Twitter’s ongoing cruel treatment of software engineers(blog.pragmaticengineer.com)
blog.pragmaticengineer.com
Twitter’s ongoing cruel treatment of software engineers
https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/twitter-cruel-treatment-of-software-engineers/
131 comments
My guess is it doesn't have much to do with code reviews and more to do with firing people for other reasons that are not legally allowed: older workers, wants to work remotely, HAS to work remotely because they moved assuming "remote forever" was a promise, takes a lot of sick leave, currently on some kind of leave, no code to submit because a project is not yet at the coding stage, etc. Code review sounds like a good cover for firing SWEs.
I guess you’re spot on: https://twitter.com/nabokov7/status/1595671974616997888
Imagine being him and sitting in his little billionaire playpen and having the choice of playing with the car thing, the space rocket thing, or the website thing and picking option 3.
Literal space rockets. You couldn't tear me away from Starbase Texas.
Literal space rockets. You couldn't tear me away from Starbase Texas.
He did just spend $44 billion to acquire "the website thing", most of which were leveraged loans using his wealth as collateral. So some heightened attention is a given, just not this type of micromanagement when it's clearly wreaking havoc in the foreseeable short term.
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If you were him, would you not focus your time on making sure what you just bought will become even more successful and be what you envisioned it to be when you bought it? Of course, one might argue against buying Twitter in the first place, but that’s done. What makes you think that SpaceX and Tesla aren’t already in good hands?
SpaceX and Tesla are in much better hands right now, since Musk's attention is on Twitter.
bizarre is the right word.
Musk's actions are so bizarre and inefficient. He could have used perf review...
Musk's actions are so bizarre and inefficient. He could have used perf review...
[deleted]
Consider he probably considered whether it's worth his time and arrived at a different conclusion. Giving his track record that's at the very least interesting.
kodyo(1)
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This is the strategy of someone who is aware of an internal cultural problem at Twitter.
You can blame pointy haired PMs, activist community managers, leetcode and Foosball engineers, or whoever you want for the situation.
To Musk its all the same, over 50% of the workforce was actively hostile to Musk for being Musk, and at least 25% was actively engaged in sacrificing the business to pursue personal or political agendas.
This would be fine if Twitter were a cash cow posting record profits, but it wasn't.
The strategy Musk is performing is to create as much chaos as possible to shake out as many of those groups as possible, and hire back anyone caught in the crossfire.
I've never seen a CEO attempt this at this scale, but at my last company there was an employee like above in a top position - and in order to get rid of the people under his influence the only solution was to can the whole division.
You can blame pointy haired PMs, activist community managers, leetcode and Foosball engineers, or whoever you want for the situation.
To Musk its all the same, over 50% of the workforce was actively hostile to Musk for being Musk, and at least 25% was actively engaged in sacrificing the business to pursue personal or political agendas.
This would be fine if Twitter were a cash cow posting record profits, but it wasn't.
The strategy Musk is performing is to create as much chaos as possible to shake out as many of those groups as possible, and hire back anyone caught in the crossfire.
I've never seen a CEO attempt this at this scale, but at my last company there was an employee like above in a top position - and in order to get rid of the people under his influence the only solution was to can the whole division.
This 4d chess thing is getting old. He's just a terrible boss doing what terrible bosses do all the time, fire people at whim, decide product direction is a feelings thing that only he is capable of doing, ignores and reject any competence that threats his image and position, etc.
> hire back anyone caught in the crossfire.
Who would agree to be hired back without extracting serious risk premiums from Twitter? If I had taken the 3 month severance and am seeing the ongoing chaos, the only way I’d agree to go back is as a contractor for $2000/hr with a $1M retainer with no clawback.
Who would agree to be hired back without extracting serious risk premiums from Twitter? If I had taken the 3 month severance and am seeing the ongoing chaos, the only way I’d agree to go back is as a contractor for $2000/hr with a $1M retainer with no clawback.
Depends on the environment, in the tech world of six months ago I'd have no problem signing back on for a few tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
The risk of losing your job however, carries a greater premium today than it did six months ago.
I don't know if 100k retention grants are good enough, but they're going to be good enough for some people.
The risk of losing your job however, carries a greater premium today than it did six months ago.
I don't know if 100k retention grants are good enough, but they're going to be good enough for some people.
What kind of grant though? There's no more public shares, it's all private, whatever grant you get from stocks is basically worthless as it would require the private owners to agree to buy them.
A lump sum of US$ 100k as a retainer doesn't sound like a great deal after you've been through all these shenanigans. Some more desperate workers might take it just to get anything but those won't be the most motivated workers you'll get. The good ones will find better pastures, or just go back to extract more money out while looking for something better because they know there's no mutual trust anymore.
I feel like a lot of people trying to defend Musk's actions are treating people like they were logical machines. That their psychological safety doesn't matter if they're paid enough, they'll just accept the payment and work as usual, that's not how humans work...
