Twitch nabs exclusive streaming deal with Blizzard for e-sports events(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Twitch nabs exclusive streaming deal with Blizzard for e-sports events
https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/20/twitch-nabs-exclusive-streaming-deal-with-blizzard-for-20-major-esports-events
197 comments
We care a lot about stream quality at Twitch. Can I ask where you're watching from that you get so many stutters? That's a key metric we measure ("buffer empties per hour"), so I know for a fact it's not high everywhere.
My primary problem with twitch streams is that even though I can easily get all the 1080p60 bytes onto my machine, the bloody web player can't keep up. My fans spin at max speed, and eventually it starts dropping frames.
Contrast that to running it in unstream (the windows app). Absolutely no problems. Hell I'm pretty sure my iphone can run the Source level streams better than Chrome on my macbook pro.
Contrast that to running it in unstream (the windows app). Absolutely no problems. Hell I'm pretty sure my iphone can run the Source level streams better than Chrome on my macbook pro.
Not too long ago I did a check, was doing Twitch on Chrome / Macbook, and the thing just drained power. Turns out they were still using a Flash player, with a HTML5 player - which worked just fine and at a fraction of the power usage - an optional beta feature that I only managed to somehow activate using the browser's dev tools.
I hope the html5 player is the standard now.
I hope the html5 player is the standard now.
Yes, the HTML5 player is now standard; Flash is only used as a fallback if HTML5 is not available.
Try Streamlink! Then you can watch the stream through VLC or any other player.
I'm not sure what the state of hardware accelerated video on OSX is, but at least on Linux Firefox doesn't support hardware decoding while Chromium does, and that leads to a 20% vs 5-10% CPU usage while watching Twitch source streams for me.
I live in San Jose.
I'll say this much: I appreciate that you tried to release 1080p60, but I am yet to see it succeed. I was watching the "Clash for Cash" between Virtus.Pro and Astralis the other day (Friday?), and it was in 1080p60 on both YT and Twitch.
I eventually left your service to go to YouTube to watch there, because it was stuttering to the point of un-watchability on Twitch, and buttery smooth on YT.
I'll say this much: I appreciate that you tried to release 1080p60, but I am yet to see it succeed. I was watching the "Clash for Cash" between Virtus.Pro and Astralis the other day (Friday?), and it was in 1080p60 on both YT and Twitch.
I eventually left your service to go to YouTube to watch there, because it was stuttering to the point of un-watchability on Twitch, and buttery smooth on YT.
unless you're talking about mobile you can use streamlink (or livestreamer) + mpv (or vlc) and all your problems will go away
you might need to tweak the config a bit
I gave up using Twitch on a browser, it just sucks (and they keep adding more bloat, weird page refreshes that often load the videos twice, notifications that I have to close every single time unless I'm keeping their cookies permanently)
you might need to tweak the config a bit
I gave up using Twitch on a browser, it just sucks (and they keep adding more bloat, weird page refreshes that often load the videos twice, notifications that I have to close every single time unless I'm keeping their cookies permanently)
Those stutter too all the time, chunks of video get skipped, etc. If your link to twitch is not good enough, `livestreamer` won't help very much. Though this is infinitely better than twitch player that can't even hide its controls reliably.
I don't know the technical details but for me and everybody else I ever recommended it always fixes the stutters. Multiple ISPs and computers were tested too. Maybe it's because I'm not from the US?
One thing I'm sure is that it uses way less CPU and helps with my ISP throttling because anything 720p60 and above is a problem if I'm using a browser.
There are options to modify the buffer, reconnect and more but I almost never change my config except for hls-live-edge like once a year (for something that is not Twitch).
One thing I'm sure is that it uses way less CPU and helps with my ISP throttling because anything 720p60 and above is a problem if I'm using a browser.
There are options to modify the buffer, reconnect and more but I almost never change my config except for hls-live-edge like once a year (for something that is not Twitch).
For me, it's not stuttering but rather YouTube streams perform better given the same quality setting. For example, my connection sometimes fails to smoothly serve 1080p60 on Twitch yet handles YouTube's 1080p60 pretty well.
My consistent experience is that Twitch's video quality isn't as crisp as Youtube's for a given bitrate particularly around the 480-720 region, which is important for me when watching something like Dota on my TV. Although I have a ~5.5Mbit connection, I've sometimes noticed times when 720p will buffer on Twitch but not on Youtube due to my internet being right on the tipping point of being able to stream each. Right now it's holding up fine, pulling ~450KB/sec for 720p60. I'm in Brisbane, Australia.
When the Dota International is on in August, I encourage you to boot up both Youtube and Twitch side by side and have a look at the visual quality at certain bitrates.
When the Dota International is on in August, I encourage you to boot up both Youtube and Twitch side by side and have a look at the visual quality at certain bitrates.
I'm also Australian, and cannot watch 720p60 on Twitch. 16mbps downstream over ADSL2+ in Melbourne.
720p60 is fine on YouTube. 1080p60 on YouTube will stutter depending on what my girlfriend is doing on the Internet, but is watchable if I'm home alone.
Anything over 720p60 won't even try to start playing on Twitch.
720p60 is fine on YouTube. 1080p60 on YouTube will stutter depending on what my girlfriend is doing on the Internet, but is watchable if I'm home alone.
Anything over 720p60 won't even try to start playing on Twitch.
I'm one of the Lucky Few who have real NBN (100mbit down). YouTube 1080p60 is fine, but Twitch and Mixer seem to be coming from Hong Kong and stutter / drop out.
I think one huge difference between Twitch and YouTube is that the CEO of Twitch will still personally respond to someone on HN when they have troubles streaming :'D
For some reason, your website interface is the problem, both on firefox and chrome for me. I know it's the website and not my connection because apps like Orion are able to play your streams at the highest bandwidth setting flawlessly for me.
Already-open pages are supposed to start playing when the streamer goes live, right? Because it's been very consistently not doing that.
I live in South Africa. I can stream 1080p from YouTube with no issues, but Twitch is usually one of two outcomes: stuttering/lag across all browsers or, since the auto quality feature has been implemented, jumping between 720p and 144p, constantly adjusting quality.
Occasionally I can watch 720p just fine, but this is rare. I've resorted to watching tournaments like TI on YouTube, with the Twitch chat popped out for extra entertainment.
Occasionally I can watch 720p just fine, but this is rare. I've resorted to watching tournaments like TI on YouTube, with the Twitch chat popped out for extra entertainment.
I live in South Africa and have the same experience.
I have tried to watch the LoL LCS numerous times using Twitch over the years, with stuttering/lag making it unwatchable.
I solely watch it on Youtube now.
I have tried to watch the LoL LCS numerous times using Twitch over the years, with stuttering/lag making it unwatchable.
I solely watch it on Youtube now.
Same in Belarus (but both iPad and PS4 Twitch apps handle 720p just fine on the same network).
Same in Australia (except with 100 mbps down)
Google UX design in general, across all their products, is user hostile garbage. Obsessed with minimalism, taking away options and features, shoehorning everything into cross-product bland design themes, cross promoting products, preferring algorithms over humans, basically designed with Google's interests above the user's everytime.
I like their current Maps app on Android a lot. Especially compared to Waze. It has a habit of popping up contextual info at the right time, and always seems to have way more data on any given location that I am 100% comfortable with, but am thankful its there anyway.
Given, that is the exception. They just - for some bizarre reason - broke their own material design guidelines in the youtube app by moving the tabs bar to the bottom and coloring it white like its an iOS app. It is now a disgusting blemish on the UI, makes no sense, isn't ergonomic at all, and violated their own design rules. And they didn't even add anything with it. They just moved the bar for no good reason and infinite bad ones.
The later seems to be way more the status quo than the former, sadly. The designers at Google seem to be locked into one project, and then they overengineer and reinvent the app every single year to justify their jobs, while breaking UX and alienating users.
I hope I am not jinxing Google Maps here - it got overhauled like two years ago into its current state. If its "due" to be redesigned from scratch again, and they break or take away a majority of the features that make it useful now, I'm going to be sad, because there is no real competitor to the density of information Google has.
Given, that is the exception. They just - for some bizarre reason - broke their own material design guidelines in the youtube app by moving the tabs bar to the bottom and coloring it white like its an iOS app. It is now a disgusting blemish on the UI, makes no sense, isn't ergonomic at all, and violated their own design rules. And they didn't even add anything with it. They just moved the bar for no good reason and infinite bad ones.
The later seems to be way more the status quo than the former, sadly. The designers at Google seem to be locked into one project, and then they overengineer and reinvent the app every single year to justify their jobs, while breaking UX and alienating users.
I hope I am not jinxing Google Maps here - it got overhauled like two years ago into its current state. If its "due" to be redesigned from scratch again, and they break or take away a majority of the features that make it useful now, I'm going to be sad, because there is no real competitor to the density of information Google has.
That's interesting, I wonder if Google Maps is different on iOS, where I use it – I find it utterly infuriating. Like most of us I'm plenty tech savvy and have used Google Maps since its inception. Using the latest app is the only time I ever barbarically scream at my phone. It does maddening things like make the "place info" pane (store info, hours, etc.) impossible to get back to if I do something like pan around the map a little (to see what else is near my destination) – so I have to cancel the entire search and start over just to get it back...somehow the obvious action of tapping the goddamn waypoint marker doesn't do it. There's also something that happens when navigation is active that makes the stop/X button completely disappear with no obvious way to get it back; I have to re-discover it every time after yelling at my phone for a minute to shut up/stop navigating. Just thinking about this app pisses me off. There are a dozen other little things. It's so bad.
As someone who switched from Android to iOS in the last year or so but who tries to remain in the google sphere of apps, they mostly all feel like they are 2-3 years behind the equivalent Google versions. A lot of that comes down to iOS not treating google apps/services as first-class citizens and the lack of interoperability between the different apps that are baked into android, but the apps themselves also suffer.
