Ask HN: Notion is withholding my company data, what can I do?
205 comments
I'm not a Notion customer, but frankly with a response like this I would never, ever be one.
It's one thing to make a new feature request and have the response be "sorry, we'll get to it when we get to it." It's quite another to have a bug in an advertised, previously working feature, with no workaround, and say "sorry, our engineers have a big backlog."
Imagine if a bank said "sorry, we know the withdrawal feature to get your money is broken, but our engineers have a big backlog." Unbelievable!
It's one thing to make a new feature request and have the response be "sorry, we'll get to it when we get to it." It's quite another to have a bug in an advertised, previously working feature, with no workaround, and say "sorry, our engineers have a big backlog."
Imagine if a bank said "sorry, we know the withdrawal feature to get your money is broken, but our engineers have a big backlog." Unbelievable!
> Imagine if a bank said "sorry, we know the withdrawal feature to get your money is broken, but our engineers have a big backlog." Unbelievable!
The Mt. Gox story.
The Mt. Gox story.
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I recently closed a bank account (due to Simple being acquired and the debacle of BBVA and now PNC) and it was quite difficult. I just wanted a "you send me a check with my remaining balance and we're done," and instead they told me I needed to withdraw my cash to zero (with limits that would have taken months), and only then could I close my account.
Eventually, I was told a workaround where I could "Bill Pay" my own credit card for an unlimited amount and then close the account. But it's not like banks are strictly easy in comparison.
Eventually, I was told a workaround where I could "Bill Pay" my own credit card for an unlimited amount and then close the account. But it's not like banks are strictly easy in comparison.
But two points on this:
1. First off, the Simple/BBVA debacle did receive so much press because the switchover was so royally f'd. The very fact that this bad of a screwup was something so unexpected/unusual is a big reason it received so much press.
2. They did provide (eventually) a workaround. Given the current top comment it looks like Notion may have a workaround as well, but regardless, the answer from support for a bug like this should always be "we'll get you a fix ASAP, even if we need to manually work around it", not "sorry but our engineers have a big backlog".
1. First off, the Simple/BBVA debacle did receive so much press because the switchover was so royally f'd. The very fact that this bad of a screwup was something so unexpected/unusual is a big reason it received so much press.
2. They did provide (eventually) a workaround. Given the current top comment it looks like Notion may have a workaround as well, but regardless, the answer from support for a bug like this should always be "we'll get you a fix ASAP, even if we need to manually work around it", not "sorry but our engineers have a big backlog".
Which is incredibly sad because PNC is really a great bank compared to the usual suspects (BoA, JPMC, Wells, etc).
Heartily agree. Been using them for about 10 years and never had an issue.
> withdraw my cash to zero
> workaround where I could "Bill Pay" my own credit card
I'm confused on this. When you closed your Simple/BBVA account, did you not have any other checking account to transfer your funds into? Both of these suggestions will drain your account, but neither is the immediately obvious method of simply transferring your money to another checking or savings account.
I closed my account prior to the full BBVA transition, moving to Chime (heartily recommend in concert with YNAB for you folks that miss Simple's savings tools) and had no problem connecting my Chime account and transferring the funds via usual ACH transfer.
Simple was a real bank, backed by BBVA (and before that, Bancorp -- truly Simple's heyday in my opinion) and thus subject to typical banking rules. You could initiate ACH transfers with your Simple account like you could at your local credit union or bank.
> workaround where I could "Bill Pay" my own credit card
I'm confused on this. When you closed your Simple/BBVA account, did you not have any other checking account to transfer your funds into? Both of these suggestions will drain your account, but neither is the immediately obvious method of simply transferring your money to another checking or savings account.
I closed my account prior to the full BBVA transition, moving to Chime (heartily recommend in concert with YNAB for you folks that miss Simple's savings tools) and had no problem connecting my Chime account and transferring the funds via usual ACH transfer.
Simple was a real bank, backed by BBVA (and before that, Bancorp -- truly Simple's heyday in my opinion) and thus subject to typical banking rules. You could initiate ACH transfers with your Simple account like you could at your local credit union or bank.
> they told me I needed to withdraw my cash to zero (with limits that would have taken months)...
I think that some state or federal banking regulators might have expressed displeasure if you had informed them of that policy.
I think that some state or federal banking regulators might have expressed displeasure if you had informed them of that policy.
Something doesn't add up in the story here. It seems like they suggested every other way in the book to withdraw funds other than a regular ACH transfer.
It seems like the guy doesn't want to have a bank account anymore.
If he just is moving to a different bank, then all he has to do is make a ACH transfer.
Also, the Bank may have a reporting requirement for over 10k withdrawals in cash but they will let you take even more than that in cash if you want to. You may have to work it out with them to get enough money on site at the branch if you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, but they will let you withdraw in cash.
If he just is moving to a different bank, then all he has to do is make a ACH transfer.
Also, the Bank may have a reporting requirement for over 10k withdrawals in cash but they will let you take even more than that in cash if you want to. You may have to work it out with them to get enough money on site at the branch if you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, but they will let you withdraw in cash.
Yeah, if he doesn't want a bank account anymore yet has thousands of dollars in there ... not sure what he's expecting here, or why he's blaming Simple/BBVA specifically for a predicament of his own creation. He complains about "days" of limits for withdrawals, so we're left to believe this is at least mid four figures or higher in balance.
At the time, he may have had issue with walking into a "branch" of Simple. While BBVA was the parent bank for Simple, their branches had zero insight into Simple bank accounts. When the transition happened, BBVA branches were getting hit hard by Simple customers expecting sudden service. However as far as the BBVA branches were concerned officially those customers weren't theirs -- no BBVA account number, just Simple, which they never had insight to when it did exist.
At the time, he may have had issue with walking into a "branch" of Simple. While BBVA was the parent bank for Simple, their branches had zero insight into Simple bank accounts. When the transition happened, BBVA branches were getting hit hard by Simple customers expecting sudden service. However as far as the BBVA branches were concerned officially those customers weren't theirs -- no BBVA account number, just Simple, which they never had insight to when it did exist.
I had another account tied to it already so it was easy for me to transfer funds out to empty Simple. Sucks it was a hard experience for you!
> Imagine if a bank said "sorry, we know the withdrawal feature to get your money is broken, but our engineers have a big backlog." Unbelievable!
That happens a bit more than we would want to.
There was an (several?) incident with Mizuho bank in Japan. During system errors they'd swallow clients cards and wouldn't give them back until a the client asks for it in person at the counter (so, a few days later when it happens on the weekend)
That happens a bit more than we would want to.
There was an (several?) incident with Mizuho bank in Japan. During system errors they'd swallow clients cards and wouldn't give them back until a the client asks for it in person at the counter (so, a few days later when it happens on the weekend)
We were thinking to switch to using Notion for a sizable project, but this thread changed our mind. It is, indeed, frustrating.
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Digital Ocean does this for VM downloads - you cannot export your VM as an image.
So if you create a snowflake VM there is now way you can move it off Digital Ocean.
So if you create a snowflake VM there is now way you can move it off Digital Ocean.
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Up next: Someone will read this post, write an exporter, immediately find that Notion's system is handling authentication but not authorization, and dump tens of thousand private notion datasets.
grabs popcorn in anticipation
I'm waiting for someone to launch a Notion-a-like weekend project next Monday
It definitely took more than a weekend but we did launch a product in this space. And it has export.
http://miki.mimix.io
http://miki.mimix.io
already done https://www.getoutline.com/
Here's what Notion.so says about this on their website.
https://www.notion.so/Back-up-your-data-1a8eb5bdfce34d19a636...
- *I tried clicking the `Export all workspace content` button but received an error message.*
https://www.notion.so/Back-up-your-data-1a8eb5bdfce34d19a636...
- *I tried clicking the `Export all workspace content` button but received an error message.*
Oof, so sorry about this For particularly large workspaces, the `Export all workspace content` function may have some trouble completing the export. We're investigating this issue and hope to have a resolution soon.
As a temporary workaround for this issue, you can export in smaller batches:
1. Navigate to a top-level page in your workspace
2. Click the `•••` button at the top right of the page, then click `Export` (you may not see this option if you're not an admin in the workspace)
3. Choose `Markdown & CSV` or `HTML` as the export format, and turn on the `Include subpages` toggle
4. Repeat for any other important top-level pages in the workspace that you'd like to have a backup of
Please note that we keep per-minute backups on our servers, and can help with data recovery at any time at [email protected]. Thanks for your patience while we work on fixing this issue!God, if there’s one thing I hate it’s that condescending millennial speak to cover up a serious issue.
> Oof, so sorry about this...
What??? If your company is broken don’t make it seem like a funny “aw shucks” blunder.
> Oof, so sorry about this...
What??? If your company is broken don’t make it seem like a funny “aw shucks” blunder.