A lump sum of US$ 100k as a retainer doesn't sound like a great deal after you've been through all these shenanigans. Some more desperate workers might take it just to get anything but those won't be the most motivated workers you'll get. The good ones will find better pastures, or just go back to extract more money out while looking for something better because they know there's no mutual trust anymore.
I feel like a lot of people trying to defend Musk's actions are treating people like they were logical machines. That their psychological safety doesn't matter if they're paid enough, they'll just accept the payment and work as usual, that's not how humans work...
I mean, the guy who told us all to "vote Republican" just a few days ago has zero agendas, amiright.
Musk is not creating chaos on purpose [eye roll] - he does not know how to be a manager in a situation that is not a crisis dialed to 11 at ALL times.
Everything has to be a hair-on-fire-level crisis, to stress the minions and get them moving, except we see how that strategy is burning him out.
He's always been like that, we just never called it because "you can't argue with success", but you can definitely argue with failure.
Musk is not creating chaos on purpose [eye roll] - he does not know how to be a manager in a situation that is not a crisis dialed to 11 at ALL times.
Everything has to be a hair-on-fire-level crisis, to stress the minions and get them moving, except we see how that strategy is burning him out.
He's always been like that, we just never called it because "you can't argue with success", but you can definitely argue with failure.
“Pointy-haired PMs” is a good one. I have to use this.
In all honesty, this is just absurd, and is playing out like some bad movie plot. Next I expect Musk to fire more engineers without any severance at all, and force them to exit the building wearing one of those #GetWoke T-shirts he unearthed in a Twitter closet. He’ll then tweet out the video of the fired engineers exiting, and mock them with a Tweet like “Out with the old! Maybe you should go work at Grindr! LOL!”
In all honesty, this is just absurd, and is playing out like some bad movie plot. Next I expect Musk to fire more engineers without any severance at all, and force them to exit the building wearing one of those #GetWoke T-shirts he unearthed in a Twitter closet. He’ll then tweet out the video of the fired engineers exiting, and mock them with a Tweet like “Out with the old! Maybe you should go work at Grindr! LOL!”
Got a source on >=25% of Twitter's employees being "actively engaged in sacrificing the business to pursue personal or political agendas"?
Censoring real news stories that look bad for particular political groups. The entire set of "fact checking" systems, adding NFTs because someone thought it sounded cool. Being sued by the government for being an ISIS recruiting and messaging platform.
All of these pretty clearly indicate that no one was minding the store.
All of these pretty clearly indicate that no one was minding the store.
These are examples of behavior not sources for 25% of the workforce engaging in this behavior.
But I challenge you to a much easier task. Link to the government lawsuit that you claim has been issued to twitter for being an ISIS recruiting and messaging platform.
But I challenge you to a much easier task. Link to the government lawsuit that you claim has been issued to twitter for being an ISIS recruiting and messaging platform.
Honestly, It's surprising how someone who managed to get a car and rockets company up and running can cause so much chaos.
This looks so unprofessional, erratic and unnecessary even if you want to cut down headcount and have a political motivation behind the take over, that it shocks me, honestly.
I guess that when someone is that wealthy you can duck-tape mistakes with money and move on.
I've complained many times about the effects of the so called "woke" ideology has, particularly outside of the US, but I don't think this is the way to do it.
If EM thinks this is a way of helping free speech and turn the volume down on some deranged ideologies, I don't think this is moving towards that goal.
This looks so unprofessional, erratic and unnecessary even if you want to cut down headcount and have a political motivation behind the take over, that it shocks me, honestly.
I guess that when someone is that wealthy you can duck-tape mistakes with money and move on.
I've complained many times about the effects of the so called "woke" ideology has, particularly outside of the US, but I don't think this is the way to do it.
If EM thinks this is a way of helping free speech and turn the volume down on some deranged ideologies, I don't think this is moving towards that goal.
I am interested to know people's thoughts about Musk for those that have known him for a long time.
For example, I definitely always got the sense that pg had a negative assessment of him from some of pg's writings about PayPal's early days.
But I'll say I always admired Musk for his sheer tenacity and ability to work extremely hard (and his ability to convince other people to work extremely hard). I'd say my opinion about him started to change right when he started bizarrely libeling that guy in Thailand as "pedo-guy".
So I guess my question is whether he's always been a collosal asshole, or whether that just grew over time as his wealth and power removed any constraints on his ego.
For example, I definitely always got the sense that pg had a negative assessment of him from some of pg's writings about PayPal's early days.
But I'll say I always admired Musk for his sheer tenacity and ability to work extremely hard (and his ability to convince other people to work extremely hard). I'd say my opinion about him started to change right when he started bizarrely libeling that guy in Thailand as "pedo-guy".
So I guess my question is whether he's always been a collosal asshole, or whether that just grew over time as his wealth and power removed any constraints on his ego.
He's always been like this. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/business/elon-musk-interv...
A lot of people "work hard" but they do not work smart. Musk in an extreme version of this. Unless he is not working himself and everyone else into the ground, he is not content. Everything has to be a crisis, and if there isn't one, create it.
