Kei Car(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Kei Car
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car
182 comments
I used to have a 2007 Ranger which was the last generation before they disappeared, it was smaller than the current one, but still looked a lot bigger than the 80s Rangers. Now I've got a 2003 Chevy S-10 which is the last generation of those. A bit smaller than my Ranger was, but still bigger than an 80s S-10.
Unfortunately, US fuel efficiency standards killed the small pickup. You can't make them efficient enough to hit the numbers when they're small, so they get bigger. If EV trucks sell, I wonder if we'll get an actually small truck again in the 2nd or 3rd wave; fuel efficiency standards won't matter, but it would need to sell enough to justify a different design.
Unfortunately, US fuel efficiency standards killed the small pickup. You can't make them efficient enough to hit the numbers when they're small, so they get bigger. If EV trucks sell, I wonder if we'll get an actually small truck again in the 2nd or 3rd wave; fuel efficiency standards won't matter, but it would need to sell enough to justify a different design.
Ford is introducing the Maverick which is a compact hybrid pickup truck.
I would love to see this with a regular cab and a 6 foot bed. The Maverick bed is 4.5 feet, which just doesn't seem as useful to me; I've had plenty of things that didn't quite fit in a 6 foot bed, but were ok with the tailgate down and strapped in; they'd be a lot more precarious with a 4.5 foot bed.
Yes, not being able to move a piece of plywood (even with the bed down) would completely defeat the purpose of a small truck for me.
I'd rather give up cab space than bed space.
I'd rather give up cab space than bed space.
I think it’s possible to load 4x8 sheets by flipping the gate halfway down and putting 2x4s across the bed using the pockets in the sides. Good enough of you need the capability for an occasional project.
Photo in this article: https://www.autoblog.com/2021/06/08/ford-maverick-flex-bed/
Not bad. And it's not bad looking overall, really. For a truck.
Now if they'd only make it with a J1772 plug instead of as a soft hybrid.
Now if they'd only make it with a J1772 plug instead of as a soft hybrid.
The current gen Colorado isn't too big and has a six foot bed. It can be had for only $21k too.
Source: owner, and I use one for towing a vehicle trailer.
Source: owner, and I use one for towing a vehicle trailer.
You can come to Germany and buy a brand new Ford Ranger. I've seen a few of them around my small town. I've been thinking about getting one, recently.
https://www.ford.de/nutzfahrzeuge-modelle/ford-ranger
A long time ago, I had an 84 S-10, and then an 84 S-10 Blazer. Those were great trucks.
https://www.ford.de/nutzfahrzeuge-modelle/ford-ranger
A long time ago, I had an 84 S-10, and then an 84 S-10 Blazer. Those were great trucks.
That’s still the truckasaurus ranger that the OP was talking about. If any American manufacturer was serious at capturing the small truck market, they would have imported some Australian utes by now.
Ford will be manufacturing the Maverick, which seems to be about the size of the older Ranger.
Ford will be manufacturing the Maverick, which seems to be about the size of the older Ranger.
Even the Maverick looks big compared to the 90-something Ranger my dad drove when I was growing up, though perhaps the apparently-mandatory crew cab has a lot to do with that perception.
EDIT: also, is there seriously now 4WD/AWD option? That's unfortunately a non-starter for me (though if push came to shove I'd certainly take FWD over RWD).
EDIT: also, is there seriously now 4WD/AWD option? That's unfortunately a non-starter for me (though if push came to shove I'd certainly take FWD over RWD).
The crew cab thing drives me crazy. I had a '93 Ranger with standard cab and it was the perfect size. You can't buy anything like it today.
Ah, thanks, I didn't realize. They still seem a lot smaller than my Silverado, so ... but you're right, of course.
My dad had a really old Datsun truck. If you wanted small, well that was a good candidate. To this day, I wish he hadn't gotten rid of it!
My dad had a really old Datsun truck. If you wanted small, well that was a good candidate. To this day, I wish he hadn't gotten rid of it!
They're bringing the Ranger back here, too, but it's much larger than the classic 80s Ranger.
The current Ranger model is not just larger than an 80s Ranger, it's larger than an 80s F150!
70's Datsun pickups were good for that too.
In the mid-south US, those Kei trucks circulate at around $5k right now for "beater" bottom priced ones. $10k would be a decent price for one with "no known issues at the moment".
The "gator / golf cart" things from Polaris, Kubota, etc; jumped up 4 wheeler things, are nibbling at the bottom of that niche too; without ever really getting into a satisfactory fulfillment of it. Them things are the bane of the roads around here, people just assume its ok to tool around the highway with the dogs and kids piled on.
In the mid-south US, those Kei trucks circulate at around $5k right now for "beater" bottom priced ones. $10k would be a decent price for one with "no known issues at the moment".
The "gator / golf cart" things from Polaris, Kubota, etc; jumped up 4 wheeler things, are nibbling at the bottom of that niche too; without ever really getting into a satisfactory fulfillment of it. Them things are the bane of the roads around here, people just assume its ok to tool around the highway with the dogs and kids piled on.
Wow, I live rural Ontario and I've never seen a gator type thing on the road here. I see ATVs go on the roads briefly to go from one trail to another but that's it.
My dad has a Gator on his property and it's pretty meh. He complains about it a lot.
If they had a three point hitch and a PTO like a tractor I'd find them more compelling.
My dad has a Gator on his property and it's pretty meh. He complains about it a lot.
If they had a three point hitch and a PTO like a tractor I'd find them more compelling.
The giant pickup thing is a weird reflection of changing culture that I can’t quite wrap my head around. Old timey pickups tended to look like simple utilitarian farm equipmemt and kind of signified practicality or conservatism inasmuch as those were common rural values. Newer pickups have this almost scifi/military influenced styling and exaggerated proportions and I can’t help but think they are (subconsciously) being marketed at least somewhat to a Starcraft or Gundam watching type audience. These are still popular in rural US of course but now in my city there are lots of white collar men driving unnecessarily large trucks.
How big is your farm? I’ve had the same idea, although I eventually went with a 1999 GMC Savana auctioned off the county because it was only $5000 early this year. I’m in Seattle where it’s wet all the time so I like the fact that it is in closed. And it can easily fit 4 x 8 plywood in the cargo area.
Just 6.5 acres, half wooded + market garden + hobby vineyard. I've considered local beater trucks, but I'll wait until I can get farm plates (lower insurnace) which requires us making a little more revenue on the farm biz first.
> I've been wanting a Kei mini truck for around the farm here. Just for picking up lumber, manure, etc. no long highway trips. Just mostly local and on the property.
Have you looked at ATVs and pseudo-Jeeps like the Mahindra Roxor or the Kioti?
Have you looked at ATVs and pseudo-Jeeps like the Mahindra Roxor or the Kioti?
Well, those are fine for on-property, but not going places, as at least around here they're not road/hwy legal.
I have a compact tractor, I want something for moving stuff around that is either off-property (compost, manure, lumber, straw bales, etc.) or not suited for tractor/trailer.
I do have an SUV (Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is cool cuz it has a 12 amp outlet in the back for powering tools etc) but it can't fit plywood in the back and I wouldn't put dirty stuff in it, cuz it's my wife's :-)
I have a compact tractor, I want something for moving stuff around that is either off-property (compost, manure, lumber, straw bales, etc.) or not suited for tractor/trailer.
I do have an SUV (Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which is cool cuz it has a 12 amp outlet in the back for powering tools etc) but it can't fit plywood in the back and I wouldn't put dirty stuff in it, cuz it's my wife's :-)
ATVs seem to be street legal in Ontario if they have a license plate: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/driver/drive-ATV.shtml
> or not suited for tractor/trailer.
what about a small utility trailer? Cheap as dirt at harbor freight, etc.
what about a small utility trailer? Cheap as dirt at harbor freight, etc.
I have a nice aluminum trailer but I hate using it. Driving with a trailer sucks, and pulling one into the lumber yard is a pain is the worst.
Spoiled, am I. This is what happens when you combine a FAANG salary with rural hobbies ;-)
Spoiled, am I. This is what happens when you combine a FAANG salary with rural hobbies ;-)
>I don't want a big pickup truck.
