Be skeptical of Ring's indoor security drone(spectrum.ieee.org)
spectrum.ieee.org
Be skeptical of Ring's indoor security drone
https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/drones/ring-indoor-security-drone
292 comments
> If you want home security that can reach all parts of your home, and provide alerts when someone breaks in, get a dog.
Agree with everything you said except this. This is terrible advice for most people. Don't get a dog unless you really want a dog. And if you do get one, adopt, because there are people who do think like this^ about animals, and a significant number of those animals will end up at a shelter at some point.
Agree with everything you said except this. This is terrible advice for most people. Don't get a dog unless you really want a dog. And if you do get one, adopt, because there are people who do think like this^ about animals, and a significant number of those animals will end up at a shelter at some point.
I have Wyze cams in the front and back of the house and when I am away I leave one pointed at where everything intersects downstairs on the inside. It just needs wire for power unless you get the outside one, those you only need to mount somewhere no wires just recharge. They let you only store things on an SD card. Really cheap anr awesome company.
> There's no way my wife would allow all those wires everywhere. And the wireless security cameras are a pain because you have to remember to recharge them.
This is some misogynistic bull because you’re implying that only women would care about unsightly wires strung around the place.
Educate yourself.
This is some misogynistic bull because you’re implying that only women would care about unsightly wires strung around the place.
Educate yourself.
This is some misogynistic bull because you’re implying that only women would care about unsightly wires strung around the place.
I am implying nothing. I am stating a fact. My wife hates visible wires. Every time we move, it's a pain in the ass to hide all the wires for the TV. When Bluetooth became a thing, she was first on board with a wireless mouse and keyboard. It's been an ongoing theme in our relationship for decades.
Educate yourself.
I don't need to educate myself about my wife. You might want to educate yourself about projection, and making false assumptions to fit other people into your stereotypes.
I am implying nothing. I am stating a fact. My wife hates visible wires. Every time we move, it's a pain in the ass to hide all the wires for the TV. When Bluetooth became a thing, she was first on board with a wireless mouse and keyboard. It's been an ongoing theme in our relationship for decades.
Educate yourself.
I don't need to educate myself about my wife. You might want to educate yourself about projection, and making false assumptions to fit other people into your stereotypes.
so what you are saying is that there is a market for a drone which recharges wireless security cameras?
I mean, who actually does need an array of security cameras? Traditional alarms work well without the need for cameras, specially when cameras are simply defeated by a face covering. At that point, the camera is just a glorified motion sensor.
In the case of the drone, it's just a geeky toy that will be inevitably marketed via fear-mongering, so they can collect even more data on you.
In the case of the drone, it's just a geeky toy that will be inevitably marketed via fear-mongering, so they can collect even more data on you.
Aside from general documentation of damage, cameras can also be used to measure the body and movement (for instance gait) of the criminal, which is actually useful for an investigator. It shows where the criminal walked, which is also useful for securing tracks, prints or even DNA samples. Means you can save a ton of time looking. Many criminals aren't smart enough to discard or burn their clothes after use either, so this would also positively ID the perp if found. So yeah, I'd say that cameras are pretty useful for investigating crimes outside of mere facial recognition. ^^
This strikes me as laughably naive.
I once had my residence burglarized. The police came hours after they were called and stayed long enough (10 minutes) to write a report that took me weeks to get which essentially said "door kicked in, owner said these things gone." That was it: no attempts to follow up with my neighbor that had security cameras, no attempt to run fingerprints on the metal pipe that was found outside that was almost certainly used to break the window, nothing.
If your surveillance drone doesn't get a crystal clear picture of the face of the person who broke into your house, absolutely no one is going to attempt to pull prints or tracks or DNA samples from what it captured. And even if it did get a crystal clear picture, you'll be lucky to get someone to look at it.
I once had my residence burglarized. The police came hours after they were called and stayed long enough (10 minutes) to write a report that took me weeks to get which essentially said "door kicked in, owner said these things gone." That was it: no attempts to follow up with my neighbor that had security cameras, no attempt to run fingerprints on the metal pipe that was found outside that was almost certainly used to break the window, nothing.
If your surveillance drone doesn't get a crystal clear picture of the face of the person who broke into your house, absolutely no one is going to attempt to pull prints or tracks or DNA samples from what it captured. And even if it did get a crystal clear picture, you'll be lucky to get someone to look at it.
My Nest cam clearly caught the thief, but the police refused to take the video unless it was on DVD. It wasn't worth the effort (I don't even have a DVD burner anymore), but the police gave me a case number to satisfy my insurance claim. That's all there was to it; no other followup.
> the police gave me a case number to satisfy my insurance claim
This is the purpose of the visit - to verify that it was a real break-in and not someone scamming their insurance company. Catching the thief is nowhere on their priorities.
This is the purpose of the visit - to verify that it was a real break-in and not someone scamming their insurance company. Catching the thief is nowhere on their priorities.
Okay, so the investigation stalled on you.
There was no follow up... by you.
I tried to be accommodating and suggested at least 5 different means of sharing the video with the police. I even offered to provide a description of the person I saw in the video, and they told me not to bother.
I got the distinct impression that even if I did jump through hoops to provide a DVD that they wouldn't be seriously investigating the theft. The officer who took my statement basically said as much.
I got the distinct impression that even if I did jump through hoops to provide a DVD that they wouldn't be seriously investigating the theft. The officer who took my statement basically said as much.
With respect, that doesn't seem to be a problem with the video system, but with the police department. As with any professional, a gentle reminder to please do their fn job often helps (this is from personal experience spesifically with lazy police officers). ^^ If the case goes to court, you will have a much better case against the suspect. In fact as a lay judge I've presided over many criminal cases where I live, and every case with video evidence stands a much higher chance of convicting the suspect. As for the gentleman who didn't even bother to put the video on the required media; well, I guess the case wasn't that important to him after all.
that doesn't seem to be a problem with the video system, but with the police department.
Police in many places don't do all the things that they do on television anymore.
In some cities, burglaries may not get a police response for days, if at all.
Police departments all across the country have to juggle finances. Sometimes this means deciding what types of crimes get investigated, and which do not. When I lived in the capital of a medium-sized eastern city in the 90's, the mayor and police department had a very public back-and-forth with a big list of crimes, and placing a red line on that list deciding what the police will look at and what they wouldn't.
For example, until last year, police in Las Vegas dropped car crashes from the list of things they would respond to. Unless someone was hurt or killed, they were deemed civil matters and people were supposed to take pictures and let their insurance companies figure it out.
Police in many places don't do all the things that they do on television anymore.
In some cities, burglaries may not get a police response for days, if at all.
Police departments all across the country have to juggle finances. Sometimes this means deciding what types of crimes get investigated, and which do not. When I lived in the capital of a medium-sized eastern city in the 90's, the mayor and police department had a very public back-and-forth with a big list of crimes, and placing a red line on that list deciding what the police will look at and what they wouldn't.
For example, until last year, police in Las Vegas dropped car crashes from the list of things they would respond to. Unless someone was hurt or killed, they were deemed civil matters and people were supposed to take pictures and let their insurance companies figure it out.
> Police in many places don't do all the things that they do on television anymore.
None of what you're claiming is an argument against using cameras, though. Including the insinuation and logical fallacy that the only experience I, a lay judge within the Norwegian justice system, have with police work is through television........
You won't believe how often camera surveillance footage comes up in court cases, and how often they are instrumental in deciding those very cases. That you have an underfunded police force has exactly nothing to do with camera surveillance. In fact, knowing that is actually a giant argument for getting more surveillance cameras(!), since it's such a big help in solving cases and convicting criminals.
Add to this that I've travelled quite extensively, including in countries with severely underfunded police forces, such as in Bulgaria and Romania, or worse, Serbia. There I've seen up close how such underfunded police work. Yeah, surveillance footage; it's even more important in areas with underfunded police! So if you choose to not install cameras, that's up to you, pal. But don't complain to me when you're making sure that any burglary towards your house becomes unsolvable because you refused to install them...
None of what you're claiming is an argument against using cameras, though. Including the insinuation and logical fallacy that the only experience I, a lay judge within the Norwegian justice system, have with police work is through television........
You won't believe how often camera surveillance footage comes up in court cases, and how often they are instrumental in deciding those very cases. That you have an underfunded police force has exactly nothing to do with camera surveillance. In fact, knowing that is actually a giant argument for getting more surveillance cameras(!), since it's such a big help in solving cases and convicting criminals.
Add to this that I've travelled quite extensively, including in countries with severely underfunded police forces, such as in Bulgaria and Romania, or worse, Serbia. There I've seen up close how such underfunded police work. Yeah, surveillance footage; it's even more important in areas with underfunded police! So if you choose to not install cameras, that's up to you, pal. But don't complain to me when you're making sure that any burglary towards your house becomes unsolvable because you refused to install them...
It’s not “do your job”: it’s recognizing that in a large city certain types of crime aren’t significant enough for police intervention.
Frankly, that’s fine by me: putting enough police in place to investigate every incident of property crime would be exceptionally wasteful and would drive up overpolicing of certain communities to a ridiculous and dangerous degree. All I really needed was that report for insurance, after all.
Frankly, that’s fine by me: putting enough police in place to investigate every incident of property crime would be exceptionally wasteful and would drive up overpolicing of certain communities to a ridiculous and dangerous degree. All I really needed was that report for insurance, after all.
> putting enough police in place to investigate every incident of property crime would be exceptionally wasteful and would drive up overpolicing of certain communities to a ridiculous and dangerous degree.
Making them prioritize burglaries or robberies without increasing their manpower might force them to reallocate resources from overpolicing certain communities to doing actual, useful work that makes everyone safer. Sounds like a win-win to me.
But then again, I'm not an expert. Maybe the amount of labor allocated to investigating property crimes currently is appropriate and increasing that might take focus away from violent crimes.
Making them prioritize burglaries or robberies without increasing their manpower might force them to reallocate resources from overpolicing certain communities to doing actual, useful work that makes everyone safer. Sounds like a win-win to me.
But then again, I'm not an expert. Maybe the amount of labor allocated to investigating property crimes currently is appropriate and increasing that might take focus away from violent crimes.
And even if it did get a crystal clear picture, you'll be lucky to get someone to look at it.
Yep. In some jurisdictions, you file burglary reports over the phone. Police don't even come out. They've prioritized burglaries out.
Yep. In some jurisdictions, you file burglary reports over the phone. Police don't even come out. They've prioritized burglaries out.
Police rarely goes after theft here. They basically come to assess if it was a break-in. But don't expect to see your stuff again.
It's better to focus on making sure it's not worth someone's time to get in. Such as keeping expensive, easy to grab, items out of sight. And then just have good locks and a loud alarm.
Adding a camera should be the last thing you do to your setup.
It's better to focus on making sure it's not worth someone's time to get in. Such as keeping expensive, easy to grab, items out of sight. And then just have good locks and a loud alarm.
Adding a camera should be the last thing you do to your setup.
cameras can also be used to measure the body and movement (for instance gait) of the criminal, which is actually useful for an investigator
For a theoretical investigator. Police departments don't have the money, manpower, or time to do gait analysis on a burglary suspect. And outside of China, is that even considered evidence in a real court of law?
For a theoretical investigator. Police departments don't have the money, manpower, or time to do gait analysis on a burglary suspect. And outside of China, is that even considered evidence in a real court of law?
Yes. This is absolutely done when assessing and comparing security footage. Burglars are often serial burglars (it's their job or hobby to steal stuff), and many of them show up on camera multiple times from different angles.
Crime goes by some skewed power law distributions and a relatively small number of people do most of the crime in any given area.
