Ask HN: How much do developers earn in Europe?(docs.google.com)
docs.google.com
Ask HN: How much do developers earn in Europe?
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScTh14SV6qbMvGrGz5-XQz0aGp04j5M4P_4ciaSOXsTBfzvGA/viewform
183 comments
Happiness is paramount. And especially early on having opportunities for growth matters.
But after a couple years in the industry? A high salary goes really far. Note that "high" means different things to different people, but choosing a 300k/year job over a 200k/year job is often a good idea, even if it's to do stupid shit and not change the world. That doesn't mean you should choose misery over happiness for money, but it's rare that the choice is that stark.
Most tradeoffs are ill-defined and uncertain when you're choosing the job. Salary, on the other hand, is directly comparable, and it translates to something very real and concrete.
But after a couple years in the industry? A high salary goes really far. Note that "high" means different things to different people, but choosing a 300k/year job over a 200k/year job is often a good idea, even if it's to do stupid shit and not change the world. That doesn't mean you should choose misery over happiness for money, but it's rare that the choice is that stark.
Most tradeoffs are ill-defined and uncertain when you're choosing the job. Salary, on the other hand, is directly comparable, and it translates to something very real and concrete.
[deleted]
Well, having had a few times the opportunity to do such a move, I stayed at my previous job. Good atmosphere, cool company (a big one), located in such a way that my 15 km bike commute is 70% in a forest, no travel, yell at my children every night so that they do their homework/wash teeth etc.
What would these 100k give me? Not much - I will comfortably retire when time comes. I would consider a 500k increase as it would change my life and probably help me to retire earlier.
I belive that what revenue brings in a set of plateaux. When you start every euro counts, then comes a plateau and you move up after a significant change of salary. Which brings some acceptable/bereable drawbacks.
What would these 100k give me? Not much - I will comfortably retire when time comes. I would consider a 500k increase as it would change my life and probably help me to retire earlier.
I belive that what revenue brings in a set of plateaux. When you start every euro counts, then comes a plateau and you move up after a significant change of salary. Which brings some acceptable/bereable drawbacks.
What about working for 2 years then taking a break to work on side projects and travel for a year. With a high income you can do this; essentially working 66%
Beside the fact that I hate to travel (I accumulated 2+M miles in 8 years, I had enough) I have children. I want stability for them, a routine in which they will feel safe.
I like to work in an office because it gives me two separate worlds (office and home) which is good for my sanity.
Finally, I live in France where the costs of life are quite high and I will not be able to easily find a similar job (there are just a few) so when I retire, this is for good.
I am considering a sabbatical, though.
I like to work in an office because it gives me two separate worlds (office and home) which is good for my sanity.
Finally, I live in France where the costs of life are quite high and I will not be able to easily find a similar job (there are just a few) so when I retire, this is for good.
I am considering a sabbatical, though.
One of the primary reasons people are interested in high salaries is to stop paying rent and become homeowners, and to pay for things like travel, childcare, education, hobbies, etc.
If the only expenses you need to fund are rent and food, what are you doing in an industry this competitive and stressful?
If the only expenses you need to fund are rent and food, what are you doing in an industry this competitive and stressful?
In case you are interested, Urban Linker (french recruitment agency) publish somewhat detailed salary stats (in French), last one is form 2016 [0]. This only covers Parisian region, but it's really interesting to see how technology affect the salary.
[0] https://www.urbanlinker.com/le-webzine/etude-des-salaires-de...
[0] https://www.urbanlinker.com/le-webzine/etude-des-salaires-de...
This actually lines up with what I, a mid level .Net dev was expecting. When I first arrived in Paris I thought the compensation was low, but I was educated that that was the standard. It's improved a bit but not a whole lot.
Paris is still a great city to live in. We even managed to live there with child.
Paris is still a great city to live in. We even managed to live there with child.
Can't open the doc because it's blocked by my employer. But generally the developer wage is very low in Europe compared with US(Bay area).
AFAIK London have the highest salary among european countries, usually handed out by Investment banks and other financial service companies.
In London a tier 1 bank's VP developer will typically get £90k-110k base, plus 15-40% bonus. If you work for a hedge fund, the base is typically 10% higher with 10-20% more bonus. To get a VP job in a bank you usually need 7 year+ experience after graduation.
In contrast the big tech companies in london pays about 10-20% less base salary than banks, far less cash bonus. But depends on which one you are working for, the RSU could be either similar to the states side or a bit less. The signon bonus is usually quite low as well.
