R/Antiwork(old.reddit.com)
old.reddit.com
R/Antiwork
https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/
33 comments
"But another part of me isn't okay with a world in which the vast majority of people do nothing (or do something that doesn't really produce value) while forcing higher-income people (like many of us, myself included) to fund that lifestyle."
But I feel it is the other way around really. Low income people support the lifestyle of all us "highly educated".
I feel the biggest amount of us programmers / managers are really creating little value, but are nonetheless rewarded by a vast institution of governments and corporations.
But I feel it is the other way around really. Low income people support the lifestyle of all us "highly educated".
I feel the biggest amount of us programmers / managers are really creating little value, but are nonetheless rewarded by a vast institution of governments and corporations.
>But another part of me isn't okay with a world in which the vast majority of people do nothing (or do something that doesn't really produce value) while forcing higher-income people (like many of us, myself included) to fund that lifestyle.
You're talking about the owner class here, right? Not the working class?
You're talking about the owner class here, right? Not the working class?
>But another part of me isn't okay with a world in which the vast majority of people do nothing (or do something that doesn't really produce value) while forcing higher-income people (like many of us, myself included) to fund that lifestyle.
You fundamentally misunderstand the subreddit if you think this is about weflare.
This is about being paid your value, being treated fairly and upholding your rights. The subreddit is more capitalist than most American companies these days that instead of actually paying higher wages to find labor, are actively trying to undermine it instead.
You fundamentally misunderstand the subreddit if you think this is about weflare.
This is about being paid your value, being treated fairly and upholding your rights. The subreddit is more capitalist than most American companies these days that instead of actually paying higher wages to find labor, are actively trying to undermine it instead.
>But another part of me isn't okay with a world in which the vast majority of people do nothing (or do something that doesn't really produce value) while forcing higher-income people (like many of us, myself included) to fund that lifestyle.
But in this hypothetical welfare future, nobody forces you. You're free to collect your check and do nothing, like everyone else. Your reward for contributing value is, as you say, higher income. That seems perfectly fair to me.
But in this hypothetical welfare future, nobody forces you. You're free to collect your check and do nothing, like everyone else. Your reward for contributing value is, as you say, higher income. That seems perfectly fair to me.
I wish it were easier to just contribute to projects that help humanity instead of 99% of my employment opportunities being to spend 60hrs/week inventing new ways to help my boss become a gatekeeper/middleman.
And if enough farmers decide they want to just collect their check, either someone is going to need to be forced or we all starve.
I’m all for the nobody-needs-to-work future, but we’re not going to get there without Star Trek style energy and replicators.
I’m all for the nobody-needs-to-work future, but we’re not going to get there without Star Trek style energy and replicators.
Why is stick more important than carrot? Make the pay high enough and people will do anything.
> But another part of me isn't okay with a world in which the vast majority of people do nothing (or do something that doesn't really produce value) while forcing higher-income people (like many of us, myself included) to fund that lifestyle.
Agreed, which is why a lot of us minimum wage workers criticize people like Elon Musk who spend 40 hrs on Twitter and going to fancy dinners or SNL or whatever while claiming he works 80 hrs a week.
It would be great if we weren't all forced to work to subsidize their hedonistic lifestyles.
Agreed, which is why a lot of us minimum wage workers criticize people like Elon Musk who spend 40 hrs on Twitter and going to fancy dinners or SNL or whatever while claiming he works 80 hrs a week.
It would be great if we weren't all forced to work to subsidize their hedonistic lifestyles.
I've been periodically checking in on /r/antiwork for a long time, starting well before the pandemic. There's definitely been a change in the energy there since the pandemic started. It's a lot more action-y feeling now, whereas I remember it more as being a lot less receptive to the idea that change is possible.
At the same time, it feels less genuine to me. There's a good reason that there are memes going around making fun of how absurd some of the text exchanges posted there are. I'm really curious to see what the sub looks like in a year.
What the sub is: Teenagers who work in the service industry posting fake "I quit" texts and mix that with a fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism, failing to understand value generation, and labeling any semblance of "work hard to make money" as 'survivorship bias'.
What the sub should be: Critiquing the current model of capitalism that's oppressive to the working class and supporting career moves away from toxic work industries/companies.
What the sub should be: Critiquing the current model of capitalism that's oppressive to the working class and supporting career moves away from toxic work industries/companies.
Unfortunately not everyone has the talent to become software engineers. On the other hand, if you are a software engineer who is underpaid because you chose to work in a passion industry like gaming or aerospace, then you only have yourself to blame.
Software engineering doesn't require talent any more than learning calculus requires talent. We aren't that special or gifted imo.
