking of are a librarian, security guard or clerk at a shop that people rarely visit. Would you consider something like that yourself?
27 comments
> Some of the examples I was thinking of are a librarian, security guard or clerk at a shop that people rarely visit.
If you're a halfway decent programmer, you can easily get consulting gigs that will earn you multiples of what you will ever make at these jobs per unit of time.
You could do something like consult for a week and take the next three weeks to work on your project, or you could consult for a month and take the next few months off to work on your project. Your financial situation will be similar or better when compared to the low-paid jobs.
The low-paid grinder jobs you mention are definitely not worth doing in terms of money or time.
If you're a halfway decent programmer, you can easily get consulting gigs that will earn you multiples of what you will ever make at these jobs per unit of time.
You could do something like consult for a week and take the next three weeks to work on your project, or you could consult for a month and take the next few months off to work on your project. Your financial situation will be similar or better when compared to the low-paid jobs.
The low-paid grinder jobs you mention are definitely not worth doing in terms of money or time.
Where do I go get a consulting gig like this? I am indeed a halfway decent programmer, proficient in a variety of languages, frameworks & technologies. Get me some work like this and I'll pay you commission.
1. Go to any web development agency that sells to companies.
2. Show them a small portfolio of relevant work. The code should be clean and should solve a problem.
3. Tell them your availability. Something regular like 20 hours per week is probably more desirable, but some will take what they can get.
4. Invite them to "try before they buy" on a small paid gig. Ramp up size of projects as you gain trust.
5. If you are able to say things like "I am able to talk to customers and develop bespoke applications that solve their problems in an elegant way", expect to dictate your own terms and get rewarded handsomely (at least for someone not doing sales).
6. If the agency compares you to low-paid offshore programmers, you're talking to the wrong agency.
Keep in mind that most good agencies have more work than they can handle -- their bottleneck is on the "good and reliable developer" side.
Also note that they work may be incredibly boring -- but certainly no more boring than "sales clerk" or "security guard", and also certainly more lucrative.
> I am indeed a halfway decent programmer
Ask someone who pays programmers if they agree with this assessment. Most programmers I know tend to self-evaluate themselves a bit on the high side. Some folks may find that they have some programming idiosyncrasies that make their code less than ideal for anything other than personal projects that they themselves will maintain.
2. Show them a small portfolio of relevant work. The code should be clean and should solve a problem.
3. Tell them your availability. Something regular like 20 hours per week is probably more desirable, but some will take what they can get.
4. Invite them to "try before they buy" on a small paid gig. Ramp up size of projects as you gain trust.
5. If you are able to say things like "I am able to talk to customers and develop bespoke applications that solve their problems in an elegant way", expect to dictate your own terms and get rewarded handsomely (at least for someone not doing sales).
6. If the agency compares you to low-paid offshore programmers, you're talking to the wrong agency.
Keep in mind that most good agencies have more work than they can handle -- their bottleneck is on the "good and reliable developer" side.
Also note that they work may be incredibly boring -- but certainly no more boring than "sales clerk" or "security guard", and also certainly more lucrative.
> I am indeed a halfway decent programmer
Ask someone who pays programmers if they agree with this assessment. Most programmers I know tend to self-evaluate themselves a bit on the high side. Some folks may find that they have some programming idiosyncrasies that make their code less than ideal for anything other than personal projects that they themselves will maintain.
If you’re in a decent tech hotbed, start by interacting with the local community. Talk to other developers, agency owners, startup founders and see if you can offer them help. It’s a different dynamic than trying to find a consulting gig online and anecdotally I find it far easier to coney the value I bring to people than through a Skype call, thus being able to increase my rate.
Thanks for the nice reply. I will definitely check out some meetups.
I agree, but to gargarplex's point, it might be better amended to suggest that if you're a halfway decent _salesman_, you can easily get consulting gigs.
Otherwise one's liable to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for CL/freelancer site jobs.
Otherwise one's liable to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for CL/freelancer site jobs.
This is half correct. If you are the primary contractor, you need sales. If you subcontract to an agency (or something similar), you just need to be able to "sell" to other programmers. The rate is not nearly as good, but it's still _really_ good compared to "sales clerk".
There is money and time, but there's also stability. Companies don't hire developers for a month or two, at least where I come from and consulting requires lots of careful planning to keep a steady income. Plus, you need much more self-discipline to be self-employed, which I may lack.
Anyway, based on what I constantly hear on HN, freelancing may be overrated. I find it difficult to compete against Indian or Bangladeshi programmers, even when I can clearly provide much higher quality. Either clients don't understand what they are getting for the price or the project requires little competence anyway.
Anyway, based on what I constantly hear on HN, freelancing may be overrated. I find it difficult to compete against Indian or Bangladeshi programmers, even when I can clearly provide much higher quality. Either clients don't understand what they are getting for the price or the project requires little competence anyway.
> at least where I come from
Where are you from?
> Anyway, based on what I constantly hear on HN, freelancing may be overrated.
You and I must be reading a different HN. Running your own agency or consulting business if you're not a sales-oriented person may not be the best thing, but subcontracting to an agency is hardly sales-oriented.
Freelancing with an orientation towards very low-end commodity-type of gigs is fantastically bad. Don't do it. Focus on connecting with an agency that does programming work with businesses with revenues that would make your desired wages be a rounding error.