Startups in London have very low pay, typically 50-60% of your market value in a bank.
So if you are a top developer with 15 years+ experience, works for a top hedge fund in London, you'll most likely take home < £200k, which is like $260, that's only about average wage for a google senior developer.
AFAIK London have the highest salary among european countries, usually handed out by Investment banks and other financial service companies.
In London a tier 1 bank's VP developer will typically get £90k-110k base, plus 15-40% bonus. If you work for a hedge fund, the base is typically 10% higher with 10-20% more bonus. To get a VP job in a bank you usually need 7 year+ experience after graduation.
In contrast the big tech companies in london pays about 10-20% less base salary than banks, far less cash bonus. But depends on which one you are working for, the RSU could be either similar to the states side or a bit less. The signon bonus is usually quite low as well.
Startups in London have very low pay, typically 50-60% of your market value in a bank.
So if you are a top developer with 15 years+ experience, works for a top hedge fund in London, you'll most likely take home < £200k, which is like $260, that's only about average wage for a google senior developer.
> But generally the developer wage is very low in Europe compared with US(Bay area).
Because it usually comes with built-in social security and nationwide health insurance.
> AFAIK London have the highest salary among european countries,
Nope. Scandinavia.
Because it usually comes with built-in social security and nationwide health insurance.
> AFAIK London have the highest salary among european countries,
Nope. Scandinavia.
> Because it usually comes with built-in social security and nationwide health insurance.
That's not the case. Health insurance plays very little role in this. I can go to a private doctor for peanuts. Salaries are low, because companies are "broke" and don't have million dollar funding and you can have a great lifestyle with fifth/tenth of a SV salary.
> Nope. Scandinavia.
Nope, Switzerland.
That's not the case. Health insurance plays very little role in this. I can go to a private doctor for peanuts. Salaries are low, because companies are "broke" and don't have million dollar funding and you can have a great lifestyle with fifth/tenth of a SV salary.
> Nope. Scandinavia.
Nope, Switzerland.
not in the UK you cant :-)
Nope, Denmark
Switzerland is not EU.
I know that, but you wrote "among european countries" an Switzerland is definitely one of them. It doesn't really make a difference for EU citizens if Switzerland is in or out.
That logic makes no sense. Since health isn’t an employer cost, salaries in Europe should be higher than the US where the employer incurs health/social costs. However, in France “social charges” are incurred by the employer which means that their cost per employee is about double of their actual salary. That means that French employers are paying social charges which finance those who aren’t employed.
In the US:
An employer pays salary + health costs for that employee.
In Europe:
Employer pays salary + health costs for both the employee AND the rest of society. Which means your European salary is subsidizing other people not even related to the company.
On top of that, the employee gets to pay tax rates approaching 50% in many cases.
The average take home pay after factoring out health costs and benefits is dramatically lower than an equivalent position in the US.
In the US:
An employer pays salary + health costs for that employee.
In Europe:
Employer pays salary + health costs for both the employee AND the rest of society. Which means your European salary is subsidizing other people not even related to the company.
On top of that, the employee gets to pay tax rates approaching 50% in many cases.
The average take home pay after factoring out health costs and benefits is dramatically lower than an equivalent position in the US.
Health care isn't the reason for the pay gap. The technology sector in Europe is far smaller than those in the US, these days there isn't a single tech company in the EU can rival those tech giants in the US, so the pay gap makes sense.
If you are a banker or a hedge fund PM working in London, your pay will be on par with or even more than your colleagues in New York.
If you are a banker or a hedge fund PM working in London, your pay will be on par with or even more than your colleagues in New York.
[deleted]
> Nope. Scandinavia
I don't agree with that, at least not in Sweden. Sweden had one of the flattest wage distributions in the world. Developers make very little here when you compare to other countries and other professions.
In Stockholm there are some companies that pay more, e.g. Google, but not near London.
I don't agree with that, at least not in Sweden. Sweden had one of the flattest wage distributions in the world. Developers make very little here when you compare to other countries and other professions.
In Stockholm there are some companies that pay more, e.g. Google, but not near London.
Nope. Scandinavia.
The answer depends very much if you're looking at median salary or 'peak' salary. It also matters if you're talking before or after taxes. Median pre-tax dev. salaries are almost certainly higher in Scandinavia (or at least in Norway and Denmark), but you'll never earn what some of the top devs in finance in London earn.