Not only that, software engineering isn't the only path to financial success (though it is fairly stable and future-proof).
Not only that, software engineering isn't the only path to financial success (though it is fairly stable and future-proof).
Let me preface by saying I don't think software engineering requires talent per se, but it absolutely does require being able to think abstractly/logically about problems and a certain level of intellect. From my experience in upper-division university courses, less than a quarter of the students are capable of this.
Being a code-monkey is trivial, being able to design the optimal solution for any given problem is a talent. University programs are increasingly shifting towards a bootcamp style curriculum rather than focusing on the science of CS.
Being a code-monkey is trivial, being able to design the optimal solution for any given problem is a talent. University programs are increasingly shifting towards a bootcamp style curriculum rather than focusing on the science of CS.
I 100% agree that software engineers are not special. But they are specialized. And getting to that point of specialization takes a combination of inclination, opportunity and, yes, some aptitude that not everyone has. My wife is brilliant at her job. She used to be a passable software engineer and hated it. Now she does something equally lucrative and competitive and is much better at it than I could ever be.
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> Software engineering doesn't require talent any more than learning calculus requires talent. We aren't that special or gifted imo.
Derailing a bit here, but I don't think this is true, and I think it's an example of a part of Dunning-Kruger that is often forgotten - Highly competent people underestimate their competence and incorrectly presume others find a task just as easy as they do.
There are a lot of people that struggle with algebra. They could never learn calculus without putting in a ridiculous amount of time into studying it.
What makes software engineering different is that it requires abstract thinking, something not everyone has. You have to be able to understand how to break a problem down into tiny steps and be able to express those steps in a language that a compiler or interpreter will understand. And even with training, we get people that can't FizzBuzz.
Derailing a bit here, but I don't think this is true, and I think it's an example of a part of Dunning-Kruger that is often forgotten - Highly competent people underestimate their competence and incorrectly presume others find a task just as easy as they do.
There are a lot of people that struggle with algebra. They could never learn calculus without putting in a ridiculous amount of time into studying it.
What makes software engineering different is that it requires abstract thinking, something not everyone has. You have to be able to understand how to break a problem down into tiny steps and be able to express those steps in a language that a compiler or interpreter will understand. And even with training, we get people that can't FizzBuzz.
> fake "I quit" texts
Yeah, if I was a gambling man, I'd wager that at least 50% of the posts are fake, with the most upvoted posts the ones most likely to be fake, because they're too perfect.
> a fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism
No, they understand capitalism. And because they understand it, they hate it.
Capitalism prioritizes absolutely one thing and one thing only: Profit. Corporations will typically only do the "right thing" as much as they have to in order to preserve profits.
It is easy to find replacements for workers in the service industry, so it is more profitable to treat them like shit and replace them when they get sick of it and quit than to treat them well with a living wage and paid sick days.
> failing to understand value generation
By "value generation", do you mean the utterly wrong belief that your wage is in any way determined by the revenue you generate?
Yeah, if I was a gambling man, I'd wager that at least 50% of the posts are fake, with the most upvoted posts the ones most likely to be fake, because they're too perfect.
> a fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism
No, they understand capitalism. And because they understand it, they hate it.
Capitalism prioritizes absolutely one thing and one thing only: Profit. Corporations will typically only do the "right thing" as much as they have to in order to preserve profits.
It is easy to find replacements for workers in the service industry, so it is more profitable to treat them like shit and replace them when they get sick of it and quit than to treat them well with a living wage and paid sick days.
> failing to understand value generation
By "value generation", do you mean the utterly wrong belief that your wage is in any way determined by the revenue you generate?
Hear hear!
many adults feel this way as well
There are adults on Reddit, but the vast vast VAST majority are children/teens - as it should be.
I'm only on there because I have an addiction, but I can't remember the last time it has had a meaningful impact on my life. I don't use facebook, but I honestly think Reddit is more toxic, overall. I can't remember the last time I felt reading it had some sort of value. Probably when r/athiesm was on the front page, back when the site as a whole was trying to have meaning. Now it's just a den of teenagers screaming at themselves and their parents.
I'm only on there because I have an addiction, but I can't remember the last time it has had a meaningful impact on my life. I don't use facebook, but I honestly think Reddit is more toxic, overall. I can't remember the last time I felt reading it had some sort of value. Probably when r/athiesm was on the front page, back when the site as a whole was trying to have meaning. Now it's just a den of teenagers screaming at themselves and their parents.
The irony here is that r/athiesm is super toxic community and was removed from the front page (when such a thing existed) because it was toxic.
