The design of in-car climate controls has gone backward(theturnsignalblog.com)
theturnsignalblog.com
The design of in-car climate controls has gone backward
https://www.theturnsignalblog.com/blog/climate-control-design/
98 comments
The problem is modern attempts to birfurcate UX into silos of efficiency-agnostic design art + implementation-only engineering.
If you call designers artists, remove objective KPIs, and give them free reign, you get one-button mice. Similarly, if you let engineers build something, you end up with git's cli.
In contrast, design and use been studied as a unified discipline since the early 1900s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_and_motion_study
Taking decades to reinvent a preexisting organizational wheel is why "Humble" should be a corporate value in every company: learn from the past.
I drive a 2015 Hyundai Genesis. Why? Because I test drove recent Infinities and Mercedes (and I can't stand Lexus' grill). Knobs with tactile bumps work.
> Social network VK offered music playing, but over the last 5-6 years the number of taps it takes to start playing grew from 3 to 6 or 8 if you need a particular playlist
(Cue MySpace laughing in the corner, smugly rocking zero-touch autoplay since the early-00s)
If you call designers artists, remove objective KPIs, and give them free reign, you get one-button mice. Similarly, if you let engineers build something, you end up with git's cli.
In contrast, design and use been studied as a unified discipline since the early 1900s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_and_motion_study
Taking decades to reinvent a preexisting organizational wheel is why "Humble" should be a corporate value in every company: learn from the past.
I drive a 2015 Hyundai Genesis. Why? Because I test drove recent Infinities and Mercedes (and I can't stand Lexus' grill). Knobs with tactile bumps work.
> Social network VK offered music playing, but over the last 5-6 years the number of taps it takes to start playing grew from 3 to 6 or 8 if you need a particular playlist
(Cue MySpace laughing in the corner, smugly rocking zero-touch autoplay since the early-00s)
> If you call designers artists, remove objective KPIs, and give them free reign, you get one-button mice. Similarly, if you let engineers build something, you end up with git's cli.
Am I in the wrong to think both of these are plenty functional to the point I like them?
A one button mouse functions a lot like a touchbad when you factor in meta keys (at least to my memory -- I've only ever used one in conjunction with schooling years due to low-Apple footprint). And having learned git cli recently, it seems to make sense to me.
But I agree generally -- silo boundaries can lead to poor results due to ignoring second order effects and holistic user experience (your users aren't siloed).
Am I in the wrong to think both of these are plenty functional to the point I like them?
A one button mouse functions a lot like a touchbad when you factor in meta keys (at least to my memory -- I've only ever used one in conjunction with schooling years due to low-Apple footprint). And having learned git cli recently, it seems to make sense to me.
But I agree generally -- silo boundaries can lead to poor results due to ignoring second order effects and holistic user experience (your users aren't siloed).
Regarding the optimal number of buttons on mice, I'd respectfully observe that the average number of human fingers on a hand is 5.
And as for git cli, I have no problem with it (conceptually or practically), but I also accept that most people aren't us.
It's moderately difficult to build something that's perfect for yourself: it's much harder to build something that's optimal for everyone not-you.
And as for git cli, I have no problem with it (conceptually or practically), but I also accept that most people aren't us.
It's moderately difficult to build something that's perfect for yourself: it's much harder to build something that's optimal for everyone not-you.
I used Mercurial CLI in 2010-2016, before finally having to completely switch to git. I almost never had to memorize or look hg commands up. In Git, I routinely need to google that same answer on SO for flags. I do understand that it's the real inner machinery, and back in 2009 I did read how git works, but still cli is hard to remember.
In some ways, the Git CLI is easier: whatever you're trying to do, the command you need is always "checkout".
Mobile stabbed the scroll bar but SPAs and infinite scroll put the nail in their coffin.
My other pet peeve triggered by your transit app comment is creeping privacy intrusion. I use a private DNS and can barely go a week without having to tweak my allow-list because an app that use to work fine now is blocked because they added yet another tracker. Looking at you Park Chicago, CTA apps, and seemingly every public service app I’ve ever used.
My other pet peeve triggered by your transit app comment is creeping privacy intrusion. I use a private DNS and can barely go a week without having to tweak my allow-list because an app that use to work fine now is blocked because they added yet another tracker. Looking at you Park Chicago, CTA apps, and seemingly every public service app I’ve ever used.
None of these reasons are exclusive to touchscreens, you haven't really justified why the touchscreen results in a worse experience. Even the scrollbar example, phones have those still, they just aren't the huge glossy things of windows XP. Or the idea that feature creep requires more items on the screen, when the reality is different, features get dropped and more things are hidden under different tabs. Which is a problem itself, but not the one you're describing.
I do agree however regarding accessibility. But again, this problem exists no matter the interface. Old people aren't thriving on desktops, they're struggling to manage flip phones with actual large buttons on them. We need to do more here, but I sincerely doubt changing the interface will solve the problem entirely.
I do agree however regarding accessibility. But again, this problem exists no matter the interface. Old people aren't thriving on desktops, they're struggling to manage flip phones with actual large buttons on them. We need to do more here, but I sincerely doubt changing the interface will solve the problem entirely.
My Ford Edge has almost all the important controls accessible only through the touchscreen. If I'm in reverse for example I lose all ability to adjust the temperature, fan, or seat temperature. Its terrible. Adjusting the seat warmers requires moving an onscreen slider which is weirdly overly sensitive and yet at the same time laggy. Adjusting it while driving is almost impossible without looking at the screen which is unsafe and absolutely unnecessary.
I bought a new car last year, and I didn't set out to buy the cheapest car on the lot, but I ended up buying an ecosport partially because I really liked that it has buttons for everything. This is probably because the car came stock with a 4" screen (the minimum required for the backup camera), but it's really nice having physical buttons for climate control, since pretty much everything else I looked at had touchscreen UI for nearly everything.