A lot of people "work hard" but they do not work smart. Musk in an extreme version of this. Unless he is not working himself and everyone else into the ground, he is not content. Everything has to be a crisis, and if there isn't one, create it.
Unless people close to him is willing to talk openly about it, I guess we'll never know.
He has to be good at something, maybe at taking bets and convincing people to give him money, like other HNr suggests. Who knows.
He has to be good at something, maybe at taking bets and convincing people to give him money, like other HNr suggests. Who knows.
> maybe at taking bets and convincing people to give him money, like other HNr suggests.
This line of thought always comes across as "ego defending rationalization" to me. That is, we don't like to believe that someone who is such an ass clown can be so successful, so we just chalk it up to his family's wealth or luck or something.
But it's clear to me from Musk's communications that:
1. He is extremely intelligent, at least in his ability to understand topics across a wide range of areas (business, technical, finance).
2. He is extremely driven. He could have easily put his feet up after PayPal but he chose to get involved in immensely difficult, grand projects.
3. He works extremely hard (at least when he isn't tweet trolling). I don't think anyone questions his long work hours and sleeping at the office during the Model 3 production ramp up.
4. At least until recently, he was able to get other extremely smart and driven people to follow his lead.
I guess it's really number 4 that seems like the biggest change in the past couple years in my opinion. I mean, I've got to believe a lot of smart people at Tesla and SpaceX are looking on thinking "WTF is Musk on??"
This line of thought always comes across as "ego defending rationalization" to me. That is, we don't like to believe that someone who is such an ass clown can be so successful, so we just chalk it up to his family's wealth or luck or something.
But it's clear to me from Musk's communications that:
1. He is extremely intelligent, at least in his ability to understand topics across a wide range of areas (business, technical, finance).
2. He is extremely driven. He could have easily put his feet up after PayPal but he chose to get involved in immensely difficult, grand projects.
3. He works extremely hard (at least when he isn't tweet trolling). I don't think anyone questions his long work hours and sleeping at the office during the Model 3 production ramp up.
4. At least until recently, he was able to get other extremely smart and driven people to follow his lead.
I guess it's really number 4 that seems like the biggest change in the past couple years in my opinion. I mean, I've got to believe a lot of smart people at Tesla and SpaceX are looking on thinking "WTF is Musk on??"
I'll give you 1* and 2. I have serious doubts about 3 (recently) considering he's the CEO of many companies, is constantly flying to non work related locations and tweet all the fucking time. Even if he is working extremely hard the output for any of the companies must be small, which given his track record on twitter might be the biggest benefit to his CEO career of all times.
The key is #4, I think he managed to have incredible challenges at his other companies that brought it people who knows not only how to perform the job very well but to manage him very well.
*I still have doubts about how much of his smarts is being smart or just sounding smart, he is certainly not dumb by any stretch.
The key is #4, I think he managed to have incredible challenges at his other companies that brought it people who knows not only how to perform the job very well but to manage him very well.
*I still have doubts about how much of his smarts is being smart or just sounding smart, he is certainly not dumb by any stretch.
It’s all fun and games until a US Federal judge forces you to buy Twitter
Not a US federal judge, it was a Delaware state judge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathaleen_McCormick
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathaleen_McCormick
In my experience, very intelligent people can fall into a trap where they're so used to being able to solve problems based on their initial assessment that their ability to actually dig in and solve more difficult problems analytically suffers. The classic example of this is the smart kid who breezes through school and then smacks into a wall when the curriculum gets difficult enough to actually require them to study and work hard.
Combine this with a lot of money and you end up with someone with both the inclination and ability to take risky major actions quickly, as well as the resources necessary to walk away from bad bets intact. Over time I think this would reward and encourage the growth of impulsive tendencies in a person. But what happens if that person takes a wild swing that fails in a way they can't get away from or buy their way out of? (Not to mention the compounding effect of any drugs they might be on.)
Combine this with a lot of money and you end up with someone with both the inclination and ability to take risky major actions quickly, as well as the resources necessary to walk away from bad bets intact. Over time I think this would reward and encourage the growth of impulsive tendencies in a person. But what happens if that person takes a wild swing that fails in a way they can't get away from or buy their way out of? (Not to mention the compounding effect of any drugs they might be on.)
>The classic example
There is also the Nobel disease.
There is also the Nobel disease.
> I definitely always got the sense that pg had a negative assessment of him
Perhaps in the past? But he seems favourably inclined these days.
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1592852796185128961
Perhaps in the past? But he seems favourably inclined these days.
https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1592852796185128961
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Ahh, thanks very much for the tweet, great info.
Let's be clear though, pg has a substantial financial incentive in Musk succeeding, given that he's a VC and less employees/worse paid employees leads to (at the margin) more money for him.
Don't get me wrong, lots of people are spouting off against Musk for various unrelated reasons, but pg is not a neutral character in this fight.
Don't get me wrong, lots of people are spouting off against Musk for various unrelated reasons, but pg is not a neutral character in this fight.
