Apple introduces Apple Pay Later(apple.com)
apple.com
Apple introduces Apple Pay Later
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/03/apple-introduces-apple-pay-later/
351 comments
From the linked article [1]:
"...my bank account number changed in January, causing Apple Card autopay to fail. Then the Apple Store made a charge on the card. Less than fifteen days after that, my App Store, iCloud, Apple Music, and Apple ID accounts had all been disabled by Apple Card."
Wouldn't the same thing have happened if he didn't have an Apple Card, but instead had his credit card decline not only on their Apple subscriptions, but also the MacBook they traded in?
[1] https://dcurt.is/apple-card-can-disable-your-icloud-account
"...my bank account number changed in January, causing Apple Card autopay to fail. Then the Apple Store made a charge on the card. Less than fifteen days after that, my App Store, iCloud, Apple Music, and Apple ID accounts had all been disabled by Apple Card."
Wouldn't the same thing have happened if he didn't have an Apple Card, but instead had his credit card decline not only on their Apple subscriptions, but also the MacBook they traded in?
[1] https://dcurt.is/apple-card-can-disable-your-icloud-account
He paid his iCloud with his Apple Card, but didn't pay the credit card bill properly, so they basically clawed back the purchase.
The analogy is that if I pay for Netflix with Amex and miss an Amex payment, they can't directly cancel Netflix. Eventually if I continute to not pay, they'll shut down the card and Netflix won't be able to charge and will then cancel themselves, but that's a much more flexible process.
It's always good to have a few "fire breaks" between your most important accounts (email, payments, domains, etc.).
The analogy is that if I pay for Netflix with Amex and miss an Amex payment, they can't directly cancel Netflix. Eventually if I continute to not pay, they'll shut down the card and Netflix won't be able to charge and will then cancel themselves, but that's a much more flexible process.
It's always good to have a few "fire breaks" between your most important accounts (email, payments, domains, etc.).
Well, no, if the credit card charge is declined they don't offer the service.
They don't owe you anything if the charge fails. So no-one loses.
If they charge your bank account for a credit card bill that you owe, and it fails, they lose.
They don't owe you anything if the charge fails. So no-one loses.
If they charge your bank account for a credit card bill that you owe, and it fails, they lose.
Not sure, but that’s a good point.
At what point is a situation so convoluted that it can be considered an edge case? Because this story seems like it would qualify! Not only did someone's bank account number change without intervention but it seems Apple also got something wrong about the purchase on two different occasions (saying OP bought an iphone, not a macbook and applying the trade-in to their card without confirmation)...I take your point. But, wow.
Im frankly surprised AC works this way, all of my interactions with AC support and Apple makesit seem like one wants nothing to do with the other.
Im frankly surprised AC works this way, all of my interactions with AC support and Apple makesit seem like one wants nothing to do with the other.
> did someone's bank account number change without intervention
Their bank account number changed for reasons unrelated to Apple. That caused their Apple Card monthly payment to fail. Which caused their payments to Apple, for subscriptions and a trade-in, to fail. So Apple cancelled their subscriptions.
Agree the support communication on iPhone versus MacBook is imprecise. But nothing indicates Apple acted improperly or in a manner they wouldn't with anyone else failing to pay for their services.
Their bank account number changed for reasons unrelated to Apple. That caused their Apple Card monthly payment to fail. Which caused their payments to Apple, for subscriptions and a trade-in, to fail. So Apple cancelled their subscriptions.
Agree the support communication on iPhone versus MacBook is imprecise. But nothing indicates Apple acted improperly or in a manner they wouldn't with anyone else failing to pay for their services.
> At what point is a situation so convoluted that it can be considered an edge case?
People have edge cases all the time! Failing gracefully in edge cases is a critical feature for anything that's so deeply wired into your life like a payment processor or a cloud account!
People have edge cases all the time! Failing gracefully in edge cases is a critical feature for anything that's so deeply wired into your life like a payment processor or a cloud account!
At Apple's scale, an edge case is a question of when (and how often) not if.
For US residents, the Apple Card is not a competitive credit card. There are enough credit cards with no annual fees offering at least 2% cash back on all purchases that the Apple Card's 1% back on general purchases is not a good value. Just about every credit card issuer in the US supports Apple Pay as well, allowing these 2% cash back cards to match the Apple Card's 2% on Apple Pay purchases.
People keep saying things like this, and rarely offer up the name of any better card when asked.
Apple Card offers 2% cash back on all Apple Pay purchases, which... exactly matches my no-fee card from Chase. Except I have to choose how to use the 2% from Chase when it eventually is available, while I can spend Apple's 2% the next day via Apple pay. I threw the metal card in a drawer when it arrived, so if your goal is tell people not to use the physical card, then sure, I'm with you. But I don't think that's the primary use of the card.
Apple Card offers 2% cash back on all Apple Pay purchases, which... exactly matches my no-fee card from Chase. Except I have to choose how to use the 2% from Chase when it eventually is available, while I can spend Apple's 2% the next day via Apple pay. I threw the metal card in a drawer when it arrived, so if your goal is tell people not to use the physical card, then sure, I'm with you. But I don't think that's the primary use of the card.
Fidelity has a flat 2% card which has no annual fee. The cash back then automatically transfers to my brokerage account where it immediately loses money in the stock market, so maybe it works out to less than 2% :)
Citi also has a widely used cash back card for ~2%
Citi also has a widely used cash back card for ~2%
The Fidelity card really is a great general purpose low maintenance card. Plus, if your default cash position is SPAXX, it's currently earning 4.4% interest which isn't too shabby.
Citi’s card has a 3% foreign transaction fee though, making it completely unusable abroad. Fidelity also charges 1%.
I’m actually not aware of any 2% card without any catches (Apple’s being that 2% is only for Apple Pay transactions, which is anything but ubiquitous when shopping online.)
I’m actually not aware of any 2% card without any catches (Apple’s being that 2% is only for Apple Pay transactions, which is anything but ubiquitous when shopping online.)
> I’m actually not aware of any 2% card without any catches
The Bread Cashback Card (American Express)[1] and SoFi Credit Card (MasterCard)[2] give 2% cash back on all purchases with no foreign transaction fees, no annual fees, and no other "catches".
[1] https://www.breadfinancial.com/en/bread-financial-cashback-c...
[2] https://www.sofi.com/credit-card/
The Bread Cashback Card (American Express)[1] and SoFi Credit Card (MasterCard)[2] give 2% cash back on all purchases with no foreign transaction fees, no annual fees, and no other "catches".
[1] https://www.breadfinancial.com/en/bread-financial-cashback-c...
[2] https://www.sofi.com/credit-card/
Yeah the foreign transaction fee is annoying on many cards - I don't have too many cards but I keep a travel focused card (capital one venture) for international travel.
it looks like the fidelity card cashback even exceeds 2% if you have a large brokerage account with them, which is cool. but it looks like you do need an active brokerage account with them to use the card at all. a good deal if you'd like to have a fidelity brokerage account anyway, but imo citi doublecash is the better general recommendation since it doesn't have the same cross-product dependency.
Fidelity and Citi match Apple's 2%, okay.
Wells Fargo, too.
I never redeem points for purchases. I always apply them to a billing credit. If you redeem points for a purchase you don't accrue points on that purchase.
Chase of course goes out of their way to make this as painful as possible. Currently their app is broken and points can't be redeemed for cash. There is also no way to automatically apply all points to a statement credit. My perception that this is the best use of points is reinforced by how much effort they put into trying to convince me to do something else.
Chase of course goes out of their way to make this as painful as possible. Currently their app is broken and points can't be redeemed for cash. There is also no way to automatically apply all points to a statement credit. My perception that this is the best use of points is reinforced by how much effort they put into trying to convince me to do something else.
> I never redeem points for purchases. I always apply them to a billing credit.
This may not be a good redemption. For Chase UR points specifically, you really ought to transfer them to Chase Sapphire Reward card and redeem them for travel ($100 in points becomes $150 in travel) or transfer them to airline/hotel partners for redemptions. For example, you can often find Marriott, Hilton, and Hyatt points redemptions that are substantially better (sometimes more than 50% off) than the cash value of the points.
My last Hyatt hotel stay, I redeemed 8,000 points per night for a hotel room that was listed at $267/night. In cases like this, you can more than triple the value of your points.
This may not be a good redemption. For Chase UR points specifically, you really ought to transfer them to Chase Sapphire Reward card and redeem them for travel ($100 in points becomes $150 in travel) or transfer them to airline/hotel partners for redemptions. For example, you can often find Marriott, Hilton, and Hyatt points redemptions that are substantially better (sometimes more than 50% off) than the cash value of the points.
My last Hyatt hotel stay, I redeemed 8,000 points per night for a hotel room that was listed at $267/night. In cases like this, you can more than triple the value of your points.
Hmm, thanks for the suggestion. I’ll take a look at those benefits. Typically I skip over those kinds of offers because they seem too good to be true.
It's definitely more effort to manage and there is a point of diminishing returns. But even if you just transfer to Chase Sapphire Reserve and redeem for travel (ignoring individual airline/hotel rewards programs), you should get a 50% bonus vs redeeming the points for cash.
"and rarely offer up the name of any better card when asked."
Huh? This is public and searchable information. Even ChatGPT 3.5 can give you a comprehensive answer to "what are the best cash back credit cards?"
It seems like your complaint is that people aren't answering a trivial question. This isn't a valid argumentative position.
The apple card's terms are definitely sub-par. Double the cash back would be competitive with say: https://www.fidelity.com/cash-management/visa-signature-card
Cards that do 5% in special categories are also common.
Huh? This is public and searchable information. Even ChatGPT 3.5 can give you a comprehensive answer to "what are the best cash back credit cards?"
It seems like your complaint is that people aren't answering a trivial question. This isn't a valid argumentative position.
The apple card's terms are definitely sub-par. Double the cash back would be competitive with say: https://www.fidelity.com/cash-management/visa-signature-card
Cards that do 5% in special categories are also common.
To be fair, I've searched for this kind of thing before, and the results are usually plagued with so much sponsored content that it's hard to tell what's really a good deal and what's something someone's being paid to tell me is a good deal. (I feel this way about pretty much all financial advice online, for better or worse.)
Brave throwaway, you underestimate the knowledge you possess! You should be proud of your knowledge and gladly share it, rather than mock those unwilling to expend the effort you've expended to earn such knowledge.
Search results are plagued with spam to the point of uselessness, and this is precisely the sort of information I would not trust from an LLM because their sources are, as I said, plagued with spam and I don't want to chase hallucinated results.
In fact, for all that it's a trivial question, this is at least the fourth time I've asked it, and the first time I've gotten real answers--although not from you.
Perhaps the issue is that you don't seen to realize I've never gotten less than 2% from my Apple Card, and I get 3% back from Apple purchases? (Since I just bought an iPad Air + accessories for my daughter's birthday, that alone saved me more than $50!)
The Fidelity card you mention seems to require a Fidelity account, but that's okay, since I have one. However, the terms then seem identical to my experience with the Apple card.
I got my Apple card before Chase updated my cards from them to be tappable, and basically I use the Apple card for Apple Pay (2%) and purchases/subscriptions from Apple (3%), a Chase Amazon card for purchases from Amazon (5%), and a Chase Sapphire physical card (2% or 5%, depending on category) when a physical card is required (rarely these days, but at Walmart for one). It's not clear to me how Fidelity is any better than Apple card in this scenario.
Search results are plagued with spam to the point of uselessness, and this is precisely the sort of information I would not trust from an LLM because their sources are, as I said, plagued with spam and I don't want to chase hallucinated results.
In fact, for all that it's a trivial question, this is at least the fourth time I've asked it, and the first time I've gotten real answers--although not from you.
Perhaps the issue is that you don't seen to realize I've never gotten less than 2% from my Apple Card, and I get 3% back from Apple purchases? (Since I just bought an iPad Air + accessories for my daughter's birthday, that alone saved me more than $50!)
The Fidelity card you mention seems to require a Fidelity account, but that's okay, since I have one. However, the terms then seem identical to my experience with the Apple card.
I got my Apple card before Chase updated my cards from them to be tappable, and basically I use the Apple card for Apple Pay (2%) and purchases/subscriptions from Apple (3%), a Chase Amazon card for purchases from Amazon (5%), and a Chase Sapphire physical card (2% or 5%, depending on category) when a physical card is required (rarely these days, but at Walmart for one). It's not clear to me how Fidelity is any better than Apple card in this scenario.
Again, none of what you're saying makes sense. Spam doesn't prevent you from looking into the details of an offer. Hallucinated results don't stop you from looking up the details of a card offer.
It also seems like you've now changed your story and are explaining all the cards you have which outperform apple's.
You seem really defensive and agitated over this triviality. No one is mocking you for your mistakes. It's just that what you've said doesn't make sense, and is inconsistent. Please, just take it as honest feedback.
It also seems like you've now changed your story and are explaining all the cards you have which outperform apple's.