That being said, there are very few (are there any?) other companies out there that would be capable of creating as much parity across platforms as Google has, so even though there are still problems, I still salute them for their efforts.
That being said, there are very few (are there any?) other companies out there that would be capable of creating as much parity across platforms as Google has, so even though there are still problems, I still salute them for their efforts.
Not that it makes the practice any better but the bottom navigation bar is in fact part of Material Design: https://material.io/guidelines/components/bottom-navigation..... It is also used in Google+ and Google Photos. The bottom-nav-vs-no-bottom-nav design trend seems to reverse frequently though. The bottom bar will probably be removed again in a year or two.
Maps is already garbage. It should never pop up extra information during navigation, it's dangerous. I manually pick routes a lot. Sometimes they're not there fastest. While I'm driving, it will constantly tells me it found a faster route, and the only way to stop it from switching is to hit a button.
I actually like algorithms over users. Governments and businesses have time and time again asked Google to censor this, make exception that, etc - and they have given in here and there, but in a lot of cases they've been able to shift the blame from people to The Algorithm. As in, if the algorithm thinks your competitor's site is more relevant than your own, stop whining and make a better website (for example).
I wanted to forward a mail in the gmail app just now and accidentally hit "ignore" while looking for the option.
Took me 15 minutes to find the damn thing again. :p
Took me 15 minutes to find the damn thing again. :p
I've found that third party applications like Orion are far better UI wise than Twitch. The twitch web interface always felt clunky to me. I don't know how they managed to mess up the interface but Orion (a desktop app) plays the video streams far better with no weird lags or stutters.
You can get the source here: https://github.com/alamminsalo/orion
or just google "Orion Twitch" if you want compiled binaries.
I have no affiliation with Orion, just a satisfied user.
You can get the source here: https://github.com/alamminsalo/orion
or just google "Orion Twitch" if you want compiled binaries.
I have no affiliation with Orion, just a satisfied user.
The only complaint I have against the twitch UI is recent, and that's the idiotic "unread message" indicator every time I log on trying to sell me prime. No. Fuck off. At this point I'm less likely to buy prime because of this.
Other than that it does everything I want. Shows me all the active streams of a game I like, lets me follow people I like and get alerts when they're streaming. And the video content plays pretty well. My main remaining complaint is that they'll run adverts over active content - which is infuriating.
Other than that it does everything I want. Shows me all the active streams of a game I like, lets me follow people I like and get alerts when they're streaming. And the video content plays pretty well. My main remaining complaint is that they'll run adverts over active content - which is infuriating.
One huge advantage YouTube has over Twitch is that it ties your existing YT channel to the streaming UI. So for instance, when a huge YT personality like pewdiepie streams, his subscribers will be notified directly and don't need to go to another website to watch and participate in the chat. Also, AFAIK, YouTube has a donation and subscriber system in place so YouTubers can earn more while they stream.
The Youtube notifications are absolutely terrible though. They stick around after the streamer is done, so every time I open YouTube I get notifications like "someone is live!" when the stream ended 8 hours ago.
They stick around because by default ended streams hang around as a video and so you can watch it after the fact. Maybe they need to update the notifications so it can say "someone was live x hours ago"
Yeah but you don't seem to get notifications for people just uploading a plain old video either (at least not by default, unless I accidentally changed something).
I think there is a little bell icon next to the subscription button. If you check it videos send notification too. There is an option somewhere where you can choose which things send you notifications.
Are you sure that CS:GO isn't just a less popular game than it used to be? At least on the esports scene?
Given the absolute minimal user flow needed to watch a livestream, I find it hard to believe that people suddenly can't find tournament streams when there's already extremely limited options to do so.
Given the absolute minimal user flow needed to watch a livestream, I find it hard to believe that people suddenly can't find tournament streams when there's already extremely limited options to do so.
I might be in minority, but at least I do not follow any tournament schedules. If I want to watch live stream I just pop over at Twitch and see what's on.
This is exactly what I did. I never go to YouTube to see what is on it is too hard to find what I want.
This comment thread is the only reason I know everything had moved to YouTube... I had been wondering where the hell all of the tournaments had gone for the last few months... Open Twitch, click CS:GO, see if there's anything on has been my flow for 2+ years.
Accepting my claim I've been watching for 1 year, when I got into it was slightly more popular than it is now, and during the middle of that time it did hit a very high peak [0].
>Given the absolute minimal user flow needed to watch a livestream
That's the whole point: it was previously 100% effortless. If livestreams were on, they were on Twitch. You would go to twitch.tv, click the icon for CSGO which was 100% guaranteed to be on the front page, and the top streams were talented/personable professional players and/or tournaments with significant prize pools.
After the deal ESL signed to start streaming CSGO on YouTube, the friction to finding a stream drastically increased (because it had previously been a URL navigation and two clicks until you were watching a stream). Then, YouTube's awful discoverability and UI/UX compounded the problem of finding streams on the new, secondary source, but that's assuming you actually knew the streams moved to YouTube and didn't just start going to Twitch and finding drastically less content, and gradually stop watching.
Now, I'm not going to pretend my words are gospel or anything, but it's of serious consideration that the aforementioned peak popularity occurred in mid-January, very close to when ESL started streaming on YouTube exclusively (Feb 7 being the actual date [1]). Of course, there was a major tournament during this time as well, but this was a great tournament that you wouldn't expect to drive population numbers down so drastically as they fell off afterwards.
For context: ESL is a very large player in the CS:GO scene, hosting plenty of tournaments, the most popular online league, and even Major tournaments (of which there are only a few a year with increased prize pools, the highest level of competition, additional other revenue for teams, and, less quantifiably, prestige for winning).
[0]: http://steamcharts.com/app/730#1y [1]: http://en.pro.eslgaming.com/csgo/proleague/news/csgo-pro-lea...
>Given the absolute minimal user flow needed to watch a livestream
That's the whole point: it was previously 100% effortless. If livestreams were on, they were on Twitch. You would go to twitch.tv, click the icon for CSGO which was 100% guaranteed to be on the front page, and the top streams were talented/personable professional players and/or tournaments with significant prize pools.
After the deal ESL signed to start streaming CSGO on YouTube, the friction to finding a stream drastically increased (because it had previously been a URL navigation and two clicks until you were watching a stream). Then, YouTube's awful discoverability and UI/UX compounded the problem of finding streams on the new, secondary source, but that's assuming you actually knew the streams moved to YouTube and didn't just start going to Twitch and finding drastically less content, and gradually stop watching.
Now, I'm not going to pretend my words are gospel or anything, but it's of serious consideration that the aforementioned peak popularity occurred in mid-January, very close to when ESL started streaming on YouTube exclusively (Feb 7 being the actual date [1]). Of course, there was a major tournament during this time as well, but this was a great tournament that you wouldn't expect to drive population numbers down so drastically as they fell off afterwards.
For context: ESL is a very large player in the CS:GO scene, hosting plenty of tournaments, the most popular online league, and even Major tournaments (of which there are only a few a year with increased prize pools, the highest level of competition, additional other revenue for teams, and, less quantifiably, prestige for winning).
[0]: http://steamcharts.com/app/730#1y [1]: http://en.pro.eslgaming.com/csgo/proleague/news/csgo-pro-lea...
I am not disputing what you say, but for future reference you can create a bookmark that goes straight to the CS:GO channel. Or follow the channel so it's on your follow list all the time.
I do agree that the split has impacted CS:GO, but a few new releases have shaken up the top tiers. (Player Unknown's Battlegrounds for instance.)
I do agree that the split has impacted CS:GO, but a few new releases have shaken up the top tiers. (Player Unknown's Battlegrounds for instance.)
Youtube's streaming is so laughable that youtubers will upload a video announcing that they are live on Twitch.
The actual player on youtube streaming is wonderful. I can pause, rewind thirty seconds, watch that chunk again, then set my speed to 1.25x to catch up. You can't do that with twitch. You also can't show up 5 minutes late and watch from the start; anything between live and one-hour-delayed is a terrible experience.
Indeed. Also, the player is everywhere. YouTube tech seems better on this side, but it's only one half of the equation.
Laughable in what sense?
The feeling I've gotten is from watching both is that I prefer YouTube for the actual watching (streaming just seems to work better, especially with being able to rewind live streams).
But I still prefer twitch for discoverablity and just easier navigation. YouTube Gaming[0] works ok (though most people don't even know it exists), but they try to blend live and past events too much for me.
[0] http://gaming.youtube.com
The feeling I've gotten is from watching both is that I prefer YouTube for the actual watching (streaming just seems to work better, especially with being able to rewind live streams).
But I still prefer twitch for discoverablity and just easier navigation. YouTube Gaming[0] works ok (though most people don't even know it exists), but they try to blend live and past events too much for me.
[0] http://gaming.youtube.com
I enjoy twitch, even support a few streamers. Note, if you have Amazon Prime and a twitch account you can support a steamer for free.
Twitch did make a good move and similar to you I like watching better players at some of the games I have enjoyed. Yet for me the best feature of Twitch is to let me see some games I have yet to purchase to see if I would enjoy them.
Twitch did make a good move and similar to you I like watching better players at some of the games I have enjoyed. Yet for me the best feature of Twitch is to let me see some games I have yet to purchase to see if I would enjoy them.
> YouTube's discoverability is horrible
The is pretty much my opinion as well. Fortunately I use HLTV.org to find out where the games are streamed but yeah, this is the main problem with YouTube as it is right now.
It also misses the Clip feature where you can export a part of the stream as a video to share with others.
The player is great though, you can fast forward, rewind 30 seconds, it performs amazing even on low performance machine/connections.