He didnt start Tesla, be bought them: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tesla,_Inc.
Similar story for pay pal.
Similar story for pay pal.
I think we all invested in him as he's nerdy and chasing moonshots. I bought TSLA stock at IPO and held through all the fail years. Musk enjoys unparalleled fandome and respect in many circles.
But of course, Elon thinks it's all him. He's a genius, a savior and nothing can come between his view of reality. Imo, Elon is past his expiry date. Time for capitalism to fix him
But of course, Elon thinks it's all him. He's a genius, a savior and nothing can come between his view of reality. Imo, Elon is past his expiry date. Time for capitalism to fix him
I think it would be fair to say he's able to see a bet that's worth calling early, and building hype for it.
Those two together means that the engineers who are similarly early, want to come work for you. In a world with no electric car market, if that's what you really want to work on, Tesla is a beacon to you.
It's served him well in several industries now, but I really don't see how that can apply to this new mission of trying to make something of a relevant-but-kinda-failing social network.
Those two together means that the engineers who are similarly early, want to come work for you. In a world with no electric car market, if that's what you really want to work on, Tesla is a beacon to you.
It's served him well in several industries now, but I really don't see how that can apply to this new mission of trying to make something of a relevant-but-kinda-failing social network.
Apparently he was managed by others at his other companies.
https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/1595319316249186304?...
https://twitter.com/rob_sheridan/status/1595319316249186304?...
Financial math is just arithmetic with a footnote about remembering to add a dozen zeroes.
Same as we were taught in school; keep the numbers you work with day to day by using a simple noticing.
Add 1 to 3.654 x 10^11, another billionaire appears!
Their wealth is mathematical inference. None of them have Scrooge McDuck Vaults full of real money.
Tangentially, Paul G Tweeted a few weeks ago about America being “fake”; American cheese was one thing he called out specifically. No one Tweeted back “billionaire wealth.” I had del’d my Twitter years ago, did not seem worth making a new one.
Same as we were taught in school; keep the numbers you work with day to day by using a simple noticing.
Add 1 to 3.654 x 10^11, another billionaire appears!
Their wealth is mathematical inference. None of them have Scrooge McDuck Vaults full of real money.
Tangentially, Paul G Tweeted a few weeks ago about America being “fake”; American cheese was one thing he called out specifically. No one Tweeted back “billionaire wealth.” I had del’d my Twitter years ago, did not seem worth making a new one.
Keep numbers you work with day to day simple by using a simpler notation, is what I meant to type. Thumb band aid is messing with autocorrect by creating the wrong string to begin with
I absolutely cannot understand why any engineer would chose to stay at Twitter with the way things are.
Visas like H-1B can be limiting career mobility until the employee gets a green card. Under H-1B quitting a job means committing to move back to your country in a month or so. It's traumatic.
Yeah, this is literally the only thing stopping me from taking a "hard judgement" position like "if you worked at Twitter after 2023 I have serious questions about your judgement and I probably won't hire you."
The way H1-B employees are treated is ignominious. It breaks my heart to think of the situation these poor people are in - and make no mistake: In their hearts they want to treat _you_ that way, too. Speak out about it while you can, because you're next.
The way H1-B employees are treated is ignominious. It breaks my heart to think of the situation these poor people are in - and make no mistake: In their hearts they want to treat _you_ that way, too. Speak out about it while you can, because you're next.
If I were H-1B I would stay, but only until I got a new job to sponsor me.
And I would be looking as hard as I could.
And I would be looking as hard as I could.
This is a completely valid perplexion. It's so bewildering, right?
Something I've learned (and keep learning in other contexts) is that change can be overwhelming for some for many reasons, probably more than I'm aware of.
I've literally gone to a previous coworker and said, "there's a job with your name on it. Your pay will literally double. Your hours will halve. And you won't ever have to fear a C-level throwing a tantrum." They hummed and hawed and explained away why they didn't want to try.
I think some of it is:
- inertia
- anxiety of "what if?"
- known over unknown
- ???
Something I've learned (and keep learning in other contexts) is that change can be overwhelming for some for many reasons, probably more than I'm aware of.
I've literally gone to a previous coworker and said, "there's a job with your name on it. Your pay will literally double. Your hours will halve. And you won't ever have to fear a C-level throwing a tantrum." They hummed and hawed and explained away why they didn't want to try.
I think some of it is:
- inertia
- anxiety of "what if?"
- known over unknown
- ???
[deleted]
According to the article, Musk started giving six-figure retention bonuses. That's a lot of motivation if you think things will calm down soon.
And if don't think he'll fire you on whim tomorrow.
Actually, I'm far more likely to accept if I think I'll be fired tomorrow on a whim. Like, I can accept 3 months severance today -or- take a six-figure bonus today and then get 3 months severance tomorrow? That's the easiest money I will ever make.
If I read correctly, it’s down to 4 weeks severance with this latest batch of firings.
