Beware of the perfect gentleman(vice.com)
vice.com
Beware of the perfect gentleman
https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zmvd/beware-of-the-perfect-gentleman
184 comments
> When I was growing up you never posted your photo online where strangers could see it.
I have _never_ uploaded my photo "online" voluntarily, but still it was common to put your photo in many places that were easily reachable by the common public. My school published a yearbook with my photo, for example. Many journal papers I've published had my photo attached, starting at least from the 90s.
Some of these have been digitized and thus my photo is easily reachable for anyone who searches for my full name, without me ever voluntarily uploading it "online".
> Earlier than that, it was also considered proper etiquette to ask before taking someone's photo.
This much is still true, or can you imagine going around randomly flashing people with your phone on the street?
Actually I think this has improved over time. I'm far from a celebrity, but my photo is on the press -- and they never asked for permission. Nowadays, they do.
I have _never_ uploaded my photo "online" voluntarily, but still it was common to put your photo in many places that were easily reachable by the common public. My school published a yearbook with my photo, for example. Many journal papers I've published had my photo attached, starting at least from the 90s.
Some of these have been digitized and thus my photo is easily reachable for anyone who searches for my full name, without me ever voluntarily uploading it "online".
> Earlier than that, it was also considered proper etiquette to ask before taking someone's photo.
This much is still true, or can you imagine going around randomly flashing people with your phone on the street?
Actually I think this has improved over time. I'm far from a celebrity, but my photo is on the press -- and they never asked for permission. Nowadays, they do.
I don't put my photo up either. I know of an old newspaper clipping that made its way online and of course yearbooks have as well.
The other way my photo has made it online is pictures with friends and family, generally facebook.
Luckily, between that and my name being shared by several people in my country who are more comfortable with online persona's, and no one is actually going to find my image unless they're trying really hard to specifically target me.
Your point is a good one and I know I'm lucky in that respect. I very much miss the days when anonymity was a major value in online interactions.
The other way my photo has made it online is pictures with friends and family, generally facebook.
Luckily, between that and my name being shared by several people in my country who are more comfortable with online persona's, and no one is actually going to find my image unless they're trying really hard to specifically target me.
Your point is a good one and I know I'm lucky in that respect. I very much miss the days when anonymity was a major value in online interactions.
Considering how good face recognition is these days it would be nice to have legislation in place that you have to give explicit consent to any website in order to use your image. Govt can crawl the web and block websites from the countries ISP that don't comply. Hard to see another automated solution for this problem
Congrats, now 90+% of all photographs taken outside are completely unshareable online, and the > century old art of street photography is dead.
Honestly I don't see anything wrong with that. The century old art is not dead, you can showcase your photos in a gallery just not online, without explicit consent of your subjects. A hundred years ago we didn't have this problem.
Most portraits have their background blurred so those wouldn't be a problem. Street photos can have the faces blurred. Why are we protecting sharing these street photos of random people anyway?
Most portraits have their background blurred so those wouldn't be a problem. Street photos can have the faces blurred. Why are we protecting sharing these street photos of random people anyway?
Seems like victory for privacy. You could get a AI to censor people faces automatically too.
Indeed, that would surely stop Nigerian thiefs from using your photos. Impervious strategy.
Use them for what?
Exactly what the article is about?
Yeah, I am disheartened by some comments in this thread as well.
Sure, let's implement these laws that essentially will be used for stiffening art, at least all these scammers (who already do illegal things) will start following the law, and these romance scams will stop /s.
This is like the gun control debate, but much worse. At least with gun control, it has strong ties to geographic boundaries, given that guns are physical objects, so I can see some decent arguments for why it (at least hypothetically) could work (e.g., Australia).
But with photos posted online, the locale is global internet, where everything is instantly reachable and replicable with pretty much zero marginal cost, from anywhere in the world. These proposals are imo peak idealism without much pragmatic thought applied at all.
Mind you, I am not saying "let's do nothing, things are all good." But some of the proposed "fixes" to this I've seen here are truly useless at best and harmful at worst.
Sure, let's implement these laws that essentially will be used for stiffening art, at least all these scammers (who already do illegal things) will start following the law, and these romance scams will stop /s.
This is like the gun control debate, but much worse. At least with gun control, it has strong ties to geographic boundaries, given that guns are physical objects, so I can see some decent arguments for why it (at least hypothetically) could work (e.g., Australia).
But with photos posted online, the locale is global internet, where everything is instantly reachable and replicable with pretty much zero marginal cost, from anywhere in the world. These proposals are imo peak idealism without much pragmatic thought applied at all.
Mind you, I am not saying "let's do nothing, things are all good." But some of the proposed "fixes" to this I've seen here are truly useless at best and harmful at worst.
I didn't read the article tbh but the comment I replied to implied they used fake social media profiles which makes sense and would be prevented by what I suggested. The scammers would need to make a profile on a website you're familiar with and if those websites guarantee that a profile is who they say they are by law then all these problems go away. Doesn't matter if someone outside the system gets your photos
Read the article and come back to delete your nonsensical comments once you realize how irrelevant they are to the subject matter.
I'm sorry but I don't understand your vitriol.
> The women claimed to have met him on a dating app, social media platform, or a less-expected online space, like an app-based word or puzzle game (Words With Friends is popular with scammers)—anything with a chat feature. What the women didn’t know was that the 50-something fellow with the goatee who smiled back at them in photograph after photograph wasn’t the same person they were speaking with. Their charming lover was a scripted character used by gangs of overseas fakers to bilk cash from unsuspecting romantics, and Geras’ stolen photos were the bait.
The article says the man feared for his life because husbands of these women called him. Presumably these women are from the same country as this guy so my suggestion would've stopped most of those vectors of attack. I mean yeah if they gave their phone number in the chat of a puzzle game then the scammers could send whatever pictures they wanted but that's a much harder thing to pull off than scam someone on a dating app or with a fake social media profile
> The women claimed to have met him on a dating app, social media platform, or a less-expected online space, like an app-based word or puzzle game (Words With Friends is popular with scammers)—anything with a chat feature. What the women didn’t know was that the 50-something fellow with the goatee who smiled back at them in photograph after photograph wasn’t the same person they were speaking with. Their charming lover was a scripted character used by gangs of overseas fakers to bilk cash from unsuspecting romantics, and Geras’ stolen photos were the bait.
The article says the man feared for his life because husbands of these women called him. Presumably these women are from the same country as this guy so my suggestion would've stopped most of those vectors of attack. I mean yeah if they gave their phone number in the chat of a puzzle game then the scammers could send whatever pictures they wanted but that's a much harder thing to pull off than scam someone on a dating app or with a fake social media profile
I hire a lawyer, they submit a takedown request to FB or TikTok or wherever else they’re using my identity, now what?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if someone lives across the world and is doing all this impersonation online, what legal recourse does a lawyer have access to? Drag them to The Hague?
I’ve been in cases before where someone in a different continent is trying to impersonate or sink you, and I can say in my experience there’s little a Canadian lawyer could have done.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if someone lives across the world and is doing all this impersonation online, what legal recourse does a lawyer have access to? Drag them to The Hague?
I’ve been in cases before where someone in a different continent is trying to impersonate or sink you, and I can say in my experience there’s little a Canadian lawyer could have done.
True it's more difficult cross-jurisdiction. Especially if the country doesn't have a robust legal system. I've had a lawyer hire another lawyer in said jurisdiction to help with enforcement across borders.
I wonder if a local lawyer can do something if the scammers' IP / country can be somehow identified. I wouldnt expect much, maybe the scammers will just switch to a different picture, what still counts as a win.
>When I was growing up you never posted your photo online where strangers could see it.
When was that? For those over 40, when they grew up there was no "online".
And if one was a kid or teenager growing up the the mid to late nineties, people had personal websites and online photos of themselves up regularly, and it wasn't considered much.