Interesting, I've written stuff very much like that before for customers that were hitting bugs. I wasn't trying to be "aw shucks" funny. I legitimately feel sorry that my shitty software was breaking on them. That they provided a workaround seemed like a nice thing to me. In fact that whole message seemed pretty good to me. It's probably not entirely that employee's fault but they're still trying to empathize and help.
I wonder how many people have felt the same way about me.
I wonder how many people have felt the same way about me.
I used to do this too but stopped after getting negative feedback. It can come across as insincere or unserious at a time when the user is already not happy with you.
It is unprofessional. Plain and simple.
P.s. the person who first brought it to my attention was a UX designer. Good UX people add so much value. This kind of stuff can be really hard to see on your own.
Thank you! Written communication with complete strangers is incredibly hard, so it's always good to know how you're being perceived.
For what its worth, I second the parent's sentiment. It comes off as really patronizing to me to make responses like this to serious issues.
At a minimum, if you take a friendly personal tone in important communications, but there isn't a real person waiting behind it in an easily accessible manner at customer support with the same tone, I get extremely annoyed. There is something infuriating about the cheapness of projecting friendliness in a UI but then directing me to some robot phone line or an auto generated email where it really matters.
At a minimum, if you take a friendly personal tone in important communications, but there isn't a real person waiting behind it in an easily accessible manner at customer support with the same tone, I get extremely annoyed. There is something infuriating about the cheapness of projecting friendliness in a UI but then directing me to some robot phone line or an auto generated email where it really matters.
Oh interesting, I assumed this was a response to a support case or something, not the text on their website. In that case I agree with you.
In my case I was a real person writing and waiting behind it. I was emailing a response directly to a support case I was handling.
Does that change anything in your opinion or would you still feel the same way? (Please don't spare my feelings. I'm really asking as I need to know the hard truth in order to improve)
In my case I was a real person writing and waiting behind it. I was emailing a response directly to a support case I was handling.
Does that change anything in your opinion or would you still feel the same way? (Please don't spare my feelings. I'm really asking as I need to know the hard truth in order to improve)
For me that’s a much more acceptable setting to have a more “human” interaction (provided that is actually how you normally interact).
it's disrespectful to respond like that, to me. infantilizing; like I'm incapable of processing a response that is genuine.
"uwu we'we sowwy dis isn't wewking anymowe.. pwease don't be angwy wiff us"
"uwu we'we sowwy dis isn't wewking anymowe.. pwease don't be angwy wiff us"
How the hell is "Oof, we're so sorry about this." remotely similar to "uwu we'we sowwy dis isn't wewking anymowe.. pwease don't be angwy wiff us"
I get it, some forms of communication aren't your bag. But I think it's at least reasonable to focus on a company's intent even if the verbiage isn't what you'd prefer. FWIW I'm quite older than a millennial, but I didn't find anything infantilizing about Notion's response - I'd much prefer a genuine expression of regret, which is what this FAQ appeared to be, than some nonsense corporate-speak.
I get it, some forms of communication aren't your bag. But I think it's at least reasonable to focus on a company's intent even if the verbiage isn't what you'd prefer. FWIW I'm quite older than a millennial, but I didn't find anything infantilizing about Notion's response - I'd much prefer a genuine expression of regret, which is what this FAQ appeared to be, than some nonsense corporate-speak.
The word "oof" affects a casual, breezy tone that is inappropriate in a professional response to a customer concern.
it's insulting because it is attempting to minimize the customer's stake in the problem by appearing to be concerned and empathetic.
if they were concerned or empathetic, the issue would not have lasted as long as it has.
in short, it's disingenuous and it's an attempt to minimize the customer's concerns.
if they were concerned or empathetic, the issue would not have lasted as long as it has.
in short, it's disingenuous and it's an attempt to minimize the customer's concerns.
Do you have special crystal ball that lets you peer into another company’s dev processes? If not, who are you to claim people have no empathy? That’s not only a really dark view of humans but it ignores the possibility that they cannot fix it right now.
God people, have a touch of respect for our colleagues.
God people, have a touch of respect for our colleagues.
Probably Notion should not have put them into this situation in the first place? Maybe they should have been more clear on the issue they’re having so nobody has to make a guess? Shortly explain the details of the issue they’re having and give some timelines? Like mature companies do? It would be good enough for me if I were their customer but oof, who am I to suggest.
I have respect for my colleagues at other companies.
They lose it when they talk down to me. "oof, sorry about that, but this is not important enough for us to fix right now" is not how you keep my respect, when the functionality has been broken for months.
They lose it when they talk down to me. "oof, sorry about that, but this is not important enough for us to fix right now" is not how you keep my respect, when the functionality has been broken for months.
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In my experience, it's mostly the Millienial developer who writes error messages like these and the Gen X that takes offence (probably because this reminds them of their condescending Boomer parents ;))
Interesting. To me, its a strong signal that the person on the other end is not an offshored, overworked drone but someone who is treated well by the company and cares enough to express empathy.
Don't try to be funny in your docs. If you want to convey information, make it clean, precise, and to the point. Do not assume and do not distract.
Please.
P.S. Jokes are not totally forbidden, but they should be more subtle and not so intrusive as "You are asking me a question, but here I'll give you a performance instead of an answer".
Please.
P.S. Jokes are not totally forbidden, but they should be more subtle and not so intrusive as "You are asking me a question, but here I'll give you a performance instead of an answer".
Yes, the word ‘oof’ denotes a performance. The etymology dates back to early vaudeville days when Barker Malarkey used it to start the Famous Malarkey Family’s drag show…
Except that’s not true. That whole paragraph is a load of malarkey.
It’s a word. You don’t know the person involved and you’re making more awful assumptions based upon three letters.
Except that’s not true. That whole paragraph is a load of malarkey.
It’s a word. You don’t know the person involved and you’re making more awful assumptions based upon three letters.
Now, reverse it backward. Not only I don't know them, but neither they know me. Can you see the issue now?
There is such a thing as technical writing style and it is about the relevance of information pieces and the relations between them.
There is such a thing as technical writing style and it is about the relevance of information pieces and the relations between them.
it's not empathetic, it's an attempt to disarm and minimize, and it's insulting.
There is no person on the other end. There is a program, so definitely a drone, maybe wrote by offshored developers maybe not, definitely overworked or they'll have the time to fix the bug or implement the feature instead of replacing it with a message.
A person doing the export manually would be OK as a workaround and instead all they have is that message. That's not OK.
A person doing the export manually would be OK as a workaround and instead all they have is that message. That's not OK.
Consider the platform demographic before responding this way. It can be an advantage and a disadvantage.
When your product is broken informality and conversational prose comes across as sloppy and unprofessional. It sends a bad message and it’s counter productive in this context.
I generally dislike this tone too.
If they really felt sorry for this particular customer, they would be actually solving their issues, not answering with automatic messages.
If they really felt sorry for this particular customer, they would be actually solving their issues, not answering with automatic messages.
I’m obviously in the minority here but I appreciate that kind of tone. Yeah, it sucks that I’ve found a bug but the vast majority of the time, the devs involved hate the bug more than I do.
I think the best way to handle support is to be yourself.
I think the best way to handle support is to be yourself.
Unless you have a personal relationship with the person on the other end (like a customer you have been helping for years and are on a first name basis with), the best way to handle support is to be overly professional.
Casual is almost always a recipe for disaster if the person on the other end doesn't know you. It makes it sound like you aren't taking their issue seriously.
Casual is almost always a recipe for disaster if the person on the other end doesn't know you. It makes it sound like you aren't taking their issue seriously.
How does a support rep being friendly and casual lead to a disaster? Or are the disasters you are referring to purely caused by the customer acting entitled and screaming because they got offended that someone was trying to be nice to them?
It's more than likely some dude that is just starting their career that has almost no training that is trying to the best of their ability to express empathy, provide a workaround, and make the customer happy. He doesn't control what gets fixed. Why do business interactions need to be devoid of social niceties? It's some software company, not a morgue.
It's more than likely some dude that is just starting their career that has almost no training that is trying to the best of their ability to express empathy, provide a workaround, and make the customer happy. He doesn't control what gets fixed. Why do business interactions need to be devoid of social niceties? It's some software company, not a morgue.
I guess I completely disagree with your sentiment that somehow being casual means you're being friendly. Those are two completely unrelated actions.
You can be casual and a jerk. You can be friendly and professional. Someone telling me "oof" when my business is offline and losing money (or insert major issue you've caused me) isn't a social nicety, it's something I would expect a buddy to say if I told him I lost money playing poker.
You can be casual and a jerk. You can be friendly and professional. Someone telling me "oof" when my business is offline and losing money (or insert major issue you've caused me) isn't a social nicety, it's something I would expect a buddy to say if I told him I lost money playing poker.
Right. There's definitely a time and place to be casual. As a support person, you're your customer's 911 dispatcher.
Please don't make light of their issues. People want to be treated seriously when they're having a problem.
You can't tell people they're entitled for disliking how you're treating them in a serious situation, and call it empathy in the next breath.