It's a tough thing to buy aside from vintage. Bummer that these aren't sold in the US (1/2 down the page). Maybe it isn't just lack of demand but also scads of DOT safety standards.
https://www.toyota.com.sa/en/vehicles/commercial/LC70
I've always thought that regular cab shortbed 1/2 tons were the sweet spot, but even those look like semis now.
It's a tough thing to buy aside from vintage. Bummer that these aren't sold in the US (1/2 down the page). Maybe it isn't just lack of demand but also scads of DOT safety standards.
https://www.toyota.com.sa/en/vehicles/commercial/LC70
I've always thought that regular cab shortbed 1/2 tons were the sweet spot, but even those look like semis now.
For sure. I have a huge 1995 Ford F-150 XL that the wife and I mainly use for camping and kayaking. Needed something, and I was able to snag it for $1800. Otherwise looking at 10k+ for something newer.
It has horrible gas mileage, but I guess that's offset by pretty cheap repair costs. Parts are abundant. Parking is a real chore.
However, I've wanted to downsize, and one of the these Kei trucks would probably fit our use case 90% of the time. Just more work packing the camping gear and getting a kayak mounted safely.
It has horrible gas mileage, but I guess that's offset by pretty cheap repair costs. Parts are abundant. Parking is a real chore.
However, I've wanted to downsize, and one of the these Kei trucks would probably fit our use case 90% of the time. Just more work packing the camping gear and getting a kayak mounted safely.
Kei class cars are not usually legal for highway use in the USA.
Depends on the state.
In Oregon, for example, the DMV arbitrarily refuses to register them for any use whatsoever. It's not a law or regulation, it's more like an internal opinion or rumor that turned into a standard practice of refusal. They'll still happily give you plates and registration for your even smaller and slower Fiat 500, Subaru 360, Isetta, etc. - but if a DMV employee assumes it's an imported Kei car, you're out of luck.
Because it's not a defined rule (despite mentioning it on their website!) even non-Kei Japanese imports are risky to register. Sometimes a DMV employee will see a car they assume is Kei or close enough because it looks funny, and they'll write down the plate number and void the registration later.
If you're a business and register it with your business, that seems to mollify the DMV for some reason. A few Kei pickups and vans with Oregon plates and business logos have been roaming the local streets.
It's also somewhat common to see Kei cars driving around in Oregon from neighboring states. Totally legal for highway use in Oregon, the Oregon DMV just won't register them.
In Oregon, for example, the DMV arbitrarily refuses to register them for any use whatsoever. It's not a law or regulation, it's more like an internal opinion or rumor that turned into a standard practice of refusal. They'll still happily give you plates and registration for your even smaller and slower Fiat 500, Subaru 360, Isetta, etc. - but if a DMV employee assumes it's an imported Kei car, you're out of luck.
Because it's not a defined rule (despite mentioning it on their website!) even non-Kei Japanese imports are risky to register. Sometimes a DMV employee will see a car they assume is Kei or close enough because it looks funny, and they'll write down the plate number and void the registration later.
If you're a business and register it with your business, that seems to mollify the DMV for some reason. A few Kei pickups and vans with Oregon plates and business logos have been roaming the local streets.
It's also somewhat common to see Kei cars driving around in Oregon from neighboring states. Totally legal for highway use in Oregon, the Oregon DMV just won't register them.
It seems more than an internal opinion or rumor:
https://www.oregon.gov/odot/DMV/pages/vehicle/vehicletypes.a...
It has it's own section: "Kei Vehicles/Mini-Trucks"
"Many of these vehicles can be imported. They can be titled in Oregon, but cannot get registration because they were not primarily manufactured for U.S. roads or highways."
Perhaps it is still arbitrary, not supported by a specific regulation (but I don't know that). Still, they aren't hiding their unwillingness to register them.
https://www.oregon.gov/odot/DMV/pages/vehicle/vehicletypes.a...
It has it's own section: "Kei Vehicles/Mini-Trucks"
"Many of these vehicles can be imported. They can be titled in Oregon, but cannot get registration because they were not primarily manufactured for U.S. roads or highways."
Perhaps it is still arbitrary, not supported by a specific regulation (but I don't know that). Still, they aren't hiding their unwillingness to register them.
I think they're legal here in Canadia, but I've also heard they are highly unpleasant on the highway.
If they’re older than 25 years old, they can be driven on the highway in the USA because they’re exempt from EPA and crash safety standards. That said, I’ve driven one 10k miles mostly highway and I would not recommend it. The car tops out at 120kmh at the redline and is very light and top heavy, so it can almost be blown over in the window.
It varies by state. Limiting them to roads with speeds <50 or so is somewhat common.
There are two sets of regulations IIRC.
If it’s older than 25 years on import, you can bypass FMVSS/EPA/DOT regulations, so they are always perfectly legal to drive on the federal highway system (incl. at 70-80mph). Some states will refuse to register them though, such as Minnesota or Oregon.
Separately, some states have an import process for cars newer than 25 years old which allows them to be licensed as UTVs/ATVs, so they can go on local roads but are usually speed limited. And iirc, they can’t drive on federal highways.
If it’s older than 25 years on import, you can bypass FMVSS/EPA/DOT regulations, so they are always perfectly legal to drive on the federal highway system (incl. at 70-80mph). Some states will refuse to register them though, such as Minnesota or Oregon.
Separately, some states have an import process for cars newer than 25 years old which allows them to be licensed as UTVs/ATVs, so they can go on local roads but are usually speed limited. And iirc, they can’t drive on federal highways.
Innnteresting. I'm going to have to look into it again with that in mind. I really would like to own one.
I just drove my father-in-law's kei truck through southern Japan for about 5 hours in total, mostly on the "express". Even mild wind had me legitimately scared a few times, and it has no guts when it's necessary to pass.
Besides that it was a blast to drive, it feels more like an oversized toy than a vehicle.
Besides that it was a blast to drive, it feels more like an oversized toy than a vehicle.
When I was in college, my friend was driving an early 80s Ford Ranger. It was crazy how much smaller it was then a modern pickup...
Yeah it was also great in high school in the winter when I would miss a day of school because I couldn't get the thing up the driveway. Best excuse ever, underpowered rear wheel drive in a Canadian winter.
He kept a pair of brake drums in the bed in winter, but this was Indiana which has milder winters then most of Canada
Yeah this was in central Alberta, pretty brutal winters. And my parents had a bit of a steep driveway.
These days I live in southern Ontario which is about the same as Indiana for climate.
One thing about that old Ford Ranger is that the cab was small and the engine hot and it heated up faster in the winter than any other vehicle I've ever had.
These days I live in southern Ontario which is about the same as Indiana for climate.
One thing about that old Ford Ranger is that the cab was small and the engine hot and it heated up faster in the winter than any other vehicle I've ever had.
As someone who owns one, they’re much cheaper if you import it yourself — the importers charge a massive markup. I think I ended up at about 5k USD for a 25 year old one in the US. Might be different import fees for Canada.
There is a shop which imports JDM cars ran by one fellow I knew from Vladivostok in Vancouver: https://www.velocitycars.ca/
I got a '97 Dodge Dakota, and thought it was unnessarily big at the time, I also thought it was unnessarily mechanically complex too.
Fast forward to today, and it seems small, and simple to work on.
I was just thinking, if they made the exact same truck, I might buy another Dodge.
I guess they did their homework, and decided Americans want huge trucks?
Fast forward to today, and it seems small, and simple to work on.
I was just thinking, if they made the exact same truck, I might buy another Dodge.
I guess they did their homework, and decided Americans want huge trucks?
Beside large trucks being generally popular, there’s also regulatory reasons that are pushing smaller and cheaper cars out of the market. Even if dodge wanted to make that exact Dakota again, there’s at least a handful of regulatory reasons they couldn’t.
I bet this would gather some attention: http://www.piaggiocommercialvehicles.com/it_IT/modelli/ape/a...
FWIW Ford is coming out with the the Maverick, and Hyundai's coming out with the Santa Cruz.
Not mini trucks, not as small as an 84, but they're both still smaller then the current batch of trucks and the base MSRP for the Maverick is $25,900 CAD.
Not mini trucks, not as small as an 84, but they're both still smaller then the current batch of trucks and the base MSRP for the Maverick is $25,900 CAD.
Yeah I did see that, though it looks like the hybrid option is just a soft hybrid, no plug/PHEV and no EV option, right?