You didn't have regular snaps of your life, or pictures of the food you ate, like later, but you could well have your picture and nobody would consider it strange. Heck, even university professors and professionals of all kinds had personal and business pages with their photos on...
When was that? For those over 40, when they grew up there was no "online".
And if one was a kid or teenager growing up the the mid to late nineties, people had personal websites and online photos of themselves up regularly, and it wasn't considered much.
You didn't have regular snaps of your life, or pictures of the food you ate, like later, but you could well have your picture and nobody would consider it strange. Heck, even university professors and professionals of all kinds had personal and business pages with their photos on...
> When was that? For those over 40, when they grew up there was no "online".
There were BBSs. But I don't think anyone would appreciate trying to upload a photo through a 300 baud modem.
There were BBSs. But I don't think anyone would appreciate trying to upload a photo through a 300 baud modem.
What you've described is part of the culture shift I'm talking about.
If you accept the Internet became popular in '85-'95 [1], someone 40 today would have been 3yrs to 13yrs old in that span so right in the sweet spot of their formative years.
As others pointed out, prior to the Internet there were BBS's, message boards, forums like CompuServe, AOL, etc. which were its precursors and what was known as going 'online' at the time. I did intend that to be included in my meaning when I used the term.
Of course I'm speaking from personal experiences and your own may vary. :-)
[1] https://www.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories....
If you accept the Internet became popular in '85-'95 [1], someone 40 today would have been 3yrs to 13yrs old in that span so right in the sweet spot of their formative years.
As others pointed out, prior to the Internet there were BBS's, message boards, forums like CompuServe, AOL, etc. which were its precursors and what was known as going 'online' at the time. I did intend that to be included in my meaning when I used the term.
Of course I'm speaking from personal experiences and your own may vary. :-)
[1] https://www.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories....
FWIW, I'm over 40 and was "online" as a teen, first with BBS and then with dial-up internet.
Sure, and one could be 80 and be "online" as a teen on his parent's ARPANET account.
But it's not the online kind we're discussing here, where upload pictures of yourself to the web was considered uncouth (as per the parent commenter), because it wasn't considered as good or bad at all, as it was just not a thing people could do at the time (not even BBS users were actually doing that, except perhaps in some incredibly rare cases where someone could get access to a scanner).
But it's not the online kind we're discussing here, where upload pictures of yourself to the web was considered uncouth (as per the parent commenter), because it wasn't considered as good or bad at all, as it was just not a thing people could do at the time (not even BBS users were actually doing that, except perhaps in some incredibly rare cases where someone could get access to a scanner).
I was simply replying to your statement, nothing more.
>For those over 40, when they grew up there was no "online".
>For those over 40, when they grew up there was no "online".
I have been constantly harrased by accounts with pretty girl pictures on LinkedIn, wish they could do something.
Why did I know they are fake?
One, I'm not handsome, neither do I work in those high status companies, why did they reach out to me?
Two, they look more like models than software engineers. Completely bullshit.
Why did I know they are fake?
One, I'm not handsome, neither do I work in those high status companies, why did they reach out to me?
Two, they look more like models than software engineers. Completely bullshit.
Lets face it. The "pretty girl profile" strategy works on a wide enough fraction of men that with probability close to 1 you can establish a legit connection to at least a few legit people at the company. Once you get that far, you can start getting recommendations for other people you "might know" and have enough of an "in" to get a glimpse at the entire org chart of the place. From there your a short jump away from being added to internal slack channels and whatever.
Not that I've ever done this. I always respect and obey the computer fraud and abuse act of 1986 vis a vis the section on unauthorized access to a computer system.
Not that I've ever done this. I always respect and obey the computer fraud and abuse act of 1986 vis a vis the section on unauthorized access to a computer system.
Back in the MySpace (Bebo also maybe?) days, I met a programmer who harvested womens' profile pictures from social media for the AdultFriendFinder.com adverts on porn sites.
He didn't consider it unethical because "you'd have to be really really stupid to think that women are posting their face on a site like AFF".
I kinda thought exploiting the really stupid was still unethical, but his response was given that I worked in adtech, I wasn't really in a place to judge.
Which was hard to argue against, tbh, as I spent a lot of my time then either making popunders work again after Firefox released a new version that broke our old approach, or figuring out how to store our tracking data better.
But now that I've got a few years between me and adtech, I'm totally going to judge you hard, eug1505.
He didn't consider it unethical because "you'd have to be really really stupid to think that women are posting their face on a site like AFF".
I kinda thought exploiting the really stupid was still unethical, but his response was given that I worked in adtech, I wasn't really in a place to judge.
Which was hard to argue against, tbh, as I spent a lot of my time then either making popunders work again after Firefox released a new version that broke our old approach, or figuring out how to store our tracking data better.
But now that I've got a few years between me and adtech, I'm totally going to judge you hard, eug1505.
How about the women whose profile pics he “harvested” (stole)?
Isn’t there a huge ethical issue there?
Isn’t there a huge ethical issue there?
I think so.
> But now that I've got a few years between me and adtech, I'm totally going to judge you hard, eug1505.
I don’t want to put words in the other dude’s mouth, but I think he thinks so too.
> But now that I've got a few years between me and adtech, I'm totally going to judge you hard, eug1505.
I don’t want to put words in the other dude’s mouth, but I think he thinks so too.
Fair point, I was focused more on the fraud aspect of it so didn't think of that.
How is it a "short jump" from being connected to a few people on LinkedIn, to then being added to internal slack channels? It's not impossible, but it seems like quite a leap.
> Two, they look more like models than software engineers. Completely bullshit.
Can I push back against this? It’s toxic as fuck. Being a woman in tech blows. You can’t be pretty or you’re considered incompetent and shallow. You can’t be ugly or you’re treated poorly for that.
It’s a loose-loose.
What does a software engineer look like to you, then?
Can I push back against this? It’s toxic as fuck. Being a woman in tech blows. You can’t be pretty or you’re considered incompetent and shallow. You can’t be ugly or you’re treated poorly for that.
It’s a loose-loose.
What does a software engineer look like to you, then?
Despite you getting some bad feedback on this comment, I think you're right and I bumped on that phrase too.
This reminds me of a billboard campaign to hire developers that ran a few years ago, and featured a few SEs, including one woman considered attractive. A lot of people said things along the lines of "this isn't what a real SE looks like", along with many... less nice things. Of course, she actually was a full stack engineer at that company. This prompted her to start a campaign (#ILookLikeAnEngineer). For more details read her blog: https://medium.com/the-coffeelicious/you-may-have-seen-my-fa...
Note to some commenters: I'm not saying that you can't tell a fake profile from a not fake profile. I'm saying that a sentence like "they look more like models than software engineers" is implicitly hinting that software engineers are not attractive females. That's the objection that I believe teux was raising, and it's a valid one.
This reminds me of a billboard campaign to hire developers that ran a few years ago, and featured a few SEs, including one woman considered attractive. A lot of people said things along the lines of "this isn't what a real SE looks like", along with many... less nice things. Of course, she actually was a full stack engineer at that company. This prompted her to start a campaign (#ILookLikeAnEngineer). For more details read her blog: https://medium.com/the-coffeelicious/you-may-have-seen-my-fa...
Note to some commenters: I'm not saying that you can't tell a fake profile from a not fake profile. I'm saying that a sentence like "they look more like models than software engineers" is implicitly hinting that software engineers are not attractive females. That's the objection that I believe teux was raising, and it's a valid one.
You and GP both need to take a step back and consider the context since both of you seem to conveniently forget one very important thing: why would anyone get harrassed by software developers on LinkedIn as just another workerbee? Now multiply that by whatever factor you believe a software developer is a gorgeous woman. Maybe now it makes sense why people are skeptical.