The is pretty much my opinion as well. Fortunately I use HLTV.org to find out where the games are streamed but yeah, this is the main problem with YouTube as it is right now.
It also misses the Clip feature where you can export a part of the stream as a video to share with others.
The player is great though, you can fast forward, rewind 30 seconds, it performs amazing even on low performance machine/connections.
Agreed, it's interesting that competitive differentiation can succeed based on having the lowest UX friction. Google knows how to optimize performance, but design can trump performance in certain areas. Certainly, Amazon knows how to make a performant site, but it's their adherence to customer experience that gives Twitch the edge here. My money is on Twitch.
Can you explain more about this "Live Now" - is that a YT icon or an uploader icon that goes on their videos?
It's a YT Icon that displays under live streams. The problem is, at least specifically in CS:GO, one of the companies who signed an exclusivity deal with YT loves to air reruns; this leads to YT recommending me to watch CS:GO that is LIVE NOW that is actually just a rerun being live-streamed by that company.
I guess you can see how that's not entirely YT's fault, but that doesn't make the end-user experience any better.
I guess you can see how that's not entirely YT's fault, but that doesn't make the end-user experience any better.
That was the same deal on twitch though with that group.
The last paragraph of this is the most valuable part of the TL;DR. Thank you for sharing anyway
Who watches twitch?
I mean this seriously; not as a dig. Why be exclusive when everyone knows youtube? I may even watch a video if i see it when browsing.
But who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play games for fun? How can you build a hugely expensive business off this? Is it all basically advertising for video games funded by companies?
I mean this seriously; not as a dig. Why be exclusive when everyone knows youtube? I may even watch a video if i see it when browsing.
But who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play games for fun? How can you build a hugely expensive business off this? Is it all basically advertising for video games funded by companies?
Millions of people do? I do. There's a few reasons I do:
* Streamers connect with their audiences, I can chat with them live - ask questions about the game or technique
* Streamers are entertainers. They joke, cry, rage with you. They are engaging people.
* Community. I'm a subscriber to person X, so are you!
* Skill. Streamers are often the best in the world at their games.
* Can't play now. Cooking? Folding laundry? Watch some twitch.
* Events. Exports, and charity events like games done quick are amazing.
* Discoverability. Finding a new game or a new streamer for a game I like is super easy.
How do you build a business? Some streamers have thousands of people paying them $5 a month. Twitch takes a cut. They show ads, they collect donations, they sell in game products and the games themselves. (Twitch splits the revenue for those with their streamers. ) It's powered by viewers and ad revenue, is what I'd guess.
* Streamers connect with their audiences, I can chat with them live - ask questions about the game or technique
* Streamers are entertainers. They joke, cry, rage with you. They are engaging people.
* Community. I'm a subscriber to person X, so are you!
* Skill. Streamers are often the best in the world at their games.
* Can't play now. Cooking? Folding laundry? Watch some twitch.
* Events. Exports, and charity events like games done quick are amazing.
* Discoverability. Finding a new game or a new streamer for a game I like is super easy.
How do you build a business? Some streamers have thousands of people paying them $5 a month. Twitch takes a cut. They show ads, they collect donations, they sell in game products and the games themselves. (Twitch splits the revenue for those with their streamers. ) It's powered by viewers and ad revenue, is what I'd guess.
Ahah! So it's kind of like podcasting meets a "let's play"; makes sense.
But with real-time chat with the content creator!
How can you chat with your streamer when the live chat feed is a massive spam box due to the sheer volume of users? Unless of course you're watching the lesser known streamers.
Steamers shape their communities. Even with 10k people watching, some have very civil chats.
Subscriber only mode on chat cuts back on the spam.
Yes, it's advertising.
A lot of popular games on Twitch are competitive games. Many amateur players watch skillful or professional players to increase their own skills.
Others watch the same way many people watch sporting teams compete. "who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play games for fun".. I suppose you haven't heard of the Superbowl, which sells ads for $5million USD
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/super-b...
A lot of popular games on Twitch are competitive games. Many amateur players watch skillful or professional players to increase their own skills.
Others watch the same way many people watch sporting teams compete. "who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play games for fun".. I suppose you haven't heard of the Superbowl, which sells ads for $5million USD
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/02/super-b...
I'm 22 and have been watching twitch very regularly since I started college in 2013. I think my age group is the main demographic twitch targets, and I can say myself and many of my friends watch for the streamers and community more than the games themselves. Lirik, a streamer I have watched for years, is someone I would watch play literally any game due to how entertaining his personality is.
May be anecdotal, but many of my friends have the same mindset. Besides watching competitive eSports tournaments for specific games, usually someone will have a few streamers they will watch play anything.
May be anecdotal, but many of my friends have the same mindset. Besides watching competitive eSports tournaments for specific games, usually someone will have a few streamers they will watch play anything.
You watch Lirik!?!? Come on man watch a R E A L streamer like GiantWaffle... People like you probably only have 908 friends on Facebook, like "wolf packs" and work for networking companies TriHard. Get on my level and call me :^)
For real though Twitch is <3 KappaPride
For real though Twitch is <3 KappaPride
This comment was hilariously miscalculated.
Do you watch professional sports (football, basketball, etc)?
Watching competitive video games (starcraft 2 is my favorite) has a similar appeal, to me. If you don't watch any sports, than the appeal of esports may not make sense to you.
Of course, twitch is bigger than esports, but each viewer category has their own needs & content that fills them.
Watching competitive video games (starcraft 2 is my favorite) has a similar appeal, to me. If you don't watch any sports, than the appeal of esports may not make sense to you.
Of course, twitch is bigger than esports, but each viewer category has their own needs & content that fills them.
Lots of people watch Twitch. I'm a Starcraft fan and it's basically the only service I would use to watch streams. I might float over to YouTube if a user has a show, someone like Day[9].
Regarding ads there's a few different ways it happens. Sometimes the stream itself will have ads, this is most noticable with Korean content when they start putting up ads for Korean ISPs or mobile apps. The other way ads happen is through the Twitch platform itself and these are what you're most likely used to seeing on YouTube. Targeting is okay but not the best, solvable problem though.
eSports might seem like a joke still but I guarantee that a lot of people don't feel that way and follow them in the same way that football teams are followed. It's entertainment like any other.
Regarding ads there's a few different ways it happens. Sometimes the stream itself will have ads, this is most noticable with Korean content when they start putting up ads for Korean ISPs or mobile apps. The other way ads happen is through the Twitch platform itself and these are what you're most likely used to seeing on YouTube. Targeting is okay but not the best, solvable problem though.
eSports might seem like a joke still but I guarantee that a lot of people don't feel that way and follow them in the same way that football teams are followed. It's entertainment like any other.
It's just fun. It's not more complicated than that.
There's the trope of the younger sibling watching the older one play games, and it turns out that a lot of people enjoy that. You can watch for loads of different reasons:
* High-quality gameplay. Some of the most talented people in e-sports regularly stream, and most of the popular streamers are quite good generally.
* Introduction to games and critique. I definitely use Twitch to decide which games I'll buy and play.
* Streamer personalities. A lot of the streamers are very very good at what they do. They are funny and entertaining, can tell stories, and generally cultivate a community around their stream. They play off the drama of what they play (a big part of why battle royale games are so popular). It's weird how much watching a stream can feel like hanging out with friends.
It's one of those things where you might not understand unless you give it a try, and certainly not everyone will love it, but it's so damn compelling. I predict really big things for Twitch.
There's the trope of the younger sibling watching the older one play games, and it turns out that a lot of people enjoy that. You can watch for loads of different reasons:
* High-quality gameplay. Some of the most talented people in e-sports regularly stream, and most of the popular streamers are quite good generally.
* Introduction to games and critique. I definitely use Twitch to decide which games I'll buy and play.
* Streamer personalities. A lot of the streamers are very very good at what they do. They are funny and entertaining, can tell stories, and generally cultivate a community around their stream. They play off the drama of what they play (a big part of why battle royale games are so popular). It's weird how much watching a stream can feel like hanging out with friends.
It's one of those things where you might not understand unless you give it a try, and certainly not everyone will love it, but it's so damn compelling. I predict really big things for Twitch.
I think it's more of an audience targeting thing, I'd guess there's not many people who are into competitive games and unaware of twitch.
For me personally, I watched twitch pretty regularly when Starcraft 2 was popular, to learn tips and tricks from players better than myself. It was more akin to watching game film than entertainment content to me.
For me personally, I watched twitch pretty regularly when Starcraft 2 was popular, to learn tips and tricks from players better than myself. It was more akin to watching game film than entertainment content to me.
When I was heavily into playing Hearthstone, I would regularly watch streams of players with better-than-average skill. It filled a niche for me, watching them judge circumstances and make good plays.
I did the same with Overwatch, only to a much lesser extent - I personally didn't like what was available at the time.
I did the same with Overwatch, only to a much lesser extent - I personally didn't like what was available at the time.
I am confused about your purpose in this comment.
>Who watches twitch?
This is easy enough to answer; gamers / game enthusiasts.
But then you confound it by asking:
>Why be exclusive when everyone knows youtube?
I don't really follow at this point. I thought my post covered that; Twitch has great discoverability of live content, and so if I am trying to watch a CS:GO tournament, and they're all going to be on Twitch, I'll go to Twitch and watch...
If you're asking from a content-creator's perspective, I think I can answer that in one symbol: $
>But who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play games for fun?
"Who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play sports for fun?" Is that a dissatisfying parallel for you, or does it sufficiently illuminate the point?
>Who watches twitch?
This is easy enough to answer; gamers / game enthusiasts.
But then you confound it by asking:
>Why be exclusive when everyone knows youtube?
I don't really follow at this point. I thought my post covered that; Twitch has great discoverability of live content, and so if I am trying to watch a CS:GO tournament, and they're all going to be on Twitch, I'll go to Twitch and watch...