You seem really defensive and agitated over this triviality. No one is mocking you for your mistakes. It's just that what you've said doesn't make sense, and is inconsistent. Please, just take it as honest feedback.
Hahaha, what an odd response! I mean, explaining how your tone was condescending while mine clearly expressed wry amusement would just be me being defensive now, right? So I won't.
My point stands: From the time this card was first announced, people online, especially on this very site, have been dismissing it as having "sub-par" terms, and yet when pushed, all of the alternatives offered up seem to be similar, or even worse.
Of the three credit card bills I (auto-)pay off every month, Apple card has by far the biggest bill, because I use Apple Pay a lot. When I travel to Hong Kong, I love the lack of foreign transaction fees, and still the easy convenience of tap-to-pay with my wristwatch everywhere.
I do have a Chase Sapphire Preferred card that also has no transaction fees--but it costs me $95/year, so I'd judge that to be sup-par compared to Apple's free card, except that I use it to book travel, so the cash back goes farther.
I'll look into the CapitalOne SavorOne that somebody else mentioned, but generally I don't look forward to spending hours of my life comparing nearly-identical credit cards, so I was glad to get some real answers this time!
My point stands: From the time this card was first announced, people online, especially on this very site, have been dismissing it as having "sub-par" terms, and yet when pushed, all of the alternatives offered up seem to be similar, or even worse.
Of the three credit card bills I (auto-)pay off every month, Apple card has by far the biggest bill, because I use Apple Pay a lot. When I travel to Hong Kong, I love the lack of foreign transaction fees, and still the easy convenience of tap-to-pay with my wristwatch everywhere.
I do have a Chase Sapphire Preferred card that also has no transaction fees--but it costs me $95/year, so I'd judge that to be sup-par compared to Apple's free card, except that I use it to book travel, so the cash back goes farther.
I'll look into the CapitalOne SavorOne that somebody else mentioned, but generally I don't look forward to spending hours of my life comparing nearly-identical credit cards, so I was glad to get some real answers this time!
> Even ChatGPT 3.5 can give you a comprehensive answer to "what are the best cash back credit cards?"
Is this a new version of "google it"?
Is this a new version of "google it"?
Yes, with Bing
So what is the best general-purpose cashback card according to ChatGPT?
Q. what is the best general-purpose cashback credit card?
A. As an AI language model, I cannot recommend a specific financial product, but I can provide some information on what to look for when choosing a cashback credit card.
[Information on what to look for: Cashback, signup bonuses, annual fees, redemption options, and credit score requirements.]
It's possible Bing's AI does better, but I don't use the Edge browser, so I don't know.
A. As an AI language model, I cannot recommend a specific financial product, but I can provide some information on what to look for when choosing a cashback credit card.
[Information on what to look for: Cashback, signup bonuses, annual fees, redemption options, and credit score requirements.]
It's possible Bing's AI does better, but I don't use the Edge browser, so I don't know.
Citibank double cash https://citicards.citi.com/usc/LPACA/Citi/Cards/DoubleCash/p...
That seems to give the same 2% I already get with my Apple card, but only 1% immediately, and the other 1% when it's paid, making it not as good as my Apple card's 2% immediately.
I have a Chase Amazon Visa card that gives 5% back on Amazon purchases and some % on the rest. I happen to buy a lot from them (although less and less as I see more counterfeit-looking brands).
It also covers Whole Foods which is nice if you shop there.
I have the same one! I use it for Amazon only.
This card also has no foreign transaction fees.
My Goto card is Paypal 2% for everything, and 3% for PayPal (so online Walmart, ebay, anything which offers PayPal), as soon as txn goes through. Synchrony Bank's own mastercard also offers 2% on everything, at every statement end. Wells Fargo Active Cash also offera 2% everywhere. I use Wells Fargo Autograph for 3% stuff like Travel, Food. Discover & Chase come out only if there are 5% offers or categories. Capital Ones get only 99 cent charge a month to get it forgiven.
Apple card only for apple purchases, 0% apr && 3% cashback. I use android phone, so no apple pay possible. I wish it allows to be added to google pay with nfc.
Apple card only for apple purchases, 0% apr && 3% cashback. I use android phone, so no apple pay possible. I wish it allows to be added to google pay with nfc.
Apple Card is very convenient, but it's not the best in the rewards arena.
For example, CapitalOne SavorOne (3% for many categories) and Wells Fargo Active Cash (2% on all purchases). There are many others that are competitive for specific situations though, including Citi Custom Cash (5% in a single category). Most of these cards also offer an intro APR and/or bonus after $X has been spent.
For example, CapitalOne SavorOne (3% for many categories) and Wells Fargo Active Cash (2% on all purchases). There are many others that are competitive for specific situations though, including Citi Custom Cash (5% in a single category). Most of these cards also offer an intro APR and/or bonus after $X has been spent.
Definitely true, but this means that you have to spend some time and effort on using the "right" card for any given type of purchase, and staying on top of any changes to your rewards as well, to say nothing of having to juggle multiple due dates and automatic or manual payments.
A flat reward on everything definitely has its appeals. (The Apple Card isn't quite that, though – paying online without Apple Pay only gives you 1% rewards.)
A flat reward on everything definitely has its appeals. (The Apple Card isn't quite that, though – paying online without Apple Pay only gives you 1% rewards.)
As I mentioned in the comment to which you're responding, I never get less than 2% from my Apple card, so the Wells Fargo doesn't seem better to me.
I'll look into the Capital One option, thank you!
I'll look into the Capital One option, thank you!
Fidelity Investments credit card has blanket 2% cash back on everything and supports Apple Pay, to name one.
Which matches the 2% my comment already said I get with Apple card. And requires a Fidelity account. So I'm not sure it's "better," but thank you.
Its better in that it gives 2% on all purchases and can be (but does not need to be) used with Apple Pay, while Apple Card must be used with Apple Pay to receive the 2% cash back.
[deleted]
It's 2% back anytime you use Apple Pay, though. Which I use, a lot, and it's nice not to think about which card to use in that scenario, which I imagine was their point. I know there are plenty of cards that will give 2% cash back on any transaction, too.
None have privacy guarantees, and usually those rates are extremely subject to change, require quarterly activation, variable APR, high foreign transaction fees, or many other annoyances.
> None have privacy guarantees
The Apple Card's issuer (Goldman Sachs) and payment network (MasterCard) retain just as much transaction information for the Apple Card as they do for any other credit card.[1]
[1] https://www.engadget.com/2019-08-30-apple-card-privacy-adult...
> usually those rates are extremely subject to change, require quarterly activation
That's not true. I'm not aware of any US credit card offering 2% cash back on all purchases that regularly changes this 2% rate or requires quarterly activation for the 2% rate. If you can name even one 2% cash back card that does this, please do.
> variable APR
The Apple Card also has a variable APR. The Apple Card Customer Agreement says that the APR is "15.49% to 26.49% when you open your account" and "After that, this APR will vary with the market based on the Prime Rate."[2]
[2] https://www.goldmansachs.com/terms-and-conditions/Apple-Card...
> high foreign transaction fees
The Bread Cashback Card (American Express) and SoFi Credit Card (MasterCard) manage to offer 2% cash back on all purchases with no foreign transaction fee or annual fee.
The Apple Card's issuer (Goldman Sachs) and payment network (MasterCard) retain just as much transaction information for the Apple Card as they do for any other credit card.[1]
[1] https://www.engadget.com/2019-08-30-apple-card-privacy-adult...
> usually those rates are extremely subject to change, require quarterly activation
That's not true. I'm not aware of any US credit card offering 2% cash back on all purchases that regularly changes this 2% rate or requires quarterly activation for the 2% rate. If you can name even one 2% cash back card that does this, please do.
> variable APR
The Apple Card also has a variable APR. The Apple Card Customer Agreement says that the APR is "15.49% to 26.49% when you open your account" and "After that, this APR will vary with the market based on the Prime Rate."[2]
[2] https://www.goldmansachs.com/terms-and-conditions/Apple-Card...
> high foreign transaction fees
The Bread Cashback Card (American Express) and SoFi Credit Card (MasterCard) manage to offer 2% cash back on all purchases with no foreign transaction fee or annual fee.
getting 3% back on apple purchases plus 0% interest for 12-24 months is pretty nice.
given theres no annual fee i don't really see the downside if you buy apple products.
given theres no annual fee i don't really see the downside if you buy apple products.
It's not bad for using to buy Apple Products, but if you're only using one credit card, might as well get something that gives 2% on all purchases unless you reallllly buy a lot of Apple products.
at this point getting a 0% loan for 2 years is more interesting than the difference between 1-2% cash back.
i used to be really into optimizing cash back but it just ends up costing more mindshare than it is really worth.
i used to be really into optimizing cash back but it just ends up costing more mindshare than it is really worth.
That’s exactly the goal of the companies, and Apple’s offering is “good enough” there.
not sure what your point is. cash back cards aren't really interesting to me. you're better off not overspending on things that don't add to your quality of life than worrying about whether you're getting 1-3% cash back.
i do have a premium travel card that gives me points for dining and travel but these come with high annual fees so you're paying for it in a different way.
i do have a premium travel card that gives me points for dining and travel but these come with high annual fees so you're paying for it in a different way.
The point is that most people don't bother to juggle cards to get the best cash back each time; they just pick one and stick with it (which is why companies PAY Costco big bucks to be their card provider).
"getting a 0% loan"
Smart people don't do loans for a $300 purchase in the first place.
Smart people don't do loans for a $300 purchase in the first place.
If it’s at 0% why not (genuine question). That’s just free money, right? Obviously the interest on $300 isn’t much but if you take 0% loans on everything where it’s available it will add up eventually.
Why wouldn’t I take free money? Heck even if it were 1% I’d still do it because I can earn more than 1% with a CD right now.
That didn't seem to have anything do with it being an Apple card, though?
Inise it because it was really easy to add my college age child’s account - and flows directly into the iOS payment system
Not sure other cards offer the same simple process
Not sure other cards offer the same simple process
On the flip side since most people like to share scary stuff because when things are going right, nothing is worth sharing...
I put 75k or more worth of transactions through my Apple Card in 2022 and I've had nothing but wonderful experiences with the whole thing, including with Apple and Goldman Sachs.
I put 75k or more worth of transactions through my Apple Card in 2022 and I've had nothing but wonderful experiences with the whole thing, including with Apple and Goldman Sachs.
Same. I use my Apple Card instead of cash or my debit card in almost all cases (except Costco where I have to use Visa and I have their card for that). I've averaged a little over $27K/year since 2019 and have had zero issues. GS has been great when I've had to dispute charges and they took care of everything. I love how seamless it is and it just works. Also, I am a self-admitted Apple-whore and am totally invested in their ecosystem FWIW.
> except Costco where I have to use Visa and I have their card for that
I imagine this is due to some dispute with Mastercard on their fees for credit cards (you can use MC debit at Costco); Visa probably gives Costco a steep discount on fees.
I imagine this is due to some dispute with Mastercard on their fees for credit cards (you can use MC debit at Costco); Visa probably gives Costco a steep discount on fees.
> I imagine this is due to some dispute with Mastercard on their fees for credit cards
Costco has long had an official credit card and only allowed cards of that brand (whether theirs or not), for a long time it was Amex not Visa.
> Visa probably gives Costco a steep discount on fees.
Right; their single-card-brand partnership agreement is a tool for getting lower credit card processing fees.
Costco has long had an official credit card and only allowed cards of that brand (whether theirs or not), for a long time it was Amex not Visa.
> Visa probably gives Costco a steep discount on fees.
Right; their single-card-brand partnership agreement is a tool for getting lower credit card processing fees.
> Right; their single-card-brand partnership agreement is a tool for getting lower credit card processing fees.
Volume rates in general are extremely common.
Volume rates in general are extremely common.
> Volume rates in general are extremely common.
This combines “volume” with “exclude our competitors”.
This combines “volume” with “exclude our competitors”.
My point (theory) is that Mastercard isn't offering them a big enough volume discount. If they could pay 0.1% I doubt they would exclude MC even if it meant losing out on some Costco credit card accounts.
I'm saying excluding other card brands gets them a bigger discount from their exclusive card network than volume alone would, not that it pushes people to the Costco-branded card from that network (though it probably does that, too.)
In Canada, I believe you can only use Mastercard at Costco, interestingly.
"wonderful experiences"?
It's a credit card. You tap it and pay for stuff...
It's a credit card. You tap it and pay for stuff...
Well, Apple’s metal card doesn’t have NFC capabilities for security and to incentivize pulling out the phone for purchases. The metal card only gives 1% back while using the phone gives 2%.
The Apple Card is great because Goldman decided to get in the business of selling two dollar bills for a dollar as a growth hack. That's not something that will last forever.
What do you mean? In the US where Apple Card is offered, the 2% back for Apple Pay transactions seems sustainable. The only thing that has put GS into question is [0], but that's just overlending likely at the request of Apple to get Apple Card in more hands.