With your line of reasoning, people would be defending phishing emails because "some representatives have bad grammar skills". Think of how lubricous that would be in a discussion on phishing.
With your line of reasoning, people would be defending phishing emails because "some representatives have bad grammar skills". Think of how lubricous that would be in a discussion on phishing.
To clarify, I totally understand the context.
I'm specifically saying that saying a phrase like "they don't look like software developers" just because they're good looking women is in itself a bad (and false!) meme to circulate, which in itself is a bad thing, regardless of context.
I'm specifically saying that saying a phrase like "they don't look like software developers" just because they're good looking women is in itself a bad (and false!) meme to circulate, which in itself is a bad thing, regardless of context.
Yeah. That’s all I was trying to say. I’m not speaking about anything related to shitty recruiters, how hard it is to be a man online (??), or how much it sucks to be the target of sex-based scams.
Just. Saying it sucks to be a woman in tech and statements and sentiments like this are part of the reason why.
Still no one answered my question: “What does a software engineer look like then?”
I think it was a combination of me being not explicit enough and touching on an obviously sore subject for others. But I don’t have the energy to unravel it or debate.
Just. Saying it sucks to be a woman in tech and statements and sentiments like this are part of the reason why.
Still no one answered my question: “What does a software engineer look like then?”
I think it was a combination of me being not explicit enough and touching on an obviously sore subject for others. But I don’t have the energy to unravel it or debate.
Are you a woman in tech?
The reason that I ask is that your account is pretty new and this seems a little bit like stowing up discord on social media.
Regardless. There is a difference between a beautiful woman that can code (these are actually getting more and more prevalent) and the trashy looking profile picture that all of us instantly know is some kind of spammer or scammer in our DMs or our inbox.
The fact that they're portrayed as woman has more to do with the loneliness of many men in tech than anything else and pretending that this type of behaviour is non-existent is childish when it's clear that places like LinkedIn and Twitter could do a lot more to detect it and prevent it.
The reason that I ask is that your account is pretty new and this seems a little bit like stowing up discord on social media.
Regardless. There is a difference between a beautiful woman that can code (these are actually getting more and more prevalent) and the trashy looking profile picture that all of us instantly know is some kind of spammer or scammer in our DMs or our inbox.
The fact that they're portrayed as woman has more to do with the loneliness of many men in tech than anything else and pretending that this type of behaviour is non-existent is childish when it's clear that places like LinkedIn and Twitter could do a lot more to detect it and prevent it.
Yes? I just migrated from reddit.
Read my comments. I have been discussing my job in Europe and my work with vectorised optimisations.
Seems like a lot of work for sowing discord, but you make the call.
Read my comments. I have been discussing my job in Europe and my work with vectorised optimisations.
Seems like a lot of work for sowing discord, but you make the call.
Well I'll take you at your word then. Be aware that new accounts or accounts without much comment history are treated with more suspicion on HN when they discuss hot button issues like gender or politics.
> It’s toxic as fuck. Being a woman in tech blows. You can’t be pretty or you’re considered incompetent and shallow. You can’t be ugly or you’re treated poorly for that.
One of the best programmers I've ever worked with was a woman. Former Google. I'd prefer not to discuss how attractive she is because it doesn't matter to me. I'm sorry you're having a rough time in Scandinavia and, from your comment history, formerly the USA. I've worked with non-aggressive teams from different places, but I've also observed women being mistreated in both Canada and the USA as well.
That said, I've seen ASD men mistreated as well. Unfortunately there are jerks out there and we can all try to do better.
> It’s toxic as fuck. Being a woman in tech blows. You can’t be pretty or you’re considered incompetent and shallow. You can’t be ugly or you’re treated poorly for that.
One of the best programmers I've ever worked with was a woman. Former Google. I'd prefer not to discuss how attractive she is because it doesn't matter to me. I'm sorry you're having a rough time in Scandinavia and, from your comment history, formerly the USA. I've worked with non-aggressive teams from different places, but I've also observed women being mistreated in both Canada and the USA as well.
That said, I've seen ASD men mistreated as well. Unfortunately there are jerks out there and we can all try to do better.
joenot443(1)
can i push back on that? as a guy, girls texting you randomly on any platform is almost always a bot, scammer, <insert something other than what it appears to be>.
i completely agree with you, a software engineer looks like a person who writes software. but that doesn't change the online experience that i have had as a man, which is namely, if a girl texts you, she's not a girl, and she certainly isn't your friend.
i completely agree with you, a software engineer looks like a person who writes software. but that doesn't change the online experience that i have had as a man, which is namely, if a girl texts you, she's not a girl, and she certainly isn't your friend.
The average woman is fairly well treated and not at all like the average LinkedIn stalker, let alone a model. You're trying to bridge two related but different contexts
ok but do you really need to look like a model on Linkedin ? You can be pretty, but is being ultra sexy really that important there ?
He didnt say they were random girls like we meet every day, he said model. When men contact me on linkedin for insurance products and they look like Calvin Klein underweare models, Im like "hum" too.
He didnt say they were random girls like we meet every day, he said model. When men contact me on linkedin for insurance products and they look like Calvin Klein underweare models, Im like "hum" too.
Yes you can push back.
Of course woman in tech can be pretty. Grace Hopper is 100x more pretty than any model in the world.
Of course woman in tech can be pretty. Grace Hopper is 100x more pretty than any model in the world.
> You can’t be pretty or you’re considered incompetent and shallow
That's not a gendered stereotype, though, that's all technology people.
That's not a gendered stereotype, though, that's all technology people.
I have noticed that a lot of tech recruiters are conventionally attractive women.
Because sex sells. Where you not aware of this by now? This has been proven to death by now.
And by sex I don't mean the copulation act, but just seeing very handsome and attractive people that trigger your primal mating desires, works in advertising when trying to convince people to buy something from you or give you something (a product, a service, an idea, their time, their money, their attention, their assistance, etc.)
It's why many recruiters, especially in tech, tend to be the attractive female type as it works well enough on the majority male demographic this career attracts.
And why most successful sales people, and to a large degree, managers who managed to climb 'the ladder', tend to be on the tall, athletic, attractive side.
This is completely anecdotal, but I've never ever seen conventionally short males in upper management in any company I worked at so far. It's as if it was a 'jocks club' and you needed the right physique to join.
And by sex I don't mean the copulation act, but just seeing very handsome and attractive people that trigger your primal mating desires, works in advertising when trying to convince people to buy something from you or give you something (a product, a service, an idea, their time, their money, their attention, their assistance, etc.)
It's why many recruiters, especially in tech, tend to be the attractive female type as it works well enough on the majority male demographic this career attracts.
And why most successful sales people, and to a large degree, managers who managed to climb 'the ladder', tend to be on the tall, athletic, attractive side.
This is completely anecdotal, but I've never ever seen conventionally short males in upper management in any company I worked at so far. It's as if it was a 'jocks club' and you needed the right physique to join.
A funny observation: I've had the best response rate and relationships with recruiters who are regular looking men. The attractive female recruiters mostly just send a message with the job info, but completely bail when you ask for a salary range and remote work policy. Maybe they get such a large number of replies that they don't need to bother with the ones asking difficult questions.
There was an academic paper about this recently; we’re aware of “Asian” as a bias but not “physically attractive” and disproportionately favor the more pleasing individuals.
What's the "Asian" bias? That sounds like an US thing.
It it the stereotype that Asians are good at STEM?
It it the stereotype that Asians are good at STEM?
ikiris(1)
> they look more like models than software engineers
I worked with someone (she was on the sales team) who looked like a model. Her mom was a model--go figure. So while unlikely, it does happen.
I worked with someone (she was on the sales team) who looked like a model. Her mom was a model--go figure. So while unlikely, it does happen.