If you're asking from a content-creator's perspective, I think I can answer that in one symbol: $
>But who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play games for fun?
"Who just watches OTHER PEOPLE play sports for fun?" Is that a dissatisfying parallel for you, or does it sufficiently illuminate the point?
Well, watching sports is equally confounding for me. Thanks; this answers my question!
Entertainment. Think sports for ~~nerds~~ gamers.
Also... Some celebs* who like gaming stream as a way to connect w/ fans.
* https://dotesports.com/culture/15-celebrities-and-sports-pro...
* https://dotesports.com/culture/15-celebrities-and-sports-pro...
Professional sports, Pro Wrestling, Chess/Go, sports talk shows / talk shows in general, "celebrities playing sport xyz" all have elements of entertainment that are shared with game streaming as a form of entertainment.
Twitch isnt the new guy here
This sucks for the consumer. During DotA's The International I can choose between many services (in-game, Steam, Youtube, Twitch) and pick the one which works better for me.
Really sad to see this so low in the thread. Each exclusivity deal means the finger for consumers.
yup. Exclusive deals are just like exclusive games for consoles. It only feels good for the first party publisher and the fanboys but its bad for pretty much everyone else.
I wish more people were able to see this. Any exclusive that isn't due to actual limitations and is solely being done because someone paid for it is harmful to consumers. The console manufacturers do it to prop up their consoles, Netflix et al. do it to prop up their services. In this case, Twitch is doing it to ensure their dominance in streaming.
There are exclusives for the Nintendo consoles that depend on their wacky hardware. There are more PC exclusives than all the other systems combined for many reasons: no cost to release, no cost to update, no online service costs, vastly superior compute power, unrestricted machine access, and special peripheral support (e.g. HOTAS for flight sims) which combines to enable lots of smaller, niche games to come out on PC.
Paid exclusives suck. They exist purely to make companies happy because it forces people to buy what they don't already have or need and it makes the people who construct their identity around a brand happy because they have something other people cannot have.
There are exclusives for the Nintendo consoles that depend on their wacky hardware. There are more PC exclusives than all the other systems combined for many reasons: no cost to release, no cost to update, no online service costs, vastly superior compute power, unrestricted machine access, and special peripheral support (e.g. HOTAS for flight sims) which combines to enable lots of smaller, niche games to come out on PC.
Paid exclusives suck. They exist purely to make companies happy because it forces people to buy what they don't already have or need and it makes the people who construct their identity around a brand happy because they have something other people cannot have.
> There are exclusives for the Nintendo consoles that depend on their wacky hardware.
Not really. Actually, not at all. It is a terrible excuse for Nintendo, who I think is one of the worst offenders in the gaming space at using exclusivity to drive hardware sales and lock in.
The Wii Mote, for example, has been fully supported on PCs since about 2008 - a year after it came out. And there were probably beta drivers dating back to its release. It uses bluetooth, after all, its just an HID device. You can easily ship a game for PC that requires that controller.
Since their Wii U pad was just a dedicated computer that communicated over wifi (proprietary, I think?) with the base console, that kind of logic code can be ported anywhere. It just requires a server that converts the pads touch events and controls into a local touchscreen + joypad with haptics and gyros. Every major OS supports these, and has since well before the Wii U came out.
And don't get me started on the Switch. It is just an Android tablet (and the worst part is Nintendo stopped Nvidia from releasing a much needed Shield Tablet 2 because it would have just been a literal Switch without the controller parts included for half the price in exchange for using their SoC) with attachable joystick pieces. Again, every OS can support this input style, and any game can require it.
Nintendo has invested in manufacturing and distributing really shitty computers (since the Gamecube every Nintendo console has been underpowered compared to the average PC and was way behind its contemporary consoles) and writing a giant proprietary freedom-hating set top OS for them that uses proprietary APIs that are non-portable for developers to target for what I believe no reason than power hunger. There isn't even a profit motive in it - they make a tiny amount of money per console sold, nobody ships games on their systems anymore so they aren't getting any licensing money, and the vast majority of their income is from first party sales. But their first party titles only ever support their shitty hardware. It means they are dramatically reducing their potential audience of $60 pure profit releases per box (and their games have ravenous fans, even those that cannot afford a redundant $300 piece of junk) to move console units that don't make any money. The only reason to do that is because that is what you have always done. So you keep doing it, because you are addicted to having that level of control, even when it doesn't have a business benefit. It is pretty stupid.
Not really. Actually, not at all. It is a terrible excuse for Nintendo, who I think is one of the worst offenders in the gaming space at using exclusivity to drive hardware sales and lock in.
The Wii Mote, for example, has been fully supported on PCs since about 2008 - a year after it came out. And there were probably beta drivers dating back to its release. It uses bluetooth, after all, its just an HID device. You can easily ship a game for PC that requires that controller.
Since their Wii U pad was just a dedicated computer that communicated over wifi (proprietary, I think?) with the base console, that kind of logic code can be ported anywhere. It just requires a server that converts the pads touch events and controls into a local touchscreen + joypad with haptics and gyros. Every major OS supports these, and has since well before the Wii U came out.
And don't get me started on the Switch. It is just an Android tablet (and the worst part is Nintendo stopped Nvidia from releasing a much needed Shield Tablet 2 because it would have just been a literal Switch without the controller parts included for half the price in exchange for using their SoC) with attachable joystick pieces. Again, every OS can support this input style, and any game can require it.
Nintendo has invested in manufacturing and distributing really shitty computers (since the Gamecube every Nintendo console has been underpowered compared to the average PC and was way behind its contemporary consoles) and writing a giant proprietary freedom-hating set top OS for them that uses proprietary APIs that are non-portable for developers to target for what I believe no reason than power hunger. There isn't even a profit motive in it - they make a tiny amount of money per console sold, nobody ships games on their systems anymore so they aren't getting any licensing money, and the vast majority of their income is from first party sales. But their first party titles only ever support their shitty hardware. It means they are dramatically reducing their potential audience of $60 pure profit releases per box (and their games have ravenous fans, even those that cannot afford a redundant $300 piece of junk) to move console units that don't make any money. The only reason to do that is because that is what you have always done. So you keep doing it, because you are addicted to having that level of control, even when it doesn't have a business benefit. It is pretty stupid.
> exclusives for the Nintendo consoles that depend on their wacky hardware.
He was talking about games, not the hardware itself, I think.
He was talking about games, not the hardware itself, I think.
In the past 12 months Blizzard has integrated Facebook login [1], Facebook Live streaming [2], and Facebook friend lists [3] into their revamped Blizzard App (previously known as the Battle.net Launcher). The live streaming functionality was particularly a shot across the bow [4][5] against someone like Twitch/Curse, so it's interesting to see that Amazon has now responded and forged this new deal with Blizzard. I'm curious if it's just about the content (driving viewers to the platform) or if there's more in the works between these two.
Warning, slow links: [1] https://venturebeat.com/2016/06/06/facebook-to-provide-login... [2] http://www.wowhead.com/news=255393/blizzard-and-facebook-str... [3] http://www.wowhead.com/news=260084/battle-net-and-facebook-f... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12371440 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12381447
Warning, slow links: [1] https://venturebeat.com/2016/06/06/facebook-to-provide-login... [2] http://www.wowhead.com/news=255393/blizzard-and-facebook-str... [3] http://www.wowhead.com/news=260084/battle-net-and-facebook-f... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12371440 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12381447
When they announced integrated streaming, I was excited- until I saw I had to link Facebook, which was a huge disappointment. I use Facebook for sharing pictures of my kids and family stuff, and I have no interest in either sharing my stream with my family or sharing my family with anybody I game with (random people I meet online.) Facebook, at least for me, is far too personal to use as a broadcasting platform, and it seemed like a weird choice that limits potential users to pro teams rather than casual streamers.
Also noticed they are headlining Destiny 2 (from Activision+Bungie) in the Blizzard App store, and that it will be launched from the Blizzard App ("Blizzard Desktop app and registration required to play")
Activision and Blizzard are both owned by Activision Blizzard, so by putting Destiny 2 in Battle.net they can keep the share Valve would take for selling it on steam.
Can I just say that the Justin.TV to Twich pivot was one of the best examples of pivoting to your market that I have ever seen?
Agreed. I loved listening to the startup school radio episode about how they got started and how they pivoted.
https://blog.ycombinator.com/startup-school-radio-episode-2-...
https://blog.ycombinator.com/startup-school-radio-episode-2-...
Twitch has some very serious moderation challenges ahead of them, that they haven't proven they're able to solve, before I can be convinced this is a good thing. Online communities rely on good moderators and moderation tools to be able to thrive.
I am a big Hearthstone fan so I enjoy watching the competitions sometimes. It's been consistently the highest viewed Blizzard game on Twitch for a long time now so it's important to bring up in this discussion.
PlayHearthstone[1] is the official channel for Hearthstone events so you would think it would be representative of how Blizzard wants to operate in the competitive space. Whether it is due to technology, lack of oversight, or simply not caring, Twitch chat is notoriously atrocious; rampant with trolling, vitriol, spamming, and terrible behavior.
To make things worse, there's absolutely no consistency with how events are moderated, if they are at all.
For one event, members are banned for simply asking questions, or providing constructive criticism to the casting of the event with mods creating trigger phrases or words that lead to users getting banned immediately without knowing why. For other events, the chatters are allowed to use all manner of racial, sexual, demeaning, and outright threatening and horrific text towards the casters, the events, and the participants.
It's disgusting to watch, completely unprofessional, and something that has been brought up multiple times by the community with no concrete resolution.
Either Blizzard finds it acceptable, Twitch finds it acceptable, or they haven't figured out how to do well in moderating live chats with thousands of people.