The severance is presumably a constant. The question is if you can get an additional six figure bonus for a day and then get fired.
Hiring bonuses usually have a clause about having to work for a specific amount of time, or you owe it back to the company.
So, to your question, probably not.
So, to your question, probably not.
You're assuming that your'e still getting/keeping that bonus after being fired. There's no way they are just giving you 6 figures in cash and hoping that you'll stick around - it's golden handcuffs.
And as others mentioned, the recent batch of firing "for cause" did not come with the same generous severance.
And as others mentioned, the recent batch of firing "for cause" did not come with the same generous severance.
Because many engineers are being paid upwards of $200k to work at one of the largest social media companies. On top of that, the economy in general is uncertain right now, with many other similar tech companies not hiring as aggressively as before. Layoffs were heavy handed, but this was a company that has been historically not profitable. Those that remain are being asked to show up in person and provide proof that their work adds value to the company. I understand why some would leave, but I can’t fathom how you absolutely cannot understand the reasons many are choosing to stay.
I’m not the greatest fan of Musk but if I was at Twitter, I would have stayed just to see how Musk works up close, to see the changes, and maybe to feel like being part of something big.
Now, in retrospect, I would not have stayed but 9 months ago it was hard to know how chaotic Musk will be.
Now, in retrospect, I would not have stayed but 9 months ago it was hard to know how chaotic Musk will be.
>I absolutely cannot understand why any engineer would chose to stay at Twitter with the way things are.
I get it. For the same reason that Geohot gets it.
There's a certain type of personality that doesn't care about life. They don't care about family. They don't care about wealth and material possessions. They don't care about "work life balance". They care about clout. They care about being "the best of the best". They want to be part of an elite team working on the hardest problems in the world, and nothing else matters. And Elon (through SpaceX, Tesla, and now Twitter) feeds that need greater than anything else available.
I get it. For the same reason that Geohot gets it.
There's a certain type of personality that doesn't care about life. They don't care about family. They don't care about wealth and material possessions. They don't care about "work life balance". They care about clout. They care about being "the best of the best". They want to be part of an elite team working on the hardest problems in the world, and nothing else matters. And Elon (through SpaceX, Tesla, and now Twitter) feeds that need greater than anything else available.
Musk is basically trying to be an Old Republic Sith Lord and filtering for apprentices.
All he has to do is throw down a gauntlet and it'll attract people who like running gauntlets. This particular gauntlet is software engineering. Make a thing seem really hard and prestigious (even if it's artificially hard) and you'll attract the hyper-competitive people.
All he has to do is throw down a gauntlet and it'll attract people who like running gauntlets. This particular gauntlet is software engineering. Make a thing seem really hard and prestigious (even if it's artificially hard) and you'll attract the hyper-competitive people.
Also all the people who stood between you and your boss's job are now gone. If I survived the initial round of firings and then the code review, I'd probably stick around to see what happens - maybe just to watch the place burn. I wouldn't substantially change my work behavior, and get my resume up to date. But it might be interesting to stay for a while.
Collapsing companies can be an excellent way to jump several rungs on the career ladder at a time.
If you're an ambitious Level 2 Hierarch and you know your Level 3 and 4 Hierarchs along with many of your fellow Level 2s have just departed, you can roll the dice and maybe become a Level 4 Hierarch before you depart in 6 months time. Experience allowing you to become a Level 4 Hierarch at a company that isn't collapsing.
Of course, it isn't clear that Musk is looking to promote any Hierarchs, so this would be a gamble.
If you're an ambitious Level 2 Hierarch and you know your Level 3 and 4 Hierarchs along with many of your fellow Level 2s have just departed, you can roll the dice and maybe become a Level 4 Hierarch before you depart in 6 months time. Experience allowing you to become a Level 4 Hierarch at a company that isn't collapsing.
Of course, it isn't clear that Musk is looking to promote any Hierarchs, so this would be a gamble.
Visas, in the short term at least.
I don't think anyone is staying there by choice now. Most stayed because of visa issues. Some might have stayed because of Musk's wow factor.
While this is certainly one factor, it can’t be the only factor. Twitter apparently had ~300 H-1B employees which is less than 20% of their remaining headcount. Unless there are vastly more of other visa types like L-1?
Discussed further in https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-h-1b-visa-has-problems...
Discussed further in https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-h-1b-visa-has-problems...
“Wow factor” as in “wow, what are you doing” presumably.
> Most stayed because of visa issues
I keep seeing people repeat this. Where is this factoid coming from? I'm left to assume it's subtle racism stemming from a photo Elon took with some Asian (many likely Asian-American?!?) guys at the office.
I keep seeing people repeat this. Where is this factoid coming from? I'm left to assume it's subtle racism stemming from a photo Elon took with some Asian (many likely Asian-American?!?) guys at the office.
I am an immigrant myself. So I understand the pain of uprooting yourself and moving to another country. I put myself in the shoes of Twitter staff. That ultimatum by Musk of Twitter 2.0 would simply had me quit. As did many engineers. But if my visa status was tied to the job, I would had stayed. Simply to get some more time in landing another job if nothing else.