I remember filtering programmer resumes about 20 years ago and one listed modelling as a prior job and her packet included a headshot. We flew her out and interviewed her and she aced the written test and interviews; we made her an offer but she had multiple to choose from and our starting salary was not competitive.
> one listed modelling as a prior job
We had the near opposite experience. We were looking to hire a "Modelling and simulation developer" for Matlab. And some ladies would somehow only see the "modelling experience desired" part and ignore the other technical requirements and flood us with their portfolios of various photo shoots.
I'm sure the hiring guys hated it.
We had the near opposite experience. We were looking to hire a "Modelling and simulation developer" for Matlab. And some ladies would somehow only see the "modelling experience desired" part and ignore the other technical requirements and flood us with their portfolios of various photo shoots.
I'm sure the hiring guys hated it.
I distinctly remember thinking - this is odd, but whatever, we had to look at so many resumes we had to concentrate on looking at grades and outside projects and anything else to distinguish between candidates to get to the phone screen stage, it was just me and a senior producer (might be called product manager nowadays), I cannot remember everything but we were looking at new grads for a couple of years to expand a little.
Reminds me of an incident twenty+ years ago when a magazine looking to recruit models temporarily rented office space above the local comic book shop.
Sounds like people applying to thousands of positions based on only keywords to stay competitive.
If you work at somewhat prestigious companies, you've probably worked with ex or part time models. Not many people make enough money off of modelling that they won't need another career, but being model material makes everything else in life, such as job interviews, easier.
Those are just the auditors; the audit firms send charismatic and attractive people around so that the people whose work they're checking will let their guard down.
Not really, the title is usually something like a tech consultant with completely BS educational and career experience. But I do agree it could be red team but they are annoying as hell. Actually lemme show you one:
https://www.linkedin.com/mwlite/in/ellie-fang-411900257
https://www.linkedin.com/mwlite/in/ellie-fang-411900257
That headshot is of a Taiwanese actress. You'd think they'd at least use a more believable headshot.
https://ent.ltn.com.tw/news/breakingnews/2357875
https://ent.ltn.com.tw/news/breakingnews/2357875
One common explanation to such things is that it is a filter: if a person doesn't notice something like that, there's a good chance they won't become suspicious later either.
Low effort pig butchering scams for lonely workaholics..
Also pen test teams will use halo effect when it's an option.
Linkedin+Glassdoor lets you target marks based on approximate salary.
Oh that's nice to know...but to what end?
So you don't waste time targeting the poors?
Bingo. For example, if you watch Youtube from a very poor country, you might not see any ads.
"Buy our vpn service in $low_income_country and ditch your youtube subscription!" arbitrage opportunity for someone?
This is definitely going on already.
Here's a VPN company advertising "a VPN server located in a region that offers cheaper games, in-app purchases, products, etc." and if other VPN providers don't explicitly advertise this benefit, they know some of their customers are using their product for that reason.
https://www.vpnunlimited.com/help/solutions/saving-with-regi...
Here's a VPN company advertising "a VPN server located in a region that offers cheaper games, in-app purchases, products, etc." and if other VPN providers don't explicitly advertise this benefit, they know some of their customers are using their product for that reason.
https://www.vpnunlimited.com/help/solutions/saving-with-regi...
I'd imagine they're trying to monetize your eyeballs in all of the ways spam usually does: mostly scams and advertising.
One of my coworker looks like a barbie doll. Also for some reason she looks 30 when she’s mid 40.
She also really, really good at her job.
Her profile on LinkedIn looks like what you describe.
She also really, really good at her job.
Her profile on LinkedIn looks like what you describe.
You mean female recruiters? For some reason, all the female recruiters I know (on Linkedin) are rather attractive. Maybe there is some logic behind it.
My brother and his girlfriend are tech recruiters here in London.
They are both very conventionally attractive people, but it's not their image that makes them good at their jobs per se, IMO it's having the confidence and charm of a person who has gone through life always being attractive.
If a less attractive person had that confidence, charm, charisma, whatever you call it - and some do - they would also be successful.
They are both very conventionally attractive people, but it's not their image that makes them good at their jobs per se, IMO it's having the confidence and charm of a person who has gone through life always being attractive.
If a less attractive person had that confidence, charm, charisma, whatever you call it - and some do - they would also be successful.
I wasn't talking about been successfull or not, but I agree with your statement indeed.
Ah, yes, apologies, I had merged your post with another sibling post in my head
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My mind is blown.
Even when the ruse is revealed, many victims are unwilling to let go. The truth triggers an emotional whiplash—the promise of a soulmate, a new, fulfilling life, and mutual trust is suddenly lost, leaving the intense feelings of love behind. Once found, the real man in the photos becomes a surrogate for the fantasy. “Some of them would reach out to me and [say], ‘Now that I know what the real person is like, are you still single?’” Victor said. “‘Can I meet you? Can I FaceTime you?’”
SMH.
Time to retire Cinderella and similar stories.
Even when the ruse is revealed, many victims are unwilling to let go. The truth triggers an emotional whiplash—the promise of a soulmate, a new, fulfilling life, and mutual trust is suddenly lost, leaving the intense feelings of love behind. Once found, the real man in the photos becomes a surrogate for the fantasy. “Some of them would reach out to me and [say], ‘Now that I know what the real person is like, are you still single?’” Victor said. “‘Can I meet you? Can I FaceTime you?’”
SMH.
Time to retire Cinderella and similar stories.
Loneliness is a bad relationship advisor it seems. It's like going to the supermarket with an empty stomach: you end up loading your cart with a lot of crap.
Btw, these scams are a worldwide trend. The wildest case I've read was about a Japanese lady scammed by a "Russian astronaut" seeking $ to pay his "landing fees" for returning to earth to meet her [1]. I've also read in local Greek news for >1 cases of ladies getting scammed by "US soldiers/officers", who at some point claim to be stranded in their deployment and ask for $ so they can travel to meet them in Greece.
[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ad7vn/japan-romance-scam-ru...
Btw, these scams are a worldwide trend. The wildest case I've read was about a Japanese lady scammed by a "Russian astronaut" seeking $ to pay his "landing fees" for returning to earth to meet her [1]. I've also read in local Greek news for >1 cases of ladies getting scammed by "US soldiers/officers", who at some point claim to be stranded in their deployment and ask for $ so they can travel to meet them in Greece.
[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ad7vn/japan-romance-scam-ru...
In addition to technical scams, lots of these relationship types come out of Nigeria and India call centers. During the day the centers sell something legitimate, like web dev or management svcs, but at night, they lock the doors and the scam crew uses the office to fleece victims.
>“‘Can I meet you? Can I FaceTime you?’”
also
>even after he convinced them that they had been scammed, they sometimes wanted to strike up a friendship with him. “I can’t even tell you. I would spend an hour on the phone sometimes talking to these women
So: "Sure. Here's my 900 number".
also
>even after he convinced them that they had been scammed, they sometimes wanted to strike up a friendship with him. “I can’t even tell you. I would spend an hour on the phone sometimes talking to these women
So: "Sure. Here's my 900 number".
In a similar vein to how it is now normal to give personal pronouns, even if you are he/she, we should normalise opsec when online dating, even if you feel it is not needed: if everyone mentions “can I check you are not a scammer and goes through a verification call”, and it is normal it wont be seen as rude or breaking the romance”.
Same should be done for a lot of interactions, such as hiring, employee to employee requests involving money, bank accounts or authorisation, and so on. With deep fakes and AI scamming will get more and more sophisticated and at scale.
Same should be done for a lot of interactions, such as hiring, employee to employee requests involving money, bank accounts or authorisation, and so on. With deep fakes and AI scamming will get more and more sophisticated and at scale.
> it is now normal to give personal pronouns, even if you are he/she
Eagerly waiting for this “new normal” to come to Russia. You see, we have 6 forms of each pronoun. Mine’s are: “он / его / ему / его / им / нём”. Please, remember and use each one correctly. Like:
You blame его. But: you are speaking about нём. Not a single mistake, please.