The answer depends very much if you're looking at median salary or 'peak' salary. It also matters if you're talking before or after taxes. Median pre-tax dev. salaries are almost certainly higher in Scandinavia (or at least in Norway and Denmark), but you'll never earn what some of the top devs in finance in London earn.
> Because it usually comes with built-in social security and nationwide health insurance.
That doesn't make any sense. There's social security in the US as well and the company is paying for my health insurance.
edit:
Honestly, why the downvotes? What he was stated was inaccurate and doesn't account for any of the pay differences between the US and Europe.
That doesn't make any sense. There's social security in the US as well and the company is paying for my health insurance.
edit:
Honestly, why the downvotes? What he was stated was inaccurate and doesn't account for any of the pay differences between the US and Europe.
While taxes in Europe are a bit higher, here is what you get in return:
1. Paid-for healthcare. In the US, I pay close to $2K/month premium for a high-deductible health insurance plan.
2. Subsidized child-care (kindergarten, etc.)
3. Paid-for higher education. That in itself is worth at least $250K/child.
4. Great public transport, which eliminates the need to have more than 1 car (as opposed to 3-4 per household in the US)
5. Decent infrastructure in general (airports, train stations, etc). The US looks like a third-world country.
Also, please keep in mind that while income taxes in the US are a bit lower, they are still significant:
- State tax (usually 5-7%)
- Real-estate taxes. It is not uncommon to pay $1000/month for a very average house in a Boston suburb with good schools.
- "Invisible" taxes, such as excise taxes (cars, oats, etc), alcohol, tobacco, gasoline taxes.
1. Paid-for healthcare. In the US, I pay close to $2K/month premium for a high-deductible health insurance plan.
2. Subsidized child-care (kindergarten, etc.)
3. Paid-for higher education. That in itself is worth at least $250K/child.
4. Great public transport, which eliminates the need to have more than 1 car (as opposed to 3-4 per household in the US)
5. Decent infrastructure in general (airports, train stations, etc). The US looks like a third-world country.
Also, please keep in mind that while income taxes in the US are a bit lower, they are still significant:
- State tax (usually 5-7%)
- Real-estate taxes. It is not uncommon to pay $1000/month for a very average house in a Boston suburb with good schools.
- "Invisible" taxes, such as excise taxes (cars, oats, etc), alcohol, tobacco, gasoline taxes.
not true in NL, which country are you referring to?
> Because it usually comes with built-in social security and nationwide health insurance.
In what universe do companies offer a lower salary because the country offers a better social safety net?
In what universe do companies offer a lower salary because the country offers a better social safety net?
This is typically the case because the taxes tend to be high in such countries - thus the company compensates by offering a lower salary.
which is paid for by higher taxes
In the UK in the South you can similar salaries to London without the expense of London. I am a Senior .NET dev can I could get £50-70k. The expense compared to London is about 75%.
Up North in the UK get £40K for a senior dev is pretty hard work but everything costs half as much so it is totally relative to where you are living in the UK. The South is crowded with no infrastructure to handle it (driving in a nightmare).
Gibraltar is probably the best place to go if you can get a Job in Europe. Spain is stupidly cheap. Wages are less than say London, I lived like an absolute king on £27,000.
Up North in the UK get £40K for a senior dev is pretty hard work but everything costs half as much so it is totally relative to where you are living in the UK. The South is crowded with no infrastructure to handle it (driving in a nightmare).
Gibraltar is probably the best place to go if you can get a Job in Europe. Spain is stupidly cheap. Wages are less than say London, I lived like an absolute king on £27,000.
and for interest a train driver earns 60k for a 4 day week easily 75K with OT
Switzerland, Zurich is the only place in Europe where you can earn Bay Area salaries; I am a software engineer/tech recruiter hiring on behalf of a handful of Swiss companies. If you look for a job (https://coderfit.com/openedjobs/), or know some engineeres who are, please reach out to me. You find my email in my HN-handle.
(From an employee's perspective, Switzerland can be counted "as an EU country" since you can work here with an EU passport.)
(From an employee's perspective, Switzerland can be counted "as an EU country" since you can work here with an EU passport.)
I would disagree. Zurich does indeed pay very well, but it's very hard to get a job there, and salaries are only competitive with the Bay Area at lower levels. That means it's possible to find a job that pays 100k, but 300k compensation packages are far, far more rare than in the Bay Area. I don't know any company apart from Google that pays that much for senior engineers.