0: https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/16/apple-card-future-goldmans-sa...
0: https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/16/apple-card-future-goldmans-sa...
They're alluding to the cost of acquiring a customer for GS through Apple Card.
https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/18/apple-card-is-a-d...
> Goldman Sachs spent a lot of money to help launch Apple Card and its other consumer services. A report from January 13 revealed the bank's consumer credit division lost $1.2 billion in nine months last year, and the losses were primarily related to the Apple Card.
> "In the consumer platforms, we did some things right. We didn't execute on some others," Solomon told CNBC on Wednesday. "We probably took on more than we should have, you know, too much, too quickly."
> Goldman helped launch the Apple Card in 2019 and reportedly spent roughly $350 to acquire every new Apple Card customer. And in 2022, it scaled back its efforts to turn its consumer savings business, Marcus, into a fully-fledged digital bank.
> Executives of Goldman's collection of businesses known as Platform Solutions believe its consumer division may break even in 2025, although that target was initially by the end of 2022. However, the bank isn't giving up on the Apple Card.
> "I think we now have a very good deposits business," Solomon said. "We're working on our cards platform, and I think the partnership with Apple is going to pay meaningful dividends for the firm."
https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/01/18/apple-card-is-a-d...
> Goldman Sachs spent a lot of money to help launch Apple Card and its other consumer services. A report from January 13 revealed the bank's consumer credit division lost $1.2 billion in nine months last year, and the losses were primarily related to the Apple Card.
> "In the consumer platforms, we did some things right. We didn't execute on some others," Solomon told CNBC on Wednesday. "We probably took on more than we should have, you know, too much, too quickly."
> Goldman helped launch the Apple Card in 2019 and reportedly spent roughly $350 to acquire every new Apple Card customer. And in 2022, it scaled back its efforts to turn its consumer savings business, Marcus, into a fully-fledged digital bank.
> Executives of Goldman's collection of businesses known as Platform Solutions believe its consumer division may break even in 2025, although that target was initially by the end of 2022. However, the bank isn't giving up on the Apple Card.
> "I think we now have a very good deposits business," Solomon said. "We're working on our cards platform, and I think the partnership with Apple is going to pay meaningful dividends for the firm."
You must not need to download those transactions as a CSV file. You can only pull it down one statement at a time!
Thanks Apple for making tax time just a bit more painful...
Thanks Apple for making tax time just a bit more painful...
this horror alone is enough to make me avoid it. Reconciling transactions with my budget software is hard enough
Apple Card has Mint integration now as a way to get bulk CSV. Mint being an Intuit product in 2023 is problematic in its own ways, but the Mint <=> Apple Card OAuth flow suggests it may be an API others can (eventually, with effort) request access to.
I closed my Apple card account when Apple refused to stop deadnaming me on it without court documents.
AmEx et al never disrespected me thus.
AmEx et al never disrespected me thus.
Can you elaborate on this? (If it's too traumatic to talk about no worries. I'm just curious.) If I recall when my spouse changed her name after we got married, she also had to send in the appropriate government documentation. Are you saying that you were able to just call up AmEx and say, "Please change my name from Y to X" and they just did it without any requirement to prove it was still you? (That sounds like a huge security hole, if so.) I'd be interested to understand this in more detail if you're up for explaining it. But if not, I understand.
Their name change policy really is a bit ridiculous. I know somebody that had their first name printed in lowercase on the card because Apple/GS absolutely refused to change the first letter to uppercase without a birth certificate. Photo state ID would not do…
That said, asking for official documentation for a name change seems like standard bank policy. Are there banks that make this easier?
That said, asking for official documentation for a name change seems like standard bank policy. Are there banks that make this easier?
I wasn't asking for a name change on the account, just that they issue a card with the correct name on it.
Every other payment card creditor I have will issue me cards with whatever name I ask for on it. The name on the account/statement is irrelevant.
Every other payment card creditor I have will issue me cards with whatever name I ask for on it. The name on the account/statement is irrelevant.
Ah, did they also copy over that name from your Apple account and then refused to put another one on the card?
That is indeed ridiculous – what makes that name (not validated with any government documents) more authentic than the one provided later on?
That is indeed ridiculous – what makes that name (not validated with any government documents) more authentic than the one provided later on?
Strange considering that you subscribe to crockers rules.
Number of transactions would have been more informative than the total dollar amount.
Does it mean your i-devices will stop working as well? At least the emails I assume, maybe imessages...
If google shots down your account, you are out of docs, youtube, gmail... This can literally kill your career.
Not to mentions all the "sign up with google/apple" you used.
If google shots down your account, you are out of docs, youtube, gmail... This can literally kill your career.
Not to mentions all the "sign up with google/apple" you used.
The linked post doesn't actually say "If you don't pay your credit card bill we disable your iTunes/iCloud"
What it actually says is "If you don't pay your credit card bill, we decline new transactions since you're at your credit limit. If your iCloud uses your Apple Card and that transaction is declined, then your iCloud may be disabled."
What it actually says is "If you don't pay your credit card bill, we decline new transactions since you're at your credit limit. If your iCloud uses your Apple Card and that transaction is declined, then your iCloud may be disabled."
Apple apologists should probably work on replacing their "bUt GoOgLe!" routines, since people have largely moved on from the Google ecosystem as a whole - and in some cases, like this one, Google is not even present in the same market (credit cards).
I don’t think so, but it’s trending more in that direction as Apple spins up more services.
Just "disable" ? At what point do they toss your data in the trash ?
My laptop died recently, and I went with an M2 MBP. I went in expecting to pay it in full, but with no interest/fees, why wouldn't I choose this? It beats inflation, even if only minimally.
Seems predatory towards people who are buying stuff they can't afford, otherwise I don't see how they make money (minus the overpriced laptop I just bought, I guess).
Seems predatory towards people who are buying stuff they can't afford, otherwise I don't see how they make money (minus the overpriced laptop I just bought, I guess).
It's very easy for this to push people into buying more than they need.
90% of people are fine with an M1 Air, the last time I went to an Apple store the sales clerk straight up refused to sell me one. He basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about and kept trying to sell me a pro.
I asked him 3 times to sell me an Air, and ended up leaving in frustration. Not before he pitched buying a pro on an Apple line of credit instead.
If I come into a store and tell you what I want to buy, we're not having a conversation. You have no idea what or who I'm buying it for.
Best Buy doesn't do this, I was able to get my Air without an argument and walk out.
If anything, this pay later stuff will make the issue worse. You'll go into the Apple store to be told you might as well get the most expensive thing they have in stock, it's zero down anyway!
90% of people are fine with an M1 Air, the last time I went to an Apple store the sales clerk straight up refused to sell me one. He basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about and kept trying to sell me a pro.
I asked him 3 times to sell me an Air, and ended up leaving in frustration. Not before he pitched buying a pro on an Apple line of credit instead.
If I come into a store and tell you what I want to buy, we're not having a conversation. You have no idea what or who I'm buying it for.
Best Buy doesn't do this, I was able to get my Air without an argument and walk out.
If anything, this pay later stuff will make the issue worse. You'll go into the Apple store to be told you might as well get the most expensive thing they have in stock, it's zero down anyway!
That’s crazy! I use my M1 Air for everything and it’s excellent. I would have asked to talk to his manager.
Oh it gets better than that, I walked into the store and asked to buy a MacBook Air.
The first clerk disappears, and some kid who is roughly 19 starts lecturing me about how much better the pro is. I politely respond, I just want to buy the Air.
He insists, 'well , do you want to make music '. I respond, 'please sell me the Air'. At this point he's not budging. I ask a final time, and ask why are you making this interaction so difficult.
Him: 'well you're making it difficult'.
I walk out and go to Best Buy. At Best Buy I simply asked to buy an Air, and I was out in 5 minutes.
Now truth be told, if the kid would have told me he needs to push a certain number of pros per month, I might have said okay and brought one. But instead he decided to insult me, I even explained that as a software engineer I knew exactly what I was talking about. I shouldn't need to explain anything when I'm trying to buy a product, it's none of your business if I prefer an M1 air because I routinely dropped my laptops. If it's a gift for someone else, or in reality it does the job I need it to do.
I'm legitimately never going into an Apple store again after this.
The first clerk disappears, and some kid who is roughly 19 starts lecturing me about how much better the pro is. I politely respond, I just want to buy the Air.
He insists, 'well , do you want to make music '. I respond, 'please sell me the Air'. At this point he's not budging. I ask a final time, and ask why are you making this interaction so difficult.
Him: 'well you're making it difficult'.
I walk out and go to Best Buy. At Best Buy I simply asked to buy an Air, and I was out in 5 minutes.
Now truth be told, if the kid would have told me he needs to push a certain number of pros per month, I might have said okay and brought one. But instead he decided to insult me, I even explained that as a software engineer I knew exactly what I was talking about. I shouldn't need to explain anything when I'm trying to buy a product, it's none of your business if I prefer an M1 air because I routinely dropped my laptops. If it's a gift for someone else, or in reality it does the job I need it to do.
I'm legitimately never going into an Apple store again after this.
That is shocking to me, and you'd be doing everybody else a favor if you let the store know about it, so that guy can be terminated or at least retrained. I've never had an experience anything like that, and I know that's not the norm at Apple stores. Wow!
Ohh that's just mean, I'm not trying to get anyone fired. I'll just never shop at an Apple store again. I'm sure plenty of people walk in wanting to spend the least amount possible.
Then end up leaving with a 2500$ computer, no big deal it's only 200$ a month.
Then end up leaving with a 2500$ computer, no big deal it's only 200$ a month.
You certainly have no responsibility at all to help a multi-trillion dollar company fix themselves! Nor to ever shop with that company. You do you!
That said, I hope my comment and the subsequent upvotes make it clear that your experience seems very unusual. I have never felt pressured to buy anything on my numerous visits, and was even talked into buying a cheaper option of two things I considered once, and another time it was suggested I go to Best Buy rather than buy anything from Apple.
They're not paid commission to avoid situations like the one you described, so it's really strange to me that happened. That's all!
That said, I hope my comment and the subsequent upvotes make it clear that your experience seems very unusual. I have never felt pressured to buy anything on my numerous visits, and was even talked into buying a cheaper option of two things I considered once, and another time it was suggested I go to Best Buy rather than buy anything from Apple.
They're not paid commission to avoid situations like the one you described, so it's really strange to me that happened. That's all!
Other comments down stream indicate they do have KPIs. Maybe the kpis are for financing, I'm not sure. Someone who goes into a store only looking to buy a MacBook Air is probably doing so because of cost.
So logically you want to push as many people into buying more if you want to sell the financing.
Regardless, the entire point of BNPL is to encourage you to buy more than you need.
So logically you want to push as many people into buying more if you want to sell the financing.
Regardless, the entire point of BNPL is to encourage you to buy more than you need.
Well, do be aware... I don't think that Best Buy _technically_ pays commissions based on sales, but they do often have reps from brands around who will try to sell you heavily on their product (e.g. Samsung reps.)
I've also heard stories that while you won't get a commission, you may get more perks at work for higher sales numbers.
In any case, your experience at Apple sounds insane.
I've also heard stories that while you won't get a commission, you may get more perks at work for higher sales numbers.
In any case, your experience at Apple sounds insane.
Best Buy isn't perfect, but in general they're much lighter on the 'advice' they try to give you. Their commission is in selling useless warranties, if a clerk does a good job I'll buy one as a tip.
There's no commission at Best Buy. IIRC, Circuit City was the last major US-based electronics retailer to end commission-based sales, and that happened in... 2004, maybe? Something like that.
Employees are judged on warranty sales, and when I worked at Circuit City back in the days when they, uh, existed, we were also judged based on profitability of sales.
Employees are judged on warranty sales, and when I worked at Circuit City back in the days when they, uh, existed, we were also judged based on profitability of sales.
> Now truth be told, if the kid would have told me he needs to push a certain number of pros per month, I might have said okay and brought one.
Which is why they nag you. I don't really understand this mindset but there's no question it exists. And there's no question the paperclip machine will have its goddamn paperclips.
Probably the 19yr old will eventually get turned into Solyent and replaced with a more polite/savvy version - and you will succumb and buy a pro you don't need just to be nice. And numbers will tick upwards.
Which is why they nag you. I don't really understand this mindset but there's no question it exists. And there's no question the paperclip machine will have its goddamn paperclips.
Probably the 19yr old will eventually get turned into Solyent and replaced with a more polite/savvy version - and you will succumb and buy a pro you don't need just to be nice. And numbers will tick upwards.
What's weirder about this is that... most 'pros' really need more than stock stuff you can get at a retail store anyway. If you need an M2 MBP, you probably want it to be 64g or 96g, and probably want 2tb storage. I've never seen anything but stock/base configurations at retail stores (best buy, apple, etc). Perhaps they occasionally have variations? Or the stores I've been to are just... lower on the priority list for top-end configurations?