Please don't make light of their issues. People want to be treated seriously when they're having a problem.
You can't tell people they're entitled for disliking how you're treating them in a serious situation, and call it empathy in the next breath.
Right, but again, it's not 911, it's a software company. The user's company is not gonna go bankrupt, they can still use the application.
It is a front line support rep, it is the same as some guy at McDonald's. Yes, I think people are entitled when they feel they have a right to be mean or difficult to some person who is just trying to do their job and is making a plausible attempt to be nice to you. You can't read that workers mind, they said one word that can be plausibly used in either circumstance. That word expresses anguish that their customer is having trouble. That is empathy if it was used sincerely. It is not the south park episode with the cable company workers.
It is a front line support rep, it is the same as some guy at McDonald's. Yes, I think people are entitled when they feel they have a right to be mean or difficult to some person who is just trying to do their job and is making a plausible attempt to be nice to you. You can't read that workers mind, they said one word that can be plausibly used in either circumstance. That word expresses anguish that their customer is having trouble. That is empathy if it was used sincerely. It is not the south park episode with the cable company workers.
This thread has really messed with my feelings on the tech industry. When did we all become unfeeling automatons? Did I miss that memo??
There’s nothing wrong with expressing anguish. And I happily fire customers who have a problem with that. Life is too short to deal with that level of entitlement.
There’s nothing wrong with expressing anguish. And I happily fire customers who have a problem with that. Life is too short to deal with that level of entitlement.
I've learned that good intentions are filtered differently when the other party is already angry.
If my customer is having a problem, I can try being friendly after the communication is already ongoing, problem has been aknowledged, and it is on his way to be fixed. Ending in a friendly tone is a big plus. Starting with it, not at all.
On the other hand, as a customer, having to deal with you at all is already stressful enough, i'm paying you and still losing time over your screw-ups, and still you start with an "ooof". It would give me a feeling of "not only i'm losing time, i'm also being joked on".
Being professional and gradually friendly is simply the most secure way to operate, because every person that contacts you for a problem, big or small, doesn't want to contact you to begin with. Don't "ooof" me please.
If my customer is having a problem, I can try being friendly after the communication is already ongoing, problem has been aknowledged, and it is on his way to be fixed. Ending in a friendly tone is a big plus. Starting with it, not at all.
On the other hand, as a customer, having to deal with you at all is already stressful enough, i'm paying you and still losing time over your screw-ups, and still you start with an "ooof". It would give me a feeling of "not only i'm losing time, i'm also being joked on".
Being professional and gradually friendly is simply the most secure way to operate, because every person that contacts you for a problem, big or small, doesn't want to contact you to begin with. Don't "ooof" me please.
It seems like the disconnect here is that the angry people are viewing this one person's response as representative of the entire company and as though it was filtered through a PR rep, while the more understanding people are viewing this person a person speaking for themselves, not necessarily the whole company.
The person could have just copy pasted the canned response with no help and it sounds like a lot of people would have been happier with that. At a minimum, they wouldn't be hating on the customer support rep personally.
The person could have just copy pasted the canned response with no help and it sounds like a lot of people would have been happier with that. At a minimum, they wouldn't be hating on the customer support rep personally.
Yea, that sounds about right. I think I recall being a support rep for trading software in college and I've interacted with those front line workers for a long time now so I have a lot of empathy for them.
They are just people trying to do their job and I don't recall a single support rep that wasn't just trying to do their job well. People are complicated and socializing is hard, especially when it's not in person. What we do is almost always not life and death. We shuffle bits around between computers, we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously. There is no reason people can't be nice to each other in these interactions.
They are just people trying to do their job and I don't recall a single support rep that wasn't just trying to do their job well. People are complicated and socializing is hard, especially when it's not in person. What we do is almost always not life and death. We shuffle bits around between computers, we shouldn't take ourselves so seriously. There is no reason people can't be nice to each other in these interactions.
Yes and no.
People realize the guy there is not the whole company, but they also realize they are the only way to get communication going, and losing time only to be greeted with an "ooof" can be annoying.
Of course it also depends on the specific case (how big the problem, how angry the customer, how long the "ooof"), but I've been on both sides for a couple of years now and starting in an over-frienly manner sets the mood for an "un-important" context.
And, in particularly bad cases, that could sour the entire conversation.
People realize the guy there is not the whole company, but they also realize they are the only way to get communication going, and losing time only to be greeted with an "ooof" can be annoying.
Of course it also depends on the specific case (how big the problem, how angry the customer, how long the "ooof"), but I've been on both sides for a couple of years now and starting in an over-frienly manner sets the mood for an "un-important" context.
And, in particularly bad cases, that could sour the entire conversation.
Why are you twisting my words to this extent? My advice was simply ‘be yourself’ and you’ve bastardized that into making light of their issues. I don’t make light of people’s issues - that’s crap. But I’m going to be kind because that’s who I am.
I disagree. People can be themselves and still be professional. If your experience doesn’t match this, maybe you’re just bad at hiring people.
It's too lighthearted when you're dealing with a pissed customer and is only going to escalate the situation. If you truly want to show empathy and provide good service, I really hope you rethink the approach you take moving forward. In this case "oof" reads like "sux to be u, bye!" and you have several other people confirming that here. Now you can't say you don't know.
Yes I have re-thought my approach. I'm not sure how I'll handle it quite yet though. I'm now terrified of trying to be nice and personal to customers, and will likely just copy/paste traditional BS unless I know them.
I thought things had being going well, as I've gotten lots of messages from people that appreciate it, and never ones expressing unhappiness about it. However it's not worth it to roll the dice and be myself if people might actually be offended and mad about it. I got this response from someone (who had previously identified as a 75 year old man who struggles with technology) not that long ago:
> Thanks for acknowledging the issue and for not being a robot. The personal touch was nice, and your comment about blood pressure brought a smile to my face in a time of deep frustration. In the mean time I'll try the work around from your PDF, but hopefully this is fixed by time renewal comes around.
I thought things had being going well, as I've gotten lots of messages from people that appreciate it, and never ones expressing unhappiness about it. However it's not worth it to roll the dice and be myself if people might actually be offended and mad about it. I got this response from someone (who had previously identified as a 75 year old man who struggles with technology) not that long ago:
> Thanks for acknowledging the issue and for not being a robot. The personal touch was nice, and your comment about blood pressure brought a smile to my face in a time of deep frustration. In the mean time I'll try the work around from your PDF, but hopefully this is fixed by time renewal comes around.
As a millennial myself I appreciate this type of lingo. I think it’s a generational or cultural shift if some sort
I’m in my mid-forties. The tech industry wasn’t at all like this when I was young. Somewhere along the lines, people stopped being nice and having a personality apparently became a personality flaw.
I’m taking a break from this fucking site. I can’t believe the extent to which my colleagues are roasting someone over three letters. Bunch of fucking bullies if you ask me.
I’m taking a break from this fucking site. I can’t believe the extent to which my colleagues are roasting someone over three letters. Bunch of fucking bullies if you ask me.
I could be mistaken, but it feels like your colleagues are not roasting someone but are taking offence at the tone of a message that whilst obviously written by someone, isn't actually from someone but is (or appears to be) an automated response.
Personally, if it was a human at the other end of a chat who started off with "Oof" I'd be fine with that as we're having dialogue, but when used as a generic automated message it would feel a little unprofessional. Not enough to complain about, but it would be noticed.
Nothing to do with bullies, personalities, or roasting someone. Quite the opposite in fact in that it is totally fine from humans - just not ideal from an automated system.
Personally, if it was a human at the other end of a chat who started off with "Oof" I'd be fine with that as we're having dialogue, but when used as a generic automated message it would feel a little unprofessional. Not enough to complain about, but it would be noticed.
Nothing to do with bullies, personalities, or roasting someone. Quite the opposite in fact in that it is totally fine from humans - just not ideal from an automated system.
This is also more or less how I talk to other engineers when they find bugs I’ve written :)
Yeah I'm a millenial and I can't stand it either. Doggo, pupper, adulting, ninja/rockstar/awesome, oof, yikes, "my dude"... and don't even get me started about dressing like you're still in high school (pro-tip - unless you're are in great shape no one wants to see you in a tight fitting t-shirt).
Big reason why I'm now a "programmer in the X industry" as opposed to an "X programmer". I guess I just wasn't a "cultural fit" - yikes.
Big reason why I'm now a "programmer in the X industry" as opposed to an "X programmer". I guess I just wasn't a "cultural fit" - yikes.
> pro-tip - unless you're are in great shape no one wants to see you in a tight fitting t-shirt
There's a decent chance that these people don't seek your approval. Also, how has "pro-tip" not made your list?
There's a decent chance that these people don't seek your approval. Also, how has "pro-tip" not made your list?
Personal appearance and hygiene isn't something insecure people do to seek approval.