I agree that there could be people caught in this situation. I feel for them and I want this system to be improved.
However, people are claiming that no engineer in their right mind would stay there if not in that situation. It turns out Twitter has had less than 700 H1-B approvals since 2009:
https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Noahpinion/status/159464174641...
Basic arithmetic to determine there are at least hundreds of American engineers working at Twitter right now.
People. I get it. You don't like Elon. You find this type of work environment toxic. Not everyone is like you though!
In fact, at least a few of us are applying to work there as we speak.
However, people are claiming that no engineer in their right mind would stay there if not in that situation. It turns out Twitter has had less than 700 H1-B approvals since 2009:
https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Noahpinion/status/159464174641...
Basic arithmetic to determine there are at least hundreds of American engineers working at Twitter right now.
People. I get it. You don't like Elon. You find this type of work environment toxic. Not everyone is like you though!
In fact, at least a few of us are applying to work there as we speak.
Just as a thought exercise: What are you going to say 3 years from now when a hiring manager asks why you willingly chose to start working for someone who had just wantonly admitted that he intended to be abusive to his staff and force them to work nights and weekends for a venture that he was actively undermining? Is this representative of the judgment you use on a regular basis, and if it is why should that manager trust you near their area of responsibility?
Definitely just a thought exercise. In no universe would a hiring manager ever ask this.
"Why did you sacrifice other things in your life to work at a large tech company, operating at scale, for a high salary?"
Edit: Absolutely laughable that you think this will be detrimental to people's careers. Your other comments on this topic are frankly unhinged. If you are indeed a hiring manager planning on factoring this in to your criteria, please know this will be a massive red flag to productive engineers.
"Why did you sacrifice other things in your life to work at a large tech company, operating at scale, for a high salary?"
Edit: Absolutely laughable that you think this will be detrimental to people's careers. Your other comments on this topic are frankly unhinged. If you are indeed a hiring manager planning on factoring this in to your criteria, please know this will be a massive red flag to productive engineers.
It's detrimental to all of our careers that this is the example being set for "how engineers should be treated". I'm not your enemy here: if you get hurt and taken for a ride, that effects me because we're in the same market. Knocking the bottom out of the market is bad for all of us. I wish you wouldn't throw yourself into the grinder and help it along, but I hope things work out for you either way.
You're not my enemy, sure. But I'm not interested in working with coddled and entitled individuals who are half checked out, self-important, have a warped perspective on life and humanity, etc. I end up having to pick up the slack. No thanks.
Musk absolutely smashed that culture at Twitter. It will be rough seas for a while but the company will emerge stronger. Maybe even profitable!
Musk absolutely smashed that culture at Twitter. It will be rough seas for a while but the company will emerge stronger. Maybe even profitable!
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I doubt the majority of them are visa holders, but twitter sponsors h1-b staff, and it's incredibly difficult (logistically and emotionally) to move jobs or do anything visa-wise.
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Not everyone is born rich and/or can stay without visa.
It's hard to find other jobs right now with all the companies laying off people.
It's hard to find other jobs right now with all the companies laying off people.
Likely a majority are on H1B visas -- they're trapped.
Looks like around 300 people who worked at Twitter were on H1B visas [1]. Let’s assume they were let go at the same rate as all employees and say there are 150 left. That’s a minority of the work force. People are choosing to stay for reasons beyond being trapped by visa requirements.
[1] https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/18/politics/twitter-layoffs-...
[1] https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/18/politics/twitter-layoffs-...
Likely you made this up and have no idea actually.
It was pure conjecture, idle speculation, a haphazard guess.
While most of us in this forum probably appreciate drive, technical mastery, and the creation of great things, etc., the reports on Musk's management style don't make for a compelling recruitment pitch.
While most of us in this forum probably appreciate drive, technical mastery, and the creation of great things, etc., the reports on Musk's management style don't make for a compelling recruitment pitch.
[deleted]
Because you get to work directly with one of the most productive and (technically) creative people in history? Alive right now, dining with you and reviewing your code? Plus you get to work on one of the most important platforms for world politics.
If I was in SF, I’d definitely apply.
If I was in SF, I’d definitely apply.
Some of us like to work, eat, and make money. Before Musk, there is no way I would have offered any alternative view. Now, I can speak freely. Anyone complaining is more vested in politics than software.
What were you not able to say before?
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That does sound messed up -- it's one thing to be ignored on an issue like that but to be fired yourself is kind of crazy. I guess it's good to have friends in high places....
In the morning, Slack was filled with people showing off their morning run, coffee on a table, you name it. Nothing about what needed to be accomplished. I mentioned it in a stand-up, and was told to spend time reflecting on my position in the company. Certain people were allowed to code outside of the 'standard', and if you spoke about it, it turned into an intervention.
Speak freely about what? You think these random printout code reviews would spare you just because of your political views? That would imply Elon's Twitter is still more vested in politics than software.