Plus, thanks to the excellent folks at cyanlabs[0], $150 worth of parts from a junkyard and I was able to get the larger screen so I can use Android Auto with the map at a usable size. I don't mind the touchscreen UI for something like selecting audio or map destination, since I can do that while parked. The only feature/option I actually miss from a higher optioned car is seatwarmers, which I'll probably add before next winter.
So yes, part of the reason I ended up in the cheapest car they sell is the better UI of the controls (that, and I liked the smaller physical size of the vehicle). I ended up spending ~20k less than I was originally budgeting for the edge. Sure, this is anecdotal and I realize I may be an outlier, but the UI was a major part of the purchase decision and I know enough about the industry to confidently state that most of that extra money is pure profit margin for Ford. BOM cost on an optioned up Edge isn't significantly higher than the base ecosport, so that is way worse profit margin for them.
Edit: forgot link [0] https://cyanlabs.net/applications/syn3updater/
Plus, thanks to the excellent folks at cyanlabs[0], $150 worth of parts from a junkyard and I was able to get the larger screen so I can use Android Auto with the map at a usable size. I don't mind the touchscreen UI for something like selecting audio or map destination, since I can do that while parked. The only feature/option I actually miss from a higher optioned car is seatwarmers, which I'll probably add before next winter.
So yes, part of the reason I ended up in the cheapest car they sell is the better UI of the controls (that, and I liked the smaller physical size of the vehicle). I ended up spending ~20k less than I was originally budgeting for the edge. Sure, this is anecdotal and I realize I may be an outlier, but the UI was a major part of the purchase decision and I know enough about the industry to confidently state that most of that extra money is pure profit margin for Ford. BOM cost on an optioned up Edge isn't significantly higher than the base ecosport, so that is way worse profit margin for them.
Edit: forgot link [0] https://cyanlabs.net/applications/syn3updater/
>If I'm in reverse for example I lose all ability to adjust the temperature, fan, or seat temperature
For every single millisecond after you check your backup camera to make sure there's no kid in the blind spot behind your car, your whole-ass body should be rotated with you head looking over your shoulder and out the rear window.
Unless you have a monster SUV that you can't see out of anyways, in which case use the screen.
In either case the driver should be spending an exact and precise 0.0% of the time a vehicle is in reverse manipulating any control not related to steering and acceleration.
"But what if the passeng.." Don't. Please don't.
For every single millisecond after you check your backup camera to make sure there's no kid in the blind spot behind your car, your whole-ass body should be rotated with you head looking over your shoulder and out the rear window.
Unless you have a monster SUV that you can't see out of anyways, in which case use the screen.
In either case the driver should be spending an exact and precise 0.0% of the time a vehicle is in reverse manipulating any control not related to steering and acceleration.
"But what if the passeng.." Don't. Please don't.
What if I stop the car entirely while I perform the adjustments? "Put it in park" I hear you say. Tedious, and doesn't always work anyway - many cars leave you with a full-screen reversing camera even once you're moving forwards until you get above 5mph or whatever. And what if I want to stop and adjust my side mirrors to see better, and those are adjusted via the touch screen? (I'm looking at you, Tesla.)
Guess what? I can happily reach down and adjust a real temperature dial by touch while looking at a reversing camera, without looking at that dial or being distracted, in the same way that I can do that while driving forwards. It's the touch screen that's the problem here.
Guess what? I can happily reach down and adjust a real temperature dial by touch while looking at a reversing camera, without looking at that dial or being distracted, in the same way that I can do that while driving forwards. It's the touch screen that's the problem here.
What really? I find the side mirrors and the backup cam 10X better for lining up the car perfectly than doing the oldschool look-over-shoulder arm-over passenger seat thing.
Especially since the backup cam doesn't change in perspective as I crane my head to get the side of the car in view in the sideview mirrors.
Especially since the backup cam doesn't change in perspective as I crane my head to get the side of the car in view in the sideview mirrors.
That's one way to do it, but not the only safe and effective way. Also some injuries will prevent turning the body around in the seat.
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Here’s a thing I realized about climate controls that is NOT intuitive - it is not about the temperature/humidity in the car or room! That’s only an accident - it’s about how the person/people feel.
So the older cars work closer to that because they basically have the options “blow hot/cold air on me” instead of “try to maintain this temperature”.
I can be quite comfortable in a wide range of temperatures if I can get a blast of cold or hot air “on demand”.
So the older cars work closer to that because they basically have the options “blow hot/cold air on me” instead of “try to maintain this temperature”.
I can be quite comfortable in a wide range of temperatures if I can get a blast of cold or hot air “on demand”.
Car temperature controls can work really well, but they need to account for IR radiation through the windows. If the sun is shinning in my lap the comfortable temperature for the air goes down, if it’s snowing outside the comfortable temperature goes up.
On top of this if it’s cold outside I may be wearing very warm clothes in my car and not actually want room temperature.
On top of this if it’s cold outside I may be wearing very warm clothes in my car and not actually want room temperature.
I have had several cars with automatic temperature control and there is a lot of variability in the quality of the systems. My 06 F150 the system was terrible always having to adjust the temp up and down, but my 07 BMW X3 I set the temperature and never had to adjust it year round. My current vehicle is a 2022 Ford Maverick and the climate control is pretty consistent. If I am wearing a jacket in the car it is set to 66 and if I am not it is 68.
Good automatics have an IR/heat sensor on the dashboard, and use that information in their calculations. I know that Saab already had them in the 90s.
Indeed. During winter, my SO turns the temperature to max and adjusts fan speed to comfort.
This is because she wants hot air on her hands, and in order to get enough hot air on her hands with a "normal" set-point temperature, the fans must be turned up enough that the wind chill makes her feel cold.
Instead she prefers very hot air, but at a limited rate.
This is because she wants hot air on her hands, and in order to get enough hot air on her hands with a "normal" set-point temperature, the fans must be turned up enough that the wind chill makes her feel cold.
Instead she prefers very hot air, but at a limited rate.
