India’s electric rickshaws(restofworld.org)
restofworld.org
India’s electric rickshaws
https://restofworld.org/2024/e-rickshaw-yc-electric-india/
204 comments
> Your average auto rickshaw or e-rickshaw driver can make around $150-200/mo tax free and eligible for subsidies, making it more competitive than working at a factory ($250-300/mo but 5% income tax and not eligible for subsidies).
It’s before my morning coffee, so I’m likely missing something. How is the factory worker earning less? Are subsidies huge?
It’s before my morning coffee, so I’m likely missing something. How is the factory worker earning less? Are subsidies huge?
> Are subsidies huge
Yep. If you earn less that $3k a year,
1. You pay no income tax
2. You get heavily subsidized groceries (what would cost $30/mo becomes $10/mo)
3. You can buy a heavily subsidized apartment (PMAY-U)
4. Depending on the state, you can get free electricity, water, etc.
5. If you are in a semi-rural area, you can get psudeo-UBI via the MGNREGA program
With all of this, you can end up netting an additional $700-1.2k a year tax free.
Fundamentally, China and Vietnam were able to succeed at pushing people into factory work because these kinds of subsidies didn't exist, forcing people to choose between working at a factory or starve. Also, factories in China and Vietnam would build dormitories, but in India that falls foul of labor laws.
This is why most migrant workers in India are from the state of Bihar - the government in this state has been incompetent at running welfare programs, so rural poverty has not been alleviated.
Yep. If you earn less that $3k a year,
1. You pay no income tax
2. You get heavily subsidized groceries (what would cost $30/mo becomes $10/mo)
3. You can buy a heavily subsidized apartment (PMAY-U)
4. Depending on the state, you can get free electricity, water, etc.
5. If you are in a semi-rural area, you can get psudeo-UBI via the MGNREGA program
With all of this, you can end up netting an additional $700-1.2k a year tax free.
Fundamentally, China and Vietnam were able to succeed at pushing people into factory work because these kinds of subsidies didn't exist, forcing people to choose between working at a factory or starve. Also, factories in China and Vietnam would build dormitories, but in India that falls foul of labor laws.
This is why most migrant workers in India are from the state of Bihar - the government in this state has been incompetent at running welfare programs, so rural poverty has not been alleviated.
>Fundamentally, China and Vietnam were able to succeed at pushing people into factory work because these kinds of subsidies didn't exist, forcing people to choose between working at a factory or starve. Also, factories in China and Vietnam would build dormitories, but in India that falls foul of labor laws.
That's dubious thinking. The hurdles to establishment of a manufacturing base are not labor shortages. The biggest issue in India is the ease of doing business[0] and the bureaucratic red tape. India ranks 136 in 190 countries in starting new businesses, among many other accolades.
[0] https://archive.doingbusiness.org/en/rankings [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24106545
That's dubious thinking. The hurdles to establishment of a manufacturing base are not labor shortages. The biggest issue in India is the ease of doing business[0] and the bureaucratic red tape. India ranks 136 in 190 countries in starting new businesses, among many other accolades.
[0] https://archive.doingbusiness.org/en/rankings [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24106545
> The hurdles to establishment of a manufacturing base are not labor shortages. The biggest issue in India is the ease of doing business[0] and the bureaucratic red tape. India ranks 136 in 190 countries in starting new businesses, among many other accolades
It all comes down to India's Labor Laws and Land Acquisition Laws.
No one actually follows Labor Laws in India, but Enforcement Agencies and local Politicians will use them to extract bribes. You will invariably be breaking some labor law (eg. under Indian Labor Laws, you need to provide a baby room/creche for every woman), and as such you need to pay off the Trade Unions, local ruling Politician, local opposition Politician, the district labor commissioner, the district magistrate, etc.
In India, the laws are used as a way to extract the maximum number of bribes out of you.
This is why Tamil Nadu and Gujarat do so well at manufacturing in India - the politicans in both states are equally corrupt, but the ruling parties (DMK and BJP respectively) run a One-Party State where you only pay them off, and everyone has to listen.
If you pay off your GJ BJP MLA or your TN DMK MLA, you will be free to do whatever you want - similar to how you operate in Guangdong or HCMC.
In a lot of other states in India, corruption is nowhere near as streamlined.
It all comes down to India's Labor Laws and Land Acquisition Laws.
No one actually follows Labor Laws in India, but Enforcement Agencies and local Politicians will use them to extract bribes. You will invariably be breaking some labor law (eg. under Indian Labor Laws, you need to provide a baby room/creche for every woman), and as such you need to pay off the Trade Unions, local ruling Politician, local opposition Politician, the district labor commissioner, the district magistrate, etc.
In India, the laws are used as a way to extract the maximum number of bribes out of you.
This is why Tamil Nadu and Gujarat do so well at manufacturing in India - the politicans in both states are equally corrupt, but the ruling parties (DMK and BJP respectively) run a One-Party State where you only pay them off, and everyone has to listen.
If you pay off your GJ BJP MLA or your TN DMK MLA, you will be free to do whatever you want - similar to how you operate in Guangdong or HCMC.
In a lot of other states in India, corruption is nowhere near as streamlined.