Which country? US? I would have taken his/her name and asked to speak with the manager.
If you want to talk about what 90% of people are "fine" with, honestly it's a Chromebook.
I have a Chromebook I bought in 2018 for something like $200, and it's "fine" for gmail, online banking, youtube, and other casual stuff. I have an ssh app on it to use for work, and that's "fine" as well. Most people don't need more than this.
I have a Chromebook I bought in 2018 for something like $200, and it's "fine" for gmail, online banking, youtube, and other casual stuff. I have an ssh app on it to use for work, and that's "fine" as well. Most people don't need more than this.
You can get a Chromebook for $149 today right now at Walmart.
And a windows 11 craptop for $200. These things are absolutely completely insanely cheap.
And a windows 11 craptop for $200. These things are absolutely completely insanely cheap.
Do the apple sales people get commission? I seldom enjoy working with people looking to influence me to do something so that they can grow their comission.
Do the apple sales people get commission?
It's been widely reported on the internet that Apple salespeople are not on commission, which is what makes the OP's story so curious.
Maybe it's changed since the pandemic.
It's been widely reported on the internet that Apple salespeople are not on commission, which is what makes the OP's story so curious.
Maybe it's changed since the pandemic.
If I've gotten any kind of general attitude at all from Apple Store employees since the pandemic, it's mainly one of "Why are you here?" Maybe this employee wanted to take advantage of the rare opportunity to do something other than retrieving people's pick-up orders and actually try to sell something, but this is deeply untypical for shopping at the Apple Store.
>It's been widely reported on the internet that Apple salespeople are not on commission, which is what makes the OP's story so curious.
It has also been widely reported that Apple invented USB-C and gave away for free, and All AirPod were sold at cost or at lost.
The No commission thing were from Steve Jobs era for pete sake. How long ago was that?
Depending on regions all Apple retail employees have KPIs. And we are coming close to 10 years since it’s first introduction.
It has also been widely reported that Apple invented USB-C and gave away for free, and All AirPod were sold at cost or at lost.
The No commission thing were from Steve Jobs era for pete sake. How long ago was that?
Depending on regions all Apple retail employees have KPIs. And we are coming close to 10 years since it’s first introduction.
They don't work on commission but they still have sales targets for attachments like AppleCare and, most likely, the credit card.
Right? This story sounds sus to me. I've visited Apple stores so many times and literally never had a pushy salesperson.
Surely, your anecdotal experiences represent all experiences ever.
They probably have targets. Everything they do is tracked, including sales they close.
This is what they used to be good at - not trying to sell you too hard.
I guess that has changed - I also had several strange unpleasant interactions lately. Either difficulty buying something, or annoyance being sold on something more or something else.
I guess that has changed - I also had several strange unpleasant interactions lately. Either difficulty buying something, or annoyance being sold on something more or something else.
I get trying to upsell you, but why would you turn down a sale? Make the suggestion and then let the customer purchase whatever they want. A sale is a sale, no?
Imagine the commission (not saying it’s such) is $0 on the base model and $199 on the top end.
Why bother giving the customer what they want if there’s any chance they’d jump for the big one?
Why bother giving the customer what they want if there’s any chance they’d jump for the big one?
This representative is just tanking Apple's reputation for his own gain, that's what it looks like from the outside.
Like I said many times and keep being downvoted, their Apple Store KPI does not align with the original Apple Store experience.
Remember, it beats inflation in a theoretical sense, but only if you actually will do something with the extra cash today. If your salary won’t change during the loan, and you’re not investing the money you didn’t spend, then you’re not realizing any gains against inflation. In fact, you’re just giving yourself less money tomorrow, when inflation should make other goods more expensive.
My savings account makes 3.5% interest.
My only catch is this loan requires a soft credit report - I have a freeze on most of my credit scores (used to be there were only 3 now there are a few more). Even a soft pull will hit that barrier.
My only catch is this loan requires a soft credit report - I have a freeze on most of my credit scores (used to be there were only 3 now there are a few more). Even a soft pull will hit that barrier.
Hypothetically, you could pop that money into a checking account with extremely marginal interest and still make money. Better in your pocket than Apple's, I guess.
The $25 you might make from saving $1000 is, to me, not worth the cost of having a reoccurring debt to service. Especially in the face of layoffs etc. I suppose someone might say a monthly payment is preferable to less savings in that situation… so I guess the financing could work in your favor depending on your situation.
A 0% is always better than paying upfront. There is the money you make from your saving account, the safety of having more available savings...
The only downside of taking a 0% loan is if you're bad at finance and getting that loan makes you spend more. Either by buying something more expensive that you would without the loan, or buying more stuff with the money you didn't have to give upfront.
The only downside of taking a 0% loan is if you're bad at finance and getting that loan makes you spend more. Either by buying something more expensive that you would without the loan, or buying more stuff with the money you didn't have to give upfront.
That doesn’t make sense. The comparison is the $1000 being gone today.
It only applies up to $1,000, and if you used an Apple Card you'd get 3% back on your purchase. If your purchase happened at the beginning of your credit card month, you'd also get 4 weeks of free float, versus the 6 weeks you get here. Doesn't seem like an amazing deal, if a reward credit card is an option, and assuming they'd give you the same thousand dollars of credit.
I think the OP is referring to the financing options available for larger hardware purchases, which is separate from this program.
I bought my M1 MBP using the financing they offer and it was 24 months, no interest, _and_ you do get the 3% back immediately upon purchase. They also set up the payment plan for you so you do not have to worry about missing a payment and getting charged interest you were intentionally avoiding.
It's a great option if you are on top of your finances, but the point remains that it can easily be used to live outside of your means.
I bought my M1 MBP using the financing they offer and it was 24 months, no interest, _and_ you do get the 3% back immediately upon purchase. They also set up the payment plan for you so you do not have to worry about missing a payment and getting charged interest you were intentionally avoiding.
It's a great option if you are on top of your finances, but the point remains that it can easily be used to live outside of your means.
Isn't max credit card float closer to 7 weeks? If you buy something the day after statement close, it takes 4 weeksish to issue another statement, and is due in another 3 weeks. Obviously if you bought at the wrong time in the cycle, the day before statement close, your float can be as little as 3 weeks.
Yeah, good point, although this will vary. And the six weeks you get from Apple Pay is only on the last payment.
Apple Card has had BNPL for Apple Store purchases for a while, and it's not subject to the $1,000 limit that this new service is.
Just to add, a store person in Modesto Apple told me in order to get 0% apr for 24 months on new phone, that phone has to be tied/locked with a carrier for the duration of loan. I knew that was a load of crap, as 24 months is between me & bank/apple card/goldman. Its not like phone will be held as security. So I paid in full by apple card, and called apple card customer service right outside of store right away, and they made it a 0% apr 24 month plan, with no change to unlocked phone.
> Seems predatory towards people who are buying stuff they can't afford, otherwise I don't see how they make money (minus the overpriced laptop I just bought, I guess).
That's exactly why they're doing this, to get people who can't afford Apple's products to buy them anyway. Compare with what Tim Cook said in February:
> The price of the most expensive iPhone model has increased by more than half — from $962 to $1,600 since 2009 when adjusted for inflation — but Apple CEO Tim Cook doesn't appear worried about increasing prices.
> During an earnings call with investors on Thursday, Cook said he believes people are willing to pay more because the phone has become "so integral into people's lives."
> "I think people are willing to really stretch to get the best they can afford in that category," Cook said, responding to a question on whether the increasing average sales price over the last few years is "sustainable."
"Willing to really stretch" is just another way of saying "spending more than they should".
That's exactly why they're doing this, to get people who can't afford Apple's products to buy them anyway. Compare with what Tim Cook said in February:
> The price of the most expensive iPhone model has increased by more than half — from $962 to $1,600 since 2009 when adjusted for inflation — but Apple CEO Tim Cook doesn't appear worried about increasing prices.
> During an earnings call with investors on Thursday, Cook said he believes people are willing to pay more because the phone has become "so integral into people's lives."
> "I think people are willing to really stretch to get the best they can afford in that category," Cook said, responding to a question on whether the increasing average sales price over the last few years is "sustainable."
"Willing to really stretch" is just another way of saying "spending more than they should".
If you're in the US and have good credit, you can do better by opening a credit card with a 0% APR period for 12+ months in addition to a sign-up bonus (e.g., Chase Freedom Unlimited, Amex Blue Business Plus), although that takes a little more effort.
> Chase Freedom Unlimited
> After the intro period, a variable APR of 19.49%–28.24%
I suppose it isn't an issue if you pay your card off every month, but that's a high APR.
> After the intro period, a variable APR of 19.49%–28.24%
I suppose it isn't an issue if you pay your card off every month, but that's a high APR.
My score is always in 660-760 range over yearly view, and many of my cards are around 24 to 29 % apr. But as you said, I pay all of them every month, so zero interest paid since 2019. Only a credit unions rewards visa is 12%.
You don't need to pay it off every month during the intro APR period: pay the minimum for the first N statements, then pay the full balance, and you'll pay $0 in interest or fees.
Just don't forget, because if you're late paying off the balance they will usually charge interest retroactive to the opening date of the account (not sure that is the case in this specific example).
If one is worried about forgetting, this probably isn't a good hack, but it should be possible to (a) buy a T-bill or CD maturing near the balance due date and (b) use Bill Pay to schedule a payment for the balance due.
It's always good to understand what the policy is on an offer like this, but most credit card intro rates are not like this - it is typically store charge accounts that offer "12 months same as cash" that accrue interest and add it if not repaid during the time offered.
PayPal Credit (a specific credit line) does that. Discover, Wells Fargo, Chase, Capital one, all wanted to start interest from the date intro apr ended.
"Hey Siri, set a reminder in 12 months to get a new credit card."
Even if you pay everything each month the company makes 2-3% on you minus whatever cash back, which is 12-30+% a year on your monthly spend. You just don’t see it directly.
In that case, this is essentially just a credit card (without the benefits/protections).
The use case here seems to be people who would not actually be able to pay this off in a month.
The use case here seems to be people who would not actually be able to pay this off in a month.
The use case is people who do not qualify for a traditional 2% cash back or equivalent credit card. Surely Apple does want people who can pay their Apple BNPL debt per the schedule.
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When you do BNPL you forgo the credit card rewards you would otherwise get, which can easily be valued at 3-5% of the purchase (I.e. more than the benefit of taking the free credit)
At least apple card allows 24 installments with 0 apr & 3% cashback up front for apple products at apple store.
Same reason I can eat a single donut and be fine while my best mate won't stop until the box is empty
People make poor decisions, a lot of people make poor financial decisions, what is a great tool when you're educated is a catastrophe for others
The new wave of "pay later" payment systems is clearly a way to artificially boost consumption in the short term
People make poor decisions, a lot of people make poor financial decisions, what is a great tool when you're educated is a catastrophe for others
The new wave of "pay later" payment systems is clearly a way to artificially boost consumption in the short term
Is it just that? Or is this Apple doing the math and deciding the risk they assume is less than they save from credit card fees?
Apple Card already had financing for laptops, in a more compelling monthly plan instead of 6 weeks. Same no-interest/fees setup.
you probably aren't the target
the target is uneducated (in the financial sense) consumers who are enticed into making purchases they might otherwise not make (and probably shouldn't make)
Apple probably wants to get at the consumers who are still buying cheap Android phones who will be bowled over by the psychology of splitting the purchase price into installments
the target is uneducated (in the financial sense) consumers who are enticed into making purchases they might otherwise not make (and probably shouldn't make)
Apple probably wants to get at the consumers who are still buying cheap Android phones who will be bowled over by the psychology of splitting the purchase price into installments
If you think you need this you certainly shouldn't use it.
This is honestly disgusting predatory behaviour which seems to be rampant in Fintech right now. The majority of people they are targeting for this service shouldn't be put in the position to have this available to them.
> right now
lol wut. son, spend 10 minutes reading about payday loans, many of the big economic crashes, shady practices by banks, and crypto. fintech isn't a thing, it's just a way to enable already existing behaviors that finance does all the time; it's always been predatory.
lol wut. son, spend 10 minutes reading about payday loans, many of the big economic crashes, shady practices by banks, and crypto. fintech isn't a thing, it's just a way to enable already existing behaviors that finance does all the time; it's always been predatory.
BNPL schemes are (or at least were as of a year ago) destroying Gen Z. This one may be less destructive as it doesn't look like interest rates are a thing, but still. Don't get into the habit of spend ing money you don't have.
Speculation, but the lack of interest rates is probably more destructive. The profit here comes from more usage on Apples cc system rather than some other bank taking the rake. Apple is incentivized to make “spending money you don’t have” as easy as possible - it directly benefits from it - and thus makes it even more appealing with no interest rates.
Is there any data on this? Not trying to refute, just genuinely interested in impact over generations.