I have a little fan on my desk both at work and at home because while I may not be too hot or cold, I do like a bit of airflow. I'm sure sitting still causes a local buildup of CO2 or something, plus mental work needs a lot of oxygen and some cooling I'm sure.
I had an eight-gen (2005–2012) Honda Civic, and honestly I've never seen a car with better ergonomics. Climate and radio controls high up and within easy reach of the driver, different sized/shaped knobs so you can differentiate by touch, big digital speedo and GPS screen high up so they're practically at the base of the windscreen. I drove a ninth-generation Civic while mine was being serviced, and even that felt like a step back.
There must be some bummed out designers in these companies who know better than to mediate all these tactile controls.
Part of it is a cost thing. Automotive grade buttons are really, really expensive. Honda probably pays $1-10 each for a button or rotary dial, a touchscreen is $30-70 depending on size. Plus, backup cameras are legally mandated, so they need to include a screen anyway, difference between a touch & plain screen is likely negligible, on the order of maybe $0-10. (costs are estimated and include the molding & plastics, which drive the cost way up).
I would imagine there is significant accounting pressure to push as much as they can onto the screen. There are definitely a contingent of designers who are upset by this trend, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is also a contingent of people in the design department who advocate for this due to the 'cleaner' look and are wanting to emulate Tesla.
I would imagine there is significant accounting pressure to push as much as they can onto the screen. There are definitely a contingent of designers who are upset by this trend, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is also a contingent of people in the design department who advocate for this due to the 'cleaner' look and are wanting to emulate Tesla.
Totally. Plus more pieces to fit on an assembly line, etc.
Ironic that requiring cameras to improve safety has potentially done the opposite by killing off physical controls.
Ironic that requiring cameras to improve safety has potentially done the opposite by killing off physical controls.
Nearly all well intentioned laws have quite serious negative downstream effects, because the world is vastly more complicated and interconnected then commonly expected.
Yea - I'm sure you're right.
Please don’t automate the climate controls further. If it’s 20F outside, I’m probably bundled up and happy with 55F cabin temperature. If it’s 85 I’ll be wearing a tshirt and will freeze in 65F.
Then there’s a separate issue of the control system being crappy. Even if it’s 20F and you need to heat the cabin to 55F, I don’t want deafening heat blasting in my face for 2 minutes to get there ASAP. I’d prefer a 10-15 slow ramp.
I realize those are highly personal desires, but I’m way better served by an old school(hot/cold)x(1/2/3/45) control. I’m happy to be the PID controller for the system
Then there’s a separate issue of the control system being crappy. Even if it’s 20F and you need to heat the cabin to 55F, I don’t want deafening heat blasting in my face for 2 minutes to get there ASAP. I’d prefer a 10-15 slow ramp.
I realize those are highly personal desires, but I’m way better served by an old school(hot/cold)x(1/2/3/45) control. I’m happy to be the PID controller for the system
As somebody with allergies and asthma, the "blasting in my face" is always a problem. Blasts of cold air can set off asthma, and there's often dust and pollen accumulated in car intakes.
Spend some money on a good cabine air filter. Especially cheap and midrange cars come with simple ones, that can easily be replaced with activated carbon filters. It may cost 50-100 usd every two years extra, but it’s worth the money if you have allergies. It also reduces bad smells from outside air.
For example mann-filter.com sell also biofunctional filters for many car models. They made a huge difference for me. And worked flawlessly for 2 years.
For example mann-filter.com sell also biofunctional filters for many car models. They made a huge difference for me. And worked flawlessly for 2 years.
As someone who doesn't want to navigate the touchscreens, I love that my 2021 Highlander has physical climate controls.
But I also realized that you no longer need them. My wife set her climate control to 70 degrees and never touched it since. In the winter it warms her up, in the summer it cools her down. Her car is a perfect 70 degrees all year round.
So for her, it doesn't matter how inaccessible the controls are, she never uses them. I suspect at least in part, the less accessible design reflects the lower usage.
But I also realized that you no longer need them. My wife set her climate control to 70 degrees and never touched it since. In the winter it warms her up, in the summer it cools her down. Her car is a perfect 70 degrees all year round.
So for her, it doesn't matter how inaccessible the controls are, she never uses them. I suspect at least in part, the less accessible design reflects the lower usage.
Yeah I think if manufacturers do a good job you don't really have to adjust the temperature often. But also it is also a learning curve for some people. My dad has a brand new F150 that he is always adjusting the temperature up and down and turning off the auto fan. It very much is the setting the thermostat higher in an attempt to heat the house faster.
> It very much is the setting the thermostat higher in an attempt to heat the house faster.
This bugs me :) Having said that, I don't know if some cars apply an s-curve to their heat output that you could hack by doing this, so I keep my opinion to myself when I see people doing it.
This bugs me :) Having said that, I don't know if some cars apply an s-curve to their heat output that you could hack by doing this, so I keep my opinion to myself when I see people doing it.
It is his car so I let him do what he wants. I just make sure my mom sets the temperature and leaves it in her hybrid since setting it to max temperature and such causes it to get significantly worse fuel economy.
When the sun is hitting me, I need it to be about 5 degrees cooler. Does the climate control account for that?
Several cars with automatic climate control I owned have a sensor on the dash that detects sunlight and adjusts the system accordingly.
I dunno. I suppose in that case someone would just turn the one dial down, not fuck around with fan speeds etc.
Then it still matters that the one dial is accessible. And ideally a physical dial...
Sure and I like those. But can we agree it's less relevant than decades ago?
Touchscreens have ruined car UX for a generation.
It's not just cars. Other places I've seen this is large home appliances, with recent examples being inwall ovens and washer/dryer.
On the oven front, the high end GE ones[0] have a display. It looks fine from pictures, but when you're trying to interact with it, it's just slow. It has a design flaw of just an unresponsive touch screen. But buttons you want easy access to aren't always there. (This can maybe get better if they fixed the implementation, but right now it's terrible).