Eagerly waiting for this “new normal” to come to Russia. You see, we have 6 forms of each pronoun. Mine’s are: “он / его / ему / его / им / нём”. Please, remember and use each one correctly. Like:
You blame его. But: you are speaking about нём. Not a single mistake, please.
In English, do you prefer he or she? And do you prefer that one to 'they'?
Why on Earth would I care? I can be referenced as "he" or "she" only if you are talking about me to somebody else, right? It's not my business to even listen to such talk.
But if you insist - could you please refer to me by Russian pronouns I've just listed. Is it really that much harder to learn 6 short foreign words than some "English" ones like "zee", "vi" and "vim"?
But again, why stop at short ones? If you insist that my pronouns are there for my comfort (but not for your convenience while speaking about me) - could you please refer to me as "they-masters-of-Universe-and-true-electors-of-American-presidents"? So that your listener will know that my gender is "Russian male". It will give me a huge comfort.
But if you insist - could you please refer to me by Russian pronouns I've just listed. Is it really that much harder to learn 6 short foreign words than some "English" ones like "zee", "vi" and "vim"?
But again, why stop at short ones? If you insist that my pronouns are there for my comfort (but not for your convenience while speaking about me) - could you please refer to me as "they-masters-of-Universe-and-true-electors-of-American-presidents"? So that your listener will know that my gender is "Russian male". It will give me a huge comfort.
Well, sometimes your identity is referenced in a group setting while you're part of the group, say when a manager praises your work in a standup: "MikePlacid did a really good job with this feature, you should all be like _". I'm guessing people know which pronoun to use in those situations when talking about you, probably because you regularly broadcast your identity as a Russian male.
The English-speaking world has largely settled on singular 'they' as a catch-all for the small minority that prefers neither he or she. Practically it looks like an extra drop-down option on official forms, and when you meet someone who looks like they don't try to go with a stereotype of any particular gender you can optionally ask them what pronoun they go by.
Those made-up pronouns are a fringe thing, some internet communities will make them into a game. On the other hand, if we met and you preferred we switched to Russian, I would totally try to accommodate that!
The English-speaking world has largely settled on singular 'they' as a catch-all for the small minority that prefers neither he or she. Practically it looks like an extra drop-down option on official forms, and when you meet someone who looks like they don't try to go with a stereotype of any particular gender you can optionally ask them what pronoun they go by.
Those made-up pronouns are a fringe thing, some internet communities will make them into a game. On the other hand, if we met and you preferred we switched to Russian, I would totally try to accommodate that!
My preferred pronouns are 'latefordinner' and 'delayedfordinner'. It's a reference to a very old English joke going 'you can call me almost anything you want - but don't call me late for dinner'. My way of saying the inquirer can even call me late for dinner if they want. I realize this is serious business to some people, but I also want to signal that it is very much not serious business to me.
I am not sure why I have simplified your task in my previous post. It seems you’ve agreed that pronouns exist to make me comfortable when you are speaking about me. Actually they exist to provide you some linguistic comfort when speaking about me. But if you are willing to do some extra work to provide me some imaginary comfort that I do not actually need - who am to stop you?
So, the actual table of my pronouns looks like this:
И (who?) он
Р (whose?) его, него
Д (to whom?) ему, нему
В (whom to blame?) его, него
Т (by whom?) им, ним
П (about whom?) нём
There are 2 phonetical variants of some pronouns. In order to decide which one to use you should translate your sentence into Russian, check phonetical surroundings and use the proper phonetical variant of the proper grammar form of the pronoun.
So: Give it to ему. But: Go to нему.
If people will refuse to do this work of mental translation to Russian and back for my pleasure - do you think we should regulate it and enforce by law?
So, the actual table of my pronouns looks like this:
И (who?) он
Р (whose?) его, него
Д (to whom?) ему, нему
В (whom to blame?) его, него
Т (by whom?) им, ним
П (about whom?) нём
There are 2 phonetical variants of some pronouns. In order to decide which one to use you should translate your sentence into Russian, check phonetical surroundings and use the proper phonetical variant of the proper grammar form of the pronoun.
So: Give it to ему. But: Go to нему.
If people will refuse to do this work of mental translation to Russian and back for my pleasure - do you think we should regulate it and enforce by law?
> Time to retire Cinderella and similar stories.
The article mentions Tindler Swindler, and I can vouch - it's a great film. It is an absolute puzzle at first, cause the man spares no money to trigger a Cinderella in the victims: real charter jet, real high-class hotel, real flowers and gifts. And she has 0 at her bank account - what the man that can burn more money in a day that she makes in a year may potentially want from a poor girl, financially? Then the puzzle is solved (but I will not spoil here).
The film moves slowly and shows how the girls were hooked. And you can clearly see that they have no defense. Absolutely no defense, except to kill Cinderella inside herself, and before the fact at that.
But is it possible or correct to tell a girl "You should never date higher than your own status (whatever it is)"?
The article mentions Tindler Swindler, and I can vouch - it's a great film. It is an absolute puzzle at first, cause the man spares no money to trigger a Cinderella in the victims: real charter jet, real high-class hotel, real flowers and gifts. And she has 0 at her bank account - what the man that can burn more money in a day that she makes in a year may potentially want from a poor girl, financially? Then the puzzle is solved (but I will not spoil here).
The film moves slowly and shows how the girls were hooked. And you can clearly see that they have no defense. Absolutely no defense, except to kill Cinderella inside herself, and before the fact at that.
But is it possible or correct to tell a girl "You should never date higher than your own status (whatever it is)"?
Yes and yes. We've done it in the past for millennia now, and we recognize some will not heed advice regardless. It's a battle between recognizing women are individual agents who can make mistakes and bear responsibility doing so, or seeing them more akin to children.
Frankly, it's a necessity given the opposite is either stripping away rights (no humanitarian person is in favor of that) or somehow squashing every would-be predator (good luck doing that without a massive false positive population). We already see the latter happening today and many are unhappy about it.
The same is answered to people in similar situations the moment they become adults. Either we revisit all of that or keep the status quo.
Frankly, it's a necessity given the opposite is either stripping away rights (no humanitarian person is in favor of that) or somehow squashing every would-be predator (good luck doing that without a massive false positive population). We already see the latter happening today and many are unhappy about it.
The same is answered to people in similar situations the moment they become adults. Either we revisit all of that or keep the status quo.
I don't think it's correct. There would be much less incentive for men to seek status if it didn't widen his dating pool, and a huge amount of our society's value comes from men seeking to gain status legitimately.
I think the problem comes from attraction being hackable via a particular kind of hypernormal stimulus. It should be easier to distinguish a psychopath putting on a show from someone who is stably or meta-stably in a higher status bracket than it is. People caught in these kinds of webs mention all sorts of red flags they failed to pay proper attention to after the fact, so it's not like there's no difference. And yet, we're not evolved to pay attention to the warning signs. On the bright side, the evolutionary pressure to pay attention now is pretty great.
I think the problem comes from attraction being hackable via a particular kind of hypernormal stimulus. It should be easier to distinguish a psychopath putting on a show from someone who is stably or meta-stably in a higher status bracket than it is. People caught in these kinds of webs mention all sorts of red flags they failed to pay proper attention to after the fact, so it's not like there's no difference. And yet, we're not evolved to pay attention to the warning signs. On the bright side, the evolutionary pressure to pay attention now is pretty great.
You can always tell them, however most are told from youth that they should always marry upwards. Your experience may vary.
The victim in Tindler Swindler was not trying to marry, upwards or otherwise. She was just... tindlering. And got this charming man with "Let's fly for a weekend in Paris on my private jet".