Given their track record, I'm hesitant to be excited about the exclusivity.
[1] - https://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone
I am a big Hearthstone fan so I enjoy watching the competitions sometimes. It's been consistently the highest viewed Blizzard game on Twitch for a long time now so it's important to bring up in this discussion.
PlayHearthstone[1] is the official channel for Hearthstone events so you would think it would be representative of how Blizzard wants to operate in the competitive space. Whether it is due to technology, lack of oversight, or simply not caring, Twitch chat is notoriously atrocious; rampant with trolling, vitriol, spamming, and terrible behavior.
To make things worse, there's absolutely no consistency with how events are moderated, if they are at all.
For one event, members are banned for simply asking questions, or providing constructive criticism to the casting of the event with mods creating trigger phrases or words that lead to users getting banned immediately without knowing why. For other events, the chatters are allowed to use all manner of racial, sexual, demeaning, and outright threatening and horrific text towards the casters, the events, and the participants.
It's disgusting to watch, completely unprofessional, and something that has been brought up multiple times by the community with no concrete resolution.
Either Blizzard finds it acceptable, Twitch finds it acceptable, or they haven't figured out how to do well in moderating live chats with thousands of people.
Given their track record, I'm hesitant to be excited about the exclusivity.
[1] - https://www.twitch.tv/playhearthstone
Please no, I love Twitch chat the way it is. If streamers want to moderate chat some way, let them do it, but I really hope Twitch doesn't enforce one-size fits all topdown moderation rule. That's how you kill vibrant communities and subcultures who are the top 10% who make Twitch fun, and streams' finances sound. If you find memes and jokes crude for some stream, go to some other and support their streams.
So many games and communities have been killed by topdown approach to content moderation.
So many games and communities have been killed by topdown approach to content moderation.
They need to provide tooling to enable moderation, not necessarily enforce it. Forsen's chat isn't going to change, you will still get your gachi on, but official tourneys need a way to stop the insane racism. Look at TerrenceM's comments about how he hoped his parents didn't see the chat while they were rooting for their son in his first competition - it shouldn't be that way, and Twitch (and Blizz/Playheartstone) is failing streamers and competitors by not providing anything in this area.
It is difficult because even if you ban racist words, people will still find a way. The old BrainSlug emote is a perfect example of this (for those who don't know, it was the face of a black streamer. He was so sick of people using an image of his face to be racist that the emote was changed to a Futurama-esque actual brain slug).
It's tricky. If someone in chat is spamming ANELE ITS JUST A CLOCK BRO ANELE, it certainly has racial connotations, but is the statement itself racist? I don't know. I don't like it but I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with someone being banned from chat because of t.
It's tricky. If someone in chat is spamming ANELE ITS JUST A CLOCK BRO ANELE, it certainly has racial connotations, but is the statement itself racist? I don't know. I don't like it but I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with someone being banned from chat because of t.
But do they find a way that is still relevant to the public?
I doubt he would be as embarrassed if commenters spammed 88, as opposed to more openly, well known racist terms. If they want to speak in a secret code, then there's already a long history of racists doing that which isn't unique to online.
I doubt he would be as embarrassed if commenters spammed 88, as opposed to more openly, well known racist terms. If they want to speak in a secret code, then there's already a long history of racists doing that which isn't unique to online.
>ANELE ITS JUST A CLOCK BRO ANELE
Realistically how different is this than people going on /b/ just to type the N word? MingLee spam whenever there is an Asian on screen, TriHard HE SAID IT when someone says 'nei ga' in Mandarin on a Chinese cast or ANELE spam when someone of Indian/Middle East descent is on screen etc. etc.
Realistically how different is this than people going on /b/ just to type the N word? MingLee spam whenever there is an Asian on screen, TriHard HE SAID IT when someone says 'nei ga' in Mandarin on a Chinese cast or ANELE spam when someone of Indian/Middle East descent is on screen etc. etc.
Surely it's a conscious choice of companies if they don't have moderation, when ordinary streamers manage to set themselves up advanced bots? I'm not saying it's not a good idea for twitch to provide bots out of the box. But if PlayHearthstone can organise a tournament, stage it, and broadcast it, I don't believe they're unable to deal with the chat.
If streamers want to moderate chat some way, let
them do it
Most streamers have fans/volunteers who are given moderation powers. No need for micromanaging while they're actually playing.
> they haven't figured out how to do well in moderating live chats with thousands of people
This is surely the case. Blizzard has tried various moderation techniques as you have mentioned and they don't seem to work. If I watch streams on twitch I don't look at chat ever (mobile/tablet).
This is surely the case. Blizzard has tried various moderation techniques as you have mentioned and they don't seem to work. If I watch streams on twitch I don't look at chat ever (mobile/tablet).
> before I can be convinced this is a good thing.
And that's the beauty of it, they don't need to convince you. They're already winning. Your suggestions would kill the soul of the platform.
And that's the beauty of it, they don't need to convince you. They're already winning. Your suggestions would kill the soul of the platform.
From my limited sample, that seems to be tied to the communities, not the streaming platform the event happens on. When Hearthstone events move somewhere else, a large part of the community follows. Do others really have better tools do deal with this?
What solution do you think there can be for a stream with thousands of people watching?
They can definitely improve upon it by message-limiting and message-length limiting (maybe they already do that? I always disable the chat)
Really, the people who care about the chat I imagine are under 20 and hence take internet communication with strangers seriously. I had great fun in my day being a total dipshit online while playing computer games, it was part of the fun for me.
What they can do is have multiple chats, some free-for-all, some moderated, etc. Except, I don't know who's running Twitch but they could've done a thousand and one things to improve their platform and I haven't seen anything, so. It is what it is :)
It's frankly plenty good enough for me. I've written an app for iOS that lets me know when more than X number of people are watching a game (GameWhen on iOS App Store) I'm interested in so I don't miss the big tournaments, outside of that, the streams don't lag, the tournaments are bigger than ever, life's good :)
They can definitely improve upon it by message-limiting and message-length limiting (maybe they already do that? I always disable the chat)
Really, the people who care about the chat I imagine are under 20 and hence take internet communication with strangers seriously. I had great fun in my day being a total dipshit online while playing computer games, it was part of the fun for me.
What they can do is have multiple chats, some free-for-all, some moderated, etc. Except, I don't know who's running Twitch but they could've done a thousand and one things to improve their platform and I haven't seen anything, so. It is what it is :)
It's frankly plenty good enough for me. I've written an app for iOS that lets me know when more than X number of people are watching a game (GameWhen on iOS App Store) I'm interested in so I don't miss the big tournaments, outside of that, the streams don't lag, the tournaments are bigger than ever, life's good :)
I'm 30+ and I love Twitch Chat. It's the only reason I prefer Twitch over YouTube.
No, the demographic is 18-25.
[deleted]
For what it's worth, I just turn off the chat. Exceptions are less popular streams where I know the chat is great. Pro-players also often hang around other pros streams, so you get to interact with not only the streamer but their friends too.
$(".chat-container").remove();
Or just use livestreamer software to watch just the bare stream in a media player of your choice, without all the web crap that comes with twitch interface.
And if you for some reason want to participate in chat, there is irc.twitch.tv, where you can simply join channel #streamname in IRC client of your choice, again without all the web crap, and without all the inane twitch emotes.
I've been doing that for a few years now, much more pleasant experience than their web interface.
And if you for some reason want to participate in chat, there is irc.twitch.tv, where you can simply join channel #streamname in IRC client of your choice, again without all the web crap, and without all the inane twitch emotes.
I've been doing that for a few years now, much more pleasant experience than their web interface.
I pop out the chat and put the video in theatre mode.
You can close the chat window if you want, but I'm normally watching things where the streamer is engaged with the chat and volume is fairly low.
You can close the chat window if you want, but I'm normally watching things where the streamer is engaged with the chat and volume is fairly low.
Good streamers (shoutout to Grubby) will actually read the question they're answering out loud before they answer it. Means I don't have to wade through the insane chat myself, but I still get to experience both sides of the Q&A when he picks out something funny or interesting to respond to.
Yeah for the most part that works, but I'm also often itching to give my own feedback to the streamer, and that is difficult to do without having it open :D
I will say, in the circles I move in, many content creators are also running a discord along side twitch. Some will even invite people into their voice chat to talk with them on stream.
I much prefer using discord in those situations, but that may be partly due to the higher barrier to participation that using discord immediately entails.
I will say, in the circles I move in, many content creators are also running a discord along side twitch. Some will even invite people into their voice chat to talk with them on stream.
I much prefer using discord in those situations, but that may be partly due to the higher barrier to participation that using discord immediately entails.
Your complaint is the equivalent of striding into a concert for 12-20 year olds, and then complaining about the loud noise.
You've got to consider the target audience for video games like HearthStone, as well as the amount of users that will be there.
No amount of "moderation" will solve that. Ever. If you expect a good conversation with tens of thousands of people at once... you need to adjust your expectations.
You've got to consider the target audience for video games like HearthStone, as well as the amount of users that will be there.
No amount of "moderation" will solve that. Ever. If you expect a good conversation with tens of thousands of people at once... you need to adjust your expectations.
> Your complaint is the equivalent of striding into a concert for 12-20 year olds, and then complaining about the loud noise.
Certainly you're right that if I go watch a random stream of a match full of teenagers I shouldn't expect the chat to be mature.
But should I expect that chat to be racist, or sexist? Should I resign myself to that? I don't think so. There is a difference between a conversation that is immature and a conversation that is, say, racist.
Certainly you're right that if I go watch a random stream of a match full of teenagers I shouldn't expect the chat to be mature.
But should I expect that chat to be racist, or sexist? Should I resign myself to that? I don't think so. There is a difference between a conversation that is immature and a conversation that is, say, racist.