I feel like if I'm going to pay the money for a new vehicle, I'll replace my Volt with an EV truck. But only once there is an option below $45k CAD. Which could be a long time.
I feel like if I'm going to pay the money for a new vehicle, I'll replace my Volt with an EV truck. But only once there is an option below $45k CAD. Which could be a long time.
Do look at small chinese electric trucks, found this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzMsJqDNke8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzMsJqDNke8
A kawasaki mule is pretty comparable to a kei car and you can buy one new
Not permitted on the roads.
There are several states like Texas where most UTVs/sxs are legal to be driven on public roads. And several other states where they are street legal if you add a kit with turn signals and a horn. In Canada these can be legal at least in Ontario, I would expect they can be driven on roads in rural areas
those are pretty common on roads in rural areas
Why not get a side-by-side?
You can also still get old trucks in great shape. Think old Toyota, Rangers, last gen Colorado.. Set aside $300 a year to keep it running, pretty much cheaper than any alternative.
You can also still get old trucks in great shape. Think old Toyota, Rangers, last gen Colorado.. Set aside $300 a year to keep it running, pretty much cheaper than any alternative.
1980's Volkswagen pickup was perfect for stuff like this.
We had one. It was great. My dad bolted a wooden crossbar to the back of the bed, and an old metal crossbar over the cab. We used to carry a small sailboat, windsurfer, etc. Great for dump runs, etc.
I'd like a truck like that now. An electric version of the new Ford Maverick would be perfect.
I'd like a truck like that now. An electric version of the new Ford Maverick would be perfect.
Some others called it out, but the Ford Maverick hybrid is coming out that starts at $20k and is about the size of the old rangers.
Isn't it a problem that the steering wheel would be on the right side? Japan drives on the left.
Right hand drive can be road legal here. Not all companies will insure it but many will. Would take some getting used to, but I've seen people driving them around.
Not at all. Passing using the oncoming lane is difficult, but everything else is doable. Mail trucks in the US are right-hand drive so they can deliver to road-side boxes through the drivers window.
On somewhat related note.. When I was in Japan I was staggered by the lack of diesel cars. In one month there I cannot recall seeing any of them. It was all petrol or hybrid.
It must be European thing..
There were some strict laws on emissions passed about 20 years ago which led many Japanese car manufacturers to focus on reducing particulate pollution levels. Diesel engines are still used, but are rare compared to petrol because you need relatively expensive filters to meet the new requirements on a diesel.
I'm very surprised by Japan not being a big battery manufacturer already. Sure they do a lot business in battery materials, but so far none of Japanese battery makers seriously entered the automotive battery market on a scale of Chinese factories.
By my calculations, the horsepower limit, speed limit, emission penalties, and general size, and crash-worthiness requirements already make a 10-15kWh battery pack powered K car surely cheaper than an IC one.
And on top of that. Japanese who have cars drive really, really little, even by standards of similar countries with a lot of big cities close together. (South Korea being the biggest antipod, they really drive around a lot)
By my calculations, the horsepower limit, speed limit, emission penalties, and general size, and crash-worthiness requirements already make a 10-15kWh battery pack powered K car surely cheaper than an IC one.
And on top of that. Japanese who have cars drive really, really little, even by standards of similar countries with a lot of big cities close together. (South Korea being the biggest antipod, they really drive around a lot)
Do the dynamics of Tokyo drivers (car exists for driving to the countryside) make sense for a small-range electric vehicle? Like there aren’t that many EV parking spots in the outlet stores 2.5 hours away
Seems like electric makes more sense in places where people are more likely to use their cars for daily commutes
Seems like electric makes more sense in places where people are more likely to use their cars for daily commutes
Japanese daily commute is like 10km for a roundtrip, even for rural areas. A 10kWh battery will last days in such usage regimen.
My point was more about people living in large cities just using public transportation instead for their daily commutes. Perhaps I’m totally wrong on the relative scale of that
It’s not that all car sales happen in Tokyo (far from it) and there’s a lot of Tesla’s etc, but why buy a car that you would only be able to use for a daily commute and not for trips that go much further than that?
10kwh according to Google gets you like 80km. That’s pretty minuscule and would preclude even short weekend trips.
It’s not that all car sales happen in Tokyo (far from it) and there’s a lot of Tesla’s etc, but why buy a car that you would only be able to use for a daily commute and not for trips that go much further than that?
10kwh according to Google gets you like 80km. That’s pretty minuscule and would preclude even short weekend trips.
I knew one Japanese guy with two cars. One Kei, for driving the hood, and daily commute. And one proper, large car for "showing off" in the big city. He said such was rather common.
The fancier is the car, the less people drive it so they can sell it at higher value.
The fancier is the car, the less people drive it so they can sell it at higher value.
I think part of the reason that people will have one Kei (or 5 number) car and one 3 number car is that there are a lot of narrow streets, tight corners, and parking spaces that 3 number cars will barely manage that are much easier to navigate with a smaller vehicle.
The Tesla gigafactory in Nevada is mostly run by Panasonic. I expect that there is little domestic production there because Toyota & Honda haven't fully embraced EVs yet.
https://na.panasonic.com/us/whatmovesus/gigafactory
https://na.panasonic.com/us/whatmovesus/gigafactory
An electric k car (i-MiEV) was the one of the first mainstream electric vehicles, made in 2009, but since then charging infrastructure has not been growing at a very fast rate and is quite a way behind smaller European countries. There are several companies announcing electric k cars for release in the next couple of years but they are much more expensive than petrol and I think it will be decades before they are widespread.
> And on top of that. Japanese who have cars drive really, really little, even by standards of similar countries with a lot of big cities close together. (South Korea being the biggest antipod, they really drive around a lot)
That’s a pretty big assumption. By the time you get to Nagoya (3rd-4th largest city), commuting by car is common and families will have 2-3 vehicles.
That’s a pretty big assumption. By the time you get to Nagoya (3rd-4th largest city), commuting by car is common and families will have 2-3 vehicles.
Diesel being so widespread was mostly a European thing; the EU limits set following the Kyoto Agreement were very strict on CO2 (a climate change concern) and much less so on particulate matter (a local air quality concern), which led to a huge movement towards diesel cars in the EU.
You'll see very few diesel cars in the USA either.
Close to half the Mazda sales in Japan are with diesel engines.
In major metro areas Japan has banned the registration of most diesel consumer vehicles (not talking about busses or trucks) unless they are the new 'clean diesel' types. You can't live in Tokyo or Osaka and register a diesel Land Cruiser, for instance.
Surprised to see it getting to the front-page, but yeah, most countries miss a lot because of lack of small, affordable cars.
Most of EU, and especially larger, expensive cities have a taste for small cars, and equally so friendlier regulations for them.
Most of the developing world drives Suzukis, no challenge to that. Extremely cost optimised cars, very close to what Toyota did in eighties, but since discontinued.
Most of EU, and especially larger, expensive cities have a taste for small cars, and equally so friendlier regulations for them.
Most of the developing world drives Suzukis, no challenge to that. Extremely cost optimised cars, very close to what Toyota did in eighties, but since discontinued.
Fascinating how they've expanded in size and engine displacement over the years. That seems common for any category of item meant to be minimal: people think, "If we could only add a little more x..." and then in a few years it's time for a new minimal.
Scope creep happens everywhere...
Keep in mind that modern safety features add both size and weight. Increasing the maximum engine displacement (last done in 1990) and size (last done in 1998) is necessary in order to keep speed and interior volume consistent with new safety features.
In fact, I'd argue they haven't increased enough—safety tech has improved by leaps and bounds since 1998, and anyone who's been in a modern car compared to a 1998 car can testify that there's much less usable interior space now in a car of the same external dimensions as one from 1998, and you can thank all the extra airbags, crumple zones, etc. that have been introduced since then.
In fact, I'd argue they haven't increased enough—safety tech has improved by leaps and bounds since 1998, and anyone who's been in a modern car compared to a 1998 car can testify that there's much less usable interior space now in a car of the same external dimensions as one from 1998, and you can thank all the extra airbags, crumple zones, etc. that have been introduced since then.
Also why you can't see a damn thing past the A pillars. They must hold the weight of the vehicle if turned over and they often contain airbags increasing their size more as well.