I mean, the sentence itself doesn't seem all that bad IMHO, it's the context that makes the difference. If I'm in a real time conversation actively trying to fix the issue, saying "oof, so sorry about this" seems like a perfectly genuine way of expressing the mutual feeling of frustration.
Writing this same sentence with an emoji beside it on a customer support documentation page, however, looks quite unprofessional. In these types of contexts, the general writing etiquette is that one is expected to write using a less casual tone.
Writing this same sentence with an emoji beside it on a customer support documentation page, however, looks quite unprofessional. In these types of contexts, the general writing etiquette is that one is expected to write using a less casual tone.
Reminds me of this tweet recently posted here :)
https://twitter.com/cherrikissu/status/972524442600558594
https://twitter.com/cherrikissu/status/972524442600558594
I take it you haven't worked in support before. It's just a support rep trying to defuse some tension, there is basically nothing they can do except escalate and provide work arounds. Management should be the ones that you get angry at. Getting angry at the front line reps does nothing except to make some poor guy or girl more stressed.
This reminds me of Discord
Discord, at least, has a vastly different audience than a B2B enterprise product. A different tone is more acceptable for something like that, IMO.
Yeah I love Discord's update messages. But I mostly use it for managing Overwatch play session, chatting while gaming, and sharing dumb or mildly interesting YouTube videos.(Edited for spelling)
I'm glad they got rid of most of them - the description text on startup settings such as "Start minimized" or "Start on bootup" were sentences such as "Have Discord greet you like a good boy", "Have Discord stay in the tray like a good boy"
While it's not trying to downplay anything like OP, it was certainly strange and creepy seeing software adopt Reddit English.
While it's not trying to downplay anything like OP, it was certainly strange and creepy seeing software adopt Reddit English.
They used ‘oof’, apologized and explained a workaround. This is a rather extreme amount of anger over one word.
> condescending millennial speak
Excuse me? "millennial speak?"
Excuse me? "millennial speak?"
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T-10 before founder shows up here and says something like, “I’m sorry that you feel this way, I’m going to personally fix this”. That will not go well. After about, say 5/6 hours of “reflection”, “soul searching”, “meditation” - they’ll offer a better non apology. Finally a day later, “we screwed up, we broke your trust and we own it”.
I got the impression from your comment that you disapprove of the above scenario, when to me it seems ideal. If I interpreted that right, could you help me understand why the above is bad?
You shouldn’t have to publicly shame a company on hacker news to make them be baseline level good to their customers.
But many tech companies are like that once they scale up.
But many tech companies are like that once they scale up.
Ah the good old Basecamp non-apology apology
> Please let me know if there’s anything else I can help with in the meantime.
This is the part where you ask for them to generate the export on their end and send you a link manually.
It’s “normal” for a feature to stop working, but their support must be able to provide a workaround even if it takes them hours of manually zipping things. If they don’t, you should at the very least receive a refund.
This is the part where you ask for them to generate the export on their end and send you a link manually.
It’s “normal” for a feature to stop working, but their support must be able to provide a workaround even if it takes them hours of manually zipping things. If they don’t, you should at the very least receive a refund.
Exactly, I tried that over and over and was ignored.
> I'm again explaining the same thing - If the feature isn't working, this is a critical function that they should at least try to generate manually as per my request.
> I'm again explaining the same thing - If the feature isn't working, this is a critical function that they should at least try to generate manually as per my request.
This is truly awful, and honestly shouldn't surprise anyone given the modern cloud approach to software.
I've been thinking a lot lately about ownership. If I have a book, I can interact with it the way the publisher expects (I can read it). But being a physical object, I can also do lots of other things with my book. I can burn it. I can give it to a friend. I can sell it. I can draw in it. I can rip it up and use it as wallpaper. I can get the author to sign the front cover and donate it.
Software used to work this way too. If I have a Word document, I can interact with it the way Word expects - open it, edit it, save it and so on. And I can also do things microsoft doesn't expect. I can put it on my website. I can email it. I can back it up. I can delete it. I can reverse engineer the file format and edit it using other programs. I can archive it for 30 years, and know it will still work when I open it using the version of microsoft Word which created it. And so on.
But the new software model with smartphone apps and data in the cloud takes all this away. You can only do with your data what the publisher expects. If Notion doesn't have a working export API, tough luck. If GMail is missing an API for searching by regular expression, tough luck. If Adobe shuts down their activation servers, or a startup fails, or Google kills a product, tough luck. You've lost all your data. There is no backdoor. There are no other ways, by default, for you to have any agency over your own data that a product manager hasn't approved of. Amazon can delete books that they've already sold you. And they have. You can't sell a game you bought on steam. Or get it signed by the author. Or reverse engineer the raw database entries which store a google doc.
And this sucks. Its disempowering. I love the security on my phone, and the operational simplicity of not needing to manage my own backups. But this? I hate this. I hate that there's a good chance Notion will aquihired by a big tech company and shut down. I'm not ok with my own creations being at the whim of market forces like this.
I reject the idea that word and google docs are the only options. Git + Github is the model I want, where the cloud is a convenience but everything is stored locally as well. We need to start fighting for that.
I've been thinking a lot lately about ownership. If I have a book, I can interact with it the way the publisher expects (I can read it). But being a physical object, I can also do lots of other things with my book. I can burn it. I can give it to a friend. I can sell it. I can draw in it. I can rip it up and use it as wallpaper. I can get the author to sign the front cover and donate it.
Software used to work this way too. If I have a Word document, I can interact with it the way Word expects - open it, edit it, save it and so on. And I can also do things microsoft doesn't expect. I can put it on my website. I can email it. I can back it up. I can delete it. I can reverse engineer the file format and edit it using other programs. I can archive it for 30 years, and know it will still work when I open it using the version of microsoft Word which created it. And so on.
But the new software model with smartphone apps and data in the cloud takes all this away. You can only do with your data what the publisher expects. If Notion doesn't have a working export API, tough luck. If GMail is missing an API for searching by regular expression, tough luck. If Adobe shuts down their activation servers, or a startup fails, or Google kills a product, tough luck. You've lost all your data. There is no backdoor. There are no other ways, by default, for you to have any agency over your own data that a product manager hasn't approved of. Amazon can delete books that they've already sold you. And they have. You can't sell a game you bought on steam. Or get it signed by the author. Or reverse engineer the raw database entries which store a google doc.
And this sucks. Its disempowering. I love the security on my phone, and the operational simplicity of not needing to manage my own backups. But this? I hate this. I hate that there's a good chance Notion will aquihired by a big tech company and shut down. I'm not ok with my own creations being at the whim of market forces like this.
I reject the idea that word and google docs are the only options. Git + Github is the model I want, where the cloud is a convenience but everything is stored locally as well. We need to start fighting for that.
One of the big problems is that software doesn't sell (or at least is really hard to sell). Piracy and that pesky "pay once unless you want to upgrade" problem companies aren't fond of. Services are easy to sell and code on your server is hard to pirate.
Still, there are gems out there, like Obsidian. Your files, put them where you want, how you want. Use the tool however you want, extend it if you want. Every other day someone comes up with some crazy plugin idea I didn't think I needed but now I do. If the company behind it goes poof, it will keep working.
Still, there are gems out there, like Obsidian. Your files, put them where you want, how you want. Use the tool however you want, extend it if you want. Every other day someone comes up with some crazy plugin idea I didn't think I needed but now I do. If the company behind it goes poof, it will keep working.
Going along with the software doesn't sell problem, supporting software on customers laptops is a nightmare.
No two environments are identical, you don't know what weird things they've done, this causes all sorts of new bugs.
We don't know how to write bug free software for a reasonable price, and it's a lot easier to debug and update software on a server you control than on a customers computer.
On a server no one complains about auto upgrades, on a customer computer there's going to be a lot of people who don't upgrade but still want support, even if you try and force auto upgrades (which will annoy people) someone will have figured out a way to prevent that from happening.
---
I think for a lot of companies SAAS is unfortunately the responsible financial decision.
No two environments are identical, you don't know what weird things they've done, this causes all sorts of new bugs.
We don't know how to write bug free software for a reasonable price, and it's a lot easier to debug and update software on a server you control than on a customers computer.
On a server no one complains about auto upgrades, on a customer computer there's going to be a lot of people who don't upgrade but still want support, even if you try and force auto upgrades (which will annoy people) someone will have figured out a way to prevent that from happening.
---
I think for a lot of companies SAAS is unfortunately the responsible financial decision.
Indeed you have a great point here, as I can simplify, you do not own your data, you buy allocation of certain service, like you said about Amazon ebooks.
Indeed I'm a guy who balances more between freedom instead of making it rigidly by laws, however the "Tech World" really needs "foundational directives" where all companies should abide.
Like John Locke defines, as I remember, that you have a "natural right" to Life.
Why not make an analogy here...
Right to Life - Your data is yours.
Right to Liberty - Your data goes where you want.
Right to Property - help me here lol
Idk we really should start to think more about privacy to all people, and where the top ones do with them.