> There is a difference between a conversation that is immature and a conversation that is, say, racist.
You seem to be oblivious to teenagers using racism, or really anything that is considered offensive, for the sake of being edgy, whether they share those opinions or merely don't care either way.
This is quite evident in 4chan culture. For example "nigger" is used anywhere from positive ("my nigger", "nigger earned his bike") to a catch-all insult ("fuck off nigger"). Similarly the suffix -fag (from faggot) is used in the same way -person could be used. newfag is an insult to throw at people who stick out from the crowd due to lack of subcultural knowledge while drawfag is a neutral to positive term describing anonymous artists creating original content with their skills.
Whenever business and banking is the topic then the involved people will be called jews, regardless of whether they're actually of jewish descent.
"two nukes were not enough" will even be used on boards that actively consume japanese culture to express a very low opinion of something particular.
I don't get why people get so worked up about racist and sexist insults specifically. They are just easy to use because they target large groups. Simply calling people retarded is a classic, but yet far fewer people bat an eye over it using disabled people as a negative. Country stereotypes are also a thing. Anyone with brown skin or near-eastern clothing will be called a mudslime (muslim). Why? Because the group is large. Nobody is going to use satanist as an insult, simply because the group of satanists is tiny and nobody will care to get worked up to defend them.
I'm not saying there are zero racists among the audience. It's just that there is a non-zero and potentially large fraction of what you're perceiving as racism is actually just people spamming things for shits and giggles. In other words, it's immature. It's easy because it offends many people.
To adapt hanlon's razor: Never attribute to hatred that which is adequately explained by indifference and edginess.
You seem to be oblivious to teenagers using racism, or really anything that is considered offensive, for the sake of being edgy, whether they share those opinions or merely don't care either way.
This is quite evident in 4chan culture. For example "nigger" is used anywhere from positive ("my nigger", "nigger earned his bike") to a catch-all insult ("fuck off nigger"). Similarly the suffix -fag (from faggot) is used in the same way -person could be used. newfag is an insult to throw at people who stick out from the crowd due to lack of subcultural knowledge while drawfag is a neutral to positive term describing anonymous artists creating original content with their skills.
Whenever business and banking is the topic then the involved people will be called jews, regardless of whether they're actually of jewish descent.
"two nukes were not enough" will even be used on boards that actively consume japanese culture to express a very low opinion of something particular.
I don't get why people get so worked up about racist and sexist insults specifically. They are just easy to use because they target large groups. Simply calling people retarded is a classic, but yet far fewer people bat an eye over it using disabled people as a negative. Country stereotypes are also a thing. Anyone with brown skin or near-eastern clothing will be called a mudslime (muslim). Why? Because the group is large. Nobody is going to use satanist as an insult, simply because the group of satanists is tiny and nobody will care to get worked up to defend them.
I'm not saying there are zero racists among the audience. It's just that there is a non-zero and potentially large fraction of what you're perceiving as racism is actually just people spamming things for shits and giggles. In other words, it's immature. It's easy because it offends many people.
To adapt hanlon's razor: Never attribute to hatred that which is adequately explained by indifference and edginess.
You're right, but so what? "Go be edgy elsewhere" is a valid response.
Have you considered that twitch might be that "elsewhere" and people who wish for politically correct chat are perceived as invasive species?
On a less confrontational note, I think options for moderation should lie with the individual streamers, not twitch as a platform. But then people call on the streamers to use those tools and at that point I think it should be noted that faulting them over "not doing enough" is silly. Moderating chat is not their raison d'être. And it's just chat. Maybe they are just indifferent or have other priorities than those who demand a different atmosphere.
At some point chat starts moving so fast that people can't have decent conversations anyway, at that point its value drops a lot where someone might simply not care.
And for the viewers twitch probably should make it easier to disable and hide chat completely. If they deem it not useful or even offensive it should take just a single click to remove it and use that space for the video instead.
On a less confrontational note, I think options for moderation should lie with the individual streamers, not twitch as a platform. But then people call on the streamers to use those tools and at that point I think it should be noted that faulting them over "not doing enough" is silly. Moderating chat is not their raison d'être. And it's just chat. Maybe they are just indifferent or have other priorities than those who demand a different atmosphere.
At some point chat starts moving so fast that people can't have decent conversations anyway, at that point its value drops a lot where someone might simply not care.
And for the viewers twitch probably should make it easier to disable and hide chat completely. If they deem it not useful or even offensive it should take just a single click to remove it and use that space for the video instead.
I'm aware that some places regard nonwhite people as an "invasive species", but that is normally recognised as the unironic racism it really is.
How is that related to my post? I did not refer to race in this context. Of course I am assuming that white people can also wish for or demand PC chat and thus this is not a race-specific or minority issue.
I'm talking about website (sub-)communities. Different places have different standards, and frictions between communities can be seen as a turf conflict, an invasion.
I'm talking about website (sub-)communities. Different places have different standards, and frictions between communities can be seen as a turf conflict, an invasion.
This is an underhanded reply
Second part of my post covered the second part of your response:
Try moderating, in real life, 10000 people talking at once.
Impossible.
If you're just there for the game: watch the game and hide the chat (there's a button right next to it).
If you're there for a good conversation: you're in the wrong place. There's 10000 people there.
Try moderating, in real life, 10000 people talking at once.
Impossible.
If you're just there for the game: watch the game and hide the chat (there's a button right next to it).
If you're there for a good conversation: you're in the wrong place. There's 10000 people there.
It's not impossible at all, lots of channels with many thousands of viewers do a decent job of moderation. The problem is twitch doesn't care about moderation and has shitty tools. That problem will go away once it's clear that cancerchat costs them more $/views than it attracts.
Different audience. 10k kids watching a Hearthstone tournament is different than a carefully cultivated, grown-over-the-years audience of daily viewers. You ban one to ten people each stream and you're golden.
E-Sports have global marketing teams that drive viewership. Having to ban thousands... no matter what the tools, there will be collateral damage.
Only way to fix that is to charge for chat attendance - an option Twitch already offers with subscriber only mode.
E-Sports have global marketing teams that drive viewership. Having to ban thousands... no matter what the tools, there will be collateral damage.
Only way to fix that is to charge for chat attendance - an option Twitch already offers with subscriber only mode.
> Different audience.
Sometimes but not always.
> Having to ban thousands
This is a massive exaggeration, the number of people driving cancerous chat is quite small.
> Only way to fix that
Citation needed. It seems to me there are plenty of things twitch could do to contain chat cancer besides subscriber mode.
Sometimes but not always.
> Having to ban thousands
This is a massive exaggeration, the number of people driving cancerous chat is quite small.
> Only way to fix that
Citation needed. It seems to me there are plenty of things twitch could do to contain chat cancer besides subscriber mode.
> Sometimes but not always.
Always. Even if it's just because this crowd is anonymous, and didn't have to pay to gain access. So they behave differently because there's 0 investment.
> This is a massive exaggeration, the number of people driving cancerous chat is quite small.
It's not. I moderate channels with between 10 and 12500 concurrent viewers. Around 5000 there is a turning point where chat becomes difficult to manage, and above 7500 it becomes nigh impossible unless you have subscriber only mode on, which effectively cuts the audience down to a small percentage.
For reference, have a look at channels like https://www.twitch.tv/nl_kripp (not one where I moderate) which is full of constant spam. That's also how the hate and racism filled chats work. One person does it, and if they get banned, there's EXTRA incentive for others to post the same spammy lines. Herd mentality takes over.
> Citation needed.
Alright, perhaps not the only way, but the only one I've seen work so far, in similar situations. Would love to hear the other ways though.
Currently, "charging for chat access" is the only method Twitch offers that actually works. It ensures people have something invested in the channel which you can take away.
The only other way is censorship, manually (admin/moderator corruption is a huge issue already for Twitch) and programatically (this WILL go wrong too).
.edit: coming back and thinking about this a bit - perhaps there's a way to only allow accounts "in good standing" (above X rating) to post in these chatrooms. How X is determined would be up for discussion.
Thanks for continuing this discussion, it's brough me some light that I might use elsewhere by making me think through this more than I otherwise would've!
Always. Even if it's just because this crowd is anonymous, and didn't have to pay to gain access. So they behave differently because there's 0 investment.
> This is a massive exaggeration, the number of people driving cancerous chat is quite small.
It's not. I moderate channels with between 10 and 12500 concurrent viewers. Around 5000 there is a turning point where chat becomes difficult to manage, and above 7500 it becomes nigh impossible unless you have subscriber only mode on, which effectively cuts the audience down to a small percentage.
For reference, have a look at channels like https://www.twitch.tv/nl_kripp (not one where I moderate) which is full of constant spam. That's also how the hate and racism filled chats work. One person does it, and if they get banned, there's EXTRA incentive for others to post the same spammy lines. Herd mentality takes over.
> Citation needed.
Alright, perhaps not the only way, but the only one I've seen work so far, in similar situations. Would love to hear the other ways though.
Currently, "charging for chat access" is the only method Twitch offers that actually works. It ensures people have something invested in the channel which you can take away.
The only other way is censorship, manually (admin/moderator corruption is a huge issue already for Twitch) and programatically (this WILL go wrong too).
.edit: coming back and thinking about this a bit - perhaps there's a way to only allow accounts "in good standing" (above X rating) to post in these chatrooms. How X is determined would be up for discussion.
Thanks for continuing this discussion, it's brough me some light that I might use elsewhere by making me think through this more than I otherwise would've!
But I didn't say I expected the conversation to be good, I said I expected it not to be racist. This isn't really any different from what occurs at stadiums for club sports. If you start loading shouting racist abuse whilst spectating at a soccer match in the UK you can expect to be escorted from the premises and given a match ban.