As an aside, security camera footage of a crime in your house is also great for your criminal defense (if you are going to use violence against the intruder) and for pressing a claim to an insurance company. If the intruder pulls a gun on you and you shoot him in response on camera, you can use that piece of evidence to get charges dropped against you or to prevent the police from even recommending charges in the first place.
Crime goes by some skewed power law distributions and a relatively small number of people do most of the crime in any given area.
As an aside, security camera footage of a crime in your house is also great for your criminal defense (if you are going to use violence against the intruder) and for pressing a claim to an insurance company. If the intruder pulls a gun on you and you shoot him in response on camera, you can use that piece of evidence to get charges dropped against you or to prevent the police from even recommending charges in the first place.
Does Palantir accept citizen's uploads?
The police are there to notarize your claims to the insurance company, as siblings illustrate. Once you're made whole, do you want to take the time to put a petty thief on trial? Every break-in is not an episode of Law & Order.
Wouldn't hold out much hope for the Creedence, though.
My only thought for practical use would be to checkup on a pet while you are away from home. Since if the pet has feel roam of the house you can't necessarily see if from a stationary camera.
Point the camera at the food dish.
When I go away, I put my old launch-day iPhone on a dock and aim it at the food dish. I has an app that polls that camera and checks for movement. If movement is detected, it sends a series of stills to me by e-mail.
The app is no longer available on the App Store, but it keeps working because the iPhone is too old to connect to the App Store and be told that the app no longer exists. But I should think that there's a modern equivalent out there somewhere.
When I go away, I put my old launch-day iPhone on a dock and aim it at the food dish. I has an app that polls that camera and checks for movement. If movement is detected, it sends a series of stills to me by e-mail.
The app is no longer available on the App Store, but it keeps working because the iPhone is too old to connect to the App Store and be told that the app no longer exists. But I should think that there's a modern equivalent out there somewhere.
> The app is no longer available on the App Store, but it keeps working because the iPhone is too old to connect to the App Store and be told that the app no longer exists.
Nice! But also sad that this is the only way one can keep running a desired app in this day where an external corporation controls what one is allowed to use.
Nice! But also sad that this is the only way one can keep running a desired app in this day where an external corporation controls what one is allowed to use.
I don’t think that apps on iPhones stop working just because the app was removed from from the store. You wouldn’t be able to get the app on a new phone, of course, but the old installed app should keep working. The comment might have been thinking of remotely-triggered app removal, which I believe is a rarely used function.
Apps aren't removed from devices in the event they're removed from the store.
good luck finding your cat after spinning up the beehive.
I've never been interested in using cameras for security concerns. By the time you need to use camera footage for a security concern, it's usually too late.
I think they're really handy for monitoring the status of routine household tasks, though.
"Did I get a package today? What time does the mail normally arrive? How is the dog doing? Did the garbage truck come by yet? Did the storm do any damage while I was away?"
I think they're really handy for monitoring the status of routine household tasks, though.
"Did I get a package today? What time does the mail normally arrive? How is the dog doing? Did the garbage truck come by yet? Did the storm do any damage while I was away?"
"Did I get a package today? What time does the mail normally arrive? How is the dog doing? Did the garbage truck come by yet? Did the storm do any damage while I was away?"
Most of that sounds like the side-effects of FOMO.
Did I get a package today?
Unless you live in a neighborhood or building where packages get stolen, who cares? You'll find it when you get home. If it's important, you have a tracking number and know if it was delivered.
What time does the mail normally arrive?
Who cares? My office window overlooks the mailboxes, and it comes at a different time every day. As long as it comes.
How is the dog doing?
He's fine. And if he's not, you'll find out when you get home.
Did the garbage truck come by yet?
Who cares? Even when I had an HMO, we had eight hours to get the trash cans off the curb.
Did the storm do any damage while I was away?
Nice to know, if it's a tornado. But again, there's nothing you can do, so why do you need to know? It's not like you're not going to push a button on your phone and magically lift your patio set out of the neighbor's pool. If you come home and see flashing emergency lights, then yes, there is damage.
Most of that sounds like the side-effects of FOMO.
Did I get a package today?
Unless you live in a neighborhood or building where packages get stolen, who cares? You'll find it when you get home. If it's important, you have a tracking number and know if it was delivered.
What time does the mail normally arrive?
Who cares? My office window overlooks the mailboxes, and it comes at a different time every day. As long as it comes.
How is the dog doing?
He's fine. And if he's not, you'll find out when you get home.
Did the garbage truck come by yet?
Who cares? Even when I had an HMO, we had eight hours to get the trash cans off the curb.
Did the storm do any damage while I was away?
Nice to know, if it's a tornado. But again, there's nothing you can do, so why do you need to know? It's not like you're not going to push a button on your phone and magically lift your patio set out of the neighbor's pool. If you come home and see flashing emergency lights, then yes, there is damage.
> Unless you live in a neighborhood or building where packages get stolen, who cares? You'll find it when you get home.
Some packages will fit in my mail slot. Some packages won't fit and will sit outside. If I bought something that could be damaged by water, and it is sitting outside in the rain, I might drop by the house to move it inside. If it is safely out of the weather, I can save time by not doing that.
> Who cares? My office window overlooks the mailboxes, and it comes at a different time every day. As long as it comes.
I have used the data from my cameras to find out that my mail comes on a fairly consistent schedule. If I am expecting an important letter (especially something that might be a prereq for other errands I have to run), this can be helpful information to plan my schedule in a way that saves time.
> Who cares? Even when I had an HMO, we had eight hours to get the trash cans off the curb.
I live on a hill, so it's nice to put my cans away promptly so I don't have to chase them down the street or retrieve them from the middle of the road. When they're empty it's easy for them to blow away.
> Nice to know, if it's a tornado. But again, there's nothing you can do, so why do you need to know?
I disagree with this more than anything. Plain ol' thunderstorms or winter storms can do significant damage, and if the damage is to the roof, a window, or a pipe, the resulting water damage could be exponentially more extensive if it isn't remediated quickly. I have some family who were on vacation when a pipe burst -- if they would have caught it quickly, it could have been mopped up and shut off. Instead they had to stay in a hotel while their interior was gutted and replaced.
Some packages will fit in my mail slot. Some packages won't fit and will sit outside. If I bought something that could be damaged by water, and it is sitting outside in the rain, I might drop by the house to move it inside. If it is safely out of the weather, I can save time by not doing that.
> Who cares? My office window overlooks the mailboxes, and it comes at a different time every day. As long as it comes.
I have used the data from my cameras to find out that my mail comes on a fairly consistent schedule. If I am expecting an important letter (especially something that might be a prereq for other errands I have to run), this can be helpful information to plan my schedule in a way that saves time.
> Who cares? Even when I had an HMO, we had eight hours to get the trash cans off the curb.
I live on a hill, so it's nice to put my cans away promptly so I don't have to chase them down the street or retrieve them from the middle of the road. When they're empty it's easy for them to blow away.
> Nice to know, if it's a tornado. But again, there's nothing you can do, so why do you need to know?
I disagree with this more than anything. Plain ol' thunderstorms or winter storms can do significant damage, and if the damage is to the roof, a window, or a pipe, the resulting water damage could be exponentially more extensive if it isn't remediated quickly. I have some family who were on vacation when a pipe burst -- if they would have caught it quickly, it could have been mopped up and shut off. Instead they had to stay in a hotel while their interior was gutted and replaced.
> Who cares? Even when I had an HMO, we had eight hours to get the trash cans off the curb.
What does your health care plan have to with getting talked to by the home owners association?
What does your health care plan have to with getting talked to by the home owners association?
They might've meant "HOA". Lol
"He's fine. And if he's not, you'll find out when you get home."
Or alternatively, if you have a camera, you can find out immediately and come home.
I use mine to find things I've misplaced. Saved my ass the other month when I was running late for a flight but couldn't find my keys.
Or alternatively, if you have a camera, you can find out immediately and come home.
I use mine to find things I've misplaced. Saved my ass the other month when I was running late for a flight but couldn't find my keys.
I'm not doubting you, but I'm seriously trying to picture this.
You were running late for the flight. Couldn't find your keys. Presumably pretty panicked. And you sat down and watched multiple streams of cameras to see if you might see yourself putting the keys down somewhere?
You were running late for the flight. Couldn't find your keys. Presumably pretty panicked. And you sat down and watched multiple streams of cameras to see if you might see yourself putting the keys down somewhere?
Well checking things on my camera is second nature now. Any time I don't know where something is, or want to know why something is on the floor or whatever, I check the camera. Usually one of my animals is responsible.
Also, being late for a flight doesn't make me panic.
Also, being late for a flight doesn't make me panic.
It might not be that bad, watching the 30 seconds after you last unlocked your house would probably do it.
Also, it’s good for checking up on your toddler. You can never be too safe, even if you leave him with a knife to defend himself with.
I just keep my keys in the same place. Never misplaced them.
I try to but sometimes I don't. say I was carrying a bunch of stuff in and couldn't get to the normal place I keep them, or I had taken them back to my desk to get to the yubikey or I needed the key to open my bicycles battery compartment, etc.
Or sometimes I just forget to take them out of my pocket.
Or sometimes I just forget to take them out of my pocket.
I’d take an old school “my dogs will bite your fucking balls off” sign over cameras any day.
Useful perhaps for diagnosing how the criminal gained access, but not really useful at all beyond that.
you get most of the benefit out of a security camera before you even turn it on. past that, probably only useful to document the actions you take if someone breaks in while you're actually home.
you get most of the benefit out of a security camera before you even turn it on
Reminds me of how in the 80's, Radio Shack used to sell fake car alarm stickers.
Reminds me of how in the 80's, Radio Shack used to sell fake car alarm stickers.
>Reminds me of how in the 80's, Radio Shack used to sell fake car alarm stickers.
Those aren't as useful as you might think.
I grew up in NYC, and in the late '70s/early '80s, people put all sorts of stickers and signs on their cars.
One time, I even saw a car with a broken window and a sign (presumably from the window that was broken) reading "No radio. Nothing of value."
The person who broke the window (at least I assume it was them) helpfully jotted "Just checking" on the sign.
Those aren't as useful as you might think.
I grew up in NYC, and in the late '70s/early '80s, people put all sorts of stickers and signs on their cars.
One time, I even saw a car with a broken window and a sign (presumably from the window that was broken) reading "No radio. Nothing of value."
The person who broke the window (at least I assume it was them) helpfully jotted "Just checking" on the sign.
Yeah, the arguments the author made against it aren't that strong, either. I like the idea of being able to check on my older but self sufficient pet (via a loud drone that will scare her unfortunately). I like knowing that if an intruder gets into the house, they will have to look directly at the camera and get close to swat it down. Quite a bit more difficult than defeating a static camera in the corner of a room.
if the quality of the images is anything like the Ring videos I used to see when I was on Nextdoor, the burglars have nothing to fear.
This was actually one of the first things along these lines that looked sorta interesting.
In normal times, I travel quite a bit. I do have one camera (RPi) looking outside along with a couple other sensors. And I don't really care enough to put cameras all over the house so I can look over things when I'm traveling. (Or, given where I live, enough to subscribe to a security service.)
But, for general peace of mind, to have a single device that lets me look in on things now and then? It actually seems reasonable.
In normal times, I travel quite a bit. I do have one camera (RPi) looking outside along with a couple other sensors. And I don't really care enough to put cameras all over the house so I can look over things when I'm traveling. (Or, given where I live, enough to subscribe to a security service.)
But, for general peace of mind, to have a single device that lets me look in on things now and then? It actually seems reasonable.