Indeed I'm a guy who balances more between freedom instead of making it rigidly by laws, however the "Tech World" really needs "foundational directives" where all companies should abide.
Like John Locke defines, as I remember, that you have a "natural right" to Life.
Why not make an analogy here...
Right to Life - Your data is yours.
Right to Liberty - Your data goes where you want.
Right to Property - help me here lol
Idk we really should start to think more about privacy to all people, and where the top ones do with them.
And, right to cancel AUTO-UPDATING!!!
> Git + Github
You mean, you “own” copies of your data, but unless the person who controls the interface with that popular happy workflow that Everyone Already Knows How To Use lets you store it on their server, a lot of people who might otherwise be willing to collaborate with you will go “eh” and give up, and therefore, since so many marginal things require that to get anywhere, you can still just lose completely if you don't agree to the GitHub Terms of Service?
I imagine you didn't mean that part primarily, of course—but it's another thing to be aware of. There's a lot of potential for SaaSS interface lock-in—I think this is much worse for users with less technical inclination or less mental slack, but even in the realm of “people who are already developers who use Git”, this becomes a large friction source. And with more-social smaller-world flows, the coordination-control aspect has a stronger grip.
That said, it's also worth looking at how the “cloud” model is in a way reifying the folk model many users were already using. People thinking of their documents as being “in” (for instance) Word, and having no idea where they are in a filesystem or what that is in the first place, is already seared into the cultural memory of people who were family tech support in the 1990s. The default consumer cloud model is an easy extension and solidification of this: now it totally is “in” Google Docs rather than being a leakier folk-model weakening of accessing your your hard drive, and now Google Docs is accessible from anywhere. Everything is like you expect! No need to panic when your machine breaks, just get a new one and it's all still there!
And those upsides are real in their own way. But a number of downsides which are also real are less obvious and immediate.
You mean, you “own” copies of your data, but unless the person who controls the interface with that popular happy workflow that Everyone Already Knows How To Use lets you store it on their server, a lot of people who might otherwise be willing to collaborate with you will go “eh” and give up, and therefore, since so many marginal things require that to get anywhere, you can still just lose completely if you don't agree to the GitHub Terms of Service?
I imagine you didn't mean that part primarily, of course—but it's another thing to be aware of. There's a lot of potential for SaaSS interface lock-in—I think this is much worse for users with less technical inclination or less mental slack, but even in the realm of “people who are already developers who use Git”, this becomes a large friction source. And with more-social smaller-world flows, the coordination-control aspect has a stronger grip.
That said, it's also worth looking at how the “cloud” model is in a way reifying the folk model many users were already using. People thinking of their documents as being “in” (for instance) Word, and having no idea where they are in a filesystem or what that is in the first place, is already seared into the cultural memory of people who were family tech support in the 1990s. The default consumer cloud model is an easy extension and solidification of this: now it totally is “in” Google Docs rather than being a leakier folk-model weakening of accessing your your hard drive, and now Google Docs is accessible from anywhere. Everything is like you expect! No need to panic when your machine breaks, just get a new one and it's all still there!
And those upsides are real in their own way. But a number of downsides which are also real are less obvious and immediate.
That's why I become a software engineer. I would like to host the services and use cloud as backup.
Right now, the only thing bothers me is the email service. For a selfhosted email service, there might be some problems.
For example, I would like to sign up FB by my custom domain email address, but after roughly two days they treat me as bot and ask for cellphone which I don't want to give them. Because there is no way to delete the cellphone later. The function on their setting is not working. Even if you deleted the cellphone on setting page, you could still get targeted AD by hashed cellphone information. It seems like they use hashed information as the way to against user deleting.
Right now, the only thing bothers me is the email service. For a selfhosted email service, there might be some problems.
For example, I would like to sign up FB by my custom domain email address, but after roughly two days they treat me as bot and ask for cellphone which I don't want to give them. Because there is no way to delete the cellphone later. The function on their setting is not working. Even if you deleted the cellphone on setting page, you could still get targeted AD by hashed cellphone information. It seems like they use hashed information as the way to against user deleting.
In the case of GitHub and any other similar service the lockin is the number of services they added to the plain repository. Pull requests, issues, wiki, API for third party services, etc. You get back some of them if you self host with GitLab but every service supports GitHub, maybe not GitLab.
In this case, I don't even know what they get when they export from Notion but how are they going to collaborate on those data?
In this case, I don't even know what they get when they export from Notion but how are they going to collaborate on those data?
Yeah, I wish PRs, issues, wiki and all that was also stored in the git repository. I understand there's no incentive for github to do so, but it would make interoperability so much easier.
> how are they going to collaborate on those data?
CRDTs make collaboration possible and work well, without needing a central source of truth. For example, Yjs.
> how are they going to collaborate on those data?
CRDTs make collaboration possible and work well, without needing a central source of truth. For example, Yjs.
The wiki is a git repository of markdown files (maybe some other format too.) I edit locally, commit and push to GitHub. The name of the repository is user/project.wiki
The file for the sidebar is _Sidebar.md
No idea if other services can import those files into their wikis.
No idea if other services can import those files into their wikis.
We can't even export Google Docs in its native format. If one day Google shutdown Google Docs, you probably loses your documents forever.
A threat of legal action will probably go a long way. I might be wrong, but I think it is actually illegal to withhold people's data upon request, especially if you claim to offer the feature. Also false advertising.
I can see how they would try to skirt around it though, they'd probably say that it is a temporary glitch but the functionality is available. That way it wouldn't be them withholding your data or false advertising per se, but rather a temporary incapacitation.
Another option would be to find other Notion customers who have the same issue or who can reproduce the same issue. That is, find other customers who you can ask to try to download their own data as well. If the issue is not isolated to you, then you can take class action against them and they would either have to take the feature down or issue a customer wide notice of of service/feature downtime. Either of these can be deemed a violation of the SLA on their part and give you a legal path for recourse.
In the mean time, you should probably reply to that email telling them to do it manually. Tell them that it is the feature you even got the subscription for. So if they said at the time of contract it is doable, then they ought to be able to do it manually if not via the feature.
Their backlog is none of your concern, they took your money and should deliver otherwise refund you.
Hope that helps.
I can see how they would try to skirt around it though, they'd probably say that it is a temporary glitch but the functionality is available. That way it wouldn't be them withholding your data or false advertising per se, but rather a temporary incapacitation.
Another option would be to find other Notion customers who have the same issue or who can reproduce the same issue. That is, find other customers who you can ask to try to download their own data as well. If the issue is not isolated to you, then you can take class action against them and they would either have to take the feature down or issue a customer wide notice of of service/feature downtime. Either of these can be deemed a violation of the SLA on their part and give you a legal path for recourse.
In the mean time, you should probably reply to that email telling them to do it manually. Tell them that it is the feature you even got the subscription for. So if they said at the time of contract it is doable, then they ought to be able to do it manually if not via the feature.
Their backlog is none of your concern, they took your money and should deliver otherwise refund you.
Hope that helps.
This is such stunningly bad advice. Threatening legal action may get you a quicker response, if the company believes you have standing and the wherewithal to actually sue them. In most cases, however, threatening legal action is going to get you put into a queue where anything they say to you gets vetted by legal, if not just outright ignored until you actually serve them or have your own lawyer reach out.
"Go form a class action lawsuit against Notion" is just a wild thing to casually suggest as a remedy here.
"Go form a class action lawsuit against Notion" is just a wild thing to casually suggest as a remedy here.
IANAL but would the GPDR apply here? Gut feeling is that Notion needs to have a way for customers to export their personal data to comply.
I‘d assume company data (that OP talks about) is not personal data.
Only if @bertdc is an EU resident. The company is a US company, so GDPR does not apply to US customers. And even if @bertdc was in the EU, applicability can still hinge on whether the company “profiles” customer behavior and/or advertises specifically to EU residents.
Also GDPR can’t compel a company to not write bugs. If they’re legitimately trying to fix it - and they might be - then they might not be out of compliance were the GDPR to be applicable. Threatening legal action might have the unintended consequence of slowing things down rather than fixing anything.
* Oh, and TIL GDPR does not apply to company data https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27613213
Also GDPR can’t compel a company to not write bugs. If they’re legitimately trying to fix it - and they might be - then they might not be out of compliance were the GDPR to be applicable. Threatening legal action might have the unintended consequence of slowing things down rather than fixing anything.
* Oh, and TIL GDPR does not apply to company data https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27613213
Yes. Have your lawyer review and draft a letter referencing the approptiate laws. I'm sure they'll give you a manual export then.
[deleted]
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As a product manager, I understand this spiel, but that kind of answer should always be reserved for features that don’t exist yet.
This tells me their marketing dept is writing checks their product team can’t make good on. Not good.
This tells me their marketing dept is writing checks their product team can’t make good on. Not good.
Hi, Ivan here. I am the CEO of Notion.