On the washer dryer front, I've been using two recently so I could compare. One is an old Maytag with a physical dial. The other is a semi new Samsung that has buttons but uses a display. With the Samsung, you always have to push and hold the power on off button. The Maytag you can just turn the dial and then hit start. The Maytag is just overall faster to interact with.
I feel like these large appliance makers see displays as a selling point, but then they produce very suboptimal implementations that are terrible and the downgrade from the previous experience. I really wish they would spend more time on UX, rather than style.
[0] https://www.geappliances.com/appliance/GE-Profile-30-Smart-B...
On the oven front, the high end GE ones[0] have a display. It looks fine from pictures, but when you're trying to interact with it, it's just slow. It has a design flaw of just an unresponsive touch screen. But buttons you want easy access to aren't always there. (This can maybe get better if they fixed the implementation, but right now it's terrible).
On the washer dryer front, I've been using two recently so I could compare. One is an old Maytag with a physical dial. The other is a semi new Samsung that has buttons but uses a display. With the Samsung, you always have to push and hold the power on off button. The Maytag you can just turn the dial and then hit start. The Maytag is just overall faster to interact with.
I feel like these large appliance makers see displays as a selling point, but then they produce very suboptimal implementations that are terrible and the downgrade from the previous experience. I really wish they would spend more time on UX, rather than style.
[0] https://www.geappliances.com/appliance/GE-Profile-30-Smart-B...
Making a good touchscreen UI—-from both a hardware responsiveness and UX perspective is very expensive.
I’d rather GE make an oven that reliably holds temp and leave touchscreens to the Apples of the world.
If that horse has left the barn, never to return, then what if they at least build on top of android?
I’d rather GE make an oven that reliably holds temp and leave touchscreens to the Apples of the world.
If that horse has left the barn, never to return, then what if they at least build on top of android?
totally agree. In our previous apartment we had an oven with a touch screen and a stove with touch controls (no screen). They were our least favorite items at home. In a kitchen setting especially, it's very hard to operate touch interfaces.
It is such a bad implementation.
Whenever I am in a car with a touch screen the two things that get me
- The car bounces and I miss the thing on the screen I was aiming for
- I am low vision I have to lean in so close to read those stupid screens with the tiny UI widgets
I hope they figure something better out, I honestly preferred when they were doing the screens with the buttons around the edge.
Whenever I am in a car with a touch screen the two things that get me
- The car bounces and I miss the thing on the screen I was aiming for
- I am low vision I have to lean in so close to read those stupid screens with the tiny UI widgets
I hope they figure something better out, I honestly preferred when they were doing the screens with the buttons around the edge.
First, car companies are generally terrible at making software from the jump. The interfaces are always byzantine, laggy, and poorly laid out. There's the small bandaid of Apple Carplay and Android Auto, but then your vehicle settings are decoupled from the rest of the UI, which is confusing and frustrating. I'm honestly due to get a new car, but I have no idea what to get because virtually every car on the market feels like using a 10 year old Android tablet.
All I want is a small display, doesn't have to be touch, for backup camera and carplay. Please put everything else behind buttons, switches, and LED indicators.
All I want is a small display, doesn't have to be touch, for backup camera and carplay. Please put everything else behind buttons, switches, and LED indicators.
It's not exactly what you're looking for, but maybe test drive a car with Android Automotive (Google's built-in infotainment product). I have it in my Volvo XC40 EV and like it. But at least in my car there are still physical controls for audio playback and a few other things (not climate).
There is a list of cars with Android Automotive at the bottom of its Wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Automotive
There is a list of cars with Android Automotive at the bottom of its Wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Automotive
Unless they have switched recently, the Toyota Camry has a great combination of screen and physical buttons.
https://di-uploads-pod3.dealerinspire.com/toyotaofclermont/u...
https://di-uploads-pod3.dealerinspire.com/toyotaofclermont/u...
My F-150 2013 is exactly that. Anything since 2013 is a touch screen for everything as opposed to a small display screen with physical buttons for everything.
You might just need to find an older used model that is in good condition.
You might just need to find an older used model that is in good condition.
It’s not just cars. I think the touchscreen/iOS control set has some hard to use features.
For example, the slider wheel to specify a date or time is not very easy to use. I use Runkeeper to track exercises. If I have a 45 minute workout, I have to scroll through 0-44 to get to 45. This takes a few swipes and is more effort than tapping “4” and “5.”
I feel like the interface is superficially tested but not for routine functions where someone would like to speed up their interaction.
I think this inherits from the select drop-down html control where on the desktop everything is 1-2 clicks to select the drop down and then the value. But on a touchscreen it’s swiping.
This Carrie’s through to all these vehicle interfaces. I hope they get better. The S class interface in this article looks terrible. And that’s for a very nice car that other manufacturers are emulating.
For example, the slider wheel to specify a date or time is not very easy to use. I use Runkeeper to track exercises. If I have a 45 minute workout, I have to scroll through 0-44 to get to 45. This takes a few swipes and is more effort than tapping “4” and “5.”
I feel like the interface is superficially tested but not for routine functions where someone would like to speed up their interaction.
I think this inherits from the select drop-down html control where on the desktop everything is 1-2 clicks to select the drop down and then the value. But on a touchscreen it’s swiping.
This Carrie’s through to all these vehicle interfaces. I hope they get better. The S class interface in this article looks terrible. And that’s for a very nice car that other manufacturers are emulating.
This stuff started when responsive web design became a thing. The big change from my POV is designers were empowered to implement the “top x” features or user journeys and pretty much ignore the rest.
Ignoring low use functions is bad. There are plenty of buttons in my car that are a waste of money on the bill of materials if you think about frequency. But if I need it in an emergency, it’s essential.
Ignoring low use functions is bad. There are plenty of buttons in my car that are a waste of money on the bill of materials if you think about frequency. But if I need it in an emergency, it’s essential.