I do not see any possibility to resist. Yes, "It's too good to be true". But the jet was real...
I do not see any possibility to resist. Yes, "It's too good to be true". But the jet was real...
The bridges being sold are real, too. The scam only works if they build some kind of relationship, whether it ends in marriage or just in a committed relationship (moving in together etc) is irrelevant.
If she was "just tindlering" (I really like the English language for the ability to verbify everything), it wouldn't have, because she's not taking out loans for each guy from tinder she spends an evening or a night with.
If she was "just tindlering" (I really like the English language for the ability to verbify everything), it wouldn't have, because she's not taking out loans for each guy from tinder she spends an evening or a night with.
Yes, but the desire to form a relationship (and maybe even to form it “upwards”) - it’s a hard wired feature of a brain I believe. Woman’s brain especially. And I wouldn’t say that this wiring is unhealthy. But that guy just triggered it, “professionally”.
So, in her place - when to tell yourself to stop? Certainly not at flying by a private jet to Paris. Problem is she is hooked after that. Like yes, it is nice thing to have all these quarters dumped on your lap in a casino, but that’s exactly the proper time to leave. We had nice night in Paris, bye! Still, casinos exist and prosper. Dzin-dzin-dzin! - somebody won, why not you?
Hard stop I think should come after him asking her for money. “Our casino is experiencing some financial difficulties, could we please borrow some of your savings so that the entertainment could continue?” But we should show each girl Tinder Swindler for her to be able to do this, to stand up and leave at this time. Cause she has already placed herself into a relationship, yes. But probably wouldn’t help anyway, like teaching math has not bankrupt casinos.
So, in her place - when to tell yourself to stop? Certainly not at flying by a private jet to Paris. Problem is she is hooked after that. Like yes, it is nice thing to have all these quarters dumped on your lap in a casino, but that’s exactly the proper time to leave. We had nice night in Paris, bye! Still, casinos exist and prosper. Dzin-dzin-dzin! - somebody won, why not you?
Hard stop I think should come after him asking her for money. “Our casino is experiencing some financial difficulties, could we please borrow some of your savings so that the entertainment could continue?” But we should show each girl Tinder Swindler for her to be able to do this, to stand up and leave at this time. Cause she has already placed herself into a relationship, yes. But probably wouldn’t help anyway, like teaching math has not bankrupt casinos.
I completely agree, and I'm sure it's hard to call it when emotions are running high. Reading about it, it often sounds insane what people fall for (someone in the thread mentioned a Japanese story where a woman allegedly believed she was talking to a Russian astronaut who was on the ISS at the time and needed the money to pay the landing fees!)
It's a crazy work, but you make a good point that casinos thrive while everyone preaches that the house always wins and the gambler always loses. Even with that knowledge, I suppose it would be easy enough to say "those other people got tinder-swindled, but I'd notice if that was happening to me".
It's a crazy work, but you make a good point that casinos thrive while everyone preaches that the house always wins and the gambler always loses. Even with that knowledge, I suppose it would be easy enough to say "those other people got tinder-swindled, but I'd notice if that was happening to me".
>My mind is blown.
It shouldn't be surprising that the ~50% of the population that is stereotyped over centuries as having an unhealthy relationship with "being wrong in a relationship" and "not letting things go" makes good on that stereotype frequently enough to be worth an anecdote in a Vice article.
It shouldn't be surprising that the ~50% of the population that is stereotyped over centuries as having an unhealthy relationship with "being wrong in a relationship" and "not letting things go" makes good on that stereotype frequently enough to be worth an anecdote in a Vice article.
I rewatched the movie 'Jabberwocky' recently, which has as one of the comedic story elements one or more characters that are stuck in their own particular romantic view of the world.
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Upsetting that in an article all about photos being used to scam people, there's not a single sample of an offending image!
I mean, I think I get why. But still, it's the first thing I want to see when I read a story like this.
I mean, I think I get why. But still, it's the first thing I want to see when I read a story like this.
Yeah, I had to do a google to guess what the images might look like. https://www.google.com/search?q=James+Scott+Geras&tbm=isch
Haha, yeah my thought process reading the article was basically:
- Why aren't there any photo examples?
- OK, I get why not
- But still. Couldn't they find a way to add some photos?
- Why aren't there any photo examples?
- OK, I get why not
- But still. Couldn't they find a way to add some photos?
https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/
Pick a few from there?
Pick a few from there?
Honestly it might be helpful for these guys to have a story about their situation in a relatively large publication. Just send it to people each time it happens. Works without pictures I guess
As a tech guy, I would write some web pages with my image and textual explanations of the scam, then SEO optimise them for reverse image search. Hypothetically, of course, since I will never need to do it for myself as I am definitely not handsome enough.
I wonder why the guys didn't want their faces in the article? That way any reverse image lookup could find the story, the victims would know without getting in touch with the guys, and the scammers would move on to other guys' faces. That would solve the problem for those guys at least!
I wonder why the guys didn't want their faces in the article? That way any reverse image lookup could find the story, the victims would know without getting in touch with the guys, and the scammers would move on to other guys' faces. That would solve the problem for those guys at least!
> I wonder why the guys didn't want their faces in the article?
These guys get frequent death threats. It's reliving trauma.
> That would solve the problem for those guys at least!
That's how therapy is supposed to work. You just asked "why don't people just face their fears in therapy RIGHT NOW and get it over with?" The answer is "because people have emotions".
Sadly, emotions are also the reason these fraud schemes work.
These guys get frequent death threats. It's reliving trauma.
> That would solve the problem for those guys at least!
That's how therapy is supposed to work. You just asked "why don't people just face their fears in therapy RIGHT NOW and get it over with?" The answer is "because people have emotions".
Sadly, emotions are also the reason these fraud schemes work.
Most people don't even know that reverse image search exists.
Presumably all the women contacting the photo guys in the article are aware of it.
The real issue is that the women aren't going to believe it if it doesn't link to a social media profile or similar, or if they don't talk to the person, and the scammer would easily explain the website away if they were aware of it.
The real issue is that the women aren't going to believe it if it doesn't link to a social media profile or similar, or if they don't talk to the person, and the scammer would easily explain the website away if they were aware of it.
> Presumably all the women contacting the photo guys in the article are aware of it.
Point of clarification: in most instances, it's not the victim that does the reverse image search, but some friend/family member who is trying to assist the victim after the fraud has already happened.
Point of clarification: in most instances, it's not the victim that does the reverse image search, but some friend/family member who is trying to assist the victim after the fraud has already happened.
The article explains that the women often have a hard time letting go after realizing they’ve been scammed.
Things I didn't realize I should be thankful for #2,500,231:
My face will never ever be used for a romance scam.
My face will never ever be used for a romance scam.
Don’t sell yourself short. Perhaps your face, like mine, can be used kind of like the intentionally implausible stories of Nigerian scams.
My face looks too much like Jack Black to be taken seriously enough by a potential romance scam victim.
This is not the greatest romance scam in the world. No, this is just a tribute.
Just a matter of opinion!
You'd be surprised how much thirst there is for Jack Black in certain corners of the internet. Admittedly a lot to do with his apparently genial nature and general goodness but still.
> My face will never ever be used for a romance scam.
Imagine your disappointment if you ever find out that it was, and it did better than you ever did.
Imagine your disappointment if you ever find out that it was, and it did better than you ever did.
Soon enough, DALL-E may be able to tweak any face to make it scam-worthy, and GPT will be able to complement it to pluck the heartstrings just so
It would be easier to start from scratch.
Yes making my face look good would be NP-hard
I have had to work so hard not to make a sexual innuendo with that comment.
There's some 20 years of lead time, but if you're willing to wait and have the capital to scale up early, after those two decades you'll have a money printer.
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> “‘You shouldn’t have anything on social media. People are using your pictures.’ And I’m like, ‘Excuse me. I’m not gonna move to a deserted island or live my life as a monk. That’s just not gonna happen.’”