I tried to get a job there about 8 months ago, and I could only convince 3 startups to interview me (after I failed to get a job at Google), and I didn't get an offer at any of them. I failed one for "cultural fit", one because I didn't do well enough in the technical phone screen, and with the third one I decided to stop the process because I had another offer and was tired of interviewing. It's fine to not accept people for cultural reasons, but if there are 4 startups that are hiring in Zurich, that kinda sucks for candidates.
Also, recently Google started paying new engineers in Zurich lower than in the US (same salary, far fewer RSUs). I guess the lack of competition in the European market is a good enough reason.
Do you know any companies in Zurich hiring developers that pay Bay Area salaries (100k junior, 200k senior) and hire >100 engineers a year?
I tried to get a job there about 8 months ago, and I could only convince 3 startups to interview me (after I failed to get a job at Google), and I didn't get an offer at any of them. I failed one for "cultural fit", one because I didn't do well enough in the technical phone screen, and with the third one I decided to stop the process because I had another offer and was tired of interviewing. It's fine to not accept people for cultural reasons, but if there are 4 startups that are hiring in Zurich, that kinda sucks for candidates.
Also, recently Google started paying new engineers in Zurich lower than in the US (same salary, far fewer RSUs). I guess the lack of competition in the European market is a good enough reason.
Do you know any companies in Zurich hiring developers that pay Bay Area salaries (100k junior, 200k senior) and hire >100 engineers a year?
I am sorry that you had a bad experience interviewing in Zurich. A city with only 300k inhabitants can't be compared with Berlin, London, SF or NYC (all "huge" places).
The density of startups and tech firms, when accounted for the tiny size of Zurich, is still impressive, I think. I live here since three years and don't regeret it: "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t...
The density of startups and tech firms, when accounted for the tiny size of Zurich, is still impressive, I think. I live here since three years and don't regeret it: "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t...
There are a few consulting companies doing project work that hire a good amount of people. (However none are even close to you >100 / year number)
And also, it will be pretty hard to get near the 200k mark in Zurich if you're not at either a bank with a very specific expertise or at Google.
I am talking total compensation (salary + bonus + stock), and at Google you get past 200k at L4, so after the first promotion. New grads used to make around $160k, not it's somewhat less.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but while salaries are high and taxes are relatively low, general living costs are quite high. Particularly if you have kids and so want a bigger house and good schools.
I've looked at this and the benefits we get from staying in Germany outweigh the extra income earned.
I've looked at this and the benefits we get from staying in Germany outweigh the extra income earned.
Do your own cost of living estimate.
Last year my Junior Software Developer (with ETH Masters) balance sheet looked as follows :
Income:8650
Taxes :1640 (income, social etc. ) Food/Drink/Dates: 1560 HealthInsurrance : 346 Rent : 1640 (2 rooms 64sqm) downtown nice part of town Other : 400
So i end up saving 3k per month
But i don't have kids that would be >2.5k per kind for daycare.
Last year my Junior Software Developer (with ETH Masters) balance sheet looked as follows :
Income:8650
Taxes :1640 (income, social etc. ) Food/Drink/Dates: 1560 HealthInsurrance : 346 Rent : 1640 (2 rooms 64sqm) downtown nice part of town Other : 400
So i end up saving 3k per month
But i don't have kids that would be >2.5k per kind for daycare.
If you try a bit, you can live for under 2000 CHF or for less than that: "Move to Switzerland, work in IT, live frugally and be free" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1oeSs67myA
You pay 2.5k only for a year or two, when the kids are 2-3 years old; after that it's free kindergarten again.
You pay 2.5k only for a year or two, when the kids are 2-3 years old; after that it's free kindergarten again.
Thanks for the real numbers. When I was looking the sort of salaries I was being quoted were in the 10000 per month range which is a lot more than what I'm currently on but would actually work out worse once costs are taken into account.
Yea i am at 10000 now, but did not want to redo my finances :P
Also I would like to add that my friends who do not speak German are making all making less than 8333 (excluding those at google or a bank).
Also I would like to add that my friends who do not speak German are making all making less than 8333 (excluding those at google or a bank).
you only paid 1640 in taxes out of an 8650 income?! that's crazy!
even if we include the health insurance, it's still only 2k in taxes out of an 8650 income (less than 25%)
a lot of countries in europe will tax you 40% for that income...
even if we include the health insurance, it's still only 2k in taxes out of an 8650 income (less than 25%)
a lot of countries in europe will tax you 40% for that income...