Just like what happened to netbooks. The original “minimalist laptop just powerful enough to run a browser” went through so many rounds of “but this one’s a bit bigger/faster/nicer so we’ll buy this one” that they turned into budget laptops.
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When I lived in Vladivostok, we had all kinds of Japanese strangeness in excess: Cappuccinos, Copens, Beats, Autozams... etc
I've noticed a LOT of interesting support/maintenance content from Siberian folks on various Japanese car forums. Things like Toyota Chasers, which are bullet-proof reliable drift sedans....but I wouldn't expect them to handle shitty Russian roads well.
Famously unreliable undercarriage, factory tie rods, driveshaft snap like sticks.
Yes, but kids like them. The cheapest car to put an enormous turbo.
Yes, but kids like them. The cheapest car to put an enormous turbo.
>>>Famously unreliable undercarriage, factory tie rods, driveshaft snap like sticks.
Yeah they work great on immaculate Japanese roads, where we usually only kill clutches and maybe transmissions. I would expect Hiluxes and FJ Cruisers to be better suited to Russia but those are typically at a higher price point.
Yeah they work great on immaculate Japanese roads, where we usually only kill clutches and maybe transmissions. I would expect Hiluxes and FJ Cruisers to be better suited to Russia but those are typically at a higher price point.
WagonR is known in India as an unkillable car. The suspension is jarring, guess its a constraint for a tall car. A glaring omission in the article IMO.
Stamped U shape parts make a difference.
They don't fail as dramatically as weight optimised forged ones. Rather, they can bend, stretch, and tear a bit more gradually, and don't die from a single metallurgic defect
They don't fail as dramatically as weight optimised forged ones. Rather, they can bend, stretch, and tear a bit more gradually, and don't die from a single metallurgic defect
In theory, these are about as resource-efficient as an ICE-powered commuter vehicle can get.
In reality....they are unreliable little shitboxes, and I hate being stuck behind them on a hill, or on the expressway, or saddled with one as a loaner when my daily driver is in a shop for maintenance. They are often geared such that driving one at any speed over 80kph feels like you are risking Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly. Unless it's one of the crazy sporty variants, such as a Suzuki Alto Works or a Suzuki Cappuccino. Those are cool. Oh, and the kei pick-up trucks are very useful little vehicles....probably what half of American pickup truck drivers should have instead of their underutilized monster trucks (F-150, Dodge Ram, etc..).
In reality....they are unreliable little shitboxes, and I hate being stuck behind them on a hill, or on the expressway, or saddled with one as a loaner when my daily driver is in a shop for maintenance. They are often geared such that driving one at any speed over 80kph feels like you are risking Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly. Unless it's one of the crazy sporty variants, such as a Suzuki Alto Works or a Suzuki Cappuccino. Those are cool. Oh, and the kei pick-up trucks are very useful little vehicles....probably what half of American pickup truck drivers should have instead of their underutilized monster trucks (F-150, Dodge Ram, etc..).
One of the local car dealers here in central PA (US) often has one or two of the tiny Kei pick-up trucks for sale ... truly perfect for some of the business who only drive around town (as noted, lower speeds are a key).
> In reality....they are unreliable little shitboxes, and I hate being stuck behind them on a hill, or on the expressway, or saddled with one as a loaner when my daily driver is in a shop for maintenance. They are often geared such that driving one at any speed over 80kph feels like you are risking Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly.
I disagree with this pretty strongly. While I agree they aren't good above 80, that doesn't equate to them being "unreliable little shitboxes". They're very very reliable (rarely need any maintenance).
Also, everything except expressways have a speed limit of 60, so you can use it no problem. Going up the mountains they can do fine if you rev a bit high, just makes them fuel inefficient.
I disagree with this pretty strongly. While I agree they aren't good above 80, that doesn't equate to them being "unreliable little shitboxes". They're very very reliable (rarely need any maintenance).
Also, everything except expressways have a speed limit of 60, so you can use it no problem. Going up the mountains they can do fine if you rev a bit high, just makes them fuel inefficient.
I'm comparing their reliability to things like older Toyotas and Hondas, which are reliable far past any reasonable intended service life. Keis seem to function perfectly for a few years, and then suffer a number of spectacular mechanical failures suddenly, like a BMW. It's why my other half ditched her Daihatsu Latte for a Nissan Note.
Small, cheap vehicles are made small and cheap. After a couple of years of trying to do 80-90mph on the interstate or turn pike twice per day at least, a 0.63liter 3-Cylinder Daihatsu "Wake" (with cvt and 60hp) is gonna feel pretty bad. Chassis components will become quite worn, and engine wear will be increased by such demands. I am only considering CONUS driving habits, they're probably amazing for a very dense Japanese (or other) city.
It's not reasonable to expect undersized components intended for lightest-duty in-town city driving to hold up very well beyond picking up the dry cleaning, groceries, or driving to a parking lot. If you use it only in that way, it's probably fine. When maintenance becomes required, it's also likely often not worth the money to do any serious overhauls to the lawnmower.
It's not reasonable to expect undersized components intended for lightest-duty in-town city driving to hold up very well beyond picking up the dry cleaning, groceries, or driving to a parking lot. If you use it only in that way, it's probably fine. When maintenance becomes required, it's also likely often not worth the money to do any serious overhauls to the lawnmower.
Yeah, I dunno - I had a 13 year old Daihatsu with >200,00km (which is a damn lot for japan)... Never had to do any maintenance. Had several friends with similar age keis who also had no issues.
Kei car's quality is significantly improved in about recent 10 years. I no longer think kei car is crap.
Japanese speed limits are in dire need of reform. Police need to prove that you were speeding so every speed limit is set 20km/h under the de facto speed limit for the road.
Driving at 60km/h on a road where people expect you to drive 80 or 90 just makes people mad and likely to do something stupid.
Driving at 60km/h on a road where people expect you to drive 80 or 90 just makes people mad and likely to do something stupid.
How do they prove it? Unless it’s by receipt from a radar gun which is how it works everywhere else.
We also require receipt, and there is no shenanigans with speed limits.
We also require receipt, and there is no shenanigans with speed limits.
Now I need a "top 10 myths about driving in Japan". I thought Japanese drivers obeyed everything to the letter. I also thought Japan was a tiny car market and defacto pedestrian (its one of the biggest markets).
>Police need to prove that you were speeding
It is the same in all societies with a working justice system (well maybe not if there's not a working democracy too).
It is the same in all societies with a working justice system (well maybe not if there's not a working democracy too).
I wouldn’t call a justice system ‘working’ if it subverts its own processes and traps its citizens with unreasonable laws and inconsistent enforcement.
As said, they have no problem going 80, so they're fine on everything except expressways.
>Also, everything except expressways have a speed limit of 60, so you can use it no problem.
Not sure where in Japan you've been driving, but my experience is that sticking to the posted speed limit on most roads makes you a hazard to navigation - particularly outside of cities.
Not sure where in Japan you've been driving, but my experience is that sticking to the posted speed limit on most roads makes you a hazard to navigation - particularly outside of cities.
Wikipedia adds that there are now electric ones. The article doesn't say whether the electric ones are shitboxen though.
American pick-up drivers are by and large not buying their cars for their utility.
It's penis envy purchasing.
Modern ones feel totally fine at highway speeds. We have a 2017 CVT Suzuki Spacia and it feels totally safe (not wandering steering or vibrations or anything), normal, brakes still stop it quickly, and the engine is not strained on the highway at 120 km/h (of course the crash safety of these things is terrible due to the lack of crumple zones so you should not drive at that speed, but it feels totally fine, to the point where I've accidentally started speeding without noticing)
The loaners we've had during shaken are all like 10+ years old and terrible, just as you describe.
The loaners we've had during shaken are all like 10+ years old and terrible, just as you describe.
How is the Spacia if you splash through a bit of a puddle on the highway?
Does the wheel jerk, bump steer a ton at that speed?
If you happen to have noticed, how does it handle something like a steel plate (temporarily placed during road work) ?
I have just recently found out about the Subaru Sambar / Daihatsu HiMax microvans and have been very curious. Since I'm unlikely to find an opportunity to test drive a Sambar, I was imagining that these little citycars might be a bit unstable at higher speeds, wet conditions or travelling alongside semi-trailers on CONUS State roads and certainly the Interstate.