Not posting pictures of yourself online seems to be a pretty reasonable, sensible preventative measure for anyone. I don’t (to my knowledge) have pictures of myself floating around social media, and I don’t consider myself to be “living my life as a monk.”
Not posting pictures of yourself online seems to be a pretty reasonable, sensible preventative measure for anyone. I don’t (to my knowledge) have pictures of myself floating around social media, and I don’t consider myself to be “living my life as a monk.”
I don't reckon the intended meaning is that it is literally impossible, but that it is an unfair and likely ineffective way to prevent romance scamming. His visage is used because they have already farmed the pictures, probably because there were quite a few available so enough to titrate them out over several weeks. So it doesn't really make sense that he now has the duty to remove his online presence, which is important to many people's expression of themselves. In fact, the ability to find him online probably has ended a number of these scams and prevented the women from losing even more money.
Not really since anyone else can post a picture of you. Work dos, nights out, even incidental picture of you in someone elses tourist photo. Maybe you wont be mentioned by name in the photo but maybe you will.
Other than for a new driver's license and a passport, I haven't even taken a picture of myself since 2014. I do some fantasy cosplay, though, so have had pictures taken of me from that, though I'm not sure many would recognize me.
I know it’s sad and scary to get death threats.
But having a gay guy have a wide following of women in love with him is hilarious
But having a gay guy have a wide following of women in love with him is hilarious
> But having a gay guy have a wide following of women in love with him is hilarious
Women loved Rock Hudson. I think there are a number of gay women stars that are quite popular with men.
Social media is very weird. People can have entire friendships, romances, and work relationships, without meeting the other person. I had a friend whose wife left him for an online relationship. She got to the other state, met the guy (it was not a scam), and then things didn't work out. By then, however, it was too late.
Best thing that could have happened to him. He's been happily married to another person for many years.
Women loved Rock Hudson. I think there are a number of gay women stars that are quite popular with men.
Social media is very weird. People can have entire friendships, romances, and work relationships, without meeting the other person. I had a friend whose wife left him for an online relationship. She got to the other state, met the guy (it was not a scam), and then things didn't work out. By then, however, it was too late.
Best thing that could have happened to him. He's been happily married to another person for many years.
> Best thing that could have happened to him.
Yup. IME, the best way for a spouse to leave you is for someone else.
When they have someone that they're in a hurry to settle down with, they're unlikely to argue over splitting of assets, or custody of pets, or access to children, because they want the process over as soon as possible.
When they are leaving you because they are unhappy with you, then they'll argue over every single petty and trivial thing, and drag out the process for two years.
Sure, it may hurt more when you find out that they've been cheating, but that will still be less painful when they take out their frustration with you using the kids visitation schedule.
Yup. IME, the best way for a spouse to leave you is for someone else.
When they have someone that they're in a hurry to settle down with, they're unlikely to argue over splitting of assets, or custody of pets, or access to children, because they want the process over as soon as possible.
When they are leaving you because they are unhappy with you, then they'll argue over every single petty and trivial thing, and drag out the process for two years.
Sure, it may hurt more when you find out that they've been cheating, but that will still be less painful when they take out their frustration with you using the kids visitation schedule.
no, my Dad and Mom split because Mom found out Dad had been having an affair, had gotten HIV and made a baby with another woman, and they're still fighting over small stuff, literally 19 years later.
Just don't get married, ever.
Just don't get married, ever.
It doesn't surprise me. Especially among men over 40, on average gay men pay much more attention to their appearance, grooming, etc. than straight men, because men whether gay or straight tend to be more visually oriented than women and looks matter to the people they want to attract. Of course like any generalization there are many exceptions to this.
I agree there are many exceptions and we have to be careful about generalizing.
It's an interesting explanation. (That gay men pay more attention to their appearance than straight men because they want to be attractive to men rather than women, and men both gay and straight are more visually oriented than women.)
This theory would predict that gay women would pay much less attention to their own appearance than straight women do (since the women they want to attract care less about looks than men do).
Do you think that's the case?
It's an interesting explanation. (That gay men pay more attention to their appearance than straight men because they want to be attractive to men rather than women, and men both gay and straight are more visually oriented than women.)
This theory would predict that gay women would pay much less attention to their own appearance than straight women do (since the women they want to attract care less about looks than men do).
Do you think that's the case?
mmm... from what I've seen gay women (i.e. lesbians) tend to have rather noticable appearances - either rather butch/masculine, or somewhat 'freaky'.
There are exceptions, where they just go for "comfy", however.
There are exceptions, where they just go for "comfy", however.
>among men over 40, on average gay men pay much more attention to their appearance, grooming, etc. than straight men
Men over 40 do not need to pay any attention to their appearance, grooming etc. They just need to not wear a wedding ring. (Ask me how I know...)
Men over 40 do not need to pay any attention to their appearance, grooming etc. They just need to not wear a wedding ring. (Ask me how I know...)
Women may take interest in pictures of a well-groomed gay man.
But they would absolutely NOT tolerate their partner actually spend more time fussing about his appearance than them. Instant ick. Feminine behaviour.
But they would absolutely NOT tolerate their partner actually spend more time fussing about his appearance than them. Instant ick. Feminine behaviour.
Of interest:
"The male voice, tinged with a Southern-sounding accent, stopped him cold: I’m going to slit your throat."
What would you think if Vice had written:
"The male voice, tinged with a Black-sounding accent...."
"The male voice, tinged with an Asian-sounding accent...."
"The male voice, tinged with an Italian-sounding accent...."
Why of course you'd think "That publication is hate mongering! They're trying to subtly guide the reader to bad thoughts about their target!"
Which is exactly true.
What would you think if Vice had written:
"The male voice, tinged with a Black-sounding accent...."
"The male voice, tinged with an Asian-sounding accent...."
"The male voice, tinged with an Italian-sounding accent...."
Why of course you'd think "That publication is hate mongering! They're trying to subtly guide the reader to bad thoughts about their target!"
Which is exactly true.
"Remember kids, discrimination is wrong, unless X" ~ practically every society in history believing they can determine X and would scoff at both their ancestors and predecessors.
Vice just having a little slip of the tongue and showing what's really up.
Vice just having a little slip of the tongue and showing what's really up.
Interesting and telling indeed. A southern US accent is acceptable to portray as threatening (or unintelligent or otherwise villainous). I would say the Russian accent is similarly A-OK to use for such prejudice. Racial stereotyping is exempt from being considered hate speech, it seems, when the target is the Bad People™.
From a technical perspective why isn't this a solved problem?
Identity will always be a difficult problem, but being able to own your own face / likeness by demonstrating it should be technically possible right?
Forced visual "captchas" something like "please take a photo standing on one foot and your finger pointed at your nose"
Then once you own your likeness with "faceID" likeness similarity isn't it then easy to monitor the images uploaded to the profile or am I completely missing something?
Identity will always be a difficult problem, but being able to own your own face / likeness by demonstrating it should be technically possible right?
Forced visual "captchas" something like "please take a photo standing on one foot and your finger pointed at your nose"
Then once you own your likeness with "faceID" likeness similarity isn't it then easy to monitor the images uploaded to the profile or am I completely missing something?
Because this isn't inherently a technological problem, it's a loneliness and emotional vulnerability problem.
I guarantee you that scammers will find ways to convince their victims regardless of photos being verified or not.
I guarantee you that scammers will find ways to convince their victims regardless of photos being verified or not.
It’s a question of cost. Facebook has a billion users, if they can save $0.10 per user someone just got a promotion.
Here’s a related question: every day, people lose access to their Google or Facebook accounts. This could easily be solved with some process where they could get a third party (librarian, notary, police or DMV, etc.) to do an ID check. Nobody does this because the cost would be greater than zero.