This sounds like the opposite of peace of mind. Instead my mind will be cluttered with decisions about whether or not to do a "look in" right now.
I have a lot of IoT devices in and around my home, including some cameras. I don't trust any of the smart devices, which is why they all have offline/locally controlled operation modes and are segmented off from the rest of the network with their own manufacturer/purpose specific VLANs and firewall rules.
I don't think most people comprehend what their devices are doing, or how their data could be used against them. My robovac has a LIDAR sensor that maps the house - that's cool - what isn't cool is that by default it uploads those maps to Xiaomi and they can connect it via GeoIP (or GPS if I ever use their app) and have the location and floorplan of my home. I'm not special enough for that information to be very valuable, but it's still super creepy and I would prefer they not have it.
I don't think most people comprehend what their devices are doing, or how their data could be used against them. My robovac has a LIDAR sensor that maps the house - that's cool - what isn't cool is that by default it uploads those maps to Xiaomi and they can connect it via GeoIP (or GPS if I ever use their app) and have the location and floorplan of my home. I'm not special enough for that information to be very valuable, but it's still super creepy and I would prefer they not have it.
Are you doing any hand-rolled home automation? I just finished building a house and I had power over ethernet (PoE) put throughout before I discovered that security items using this command a hefty price premium over simple wireless / battery operated. I've toyed with the idea of just buying a Raspberry Pi with a PoE module and a decent camera module and seeing if I can replicate the functionality for half the price or less (and obviously not valuing my time at anything).
I've made some done some stuff with ESP8266 boards - remote controllers for our A/C minisplits[1], motors for our shades[2], and a humidity sensor (DHT11) for our crawlspace.
Most devices are connected to HomeKit through a Pi running Homebridge. I wanted voice control and Apple is the company I distrust the least since they at least pretend to care about privacy.
I have only messed around a little with HomeAssistant, but that's what I would recommend if you want entirely locally controlled home automation. They even have a voice assistant[1] but for now it's worse than Siri, which is really saying something.
1: https://github.com/SwiCago/HeatPump 2: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2392856 3: https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2019/11/20/privacy-focuse...
Most devices are connected to HomeKit through a Pi running Homebridge. I wanted voice control and Apple is the company I distrust the least since they at least pretend to care about privacy.
I have only messed around a little with HomeAssistant, but that's what I would recommend if you want entirely locally controlled home automation. They even have a voice assistant[1] but for now it's worse than Siri, which is really saying something.
1: https://github.com/SwiCago/HeatPump 2: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2392856 3: https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2019/11/20/privacy-focuse...
Just a heads-up that DHT11 has ridiculously lousy humidity accuracy, I recommend going at least for DHT22.
You can buy splitters that convert the PoE into standard network + barrel power plug. Cost 20ish dollars and a roughly raspberry pi sized device in physical space.
One such example (Though I haven't used it personally): https://www.amazon.com/Amcrest-Splitter-Adapter-802-3af-comp...
One such example (Though I haven't used it personally): https://www.amazon.com/Amcrest-Splitter-Adapter-802-3af-comp...
I have used various PoE splitters over the years. They're very handy. The older generation had barrel plugs, but newer ones have various USB connectivity options too. If you're able to run cable PoE is pretty sweet. It's particularly nice to be able to put a single UPS in place to power a bunch of devices during power outages.
Check out the cube by pine64. Not available yet. But I bet it is exactly what you are looking for.
https://www.pine64.org/cube/
https://www.pine64.org/cube/
I wouldn't do my security stuff wirelessly if I was serious about it. A simple $2 esp8266 deauther is enough to disrupt WiFi and for the other protocols there's the option of jamming.
Our neighbor had his truck stolen and had a wireless camera in his front house. Last footage shows a car pull up across the street, a few minutes later the camera goes out, then when it comes back online the truck and car is gone. I guess the investigation decided it was jammed. So yeah, stick with wired systems.
Can't speak to PoE but Raspberry Pi works fine as a camera. I just have it shoot a still every hour that I can see on a web page. Also have a temperature sensor. Obviously I could password protect, add a motion sensor, save video, email, etc. if I wanted to get fancier.
IIRC the amcrest indoor cameras I use are POE compatible and they were like $50. Is that what you meant about a hefty price premium?
Check Ubiquiti's catalog - reasonably priced and plenty of PoE support.
where do you find the necessary protocol information for the various devices? that (and the trickiness of getting the firewall rules just right) seems to be a barrier to adoption for vlan'ing all the things. i still have issues with this on my little home network, typically with service discovery (e.g., mdns) and control app to device(s) communications (e.g., tradfri) across vlan boundaries.
Btw you should look into Valetudo for xiaomi vacuums it runs locally
https://github.com/Hypfer/Valetudo
https://github.com/Hypfer/Valetudo
Yep, running it for our roborock.
I have the model one step down and I just didn't go through with the app/wifi setup. Hadn't thought about using a VLAN.
How would my cameras be used against me? Pragmatically, not theoretically.
Are you a woman or do you live with any women you care about? It was just last year it was reported that Ring employees had access to live customer camera feeds and would regularly watch each other’s homes and joke about who each other had slept with.
If you’re okay with someone in front of a computer screen watching what you and the people you care about do through a camera or even share those videos across the internet, then you’re all good!
If you’re okay with someone in front of a computer screen watching what you and the people you care about do through a camera or even share those videos across the internet, then you’re all good!
Source?
Your other reply is horrible - LMGTFY has apparently gotten much worse and now uses their own heavily monetized search engine rather than Google - so here's a direct link to what the source probably is:
https://theintercept.com/2019/01/10/amazon-ring-security-cam...
> Although the source said they never personally witnessed any egregious abuses, they told The Intercept “if [someone] knew a reporter or competitor’s email address, [they] could view all their cameras.” The source also recounted instances of Ring engineers “teasing each other about who they brought home” after romantic dates. Although the engineers in question were aware that they were being surveilled by their co-workers in real time, the source questioned whether their companions were similarly informed.
https://theintercept.com/2019/01/10/amazon-ring-security-cam...
> Although the source said they never personally witnessed any egregious abuses, they told The Intercept “if [someone] knew a reporter or competitor’s email address, [they] could view all their cameras.” The source also recounted instances of Ring engineers “teasing each other about who they brought home” after romantic dates. Although the engineers in question were aware that they were being surveilled by their co-workers in real time, the source questioned whether their companions were similarly informed.
Whew, I'm a dude, so glad thoes cameras can't actually see me.
Does that also mean that the cameras can't see if a guy breaks into my house? That seems like a pretty big risk then.
Does that also mean that the cameras can't see if a guy breaks into my house? That seems like a pretty big risk then.
Assuming read access to your device: Detecting a shift in daily patterns to burgle your house when you're on vacation.
Assuming write access to your device: implanting false digital evidence on your device, calling the cops, and framing you
Assuming root access to your device and network: if you work from home, exfiltrating company-confidential from your home network. Running a botnet from your home.
Assuming write access to your device: implanting false digital evidence on your device, calling the cops, and framing you
Assuming root access to your device and network: if you work from home, exfiltrating company-confidential from your home network. Running a botnet from your home.
So IoT vendors working with local burglars? Or local cops? I guess we know Amazon certainly has done the latter... (but not to frame Ring owners, that would be an odd business model...) Having rogue IoT devices on your LAN attack other machines on it is a valid concern, though your traffic would be encrypted, and your actual workstations firewalled?
Part of concern is vulnerabilities in your devices when exposed to the internet. The manufacturer doesn’t have to be malicious, just infosec incompetent.
look at it this way, if major companies who spend billions to hire the best industry security experts to secure their devices and their networks still find themselves regularly compromised, then consider how many of the iot companies are tiny or/and clearly place a significantly higher value on marketing/sales/shareholder return then they do on security, then ask yourself if you want the security and very specific details of your life to reside in the data these companies devices collect.
i don’t want to say they’re malicious but it should be clear by now that a very tiny fraction of companies are taking the security of this data and it’s collectors at even a fraction of how serious they should. even behemoths like amazon have had massive problems with their devices and have been very loose with the data collected.
i don’t want to say they’re malicious but it should be clear by now that a very tiny fraction of companies are taking the security of this data and it’s collectors at even a fraction of how serious they should. even behemoths like amazon have had massive problems with their devices and have been very loose with the data collected.
I have worked with some electronics vendors. Their IT practices leave a lot to be desired.
I could completely see that someone working there could get access to all info on all clients without anyone noticing and selling it over dark net.
With long term access? I can think of a few options off the top of my head (obviously your sensitivity to them will depend on your situation):
- Blackmail
- Stalking
- Determining when you're out of your house, and for how long you're likely to be out of your house to plan burglary.
- Blackmail
- Stalking
- Determining when you're out of your house, and for how long you're likely to be out of your house to plan burglary.
If somebody ever gained access to Ring's online video storage, they could easily process it to get a list of addresses and home/not-home schedules. They then could sell subscription access to that online for cheap, giving criminals a huge list of target homes (wealthy enough to be buying amazon's security products) and when it is safe to break in to them.
What an odd feeling-- to see somebody discussing an illicit business and putting a subscription model to it. A sign of the times, I guess...
This was a thing starting in the early 10s. URL was something like burgleme.com. It used Facebook posts to identify when people were away from their homes.
Contrary to the promotional ads, I feel the main use case is to have a closer look at small things where your main cameras are unable to have a good enough look eg, is the stove or toaster still on? Did my kid leave his school project in his room? Did I drop my wallet in this spot? What is my cat or dog doing right now?
I have a few cameras and the cables are all hidden. The camera doesn't have to be mounted on a wall to be useful - mine sit on existing furniture and the cables hang down behind, out of sight.
As for their utility, meh, dubious utility. Yeah, I get a notice on my phone when they detect movement. That just means I know when my maid is moving between the basement and the living room. But, I know this going in - bought them more as a nerd gadget thing that actual security.
As for their utility, meh, dubious utility. Yeah, I get a notice on my phone when they detect movement. That just means I know when my maid is moving between the basement and the living room. But, I know this going in - bought them more as a nerd gadget thing that actual security.
A friend of a friend had a break in in his house last week and could see the burglars in his kids room via his cameras on his phone.
He also had the hopeless feeling of there being nothing to do, but had some sort of Eureka-moment and started playing “Fuck the police” on max volume on the floor above (all via his phone), and that apparently sent the burglars running!
(When he later talked to the cops they did call him a genius but questioned the song choice.)
He also had the hopeless feeling of there being nothing to do, but had some sort of Eureka-moment and started playing “Fuck the police” on max volume on the floor above (all via his phone), and that apparently sent the burglars running!
(When he later talked to the cops they did call him a genius but questioned the song choice.)
Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you
or
One way, or another, I'm gonna find ya
I'm gonna get ya get ya get ya get ya!
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you
or
One way, or another, I'm gonna find ya
I'm gonna get ya get ya get ya get ya!
The theme song from Cops ("Bad Boys" by Inner Circle) would have been brilliant, actually
The distinctive sound of a walkie talkie chirp is also a good sound to play, had it as my message alert on my phone - the number of people who suddenly think your a cop and get spooked.
Though any music works best as shows somebody in and most burglars don't want anybody there as then it becomes a robbery and those sentences are higher. So playing music good and your choice is pretty excellent in the psychological factor upon the burglars.
Though any music works best as shows somebody in and most burglars don't want anybody there as then it becomes a robbery and those sentences are higher. So playing music good and your choice is pretty excellent in the psychological factor upon the burglars.