Does Twitch have a policy against racism in their chat? Yes. Do they enforce it? No. I'm not suggesting they moderate 10,000 people talking at once: I'm suggesting they target their enforcement to encourage people to stop...which is what's done in real-life sports today.
Does Twitch have a policy against racism in their chat? Yes. Do they enforce it? No. I'm not suggesting they moderate 10,000 people talking at once: I'm suggesting they target their enforcement to encourage people to stop...which is what's done in real-life sports today.
You're free to just ignore the users that are being racist though. You just click their name and hit a button - you'll never see their messages again.
That's the big difference with an in-person event.
Anyway, I'd rather have 10,000 racist people in my Twitch chat than one special person who has to be guarded from hearing anything that offends them. People who constantly need to be guarded are doing way more harm than good for society IMO.
Also, that type of moderation never works the way it's intended. I've been to plenty of sporting events where I've heard racist remarks from people that didn't get in trouble for it.
That's the big difference with an in-person event.
Anyway, I'd rather have 10,000 racist people in my Twitch chat than one special person who has to be guarded from hearing anything that offends them. People who constantly need to be guarded are doing way more harm than good for society IMO.
Also, that type of moderation never works the way it's intended. I've been to plenty of sporting events where I've heard racist remarks from people that didn't get in trouble for it.
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Racism is not illegal.
Even if it was, citizens of China and Europe (e.g. France) are far more racist than the United States and no law can change that.
Even if it was, citizens of China and Europe (e.g. France) are far more racist than the United States and no law can change that.
Plenty of countries have laws against different types of racist behavior. Sweden has them for some types of speech. A rare exception to freedom of speech in our laws.
I would work on fixing those draconian laws before going after Twitch for letting kids blow off steam with their peers while watching games.
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"No, it's the children." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYAuR5bkIlQ
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Like real life, chatrooms around us are full of all sorts of people. Unlike real life, there are literally thouthands screaming at a time. It's wierd to expect everyone to conform to your standard, it is unproductive to be offended when they don't, and pretty out of touch to expect someone to shut them up, so you can "feel safe".
(I am always amazed how typing "when game starts?" results in couple of whispers and (at) mentions with polite answers even in most crowded chats.)
(I am always amazed how typing "when game starts?" results in couple of whispers and (at) mentions with polite answers even in most crowded chats.)
>Twitch chat is notoriously atrocious; rampant with trolling, vitriol, spamming, and terrible behavior.
aka twitch chat
aka twitch chat
How is this a problem for them?
Twitch chat is what makes Twitch so enjoyable. Moderation is probably the surest way to kill what makes it so great.
Perhaps optional or opt-out filters should be in place or something. I also watched the Hearthstone finals last year and the racism did bother me quite a bit, but it's hard to argue whether something should be done, or what that would be.
It's also a super fascinating study in how memes and culture evolves. The memes slowly morph and take on different forms, it's seriously like watching evolution before your eyes. So interesting. The anarchy is what makes this.
Perhaps optional or opt-out filters should be in place or something. I also watched the Hearthstone finals last year and the racism did bother me quite a bit, but it's hard to argue whether something should be done, or what that would be.
It's also a super fascinating study in how memes and culture evolves. The memes slowly morph and take on different forms, it's seriously like watching evolution before your eyes. So interesting. The anarchy is what makes this.
I am the exact opposite. Twitch chat is the item I hate most about the experience. For smaller names, the chat is slow and enjoyable, but for streams like those that Twitch is signing deals with, the chat is nothing but emotes and memes. Completely pointless and annoying. It feels like going to a concert where everyone shouts the entire time.
I feel that Twitch chat greatly enhances the viewing experience, and if it was changed or removed I would have no reason to watch something on twitch compared to any other platform. Take for example the Bob Ross marathon. Without chat I could have just watched that on Youtube or Netflix, but chat is what made that special. 50,000 people watching together, seeing the memes evolve as the stream went on, hello bob, RUINED, SAVED, goodbye. I don't think its pointless or annoying and the fact it feels like going to a concert is the best part!
I hope Twitch chat never becomes more of a police state than it already is. Streamers consistently demonstrate the ability to create the chat environments they want with the scarce tools Twitch has provided them. That seems good enough to me.
The problem you are describing is easily solved by simply joining a different chat room while watching the stream. For example: I'm a member of more than one "<streamer name> civil-chat" chat room which I can hop over to if the main stream chat is a bit too cancerous for my veteran eyes.
Echoing sibling comment sentiments about enforcing a top-down moderation policy: it's a bad idea. One of the most important things that watching Twitch and playing online games with notoriously toxic communities has taught me is that fun is unmotivated.
If you don't understand how someone derives pleasure from an action you find repulsive, it's because you're not meant to. Stop considering other's motivation and suddenly it becomes much easier to enjoy yourself, now that you're not raging at how dumb everyone is.
The problem you are describing is easily solved by simply joining a different chat room while watching the stream. For example: I'm a member of more than one "<streamer name> civil-chat" chat room which I can hop over to if the main stream chat is a bit too cancerous for my veteran eyes.
Echoing sibling comment sentiments about enforcing a top-down moderation policy: it's a bad idea. One of the most important things that watching Twitch and playing online games with notoriously toxic communities has taught me is that fun is unmotivated.
If you don't understand how someone derives pleasure from an action you find repulsive, it's because you're not meant to. Stop considering other's motivation and suddenly it becomes much easier to enjoy yourself, now that you're not raging at how dumb everyone is.
I hope Twitch chat never becomes more of a police state than it already is.
This isn't a great analogy. Twitch doesn't use physical violence against people chatting on their website. The normalization of racism and bigotry through ironic edginess has much more potential to cause real-world violence than chat moderation.
This isn't a great analogy. Twitch doesn't use physical violence against people chatting on their website. The normalization of racism and bigotry through ironic edginess has much more potential to cause real-world violence than chat moderation.
There's nothing wrong with the analogy (except being dramatic).
edit: this isn't agreeing with the parent poster, as a police state is about the level of control, not whether violence is used which is a fact of policing anyway.
edit: this isn't agreeing with the parent poster, as a police state is about the level of control, not whether violence is used which is a fact of policing anyway.
They apparently launched an ML-based auto-moderation tool:
https://blog.twitch.tv/moderators-are-the-sword-now-automod-...
https://blog.twitch.tv/moderators-are-the-sword-now-automod-...
Interesting this is now news, where a few years ago it would have been almost obvious that these events would be on Twitch, where else could they be? (not quite, there were competitors, but more specialized)
In the west, YouTube gaming. In Korea, AfreecaTV. In Japan, Nicovideo I think.
China has DouyuTV as well as a few others I'm no doubt forgetting
> YouTube gaming
Doubtful. Where is Twitch if not in the west?
Doubtful. Where is Twitch if not in the west?
Blizzard owns MLG, which has its own streaming platform MLG.tv. There's also YouTube Gaming which also streaming Overwatch's World Cup last year.
Twitter would be a big one now days.
Heroes of the Storm (a Blizzard game) and Facebook signed an exclusive contract for one of their competitions: http://mashable.com/2017/01/26/facebook-heroes-of-the-dorm/. Twitch's deal here is important in the streaming landscape, with Facebook, Youtube, Amazon, Netflix, Hulu and traditional cable companies trying to get valuable content for their platform.
> Heroes of the Storm (a Blizzard game) and Facebook signed an exclusive contract for one of their competitions: http://mashable.com/2017/01/26/facebook-heroes-of-the-dorm/.
And that stream was an unwatchable crap with crap video quality, skipping issues and IIRC awfully low views.
Even now if you find a VOD of that stream, and check HD, it's completely shit video quality makes it unwatchable, since you can't even distinguish the icons on the interface from one another.
No surprise about this Twitch deal.
And that stream was an unwatchable crap with crap video quality, skipping issues and IIRC awfully low views.
Even now if you find a VOD of that stream, and check HD, it's completely shit video quality makes it unwatchable, since you can't even distinguish the icons on the interface from one another.
No surprise about this Twitch deal.
Twitch is owned by Amazon.
Your post doesn't contradict that, but it seems somewhat important context for anyone who isn't aware since the post mentions both Twitch and Amazon but not the link between the two.
Your post doesn't contradict that, but it seems somewhat important context for anyone who isn't aware since the post mentions both Twitch and Amazon but not the link between the two.
The first line of the linked article says: "Twitch, the popular game-streaming site owned by Amazon, just inked a deal with one of the most popular game developers to broadcast a host of game tournaments exclusively on the service."
Wonder if Twitch somehow got a hold on major Brood War events, namely the Afreeca Starleague, seeing as how it was already getting restreamed in English on Twitch. With the HD remaster I imagine Blizzard would want to take back more control and hold more events of their own, too.
On that note, I still don't know what version/patch the competitive community wants to use going forward, either.
On that note, I still don't know what version/patch the competitive community wants to use going forward, either.
Twitch is nice, but my biggest grief is that it's not YouTube. YouTube is literally everywhere, on every TV, set-top-box, cast device, etc. Twitch is not. Which make it more complicated to watch streams and vods/replays.
It's the same issue Netflix competitors have. They need to get everywhere fast.
It's the same issue Netflix competitors have. They need to get everywhere fast.
That's a shame, I like Mixer so much more than Twitch. Twitch at this point feels like MySpace, with all the custom bullshit sprinkled around. Mixer is nicer and clean, and f-a-s-t. I'm waiting for the Mixer apple tv app and I'll be all set.
Blizzard e-sport events were already streamed primarily on Twitch.
As noted in the article, Twitch is owned by Amazon now, so they have a lot of money and other leverage to play with. It's not a knock against Twitch, but it's also not as much of a coup as the headline and article suggest.