Here’s a related question: every day, people lose access to their Google or Facebook accounts. This could easily be solved with some process where they could get a third party (librarian, notary, police or DMV, etc.) to do an ID check. Nobody does this because the cost would be greater than zero.
I think there are some privacy issues here you're not addressing. Like exactly who gets to be the authority on face ID? What if it gets leaked or hacked?
Not to mention the near future triviality of image generating AI being able to just recreate what you're asking it for a "capchat". I mean once it figures out hands that is.
Not to mention the near future triviality of image generating AI being able to just recreate what you're asking it for a "capchat". I mean once it figures out hands that is.
So are the scammers already using deepfakes for this, or is that still to come? A video chat is already a pretty obvious thing to do in a long distance relationship, so it will be weird if they can't do it (building an orphanage in Africa is a pretty good excuse, but it won't last forever). If it's possible, they'll definitely want to be able to deepfake video chats.
You are thinking about it all wrong. Any effort to create deep fakes would be a waste of effort for the con artists.
They already know that (1) they want to avoid any type of verification attempts by the victim and (2) the relationship with each victim has a timer.
The attractive picture is just a lure (like in fishing). It only matters for the initial hook. All effort after the initial contact is directed towards building a story/narrative of the profile and latching onto the victim's emotions.
Deepfakes aren't needed. Until the con saturates the supply of victims, these cons don't need to evolve.
They already know that (1) they want to avoid any type of verification attempts by the victim and (2) the relationship with each victim has a timer.
The attractive picture is just a lure (like in fishing). It only matters for the initial hook. All effort after the initial contact is directed towards building a story/narrative of the profile and latching onto the victim's emotions.
Deepfakes aren't needed. Until the con saturates the supply of victims, these cons don't need to evolve.
I think it is hard to generate multiple deepfake images of the same “person”.
Not any more - check out dreambooth. You can train a stable diffusion model to generate images of a specific person or object quite easily now. It's well within the realm of AI art enthusiasts, even those with no technical experience.
https://dreambooth.github.io/
https://dreambooth.github.io/
I think about what I would do if I were in the situation of these men. If possible, I wouldn't engage with scam victims at all. This sounds impossible though because there are those situations where your workplace security team or relatives get involved. The scary thing is how this scam can happen anywhere there is a chat function, such as Words With Friends.
One argument for engaging with them is that you are more likely to get some warning of a threat or head off a threat if someone sounded serious about showing up at your door.
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I've always got scammers trying to get to me on Twitter. Once, I went down the road a bit to see what would happen. So, so boring. No conversational skill, no chemistry, just whoever happened to be working the shift at the time. I did wonder if the girl in the pictures was associated with the gang somehow, or just a random victim, as in the article.
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For me, the most fascinating part is about women refusing to accept they've been scammed or wanting a relationship with the men whose pictures were stolen, even though some of them are gay.
It is quite similar to cult followers like QAnon. They want to believe desperately on what is comforting discarding what is reasonable.
My Brazilian family of Bolsonaro supporters camping in front of barracks demanding a coup-d'etat is an example of it, similar to Republicans that believe in the Big Lie.
Most people love comforting and convenient lies and don't like uncomfortable truths.
It is quite similar to cult followers like QAnon. They want to believe desperately on what is comforting discarding what is reasonable.
My Brazilian family of Bolsonaro supporters camping in front of barracks demanding a coup-d'etat is an example of it, similar to Republicans that believe in the Big Lie.
Most people love comforting and convenient lies and don't like uncomfortable truths.
I guess a reason is the time they spent having conversations with that person. If you talked for a long time you are emotionally invested and don't want to let go anymore.
I think you are conflating System 1 and System 2 thinking (from Kahneman's _Thinking Fast and Slow_ [1]). Frauds typically work by triggering our System 1 ("lizard brain", containing our emotions and our innate mate selection/attraction) which selectively / temporarily disables our System 2 (cognitive / rational faculties). We have words to describe the abstractions in the mind ("ego", "defense mechanism") which form filters that prevent information from passing System 1 into System 2 unless our mind is open to accepting it. The entire point of these frauds is to trigger System 1 of the victim.
This article[2] was eye-opening for me in helping me understand how the brain filters information before it can reach System 2. You probably notice it when you talk to people and they reject / deflect facts that disconfirm their priors.
While I agree with you about the {QAnon, The Big Lie, Bolsonaro protesters} examples, I think people (including myself) severely overestimate _our own_ ability to withstand something untrue that tickles our confirmation bias. We all have these features, only some people have better control over their System 1 filters.
I'm fascinated by these topics because (1) I work in cybersecurity and (2) I have family members that fell into QAnon + The Big Lie. Learning about _Street Epistemology_[3] has been really interesting to help me better understand not only many of these belief systems, but how discussing them in selective ways can avoid the filters/defenses of System 1.
[1] https://suebehaviouraldesign.com/kahneman-fast-slow-thinking...
[2] https://eriktorenberg.substack.com/p/truth-status-and-tribes
[3] https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology
This article[2] was eye-opening for me in helping me understand how the brain filters information before it can reach System 2. You probably notice it when you talk to people and they reject / deflect facts that disconfirm their priors.
While I agree with you about the {QAnon, The Big Lie, Bolsonaro protesters} examples, I think people (including myself) severely overestimate _our own_ ability to withstand something untrue that tickles our confirmation bias. We all have these features, only some people have better control over their System 1 filters.
I'm fascinated by these topics because (1) I work in cybersecurity and (2) I have family members that fell into QAnon + The Big Lie. Learning about _Street Epistemology_[3] has been really interesting to help me better understand not only many of these belief systems, but how discussing them in selective ways can avoid the filters/defenses of System 1.
[1] https://suebehaviouraldesign.com/kahneman-fast-slow-thinking...
[2] https://eriktorenberg.substack.com/p/truth-status-and-tribes
[3] https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology
> I think you are conflating System 1 and System 2 thinking (from Kahneman's _Thinking Fast and Slow_ [1]).
Agree. Very good point. Thanks.
Agree. Very good point. Thanks.
"wanting a relationship with the men whose pictures were stolen"
This is the plot of 'Love Hard' with Jimmy O. Yang.
This is the plot of 'Love Hard' with Jimmy O. Yang.
The woman calling the guy her fiance is pretty sad and a total failure on her parents' behalf.
You dont get engaged with or attempt to marry someone you've never met in person.
You dont get engaged with or attempt to marry someone you've never met in person.
There's a good Netflix documentary about Manti Te'o, the football player who famously got catfished while he was playing at Notre Dame. It made national news when his "girlfriend" passed away. He seemed to have a good upbringing, it's wild what gullible or desperate people can get sucked into.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manti_Te'o#Catfishing_incident
Untold: The Girlfriend Who Didn't Exist https://www.netflix.com/title/81580141
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manti_Te'o#Catfishing_incident
Untold: The Girlfriend Who Didn't Exist https://www.netflix.com/title/81580141
I watched bits and pieces of this because my wife was into it, and it was absolutely infuriating. The catfisher went to increasingly ludicrous lengths to hide the sham, including getting their cousin to take a photo holding a piece of paper with their name or the current date or something like that. And the whole time, they KNEW they were in too deep but they couldn't help themselves. It wasn't a scam for money, it was just a multi-year cry for help.
According the article Geras' profile was used to attract older divorced & widowed women, so I doubt the parents had much input.
Hope and love make people do wacky things.
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beware of vices
Earlier than that, it was also considered proper etiquette to ask before taking someone's photo.
There's been a huge culture shift and some of the outcomes are disheartening but quite predictable.
...little recourse other than to continuously report fake profiles across social media platforms
If they don't take down your fraudulent likeness or their efforts toward that end are a joke, hire a lawyer and put them in touch with the owners of the site.