I'm really, really sorry about this experience!
Our in-product export feature exports to a single file, and for very large workspaces this doesn't scale very well. (I know this is not an excuse for this experience. We'll do better and prioritize fixing this!)
Could you email me at ivan at makenotion.com? We'll work to fix this for you immediately.
Apologies, and really appreciate you for understanding!
Ivan
I'm really, really sorry about this experience!
Our in-product export feature exports to a single file, and for very large workspaces this doesn't scale very well. (I know this is not an excuse for this experience. We'll do better and prioritize fixing this!)
Could you email me at ivan at makenotion.com? We'll work to fix this for you immediately.
Apologies, and really appreciate you for understanding!
Ivan
Can we have a "Report HN" feature which allows people to open tickets to popular services which don't have proper support or are unwilling to solve the most pressing issues of their clients?
HN is already the friendly status page of the Internet, I thought Twitter was the support channel!
Companies should clarify which social media they are being kept honest by, as a customer being locked in I wouldn't like being ignored for three months due to using the wrong official support channel :)
Companies should clarify which social media they are being kept honest by, as a customer being locked in I wouldn't like being ignored for three months due to using the wrong official support channel :)
There's the technical problem and there's also the human problem of answering the customer problems in such a way. You need two fixes.
This is an "old" thread now, but something that stands out to me here is how damaging things like this must be for Notion's ability and opportunities to recruit developers.
I interviewed with them years ago after sharing a lot of feedback and bug reports in their early years. I was PUMPED about this space and really wanted to help make something like Notion awesome. I wanted it to work for me, I wanted it to work for others, and I knew there would be tons to learn in the space. But my impression of Notion (not their devs specifically) left me feeling like it wouldn't happen there, and I just abandoned the process. This happened with Slite, too.
But it's stuff like this which lead me to believe I shouldn't work on those teams. As a dev, I probably can't fix that the company overwhelmingly doesn't care enough about making an important feature work.
I noticed a keen interest in my ideas about which features me or my team needed, or how existing features could expand to meet our needs, but not much interest in fixing bugs or limitations. Now we're here, and the export feature doesn't work while the company continues to move forward with other things.
I can't help but think this sort of outward appearance has a negative affect on how easily they can hire, and who they can hire. This sort of things is a nail in the coffin for me - I don't want to work somewhere where we deploy day after day after day knowing that things are effectively broken.
I interviewed with them years ago after sharing a lot of feedback and bug reports in their early years. I was PUMPED about this space and really wanted to help make something like Notion awesome. I wanted it to work for me, I wanted it to work for others, and I knew there would be tons to learn in the space. But my impression of Notion (not their devs specifically) left me feeling like it wouldn't happen there, and I just abandoned the process. This happened with Slite, too.
But it's stuff like this which lead me to believe I shouldn't work on those teams. As a dev, I probably can't fix that the company overwhelmingly doesn't care enough about making an important feature work.
I noticed a keen interest in my ideas about which features me or my team needed, or how existing features could expand to meet our needs, but not much interest in fixing bugs or limitations. Now we're here, and the export feature doesn't work while the company continues to move forward with other things.
I can't help but think this sort of outward appearance has a negative affect on how easily they can hire, and who they can hire. This sort of things is a nail in the coffin for me - I don't want to work somewhere where we deploy day after day after day knowing that things are effectively broken.
You could ask for them to make the service free for you until it’s resolved. You’re still locked in, but at least you’re not paying for it.
We got tricked by the spreadsheet-like behavior of Notion too.
If you use any of the relational features in tables, they are exported only as URLs. There is no alternate export, and you can’t Copy&Paste the cells either.
Our CFO is unable to use this fancy relational table tool that we spent a lot of time and effort to build. Similar response from support.
If you use any of the relational features in tables, they are exported only as URLs. There is no alternate export, and you can’t Copy&Paste the cells either.
Our CFO is unable to use this fancy relational table tool that we spent a lot of time and effort to build. Similar response from support.
A few things come to mind, all under the theme of "lighting a fire under their ass".
First, I'd contact your state attorney general's office. See this link to usa.gov for a contact database: https://www.usa.gov/state-attorney-general || https://www.naag.org/find-my-ag/
Next, contact your representative in the House and both your Senators: https://www.house.gov/representatives && https://www.senate.gov/states/statesmap.htm
Then I'd reach out to the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) with a formal complaint: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov
Filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau might prompt some movement, even though AFAIK they have no real power over anything, but reputation damage may be threat enough to get them to play ball: https://www.bbb.org/file-a-complaint
And for "the big one": reach out to journalists in the tech industry. Posting here at HN is a good first step, but I'd tell every tech journalist who's got ears (or eyes) what's going on and see how many of them pick it up. Hopefully enough to cause some real damage (because, sadly, they've made it clear that's what it'll take to get them to stop holding you hostage).
Finally, contacting an attorney for at least an initial consult can't hurt. See americanbar.org for a list of attorneys admitted to the bar for your state: https://www.americanbar.org/directories/bar-associations/
I don't envy you, and I'll very likely never use Notion now that I've heard about this. How can anyone trust them when they literally hold their own customers hostage, ally the while lying about why they're doing it?
First, I'd contact your state attorney general's office. See this link to usa.gov for a contact database: https://www.usa.gov/state-attorney-general || https://www.naag.org/find-my-ag/
Next, contact your representative in the House and both your Senators: https://www.house.gov/representatives && https://www.senate.gov/states/statesmap.htm
Then I'd reach out to the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) with a formal complaint: https://reportfraud.ftc.gov
Filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau might prompt some movement, even though AFAIK they have no real power over anything, but reputation damage may be threat enough to get them to play ball: https://www.bbb.org/file-a-complaint
And for "the big one": reach out to journalists in the tech industry. Posting here at HN is a good first step, but I'd tell every tech journalist who's got ears (or eyes) what's going on and see how many of them pick it up. Hopefully enough to cause some real damage (because, sadly, they've made it clear that's what it'll take to get them to stop holding you hostage).
Finally, contacting an attorney for at least an initial consult can't hurt. See americanbar.org for a list of attorneys admitted to the bar for your state: https://www.americanbar.org/directories/bar-associations/
I don't envy you, and I'll very likely never use Notion now that I've heard about this. How can anyone trust them when they literally hold their own customers hostage, ally the while lying about why they're doing it?
Wouldn't it be less effort to figure out how to migrate off? Not every product works for everyone. It sounds as if you want to unleash the Spanish Inquisition.
> Wouldn't it be less effort to figure out how to migrate off?
You can't migrate data you don't have and can't get.
> It sounds as if you want to unleash the Spanish Inquisition.
Forcing a company to face civil consequences and bad PR hardly compares with an institutionalized, brutal assault on human rights that tortured and murdered ~3000 people over three centuries, some by being burned alive.
It DOES, however, bear at least a chance of the OP getting their own property (data) back from the hostage taker.
Most importantly, by creating consequences for malicious action, the OP has a good chance (if successful) of PROTECTING FUTURE VICTIMS.
When you're being attacked, you don't just lay back and take it because it's easier. You hit back, because otherwise the bad guy is going to do the same - or worse - to somebody else, next.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, 1867
You can't migrate data you don't have and can't get.
> It sounds as if you want to unleash the Spanish Inquisition.
Forcing a company to face civil consequences and bad PR hardly compares with an institutionalized, brutal assault on human rights that tortured and murdered ~3000 people over three centuries, some by being burned alive.
It DOES, however, bear at least a chance of the OP getting their own property (data) back from the hostage taker.
Most importantly, by creating consequences for malicious action, the OP has a good chance (if successful) of PROTECTING FUTURE VICTIMS.
When you're being attacked, you don't just lay back and take it because it's easier. You hit back, because otherwise the bad guy is going to do the same - or worse - to somebody else, next.
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, 1867
Congratulations, front page of HN = front page of backlog
I started using Notion last year and became increasingly uneasy about how little control I had over the notes and data I was entering into it. I switched over to Obsidian since then, which keeps my markdown files in folders on my local machine which I can then sync myself using OneDrive or something similar. You can also pay like $4/month for Obsidian to sync it for you, but you still retain copies locally.
Whoa, Obsidian looks awesome. Thanks for the tip, I'm trying it now and it looks like everything I've been wishing for.
Required proprietary cloud is a hard no for me. In today's world of crazy feature churn and products being abandoned if they don't have massive growth and/or millions of users, I don't see why anybody would rely on a tool that doesn't even give them free access to their own data, let alone a binary (or physical product) that will keep working even after support ends.
Required proprietary cloud is a hard no for me. In today's world of crazy feature churn and products being abandoned if they don't have massive growth and/or millions of users, I don't see why anybody would rely on a tool that doesn't even give them free access to their own data, let alone a binary (or physical product) that will keep working even after support ends.
Depending on what you need, they have an API and a pseudo exporter could likely be built: https://developers.notion.com/reference/intro.