A bit of recorded police scanner chatter was used by Mark Rober on his Glitter Bomb 2.0:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=a_TSR_v07m0&t=3m29s
https://youtube.com/watch?v=a_TSR_v07m0&t=3m29s
Wasn't that faked anyway
Please don't create low-effort posts like this that criticize / question the veracity of another post with zero evidence or context, it just creates noise and makes it harder for people to trust content posted on Hacker News.
If the above video was faked, and you could post a link or some context showing how it was faked, that would be a good contribution.
Thanks :)
If the above video was faked, and you could post a link or some context showing how it was faked, that would be a good contribution.
Thanks :)
Here is an article where they discuss how some of the reactions in the initial version of the video were faked (by an acquaintance of the video's creator who was hired to help), but the creator acknowledged the issue (which he wasn't aware of when he initially published the video) and rectified it by removing those clips from the video: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/21/glitter-bomb-video-was-parti...
"I'm gonna give you to the count of three, to get your lousy, lyin', no good, low down, four flushing carcass out my door! 1, 2..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_bUcNjmuSk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_bUcNjmuSk
KRS-One "sound of da police"
Just thought of "Body count is in the house" by Body count. It starts with police sirens, and it is "loud" enough.
The intro to 50 Cent's Massacre may also be a good chice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNBbQV_rCzQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNBbQV_rCzQ
to the contrary if he played the Public Enemy song loud I think they'd fear being counter ambushed by some thugs unless the house gave away the identity of the owner. In otherwords the criminals may recognize that specific song, or at least discern some hard old school rap music.
A couple options
* Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins
* Welcome to the Jungle by Guns N Roses
* Surfin' Bird by Trashmen
* Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins
* Welcome to the Jungle by Guns N Roses
* Surfin' Bird by Trashmen
Even without visible wires I don't think many people would put security cameras in every room. This drone looks like a good solution to check on the house while you are away without compromising everyday privacy (you can always turn it off when not in use). Also good tool for those of us being paranoid if they turned off the stove/water/etc.
Settings > Accessibility > Sound Recognition
https://www.theverge.com/21300261/ios-14-update-smoke-alarm-...
https://www.theverge.com/21300261/ios-14-update-smoke-alarm-...
Preventing break-ins isn't the point of security cameras. Their purpose is reacting to break-ins. Maybe you can give the police a picture of the burglar's face. Or their license plate or car make/model/color. You can see what they took, so you don't leave something off your insurance claim because you hadn't yet noticed it was missing. Your dog can't do any of these things, and a camera is a much smaller commitment than a pet.
Is there a jurisdiction where the cops actually care to track down burglars? The clearance rate is something like <20% in the US and I suspect many of those were luck based (ie: the caught the burglar for something else and found stolen property).
I've had cops show up the next day, take fingerprints, footprints, give me a call a few weeks later when they tracked down the perp. I don't live in the USA though...
If you're a cop or government official high up enough that being on your good side is useful to the cops it will get solved.
> If you want home security that can reach all parts of your home, and provide alerts when someone breaks in, get a dog.
Also don't get a Lab because he'll just lick the hands of the burgler.
Also don't get a Lab because he'll just lick the hands of the burgler.
> wireless security cameras are a pain because you have to remember to recharge them
Wouldn't you just have them located near an outlet so they could be plugged in all the time?
> Perhaps in the not-too-distant future, your Homepod can detect the dog barking and hit you with a text message.
Considering that our dogs bark at things way across the street, we'd be bombarded with false alarm text messages with a system like this. :-)
Wouldn't you just have them located near an outlet so they could be plugged in all the time?
> Perhaps in the not-too-distant future, your Homepod can detect the dog barking and hit you with a text message.
Considering that our dogs bark at things way across the street, we'd be bombarded with false alarm text messages with a system like this. :-)
I don't know what your situation looks like but nearly every spot I can think of where a camera would work well there is no outlet. Not too many people have outlets just hanging out up near the ceiling in corners or on the outside of their homes on the roof.
[deleted]
> It's marketed as a security device, but it's not like a toy quadcopter is going to stop an intruder any better than a non-flying camera. Which means "not at all."
Maybe version 2.0 will have lasers?
Maybe version 2.0 will have lasers?
I believe this is version 2:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA
https://youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA
Claymore Roomba was ahead of it's time.
> the dog can't alert you when you're not home
That's a business model right there!
That's a business model right there!
> iOS has the built-in ability to detect dogs barking
Say what? Seriously?
Say what? Seriously?
It's actually at the hardware level. The 64-bit Apple K9 chip.
I’m sorry that your wife won’t allow you to make your own decisions.
I’m sorry that your wife won’t allow you to make your own decisions.
I'm not. It's a marriage. We make decisions together.
I'm not. It's a marriage. We make decisions together.
I'm not married but not all wives are the same. My gf wouldn't care :)
/remindme after this guy finds out how it is
I've been married >15 years and agree with the comment you're replying to. Are you going to drop the same low-effort reply on me?
What are you talking about? Is your marriage living out some outdated trope of totally changing after your wedding?
Is your marriage living out some outdated trope
If your worldview some stereotype of calling everything you haven't experienced "outdated?" That's borderline ageism right there. Celebrate diversity.
If your worldview some stereotype of calling everything you haven't experienced "outdated?" That's borderline ageism right there. Celebrate diversity.
/remindme after this guy finds out how it is
TBH I think the best use case for this device is anxious pet owners who want to check up on how their pets are doing. Often pets sit somewhere where the cameras are not pointing.
But this also might not be good for the pet's mental health either as a loud ass drone buzzes around them.
But this also might not be good for the pet's mental health either as a loud ass drone buzzes around them.
My dogs would make it their mission to knock the drone out of the sky and manually dissect it with their teeth to learn its secrets.
> Then again, iOS has the built-in ability to detect dogs barking and react to that. Perhaps in the not-too-distant future, your Homepod can detect the dog barking and hit you with a text message.
Oh cool. I always wanted to get texts all day alerting me to people walking dogs across the street and that the squirrel that lives in the tree in the front yard has descended again.
Oh cool. I always wanted to get texts all day alerting me to people walking dogs across the street and that the squirrel that lives in the tree in the front yard has descended again.
Dearest human,
I would like to politely inform you that the neighbor has gone out to get the mail. This is an urgent matter, you must attend to it at once.
Sincerely,
Doggo
I would like to politely inform you that the neighbor has gone out to get the mail. This is an urgent matter, you must attend to it at once.
Sincerely,
Doggo
I've actually started classifying my dog's barking since starting to work at home.
There's the "neighbor let the dog out" barking, unexpected car door, terrible music, that creepy neighbor guy, battlestations: generally unfamiliar dog or delivery person pulled up.
They can actually communicate quite a lot.
There's the "neighbor let the dog out" barking, unexpected car door, terrible music, that creepy neighbor guy, battlestations: generally unfamiliar dog or delivery person pulled up.
They can actually communicate quite a lot.
YES! My poodle has all the above. You can definitly tell the difference between "I see something" and "I hear something but idk what". Snowplows are DEFCON1.
Also, "there's something I want but I can't get it", very similar to "I want to be somewhere but I'm stuck" (usually she trapped herself in the bathroom). Even though both are a shrill YARP, the former is insistent, the latter is uncertain.
Then there's "throw the damn ball already", "cat, get away from my food", and the ultra rare yet adorable ambulance howl.
Also, "there's something I want but I can't get it", very similar to "I want to be somewhere but I'm stuck" (usually she trapped herself in the bathroom). Even though both are a shrill YARP, the former is insistent, the latter is uncertain.
Then there's "throw the damn ball already", "cat, get away from my food", and the ultra rare yet adorable ambulance howl.
>There's no way my wife would allow all those wires everywhere. And the wireless security cameras are a pain because you have to remember to recharge them.
Several manufacturers sell battery powered cameras that last up to two years without charging. Or you can get solar powered ones for outdoors. They have very low power consumption as they're normally off, until PIR triggered. That's a reasonable trade off, I think. The downside is triggering is potentially unreliable and they're not good for continuous monitoring/recording. But for detecting someone at the door, or in your garden, they're not a bad choice.
Several manufacturers sell battery powered cameras that last up to two years without charging. Or you can get solar powered ones for outdoors. They have very low power consumption as they're normally off, until PIR triggered. That's a reasonable trade off, I think. The downside is triggering is potentially unreliable and they're not good for continuous monitoring/recording. But for detecting someone at the door, or in your garden, they're not a bad choice.
TBH My main use for home "security" cameras has just been to check-in on my cats while away, and make sure that the people who're coming by to take care of them have given them food etc.
A flying security drone solves a few big problems for me A) sometimes a cat decides not to come downstairs for a while, being able to see them is great. B) Stuff gets wrecked while we're gone, its nice to know what we're walking in to and figure out how to have less stuff wrecked in the future.
I'd imagine other folks have various "peace of mind" concerns while away such as the classic "did I leave the oven on?". A patrolling camera is the perfect solution to this problem and is only tangentially related to true home security.
A flying security drone solves a few big problems for me A) sometimes a cat decides not to come downstairs for a while, being able to see them is great. B) Stuff gets wrecked while we're gone, its nice to know what we're walking in to and figure out how to have less stuff wrecked in the future.
I'd imagine other folks have various "peace of mind" concerns while away such as the classic "did I leave the oven on?". A patrolling camera is the perfect solution to this problem and is only tangentially related to true home security.
> Now, before the wannabe This Old House crowd starts up with "You just put the wires in the walls," consider that 43% of Americans rent their homes, and the number is even higher in other countries. The vast majority of landlords won't allow you to run wires in the walls.
It also assumes typical American construction styles. In my country all houses are made of brick. Opening up the walls to run some cables is often borderline impossible.
It also assumes typical American construction styles. In my country all houses are made of brick. Opening up the walls to run some cables is often borderline impossible.
I’d be perfectly happy to buy tons of gadgetry like ring and nest products just so long as it doesn’t need some kind of cloud service, and it doesn’t need any kind of subscription.
The drone looks really well designed and practical (compared to buying dozens of separate cameras you can have just a couple, and a drone).
Yet most things that come to market are exactly this. Cloud services, subsctiptions and integration with these “smart speakers” (I’m not getting one of those either, so long as they are connected to whoever sold it rather than just to the weather web service).
I wish someone who didn’t have an interest in knowing everything about everyone but could actually make money from hardware would do this.
Is there really no market for that?
The drone looks really well designed and practical (compared to buying dozens of separate cameras you can have just a couple, and a drone).
Yet most things that come to market are exactly this. Cloud services, subsctiptions and integration with these “smart speakers” (I’m not getting one of those either, so long as they are connected to whoever sold it rather than just to the weather web service).
I wish someone who didn’t have an interest in knowing everything about everyone but could actually make money from hardware would do this.
Is there really no market for that?
Thats because the "real" product they are selling is the data collection. Also, subscription services are much more attractive to companies because its a guaranteed and predictable revenue stream.
Also, doing everything over the internet to centralized "cloud" servers is easier to develop for and manage, and its easier on the end user to set up, strengthening the product. Although I think this is more of a cherry on top of the big pile of data they're getting on you.
It also probably subsidizes the unit cost. Companies would much rather sell you a "cheaper" device with a subscription plan than a potentially more expensive device with one-time payment. Your average consumer will choose the device that is cheaper up-front for the same reasons.
The technical, privacy-focused crowd that tends to populate this forum is already being served by the type of cameras you can already buy on Monoprice, Newegg, or some other related store. Can you imagine a company like Amazon selling that kind of product? I sure can't.
With that said, if anyone would sell a privacy-focused device with all the same benefits as Ring, it would probably be Apple since privacy is part of their brand. I don't think the odds of that happening soon are high, but I could be wrong.