Does the wheel jerk, bump steer a ton at that speed?
If you happen to have noticed, how does it handle something like a steel plate (temporarily placed during road work) ?
I have just recently found out about the Subaru Sambar / Daihatsu HiMax microvans and have been very curious. Since I'm unlikely to find an opportunity to test drive a Sambar, I was imagining that these little citycars might be a bit unstable at higher speeds, wet conditions or travelling alongside semi-trailers on CONUS State roads and certainly the Interstate.
> Oh, and the kei pick-up trucks are very useful little vehicles....probably what half of American pickup truck drivers should have instead of their underutilized monster trucks (F-150, Dodge Ram, etc..).
A kei truck (with 4WD/AWD) is exactly what I would buy if I could actually register it here in Nevada.
A kei truck (with 4WD/AWD) is exactly what I would buy if I could actually register it here in Nevada.
Not Japan but there are some nice chinese EV microcars, I'd really get one of these if they were available in Europe. But most likely it wouldn't pass any EU regulatory laws, or at least not for this price point (~$4500)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6GjphV4DCU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6GjphV4DCU
From the Wikipedia article, it sounds like a modified EU-compliant variant is coming to EU.
>In 2021, a Latvian-based company Dartz (known for their armoured SUVs) announced a plan to sell the Hongguang Mini EV as the Dartz FreZe Nikrob, with a starting price in certain European countries at around €9,999 and assembled in the EU by Lithuanian company, Nikrob.
>In 2021, a Latvian-based company Dartz (known for their armoured SUVs) announced a plan to sell the Hongguang Mini EV as the Dartz FreZe Nikrob, with a starting price in certain European countries at around €9,999 and assembled in the EU by Lithuanian company, Nikrob.
I’m amazed to see that there’s a model of the Caterham 7, “the car that’s too fast to race”, that fits into this category.
Shows that small cars don’t have to be boring or slow.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterham_7
Shows that small cars don’t have to be boring or slow.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterham_7
Apparently there's a Kei truck for sale right now on SFBay Craigslist:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/ctd/d/san-mateo-1996-subaru...
What to tell the wife? Hmmm....
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/ctd/d/san-mateo-1996-subaru...
What to tell the wife? Hmmm....
Unless you live on Catalina Island, my bet is that you can't license it for the street.
It's a shame. I'd own one in a minute set up for snow days.
It's a shame. I'd own one in a minute set up for snow days.
That's a California dealer license plate on the back of it. It appears to be street legal, but possibly only for city streets and not freeway driving.
Once it’s 25 years old, you can import anything you want and register it. That kei is a 96.
https://helpspanish.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-278?language=e...
In Canada, the rule is just 15 years, which is why you’ll see more Keis here
https://helpspanish.cbp.gov/s/article/Article-278?language=e...
In Canada, the rule is just 15 years, which is why you’ll see more Keis here
There’s the 25 year rule and then there is California. In NC I can import any 25 year old car, when I was in CA it still needed to get a sign off from the state BAR. They work on a different set of rules. You can register it in another state without the hassle you just risk getting tickets for not being CA registered.
>There’s the 25 year rule and then there is California.
Exactly.
I remember in the DMV regulations that there's a special dispensation for Kei cars that essentially defines Catalina. 'An island over xxx square miles in size' sort of thing.
It used to be big fun here (before they went to 1975 and earlier gasoline engined cars going to not being inspected) if you had a car that was incapable of passing even when new.
I'm actually quite surprised that they don't check date codes on tires and require new seat belts every so many years.
Exactly.
I remember in the DMV regulations that there's a special dispensation for Kei cars that essentially defines Catalina. 'An island over xxx square miles in size' sort of thing.
It used to be big fun here (before they went to 1975 and earlier gasoline engined cars going to not being inspected) if you had a car that was incapable of passing even when new.
I'm actually quite surprised that they don't check date codes on tires and require new seat belts every so many years.
It surprises me honestly. North Carolina does emissions and a safety inspection, there are quite a few cars on California roads that would definitely not be considered road legal here. Although to be fair our 25 (20 maybe?) year emissions exemption is rolling, so cars that turn 25 that new year are now exempt as well. It’s kind of nice.
Yeah, there's absolutely no "inspection" whatsoever in California, other than emissions testing.
Of course, if you're building a kit car or rebuilding a salvaged car or any number of edge cases, BAR has to certify the vehicle, but for a "normal" car you can get away with almost anything. Bald tires, no seatbelts, windshield wipers falling off, glass smashed up all to hell, wheel bearing so shot it looks like you're driving a paint shaker.
Granted, it's illegal and you could get a ticket for it, but you'll see plenty of smashed up cars with no headlights or bumpers or whatever driving around on the roads in CA. It's just a matter of not running across a police officer who feels like spending the time to ticket you for blatantly illegal (lack of) equipment.
Of course, if you're building a kit car or rebuilding a salvaged car or any number of edge cases, BAR has to certify the vehicle, but for a "normal" car you can get away with almost anything. Bald tires, no seatbelts, windshield wipers falling off, glass smashed up all to hell, wheel bearing so shot it looks like you're driving a paint shaker.
Granted, it's illegal and you could get a ticket for it, but you'll see plenty of smashed up cars with no headlights or bumpers or whatever driving around on the roads in CA. It's just a matter of not running across a police officer who feels like spending the time to ticket you for blatantly illegal (lack of) equipment.
California does smog, but no safety inspection that I know of. You can have a car with the brake lines repaired with duct tape, but as long as the check engine light isn't lit and it passes smog, you're good to go.
I met a guy at the La Jolla Concours d'Elegance who had imported an ('82?) Trabant. He had gotten it registered with the CA license plate "IRNCRTN". Apparently, Cal DMV saw that it was over twenty-five years old, gave him an exception and the plates, and then demanded that he have it smogged.
A two-stroke Trabant.
I believe he showed the DMV the bottle of oil that he poured into the gas tank after every fillup, and asked them if there was a smog check place willing to hook what is essentially an old lawnmower up to their million-dollar diagnostic apparatus. This seemed to work.
I met a guy at the La Jolla Concours d'Elegance who had imported an ('82?) Trabant. He had gotten it registered with the CA license plate "IRNCRTN". Apparently, Cal DMV saw that it was over twenty-five years old, gave him an exception and the plates, and then demanded that he have it smogged.
A two-stroke Trabant.
I believe he showed the DMV the bottle of oil that he poured into the gas tank after every fillup, and asked them if there was a smog check place willing to hook what is essentially an old lawnmower up to their million-dollar diagnostic apparatus. This seemed to work.
Passing visual was always the crazy part. Heaven help you if you have a 1976 car that's missing some part made from unobtanium.
My understanding is that they can't test for NOx without rollers and the smog shops couldn't afford it.
In any case, you'd end up with cases where cars put together by show judges couldn't pass because it didn't match some book. A lot of cars used to have to have crazy gadgets that interfered with spark advance.
All for pass or not pass.
Truth is, I'll bet you could drop the whole system and not see a change in air quality at this point. Super-dirty early cars get a bye (aircooled VW) and late model are rarely modified or worn out. If you feel the need to test, do a good job and then simply charge for the amount of emissions that come out.
I have the feeling that the emissions industry has metastasized into a political power. Not unlike car dealerships.
regarding Kei cars/trucks, my working theory is that most of the objections are safety related. Lots of DOT standards that the rest of the world ignores. Oddly, motorcycles are perfectly legal.
My understanding is that they can't test for NOx without rollers and the smog shops couldn't afford it.
In any case, you'd end up with cases where cars put together by show judges couldn't pass because it didn't match some book. A lot of cars used to have to have crazy gadgets that interfered with spark advance.
All for pass or not pass.
Truth is, I'll bet you could drop the whole system and not see a change in air quality at this point. Super-dirty early cars get a bye (aircooled VW) and late model are rarely modified or worn out. If you feel the need to test, do a good job and then simply charge for the amount of emissions that come out.
I have the feeling that the emissions industry has metastasized into a political power. Not unlike car dealerships.
regarding Kei cars/trucks, my working theory is that most of the objections are safety related. Lots of DOT standards that the rest of the world ignores. Oddly, motorcycles are perfectly legal.