QuadPay, Affirm, Apple now, there are SO many schemes going on to entice people who can't actually afford things to buy them with credit and destroy themselves financially. It's very common and your request for data strikes me the same as if you had asked if there's data on whether the Sun shines. It's just so obvious it's mind-boggling to question it.
But buying a MacBook Air can be a best investment if a person want to be a developer or designer. I agree that it's generally bad, especially for wasting for something like fashion or too expensive iPhone Pro.
You don't need an MacBook if you want to be a designer or developer. The premium you pay for Apple products is not an investment.
Need... STUFF!
I am surprised to see Apple getting into the "buy now, pay later" game, as it's always seemed like a murky industry that works by exploiting poor people who aren't very good with money, and not something I'd expect Apple to want to be associated with. Can anyone steelman it for me? Is there a way of looking at this industry/practice other than "exploitative and predatory"?
A credit card lets me delay payment for a month otherwise it’s 30% interest. These schemes let me delay for multiple months for free otherwise it’s 8% interest.
It’s 1000% better
It’s 1000% better
When businesses buy now and pay later, it’s smart business. When consumers do it, they’re being taken advantage of?
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Credit cards are commonplace, aren't they? They offer buy now, pay later any consumer product already.
But sure, it's exploitative, they want a piece of that already existing cake.
But sure, it's exploitative, they want a piece of that already existing cake.
From the press release:
> [users want] flexible payment options
Being able to spread some large purchase over multiple pay periods seems like a obvious use case.
> [users want] flexible payment options
Being able to spread some large purchase over multiple pay periods seems like a obvious use case.
Feels to me that something like this cheapens Apple's brand.
I don't mean to imply that they had an expensive brand and this changes the demographic (I hate businesses like that), I mean their brand, as far as I can tell, is "high quality, thought through, and works well".* This feels like they are exploiting their existing customer base.
* Pls don't argue if you disagree on the actual quality or whatever. This is about how it looks to me that they position themselves. Feel free to argue about how they might be positioning themselves :-)
I don't mean to imply that they had an expensive brand and this changes the demographic (I hate businesses like that), I mean their brand, as far as I can tell, is "high quality, thought through, and works well".* This feels like they are exploiting their existing customer base.
* Pls don't argue if you disagree on the actual quality or whatever. This is about how it looks to me that they position themselves. Feel free to argue about how they might be positioning themselves :-)
They already cheapened their brand beyond this when they created a credit card. CC is another form of BNPL, but more importantly, it's the most gimmicky business out there.
They did not create a credit card. Goldman Sachs (GS) does all the financial work, and gives Apple a cut for the branding.
Same thing here. GS is doing the underwriting, Apple is just providing the tech to be able to access the customer at the point of sale and make a split second automated offer for GS to lend money.
Edit: I was wrong about GS doing the underwriting. The website states:
>Apple Pay Later is offered by Apple Financing LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc., which is responsible for credit assessment and lending. Apple Financing plans to report Apple Pay Later loans to U.S. credit bureaus starting this fall,5 so they are reflected in users’ overall financial profiles and can help promote responsible lending for both the lender and the borrower.
Same thing here. GS is doing the underwriting, Apple is just providing the tech to be able to access the customer at the point of sale and make a split second automated offer for GS to lend money.
Edit: I was wrong about GS doing the underwriting. The website states:
>Apple Pay Later is offered by Apple Financing LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc., which is responsible for credit assessment and lending. Apple Financing plans to report Apple Pay Later loans to U.S. credit bureaus starting this fall,5 so they are reflected in users’ overall financial profiles and can help promote responsible lending for both the lender and the borrower.
My take is that the real business opportunity for Apple here is fraud reduction, not just the Apple branding.
The biggest cost to any credit card provider is fraud, which they have to cover. Credit card fraud is $100B+/year. The Apple Card requires an iPhone and by leveraging iOS they can cut down on fraud. This lets them negotiate a better cut of the revenue from Goldman Sachs.
I suspect the iPhone integration even cuts down on fraud when you use the physical Apple Card directly. Leveraging location and activity data from your paired iPhone/Apple ID probably gives them many useful signals for fraud prevention. And you'll notice that Apple seems to have extra logic for detecting jailbroken iPhones when you try to sign up for the Apple Card or add it to your wallet. (App Store and various other Apple services still work, but not the wallet/Apple Card related features when jailbroken)
The biggest cost to any credit card provider is fraud, which they have to cover. Credit card fraud is $100B+/year. The Apple Card requires an iPhone and by leveraging iOS they can cut down on fraud. This lets them negotiate a better cut of the revenue from Goldman Sachs.
I suspect the iPhone integration even cuts down on fraud when you use the physical Apple Card directly. Leveraging location and activity data from your paired iPhone/Apple ID probably gives them many useful signals for fraud prevention. And you'll notice that Apple seems to have extra logic for detecting jailbroken iPhones when you try to sign up for the Apple Card or add it to your wallet. (App Store and various other Apple services still work, but not the wallet/Apple Card related features when jailbroken)
Apple Pay also reduces fraud, but it costs the user the same in the end. Maybe they're making money this way.
See my other comment, but I just read that when you use Apple Card + Apple Pay together they give you 2% cash back. To me this really seems like more evidence that the fraud prevention of Apple Card + Apple Pay works well enough they can make this offering.
2% is the same or a bit less than what other cards would give you.
Maybe, but I think if that were really the case, they would have at least offered 2% cash back on all purchases to be competitive with other credit cards. That is the baseline free credit card that anyone credit card worthy can get.
Apple Card does offer 2% cash back on all purchases! But only when you pay use an Apple Card via Apple Pay, not when you pay with the physical card. I suspect this is because when Apple Pay is used they have particularly good fraud prevention allowing them to offer this in that case.
Lots of other cards give 2% cash back without Apple Pay and Apple’s advantages in fraud prevention, so I would expect Apple to be able to offer even more cash back if they wanted to attract other credit card users.
We're talking about branding. Apple is the one selling the card to customers, so it's their brand at stake, not GS's.
Branded financing options have nothing to do with brand prestige. Luxury car brands do it. High fashion houses do it. High street department stores have been doing it longer than either of us have been alive. It doesn't turn anyone off to a brand.
Basically every single retail business brands a credit card. What difference would it make? Every airline, hotel, and retail store offers their own branded cc. Even Costco does, and that is about as high of brand reputation as you can get.
Yes, exactly. Those aren't seen as tech companies. Apple has cheapened their brand to that of an airline or hotel, or Costco at best. It's not terrible, but it's not the visionary company it used to be.
This is nothing new. Apple's been in the BNPL finance game since the original iMac was introduced - so if they're tarnishing the brand, they've been doing it since they completely rebooted the brand.
In 1998, you could finance a G3 iMac with a loan for ~70 months of $29 payments. They also started up a store-only credit card finance option sometime in the early aughts via Barclays.
In 1998, you could finance a G3 iMac with a loan for ~70 months of $29 payments. They also started up a store-only credit card finance option sometime in the early aughts via Barclays.
I'm aware that they've always offered financing, as many do, but it wasn't branded as a product like the Apple Card is. The product was the iMac. This time, the product is the card itself, complete with a brand name and heavy advertising. They're likening themselves to Citibank or Walmart.
I agree completely. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but I really cannot imagine Apple doing this under Steve Jobs' management. He would have rejected it simply for seeming tacky and reminiscent of products in low quality industries.
I was thinking the same thing. My understanding was prior to iPhone, phones were purchased outright, typically costing a couple hundred dollars, and there wasn't such a thing as paying off the phone as part of your monthly cell phone bill.
I have always purchased my phones outright, but am curious if there are fees, interest, or a higher total cost of payments via financing (fees and interest on missed payments).
That's the only justification I could use to say "maybe Steve would be good with it".
I have always purchased my phones outright, but am curious if there are fees, interest, or a higher total cost of payments via financing (fees and interest on missed payments).
That's the only justification I could use to say "maybe Steve would be good with it".
> I was thinking the same thing. My understanding was prior to iPhone, phones were purchased outright, typically costing a couple hundred dollars, and there wasn't such a thing as paying off the phone as part of your monthly cell phone bill.
This was absolutely a thing before the iPhone. Many carriers offered Blackberries, Palm Treos, and even higher end dumbphones and featurephones at discounts when you signed a service contract.
This was absolutely a thing before the iPhone. Many carriers offered Blackberries, Palm Treos, and even higher end dumbphones and featurephones at discounts when you signed a service contract.
> Apple Pay users can split purchases into four payments with zero interest and no fees
What's the business model for all these BNPL companies if they have zero fees and zero APR?
Are they counting on some % of users requiring extensions?
Are they getting a % of transaction value as fees?
What's the business model for all these BNPL companies if they have zero fees and zero APR?
Are they counting on some % of users requiring extensions?
Are they getting a % of transaction value as fees?
> Are they getting a % of transaction value as fees?
Yes, this. And it's worth it for the merchant because they make more sales. patio11 has a good article about it: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/buy-now-pay-later/
Yes, this. And it's worth it for the merchant because they make more sales. patio11 has a good article about it: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/buy-now-pay-later/
The merchant pays at least double the rate compared to a normal credit card transaction fees. Merchant pays more for the payment processing and gets better conversion.
https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/buy-now-pay-later/
https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/buy-now-pay-later/
But Apple BNPL applies to all merchants that accept Apple Pay. I cannot imagine that Target/Albertsons/Trader Joes/Costco/etc agreed to pay an extra 3% in payment processing fees if their customer chooses to use Apple BNPL.
Apple is taking the fee from cash back % (2% on everything).
Amazon does the same - you can buy a thing with 0% APR in 6 monthly payments, but you lose your Amazon card 5% cash back.
Amazon does the same - you can buy a thing with 0% APR in 6 monthly payments, but you lose your Amazon card 5% cash back.
I am referring to this line in the bitsaboutmoney.com article:
>BNPLs pitch themselves to businesses as more marketing efforts and less simple payments rails. They’re more expensive than cards by about 300 bps.
I assume this is all the same as Goldman Sachs’ Apple credit card. The same payment fees from merchant to Goldman Sachs, and then Apple might get a little too. Since Goldman is taking all the underwriting risk, I would be surprised if Apple is getting the lions’ share.
Apple’s reward is their devices becoming more popular among people who cannot get credit cards and might find utility in Apple BNPL.
>BNPLs pitch themselves to businesses as more marketing efforts and less simple payments rails. They’re more expensive than cards by about 300 bps.
I assume this is all the same as Goldman Sachs’ Apple credit card. The same payment fees from merchant to Goldman Sachs, and then Apple might get a little too. Since Goldman is taking all the underwriting risk, I would be surprised if Apple is getting the lions’ share.
Apple’s reward is their devices becoming more popular among people who cannot get credit cards and might find utility in Apple BNPL.
Increasing sales by reducing the obstacle of not having all of the money now.
Lots of answers here but for the merchant it's an alternative to a "sale price" to drive a transaction.
If it works like here in Australia, the merchant pays a very high fee, but in return, there are no chargebacks and the BNPL financer pays straight away.
So in return for a high rate (merchant fee for AfterPay here in Australia is 4+%) the merchant gets guaranteed payment and no chargeback risk. The BNPL service makes money on the merchant fees and on the fact that this lending appeals to young people and those with low credit scores.
It's an extension of what used to be called "lay-by" here, but in that case, the merchant wouldn't release the item until it was paid in full.
So in return for a high rate (merchant fee for AfterPay here in Australia is 4+%) the merchant gets guaranteed payment and no chargeback risk. The BNPL service makes money on the merchant fees and on the fact that this lending appeals to young people and those with low credit scores.
It's an extension of what used to be called "lay-by" here, but in that case, the merchant wouldn't release the item until it was paid in full.
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It's both a form of credit and marketing. Some people don't like credit cards for whatever reason.
It's not a lot of credit since you have to pay it back pretty quick, but it does have a similar benefit to paying with a credit card and then paying the monthly statement.
It's not a lot of credit since you have to pay it back pretty quick, but it does have a similar benefit to paying with a credit card and then paying the monthly statement.
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I understand this is instead of the 2% cash back that Apple Card pays on full payments.
I assume the merchant fees are the same either way.
I assume the merchant fees are the same either way.
> I understand this is instead of the 2% cash back that Apple Card pays on full payments.
That would reduce the appeal a little. And that's different than their own-store policy on their card -- if you buy from Apple with an Apple Card on the installment plan, you get the 0% for 12 months or whatever, and you get the 3% cash back too.
Thanks for the 2% comment, by the way. Made me go look, since I only recall it being 1% (for most things). Turns out it's 2% whenever I use my Apple Watch to do the transaction. Works for me!
That would reduce the appeal a little. And that's different than their own-store policy on their card -- if you buy from Apple with an Apple Card on the installment plan, you get the 0% for 12 months or whatever, and you get the 3% cash back too.
Thanks for the 2% comment, by the way. Made me go look, since I only recall it being 1% (for most things). Turns out it's 2% whenever I use my Apple Watch to do the transaction. Works for me!