Touchscreens should be outlawed. End of story. They are extremely dangerous. I’ve driven a Tesla for 5+ years now and I hate with a passion how the temperature interface is. It’s the single worst thing about it. And tesla loves changing it every few months including location. That should be outlawed as well.
A year ago they changed the air to a sliding bar which was inconceivably stupid. It was straight up dangerous to try to change the air level while driving because not only did you have to look to get your finger on it, it was so sensitive it was hard to get it to the level you wanted.
They should outlaw changing the interface of a car once it had been released. This isn’t a computer it’s a car. Lives are depending on it and the hubris tesla had to change it Willy nilly is infuriating.
A year ago they changed the air to a sliding bar which was inconceivably stupid. It was straight up dangerous to try to change the air level while driving because not only did you have to look to get your finger on it, it was so sensitive it was hard to get it to the level you wanted.
They should outlaw changing the interface of a car once it had been released. This isn’t a computer it’s a car. Lives are depending on it and the hubris tesla had to change it Willy nilly is infuriating.
I feel like I'm the only one that uses the manual controls. It bugs me getting into someone's car where the heat is set to 85 degrees and the HVAC goes full blast once you turn the key, but you know nothing warm is going to come out of the vents for at least ten minutes, when the engine starts to warm up (in the winter)
I know that Mercedes doesn’t do that. The fan speed only increases once the heating is working. But their luxury cars usually have additional electrical heating, that works right from the start, and is powered by the battery and the generator.
And the diesel engines usually have a diesel powered heating element, to warm up the engine quickly, this is needed to reduce the pollution, because the cold engine performs badly.
And the diesel engines usually have a diesel powered heating element, to warm up the engine quickly, this is needed to reduce the pollution, because the cold engine performs badly.
Same with BMW.
I love that little temperature adjustment for the hands on BMWs.
I love that little temperature adjustment for the hands on BMWs.
Around 5 years ago I was buying a car and tried out a whole bunch of them. One thing that stood out at the time was trying a Ford Fusion - not only were all the controls touch screen, the touch screen was painfully slow. You had to navigate pages of settings and page changes weren't instant. Even stopped the experience wasn't satisfactory. I ended up not buying that car 100% because the environmental controls (really all the controls) were so slow and bad.
Hilariously, though, its not just the car companies that are bad. Google used to have an acceptable solution with google maps and voice commands to change songs in google music. It worked without much effort. Today I can't get my pixel to reliably start music or change a song. Android auto, instead of being its own app, seemingly has to detect you're moving a car and then does stuff. It's a disaster - I'm not sure why anyone would have wanted it that way but I hate it, and have been thinking of getting a dedicated GPS unit instead.
Hilariously, though, its not just the car companies that are bad. Google used to have an acceptable solution with google maps and voice commands to change songs in google music. It worked without much effort. Today I can't get my pixel to reliably start music or change a song. Android auto, instead of being its own app, seemingly has to detect you're moving a car and then does stuff. It's a disaster - I'm not sure why anyone would have wanted it that way but I hate it, and have been thinking of getting a dedicated GPS unit instead.
I am surprised so many talented engineers went the touchscreen route. Volkswagen, Mercedes and more recently BMW are going this way. In my experience it is not only annoying, it is a safety hazard. In my old car, I could feel for the button to turn on the defrosting without ever taking my eyes off the road, it was so well designed!
In a way, it feels that the current trend is very much like the Apple laptops at some point, where they god rid of the physical function keys and replaced them with touch sensitive controls. Thankfully, Apple is reverting this change.
I think at some point car manufacturers will realise that it leads to more accidents and they will also reverse course. Perhaps touchscreens will even be forbidden?
Caveat: I was wrong before on touchscreens. I though phones with touchscreens will not work out, but they have. However, it is because we no longer use phones for phoning, but to watch movies, read text, etc.
In a way, it feels that the current trend is very much like the Apple laptops at some point, where they god rid of the physical function keys and replaced them with touch sensitive controls. Thankfully, Apple is reverting this change.
I think at some point car manufacturers will realise that it leads to more accidents and they will also reverse course. Perhaps touchscreens will even be forbidden?
Caveat: I was wrong before on touchscreens. I though phones with touchscreens will not work out, but they have. However, it is because we no longer use phones for phoning, but to watch movies, read text, etc.
I don’t believe for a second that engineers are driving the decisions to use touchscreens. Collectively, engineers have ethics that would prevent dumpster fires like this.
No, I blame the managers and executives, looking to add feature while reducing costs. Moreover, adding this level of software integration permits later adding software locks via an OTA update.
Auto execs wouldn't know ethics if they bit them in the ass. Those individuals should be held responsible for the tragedies that their reckless choices have caused.
No, I blame the managers and executives, looking to add feature while reducing costs. Moreover, adding this level of software integration permits later adding software locks via an OTA update.
Auto execs wouldn't know ethics if they bit them in the ass. Those individuals should be held responsible for the tragedies that their reckless choices have caused.
Are there any reliable modern vehicles with a UI more like a decade or two ago? (eg. physical knobs and a dash that doesn't blind you)
Toyota Tacoma - still has all the knobs and buttons just like God intended. Touch screen is small, works with CarPlay, good for podcasts and maps. Everything else, just reach over and touch it. And a Tacoma is the very definition of reliable.
Console view:
https://toyotaassets.scene7.com/is/image/toyota/TAC_MY21_000...
Console view:
https://toyotaassets.scene7.com/is/image/toyota/TAC_MY21_000...
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think it's interesting that all the examples shared of "physical UI" vehicles, save one, are pickup trucks.
I've got a new Ram 1500 and I haven't had to turn on the infotainment system or use a touch screen one time. I've got the screen completely off except when in reverse (automatically turns on and off as needed).
Most of the inputs are chunky physical things. Drive select is a gigantic clicky knob and there are three dedicated rotary dials just for the climate controls.
Most of the inputs are chunky physical things. Drive select is a gigantic clicky knob and there are three dedicated rotary dials just for the climate controls.