Not great, but better than being stuck.
Not great, but better than being stuck.
How much will you be able to export before getting rate limited to death though?
The rate limit is 3 requests per second (https://developers.notion.com/reference/errors). If your pages are in the thousands you are still looking at only a couple hours.
Something tells me that the fix is about to skyrocket to the top of their priority list.
Yep. However it really sucks that you have to out companies like this on social media in order to get them to act on things.
A trend I have noticed is new and upcoming companies lure in customers at a break-neck pace, just shoveling all their money in greedily, all the while providing abysmal or no customer support. Uber, airbnb, robinhood (screw them in particular) and now notion all are all guilty of this.
No data export feature is pretty damning. Many organizations, especially government, have strict record-keeping requirements (e.g. for US federal agencies/departments, it's required by law). Data export isn't nice-to-have, it's critical functionality.
You’re not the only one, here’s someone who commented last month about having exactly the same problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27149433
> Around 3 months ago, I started having issues with their "Export" feature. Basically, you request to export all your data on Notion, and you're supposed to receive a link to download it. But the link never arrives.
Was it ever working? “Having issues” seems to imply the functionality disappeared.
Was it ever working? “Having issues” seems to imply the functionality disappeared.
Worst comes to worst, you could export using a library like this one: https://github.com/kjk/notionapi
That being said, definitely not ideal and is always a risk when storing your data with a SaaS service (disclaimer: I'm the founder of dendron.so - a fast open source notion competitor made for developers)
That being said, definitely not ideal and is always a risk when storing your data with a SaaS service (disclaimer: I'm the founder of dendron.so - a fast open source notion competitor made for developers)
Looks good (the dendron). One of the killer feature of Notion and alike are the mobile apps, to have most data available on the go, even with the ability to edit or add some notes. Many opensource alternatives "forget" about that.
Well this makes the "should I start using Notion" question easy. 3 months of captive data and stonewalling from support -- wouldn't touch it with ___ foot pole.
Stands to show a critical problem with relying on SaaS products. "Oh that critical function that we broke? Yeah were not fixing that."
Solution, if it's not built here, we don't rely on it. A lot more work up front, a lot more stable in the long run.
Solution, if it's not built here, we don't rely on it. A lot more work up front, a lot more stable in the long run.
And that is why we need to keep using, and creating, free as in freedom alternatives...
"there is no cloud just other people's computers"
"there is no cloud just other people's computers"
As far as I can tell you have two option. Try to write something to pull your data out yourself or get your lawyer to send a more formal sounding request on their letterhead.
Probably the letter will be cheaper but also risks them going "oh shit legal threat" and slamming your account closed meaning you no longer have access to your data at all not just no export.
Probably the letter will be cheaper but also risks them going "oh shit legal threat" and slamming your account closed meaning you no longer have access to your data at all not just no export.
From a technical perspective, why can't they manually create an export? How many man hours are needed to do this?
Or, does this mean their backend development breaks their export code, so heavy rewrite the export code is required to make export work again?
Or, does this mean their backend development breaks their export code, so heavy rewrite the export code is required to make export work again?
Some here have advocated taking legal action, although I wonder if they bothered to read Notion's terms and conditions beforehand (https://www.notion.so/Terms-Conditions-4e1c5dd3e3de45dfa4a8e...). There's a lot in there that a lawyer might find... troublesome. Like most software service agreements, it's pretty one-sided in favor of the vendor with the usual kitchen sink disclaimers and arbitration provisions.
I think you've actually made a good start by posting here on HN. As someone else wrote, going on other social media could also help. You could also file a complaint with the California Department of Consumer Affairs (whose contact info is helpfully provided in the terms). If you're a US resident you might also reach out to your local member of Congress. Many Congressional constituent services people can work wonders in cases like this.
Of course those are all the hammer. Another approach, if you've got the technical skills or willing to pay for them, is to look into writing something to leverage their API to extract your data -- although their terms prohibit spidering or scraping that's technically not the same as invoking an API. Depending on the real value of the data involved, it would probably be worth consulting a lawyer who does IP work _before_ you do any serious queries.
Did I mention that you should probably talk to a lawyer?
I think you've actually made a good start by posting here on HN. As someone else wrote, going on other social media could also help. You could also file a complaint with the California Department of Consumer Affairs (whose contact info is helpfully provided in the terms). If you're a US resident you might also reach out to your local member of Congress. Many Congressional constituent services people can work wonders in cases like this.
Of course those are all the hammer. Another approach, if you've got the technical skills or willing to pay for them, is to look into writing something to leverage their API to extract your data -- although their terms prohibit spidering or scraping that's technically not the same as invoking an API. Depending on the real value of the data involved, it would probably be worth consulting a lawyer who does IP work _before_ you do any serious queries.
Did I mention that you should probably talk to a lawyer?
I fucking hate the excuses that people who work in agile/scrum give. It's called agile development but sorry I can't fix your issue until a story is created and groomed then sized then we might put it into a Sprint and work on it and then maybe we will put it into a release.
"We have a large backlog". How about you take it out of the backlog and work on fixing it or explain to me why it's complicated so I can empathize
"We have a large backlog". How about you take it out of the backlog and work on fixing it or explain to me why it's complicated so I can empathize
This is something that has been worrying me for quite some time. Considering how many folks use Notion as a knowledge base for their personal and professional lives, I'm sure others feel the same.
Since their API is in public beta, I'm building a tool to back up and restore your Notion data to a storage provider of your choice:
https://notionbackups.com
Since their API is in public beta, I'm building a tool to back up and restore your Notion data to a storage provider of your choice:
https://notionbackups.com
Fwiw, this has been an issue from last year. My wife has been having the same problem with her notebooks. This is the same for both her company data and her personal data. I'm sorry you and others have to go through with this, just wanted to highlight this isn't a new issue.
She has now migrated all her personal notebooks to emacs orgmode and her company notebooks to gcloud/docs and MD files.
She has now migrated all her personal notebooks to emacs orgmode and her company notebooks to gcloud/docs and MD files.
While it’s definitely not ideal it looks like they have a beta API... can you use it to extract your data? Or at least extract the most important data? If you still have the founders’ contact info in your email somewhere another option is to contact them directly and ask for help. Any good founder would quickly task someone with making a miffed but loyal paying customer happy again.
I was recently looking at self-hostable Notion alternatives for my team, and I was impressed with Outline. [0]
I ended up going with Notion because it was overall more user-friendly and handled image embeds easier, but Outline would be a nice option if you want to control your own data.
https://www.getoutline.com/
I ended up going with Notion because it was overall more user-friendly and handled image embeds easier, but Outline would be a nice option if you want to control your own data.
https://www.getoutline.com/
Also the similar problem like with other alternatives - no mobile apps.
Much like you posted your story on HN, make a twitter/linkedIn post and let it go viral. More viral it goes, more chances that the features will be requested by others and more chances of it getting due love by the engineering team. I am not a fan of social shaming, but sometimes that is the last resort and that's what you are doing.
Are you in the EU or California?
This is why I use Obsidian[0]. I'm a shameless shill for self-hosted solutions, and Obsidian is just the client-portion of the notes app. You provide the syncing backend, it provides the first-class markdown experience.
[0] https://obsidian.md/
[0] https://obsidian.md/
First rule of SaaS evaluation: the tool MUST have an export feature that works.
Notion grew massively with a targeted campaign "move from Evernote to Notion". Evernote's export feature works perfectly and you are free to go anytime. That's what honest SaaS companies do.
Notion seems to be a SaaS that wants to own your data. Their API was a promise for years until they had to give up. They wanted to be your walled "one stop shop": eyeballs and data 100% in their tool (like Google Workspace).
BTW, second rule of SaaS selection: choose a SaaS that do not make money selling your data to the big adtech players. Read the privacy policy!
Notion grew massively with a targeted campaign "move from Evernote to Notion". Evernote's export feature works perfectly and you are free to go anytime. That's what honest SaaS companies do.
Notion seems to be a SaaS that wants to own your data. Their API was a promise for years until they had to give up. They wanted to be your walled "one stop shop": eyeballs and data 100% in their tool (like Google Workspace).
BTW, second rule of SaaS selection: choose a SaaS that do not make money selling your data to the big adtech players. Read the privacy policy!
I agree completely with this. I've recently started considering SAAS companies for a certain area, and I'm starting to lean more heavily towards open source self-hosted software, for the simple reason that I get complete control over the data. It's not fun to build a core part of our business under someone else's control.
> Around 3 months ago, I started having issues with their "Export" feature
I'm surprised you continued relying on them even after you realized this feature isn't working 3 months ago.
> I even exchanged emails with the founders giving detailed feedback
It also seems like you've been an early adopter so didn't you half expect this product might have major flaws and probably not the best idea to rely on it so heavily?
There seems to be an unofficial exporter you can use here: https://github.com/kjk/notionapi
I'm surprised you continued relying on them even after you realized this feature isn't working 3 months ago.