> Truth is, I'll bet you could drop the whole system and not see a change in air quality at this point. Super-dirty early cars get a bye (aircooled VW) and late model are rarely modified or worn out.
That’s basically what happened in Ontario Canada. They dropped the program because it wasn’t providing any value. New cars would maintain good emissions control for 10 years and beyond that, salt does a good job of destroying cars anyway.
CO2 is a different story with pickups and SUVs. Ultimately, it’s how much you drive and how you drive, and that’s better addressed with gas taxes.
That’s basically what happened in Ontario Canada. They dropped the program because it wasn’t providing any value. New cars would maintain good emissions control for 10 years and beyond that, salt does a good job of destroying cars anyway.
CO2 is a different story with pickups and SUVs. Ultimately, it’s how much you drive and how you drive, and that’s better addressed with gas taxes.
[deleted]
hah, found the DMV rule
"Only if located on a natural island with an area in excess of 20,000 acres and that is within a county having a population in excess of 4,000,000"
"Only if located on a natural island with an area in excess of 20,000 acres and that is within a county having a population in excess of 4,000,000"
> You can register it in another state without the hassle you just risk getting tickets for not being CA registered.
The trick is to have your license in that state, too. Then the CHP can't prove that you're a California resident (at least not during a traffic stop) ;)
The trick is to have your license in that state, too. Then the CHP can't prove that you're a California resident (at least not during a traffic stop) ;)
Japanese Kei trucks newer than 25 years old are pretty regularly imported into the US as Low Speed Vehicles (LSVs), which are permitted on streets with speed limits of 35mph or less. I'm not sure of the exact regulatory requirements for importing vehicles under this rule but it must be fairly relaxed as there's a number of small companies doing this. So you may have options for using a newer Kei truck around town.
A lot of the vehicles you see on Catalina Island, for example, are sold under the LSV rule and also popular as things like campus vehicles.
A lot of the vehicles you see on Catalina Island, for example, are sold under the LSV rule and also popular as things like campus vehicles.
For those who don't know, that's the Caterham 7 née Lotus 7, as seen here for instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oROs7aJAg8k It's pretty amusing that it has city-car certification, all right.
1957 the original Lotus 7 was launched.
It’s one of those designs, like the 911, that are still an absolute beast even today.
It’s so simple and right for it’s intended purpose it just doesn’t age.
Or more precisely they’ve been able to evolve the basic concept to keep it competitive.
It’s one of those designs, like the 911, that are still an absolute beast even today.
It’s so simple and right for it’s intended purpose it just doesn’t age.
Or more precisely they’ve been able to evolve the basic concept to keep it competitive.
As far as I know, there isn't a limit of power / speed for kei car category. In the old days Suzuki made a kei car that was "too powerful", the government "communicated" with them, and they settled with 64hps. Since then all the manufactures self-imposed the 64hps limit, but it's still legal for someone to power up their own car.
Smart K is another non-Japanese kei car that's more powerful.
Smart K is another non-Japanese kei car that's more powerful.
That's pretty funny. Japanese manufacturers also had an informal agreement to limit motorcycles to 310kmh for a while: https://medium.com/gasolirium/the-gentlemens-agreement-abc60...
The Copen definitely wasn't slow either, despite relatively limited horsepower the total weight was a bit over 700 kg and the engine ran all the way to 12K revs (4 cyl 700cc, it's like a motorcycle engine). Topped out at 185 on the GPS, which is plenty fast for something that small. It also does right angles at 70 or so which is quite interesting :)
Sure, but a sidewinder missile is pretty quick too ... this is apples to oranges since you can easily fit a girl and a dog into a Subaru Sambar, try that in the rod :)
There’s a Kei fire truck in San Francisco that’s becoming increasingly well recognized.
https://abc7news.com/localish/this-fun-sized-fire-truck-conn...
https://abc7news.com/localish/this-fun-sized-fire-truck-conn...
There was one recently on sale in the US as well. Sold for a reasonable $4750.
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/rEAVLLvk/1989-daihatsu-hije...
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/rEAVLLvk/1989-daihatsu-hije...
Not to be confused with the K car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_platform
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_platform
Somewhat similar are “moped cars” which can be driven with a moped license in many European countries. This can bring the age when youth can drive down to 15 or 16 years old.
Most of the manufacturers I am familiar with are French, and lots of 15 year olds drive them in Sweden.
They have tiny Diesel engines and are limited to two seats, very light weight and max 45kph.
I’m Sweden there is another class of car where you convert a normal sized car into something that is legally a tractor. These can also be driven at 15 years old, and are limited to just 30kph but are much cheaper than moped cars.
Most of the manufacturers I am familiar with are French, and lots of 15 year olds drive them in Sweden.
They have tiny Diesel engines and are limited to two seats, very light weight and max 45kph.
I’m Sweden there is another class of car where you convert a normal sized car into something that is legally a tractor. These can also be driven at 15 years old, and are limited to just 30kph but are much cheaper than moped cars.
The moped cars are super unsafe. They're designed to be driven inside a city, but no one in a city actually needs one, so they all go to kids that live in either suburbs or in more rural places. Then they're driven on roads where all of the other cars are bigger and going faster.
There was a case a couple of years back where someone suicidal was driving his Mercedes-Benz van and (according to his statement) thought that the oncoming lights were from a truck and drove towards it. However, it was actually a moped car.
This is what happened to the van: https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1920/a659907378c54818bbc915e...
And this is the moped car: https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1920/2965ca321c7a47758ca5a81...
Van driver got away with minor injuries, the two youths inside the moped car died instantly.
There was a case a couple of years back where someone suicidal was driving his Mercedes-Benz van and (according to his statement) thought that the oncoming lights were from a truck and drove towards it. However, it was actually a moped car.
This is what happened to the van: https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1920/a659907378c54818bbc915e...
And this is the moped car: https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1920/2965ca321c7a47758ca5a81...
Van driver got away with minor injuries, the two youths inside the moped car died instantly.
Seeing that another comment says that Kei cars are no good over 80, I think there's a wide difference between the two.
The speed of moped cars and “tractors” is limited by law, not physics.
Moped cars are very similar to the kei cars that I have seen.
Swedish tractors are something else: I have seen 15 year olds driving Porsche “tractors” in Sweden.
Moped cars are very similar to the kei cars that I have seen.
Swedish tractors are something else: I have seen 15 year olds driving Porsche “tractors” in Sweden.
They look similar but are very different. Moped cars have essentially lawn mower engines in them, 3-6 kW or something like that (the limit is 50 cc iirc). Kei cars have around 50 kW engines (with probably more than one cylinder), which is very much "real car" territory.
Moped cars can be 500cc and some models are sold in other countries limited to 80kph.
They remind me of kei cars. They aren’t kei cars. The biggest difference apart from two seats is noise; moped cars in Sweden have a weight limit of 350kg and there is zero sound proofing!
They remind me of kei cars. They aren’t kei cars. The biggest difference apart from two seats is noise; moped cars in Sweden have a weight limit of 350kg and there is zero sound proofing!
I don't agree that they are in any way related. It's like saying a SUV is like a real truck. Sure if the SUV is big and the truck is tiny. Those "moped cars" are more closely related to a bicycle than a car.
When I went to Japan I knew the cliche that everything is miniaturised - but it really is! They even have 2/3 size 4x4s with the tyre on the back but the size of a VW golf. Wish they sold them in Europe
They sorta do. Suzuki have one (Jimny?). Lada have some really good ones for what it is. They can beat the shit out of most US SUVs in most terrain and are absolutely hilarious!
Gonna check those out!
The Suzuki Jimny isn't really all that rare in the Nordic countries. I think I've seen several in more southerly parts of Europe too, but I may be misremembering.
How does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy compare to those ? Why is it not exported to Japan as a keicar ?
Something like double the width and 5-10x horsepower.
Also can't quite remember but there was something that made Twizy don't qualify as anything. Nissan ran a car sharing "experiment" using Twizy but exemptions had to be made to get plates.
Also can't quite remember but there was something that made Twizy don't qualify as anything. Nissan ran a car sharing "experiment" using Twizy but exemptions had to be made to get plates.
This is in fact a kei car (or a mini car, AFAICT that category doesn't exist yet) if you decide to register it in Japan.