<< Some employees were offered up to $100,000 in raises to stay
I will admit that this entire saga shows rather reactive, if not plain erratic, behavior. That said, this behavior supposedly is not new in a sense that Musk has been known to sometimes sleep at Tesla factory and is a known workaholic that demands similar level of devotion.
I am saying all this as someone, who defended Musk's initial layoffs, because I assumed ( clearly wrongly ) that he had some sort of plan devised during his review of Twitter during purchase. Musk is currently worth 180b. Even if he burns Twitter to the ground, he could still buy 2 or 3 publicly listed companies on a whim ( as he seems prone to do ).
Is it the kind of power we, as a society, want one person to wield?
I will admit that this entire saga shows rather reactive, if not plain erratic, behavior. That said, this behavior supposedly is not new in a sense that Musk has been known to sometimes sleep at Tesla factory and is a known workaholic that demands similar level of devotion.
I am saying all this as someone, who defended Musk's initial layoffs, because I assumed ( clearly wrongly ) that he had some sort of plan devised during his review of Twitter during purchase. Musk is currently worth 180b. Even if he burns Twitter to the ground, he could still buy 2 or 3 publicly listed companies on a whim ( as he seems prone to do ).
Is it the kind of power we, as a society, want one person to wield?
>Is it the kind of power we, as a society, want one person to wield?
It really is terrifying. You know for a fact that he has a UI where he can pull up the DMs of anyone ever on Twitter. The blackmail opportunities alone were worth the $44b.
It really is terrifying. You know for a fact that he has a UI where he can pull up the DMs of anyone ever on Twitter. The blackmail opportunities alone were worth the $44b.
Gergely Orosz has been engagement farming this ongoing saga for weeks now (I had to mute him on Twitter). Kind of makes him a bit hypocritical when taking advantage of this situation for his own enrichment, no? I wonder how many books he's sold in the meantime. Also, acting like engineers that have been making six-figures for years now are some kind of underclass is a bit ridiculous, but that's neither here nor there.
This guy hustles so much that he has no integrity left.
One saga I remember is the plaid-stripe scandal where Plaid founder accused Jay of stealing ideas (e.g. interviewed at plaid, having meetings)
This Orosz guy piled on with an anecdote and stated that this was normal for PM in fintech, especially at Stripe.
Then, Jay responded that:
- the job interview was before Jay joined Stripe and 3 years before Jay built this product at Stripe - All the meetings they had were initiated by Plaid. Jay even mentioned he was repeatedly asked for a meeting by Plaid.
Plaid founder never responded to this.
This Orosz guy kinda moved on and never apologized for piling on with an unrelated story.
One saga I remember is the plaid-stripe scandal where Plaid founder accused Jay of stealing ideas (e.g. interviewed at plaid, having meetings)
This Orosz guy piled on with an anecdote and stated that this was normal for PM in fintech, especially at Stripe.
Then, Jay responded that:
- the job interview was before Jay joined Stripe and 3 years before Jay built this product at Stripe - All the meetings they had were initiated by Plaid. Jay even mentioned he was repeatedly asked for a meeting by Plaid.
Plaid founder never responded to this.
This Orosz guy kinda moved on and never apologized for piling on with an unrelated story.
Anyone can be mistreated
100% agree. He's hysterical. It has changed my opinion of him.
That's the word I was trying to find: "engagement farming". While I respect his hustle, majority of his content is exactly that. Find the outrage in the world, wrap it up in a box, and include some of your products to alleviate the pain(i.e. layoffs -> job postings).
This is a pretty well known pattern to grow on social media though. Find the major division, double down on one side, and repeat your position. It's smart, but feels wrong to me. Needless to say, our attention talking about this is just making him more money, so I respect him to be in that position.
This is a pretty well known pattern to grow on social media though. Find the major division, double down on one side, and repeat your position. It's smart, but feels wrong to me. Needless to say, our attention talking about this is just making him more money, so I respect him to be in that position.
Rapid mass layoffs based on completely arbitrary grounds and sudden drastic changes in work expectations are abusive practices regardless of the level of compensation.
This. Tech workers have been pampered for a decade, up to the point where people feel entitled to their job. From high six figure salaries to all the perks that tech cos give out without necessarily requiring a 4 year cs degree, life is pretty good, compared to others in the medical field, education, finance etc.
Employment is never certain. Companies grow, pivot, shutdown, cut costs. The last 10+ years were the golden years for tech, but times are changing. Fat needs to be trimmed. Sometimes it hits even the good ones. The business doesnt owe its employees anything other than compensation for services.
I empathize with the visa holders stuck in jobs or lost theirs and now have to scramble to look for a new job and sponsor. I was a H1B myself, and I was always aware of the risks and being at the mercy of my employer, but that is the risk I was willing to take for a job I liked that paid a lot more.
I see a lot of anger towards companies aggressively hiring at fault, but if they didn't, a lot more people would not have had their cush jobs for however long it lasted.