Exclusive streaming deals are bad. E3 proved that Twitch has trouble with high viewer counts. YouTube had higher viewer counts on just about all major conferences at E3 and had no network problems.
Sweet! I’m more likely to watch eSports than the NFL or the NBA
I'm just tired of bundling deals together. I saw an ad online today saying if you're a Twitch Premium user you will get a gold loot box in Overwatch. I just want to enjoy Overwatch, and it feels like those loot boxes almost never deal out good loot anymore. I do not look forward to earning loot boxes.
Loot boxes don't effect gameplay.
If loot boxes don't have value then why are they being used as a carrot?
They have social and visual value, but not gameplay value.
That's my point. Saying they're not affecting gameplay doesn't mean much when they have other value to players.
Doesn't mean much other than the fact that Blizzard implemented a feature that doesn't ruin the integrity of the game.
Blitmap seems to think it means something. Again "integrity" or "mechanics" of gameplay aren't the only value here.
they have perceived value despite their non-existent gameplay value. Oh, and the 100% margins.
You had to pay an artist to make those hats ;)
Golden loot boxes are basically guaranteed to have good loot in them...try it, you might like it !
It's more like Amazon* nabs exclusive streaming deal with Blizzard.
Twitch has destroyed the way I consume twitch. I used to stick twitch on my TV while eating dinner or for big events such as csgo majors or LCS finals.
But as of about a month ago twitch now blocks chromecast.
I can no longer watch twitch on my TV and I hate that fact. And no I'm not going to buy a 'fire stick', I don't like being manipulated into buying something when it previously worked well and has been deliberately downgraded.
But as of about a month ago twitch now blocks chromecast.
I can no longer watch twitch on my TV and I hate that fact. And no I'm not going to buy a 'fire stick', I don't like being manipulated into buying something when it previously worked well and has been deliberately downgraded.
Hey eterm, this is not the case, we are not blocking chromecast on purpose. Can you send me an email at [email protected] and I'll happily gather the error data to ease troubleshooting.
I had troubles recently too with Twitch and Chromecast. I was trying to watch Heroes of the storm Mid season brawl, and it was always saying that it could not display the stream. Other channels were fine. Would it be a case of encoding like others comments are suggesting?
I'm pretty sure this is an isolated instance as I've just watched twitch on Chromecast last week. Jumping out and blaming Tiwtch based on one instance and forming a conspiracy theory about amazon promoting fire stick is as unhelpful as it can get. Why is this so high in the comments?
I've watched Twitch via my Chromecast as recently as a few days ago, so it's certainly not true in general that Twitch blocks Chromecast. A few reddit threads suggest that some streams might use an encoding that Chromecast doesn't support, though.
I have a fire stick (gifted to me) and the twitch app on it is awful. Bad enough that even I noticed. As far as I can tell there is no way to filter the videos by language/region like I can on the desktop.
The videos are displayed in 'current viewers' descending order and I have to scroll for a while and hope that the stream title has enough info to guess at the language (I don't have favorite streamers, I will watch whoever).
I haven't found a way around this in the months I have had it and half the time I use the youtube app and watch a pre-recorded game instead.
I haven't found a way around this in the months I have had it and half the time I use the youtube app and watch a pre-recorded game instead.
I only watch Twitch on Android TV (with their awful that decides to log you off periodically), but seriously, WTF Twitch ? Why block Chromecast ?
BTW, did you try any technical workaround?
BTW, did you try any technical workaround?
My chromecast works perfectly.
TIL there are hacker news readers who use such awful garbage as chromecast and Android TV...
Not all HN readers/commenters are in the Bay Area ;-)
WTF Amazon ? I also did that, but only in summer (for architectural reasons). I'm already pissed I won't be able to do that this summer. Thank you for the heads up.
I only run into this issue when I try to watch replays (previously streamed content). Which sucks... frankly. I hate navigating through content on YouTube.
Wait, 320 Million viewers? That has to be a historical aggregate of sorts. What kind of source for that claim exists? Oh, let's check the link!
Hmm, okay, it goes to an article that cites another source. The BBC? Reputable source, so here's the deal:
>Esports generated $493m (£400m) in revenue in 2016, with a global audience of about 320 million people.
So yeah, that's an aggregate of all of 2016. Let's compare it to the highest watched Super Bowl on record - Broncos vs. Seahawks: 111 million US viewers. In ONE DAY.
Yes I understand that I'm skewing pretty hard, but even the worst Super Bowl viewing in modern times pulled 39 million or so.
My point is that yeah, eSports looks like it has some numbers, but I work in a high rise building full of financially successful people that are desired marketing targets and I have little doubt barely 0.01% of them watch eSports.
Or, if I want to be a real jackass about it, I could just call eSports the equivalent of K-Pop. The numbers are there to show it's popular, sure. It's just not the target market for millions of dollars of advertising budget for US eyes.
Hmm, okay, it goes to an article that cites another source. The BBC? Reputable source, so here's the deal:
>Esports generated $493m (£400m) in revenue in 2016, with a global audience of about 320 million people.
So yeah, that's an aggregate of all of 2016. Let's compare it to the highest watched Super Bowl on record - Broncos vs. Seahawks: 111 million US viewers. In ONE DAY.
Yes I understand that I'm skewing pretty hard, but even the worst Super Bowl viewing in modern times pulled 39 million or so.
My point is that yeah, eSports looks like it has some numbers, but I work in a high rise building full of financially successful people that are desired marketing targets and I have little doubt barely 0.01% of them watch eSports.
Or, if I want to be a real jackass about it, I could just call eSports the equivalent of K-Pop. The numbers are there to show it's popular, sure. It's just not the target market for millions of dollars of advertising budget for US eyes.
The demographic that Twitch is after isn't just a niche curiosity. That is the same demographic that spent an estimated 1.6 billion dollars in 2016 on League of Legends, one of the many successful games that are featured on Twitch. Another estimated 18 million dollars a month in Dota 2. One of the most successful streamers on Twitch reportedly pulls in 2 million dollars a year.
It's not on the level of the NFL's 13+ billion dollars a year, but it's certainly nothing to laugh at. Keep in mind that Amazon purchased Twitch for almost 1 billion dollars.
It's not on the level of the NFL's 13+ billion dollars a year, but it's certainly nothing to laugh at. Keep in mind that Amazon purchased Twitch for almost 1 billion dollars.
Desired marketing targets is exactly what Twitch and eSports target. 18-54 year old males. Your high rise might have a few thousand people in it, there are bound to be many that play video games and maybe watch streamers.
There is a stigma in some circles that video games are for kids and adults maybe won't admit in a work environment that they play/watch because it may sound unprofessional?
There is a stigma in some circles that video games are for kids and adults maybe won't admit in a work environment that they play/watch because it may sound unprofessional?
Twitch : EPSN :: Gamers : Jocks
It's a new(ish) platform whose demographic (people who enjoy video games) is growing larger every year. Today's 40 and 50 year olds don't play nearly as many games as the next decade's will. Whether or not they can wrangle that into marketing $$$ is another story.
It's a new(ish) platform whose demographic (people who enjoy video games) is growing larger every year. Today's 40 and 50 year olds don't play nearly as many games as the next decade's will. Whether or not they can wrangle that into marketing $$$ is another story.
To put "eSports" into perspective, let's take League's 2016 World Championship in the context of the other world championships.
2016 Basketball Worlds Final Game: 31M viewers 2016 Baseball Worlds Final Game: 40M viewers 2016 League of Legends Worlds Final: 43M viewers
So, okay. eSports isn't quite at the American Football level. But, it right in line with the other top broadcast sports
2016 Basketball Worlds Final Game: 31M viewers 2016 Baseball Worlds Final Game: 40M viewers 2016 League of Legends Worlds Final: 43M viewers
So, okay. eSports isn't quite at the American Football level. But, it right in line with the other top broadcast sports
I am a big Counter-Strike: Global Offensive fan. I play a bit, but I vastly prefer to watch professional play. I got into the game a year ago or so, and that seemed to be a glorious time to spectate the game. Streams were virtually exclusively on Twitch, and every weekend it felt like there was a ($100k+ prize pool) tournament, and every week there were high quality pick-up/practice games between professional players being streamed.
Of course (who can blame them?), YouTube Gaming wanted a piece of this pie. They cut some exclusive deals with a couple online leagues and tournament organizer, bringing a sizable chunk of the content with them to YouTube Gaming.
However, the users DID NOT follow (and UX over on YT can be almost entirely blamed), and the ensuing fracturing of the community has seen CS:GO drop from consistently top 5 in Twitch games to regularly outside the top 10. The thing is, though, the missing viewership mostly didn't migrate to YouTube, instead just deciding to not watch at all. The appeal behind Twitch and CS:GO was that there was basically non-stop _very high_ quality content being streamed, and you didn't need to put in a single ounce of effort to find it. YouTube very much does not have that same user flow down, at all.
And now (even though the position isn't particularly degraded), owing to the relative difficulty of finding tournaments on YouTube OR Twitch, I find myself watching a lot less. So goes the general vibe of the community. Sure, woe is us, 2 whole sources? But consider this: YouTube's discoverability is horrible, its UI plagued with reruns emblazoned with a red "LIVE NOW" that screams for your attention at first and later leaves you unwilling to trust any visuals on the site; Twitch, on the other hand, with its inability to pause / rewind / stream a smooth 1080p60 (hell, even 720p60 stutters 10x as much as YouTube's) leaves you comparatively upset about video quality when you watch there.
So I guess my point is that Twitch clearly loses in the tech department to YouTube, but its benefits (more entertaining chat, better discoverability and UI/UX) are more than enough to make you a dedicated user when exclusivity is part of that package. It'll be interesting to see which side can overcome its issues to gain the advantage.
Note: edits for readability have occurred over the 5 minutes following the posting of this comment