Mazda and Honda both have said they will avoid touch screen for climate.
They both use the three knob system (fan strength, temp, zones) and there is no possible improvement as far as I am concerned.
They both use the three knob system (fan strength, temp, zones) and there is no possible improvement as far as I am concerned.
Didn't mazda eliminate touchscreens entirely? Buttons around a screen instead.
I want a steering wheel with more buttons than an xbox elite controller, with chording, pressure sensitivity, long press double press etc. Why settle for a steering wheel that isn't Turing complete while you are touring? And your eyes never leave the road.
I want a steering wheel with more buttons than an xbox elite controller, with chording, pressure sensitivity, long press double press etc. Why settle for a steering wheel that isn't Turing complete while you are touring? And your eyes never leave the road.
[monkey paw] okay, but they are capacitive buttons that give no feedback at all when you brush against them. Market research suggests that users like this, actually.
Honda did go the touchscreen route - or at least they did - one of my relatives has a 2017-ish civic sedan with climate on the touchscreen. It's an absolute pain, especially in winter where I like to start on high to make sure the windows are clear, then reduce the power as I'm driving.
Kudos to them if they reversed the decision. Touchscreens have no purpose on the dash except for navigation and maybe the rear camera
Kudos to them if they reversed the decision. Touchscreens have no purpose on the dash except for navigation and maybe the rear camera
“We changed it from touchscreen to dial operation, as we received customer feedback that it was difficult to operate intuitively. You had to look at the screen to change the heater seating, therefore, we changed it so one can operate it without looking, giving more confidence while driving.”
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-geneva-motor-...
Can confirm, a friend of mine was looking for a lease car, explicitly with knobs for controls like this. I think he went for a Mazda in the end.
I've never bought a car but if I do, that might be the third most important criteria on my list (1st being security, 2nd being reliability/ease of maintenance).
It seems the Japanese brands (Toyota, Mazda, Honda…) tend to tick most of these boxes. I would have hoped brands like Volvo or Volkswagen would avoid this touchscreen trend but it seems they jumped on the bandwagon.
It seems the Japanese brands (Toyota, Mazda, Honda…) tend to tick most of these boxes. I would have hoped brands like Volvo or Volkswagen would avoid this touchscreen trend but it seems they jumped on the bandwagon.
Porsche of the previous generation. The latest generation has touch panels with feedback, but they're not nearly as good as a button for literally every function. Check out the interior of a 958 Cayenne and youll see what I mean. More buttons than a Cessna.
The Ford Maverick has pretty much all physical controls, but still supports Android Auto and Apple Carplay. They are pretty difficult to get though at the moment.
I have a Kia Rio Hatch 2021, and it has the screen only for the reverse / carplay. Everything else is physical buttons)
I do loathe the screen, however, am I the only person to note this problem with the new car climate controls? I see this on Honda, Nissan, Acura, Toyota (that I know of):
Back to the OP article, wow that Benz control is nutty. I had a (very) old Mercedes that was gifted to me years ago and the controls were a dream. Not one of them had words on it just symbols, and you could muscle memory them in no time. A very well thought out design. A wheel for temps and fan speed, buttons for activation. I think it might have been a total of 6 inputs. I would trade that for my Hondas sucky four touch screen buttons to turn the fan down screen any time, even if I had to pay dearly for it.
- Set the climate control for say 70
- If it is 80 outside, the AC comes on. Great!
- If it is 69 outside, the HEAT comes on. Even if the car HVAC is off. Uh, not so great?
Back to the OP article, wow that Benz control is nutty. I had a (very) old Mercedes that was gifted to me years ago and the controls were a dream. Not one of them had words on it just symbols, and you could muscle memory them in no time. A very well thought out design. A wheel for temps and fan speed, buttons for activation. I think it might have been a total of 6 inputs. I would trade that for my Hondas sucky four touch screen buttons to turn the fan down screen any time, even if I had to pay dearly for it.
Good automatics often use AC and heating in parallel, to dehumidify the air (to prevent foggy windows). It may be a waste of energy though.
And good automatics won’t crank up the heat if there is just one degree difference. Except electric cars heating is usually for free, because you just use the available heat from the engine.
And good automatics won’t crank up the heat if there is just one degree difference. Except electric cars heating is usually for free, because you just use the available heat from the engine.
The switches on the Ineos Grenadier look great - reminiscent of airplane cockpit. There's still a touchscreen but seems to be controllable by a rotary controller.
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/us/the-vehicle/the-grenadier
https://ineosgrenadier.com/en/us/the-vehicle/the-grenadier
I enjoy tactile controls for most functions in a vehicle. I think they seem safer and easier to use.
Although, it seems like a major benefit for touchscreens are the ability to update the interface. I'm fairly sure Tesla does this (don't own one so not 100% sure). It's an interesting idea, also if owners are able to customize to fit their preferences.
Although, it seems like a major benefit for touchscreens are the ability to update the interface. I'm fairly sure Tesla does this (don't own one so not 100% sure). It's an interesting idea, also if owners are able to customize to fit their preferences.
I like my Prius Prime's climate controls. I have a lot of problems with the in-dash system in general, but two big permanent buttons for temperature and a menu screen for everything else seems right. My only complaint is that I'd like a physical button to cycle through blower modes, since I hate having the air blowing in my face.
And for navigating menus, there's a mini-screen just under the windshield that can be controlled by a d-pad on the steering wheel. I can manage the audio in every way without ever taking my hand off the wheel.
And for navigating menus, there's a mini-screen just under the windshield that can be controlled by a d-pad on the steering wheel. I can manage the audio in every way without ever taking my hand off the wheel.
My impression is, that 90% of people don’t understand classic climate controls and always use them wrong. And in the end they are not satisfied with the result.
That’s probably why car manufacturers nudge the user to only chose the temperature, and try to figure out everything else automatically. For the remaining 10% of power users, they hide the settings in some submenus.