Also, doing everything over the internet to centralized "cloud" servers is easier to develop for and manage, and its easier on the end user to set up, strengthening the product. Although I think this is more of a cherry on top of the big pile of data they're getting on you.
It also probably subsidizes the unit cost. Companies would much rather sell you a "cheaper" device with a subscription plan than a potentially more expensive device with one-time payment. Your average consumer will choose the device that is cheaper up-front for the same reasons.
The technical, privacy-focused crowd that tends to populate this forum is already being served by the type of cameras you can already buy on Monoprice, Newegg, or some other related store. Can you imagine a company like Amazon selling that kind of product? I sure can't.
With that said, if anyone would sell a privacy-focused device with all the same benefits as Ring, it would probably be Apple since privacy is part of their brand. I don't think the odds of that happening soon are high, but I could be wrong.
>Thats because the "real" product they are selling is the data collection. Also, subscription services are much more attractive to companies because its a guaranteed and predictable revenue stream
that's the money-shot line . you nailed it
that's the money-shot line . you nailed it
For the most part people are not capable of having internet connected IoT devices that don’t go to third party servers. You really think it’s a good idea to open up ports to shitty Chinese cameras inside your house and let them run as servers on the naked internet? Cameras that connect to third party servers need subscriptions to pay for the resources they consume.
Cameras that don’t need to be accessed over the internet are not the same market as internet connected cameras. For a thousand bucks or so you can get a few decent cameras and an NVR and have all the local camera viewing and recording you want. But most people don’t really need that.
Cameras that don’t need to be accessed over the internet are not the same market as internet connected cameras. For a thousand bucks or so you can get a few decent cameras and an NVR and have all the local camera viewing and recording you want. But most people don’t really need that.
This is one of the problems that need solving. Perhaps I could buy a service from a third party that could relay or store traffic from things in my home, without me having to fear that it’s used for advertising?
Pine64 is making a privacy focused camera gadget, but it isn't out yet. Not sure what the story around the apps is going to be though.
https://www.pine64.org/cube/
https://www.pine64.org/cube/
I’m building a nationwide network that’s focused on privacy. Currently designed to find missing pets but other applications are planned as well.
Don't pretty much all drones need internet access in order to confirm it is not flying in a restricted area? Unless you baked in the maps beforehand, I suppose. My brother bought a drone to inspect my parents' roof for damage, but then he couldn't even fly it until it updated the maps and after that there was baked in DRM saying the current GPS coordinates were restricted (likely because of nearby military base) and the drone refused to take off.
Seems like the golden age of drones for hobbyist pilots was before all the regulation kicked in, but in this case perhaps Ring could get an exception to restricted areas since they are indoor drones.
Seems like the golden age of drones for hobbyist pilots was before all the regulation kicked in, but in this case perhaps Ring could get an exception to restricted areas since they are indoor drones.
There are plenty of toy drones with cameras and no location awareness. I’m pretty sure that functionality is not legally required, but is just enabled by drone manufacturers who don’t want their products causing trouble. And I believe anything under 8 ounces doesn’t even need to be registered with the FAA, and it’s likely that this little drone camera is under that.
> there was baked in DRM saying the current GPS coordinates were restricted
seems like you've answered your own question there
seems like you've answered your own question there
Well I suppose it's possible to have a drone that doesn't need internet access as long as all the maps are pre-loaded. But since new airports are built and restricted areas are updated, most drones require internet to update the maps.
I imagine there is 100% a good medium sized market for disconnect smart home technology but no one cares about medium markets anymore? The BIG players are in on this space and they know if they make a cheap and ubiquitous enough product the next treasure trove of data is theirs.
So, any company in that space is competing against FAANG which is pretty daunting...
So, any company in that space is competing against FAANG which is pretty daunting...
I work for a residential IoT company.
The issue with remote access is you need a service in the middle to provide that remote access, and provide it securely. Otherwise you're just talking something in the home (BLE, etc).
If you don't have some type of service the average consumer will not be able to use it, people aren't going to setup NAS devices, or other servers in their house to collect video data. Even a wireless DVR system can be a pain (another box, likely another TV to see it, etc).
I know that this community is more on the side of the skepticism of collecting data, but keep in mind the total addressable market is mostly people who don't want to deal with these problems.
Now if you're talking about "if the cloud service is down my device doesn't work" then I completely agree, these devices need to have enough local functionality to operate/buffer without their service working for extended periods of time, or being removed.
The issue with remote access is you need a service in the middle to provide that remote access, and provide it securely. Otherwise you're just talking something in the home (BLE, etc).
If you don't have some type of service the average consumer will not be able to use it, people aren't going to setup NAS devices, or other servers in their house to collect video data. Even a wireless DVR system can be a pain (another box, likely another TV to see it, etc).
I know that this community is more on the side of the skepticism of collecting data, but keep in mind the total addressable market is mostly people who don't want to deal with these problems.
Now if you're talking about "if the cloud service is down my device doesn't work" then I completely agree, these devices need to have enough local functionality to operate/buffer without their service working for extended periods of time, or being removed.
Ring already has a base station. Why doesn't that base station have a solid state drive to store all the video/images, and allow the user to view them on their smart phone by connecting to the base station through the wifi?
The argument "you need to upload all your data to our servers or you'll likely have to get another to TV to view it" is just beyond lame.
The argument "you need to upload all your data to our servers or you'll likely have to get another to TV to view it" is just beyond lame.
> Why doesn't that base station have a solid state drive to store all the video/images
Everything is cheaper per pound in a data center. And they can force updates if the client is dumber.
And the customers won't complain when the SSD eventually dies.
> and allow the user to view them on their smart phone by connecting to the base station through the wifi?
Because people will want to do it across WAN. LAN-only is one piece of code, WAN-only is another. Going up to WAN for everything is redundant but costs less dev time.
Yes, it's frustrating for us who care about privacy. The motive is never to build a good product that respects people and does what they want. The motive is always to make money. Every corner must be cut.
Everything is cheaper per pound in a data center. And they can force updates if the client is dumber.
And the customers won't complain when the SSD eventually dies.
> and allow the user to view them on their smart phone by connecting to the base station through the wifi?
Because people will want to do it across WAN. LAN-only is one piece of code, WAN-only is another. Going up to WAN for everything is redundant but costs less dev time.
Yes, it's frustrating for us who care about privacy. The motive is never to build a good product that respects people and does what they want. The motive is always to make money. Every corner must be cut.
> Everything is cheaper per pound in a data center....Going up to WAN for everything is redundant but costs less dev time.
Yes, agreed. That's just a totally different argument than the one supergeek133 made, so my point stands.
Yes, agreed. That's just a totally different argument than the one supergeek133 made, so my point stands.
Yes my argument was business and ease for the customer, not what this is.
I suspect the answer is not a technical one, but a business one. I'm guessing that adding local-only usage features just aren't profitable enough (not enough increase in market share by implementing them) for Ring to justify the effort.
Running a platform costs money, many IoT products turn cost negative quickly if you don't introduce some type of value added service/ongoing revenue.
That being said I've always been a huge proponent of allowing some type of local control. Think of people in the automation market (Control 4, CEDIA type stuff) where it would simply be faster.
Even Google/Amazon allow local lambda function type activities that would be much better experience if we allowed local control.
But that also changes your security landscape.
That being said I've always been a huge proponent of allowing some type of local control. Think of people in the automation market (Control 4, CEDIA type stuff) where it would simply be faster.
Even Google/Amazon allow local lambda function type activities that would be much better experience if we allowed local control.
But that also changes your security landscape.
Everything else that the other people listed (cost model, pricing, etc.) PLUS, if it is a box, you can follow the cables or look where the TV/router is, find the box, take it with you, and the evidence is gone.
Like this, even if the perpetrator takes the camera/bell with him/her, the evidence stays on the cloud.
Also, for evidence to be admissible in a court of law, one has to prove the chain of custody. Something in your laptop is more prone to editing than a video sitting on a cloud where logs vouch for its integrity.
Edit: don't let me invoke the gods of security frameworks. My laptop at home is not ISO27001 compliant, has never been assessed for security etc. The infrastructure of Ring (I believe) is regularly assessed/audited.
Like this, even if the perpetrator takes the camera/bell with him/her, the evidence stays on the cloud.
Also, for evidence to be admissible in a court of law, one has to prove the chain of custody. Something in your laptop is more prone to editing than a video sitting on a cloud where logs vouch for its integrity.
Edit: don't let me invoke the gods of security frameworks. My laptop at home is not ISO27001 compliant, has never been assessed for security etc. The infrastructure of Ring (I believe) is regularly assessed/audited.
My question was rhetorical. As I said elsewhere, I was criticizing supergeek133's particular justification, not actually looking for the real reason.
The ""you need to upload all your data to our servers or you'll likely have to get another to TV to view it"" argument was involving the typical 8-camera wired DVR systems you commonly see in restaurants and in some homes.
It needs to be connected to a TV to view the video locally, or you need to have some technical knowledge to setup RTSP on your LAN.
Again, total addressable market.
It needs to be connected to a TV to view the video locally, or you need to have some technical knowledge to setup RTSP on your LAN.
Again, total addressable market.
Ok, but then how is that relevant to the topic? Folks in this thread are complaining that Ring wants to gobble up all the user data for services that could be offered without a cloud connection (including remote video watching). The reasons, as far as I can tell, are that (1) it's a bit cheaper through the cloud because of economies of scale and (2) Ring makes money off the data. It is not because it unavoidably requires technical sophistication/effort by the user.
Do you disagree?
Do you disagree?
The issue with remote access is you need a service in the middle to provide that remote access, and provide it securely. Otherwise you're just talking something in the home (BLE, etc).
Does Apple use iCloud for HomeKit, or is it all on the iPad/AppleTV that acts as the home hub?
Does Apple use iCloud for HomeKit, or is it all on the iPad/AppleTV that acts as the home hub?
I've had two HomeKit cameras at home for a while now. HomeKit cameras default to stream only (via the homebridge) while any of the people who have access to the camera are home. When everyone's out, it records/streams to iCloud, and this part is purportedly end to end encrypted, so that only devices of people who've been granted access to the camera(s) can watch it.
Homekit devices also require a mFI chip to participate in HomeKit (or develop software to connect to another device in the home with mFI chip).
> The issue with remote access is you need a service in the middle to provide that remote access, and provide it securely.
This is a pain, but solvable by punching holes in all the NAT pair combinations. At a previous startup we all communication peer to peer (phones, custom home devices, laptops), no data traversed our servers ("the cloud"). It worked beautifully.
This is a pain, but solvable by punching holes in all the NAT pair combinations. At a previous startup we all communication peer to peer (phones, custom home devices, laptops), no data traversed our servers ("the cloud"). It worked beautifully.
> keep in mind the total addressable market is mostly people who don't want to deal with these problems.
> This is a pain, but solvable by punching holes in all the NAT pair combinations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3RqDp7i308
> This is a pain, but solvable by punching holes in all the NAT pair combinations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3RqDp7i308
I think I wasn't clear in the first post. The customer did not have to do anything (i.e. no need to configure any NAT passthroughs on their router etc), this was entirely transparent to the user.
I get that most people don't like to deal with that sort of set up. But we live in a world where the Raspberry Pi is extremely popular, yet also the most average consumer unfriendly computer in the entire world. Not everything needs to be a mass market product to be successful.
What's the sales of Raspberry Pi versus something like a connected camera (Nest cam, dropcam, etc).
"Popular" is relative.
"Popular" is relative.
> I’d be perfectly happy to buy tons of gadgetry like ring and nest products just so long as it doesn’t need some kind of cloud service, and it doesn’t need any kind of subscription.
Same here. Is there any company working on this product space?