Kei car means: 660 cc engine or less (most likely moot if it's an EV), length 3.4 m or less, width 1.48 m or less, up to 4 passengers, up to 350 kg carrying capacity.
This article shows someone who has one, and note that the license plate is yellow, which means kei car.
https://www.jevc.gr.jp/%E8%88%98%E5%86%85%E7%AB%AF%E3%81%AE%...
Kei car means: 660 cc engine or less (most likely moot if it's an EV), length 3.4 m or less, width 1.48 m or less, up to 4 passengers, up to 350 kg carrying capacity.
This article shows someone who has one, and note that the license plate is yellow, which means kei car.
https://www.jevc.gr.jp/%E8%88%98%E5%86%85%E7%AB%AF%E3%81%AE%...
Finally found a source! Nissan NMC product page states as below. I still can't remember why it can't be Kei registered but the consensus is it doesn't belong to any class and can't be registered outside of some special terms. That car in that article is also Nissan badged so must be under the same waiver.
> Others: Release schedule and price, as well as vehicle class, license and taxes to be applied remain undecided.
> Q:Where can I buy the vehicle?
> A:The vehicle is not on sale for now. Since the current Road Trucking Vehicle Law bans this vehicle from running on public roads, its test runs in Japan are being conducted with the special permission from MLIT under the scheme of allowing experiments of ultra-compact mobility. Whether the vehicle will be released for sale or not is still unknown.
> Q: The vehicle is said not to be allowed to run on a public road because it's over the spec of the already-defined motorized two-wheeled vehicle therefore no existing vehicle category to apply. What exactly is over the spec?
> A:Under the Road Traffic Act, vehicles that are categorized as the Class-1 Motorized Four-wheeled Bicycle are stipulated to have the rated output of "0.6kW or less" and to be a single-seater. This model’s rated output is 8kW and two-seater (front-back).
1: https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/ZEROEMISSION/APPROACH/NEWMO...
> Others: Release schedule and price, as well as vehicle class, license and taxes to be applied remain undecided.
> Q:Where can I buy the vehicle?
> A:The vehicle is not on sale for now. Since the current Road Trucking Vehicle Law bans this vehicle from running on public roads, its test runs in Japan are being conducted with the special permission from MLIT under the scheme of allowing experiments of ultra-compact mobility. Whether the vehicle will be released for sale or not is still unknown.
> Q: The vehicle is said not to be allowed to run on a public road because it's over the spec of the already-defined motorized two-wheeled vehicle therefore no existing vehicle category to apply. What exactly is over the spec?
> A:Under the Road Traffic Act, vehicles that are categorized as the Class-1 Motorized Four-wheeled Bicycle are stipulated to have the rated output of "0.6kW or less" and to be a single-seater. This model’s rated output is 8kW and two-seater (front-back).
1: https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/ZEROEMISSION/APPROACH/NEWMO...
That’s not really a car at all; it wouldn’t quite fit the category. That said, they seem to be available in Japan.
No mention of very similar (formerly) Eastern German Multicar [1], staple of road and park maintenance crews anywhere in Central and Eastern Europe.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicar
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicar
I could not find a nice summary article in English so had not posted this, but there is a recently published patent from Daihatsu showing a Kei EV[1].
The claim is that the power electronics modules stacked vertically allows shorter cables to be used, but what I think is interesting is the drawings of a ladder frame car with transmission shaped drive unit and battery pack suspended between frames. A typical Kei delivery van body sits atop all. This looks more optimized for lightweight FF/MF city cars, than other setups like skateboard architectures used in FR EVs or fuel tank shaped batteries in compliance EVs.
1: https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/c1800/PU/JP-2021-115916/81...
The claim is that the power electronics modules stacked vertically allows shorter cables to be used, but what I think is interesting is the drawings of a ladder frame car with transmission shaped drive unit and battery pack suspended between frames. A typical Kei delivery van body sits atop all. This looks more optimized for lightweight FF/MF city cars, than other setups like skateboard architectures used in FR EVs or fuel tank shaped batteries in compliance EVs.
1: https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/c1800/PU/JP-2021-115916/81...
I believe it's mostly for very low voltage batteries, otherwise the cable length shouldn't be that much of a problem.
I believe it makes a lot of sense to invert the structure, and place motor behind because they have a solid axle already, and prevent it becoming too rear heavy given it's a cargo van.
I also can't really imagine how power electronics, moreover for such a small car can get so big.
I believe it makes a lot of sense to invert the structure, and place motor behind because they have a solid axle already, and prevent it becoming too rear heavy given it's a cargo van.
I also can't really imagine how power electronics, moreover for such a small car can get so big.
Patent claims are clear as Soviet era Sci-Fi films so that's not worth discussing IMO. What I found interesting is this is a preview of 1st-gen purpose built Kei EV platform and that it has motor compartment directly below the seats.
For your second and third point, this is for small, cost efficient delivery vehicles. Consolidating as much active components into an "engine room" and close to driver's seat is likely given higher priority than pursuing driving dynamics. Like if they could cut the cost for brake lights by replacing them with plastic light guides they absolutely will.
For your second and third point, this is for small, cost efficient delivery vehicles. Consolidating as much active components into an "engine room" and close to driver's seat is likely given higher priority than pursuing driving dynamics. Like if they could cut the cost for brake lights by replacing them with plastic light guides they absolutely will.
They already get a consolidated electronics block on the rear of a vehicle. Sometimes battery, vfd, and motor in one large sealed casing.
FWD EV can't be cheaper than RWD one just for the part count.
FWD EV can't be cheaper than RWD one just for the part count.
I live in Tokyo and drive an old kei car.
Despite being not very powerful, it does provide me whatever I need. Driving it on highway (about 100km/h) feels alright, of course it’s not as quiet or comfortable as bigger cars, but not unacceptable. I am sure newer models are much improved.
Many car parks here have height/size limit, or even kei-car-only space, and it’s just easier to park even for regular places.
I find myself feeling more responsible by driving a small car, when I stop at the side of a road, it occupies at most half of the lane, so another kei car can bypass easily. Maybe it’s a Japanese thing, but unlike SUV’s “getting higher up to see more”, I am more like “I am as small as everyone else so I don’t block people’s view”.
Kei cars would be great in America and I would fully accept laws supporting them as an effort to reduce dependence on big consumptive engines in our transition to electric mobility.
One can dream.
One can dream.
Can Kei Cars meet the USA's collision safety requirements although? Part of the reason why cars are beefier is collision safety regulations.
Kei cars don't have the crash safety required for US roads, speeds and the traffic they need to share the roads with. A crash between a Kei and a US truck at 55 mph would be a bloodbath.
Keis work in Japan because the average speed is much lower and you're more likely to get into an accident with another kei.
Keis work in Japan because the average speed is much lower and you're more likely to get into an accident with another kei.
I see a lot of people making the argument of “a bigger car is safer when crashing with other cars”, but that’s not very sustainable when everybody thinks the same. A US truck is small when everyone is driving a monster truck to protect themselves from “normal” trucks
Kei cars are death traps and I don't think the US would accept going back to gruesome, brutal car wrecks as the norm.
as far as big consumptive engines, Kei Cars consume around 3-4 Liters/100km
a prius is not that much worse at 4.4 L/100km
It's all kind of moot anyway with EVs coming.
as far as big consumptive engines, Kei Cars consume around 3-4 Liters/100km
a prius is not that much worse at 4.4 L/100km
It's all kind of moot anyway with EVs coming.
Better mileage than a Prius without even being a hybrid seems like exactly the sort of reason why someone would want one. And with EVs coming, kei cars/trucks seem like perfect candidates for EV conversions.
Re: crash safety, I wonder if it's possible to retrofit some extra safety measures on these things?
Re: crash safety, I wonder if it's possible to retrofit some extra safety measures on these things?
>Re: crash safety, I wonder if it's possible to retrofit some extra safety measures on these things?
That's a good question for any older car. I can think of a number of measures, but it would be interesting to see some real engineering go into retrofits. Besides new/proper seat belts an interesting angle would be a partial roll cage that is safe for a helmetless driver.
I'd love to a have a Kei truck purely for around town (we don't have any traffic lights to give you an idea) in snowy weather. Small = good when the streets shrink due to plowing, small = good for dragging out of a ditch, cheap = good just because it's easy to hurt a car in serious snow.