Usually European taxes are complicated. I make 44k a year but I get about 33k on my bank account each year. This is because even though we have a 33% and 40% rate there are also numerous tax-cuts in place.
Ie: in NL you can deduct your entire mortgage rate interest from your gross income. This basically means you get a 40% discount on your mortgage. And there are numerous more.
Ie: in NL you can deduct your entire mortgage rate interest from your gross income. This basically means you get a 40% discount on your mortgage. And there are numerous more.
If you are single and renting, you don't get deductions and if you are having family then probably it is not worth moving anyway. Even less if you already have mortgage somewhere else than NL. So I do not feel it is useful to compare different countries. Unless for single people renting flats who could move quite easily.
Mortage interest rates are 1% these days so that is not really much.
i agree its crazy. I do feel a bit dirty for living here seeing all the other europeans helping their neighbours while we are sitting here playing the isolation game.
Do you speak German?
I found Zurich difficult when not speaking the language.
I found Zurich difficult when not speaking the language.
yes, we require german. :/
Is this CHF or did you convert to USD or EUR?
The living costs are high, but still noticeably lower than the craziness of US tech hubs.
True, they're not that crazy, but when I looked at the higher salary Vs the higher costs it was financially better to stay put. Of course money isn't the only deciding factor but it's not the land of massive opportunity it's sometimes presented as.
That said, if you've got no dependents and you want to stay in mainland Europe, then it's probably a very good choice.
That said, if you've got no dependents and you want to stay in mainland Europe, then it's probably a very good choice.
Data is impossible to read - seems like some people are converting their salary to USD, some others leave it in their home currency and a rare few provide the accurate currency. Interesting initiative though - would love to see this in a better format :)
Why do you say this? Can you give an example of someone who has converted their salary to USD?
At the end I plan to polish the results and publish them
At the end I plan to polish the results and publish them
I am European and live in Europe but I've always been paid in USD and my salary is negotiated in USD, so I am not sure what parent means or why does currency matter.
Well currency matters if you want to compare all answers.
Also, the question specifically says "in €, otherwise specify" (edit: ok, I see it was added later).
It's weird that you are paid in USD in Europe, isn't it? How comes?
Also, the question specifically says "in €, otherwise specify" (edit: ok, I see it was added later).
It's weird that you are paid in USD in Europe, isn't it? How comes?
A lot of US companies tend to pay in USD regardless of locale when hiring remote.
That would suck so much, taking a 30% paycut just in the past 7 months due to this.
According the ECB[1] data on 24 Jan 2017 the exchange rate was 1 EUR = 1.0514 USD and today is 1 EUR = 1.1806 USD so we have:
[1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/eu...
(1.1806-1.0748)/1.0748 = 0.0984 => 0.0984 * 100 = 9.84%
[1] https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/policy_and_exchange_rates/eu...
Then take another time span, but the currency fluctuations are so large that it becomes the largest factor to how much you actually take home.
I definitely wouldn't want that.
(I misremembered which currency fell 30% against the Euro, it was the pound instead)
I definitely wouldn't want that.
(I misremembered which currency fell 30% against the Euro, it was the pound instead)
WWCD for UK people though, huge payrise in GBP if you're paid in USD
First clients were based in the US. So it started from there.
Then I wanted to use a reserve currency[1] and I happen to have strong opinions on currencies, policies (FED, ECB, etc.), so I opted for the safest bet in the long run.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#Global_curren...
Then I wanted to use a reserve currency[1] and I happen to have strong opinions on currencies, policies (FED, ECB, etc.), so I opted for the safest bet in the long run.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency#Global_curren...
It always bug me, when developers, people whose main task is passing different data to and fro, are unable to provide information in format that is unequivocal for recipient. Do you really, for example, in systems you create, store or send money data without currency information?
You are right, horrible mistake. Fixed now, sorry.
Does not include Switzerland. Also, what about bonuses and stock (options) which often make sizable portion of income?
Options are not income and are worthless unless it’s a public company or there is a liquidity event. Considering options as a part of income is the same as if your company paid you in lottery tickets.
Tax codes agree and defer the actual taxation to the time you execute the options - then they become income.