This leads probably to better overall customer satisfaction.
And i have to admit that I also mostly use the automatic settings. If the automatics are good (and Mercedes does it well), that’s usually enough.
That’s probably why car manufacturers nudge the user to only chose the temperature, and try to figure out everything else automatically. For the remaining 10% of power users, they hide the settings in some submenus.
This leads probably to better overall customer satisfaction.
And i have to admit that I also mostly use the automatic settings. If the automatics are good (and Mercedes does it well), that’s usually enough.
I'm very happy to see that the author has included more than one factor in their analysis:
> "The main goal of climate controls is to make the passengers comfortable. PO Fanger defines thermal comfort as being influenced by six factors: air temperature, heat radiation, air flow, humidity, activity level, and clothing. The car can control the first four factors."
I would like to point out that direct conduction is also extremely important, and that radiation is generally more important than air temperature in daily life. However, it is difficult to directly control conduction and radiation - those are generally changed by changing air temperature.
In fact, liquid water is a bigger factor than any of the named factors, but we generally do not try to control how wet a person is with our HVAC systems.
Here's one tiny case study: A person is cold, because it is wintertime, and it is cold and overcast outside. Their windows are cold, but do not leak much air. After they pull the curtains closed, they feel warmer because their body is no longer radiating as much heat toward the window (you feel the relative difference in heat radiation).
They turn on their home heating system, which increases the temperature, but does not add total humidity. Thus the relative humidity and vapor pressure of water decrease and they perceive that the air has dried out. The home heater raises the air temperature relatively quickly, but their outside walls are cold-soaked and do not heat up quickly - they still feel a chill.
They turn on an oil-filled electric radiator. The radiator consumes 1400 Watts, much less than the home heating system (over 5,000 Watts), so it does not change air temperature much; but it does give the person some comfort.
They turn on a heating pad on the couch. It only consumes a few hundred Watts, but all of the heat is transmitted directly into the person and they warm up quickly.
The person also consumes a hot drink and dries off from the drizzle they walked through. As they dry off, they feel much warmer as their skin is no longer losing heat to water phase change (evaporation).
----
Now, do I expect a car climate system to handle all of that? Not a bit. But we are always telling ourselves simplified stories. The actual story of comfort is very complicated.
> "The main goal of climate controls is to make the passengers comfortable. PO Fanger defines thermal comfort as being influenced by six factors: air temperature, heat radiation, air flow, humidity, activity level, and clothing. The car can control the first four factors."
I would like to point out that direct conduction is also extremely important, and that radiation is generally more important than air temperature in daily life. However, it is difficult to directly control conduction and radiation - those are generally changed by changing air temperature.
In fact, liquid water is a bigger factor than any of the named factors, but we generally do not try to control how wet a person is with our HVAC systems.
Here's one tiny case study: A person is cold, because it is wintertime, and it is cold and overcast outside. Their windows are cold, but do not leak much air. After they pull the curtains closed, they feel warmer because their body is no longer radiating as much heat toward the window (you feel the relative difference in heat radiation).
They turn on their home heating system, which increases the temperature, but does not add total humidity. Thus the relative humidity and vapor pressure of water decrease and they perceive that the air has dried out. The home heater raises the air temperature relatively quickly, but their outside walls are cold-soaked and do not heat up quickly - they still feel a chill.
They turn on an oil-filled electric radiator. The radiator consumes 1400 Watts, much less than the home heating system (over 5,000 Watts), so it does not change air temperature much; but it does give the person some comfort.
They turn on a heating pad on the couch. It only consumes a few hundred Watts, but all of the heat is transmitted directly into the person and they warm up quickly.
The person also consumes a hot drink and dries off from the drizzle they walked through. As they dry off, they feel much warmer as their skin is no longer losing heat to water phase change (evaporation).
----
Now, do I expect a car climate system to handle all of that? Not a bit. But we are always telling ourselves simplified stories. The actual story of comfort is very complicated.
Here's some good examples of what climate controls looked like before computers took over; automated, yet easily operated without even looking at them, and with actual text labels instead of confusing pictograms:
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cold-comfort/cold-comfo...
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cold-comfort/cold-comfo...
“The reason why humidity isn’t included in cars, or most HVAC systems, is that it is not possible for most of us to attach a specific value to the humidity level.”
I would argue that humidity control is included in cars by the air-recirculation button. It’s certainly not exact control, but if you recirculate the air in winter everything will quickly get fogged up (and often vice versa in summer).
I would argue that humidity control is included in cars by the air-recirculation button. It’s certainly not exact control, but if you recirculate the air in winter everything will quickly get fogged up (and often vice versa in summer).
I think a lot of cars do consider the humidity in their calculations. Also because they have a way to regulate it: with the AC. So even in the winter they use the AC to reduce humidity, and then immediately heat up the air again.
Mazda had it just right in 2016 with mostly tactile climate controls, paired with the center console dial interface (also tactile). I think their latest models have regressed just a bit with the button climate controls instead of the dials, but that's still far better than touch screen.
That new central console still looks designed with driving in mind: https://www.mazdausa.com/siteassets/vehicles/2023/cx-5/vlp/g...
Yeah, it's still best in class I think; I just bought a new Mazda and did some comparison test driving, and although I'm not as happy with it as the 2016 offering, the 2021 design is still great.
This is the 2016 climate control cluster I preferred: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1225/1056/products/317144_...
What was nice about it was the three dials for all controls.
This is what they have now:
https://cars.usnews.com/pics/size/776x517/images/Auto/izmo/i...
I think this is aesthetically better, but they turned the fan speed and vent settings into push buttons instead of dials. Whereas before I could set this without looking, now I often have to look to verify my settings. So in that sense, I wasn't happy about that change.
This is the 2016 climate control cluster I preferred: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1225/1056/products/317144_...
What was nice about it was the three dials for all controls.
This is what they have now:
https://cars.usnews.com/pics/size/776x517/images/Auto/izmo/i...