It will never be created by a large corporation or VC-backed startup because those have a need to extract every penny of income from the product line which means there will be a subscription and there will be cloud data gathering which will be sold to advertisers.
But a small privately held company could sustainably target the niche of stand-alone home automation devices for the target audiences who care about privacy and/or prefer no recurring monthly fee.
(I worked on a startup addressing a small segment of this space but over time we (the initial engineering team) lost control to the investors and it morphed into a cloud-dependent service and then promptly died. Would love to work on that space again but without the investors to keep the focus sharp.)
Same here. Is there any company working on this product space?
It will never be created by a large corporation or VC-backed startup because those have a need to extract every penny of income from the product line which means there will be a subscription and there will be cloud data gathering which will be sold to advertisers.
But a small privately held company could sustainably target the niche of stand-alone home automation devices for the target audiences who care about privacy and/or prefer no recurring monthly fee.
(I worked on a startup addressing a small segment of this space but over time we (the initial engineering team) lost control to the investors and it morphed into a cloud-dependent service and then promptly died. Would love to work on that space again but without the investors to keep the focus sharp.)
> “They’re using this type of consumer data to create a database version of who you are, and then using it to sell you things. The data collected is increasingly invasive, as with the Ring drone capabilities, such as mapping your home and collecting audio and dynamic aerial video of you and your family in your bedrooms, bathrooms, everywhere you live.”
> As this July article from the EFF points out, “with a warrant, police could also circumvent the device’s owner and get footage straight from Amazon, even if the owner denied the police.” The EFF is talking about the Ring doorbell camera here, but it’s not clear to me that the Ring drone would be an exception.
Yes, creepy does not even begin to describe my feelings.
> As this July article from the EFF points out, “with a warrant, police could also circumvent the device’s owner and get footage straight from Amazon, even if the owner denied the police.” The EFF is talking about the Ring doorbell camera here, but it’s not clear to me that the Ring drone would be an exception.
Yes, creepy does not even begin to describe my feelings.
So basically you install a snitch for the biggest corporation on earth that does not needs a warrant to share any of the recording with the police so you can have a neat toy. And I thought ring was creepy.
"It looks like you're running low on {insert random product}. Would you like to buy more?"
"It looks like you're running low on {insert random product}. Would you like to buy more?"
My air cleaning machine has the option to phone home and automatically order replacement filters.
3M has an air filter that Bluetooths with an app that will automatically order new air filters.
The copier at work automatically orders new toner when it runs low. (Though not soon enough, and the threshold is not adjustable.)
I had an HP home printer that also had this ability.
My air cleaning machine has the option to phone home and automatically order replacement filters.
3M has an air filter that Bluetooths with an app that will automatically order new air filters.
The copier at work automatically orders new toner when it runs low. (Though not soon enough, and the threshold is not adjustable.)
I had an HP home printer that also had this ability.
"It looks like you're running low on {product}. I have ordered Amazon Basics {product}. Please check your email if you would like to cancel the order in the next thirty minutes."
Do you have a source for them not needing a warrant?
Is it just in the Ring terms of service or something?
Is it just in the Ring terms of service or something?
Yeah most of these companies say "we'll share your information with local law enforcement upon request and we may require a warrant at our discretion."
Anything that gets rid of pointless anxiety for me is good. If I can have someone in the passenger seat search for the cabin keys while I drive back home, or check if I turned off the stove, or that the fridge door is closed, or that I left the tap not running, or the windows closed, or that I left enough food for the itty bitty cataroons.
But I use drugs, so I'm sorry homie, I ain't giving the cops straightline access into the house.
But I use drugs, so I'm sorry homie, I ain't giving the cops straightline access into the house.
I was like "yeah yeah yeah same" until the drug part haha
Haha! Objective achieved! Psychedelics maaaan, it's a magical journey, man. Entheogens are a great way to search for meaning, dude.
Whatever, not interested in burglars. I could've used that thing to check basic status of the apartment that I don't use. Broken windows, water leaks and stuff.
I also find it interesting for a place I leave empty for months at a time, but for that purpose doesn't it seem... fragile?
Seriously: I haven't put in a camera because my DSL craps out every month or so and requires a hard modem reboot to reconnect, which seems like a lot to ask from the friend who checks my mail.
I would love to see a solution tailored to people not in their domiciles, but I don't feel like this is it.
This announcement (not yet a product!) is for people who really need to look around the places they're going to return to in a day or two anyway, max. Maybe that's a market; it's not me.
Seriously: I haven't put in a camera because my DSL craps out every month or so and requires a hard modem reboot to reconnect, which seems like a lot to ask from the friend who checks my mail.
I would love to see a solution tailored to people not in their domiciles, but I don't feel like this is it.
This announcement (not yet a product!) is for people who really need to look around the places they're going to return to in a day or two anyway, max. Maybe that's a market; it's not me.
One option for ADSL: power timer plug. Turn off from 3am for 5 min.
This seems like a much more useful usecase to me than burglars, but apparently you can't manually control the device beyond automated paths, which makes this almost useless I think.
But even if you could manually control the device, I'd be too afraid of having Amazon capturing full video of all my belongings. They have the resources to easily hook up the feed to an object detection ETL or some other AI system to extract a ton of information about the owners, and then sell that as specialized advertising intelligence. All of a sudden my mailbox fills up with lots of high focused ads.
OK I realize that's probably going down the conspiracy theory path a little much :), but I don't think it's too far off.
But even if you could manually control the device, I'd be too afraid of having Amazon capturing full video of all my belongings. They have the resources to easily hook up the feed to an object detection ETL or some other AI system to extract a ton of information about the owners, and then sell that as specialized advertising intelligence. All of a sudden my mailbox fills up with lots of high focused ads.
OK I realize that's probably going down the conspiracy theory path a little much :), but I don't think it's too far off.
Honestly I would be shocked if that's not the goal. Imagine being able to not only know someone has your product, but not advertise to them until that product disappears, is in a state of disrepair, or reaches a particular age.
It wouldn't surprise me if this was a goal but they should really figure out basic recommendations first.
I just bought a power washer. I bought it on Amazon. Amazon easily knows I now own a power washer. And yet Amazon is giving me a ton of recommendations for power washers.
This is a constant problem with recommendations and everyone I know has the same experience.
And unless there's some sort of data regulation preventing them from applying my purchase history to their recommendations it's ridiculously easy to fix. Tag item categories as "1 per household over x months" and when someone purchase amount goes beyond the threshold stop recommending products from that category until x months has passed.
I just bought a power washer. I bought it on Amazon. Amazon easily knows I now own a power washer. And yet Amazon is giving me a ton of recommendations for power washers.
This is a constant problem with recommendations and everyone I know has the same experience.
And unless there's some sort of data regulation preventing them from applying my purchase history to their recommendations it's ridiculously easy to fix. Tag item categories as "1 per household over x months" and when someone purchase amount goes beyond the threshold stop recommending products from that category until x months has passed.
It seems to be a general problem with recommendation engines.
I assume that manually tagging certain types of items with a flag that means "The buyer is unlikely to buy another item in this category within a meaningful timeframe no matter how often we recommend it" is more effort than the recommendation slot is worth. There are probably a number of flags one could imagine setting but it's likely very hard to automate because it requires understanding how people use/consume/upgrade/etc. a given item.
I assume that manually tagging certain types of items with a flag that means "The buyer is unlikely to buy another item in this category within a meaningful timeframe no matter how often we recommend it" is more effort than the recommendation slot is worth. There are probably a number of flags one could imagine setting but it's likely very hard to automate because it requires understanding how people use/consume/upgrade/etc. a given item.
Do you seriously think that Amazon never thought of not showing you a second power washer? The data must show that this is more profitable than the alternatives.
I have Google advertising to me, on my Pixel 3a using Google Fi, in my Gmail app, telling me about how I should sign up for Google Fi.
I have a pretty good hunch that these companies often do stupid stuff like this.
I have a pretty good hunch that these companies often do stupid stuff like this.
And Verizon is constantly mailing me to switch to FIOS. And when I look on their site to look up FIOS availability, it's not actually available.
For some reason, both Comcast and Verizon also have my address as a variant on my real postal service address that hasn't been true since before I moved here over 20 years ago.
For some reason, both Comcast and Verizon also have my address as a variant on my real postal service address that hasn't been true since before I moved here over 20 years ago.
Of course that's what they'll use it for. Don't worry -- the terms and conditions that nobody reads or could understand even if they did read, says they just send "metadata" back to improve the user experience.
I'm the founder of Cobalt Robotics [1]. We develop "security" robots for commercial spaces -- though ours are wheeled, have a screen for 2-way video chats, etc.
Turns out that security is a euphemism for "observation & reporting." Use cases span a host of shared services: Traditional Security, Employee Health & Safety, Facilities Management (e.g. leaks & spills), Customer Service, and others. Breaking & Enterings do happen, but they are rare. Facilities incidents such as the ones you mentioned are vastly more common.
[1] https://www.cobaltrobotics.com/
Turns out that security is a euphemism for "observation & reporting." Use cases span a host of shared services: Traditional Security, Employee Health & Safety, Facilities Management (e.g. leaks & spills), Customer Service, and others. Breaking & Enterings do happen, but they are rare. Facilities incidents such as the ones you mentioned are vastly more common.
[1] https://www.cobaltrobotics.com/
Just curious - is there a chart on your site comparing you to Knightscope or other offerings?
We haven't shared one publicly, though I have plenty in private slide decks. Feel free to reach out (email in profile). A few highlights:
* We are exclusively indoors at this time.
* We're the only indoor provider that can manage doors & elevators.
* We have 2-way video in addition to 2-way audio.
* We provide a comprehensive service: hardware, software, service & maintenance, and remote monitoring.
* We manage multiple, redundant 24/7 command centers, with operators speaking dozens of languages.
* We have SOC2 certifications & deal with GDPR - shockingly, no other providers are SOC2 certified.
* We offer rich applications on the robot's screen, including visitor management, forms, etc.
* We can perform COVID-related features, such as elevated temperature screening using FLIR cameras, promoting social distancing, and enforcing PPE.
* We support international operations too.
* We are exclusively indoors at this time.
* We're the only indoor provider that can manage doors & elevators.
* We have 2-way video in addition to 2-way audio.
* We provide a comprehensive service: hardware, software, service & maintenance, and remote monitoring.
* We manage multiple, redundant 24/7 command centers, with operators speaking dozens of languages.
* We have SOC2 certifications & deal with GDPR - shockingly, no other providers are SOC2 certified.
* We offer rich applications on the robot's screen, including visitor management, forms, etc.
* We can perform COVID-related features, such as elevated temperature screening using FLIR cameras, promoting social distancing, and enforcing PPE.
* We support international operations too.
Wouldn't a remote controlled drone over the internet fulfill those purposes? Would be relatively cheap to get working.
That’s exactly what I want. Just like “wouldn’t a doorbell with a video feed connected to your own computer fulfill those purposes?” for a ring doorbell. Yes!
But I want a product, not tinkering. The appeal of this isn’t just what it does but that it does it right after I unpack it. I want it to fly by itself using some wizardry that a person at a huge company cooked up. I just don’t want it to phone home to do it.
That’s what I want in the “standalone” one too. Mass market product appeal. No tinkering.
But I want a product, not tinkering. The appeal of this isn’t just what it does but that it does it right after I unpack it. I want it to fly by itself using some wizardry that a person at a huge company cooked up. I just don’t want it to phone home to do it.
That’s what I want in the “standalone” one too. Mass market product appeal. No tinkering.
I agree. That's seems like a useful product, and wouldn't be exceedingly difficult to make. I'm wondering why no one did it yet.
