>"Actually, the environment is what gets cleaned up as people are lifted out of poverty (which globalism accomplishes better than anything else). See reforestation of Europe, the post-industrial USA, and now even China tackling a severe pollution problem. People need the ability to provide food before they worry about the rest."
What I was asking is what was the price that the planet payed to bring China to the place it is now? (What has NAFTA done to the earth?) Was it worth it? Next is India ETC. This planet cannot bear globalism for another 20 years. It's rate is increasing, and the pollution output of up and coming countries will drive us over the edge. Why are environmentalists often also globalists? That is simply illogical.
>"If you haven't noticed, goods from there and many other developing countries are no longer "cheap crap", it also means that US consumer dollars go much farther. US citizens get more for less, and can allocate more resources away from spending on necessities (or deal with the rising healthcare benefit costs often depressing their wage growth -- though thats another problem)"
No, most of it is Cheap crap that we hang on our walls of disposable toys we give to our kids. Materialism is rampant in America. Look at the landfills, Look at Thrift stores, Look at peoples garages and attics. People have 5x the amount of clothes, and stuff that they will ever use or need. This is what I am referring to.
>"Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years"
What does that even mean? Farmers who lived happily off of the land, and had little use for much currency were in poverty. Now they live in a pollution filled death trap and work with no sunlight in a soul-crushing factory job. Is that an improvement in the quality of their lives? Poverty is a very misleading term that is too often used politically.
You aren't answering the moral dilemma except to say that it takes time and that it could be worse. Well that isn't good enough for me. Our behavior is enabling people to be jailed or killed if they want to do things that anyone can do in a Free country. You are downplaying, or not addressing the rest of my concerns. I am not at all convinced that globalism has been a positive thing in the world. All the pollution, all the exploitation, empowering countries that wish to do us harm economically and politically if it benefits them (these are not our friends). Destroying the planet? How can one justify this?
Kia had virtually no race cars in the US till 2011. Well after they were established in the consumer market. Rally races aren't statistically even a thing here (most US consumers know little or nothing about them).
I have told troopers that they are rude and doing unnecessary things (when they actually have). I don't mouth off at them or start throwing expletives. How can you be uncivil and not expect trouble anywhere in life? It's called consequences. If your boss at work makes a decision that pisses you off, can you just go off on him and expect to still work there? My guess would be no.
Don't be shitty to people and people usually won't be shitty to you. If they are anyway, put the recorded dash-cam event on YouTube and they will get fired.
So we should boycott american companies for the democracy seeking missions of our government How does that make sense? If you don't like what our leaders are doing, vote and campaign for someone else. That isn't an option for the Chinese people (at least not for those who like to live). The government will only change if they feel a pain in their pocketbook.
This is a very fair point. There are so many things that go unmentioned when discussing the consequences (current and long term) of globalism. Particularly a nation state such as China.
Here are a few I can think of:
1. Mass global pollution. Not only transporting materials, but largely unregulated environmental destruction. What would the pollution levels look like today without NAFTA ETC? I muse at how the most ardent environmentalists (pushing for environmental regulation in California ETC) are also often the biggest globalists. A clean planet and Globalism have been proven in the last 25 years to be mutually exclusive.
2. The morality issue that was raised. We have unions and social justice warriors in this country fighting for higher minimum wage, living wage, cheap/free health care, open borders to refugees and any in need, Freedoms of every sort. Politicians run campaigns and voters vote for people because of this stuff, yet they buy 80% of their merchandise from countries that treat their people like human garbage and 20+% of their produce and services from companies employing illegals (who treat them like garbage). What does that say about us? We are virtue seeking people, which boycotting China and other groups doesn't currently recognize? Do we only fight for peoples rights and well being when it won't cost us cheap crap from Walmart or cause the businessman that exploitative but lucrative offshore business. Or do we care only about the plight of US Minorities, but not the far worse off people in China. Our poorest 10% are far freer and better off economically and medically than 90% of them you know? Don't start stating fabricated census garbage to me. I am close friends with people who grew up there and have heard first hand how poor most factory workers are there. Every US citizen with half a heart should be appalled and demanding that we boycott China until they start to treat their people with a shred of human dignity. Their leaders see the citizens there as nothing more than disposable drones who's only mission is to deliver ever more power to the top.
3. We have enabled China to become a world power. People laugh at the thought of China being a military threat to the US. Are you kidding? Do you know the raw manufacturing power of that country? Do you realize that the next war will be fought and won with Drones? (in the millions or perhaps tens of millions). So who do you think can outlast the other? Manufacturing and innovation has always won wars. Good segway...
4. Innovation and intellectual property.
So I don't know if you have noticed this, but all of our technology seems to leak out and end up all over China. They clone everything. Are they just really good at reverse engineering things? Well yes, but often they steal (helped by their own government) from us (high tech espionage). They produce counterfeits that compete with out own designed products and flood our own market with them. They even combine stolen research and create superior products to ours. They stole Nuke technology from us for crying out loud, and we just shrugged... Why can't we hold them accountable for these things? When Google was over there, they tried to steal all of their tech at the time. They do it to everybody. When it comes to dealings with other countries, they are lawless. Their own government conspires against us along with wealthy business owners.
5. They manipulate their own currency to force out factories out of existence. Since they don't care about how impoverished their work force is, they can outlast any competitor. Many factories move abroad because of this (just to compete).
6. Since we pay them with American currency, they often buy up our countries bonds, companies, real estate, ETC. How is it good that we have become so dependent on a rouge and untrustworthy, immoral state who owns much of our property and debt?
Is it really worth all that cheap crap we have sitting around in our closets, attics and garages (not to mention landfills) for all of this?
Someone please tell me all the benefits of globalism (particularly with China). Make a convincing argument FOR globalism please.
What I was asking is what was the price that the planet payed to bring China to the place it is now? (What has NAFTA done to the earth?) Was it worth it? Next is India ETC. This planet cannot bear globalism for another 20 years. It's rate is increasing, and the pollution output of up and coming countries will drive us over the edge. Why are environmentalists often also globalists? That is simply illogical.
>"If you haven't noticed, goods from there and many other developing countries are no longer "cheap crap", it also means that US consumer dollars go much farther. US citizens get more for less, and can allocate more resources away from spending on necessities (or deal with the rising healthcare benefit costs often depressing their wage growth -- though thats another problem)"
No, most of it is Cheap crap that we hang on our walls of disposable toys we give to our kids. Materialism is rampant in America. Look at the landfills, Look at Thrift stores, Look at peoples garages and attics. People have 5x the amount of clothes, and stuff that they will ever use or need. This is what I am referring to.
>"Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years"
What does that even mean? Farmers who lived happily off of the land, and had little use for much currency were in poverty. Now they live in a pollution filled death trap and work with no sunlight in a soul-crushing factory job. Is that an improvement in the quality of their lives? Poverty is a very misleading term that is too often used politically.
You aren't answering the moral dilemma except to say that it takes time and that it could be worse. Well that isn't good enough for me. Our behavior is enabling people to be jailed or killed if they want to do things that anyone can do in a Free country. You are downplaying, or not addressing the rest of my concerns. I am not at all convinced that globalism has been a positive thing in the world. All the pollution, all the exploitation, empowering countries that wish to do us harm economically and politically if it benefits them (these are not our friends). Destroying the planet? How can one justify this?