Exercised options in a private company still aren't liquid, or usable income.
Early employees at Uber had an opportunity to sell stock at a funding round. Not sure exactly how many people, but believe it was first 1000.
The form also does not let you specify regularly vesting stock for publicly traded companies.
but for example uk share shaves are zero risk and can have very high tax free payouts.
Added Switzerland, sorry!
About stock options, I don't want to make a chart of the best companies (who offer more, etc..), I am interested in becoming more aware of the salary situation in Europe, to understand how this profession is seen.
About stock options, I don't want to make a chart of the best companies (who offer more, etc..), I am interested in becoming more aware of the salary situation in Europe, to understand how this profession is seen.
I also would like to know whether it makes sense to move from Denmark to there in terms of economics.
Salary questions should require a currency suggestion.
Indeed, please edit the survey so the data becomes more readable.
I edited, any other suggestion?
I will publish polished results when will end data gathering
I will publish polished results when will end data gathering
It would be great to have a reference currency (EUR probably) so that the comparison is easier.
Added! Specified in the question to insert in € or otherwise specify.
Why did you focus on EU only? What about Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Serbia, FYROM, Albania, Bosnia & Herzegovina?
In many EU countries, seasoned developers become fre lancers. Achieving higher revenue is impossible otherwise.
This is sad. I mean, I think that numbers that we see in Silicon Valley are ridiculous, but it seems to me that here in Europe this profession it is not recognized for the value it delivers.
The living cost in SV is ridiculous too. There is another thread right now with ppl claiming that 240k USD/year makes it hard to afford house + family expenses.
True, but not everyone loves freelancing (I don't). There's a middle ground, which is full time remote work.
"Annual gross salary": Euro? Dollars? Swedish/Norwegian/Danish crowns? British pounds? Swiss franks?
Was this survey created by an American? ;)
Was this survey created by an American? ;)
Sorry! you are right, fixed it now. BTW, not american :D, italian.
Most probably :P
You couldn't tell from being asked your gender?
How about this: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#salary ?
Interesting, thanks!
> Gender: Apache Attack Helicopter Comment: Fuck you implying anything about a wage gap stupid tranny
Nice..
Nice..
Might I suggest you correct 'years at experience' to 'years of experience'
otherwise, interesting survey. I hope i'm not too much of an outlier here to mess with the result for uk.
otherwise, interesting survey. I hope i'm not too much of an outlier here to mess with the result for uk.
Reading input from my own country it seems I'm grossly underpaid right now.... Makes me feel extremely bad. Perhaps it's time for negotiations with my boss.
If its a couple percent it might be doable, but typically if you're underpaid the best option is move companies - even though you might like where you are right now, you can negotiate less hours for the same pay. Staying won't give you many options, and often, you can even jump right back into your company higher up the chain.
After seeing this i'm like i want to start crying. i'm actually a software engineer working on cryptocurrencies devops and system engineering back-end. My tasks wait for that :
1 - coordinate withe clients
2 - write code
3 - deployement
4 - testing (golang)
5 - writing specs
6 - putting down architecture
in tunisia what i get per month around 700€. a ford fiesta in here cost about 13k€.
Given this survey is targeted at engineers, the data formatting is terrible.
Ask I suspected based on the salary of a VERY senior developer friend in Barcelona, the pay in Spain is terrible. I make 3x+ what he does and 5x+ most of the salaries in the spreadsheet. Too bad because my wife is Spanish and I'd like to move there some day but I'll have to be retired for it to make sense.
I don't think you're going to get a great response as that's a lot of identifying information you're asking for. Country, Area (optional), years of experience, gross salary and extras is what you really want.
Lot of info are optional..Until now I am pretty happy with the number of responses
In Finland, experienced developer with relevant skills can make 60-75 k€ year brutto, translating to 40-50 k€ netto. (Though lower salaries are not uncommon.)
Taxes are high and progressive, but you'll things like 4 weeks vacation, 3 weeks fully paid parental leave for dads (and partially paid for much longer), free education (incl. universities), free daycare, free healthcare, social security, etc. This is not without problems, of course, but has huge impact on stable, equal society and general safety.
(Free = some nominal fees may apply, great majority of costs paid by society.)
Taxes are high and progressive, but you'll things like 4 weeks vacation, 3 weeks fully paid parental leave for dads (and partially paid for much longer), free education (incl. universities), free daycare, free healthcare, social security, etc. This is not without problems, of course, but has huge impact on stable, equal society and general safety.