Wouldn't a remote controlled drone over the internet fulfill those purposes? Would be relatively cheap to get working.
I think the majority of people aren't very good at flying drones. Even outside, it can take a lot of practice.
People don't want to spend hours or days learning how to fly a drone in their homes. They want stuff to just work.
I think the majority of people aren't very good at flying drones. Even outside, it can take a lot of practice.
People don't want to spend hours or days learning how to fly a drone in their homes. They want stuff to just work.
> I think the majority of people aren't very good at flying drones. Even outside, it can take a lot of practice.
I crashed and broke my VTOL airplane twice last weekend. Sighs dramatically. Pilot error.
More seriously, there's a couple main issues: piloting, and recharging.
You'd want the drone to not crash into anything, and remote controlling the drone with Internet-induced lag would be especially challenging. There's a reason why FPV setups for race drones use analog video still.
Also, just as with making a household wheeled security robot, you can do that right now, but the automatic return to the charging base is not widely available as a commercial product.
I crashed and broke my VTOL airplane twice last weekend. Sighs dramatically. Pilot error.
More seriously, there's a couple main issues: piloting, and recharging.
You'd want the drone to not crash into anything, and remote controlling the drone with Internet-induced lag would be especially challenging. There's a reason why FPV setups for race drones use analog video still.
Also, just as with making a household wheeled security robot, you can do that right now, but the automatic return to the charging base is not widely available as a commercial product.
You would use a hybrid solution, where the drone is still aware of its surroundings and provides a simplified control interface.
and the ability to open and close doors...
Yes, I think this could actually be a good product, or at least something similar to it for anyone who suffers from OCD. I think a lot of smart devices can help people.
Maybe there is a better product though.
Maybe there is a better product though.
that's an interesting thought. Use it to fly around a lake house after a storm looking for damage.
Why do you have an apartment that you don't use?
I’d love a small robot that I could put inside the walls of my house that would crawl around and check for water leaks, bugs, etc.
I never predicted that we’d end up actually paying to build a corporate controlled surveillance dystopia, but here we are.
1984 sort of glosses over how the monitoring hardware ends up in everyone's homes, but I think it's safe to say that they participated in the installations in the beginning.
I think when 1984 was published (1949) it was generally assumed most people had a pretty good idea how to create a surveillance state.
It's all partly subsidized by the US government.
https://action.aclu.org/petition/amazon-stop-selling-surveil...
(Ex?) NSA is literally now on the Board https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24426500
https://action.aclu.org/petition/amazon-stop-selling-surveil...
(Ex?) NSA is literally now on the Board https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24426500
he's not on the board to push cameras. he's on the board to help amazon win defense contracts.
Brit here, once again failing to understand this complete obsession with filling your houses (and lives!) with cameras at all let alone with useless flying ones??
From this side of the pond it just looks absolutely insane, full of paranoia and fear. I know there's a country there full of gun totin' lunatics in many places, but I just don't get it.
This is less criticism, btw, and more social commentary. Explain for me how it got so insane?!
From this side of the pond it just looks absolutely insane, full of paranoia and fear. I know there's a country there full of gun totin' lunatics in many places, but I just don't get it.
This is less criticism, btw, and more social commentary. Explain for me how it got so insane?!
> Brit here, once again failing to understand this complete obsession with filling your houses (and lives!) with cameras at all let alone with useless flying ones??
Is that because you guys prefer your cameras outside? Brits love CCTV and the watchful eye of big brother
Is that because you guys prefer your cameras outside? Brits love CCTV and the watchful eye of big brother
Point taken but in defence I believe they're almost all state and not private, plus distribution is fairly much exclusive to cities. And yeh, outdoors.
I'm not sure it's typical to have cameras all over one's house. Maybe at the entrances or just one to watch for porch pirates, but I have no reason to believe they're common indoors. In fact, that seems to be a reason to have a drone like this. You get to add an indoor camera that's difficult to be used for spying since it has to visibly and audibly move off the dock (it could be moved while the person isn't home, but if they spot it, they'll know something is up)
Impression here is that all US homes have interior alarms and cameras - interesting if that isn't the case!
I'm also slightly unclear why. I mean, you look at your phone and see some guy wandering around your house - how does that actually help? If you're in the house you st your pants and hide under the bed or worse case grab your gun and go get shot. If you're out, you phone the police which is what a good intruder alarm would do anyway.
Seems really odd to me.
Oh, plus the thoughts in the article, namely "buy a couple of cheap cameras instead" if you really want this stuff in your life.
I'm also slightly unclear why. I mean, you look at your phone and see some guy wandering around your house - how does that actually help? If you're in the house you st your pants and hide under the bed or worse case grab your gun and go get shot. If you're out, you phone the police which is what a good intruder alarm would do anyway.
Seems really odd to me.
Oh, plus the thoughts in the article, namely "buy a couple of cheap cameras instead" if you really want this stuff in your life.
Only a first world rich person could believe that this trinket is in any way useful. Hit the toy with a stick, take all valuables you see, run like hell.
Congratulations, you have footage of the guy! Now what do you do? The police can't be bothered, and they shouldn't, why waste more tax dollars than your TV is worth recovering it?
Get a dog, add motion sensors if you feel like it. Vote for social programs and pay the taxes instead of buying data-mining toys.
Congratulations, you have footage of the guy! Now what do you do? The police can't be bothered, and they shouldn't, why waste more tax dollars than your TV is worth recovering it?
Get a dog, add motion sensors if you feel like it. Vote for social programs and pay the taxes instead of buying data-mining toys.
If such a tool existed while my parents were still alive and I was taking care of them, I would have bought it in a heartbeat. Eldercare givers are often housebound for years, because something as simple as going to the grocery store or the pharmacy becomes an ordeal, especially if the parent in question is suffering from Alzheimer's or the like.
Perhaps I was too categorical, it is an useless toy... In the context of home security, in others like eldercare or checking the state of unoccupied buildings it might be useful.
Even then I don't think it would in that case, my personal experience tells me that it could be distressing to someone who's disoriented, drones aren't exactly quiet. (Also it apparently it only moves in premade paths)
A GoPro-esque camera with streaming attached to clothing could be better at that.
Even then I don't think it would in that case, my personal experience tells me that it could be distressing to someone who's disoriented, drones aren't exactly quiet. (Also it apparently it only moves in premade paths)
A GoPro-esque camera with streaming attached to clothing could be better at that.
I 100% agree that noise could be a problem. Something worn tends to be removed/broken by confused hands. A pre-defined path is not ideal, for sure. But I expect a more controllable version will eventually follow.
I find this drone concept interesting. I can't wait for the footage of this product interacting with house cats.
I get that people have security concerns about the fact that it's internet connected (and is a ring/amazon product), but any $250 drone that can charge itself and perform indoor SLAM is pretty cool as a robotics platform! I wonder if they'll release an SDK for it.
The hacker news crowd was never going to like this product, but I think it’s genius. I’m pretty sure I’d never buy one myself, but this is a grade A gift for somebody who:
1. Never wants anything, so you never know what to get them. 2. Vaguely worries about security.
Which describes my parents and the parents of a lot other people I know.
It’s perfect because it scratches their itch for security, while also being futuristic and cool, unlike a regular camera system.
Many consumers have already invited big tech companies into their homes with Echo et al, and it’s clear that privacy is not a primary concern for many people.
1. Never wants anything, so you never know what to get them. 2. Vaguely worries about security.
Which describes my parents and the parents of a lot other people I know.
It’s perfect because it scratches their itch for security, while also being futuristic and cool, unlike a regular camera system.
Many consumers have already invited big tech companies into their homes with Echo et al, and it’s clear that privacy is not a primary concern for many people.
> It’s perfect because it scratches their itch for security
My gut instinct is that these kinds of products create an itch for security.
When we had our first baby, we considered a video monitor, but my wife is quite anxious -- and also very self-aware -- and knew that if she got one she'd be starting at the screen constantly making sure she could detect a moving chest.
Then people started getting the wearable baby monitors that automatical check breathing. You can imagine how much anxiety soared. "Is it reading correctly? What if the monitors have just stopped working? And why has it been 20 seconds since the last update?"
We got an audio monitor that only responded to loud noises. Our parents generation, of course, didn't even have that, and were even less anxious than us.
I think the more you get into these kinds of products, the more you starting thinking about it, and the more you start thinking about what you're not monitoring, and what you are missing in your system, and how you didn't check the feed yet today while on holiday...
My gut instinct is that these kinds of products create an itch for security.
When we had our first baby, we considered a video monitor, but my wife is quite anxious -- and also very self-aware -- and knew that if she got one she'd be starting at the screen constantly making sure she could detect a moving chest.
Then people started getting the wearable baby monitors that automatical check breathing. You can imagine how much anxiety soared. "Is it reading correctly? What if the monitors have just stopped working? And why has it been 20 seconds since the last update?"
We got an audio monitor that only responded to loud noises. Our parents generation, of course, didn't even have that, and were even less anxious than us.
I think the more you get into these kinds of products, the more you starting thinking about it, and the more you start thinking about what you're not monitoring, and what you are missing in your system, and how you didn't check the feed yet today while on holiday...
> Never want anything and you never know what to get them?
Just don’t get them anything. Maybe just some fancy wind sausage.
It’s not that hard. The compulsion to fill people’s lives with junk they neither need, nor in your case want, is beyond me.
Different point entirely, I know.
Just don’t get them anything. Maybe just some fancy wind sausage.
It’s not that hard. The compulsion to fill people’s lives with junk they neither need, nor in your case want, is beyond me.
Different point entirely, I know.
If you’d never buy one yourself (you don’t say why, so I’ll assume basic privacy reasons) why would you possibly buy one for other people? Presumably as part of the HN crowd you have some skills to be able to protect yourself, so why would you give one to people who have no such skills?
I could never understand why someone would want security cameras inside their home. What is it for? It always struck me as a weird American paranoid thing. And just for the record, yes I have been burgled before.
I don't understand how a human being could be gullible enough to put corporate surveillance devices inside their homes, let alone pay for them!
Where the heck are these people? Why I can't seem to find them in real life? I'd be a lot richer!
Seriously, if you're one of these people, you should send me 10 Bitcoins and I'll install a high definition surveillance camera and microphone in every room of your home and live stream everything online... I'll even sell your data to third parties so that they can decide the result of the election on your behalf automatically. You'll love it!
Where the heck are these people? Why I can't seem to find them in real life? I'd be a lot richer!
Seriously, if you're one of these people, you should send me 10 Bitcoins and I'll install a high definition surveillance camera and microphone in every room of your home and live stream everything online... I'll even sell your data to third parties so that they can decide the result of the election on your behalf automatically. You'll love it!
The 2018 sci-fi/horror movie Tau showed the endgame of in-home security drones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_(film)
If I were burglarizing a home and a small, expensive drone started following me around...I'd just take the drone with me. But who would bother stealing a security camera?
Does anybody know of something like this but for outdoor use?
If I had a relatively large (100 acre) or so property: is there a drone that I can buy that will be available whenever I want to check something out (without having to get up from my desk) then fly back to my roof to charge itself when its done?
The "figure out what proximity alarm was tripped" part would be extra sauce. The main thing I'm looking for is return to home and charge yourself until I need you again.
If I had a relatively large (100 acre) or so property: is there a drone that I can buy that will be available whenever I want to check something out (without having to get up from my desk) then fly back to my roof to charge itself when its done?
The "figure out what proximity alarm was tripped" part would be extra sauce. The main thing I'm looking for is return to home and charge yourself until I need you again.