Transaction fees charged to merchants for these types of payments can be as high as 10%. That's pretty substantial.
I do not think Apple negotiated with every merchant that accepts Apple Pay for a higher fee for Apple BNPL payment. The fact that any Apple Pay transaction qualifies makes me think the regular payment processing fee for a credit card is what Goldman Sachs/Apple get.
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retailer likes it because it increases prospect of sale + it incentivises people to add more things to their basket
Affirm charges merchants a fee for sales.
One of the most valuable life lessons my parents ever taught me was "If you can't afford it now, you can't afford it at all."
YES, there is a time and place for financing (especially when interest rates were near zero and you have good impulse control) but the entire "buy now pay later" industry just reeks of preying on people that aren't as financially literate or have little impulse control, and I won't touch the companies with a ten foot pole.
Honestly a bit disappointing to see this from Apple.
YES, there is a time and place for financing (especially when interest rates were near zero and you have good impulse control) but the entire "buy now pay later" industry just reeks of preying on people that aren't as financially literate or have little impulse control, and I won't touch the companies with a ten foot pole.
Honestly a bit disappointing to see this from Apple.
I used to have this opinion, and I try to take as little debt as possible. However, I've change my opinion in recent years, and I now think it's based on a privileged position that not everyone is in.
Buying a new phone today rather than once I've saved up is a luxury, but buying a replacement phone today rather than being without a phone for ~months while saving up could bring with it significant costs – making it harder to access employment, healthcare, or to socialise. Similar examples would be things like car repairs.
Cash flow is worth something, businesses have known this forever, and people living paycheck to paycheck are typically experts in how to make their money work as well as possible because they're so close to the edge. I trust them that if they think this is the best option for them, it probably is. Payday loans are in the same category here (and businesses call them "commercial paper").
Now, I'd love to live in a society where this isn't necessary, but that's not the world we live in, so I'm in favour of these things being available for those who need them.
Buying a new phone today rather than once I've saved up is a luxury, but buying a replacement phone today rather than being without a phone for ~months while saving up could bring with it significant costs – making it harder to access employment, healthcare, or to socialise. Similar examples would be things like car repairs.
Cash flow is worth something, businesses have known this forever, and people living paycheck to paycheck are typically experts in how to make their money work as well as possible because they're so close to the edge. I trust them that if they think this is the best option for them, it probably is. Payday loans are in the same category here (and businesses call them "commercial paper").
Now, I'd love to live in a society where this isn't necessary, but that's not the world we live in, so I'm in favour of these things being available for those who need them.
A more practical version of this rule is "don't use long term debt to pay for short-term expenses"
When buying a car, or house, or maybe something like a phone that you will use continuously for a number of years, you can make an argument that it's OK to pay for that item over the same time period.
Where people get into more trouble is buying consumable stuff like clothes, food, etc. on to a credit card that they don't pay off every month, and then they end up paying for a box of macaroni or package of underwear over many years (at typically double-digit interest rates).
When buying a car, or house, or maybe something like a phone that you will use continuously for a number of years, you can make an argument that it's OK to pay for that item over the same time period.
Where people get into more trouble is buying consumable stuff like clothes, food, etc. on to a credit card that they don't pay off every month, and then they end up paying for a box of macaroni or package of underwear over many years (at typically double-digit interest rates).
Yes, goal should be to use debt to buy appreciating assets, not depreciating ones.
Of the things most people buy, only houses really fall into that category, and even that is not guaranteed.
Cars depreciate at a frightening rate.
Cars depreciate at a frightening rate.
Payday loans are in the same category but in terms of predatory financial options i feel as though they are a million times worse. I even question how apps like Dave work on this type of model.
If your laptop breaks and you need a new one you are probably better off doing BNPL if you can instead of buying a cheap, crappy one now.
Well it's actually boiled down to if you make money with your laptop. I guess most people on HN are programmers so of course they do. But the question is not good laptop vs crappy laptop, it's consumption vs investment.
What do you’re a student in uni? Averagely, Your laptop won’t make any money until you graduate , get a job , and pay off your loans.
It says “Apple Pay users can split purchases into four payments with zero interest and no fees.”
Seems like a good deal – Apple is giving away money for free, especially given current interest rates.
Seems like a good deal – Apple is giving away money for free, especially given current interest rates.
The BNPL industry isn't some big charity. They offer such deals to hook people in, knowing that a huge chunk of them will miss payments and then they can hit them with interest and fees.
Actually that's not how they make their money, and arguably is a distraction from their real money maker.
https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/buy-now-pay-later/
https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/buy-now-pay-later/
Great link. But I assume Apple BNPL is not collecting 300bps extra processing fees from any and all merchants that accept Apple Pay.
Exactly. However, I think a bigger advantage of this business model is that it simply sells more stuff. It’s way easier to look at your monthly take home income and justify $100 per month for 12 months than a 1 time purchase of $1200. However, the problem is when you make those justifications, it becomes easier to make 10 of those purchases and achieve a debt-income ratio of 5.0 instead of budgeting and keeping a lower debt-income ratio over time.
> It’s way easier to look at your monthly take home income and justify $100 per month for 12 months than a 1 time purchase of $1200.
I think you should note that for apple, they are splitting payments into 4 over 6 weeks. So your example wouldn't fit the discussion we're having here.
I think you should note that for apple, they are splitting payments into 4 over 6 weeks. So your example wouldn't fit the discussion we're having here.
Thank you. That is exactly how people do in countries where splitting payments have been established and common for a long time, making everybody live on the edge in order to prop up consumer spending.
If you actually save your money to only buy things when you can afford them, you can more easily purchase more expensive stuff with cash, since you've already saved up a chunk, and you are also much better prepared for unexpected costs.
If you actually save your money to only buy things when you can afford them, you can more easily purchase more expensive stuff with cash, since you've already saved up a chunk, and you are also much better prepared for unexpected costs.
The lesson I taught myself is to amortize everything so it's thought of as $/time. An upfront purchase has an opportunity cost.
Also, most people can't pay for a house upfront. Mortgages are effectively govt-subsidized, so you usually want one anyway. I directly care what the house will cost me per month, and the bid price is only part of that.
Also, most people can't pay for a house upfront. Mortgages are effectively govt-subsidized, so you usually want one anyway. I directly care what the house will cost me per month, and the bid price is only part of that.
I initially purchased my new iphone 12 in monthly installments, yes I could have paid for it outright, but I didn't see the point in paying ~1k upfront.
If you're referring to a carrier's zero interest payments on the full price of the phone, that's just smart. No penalty for borrowing. If there was interest involved, it gets fuzzier.
I'll amend this by saying that there's also another huge requirement for it to make sense: The new iphone must be necessary for any of this deal to make sense. If it was impulse bought because of this financing offer, then the financing has cost you >$1k
I'll amend this by saying that there's also another huge requirement for it to make sense: The new iphone must be necessary for any of this deal to make sense. If it was impulse bought because of this financing offer, then the financing has cost you >$1k
Apple does it as well, for all(?) of their products now.
no interest 12/24 month payment tied to apple card.
no interest 12/24 month payment tied to apple card.
Last I checked, my carrier (T-Mobile) charges like 10% more than Apple for the same device. They're just baking the interest into the price, it's not really "no interest". Maybe the others don't do that, though, I dunno.
One often forgotten problem is the poor security of carriers. If they have all your financial details for credit purposes they will be leaked.
Exactly. Taking a 15-30 year loan to buy a house makes sense. Using Affirm or Klarna or Apple Pay Later to buy groceries or a new laptop does not.
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>> Honestly a bit disappointing to see this from Apple.
They can't raise prices on the latest iGoodies if no one can afford to buy them.
Buy Now Pay Later can ensure users "can afford" the latest iGoodies instead of having to wait for the price drops on not-the-newest iGoodies.
They are being innovative and enabling their own business to succeed despite the current economic conditions.
They can't raise prices on the latest iGoodies if no one can afford to buy them.
Buy Now Pay Later can ensure users "can afford" the latest iGoodies instead of having to wait for the price drops on not-the-newest iGoodies.
They are being innovative and enabling their own business to succeed despite the current economic conditions.
This is probably sarcasm, but, financing for iGoodies has been available for years. That's not what this feature is :)
I agree in spirit but buying things in installments is just a reality here in Brazil and in a lot of other countries.
It's a loan like any other. When used correctly it can be a democratizing function for people who are poor but need important things like phones, fridges, and stoves.
It's a loan like any other. When used correctly it can be a democratizing function for people who are poor but need important things like phones, fridges, and stoves.
The interest rate on this is zero:
> Apple Pay users can split purchases into four payments with zero interest and no fees
> Apple Pay users can split purchases into four payments with zero interest and no fees
If you have impulse control and can properly conceptualize a loan, it could be a useful tool. In my experience, however, these kinds of programs don't target responsible spenders. People are pretty bad at thinking about monthly cost in terms of total cost.
Totally agree that it's best for responsible people. But what is Apple's goal here — to increase the number of people/merchants using Apple Pay or hitting people with unexpected interest payments, which would sour them on the Apple brand? I would think that they're trying to grow their ecosystem, rather than make money while alienating customers. I could be wrong though — when times are tough, even good companies do lousy things.
I don't really think Apple's interest is in collecting interest on these payments, but I do think it will cause people to use Apple Pay more because it enables (perhaps encourages) them to buy things they otherwise wouldn't buy. That can be good or bad depending on the circumstances, I just expect this will be frequently utilized in an "impulse buy" sort of way because it creates an illusion of affordability.
It sounds suspicious tho. So who takes the risk?
Essentially, Apple. Goldman is getting their pay in transaction fees. Apple is hoping to increase the number of purchases made on Apple's products. You get cash back on each transaction, Goldman gets a percentage of each transaction, Apple just loses a tiny bit of their profit on the sale, but they still made the sale. The only issue then is that debt collection is more expensive. The truth, however, is that most people pay their debts.
You think Apple is lying about this? Or you think that they are hoping that you miss payments and then they (a three trillion dollar company) are going to make a material amount of money on an interest penalty?
> You think Apple is lying about this?
No of course not. I'm not saying Apple is lying.
> Or you think that they are hoping that you miss payments and then they (a three trillion dollar company) are going to make a material amount of money on an interest penalty?
Maybe? I don't know how much banks make from this kind of thing. That "(a three trillion dollar company)" comment is so irrelevant that it's almost laughable tho. Banks are huge companies too, and they still make money from interest.
No of course not. I'm not saying Apple is lying.
> Or you think that they are hoping that you miss payments and then they (a three trillion dollar company) are going to make a material amount of money on an interest penalty?
Maybe? I don't know how much banks make from this kind of thing. That "(a three trillion dollar company)" comment is so irrelevant that it's almost laughable tho. Banks are huge companies too, and they still make money from interest.
Yes, banks are large precisely because they make money this way. The point is that Apple makes huge amounts of money by selling tech products and services, and by having a loyal following. It would be surprising if they decided to trade some of that goodwill for a relatively (in their world) amount of cash.
Miss one of those interest free payments and I suspect it gets expensive very quickly.
Interesting given that JP Morgan lost $1B last year on the Apple card due to failing to correctly model the creditworthiness of customers.
Also surprising that the 3% transaction fee on cards has held up for decades; one would expect that competition would bring it down. Instead, it's created an opportunity for all sorts of businesses.
What I like most about this is that the Apple UI makes it dead-simple to see exactly what you spent and what you owe. To my mind, this is the huge benefit of Apple Pay services: instead of mindlessly throwing the card into any slot and getting a shock at the end of the month, you see your status at any time, including what you just bought. I believe this has huge benefits for people living hectic lives to manage their finances.
Apple's ability to win in personal financial services depends on their ability to reduce the errors, friction, and confusion that lead to support calls and missed payments. Unlike banks and cards that depend on a plethora of dark fees that confuse consumers, Apple's gambit is to smooth it out, particularly for the unsophisticated. If Apple can set the standard for the industry, I'm all for it. (Yes, I'm lookin' at you, GE Capital.)
Are services a distraction for Apple? Goodness, Apple is the economic size and complexity of a small country. Rather than dumping money into buying unrelated companies or X-moonshots that only puff egos, Apple management seems focused on incrementally extending the Apple way where it makes sense: to bring goodness to TV and credit cards and underserved markets, to tax their supply chains with best practices, etc. I wouldn't do it any differently.
Also surprising that the 3% transaction fee on cards has held up for decades; one would expect that competition would bring it down. Instead, it's created an opportunity for all sorts of businesses.
What I like most about this is that the Apple UI makes it dead-simple to see exactly what you spent and what you owe. To my mind, this is the huge benefit of Apple Pay services: instead of mindlessly throwing the card into any slot and getting a shock at the end of the month, you see your status at any time, including what you just bought. I believe this has huge benefits for people living hectic lives to manage their finances.