(Free = some nominal fees may apply, great majority of costs paid by society.)
This survey should have a field for "total package" or "equity offered" given that has larger implications than just Salary. Free food and other perks also play a large role here.
Super cool initiative.
For those complaining about formatting issues ( me as well ). I think someone should fork and re-format the sheet later today and release it back to this thread.
For those complaining about formatting issues ( me as well ). I think someone should fork and re-format the sheet later today and release it back to this thread.
I've tried to visualize Your data with this dashboard
https://affliction123.github.io/euDevDash/
please let me know how to improve and what info is interesting for You to present/focus.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15109316
https://affliction123.github.io/euDevDash/
please let me know how to improve and what info is interesting for You to present/focus.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15109316
Is this going to be published somewhere? I wrote in the salary in the currency of my country which was probably not the intended thing to do.
I will polish results for having an overview, probably will publish it here. I made the mistake to not specify currency from the beginning, would you mind send me the correction to make? [email protected]
Yes, I do mind. Sorry.
There's an app for that: https://www.glassdoor.com
Salaries in Serbia can go up to 40-45000 on an annual basis ( taxes can be pretty insignificant). Even though that is not a lot of money, you can live lavish lifestyle of that money, since everything is super cheap ( monthy rent in the city center, 2 room apartment can be found for 300€)
Interesting definition of Europe that includes UK but doesn't include Serbia not to mention Russia.
> Interesting definition Europe that includes UK
Pray tell, why?
Unless we jetted out into the atlantic the day after brexit we are definately still geographically and culturally European not to mention in the eu for two years and chances are we will negotiate some deal even after that.
Pray tell, why?
Unless we jetted out into the atlantic the day after brexit we are definately still geographically and culturally European not to mention in the eu for two years and chances are we will negotiate some deal even after that.
It's missing Norway and Switzerland as well.
Seems to be only targetting EU countries, not European countries.
Seems to be only targetting EU countries, not European countries.
Serbia, sure, UK definitely, but Russia?
Half of Russia's landmass(and almost all of its capital cities) is firmly in Europe, so why not?
Noone cares about landmass.
But major cities, and therefore most of the workforce, are in Europe. I mean what else, are you going to make the argument that Russia belongs in Asia more than in Europe?
It does not belong to Asia either. Russians distance themselves from the both insisting on their own, superior God chosen ways.
What Russians think is irrelevant - their country lies across both Europe and Asia, so if we want to get an overview of "European" workers, then yes, Russians do absolutely count.
So you insist Russians left of Urals are European, and right of it are Asian?
What else could they be? Martians?
They can even call themselves Australian if they want to, but it doesn't change the fact that anything West of Urals is continental Europe. Moscow, most importantly, is a European city, regardless of how Russians feel about such description.
They can even call themselves Australian if they want to, but it doesn't change the fact that anything West of Urals is continental Europe. Moscow, most importantly, is a European city, regardless of how Russians feel about such description.
Which brings us to my original point again: noone cares where the landmass is.
Russia does not identify with Europe by choice. On Russian TV there is nothing but mocking Europe and all it stands for; majority of Russians poll as actively hostile to Europe. Russians can't freely travel across Europe (nor can Europeans to Russia). Russia conducts military exercises simulating attacks on European capitals, and actively works to undermine and disintegrate European institutions.
Why do you people insist Russia has to be on the list is beyond me.
Russia does not identify with Europe by choice. On Russian TV there is nothing but mocking Europe and all it stands for; majority of Russians poll as actively hostile to Europe. Russians can't freely travel across Europe (nor can Europeans to Russia). Russia conducts military exercises simulating attacks on European capitals, and actively works to undermine and disintegrate European institutions.
Why do you people insist Russia has to be on the list is beyond me.
Because what matters is context.
Whether or not Russians fantasize about attacking Berlin has absolutely nothing to do with conversations about tech salaries.
I'd say that in the context of conversations about European tech salaries, Western Russian cities should absolutely be included.
Whether or not Russians fantasize about attacking Berlin has absolutely nothing to do with conversations about tech salaries.
I'd say that in the context of conversations about European tech salaries, Western Russian cities should absolutely be included.
Why not the eastern ones then? There is hardly any discernible ethnic, linguistic or cultural difference between Smolensk and Vladivostok.