The MTBF for a security camera has got to be ~100,000 hours or more. If this drone makes it 1000 hours, color me impressed. Presumably the next product will be a gattling gun you can deploy on errant babysitters, package thieves, and the ATF. Conveniently, the data appears to be streamed to me, myself, and anyone Jeff Bezos met at lunch.
The panopticon is coming, but I didn't expect to pay $250 for the privilege.
The panopticon is coming, but I didn't expect to pay $250 for the privilege.
"Be skeptical of a flying camera in your house whose software you don't control" should be pretty common sense advice, yet here we are, people happily wiretap their own homes with "smart speakers" and "smart security cameras" for the slightest of conveniences.
This thing is simultaneously the harbinger of techno-dystopia and something I can see being really useful in my vacation rental to check up on things between guests. This is part of why these ideas are so insidious.
>> But this potential privacy feature also comes with privacy risks, says Ryan Calo, associate professor at the University of Washington School of Law, in Seattle. “Fixed cameras can be avoided, whereas mobile ones can’t, which can make it impossible for a child, spouse, or roommate to get away from the camera,” he explains.
That is a contrived argument. The first time it launches without my permission, i would knock it out of the air and immediately return it or trash it.
It’s not like you would just continue to own it when you’re scared of it
That is a contrived argument. The first time it launches without my permission, i would knock it out of the air and immediately return it or trash it.
It’s not like you would just continue to own it when you’re scared of it
This is about abuse by a spouse. An abused spouse would be beaten for damaging the equipment the abuser monitors the abusee with.
That’s a different argument sure, but that’s not the argument here.
Please reread that paragraph, that was exactly the argument here.
It'll be totally normal to find the Amazon drone scanning my bookshelves, toy shelves, pantry shelves.
I wonder to what extent Amazon (or whoever) scans for other identifiable devices on the subnet.
I wonder to what extent Amazon (or whoever) scans for other identifiable devices on the subnet.
Get an alarm with some renters insurance. The security on these cameras are pretty trash. I think Ring got hacked , having strangers watch me all day is a scary thought.
This thing is amusing. The one advantage it has over in place cameras is that it can try to go get a better view of the perps’ face, especially if it had a camera pointing up for hoodie wearing perps. But it’s probably not agile enough to manoeuver like that.
Maybe the annoyance is enough to chase away burglars and such —they are actively reminded they’re being recorded and it’s not as easy to de-energize and disconnect as regular home sec cams.
Maybe the annoyance is enough to chase away burglars and such —they are actively reminded they’re being recorded and it’s not as easy to de-energize and disconnect as regular home sec cams.
What perps? The venn diagram of affluent homeowners who own a home surveillance drone with houses that happen to get broken into is infinitesimal. This is about data collection.
My bet is the more likely use-case will be using it to check on pets.
I'm inclined to agree, but I'm wondering if there's any data to support that.
At $250 more people will get them. People waste money on more useless garbage than this. Home invasions and breaking into garages has gone up significantly in SF —if they already have Ring, which many do if I go by NextDoor, I’m sure a few will pick this up.
The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover...he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.
Just put a gun on it and it will kick ass!
Isolated example: I have an IoT device, and based on my interactions with support and engineering, the company providing this product is extremely clueless as to my device’s state. Let alone building and monetizing sophisticated profiles of my personality.
Be Skeptical of Ring
Most of the comments here seem to think this is designed to track a perp in your house. My assumption is that it's for people who want to check if the gas was left on or spy on their pet.
I could see a case where you don't want a permanent camera in your bedroom, but having one that can fly into there when an alarm goes off is a good alternative.
I'll wait for the chinese copy for half the price and not connected to any cloud. I'm thankful to the chinese for enforcing free market economy
If they really wanted to build a device to get burglars to depart rapidly or regret their choices, they should have armed it with a glitter cannon...
If the rooms in your house have doors and those doors are closed as they should be to slow the spread of a fire, how will the drone work?
Why would you even want a security camera IN your house? Just get outdoor cameras and point them toward possible entry points.
The chances you will be away from home, a burglar is at your door, and you're actually notified quickly enough and you're available to fly your drone around the house and catch a glimpse of a bad guy ... are almost 0, and it may not make a difference anyhow.
This is a 'novel' toy, the kind of cool factor that transcends use case. 'Aspirational Utility' it's called. Dude's can spend $300 on it 'because it's useful' they will tell themselves.
This is a 'novel' toy, the kind of cool factor that transcends use case. 'Aspirational Utility' it's called. Dude's can spend $300 on it 'because it's useful' they will tell themselves.
tbh as much as I’d love to tell myself it isn’t - and I use my iOS (and now WatchOS) dev career to justify it - but the Apple Watch kind of fits neatly for me in this would-be category. It’s more cool and interesting than it is functional.
For the watch both the fitness and activity features and being able to get all my notifications on my wrist are great features. A few other things (like having my 2FA codes easily accessible and controlling music) are also nice
I'm right with you on the fitness bit, there. Having GPS for all of my runs is fantastic, and you don't have to carry around your whole phone. Music is also nice, especially if you have it on the local storage.
I would think it would be more for things like "Did I leave the stove on" then "Is someone breaking in".
That being said, I will never buy this because Ring is untrustworthy.
That being said, I will never buy this because Ring is untrustworthy.
I've seen a few people commenting about this stove issue. I can't believe anyone seriously thinks the answer to "some people forget to turn off their stove sometimes" is "indoor drone streaming data to mega corporations".
There are auto switch off devices for both gas and electric stoves by the way.
There are auto switch off devices for both gas and electric stoves by the way.
I agree -- I was just stating a more viable use case.
And like I said in my comment: Ring is untrustworthy. As such, there is no way I would ever purchase this from them.
I would also not purchase it from a different large corp.
And like I said in my comment: Ring is untrustworthy. As such, there is no way I would ever purchase this from them.
I would also not purchase it from a different large corp.
While I agree completely with the concept that alarms are almost worthless, I believe its automated when a sensor/camera alerts it flies to that area.
For the record, I would never allow this in my house. A dog is a much better deterrent than any alarm.
For the record, I would never allow this in my house. A dog is a much better deterrent than any alarm.
'Alarms' are probably useful. A loud 'alarm sound' would definitely have an effect on an intruder, they often alert some authority if left on, and cameras start recording.
I find them extremely common in the hyper-safe suburbs where every kid is in a safety bubble, probably the lowest crime areas going. They're sold for inflated prices.
Probably way over used, but there's legit utility there.
But what nerd can honestly not say they're not having to actively resist from buying a flying 'home monitor drone'. I mean, I'm 100% sure that I don't need one and I still want to buy it!
It's actually a smart move by Amazon, it's important to imbue their otherwise 'Warehouse of Crap' brand with aspirational things.
I foresee a million dudes 'checking to see if they locked the door' ... just because.
I find them extremely common in the hyper-safe suburbs where every kid is in a safety bubble, probably the lowest crime areas going. They're sold for inflated prices.
Probably way over used, but there's legit utility there.
But what nerd can honestly not say they're not having to actively resist from buying a flying 'home monitor drone'. I mean, I'm 100% sure that I don't need one and I still want to buy it!
It's actually a smart move by Amazon, it's important to imbue their otherwise 'Warehouse of Crap' brand with aspirational things.
I foresee a million dudes 'checking to see if they locked the door' ... just because.
>'Alarms' are probably useful. A loud 'alarm sound' would definitely have an effect on an intruder, they often alert some authority if left on, and cameras start recording.
>I find them extremely common in the hyper-safe suburbs where every kid is in a safety bubble, probably the lowest crime areas going. They're sold for inflated prices.
Alarms are definitely useful. Mostly because in many places, having an alarm system installed will lower your homeowner's insurance premium.
As long as the ROI is less than how long you intend to live in that residence, it makes lots of sense.
Beyond that? Not much value.
>I find them extremely common in the hyper-safe suburbs where every kid is in a safety bubble, probably the lowest crime areas going. They're sold for inflated prices.
Alarms are definitely useful. Mostly because in many places, having an alarm system installed will lower your homeowner's insurance premium.
As long as the ROI is less than how long you intend to live in that residence, it makes lots of sense.
Beyond that? Not much value.
I'd mostly be worried about Ring sharing video with 3rd parties, law enforcement, etc.
Also be skeptical (and avoid) about websites that won’t function unless JavaScript is enabled.
Fuck the security.
As long as it blows up dust and my air filter cleans it, I have a clean house.
And I won't die early from the PM2.5, I think. It's a contradiction. Need to practical run over months. Perhaps need to only have the drone going when not around. Or maybe it's like asbestos and you should leave dust alone.
As long as it blows up dust and my air filter cleans it, I have a clean house.
And I won't die early from the PM2.5, I think. It's a contradiction. Need to practical run over months. Perhaps need to only have the drone going when not around. Or maybe it's like asbestos and you should leave dust alone.
Does anyone have any idea of the SLAM architecture running onboard these systems?
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This is genus, all it needs is an airsoft gun and it would be perfect!
Doesn't need a gun, just an aerosol can of fluorescent dye.
Does the fact that this camera is non-fixed have some sort of obscure legal implications. Yeah, sounds silly. But as the article points out, the product itself feels silly.
So why is that? Often, under such circumstances, legal plays into it.
So why is that? Often, under such circumstances, legal plays into it.
How is this drone going to get through a closed door?
There's Amazon Key for that. :)
One problem: doors.
I don't know why it came to mind, but:
> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them ...
> One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them ...
People were saying similar things about newer Roomba vacuums that have the capability of mapping out your home and are internet-connected.
Roombas are internet-connected, but not internet-controlled. They can only be turned on or off via the internet.
Also, Roombas aren't all that great at mapping your home, unless you live in an empty shipping container with no furniture. I've seen the maps that my Roomba creates. They are useless for anything other than their intended purposes: Showing wifi signal strength.
Also, Roombas aren't all that great at mapping your home, unless you live in an empty shipping container with no furniture. I've seen the maps that my Roomba creates. They are useless for anything other than their intended purposes: Showing wifi signal strength.
My old dead-reckoning model eventually vacuums the whole floor if you let it run long enough.
It's not about getting to the whole house, it's that the maps are not useful because they exclude furniture and other obstacles. What you end up with is a map that is no more useful than seeing the building footprint from an online map.
This is a last gasp effort by the dash button crew. "How can we get more dash buttons pushed?" "Robots. And machine learning, of course."
I hear these drones charge with free electricity when they land on dash buttons.
I hear these drones charge with free electricity when they land on dash buttons.
I will pay good money for a drone that comes with a little computer with hard drives and the only thing it ever goes online to do is email me alerts.
But nobody wants to build that because the tech world has mostly stopped thinking about how to solve problems.
But nobody wants to build that because the tech world has mostly stopped thinking about how to solve problems.
There's no way my wife would allow all those wires everywhere. And the wireless security cameras are a pain because you have to remember to recharge them.
Now, before the wannabe This Old House crowd starts up with "You just put the wires in the walls," consider that 43% of Americans rent their homes, and the number is even higher in other countries. The vast majority of landlords won't allow you to run wires in the walls.
That said, there's NFW I would have one of these in my house because I don't trust any tech company to have a camera in my house.
It's marketed as a security device, but it's not like a toy quadcopter is going to stop an intruder any better than a non-flying camera. Which means "not at all."
If you want home security that can reach all parts of your home, and provide alerts when someone breaks in, get a dog.
No, the dog can't alert you when you're not home, but again, it's not like you can do anything about a break-in when you're not home either way.
Then again, iOS has the built-in ability to detect dogs barking and react to that. Perhaps in the not-too-distant future, your Homepod can detect the dog barking and hit you with a text message.