There several subreddits with huge value, the Linux gaming, Linux hardware, Linux help, the rust programming etc etc. Local communities I'm involved in such as helping folks with shelter and food.
To be honest I find these comments which way X is fully of children or teens oddly offensive. It's dismissive of not only the reality but people's efforts.
There several subreddits with huge value, the Linux gaming, Linux hardware, Linux help, the rust programming etc etc. Local communities I'm involved in such as helping folks with shelter and food.
To be honest I find these comments which way X is fully of children or teens oddly offensive. It's dismissive of not only the reality but people's efforts.
Maybe not so much[1]
[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1125159/reddit-us-app-us...
[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1125159/reddit-us-app-us...
IDK, I get a lot of fulfillment out of the work that I do. The terms of my employment are between me and my employer, and if I don't like those terms I have a skillset that allows me to go elsewhere. Maybe instead of complaining about things they should work to fix the underlying issue.
> if I don't like those terms I have a skillset that allows me to go elsewhere.
...did you visit the sub? That's exactly what the people in that sub are doing.
> Maybe instead of complaining about things they should work to fix the underlying issue.
The "underlying issue" is that low-wage jobs frequently have abusive managers. But since the jobs are unskilled, it's easy to find replacements when someone gets sick of the abuse and quits.
Because they're easily replaced, they have zero leverage of fixing the abuse. At best, they'll quit, get replaced, and the new employee will be treated just as poorly as the old one.
...did you visit the sub? That's exactly what the people in that sub are doing.
> Maybe instead of complaining about things they should work to fix the underlying issue.
The "underlying issue" is that low-wage jobs frequently have abusive managers. But since the jobs are unskilled, it's easy to find replacements when someone gets sick of the abuse and quits.
Because they're easily replaced, they have zero leverage of fixing the abuse. At best, they'll quit, get replaced, and the new employee will be treated just as poorly as the old one.
Yeah I get it. And had my share of it too. While working through college I had a manager working in a warehouse that was eventually fired and brought up on charges for assault. I’ve quit jobs too because of poor working conditions. But a lot of them also complain about being trapped in retail/service industry level jobs. My point was that they should get out of there. Those are low skill jobs that will be soon replaced by automation anyway. There’s better out there, and it just takes a willingness and a good work ethic to escape it.
I guess I’m not sure what you do, but there is a massive difference between the quality of life at our work in tech and the work people talk about on antiwork.
> if I don’t like those terms… I go elsewhere
This is basically the whole point of the subreddit, people quitting their jobs when companies do very shitty things. It is about people taking action.
> if I don’t like those terms… I go elsewhere
This is basically the whole point of the subreddit, people quitting their jobs when companies do very shitty things. It is about people taking action.
I think it should be obvious the sentiment expressed in antiwork is far from the mindset of those on HN. HN is specifically a community who mostly by choice spend their time in their career, and exploring concepts central to the skills which happen to be required to find success in their career. Modern stem is not for the uninterested. However it is important to understand that there is so much godamn meaningless and overtly superfluous work being done. The point of massive periods of invention and artificial evolution throughout human history I HAVE to believe have been centered around being able to “work” less. When people started using pulleys to build large works, I doubt the mindset was oh now I can build many more large works, as opposed to now I can accomplish building in far less time with far less effort. We create and innovate so that we may have recreational time. Yes for the HN community this is redundant, as a large number of us would like to be entrepreneurs or coding the day away for the inherent value that solving problems brings. But this is not necessarily a superior mindset to those whose recreation and leisure time does not inherently “produce”.
> the inherent value that solving problems brings...is not necessarily a superior mindset to those whose recreation and leisure time does not inherently “produce”.
Is not a positive effect on the world superior to no effect on the world?
Is not a positive effect on the world superior to no effect on the world?
what's the comment here? sharing random link (use reddit.com not old, ppl who use that can do on own) without any insight isn't so helpful
also just recently submitted a few weeks ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28966865
Another subreddit that's trending these days: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/
I created a post about making time for side projects some time ago (link: https://old.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/piioin/how...)
Some of the top rated comments as of 2021-11-02:
- "I don't do side projects. Once I started working professionally, they stopped"
- "I don't. I code enough during work hours."
- "I try to support anti work activism so that someday people can spend their life on the things they feel are important in the world and not forced to sell most of their best years."
Lots of posts there had this sort of vibe.
Part of me feels bad that so many people hate their jobs (or work in places that treat their employees like dirt). It's really hard to talk about work (even when going through a rough patch) amongst others since I really like what I do.
But another part of me isn't okay with a world in which the vast majority of people do nothing (or do something that doesn't really produce value) while forcing higher-income people (like many of us, myself included) to fund that lifestyle.