Employment is never certain. Companies grow, pivot, shutdown, cut costs. The last 10+ years were the golden years for tech, but times are changing. Fat needs to be trimmed. Sometimes it hits even the good ones. The business doesnt owe its employees anything other than compensation for services.
I empathize with the visa holders stuck in jobs or lost theirs and now have to scramble to look for a new job and sponsor. I was a H1B myself, and I was always aware of the risks and being at the mercy of my employer, but that is the risk I was willing to take for a job I liked that paid a lot more.
I see a lot of anger towards companies aggressively hiring at fault, but if they didn't, a lot more people would not have had their cush jobs for however long it lasted.
One of the more recent layoffs was Ikuhiro Ihara [1] who is definitely not someone I'd classify as an 'underperformer' (though I'm sure that's how he'll be reclassified since that seems to be how people act).
[1] https://twitter.com/CaseyNewton/status/1595818243620380672
[1] https://twitter.com/CaseyNewton/status/1595818243620380672
The motivation of the purge was 100% political and cultural. Performance was the facade.
Sadly, that was often the case in corporate America. In practical sense, firing 'for cause' were often just finding an appropriate level of 'excuse' to not have to pay unemployment.
I assume, this is a rather cynical way to cut additional costs.
I assume, this is a rather cynical way to cut additional costs.
duke98(3)
It's... interesting to see all the VCs on twitter defending the culture at Musk's twitter.
Why is this post flagged? This is not false information
The worst part is hiring will be impossible for him. I think he feels strongly that throwing money at people will get him engineers. The question is are there enough talented engineers in the cult of Elon in the domain he needs
I just keep thinking of some excellent scenes from 'Office Space' all playing out in real life. 'What would you say, you do here?'
Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33730985
If anyone at all stays after round after round of fear-based managing, you are throwing in the towel to Fear. Rise above: quit before it is too late!
Why was this flagged?
[deleted]
When someone like Elon Musk does something it is for a reason.
He's hiding something.
He's hiding something.
togaen(1)
I don’t think it is cruel treatment targeting software engineers, it is targeting employees not originally hired by Musk’s management. Of course, that is everybody at Twitter.
Absolutely none of this is surprising. Twitter employees knew that this was coming for like 9 months or so. If people are still there, then they are voluntarily accepting this cruel treatment. Any software engineers that are even halfway decent would still get snapped up in a heartbeat elsewhere.
Of course, the one caveat to all this is our indentured servitude system of H1B visas. Even then, though, if I were on an H1B, as soon as it became apparent that Musk was taking over I would have started looking for other employment if I wanted to stay in the US.
But otherwise, I don't see why any other software engineers at Twitter would have any right to complain about cruel treatment. Just leave if you don't want to work there.
Of course, the one caveat to all this is our indentured servitude system of H1B visas. Even then, though, if I were on an H1B, as soon as it became apparent that Musk was taking over I would have started looking for other employment if I wanted to stay in the US.
But otherwise, I don't see why any other software engineers at Twitter would have any right to complain about cruel treatment. Just leave if you don't want to work there.
Come on, no one could see _this_ coming. Let's be honest, what Musk is doing is surreal and bizarre.
Fair enough, but only around the edges. I mean, it was definitely clear he would:
1. be laying off a shitload of people - he flat out said so pretty early on.
2. that he would drive those that remained extremely hard. Anyone who works at Tesla or SpaceX can verify that.
3. this is kind of a follow on from the first 2, but once it became clear about the financing behind the Twitter LBO, that Musk would be under a ton of pressure to reduce expenses and grow revenue just to pay off the additional billion dollars in annual interest.
Yes, the clown-show chaos is pretty extreme, even by Musk's standards. But a have no sympathy for anyone that still remains that doesn't have visa issues to worry about. And, indeed, I'd assume the only people who still are remaining are there by choice given all the great opportunities they've had to leave (3 months severance for quitting is a great deal).
1. be laying off a shitload of people - he flat out said so pretty early on.
2. that he would drive those that remained extremely hard. Anyone who works at Tesla or SpaceX can verify that.
3. this is kind of a follow on from the first 2, but once it became clear about the financing behind the Twitter LBO, that Musk would be under a ton of pressure to reduce expenses and grow revenue just to pay off the additional billion dollars in annual interest.
Yes, the clown-show chaos is pretty extreme, even by Musk's standards. But a have no sympathy for anyone that still remains that doesn't have visa issues to worry about. And, indeed, I'd assume the only people who still are remaining are there by choice given all the great opportunities they've had to leave (3 months severance for quitting is a great deal).
All: please let this topic sit for at least two weeks, if not more. It’s too early to tell what’s happening and we are only getting one side of the story, from very few confirmed first-hand sources.
I feel like there have been a bunch of first hand sources from (ex) twitter employees on the topic?
it's been a month since he came into twitter, I think we've got a pretty good idea how things are gonna continue to go at this point.
Whatever you think of Musk or his goals, it's just not something that makes any sense for him to be spending his time on.