Russians can and do travel freely over vast swaths of Eastern part of European continent. This is incidentally a huge chunk of Europe the continent. Moreover, Russians are Europeans. It seems to me you are confused by the adjective European in European Union. European Union is a large union of states, with most territory in Europe. There are (quite a few) more countries in Europe that are not a part of EU. They are 100% as "European" as someone living in EU.
Thanks for taking time to reply, but having grew up in USSR and living in Europe I am not confused by any of above.
Most of Russia's population also in Europe.
What do you care about then? Exceptionalism?
What do you care about then? Exceptionalism?
Most of Russian population insists they want nothing to do with Europe or European values - all of them. Does landmass outweighs their opinion for you?
I must've missed that referendum you are quoting here?
> Most of Russian population insists they want nothing to do with Europe or European values
That's irrelevant.
We're talking about continents, not political and cultural leanings.
> Does landmass outweighs their opinion for you
Yes. Continental boundaries are well defined.
That's irrelevant.
We're talking about continents, not political and cultural leanings.
> Does landmass outweighs their opinion for you
Yes. Continental boundaries are well defined.
It's pointless to talk about comparing salaries in Europe unless there's some market continuity and no significant barriers for workforce. Absolutely not the case with Russia vs Europe, relocation at will without preexisting employment guarantee/sponsorship is not possible.
If you want to stick to the continent though, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine and Turkey should be there as well. Belarus and Ukraine in particular have IT/developer markets of same magnitude as Russia.
If you want to stick to the continent though, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine and Turkey should be there as well. Belarus and Ukraine in particular have IT/developer markets of same magnitude as Russia.
Russia is European culturally not geographically.
That's probably the current "European Union" definition of Europe.
Added Serbia, Norway and Switzerland.
The salary in EU for developers (medium and above) is already lower than developers in big cities (e.g. Beijing, Shenzhen) in China. I guess in the coming years people will try to find job in China for top pay if US is not an option.
Oh dang, missed the "annual" part of that question. I have no idea, would have to calculate holiday wages and stuff... And OP has no contact info in his profile to let him know which entry to update.
Is there a way to save / export the table for sorting etc.?
I'm a US citizen working and living in Iceland.
That must be quite rare. Tell us a bit about how you ended up living in Iceland and how the IT industry is up there?
I've been considering Iceland. I'd be interested in hearing about where you work and how you like Iceland. It's hard to find information about software developers in Iceland.
Can someone filter this data and throw it into BigQuery? Grouping salaries by years of experience and location would be interesting.
[deleted]
there goes booking.com ruining the std deviation in Amsterdam again! :)
There is expedia in London with the same business.
Title should be "in EEA" instead of "in Europe."
Please add Turkey.
Turkey is not in europe.
Given that Turkey has the worlds most famous transcontinental city it does rather imply that Turkey itself is spread across more than one continent.
How so? Their CAPITAL, and decent chunk of territory are on the continent called Europe. a couple tens of millions citizens live there. Just counting those would put them in the first ten-ish most populous countries in Europe.
Did they move their capital? I thought Ankara was in Asia.
Good catch :) I'm so accustomed to Istanbul being the center of the Turkey's economy and former Ottoman power. However, that does not change the point. Istanbul and the European chunk of Turkey (+ Izmir and Aegean coast which was in "Byzantine" zone of influence) is a huge chunk of Turkey.
It's best to avoid the topic or we'll be encountering Scott and Daniel.
My employer (one of the big three) thinks otherwise :) My manager is in UK, for example.
We are in the history of every possible EU country :) How come we are not in EU ? :)
Currency, come on.
Your dev job pays your rent, food and savings. I assume that most dev jobs do this quite well.
Beyond this, the main goal of a job is to increase your future market value, your professional network and to have fun. So. basically it's about how much you are worth in your next job and that you enjoy your time.
A high salary doesn't help you if you do stuff which doesn't matter in a few years.
A high salary doesn't help you if you work at an unknown company which goes bankrupt in a few months and you cannot show a finished product or that you can stay at one job longer than 12 months.
A high salary doesn't help you if your coworkers are toxic or not the smartest guys or their English is on such a basic level that the communication and not the coding is your daily challenge.
A high salary doesn't help you if your CTO is a passive-aggressive, clueless guy who doesn't talk.
A high salary doesn't help you if you just work on some side projects nobody cares about, in a programming language you weren't hired for.
A high salary doesn't help you if you are not happy.