> I find it difficult to compete against Indian or Bangladeshi programmers, even when I can clearly provide much higher quality.
Hmmmm... Based on this comment, you might be limited by geography. If you are in the US, there are trivial things you can do that make it so that you are not competing against Indian or Bangladeshi programmers.
That said, even if you are in some far-off place and need to work remotely, good programmers are not easy to come by. The "cost" of being remote and unknown is that people who are looking for good programmers are often not willing to spend the time separating the wheat from the chaff. The solution to this is to do some quality work, post in on GitHub, and then show your work to agencies.
Where are you from?
> Anyway, based on what I constantly hear on HN, freelancing may be overrated.
You and I must be reading a different HN. Running your own agency or consulting business if you're not a sales-oriented person may not be the best thing, but subcontracting to an agency is hardly sales-oriented.
Freelancing with an orientation towards very low-end commodity-type of gigs is fantastically bad. Don't do it. Focus on connecting with an agency that does programming work with businesses with revenues that would make your desired wages be a rounding error.
> I find it difficult to compete against Indian or Bangladeshi programmers, even when I can clearly provide much higher quality.
Hmmmm... Based on this comment, you might be limited by geography. If you are in the US, there are trivial things you can do that make it so that you are not competing against Indian or Bangladeshi programmers.
That said, even if you are in some far-off place and need to work remotely, good programmers are not easy to come by. The "cost" of being remote and unknown is that people who are looking for good programmers are often not willing to spend the time separating the wheat from the chaff. The solution to this is to do some quality work, post in on GitHub, and then show your work to agencies.
I'm in Lithuania. Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely try contacting some consulting agencies or offering my service to businesses directly.
Sorry if I’m not quite answering the question. But you can also try consulting, continue what you’re doing now, and rebalance the three things that factor into this: time, income and expenses. So if you want to increase your discretionary time, you’ll need to charge clients more and/or reduce your expenses.
Unless you were seeking the novelty factor of trying out a new field, and assuming you’re a hacker, it seems you’d hit the ground running faster if you’d just switch how you earned your income or spend your money.
Unless you were seeking the novelty factor of trying out a new field, and assuming you’re a hacker, it seems you’d hit the ground running faster if you’d just switch how you earned your income or spend your money.
In college I worked as an overnight security guard. The only demand that job made was that I was in a certain building for 8 hours and stayed awake. Seriously, the turnover from guards fired for sleeping was a real issue, so just being awake was a big plus. Beyond that, I could read, study, whatever. Ideal for school. Coding during that time was possible, but you might not have internet access.
Hotel Night Auditor... gives about 5-6 hours free time per 8 hour shift... at night when then internet is slow and many programmers like to work...
Looks like you want something for nothing. No job is going to EVER give enough free time for you to pursue your interests to the fullest. I'm afraid you'll have to go about this in another way: Live below your means and work towards financial independence. Only then can you really pick and choose what you want to work on.
nighttime security guard
Find a job that only has 8 hours a day work expectation. It is rare nowadays, but possible.
underwear model
Software developer for a US university or local government agency.
The higher status or more rich you are, the less utility your job must provide, these low societal utility vocations afford more time precisely due to this fact; this is why programming is a relatively low status field.
* also, the value generated by high status jobs only need to occur in short bursts, only the value-per-time-unit is much higher; the skill required here will also be much harder to acquire and scarcer to find... one needs time and experience to get to this level.
* also, the value generated by high status jobs only need to occur in short bursts, only the value-per-time-unit is much higher; the skill required here will also be much harder to acquire and scarcer to find... one needs time and experience to get to this level.
and why so few women want to work in it.
My wife is a school librarian, and she has less free time than I do. If you're just a reference librarian, then possibly. But then you need to have your MLA in order to be called a librarian.
Leftorium Employeee
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basement dweller
To echo lots of comments here: it comes down to your value per unit of time, which is largely dictated by a combination of your own talent or outside market forces/good fortune.
I'm very fortunate to have reached a productivity/income level requiring me to work only 4-6 hours/week. I enjoy working more, but also love the free time to pursue outside hobbies, business ideas, pro-bono, etc. Once you reach a point where you set the price/terms, the sky's the limit!
I'm very fortunate to have reached a productivity/income level requiring me to work only 4-6 hours/week. I enjoy working more, but also love the free time to pursue outside hobbies, business ideas, pro-bono, etc. Once you reach a point where you set the price/terms, the sky's the limit!
In my experience working for your average corporation or government entity involves normal (and often flexible) hours, and can be as demanding or undemanding as you like. Throw in benefits and it's not the worst way to go.
It does entail taxing the same muscles you'd like to use for your own projects, but at a multiple of what you'd expect to be paid in the other fields mentioned. (And as has been said before, you could always "pay yourself first" by doing your own work before clocking in.)
It does entail taxing the same muscles you'd like to use for your own projects, but at a multiple of what you'd expect to be paid in the other fields mentioned. (And as has been said before, you could always "pay yourself first" by doing your own work before clocking in.)
I'd absolutely love to work for a software development agency that only expected 20-30 hours per week on average. It seems like there has to be jobs like that as an alternative to security guard, hotel auditor, or food service.