> I even exchanged emails with the founders giving detailed feedback
It also seems like you've been an early adopter so didn't you half expect this product might have major flaws and probably not the best idea to rely on it so heavily?
There seems to be an unofficial exporter you can use here: https://github.com/kjk/notionapi
Notion founders clearly aimed at keeping the product useage / arr up by locking you in without exports. I stopped using notion when I saw how the they treat people and talk to them even on their own team...
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If you don't host yourself, you don't own anything.
I've had this idea in my head to make a notion-like editor which uses Git/GH as it's store of data. When you save, it makes a commit.
Everything is saved as flat json files and image/data blobs.
Seeing this comment, is further solidifying the idea. Notion is a great editor, but having little control over data isn't great.
User should be able to control where the data lives. And when they want it gone, it should be gone. Poof!
Everything is saved as flat json files and image/data blobs.
Seeing this comment, is further solidifying the idea. Notion is a great editor, but having little control over data isn't great.
User should be able to control where the data lives. And when they want it gone, it should be gone. Poof!
Ghost's source code might be a good start.
They already have most things you need but the Git integration.
They already have most things you need but the Git integration.
Can you ask for a manual export of some sort? I realize that's annoying, but it seems like it would at least help you out.
If you want to roll your own self-hosted wiki: Vimwiki [1] on command line + Obsidian [2] on mobile works great!
[1]: https://vimwiki.github.io/ [2]: https://obsidian.md/
[1]: https://vimwiki.github.io/ [2]: https://obsidian.md/
You should not only point out that withholding your data is not a nice to have feature, but also that it is illegal.
A lot of gates open up once companies smell the power of the law, and anyone from their support likely _has to_ escalate any issue where a lawyer is plausibly mentioned.
A lot of gates open up once companies smell the power of the law, and anyone from their support likely _has to_ escalate any issue where a lawyer is plausibly mentioned.
This can backfire. Support is trained to refer to legal anytime a legal threat is made. This results in amicable support ceasing and all communication going forward being done through lawyers. You have to be prepared to actually go after them using the legal system when you do this.
One thing that always works well for these kinds of things is to post on Hacker News.
Report them to your state's Attorney General. Have a lawyer send them a letter reminding them that you paid for a service that wasn't provided and that it's costing your business money.
You need to get tech blogs and YouTube channels to cover this. Everybody loves a good story about the little guy getting screwed by the big guy. Public pressure goes a long way.
You're already halfway there!
You're already halfway there!
I back up my notion data to sqlite or postgresql using a Python package I wrote (that in turn uses notionpy). It's pretty easy to run. I can share my code with you if you want, let me know.
Every time a thread like this pops up that gains attention I wonder how many other customers are in the same spot but haven't had the same exposure so their issues remain unresolved.
I don’t see where you asked them to manually generate you a link.
I guess I can add Notion to my list of companies that ignore its customers unless shamed on social media. One to avoid.
Damn. I recently started using notion but this is crap customer service. Sorry this happened.
When people get fed up with Notion, I urge them to check out minimal.app. (In some regions it’s in beta at minimal.app/#beta.)
Minimal has fewer features than notion, but it is faster, more reliable, simpler, and more beautiful/delightful. And it is feature packed.
I love designing and building Minimal, and thousands of people love writing in Minimal.
Minimal has fewer features than notion, but it is faster, more reliable, simpler, and more beautiful/delightful. And it is feature packed.
I love designing and building Minimal, and thousands of people love writing in Minimal.
If you are an EU citizen, you can request a copy of your data as a part of GDPR[0].
0: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/refo...
0: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/refo...
Unrelated, but you might be able to download all your data with their new api
My suggestion would be to stop using Notion. It's a novel approach, but 90% of what you want is achievable with Google Docs/Drive, Office 365, etc. My suggestion might be different if the business side was in a healthier shape.
Step 1: OP should export their data, then import to their desired service.
Oh wait..
Oh wait..
The block concept doesn't cleanly carry over to services. Bugging Notion for exports, brings them here:
Step 2: Import blocks to {Some other cloud service}
Which just isn't realistic. Having step 1 changes nothing.
Step 2: Import blocks to {Some other cloud service}
Which just isn't realistic. Having step 1 changes nothing.
They have an API now; you could use that to export the data ...
wow, this sounds scary if you don't own your data
It sounds like a potential GDPR violation, maybe you can open a case with the EU?
I'm not sure why you are being downvoted, OP might be in the EU, unless I missed it they didn't specify where they are.
OP is a business customer, not an individual. GDPR rights apply to individuals, not companies.
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Most likely a violation if they are not providing data export functionality to EU customers https://gdpr-info.eu/art-20-gdpr/
Joplin is a great note taking app with complete authority over your data and has a good subset of the features that Notion provides.
If you happen to be in the EU or if you qualify somehow, you could try submitting a GDPR request for all your data, which they are legally forced to respond or face steep fines.
As I am from the EU and both a business user as well as an individual customer with the same issue I did exactly that. They ignored me flat out multiple times. It was very rude. I got it on record though so we'll see how legal goes about it. Doesn't help me get to my data any faster though. ;-/
It should be fairly easy to follow up:
https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/per...
https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/per...
You know what we should do? Sign up for Notion, add some data, and then ask to export it.
If so many people on Hackernews do that, it would be like hitting them with a GDPR denial of service attack and they’ll be forced to push out this feature ASAP.
If so many people on Hackernews do that, it would be like hitting them with a GDPR denial of service attack and they’ll be forced to push out this feature ASAP.
Empathy. A lot of these suggestions here don't show it. Sure, Notion should fix this feature. If your backlog is completely free of features that are no brainers, raise your hand.
Anybody with your hand raised should be ashamed of yourself because I bet it's not true :)
Sure they should fix this -- but is this something they should be fined for? Or be DDOS-ed by Hacker News readers? Or GDPR reported for?
It's just not a great way to get help from up and coming businesses to force major financial pain on them and it's certainly not empathetic to what's likely a hard working, reasonable set of people on the other end of this service.
Anybody with your hand raised should be ashamed of yourself because I bet it's not true :)
Sure they should fix this -- but is this something they should be fined for? Or be DDOS-ed by Hacker News readers? Or GDPR reported for?
It's just not a great way to get help from up and coming businesses to force major financial pain on them and it's certainly not empathetic to what's likely a hard working, reasonable set of people on the other end of this service.
There would be a lot more empathy if they would be voluntarily offering any kind of compensation, which really is the least you could ask for.
I dunno -- if you work on software you get used to the fact that there's always something that could be better, something that could be fixed. Something that could have a smoother user experience. This is just part and parcel of the nature of the medium. Given that they likely didn't realize this was a high priority feature until the pile-on here, and given that they're likely to re-prioritize this item to the top of that long backlog... do they really owe compensation for just having a backlog?
I mean -- I kind of feel like if you're going to store your core business information in software, you're just going to have to deal with the fact that software has bugs. It's the nature of the beast. So, is it really something they owe compensation for?
Probably they owe a bugfix, that I grant you, but compensation? I mean I guess if there was an explicit contract for the feature that tied compensation to it I could see a good argument that they owe compensation. But do they owe compensation to the good people of Hacker News who are suddenly talking about DDOS-ing the feature? That seems like a much harder case to make.
I mean -- I kind of feel like if you're going to store your core business information in software, you're just going to have to deal with the fact that software has bugs. It's the nature of the beast. So, is it really something they owe compensation for?
Probably they owe a bugfix, that I grant you, but compensation? I mean I guess if there was an explicit contract for the feature that tied compensation to it I could see a good argument that they owe compensation. But do they owe compensation to the good people of Hacker News who are suddenly talking about DDOS-ing the feature? That seems like a much harder case to make.
Around 3 months ago, I started having issues with their "Export" feature. Basically, you request to export all your data on Notion, and you're supposed to receive a link to download it. But the link never arrives.
I contacted them about this, and that's what they said at the time:
> Our engineering team is currently working through a large backlog, and there is no immediate fix for this issue...
I explained this wasn't a "nice to have" feature. It was a critical function that locks us with them and goes against their selling message of "you own your data". I was ignored, with the same robotic tone.
So today, 3 months later, I contacted them again to say I'm having the same issue. They replied with the same message:
> Please accept my sincere apologies for the ongoing difficulties with this. Our engineering team is currently working through a large backlog, and there is no immediate fix for this issue. I’ve already alerted them to the issue and told them of your particular situation, and we’ll certainly follow up if there are any developments! Really appreciate your patience with us as we continue to improve. Please let me know if there’s anything else I can help with in the meantime.
I'm again explaining the same thing - If the feature isn't working, this is a critical function that they should at least try to generate manually as per my request.
They are basically locking me in. They, again, replied with scripted messages:
> Unfortunately, our engineering team is working through quite a backlog at the moment, and there isn't an immediate fix for this issue....
Any suggestions on what I can do? Thanks!