I think this is aesthetically better, but they turned the fan speed and vent settings into push buttons instead of dials. Whereas before I could set this without looking, now I often have to look to verify my settings. So in that sense, I wasn't happy about that change.
Your preferred model is the one in my CX5, I selected a lower trim level especially for those knobs! It also gave me a good reason to spend a weekend with my dad to sound proof the car and upgrade the audio.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm going to repeat a comment I made a few times before, as I think it's relevant:
In one of the talks at Google I/O a few years ago a VP from Audi (or Volvo?) spoke in a thick and lofty German accent about how "ve haf completely oferhauled ze driver exzperienze". He played a sexy video clip showcasing their new Android infotainment system (something like https://youtu.be/h_7_fKJ0PNs), and the first thing I noticed is how they'd taken away my traditional temperature knobs and replaced them with digital touchscreen ones. They looked just like physical ones, and were in the exact same place you would expect (https://9to5google.com/2017/05/15/android-cars-audi/). So, I've gained absolutely nothing, and now I have to take my eyes off the road and look down at the stupid console just to change the temperature.
TLDR: Tacticle feedback is a Good Thing(tm) and designers should cultivate - not fight - muscle memory.
In one of the talks at Google I/O a few years ago a VP from Audi (or Volvo?) spoke in a thick and lofty German accent about how "ve haf completely oferhauled ze driver exzperienze". He played a sexy video clip showcasing their new Android infotainment system (something like https://youtu.be/h_7_fKJ0PNs), and the first thing I noticed is how they'd taken away my traditional temperature knobs and replaced them with digital touchscreen ones. They looked just like physical ones, and were in the exact same place you would expect (https://9to5google.com/2017/05/15/android-cars-audi/). So, I've gained absolutely nothing, and now I have to take my eyes off the road and look down at the stupid console just to change the temperature.
TLDR: Tacticle feedback is a Good Thing(tm) and designers should cultivate - not fight - muscle memory.
Audi has always been funny to me as they’ve been a copycat brand for the 30 years I’ve been aware of them.
So it makes since that their “innovation” is a skeuomorphic digital version of a physical dial that costs more and is shittier.
There’s a gnostic origin story of the demiurge who is like a retarded brother of God that sees heaven and wants to make their own version. But they mess up and make a crappy version that is our world. I think that analogy fits when I see groups try to copy another group and fail, especially when they have high resources. The demiurge was near omniscient in power so it wasn’t lack of resources that made our world suck.
I also think it funny that the gnostic origin story was so pessimistic.
I love learning about different cultures and their origin stories.
So it makes since that their “innovation” is a skeuomorphic digital version of a physical dial that costs more and is shittier.
There’s a gnostic origin story of the demiurge who is like a retarded brother of God that sees heaven and wants to make their own version. But they mess up and make a crappy version that is our world. I think that analogy fits when I see groups try to copy another group and fail, especially when they have high resources. The demiurge was near omniscient in power so it wasn’t lack of resources that made our world suck.
I also think it funny that the gnostic origin story was so pessimistic.
I love learning about different cultures and their origin stories.
The Audi Q4 and the VW id.4 are basically identical cars. The Q4 has a lot more buttons than the id.4, but the reviews I've seen say it makes it worse, not better.
Everything in a car that's gone from physical input to a touch screen, other than intricate and advanced media controls, is a step backward. The single biggest reason is that you need to be looking at the screen to operate the inputs.
The third-last image shows on interface which is still excellent in many cars: the seat adjustment switches that maps to the physical layout of the seat. Perfectly intuitive to use by feel only.
I like old style physical control as well, but I typically use a combination of steering wheel knobs and voice control to adjust climate control on my Model S, not the touch screen. That means I don’t have to take my eyes off the road, or even my hands off the wheel. Voice control is really the most hands-off way to adjust climate.
(Voice control could be more polished than it is, but it works great for climate control IMO. I really like it for enabling or disabling the defrost, which can take fiddling with if you use touch screen or old style controls… especially in a rainy/cloudy situation where you want both hands on the wheel and both eyes on the road..)
(Voice control could be more polished than it is, but it works great for climate control IMO. I really like it for enabling or disabling the defrost, which can take fiddling with if you use touch screen or old style controls… especially in a rainy/cloudy situation where you want both hands on the wheel and both eyes on the road..)
I think Volvo promised to get rid of touchscreens in their cars
The design/usability of everything has gone backwards.
When the iPhone launched (all display), journalist said it’d fail due to lack of tactile buttons (Blackberry).
There was a preference for some people to type without looking at the keyboard. That preference was all but eliminated over time due to the advantages of larger smartphone screens.
While driving a car, it's no longer about preference - it's about attention and safety.
While driving a car, it's no longer about preference - it's about attention and safety.
1) the notion of design has been subtly replaced with style;
Sleek wins over functional. For instance, scroll bars on desktop UIs were thrown away, because they were too fat for phones, and phone UI now sets the trend. So nobody among designers cared that the scrollbar you see with peripheral vision does help you orient in apps.
2) styles are in perpetual rat race, you must be trendy and throw away anything that's drawn to 5-year-old fashion;
3) constant feature creep; Social network VK offered music playing, but over the last 5-6 years the number of taps it takes to start playing grew from 3 to 6 or 8 if you need a particular playlist. It's just awful and irritating.
Consider public transit apps. In my city, you must do 15-20 taps to see the routes you need. I struggle to do this while walking. And I have a good vision -- imagine how tough it is for an old man. But a public sector manager, who drives a new sleek Mercedes and never took a bus/trolleybus last 20 years, tells you this is the future.
4) imprecision of touchscreens and curvature of a thumb. Feature creep requires to stick more and more items in the screen, and on a phone, you must be able to hit 1*1 mm area with a rather flat surface of your thumb.
I've only driven Renault Logan derivatives that have no touchscreen, and kinda scared of the perspective to have to deal with touchscreen while driving.