That's a good question for any older car. I can think of a number of measures, but it would be interesting to see some real engineering go into retrofits. Besides new/proper seat belts an interesting angle would be a partial roll cage that is safe for a helmetless driver.
I'd love to a have a Kei truck purely for around town (we don't have any traffic lights to give you an idea) in snowy weather. Small = good when the streets shrink due to plowing, small = good for dragging out of a ditch, cheap = good just because it's easy to hurt a car in serious snow.
> Re: crash safety, I wonder if it's possible to retrofit some extra safety measures on these things?
Mass and/or crumple zones help absorb and deflect energy in crashes. There's no room for a crumple zone in a kei car's perimeter. Smart Fourtwo got close, but those are as wide as a normal car.
And perfectly rigid vehicle is dangerous because it transmits the collision forces to the passengers - high G deceleration will destroy your organs
Mass and/or crumple zones help absorb and deflect energy in crashes. There's no room for a crumple zone in a kei car's perimeter. Smart Fourtwo got close, but those are as wide as a normal car.
And perfectly rigid vehicle is dangerous because it transmits the collision forces to the passengers - high G deceleration will destroy your organs
> And with EVs coming, kei cars/trucks seem like perfect candidates for EV conversions.
Is there enough room for batteries for them to have a reasonable amount of range?
Is there enough room for batteries for them to have a reasonable amount of range?
Best selling kei cars are like Honda N-BOX and Suzuki Spacia, both are called "super height wagon", near 1800mm height (higher than RAV4) and eyepoint is also higher than sedans. So it blocks some people's view, but not annoying thanks to very narrow 1475mm width.
I have a Suzuki Palette kei minivan and I love it. It cost $8000 and I've driven it for nine years and it has never broken down. It has tall ceilings and huge windows and it seats four. I can fold down the back seats and haul sofas and refrigerators. It has continuous variable automatic transmission and gets 40 miles/gallon in the city. It has decent acceleration when fully loaded going uphill in a headwind at freeway speeds. It's only sold inside Japan.
Reminded me of the 80s "K-car" [0]. They were everywhere, man.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_platform
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_platform
Kei Cars have been available and street-legal in the Canadian province of British Columbia for many years. The catch is that while you can get plates and insurance for your Kei Car (or truck) you will never get a dime of coverage in a collision. Kei Cars are dirt cheap, but they are throw-away vehicles, so to speak. Service? Lots of Asian-owned garages in the Vancouver area mean there are plenty of mechanics with Kei Car experience. Parts? Good luck with that. Travel? Very local, and don't even bother trying to cross the U.S. border with one.
I've always wanted a kei truck since I first saw one in a movie in the 1980s. They seem to be legal here in the UK, where I've recently relocated from America, so getting one might be in the cards some day, when we're not living in the London burbs with no parking.
I had a 96 Toyota T-100 4WD in Vegas and I loved it. Used to carry a shit ton of wood and building materials with it, and I built a small shelving and storage unit inside the camper shell with a 5gal water tank and a small DIY swamp cooler that ran off a 5v USB fan and water pump powered off a solar charger and battery pack that could keep the temperature down to survivable in there even in the Mojave summer. I used to take her out to BLM land and camp happily in the deep desert.
I do wonder about trying to fit my 6'3" gigantor Texan ass in one of these though.
I had a 96 Toyota T-100 4WD in Vegas and I loved it. Used to carry a shit ton of wood and building materials with it, and I built a small shelving and storage unit inside the camper shell with a 5gal water tank and a small DIY swamp cooler that ran off a 5v USB fan and water pump powered off a solar charger and battery pack that could keep the temperature down to survivable in there even in the Mojave summer. I used to take her out to BLM land and camp happily in the deep desert.
I do wonder about trying to fit my 6'3" gigantor Texan ass in one of these though.
I had one of these (a Daihatsu 'Copen' 1st gen), great fun on the road but you really feel a bit fragile in traffic, especially when navigating in and out of streams of longhaul rigs. Great fuel economy and incredible handling, if I could get another one I probably would but Daihatsu pulled out of Europe and that left me with a pretty bad taste.
In Hawaii we have quite a few of them around, mainly Honda Acty and Suzuki Carry trucks, with the occasional kei van too. They are adorable and perfect for putting people and surfboards in the back.
On the other side of spectrum, we also have lots of huge lifted trucks ("want ride in lifted yota?"), but usually those are more country side. Closer to town, more kei cars.
On the other side of spectrum, we also have lots of huge lifted trucks ("want ride in lifted yota?"), but usually those are more country side. Closer to town, more kei cars.
Doug DeMuro just reviewed an Autozam AZ-1, which is a supercar-styled Kei car by Mazda produced under its Autozam brand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-Z5FHXcBA
If you want an NSFW review of the AZ-1 RCR reviewed it a few years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVy1ciP_ik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-Z5FHXcBA
If you want an NSFW review of the AZ-1 RCR reviewed it a few years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVy1ciP_ik
Regular Car Reviews have showcased several of these:
- 1993 Suzuki Cappuccino Limited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtWUbEvapRM
- 1991 Honda Beat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_EfLbWlZn4
- 1992 Mazda Autozam AZ-1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVy1ciP_ik
- 1988 Honda Acty Street Kei Van: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_T4Lr0uu8
Warning: this channel has a puerile sense of humor. Probably NSFW.
- 1993 Suzuki Cappuccino Limited: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtWUbEvapRM
- 1991 Honda Beat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_EfLbWlZn4
- 1992 Mazda Autozam AZ-1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBVy1ciP_ik
- 1988 Honda Acty Street Kei Van: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL_T4Lr0uu8
Warning: this channel has a puerile sense of humor. Probably NSFW.
Doug DeMuro also did a video on the Autozam AZ-1 (the coolest of all Kei cars?), just the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn-Z5FHXcBA
I live in Japan, and have a Kei. Honestly: they're wonderful. I'm importing at least one when I head back to the US.
It reminds me a lot of my first car, an early-80's Honda. Tiny engine, almost nothing in the way of luxuries. Basically no sound deadening, and it uses my knees as its front crumple zone.
On the flip side, this thing has the best visibility of any car I've ever driven. Old-school low beltline, and the front of the car is maybe two feet in front of my driving position?
Yes, it's box on wheels, but it's a great box on wheels.
Really does make me sad that heavy regulation (nominally at the behest of the US auto industry) and "cash for clunkers" has driven these out of the market in the US.
It reminds me a lot of my first car, an early-80's Honda. Tiny engine, almost nothing in the way of luxuries. Basically no sound deadening, and it uses my knees as its front crumple zone.
On the flip side, this thing has the best visibility of any car I've ever driven. Old-school low beltline, and the front of the car is maybe two feet in front of my driving position?
Yes, it's box on wheels, but it's a great box on wheels.
Really does make me sad that heavy regulation (nominally at the behest of the US auto industry) and "cash for clunkers" has driven these out of the market in the US.
I kind of wanted a Honda City ever since I had a plastic model kit of it in the 90s.
However, the ones I see for sale seem to generally be collectors items that come with a scooter.
My first car was a Honda Civic hatchback, not a kei car, but it was <2100 lbs and I noticed once that there was no structure whatsoever adjacent to the rear seats; it was just a cookie-sheet's thickness of sheet metal painted on the outside, a thin bar for mounting the speaker and a plastic cover.
However, the ones I see for sale seem to generally be collectors items that come with a scooter.
My first car was a Honda Civic hatchback, not a kei car, but it was <2100 lbs and I noticed once that there was no structure whatsoever adjacent to the rear seats; it was just a cookie-sheet's thickness of sheet metal painted on the outside, a thin bar for mounting the speaker and a plastic cover.
Which one do you have?
The problem is that by the time they're imported and everything else they end up being at least $10k CAD for a 20+ year old vehicle.
I don't want a big pickup truck. They're too big and not as practical. None of the domestic manufacturers make anything reasonably sized. In the 90s my parents got my sister and I a crappy old 84 Ford Ranger and that was totally fine. Nothing that small exists anymore. The new Ford Ranger is a truckosaurus like everything else.
I wish the North American appetite for Canyonero(tm) would stop already.