Apple's ability to win in personal financial services depends on their ability to reduce the errors, friction, and confusion that lead to support calls and missed payments. Unlike banks and cards that depend on a plethora of dark fees that confuse consumers, Apple's gambit is to smooth it out, particularly for the unsophisticated. If Apple can set the standard for the industry, I'm all for it. (Yes, I'm lookin' at you, GE Capital.)
Are services a distraction for Apple? Goodness, Apple is the economic size and complexity of a small country. Rather than dumping money into buying unrelated companies or X-moonshots that only puff egos, Apple management seems focused on incrementally extending the Apple way where it makes sense: to bring goodness to TV and credit cards and underserved markets, to tax their supply chains with best practices, etc. I wouldn't do it any differently.
This seems like a logical and interesting service that should drive quite a few sales for Apple as people impulse-buy status symbols they shouldn't really try to afford.
My big concern with using some of these "pay later" types of services is that it seems incredibly risky to your credit score even if you do everything right and pay it off on time.
If Apple or anybody else can clarify on this point, that would be great. Otherwise, I'd never touch this.
My big concern with using some of these "pay later" types of services is that it seems incredibly risky to your credit score even if you do everything right and pay it off on time.
If Apple or anybody else can clarify on this point, that would be great. Otherwise, I'd never touch this.
They typically don't pull a credit score, or register a loan. They try to maintain a continuous auth for the next month's payment.
That essentially lowers your credit card limit by the payment amount for the lifetime of the loan.
If any single payment fails, they will then try and go for the remainder.
That essentially lowers your credit card limit by the payment amount for the lifetime of the loan.
If any single payment fails, they will then try and go for the remainder.
I don't think a credit pull is the biggest concern here.
Couldn't using this reduce the average age of your accounts, which is a big factor in credit score calculation?
Couldn't using this reduce the average age of your accounts, which is a big factor in credit score calculation?
The only thing that reduces the average age of your accounts is opening new accounts or closing old ones.
It doesn't register a loan, so there's no new account to affect credit score?
You used the word "typically" in the last post, which isn't a very precise or confidence inducing word when dealing with something important to your life.
Apple using its cash surplus to slowly become a bank.
They’re partnering with Goldman Sachs, as they have in the past. Goldman is providing the actual banking services.
This is a traditional path for many large companies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discover_Card
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discover_Card
This is Warren Buffet's forte, allocating massive amounts of capital. Since Apple is his first/only tech company, I wonder if he's playing a part in this.
"The fruit bank will have its due".
Why are people upset about this? Huge win for the _responsible_ consumer. If something is 0% interest, its free money.
My guess - people think it is fooling unsophisticated customers into making poor financial choices and buying things they should know they can't afford.
But I'm with you, I don't see it as a big deal. I routinely take advantage of the 'no interest installment plan' for my Apple toy purchases on my Apple card. Why wouldn't I want to hold off on giving them my money for as long as possible, especially in an inflationary environment?
But I'm with you, I don't see it as a big deal. I routinely take advantage of the 'no interest installment plan' for my Apple toy purchases on my Apple card. Why wouldn't I want to hold off on giving them my money for as long as possible, especially in an inflationary environment?
Even outside the current inflationary period, I like using no-interest financing to give myself the option of paying for something over time.
I don’t typically finance anything I can’t afford to buy outright. I just like to feel like I have extra breathing room in the case of some emergency.
I don’t typically finance anything I can’t afford to buy outright. I just like to feel like I have extra breathing room in the case of some emergency.
Responsible people have already a lot of easy choices for short term free money. Banks almost literally throw credit cards at people, with 45-60 days without any charge (and even with cashback) - assuming that you can afford it.
BNPL usually don't target these people.
BNPL usually don't target these people.
It’s free to end consumer, but these schemes make money by charging a percentage to merchants. And those merchants will compensate by bumping up their prices a little to cover the transaction costs.
In the best case, these are pointless services that only transfer money to the finance industry. In the worst case, they incentivize people to spend money on things they can’t afford (and also transfer money to the finance industry).
In the best case, these are pointless services that only transfer money to the finance industry. In the worst case, they incentivize people to spend money on things they can’t afford (and also transfer money to the finance industry).
My credit card is 0% interest if I pay it off, and I get all sorts of benefits from it. Why would a responsible consumer use this over a credit card?
If a loan is 0% interest, I can guarantee you it comes with a price. And it's most likely paid by people who don't understand it.
That is often the case, but not always: It can make perfect sense for a merchant to effectively pay the interest on your purchase, if it means the difference between making a sale now (and getting a bit less than list price) vs. sitting on inventory.
If it's not the merchant paying for the loan, the story is very different though.
If it's not the merchant paying for the loan, the story is very different though.
Credit cards already let you pay for stuff up to 60 days later with 0% interest. This new service is shorter term than that.
If your credit card pays you back 0% in rewards/cashback, you're the one leaving money on the table.
If you pay a credit card in full, you also don't pay interest, and you usually get at least a month to do so as well.
If you don't pay on time, though, you lose big – with both credit cards and BNPLs.
If you pay a credit card in full, you also don't pay interest, and you usually get at least a month to do so as well.
If you don't pay on time, though, you lose big – with both credit cards and BNPLs.
> Apple Pay Later allows users to split purchases into four payments, spread over six weeks
So you basically have to start paying early, every 1.5 weeks. This seems worse than credit cards where you don't have to pay it up to like 60 days later.
It also seems strictly worse for users than other BNPL's like Affirm where many purchases can be paid over the coarse of several months or years.
So you basically have to start paying early, every 1.5 weeks. This seems worse than credit cards where you don't have to pay it up to like 60 days later.
It also seems strictly worse for users than other BNPL's like Affirm where many purchases can be paid over the coarse of several months or years.
Wow 6 weeks is not good. Monzo Flex is 3 months interest free. PayPal Credit is 4 months interest free.
Feels like Apple is more and more seduced/mesmerized by the opportunity to provide random consumer services that promise large revenues. Why add yet another new product to your portfolio when you're still struggling so much with software quality?
Because companies don't get punished for poor software quality, if they did Oracle would cease to exist.
I'd say Slack, but it seems very popular with cool crowd.
It's got issues but when the other big option is Teams, there's not a lot of room for complaining
This is gonna make a major dent, if not kill Affirm and all the other companies in the BNPL space. Having it integrated is just so convenient.
Yeah, the commenters here are missing a HUGE disruption in the BNPL market. Klarna was already ailing — I wonder if they can survive this punch. Interesting to see how BNPL industry will respond.
I'm not sure about that, grain of salt because I did no research to back this up but aren't apple users in general wealthier and therefore less likely to be the market for this sort of thing?
Supposedly 87% of American teenagers have an iPhone, so Apple does seem to have a wide range of customers.
https://www.howtogeek.com/778355/new-study-says-87-of-us-tee...
https://www.howtogeek.com/778355/new-study-says-87-of-us-tee...
This business practice seems to have become popular lately. It really gives me a bad feeling, probably because the idea of getting your customers into debt (to your own company) in order to buy your products just seems wrong at a fundamental level. I don't want to live in a world where everything is either rented or paid for with a loan.
I can obviously understand why it makes sense from a strictly money point of view, but what is the business strategy against this? All I can think of is pushing a brand message that is explicitly anti-debt and builds its reputation on treating its community of customers well.
I can obviously understand why it makes sense from a strictly money point of view, but what is the business strategy against this? All I can think of is pushing a brand message that is explicitly anti-debt and builds its reputation on treating its community of customers well.
Most people are extremely irresponsible with their money, which means that they don't have much disposable cash. So you will lose sales if you can't offer financing to them. No individual will want to have more than 1 Iphone, so once you've sold to those who can afford it or have the discipline to save up for it, you'll have to find a way to sell to those who can't afford and don't have the discipline. Prepare for all consumer goods in America and Europe to be offered on Buy-Now-Pay-Later plans as standard within 3 years.
I feel like Apple has lost their way with the focus on services.
If they are going to focus on services, they should make them best in class. I expect best in class software, but Apple Music still doesn’t have anything like Spotify Connect and it is still incredibly slow and unreliable software (for what it is).
I don’t understand how tarnishing the premium brand with BNPL is worth it long term. And I especially don’t understand how all of their 0% interest offers will make sense in a world of 5+% interest rates.
If they are going to focus on services, they should make them best in class. I expect best in class software, but Apple Music still doesn’t have anything like Spotify Connect and it is still incredibly slow and unreliable software (for what it is).
I don’t understand how tarnishing the premium brand with BNPL is worth it long term. And I especially don’t understand how all of their 0% interest offers will make sense in a world of 5+% interest rates.
They've been taking the shotgun approach for a while. Their product isn't any individual component, it's the platform as a whole. Why people want a company that sells:
- Phones
- Computers
- Tablets
- Headphones
- AR headsets
- Cars
- Watches
- Streaming boxes
- Speakers
- Email
- Video streaming subscriptions
- News aggregation
- Fitness routine subscriptions
- Music streaming subscriptions
- Video game subscriptions
- eBooks
- Apps
- Cloud storage
- Credit cards
- BPNL
is completely beyond me. Yes there's stuff in there they haven't announced. Yes there are a lot of accessories and services not listed.
I'm probably a Microsoft shill at this point, but I am a .NET dev running Windows and I have a Microsoft 365 family subscription and bought an Xbox. All of my hardware is from other manufacturers. My finances are not tied to MS. I can't think of another company that has gotten the amount of blind trust that Apple has.
- Computers
- Tablets
- Headphones
- AR headsets
- Cars
- Watches
- Streaming boxes
- Speakers
- Video streaming subscriptions
- News aggregation
- Fitness routine subscriptions
- Music streaming subscriptions
- Video game subscriptions
- eBooks
- Apps
- Cloud storage
- Credit cards
- BPNL
is completely beyond me. Yes there's stuff in there they haven't announced. Yes there are a lot of accessories and services not listed.
I'm probably a Microsoft shill at this point, but I am a .NET dev running Windows and I have a Microsoft 365 family subscription and bought an Xbox. All of my hardware is from other manufacturers. My finances are not tied to MS. I can't think of another company that has gotten the amount of blind trust that Apple has.
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Is Spotify Connect distinct from Spotify?
Is there some sort of insurmountable tech debt over at Apple that requires these slow rollouts and long development cycles? They announced Pay later at WWDC 2022, and it's just now releasing, and the Savings account was announced in October and would be available "in the coming months", but is only just now (likely) coming out - and given Pay Later is still limited release, I imagine the savings account feature will be as well.
It probably has less to do with tech and more to do with regulatory, legal, support structure, and process design.
Yuck my two cents. Apples jump into financial services and pay as you go services model has really rubbed me the wrong way. If i get another settings alert that I need to setup apple wallet, sign into icloud or now perhaps a notice that I can “pay later” …… geez I already purchased you laptop … leave me alone and just work.
They should introduce "Apple Pay Never" and make it so I can just buy stuff without paying for it at all.
Well, you wouldn't really be buying stuff at that point...
I've never used a BNPL service, partly because I didn't know if it would complicate the process of returns. Does anyone know if there are complications, for example, if you buy two items and return one of them? Does the merchant give you cash that you then end up using to pay off the full BNPL amount? Or does the refund get routed the other way, to the BNPL service, and then eventually to you?
For users of a reward card, this alternative probably isn't that useful. I'd miss out on 2% cash back, and the zero-interest period is only 6 weeks, which is just a couple weeks longer than the zero-interest period on a credit card (which bills you once a month, effectively giving you 0-4 weeks of zero-interest). I can see how it could be good for younger folks who need to build up credit and can use this to do so responsibly.
For users of a reward card, this alternative probably isn't that useful. I'd miss out on 2% cash back, and the zero-interest period is only 6 weeks, which is just a couple weeks longer than the zero-interest period on a credit card (which bills you once a month, effectively giving you 0-4 weeks of zero-interest). I can see how it could be good for younger folks who need to build up credit and can use this to do so responsibly.
Apple card already allows you to pay in monthly installments with no interest and gives you back 3%: https://www.apple.com/apple-card/monthly-installments/
For people who qualify
My favorite part of all these "buy now pay later" services is going to buy some charging cables, a few bags of flour, or other small random stuff and being offered to split a $19 purchase into 4 equal payments.
> with no impact to their credit[4]
> 4. Upon purchase, a user’s Apple Pay Later loan and payment history may be reported to credit bureaus and impact their credit.
What? Doesn't that footnote directly contradict the text that references it?
> 4. Upon purchase, a user’s Apple Pay Later loan and payment history may be reported to credit bureaus and impact their credit.
What? Doesn't that footnote directly contradict the text that references it?
“Users can apply for a loan within Wallet with no impact to their credit.”
Typically what people worry about are the cost of a hard pull when applying for credit. Apple is saying they will not do a hard pull
Typically what people worry about are the cost of a hard pull when applying for credit. Apple is saying they will not do a hard pull
People should worry about having small short term loans on their credit report, because it could result in other lenders assessing them as a higher risk and therefore a higher interest rate.
For example, you use Apple BNPL, and then in a couple years you go to buy a house, and they see that you use a BNPL service, and so their underwriting classes you as a higher risk and you could end up paying 100bps more on a mortgage.
But the wording on Apple's website is fine since the whole claim is technically true:
>Users can apply for a loan within Wallet with no impact to their credit.
For example, you use Apple BNPL, and then in a couple years you go to buy a house, and they see that you use a BNPL service, and so their underwriting classes you as a higher risk and you could end up paying 100bps more on a mortgage.
But the wording on Apple's website is fine since the whole claim is technically true:
>Users can apply for a loan within Wallet with no impact to their credit.
Yeah I get what you are saying. I bought a cup of coffee from Starbucks and they told me it was hot but they didn't tell me the caffeine could make me restless and dehydrated. Are they bad? Should I sue them?
What's the value proposition of a zero interest/no fee buy now pay later scheme? Is it just reaming folks who miss a payment? A loss leader getting more users into the Wallet ecosystem?
I found this video to be a good explainer: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R1JaMRpcDrQ&pp=ygUbQnV5IG5vIHB...
It seems like many of them act like credit cards and charge the merchant a percentage, since they “drive consumption” and encourage people to buy stuff. Of course, this fee will likely be added into the price that all consumers pay, so as these get bigger, we all will be subsidizing interest free loans to people in the form of 1%-3% higher prices. Much like credit cards are today.
It seems like many of them act like credit cards and charge the merchant a percentage, since they “drive consumption” and encourage people to buy stuff. Of course, this fee will likely be added into the price that all consumers pay, so as these get bigger, we all will be subsidizing interest free loans to people in the form of 1%-3% higher prices. Much like credit cards are today.
My SO recently bought an electric bike using this sort of scheme, not from Apple obviously, but the monthly payments toward the 3500$ bike were less than what it cost to commute to work using public transport before that. So it turned from an being a non trivial investment to an obvious thing to do.
The value proposition to me seems to be that they sold a bike at 3500$ they would not have sold otherwise and they can deal with the payment being made over time rather than all at purchase time.
For the user the value proposition is that value adding purchases like this can be made and paid off while they provide value.
The value proposition to me seems to be that they sold a bike at 3500$ they would not have sold otherwise and they can deal with the payment being made over time rather than all at purchase time.
For the user the value proposition is that value adding purchases like this can be made and paid off while they provide value.
That situation is close to the textbook example for when a debt hawk like Dave Ramsey would tell you it was okay to use a credit card. When you are actually using it to facilitate an investment in your future, not just buying toys. The additional zero-interest aspect is icing on the cake.
> When you are actually using it to facilitate an investment in your future
I might have expressed this poorly, but it wasn’t an “investment in the future”. And that’s exactly what made it interesting. The monthly costs where lower immediately, since the cost of transport which was saved was higher than the monthly cost to pay for the bike. It was just a straight up cost reduction due to the structure of the payment. Had the zero interest monthly payments not been available then it would have been the more typical “investment/ROI over time” situation, and there might be an argument for it still being beneficiary to go into debt to make the purchase because over the long run it would pay of again. But the payment structure just makes everything a thousand times simpler.
I might have expressed this poorly, but it wasn’t an “investment in the future”. And that’s exactly what made it interesting. The monthly costs where lower immediately, since the cost of transport which was saved was higher than the monthly cost to pay for the bike. It was just a straight up cost reduction due to the structure of the payment. Had the zero interest monthly payments not been available then it would have been the more typical “investment/ROI over time” situation, and there might be an argument for it still being beneficiary to go into debt to make the purchase because over the long run it would pay of again. But the payment structure just makes everything a thousand times simpler.
It makes products more “affordable” (emphasis on the quotes) by spreading the payment for them over multiple salary cycles. That TV you didn’t buy because you couldn’t afford it? You told yourself you don’t need it, but now that you can mechanically pay for it, you “need” it so you’ll buy it.
It also allows the sellers to increase their prices or even simply upsell without pricing out their own consumer base.
It also allows the sellers to increase their prices or even simply upsell without pricing out their own consumer base.
making buying higher priced items easier to stomach. This is clearly targeted to people with good credit.
> This is clearly targeted to people with good credit.
The commercials for Apple Pay have me thinking the exact opposite.
* People with good credit don't need to manage their monthly credit payment. They simply pay it all off.
* People with good credit also don't really need to apply for an emergency credit card (unless they happen to forget their wallet).
My impression is many of these products are akin to loan sharks. They loose/break even on "good" borrowers, but make loads on people who are "so close" to being able to fully repay.
The commercials for Apple Pay have me thinking the exact opposite.
* People with good credit don't need to manage their monthly credit payment. They simply pay it all off.
* People with good credit also don't really need to apply for an emergency credit card (unless they happen to forget their wallet).
My impression is many of these products are akin to loan sharks. They loose/break even on "good" borrowers, but make loads on people who are "so close" to being able to fully repay.
Capitalist cannibalisation a level-up from Amazon's pets and cattle categorisation on the fair-game userbase? Accounting minded players game the system to their benefit maximising purchasing power on credit over a timespan.
> Users will be asked to link a debit card from Wallet as their loan repayment method; to help prevent users from taking on more debt to pay back loans, credit cards will not be accepted.
So in addition to the soft pull requirement, it's clear this is almost exclusively targeted at people with good finances.
Not being able to use a credit card is a huger bummer though. Buying something like a macbook pro is a decent way to meet the minimum on a credit card with a signup bonus if you're not a high rolling spender normally.
So in addition to the soft pull requirement, it's clear this is almost exclusively targeted at people with good finances.
Not being able to use a credit card is a huger bummer though. Buying something like a macbook pro is a decent way to meet the minimum on a credit card with a signup bonus if you're not a high rolling spender normally.
The problem is that you cannot pay debt with a credit card.
Same way like you cannot pay your mortgage with a credit card.
Same way like you cannot pay your mortgage with a credit card.
I haven't traditionally made use of services like this, but am I correct in that one might be able to make small gains with them, much as is possible with credit cards?
For example if there's a large purchase one needed to make and had the cash on hand for, wouldn't it be smarter to let most of that cash accrue some interest in one of the many 4%+ interest savings accounts now available while making payments on the 0% interest BNPL?
For example if there's a large purchase one needed to make and had the cash on hand for, wouldn't it be smarter to let most of that cash accrue some interest in one of the many 4%+ interest savings accounts now available while making payments on the 0% interest BNPL?
In theory yes, but this is way less beneficial than just using a credit card.
The average maturity date on Apple (and others) BNPL is 3 weeks. Credit cards have a minimum payment deadline of 3 weeks from the statement without accruing interest, and on average you'll get another 2 weeks on top of that depending on when in the cycle you made the purchase. So you're getting at least the same average time to accrue interest, plus you're getting credit card rewards of 1-5%.
The average maturity date on Apple (and others) BNPL is 3 weeks. Credit cards have a minimum payment deadline of 3 weeks from the statement without accruing interest, and on average you'll get another 2 weeks on top of that depending on when in the cycle you made the purchase. So you're getting at least the same average time to accrue interest, plus you're getting credit card rewards of 1-5%.
No, you are better off with a simple credit card that gives 2% cash back.
This is for people who cannot get approved for a credit card.
This is for people who cannot get approved for a credit card.
How easy do these deferred payment systems make it to manage the cognitive load of such volatile "long-term" payments? Do people just set up autopay?
Having a set of monthly rent/utility costs is fine, cause they aren't particularly volatile.
Credit card microloans are also fine because they are all managed under 1 balance.
Having a set of monthly rent/utility costs is fine, cause they aren't particularly volatile.
Credit card microloans are also fine because they are all managed under 1 balance.
I can't find information on how Apple will specifically implement it, but Sweetwater has a similar thing (they're a music gear shop) and it's auto-billed. You're essentially signing up for a 3 or 6 month subscription service where the monthly bill is 1/3 or 1/6 of the total cost of goods.
It does not speak much confidence about the economy for Apple to be making their own “pay later” mechanism.
Ahh, more "innovation" from the tech industry. So much BS that is easily a net negative to society.
Saturday Night Live had it spot on years ago: https://youtu.be/R3ZJKN_5M44
Saturday Night Live had it spot on years ago: https://youtu.be/R3ZJKN_5M44
If you're short USD, I guess this makes all the sense in the world.
I don't understand what an advantage there is if you finance a purchase but have to pay off the installments every 2 weeks.
I doubt that there are so many people getting paid bi-monthly.
I’ve used the existing payment thing to buy a MacBook Pro on my Apple Card back in 2021. I mean at 0% interest seems like it’s all in your favor if you’re not spending like a dumbass.
Responsible lending is providing collateral and then taking out a loan against that collateral. Don't spend what you don't have. This is not that.
Wow. I can finaly afford an iPhone 14 Pro. /s
Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz. My friends all drive Porsches, i must make amends...
Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes-Benz. My friends all drive Porsches, i must make amends...
With "zero interest and no fees", what happens in these products if somebody falls behind, or even just decides not to pay?
Good question! I don't see anything about it, other than that it'll damage your credit history.
To me this seems like a recipe for trouble, I'll stay away from it.
There's also a part of my brain that jumps to: "if you missed a payment, would they just lock you out of your laptop by some remote command?", though there is no indication of this, and it seems unlikely (as of now).
To me this seems like a recipe for trouble, I'll stay away from it.
There's also a part of my brain that jumps to: "if you missed a payment, would they just lock you out of your laptop by some remote command?", though there is no indication of this, and it seems unlikely (as of now).
Same thing that happens when you refuse to pay your credit card bill, I assume. Annoying bill collectors, maybe a court judgement, and for sure a dramatic cut in your credit score.
What are the financial incentives for Aplle to providing this service for free? US interest rates currently being close to 5 percent.
Likely a percentage of the transaction. In this case, a part of a larger transaction that people can now "afford".
Nothing says "consumers financial interests" like selling them expensive electronics and clothing they can't afford..
And just like that all of the other pay later services just took a massive haircut.
Kind of surprised it took Apple this long to jump on the defer everything train.
God I wish the full Apple pay features were available outside the US
This is just what the world needs during a cost of living crisis.
At what point does apple become a state in and of its own right?
Another Apple "invention" that was all ready invented decades ago.
I will never understand this obsession Americans have with debt.
I still don't understand this obsession everyone else has with finding reasons to criticize Americans. Especially when it's frequently based on ignorance.
The other reply to your comment is pretty instructive. There appears to be a positive correlation between how wealthy a country is and how high the household debt load is.
The other reply to your comment is pretty instructive. There appears to be a positive correlation between how wealthy a country is and how high the household debt load is.
A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. Pair that with American Optimism and trusting the Fed, debt just makes sense. It's basically temporal arbitrage.
China is almost as bad and Norway and Sweden are worse. Basically, if you have lots of money, you have access to lots of credit.
[deleted]
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/HH_LS@GDD/CAN/GBR/US...
USA is bad but not the worst, this is a global plague
USA is bad but not the worst, this is a global plague
Funny how more debt is green in this IMF chart.
I hate this entire industry...Klarna, Affirm...now Apple BNPL
sad that Apple has had to resort to "financializing" their own customer base
sad that Apple has had to resort to "financializing" their own customer base
I mean I had an Apple Loan for students way back in 2000 with an APR % that would have made me pay $8,000 for a 400mhz G4 had I followed their payment schedule...
I saw one of these while checking out on Uber Eats recently.
#1, no, I don't want to spread my $50 worth of sushi out over 4 months
#2, if you do need to do that, maybe you shouldn't be ordering from Uber eats?
It seems extremely parasitical. I'm equally bothered that these companies are doing this and that some consumers feel the need to do this (and think this is a good idea)...
#1, no, I don't want to spread my $50 worth of sushi out over 4 months
#2, if you do need to do that, maybe you shouldn't be ordering from Uber eats?
It seems extremely parasitical. I'm equally bothered that these companies are doing this and that some consumers feel the need to do this (and think this is a good idea)...
When I bought my Centris 650 in college, I bought it using a loan that was initially set up by Apple.
I don't see anything surprising or new about this other than that Apple has an easier way of managing that loan than a book of paper that you ripped one out each month and sent it in along with a paper check.
I don't see anything surprising or new about this other than that Apple has an easier way of managing that loan than a book of paper that you ripped one out each month and sent it in along with a paper check.
iPhones have been financed and or given 0% loans by nearly every carrier and they have $51 billion dollars cash on hand. Providing their own loans makes sense regardless.
Oh wow, they actually are doing their own loans instead of taking the usual route and having a bank provide the financing. From the press release:
> Apple Pay Later is offered by Apple Financing LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc., which is responsible for credit assessment and lending.
> Apple Pay Later is offered by Apple Financing LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc., which is responsible for credit assessment and lending.
https://dcurt.is/apple-card-can-disable-your-icloud-account
I refuse to get an Apple Card until they firewall the two and make them independent of each other.