Is India still stuck on the Land Acquisition Act of 1894? Pakistan has been totally unable to make any changes to it, despite/because it allows for so much corruption, graft and control.
Yep.
Narendra Modi has been campaigning on radically reforming the LAA since he became Prime Minister in 2014, but he never got the supermajority needed to safely pass it.
The current 2024 election is basically being fought over this Land Reform Law [0].
The UCC, Ram Mandir, etc stuff is all a distraction from interests fighting for and against this law.
It's a good reform, but Modi isn't fighting for it out of altruism. Easier land acquisition makes it easier to manufacture mass housing under the PMAY-U program, which would basically make Singaporean style HDBs for Indians. Once that is in place, the BJP will win elections for the next 20 years, because they've provided modern housing (and the ability to get rich from graft on the way).
[0] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/land-reforms-included...
Narendra Modi has been campaigning on radically reforming the LAA since he became Prime Minister in 2014, but he never got the supermajority needed to safely pass it.
The current 2024 election is basically being fought over this Land Reform Law [0].
The UCC, Ram Mandir, etc stuff is all a distraction from interests fighting for and against this law.
It's a good reform, but Modi isn't fighting for it out of altruism. Easier land acquisition makes it easier to manufacture mass housing under the PMAY-U program, which would basically make Singaporean style HDBs for Indians. Once that is in place, the BJP will win elections for the next 20 years, because they've provided modern housing (and the ability to get rich from graft on the way).
[0] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/land-reforms-included...
Changing land acquisition would be a huge boon for much more than just housing for the BJP. As you say this opens up a lot more opportunities to get rich from graft for a lot of non-housing purposes as well.
Yep! I mentioned housing specifically because PMAY-U and PMAY-G was supposed to be Modi's crowing achievement (also the easiest way to pull off graft en masse), along with UBI [0].
Food security, Housing, and UBI are the three holy grails - whichever party successfully delivers on all 3 becomes invincible for a generation, and why the BJP has been doing what it's doing.
[0] - https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/02/04/i...
Food security, Housing, and UBI are the three holy grails - whichever party successfully delivers on all 3 becomes invincible for a generation, and why the BJP has been doing what it's doing.
[0] - https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2017/02/04/i...
This government's track record of passing radical reforms has been pretty poor (the Farm bills, labour reforms, GST implementation) so I am not holding my breath. It is not the supermajority that was hindering the Farm bills either - their main issue has been the lack of advance outreach to the relevant sections of society. There is no way you are going to simply pass laws like that in India without first priming the farmers / labour unions etc. first, even at acute tax payer expense. If they learnt from their mistakes then we can hope for something but their modus operandi has been to completely ignore any opposition to their policies so I will not hold my breath.
No, it's not that simple. Some of the regulatory capture that exists in India is layered on by existing companies like Tata and Maruti. These companies and existing relationships make it difficult for new entrants but wouldn't make it hard for existing firms to build and staff factories as they have been doing.
EV Car Laws are a classic example of this.
The only major EV Car manufacturer in India is Tata Motors. They lobbied the Indian government to set EV Car GST at 5% instead of 50% like it is for other cars.
When Toyota India (and it's partners Maruti Suzuki and Hyundai India) started considering manufacturing Hybrids [0], Tata went on a lobbying blitz to prevent Plug-in Hybrids from getting similar tax treatment as EVs [1].
The Indian government ended up siding with Toyota [2]
Oh, btw. This entire story only happened in the past 3 months.
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
[1] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tata-m...
[2] - https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/cars/nitin-gadkari-bats...
The only major EV Car manufacturer in India is Tata Motors. They lobbied the Indian government to set EV Car GST at 5% instead of 50% like it is for other cars.
When Toyota India (and it's partners Maruti Suzuki and Hyundai India) started considering manufacturing Hybrids [0], Tata went on a lobbying blitz to prevent Plug-in Hybrids from getting similar tax treatment as EVs [1].
The Indian government ended up siding with Toyota [2]
Oh, btw. This entire story only happened in the past 3 months.
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
[1] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tata-m...
[2] - https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/cars/nitin-gadkari-bats...
Yes I'm aware sadly. Have a friend of a friend involved in the 3 wheeler EV business in India. Not going to drop names because it's a small world.
Oof. Best of luck to them. I'm curious how they differentiate themselves from the Jugaad three-wheeler manufacturers. That seems to be where a lot of the demand and growth has been from what I've seen.
India will never be a manufacturing hub because of the absurdly high land costs. India is simply uncompetitive because land acquisition eats up into your budget.
The moment any large manufacturing facility is cleared through the red tape, speculators buy up all the land in the vicinity, making the entire supply chain more expensive.
You can work on red tape and ease of doing business, but the simple reason why Indian small and medium manufacturing units never graduate to large scale is because they simply can’t acquire the land to grow.
The moment any large manufacturing facility is cleared through the red tape, speculators buy up all the land in the vicinity, making the entire supply chain more expensive.
You can work on red tape and ease of doing business, but the simple reason why Indian small and medium manufacturing units never graduate to large scale is because they simply can’t acquire the land to grow.
Hence why Modi is fighting to get a supermajority in the Lok Sabha [0].
A 362+ seat range in the LS is enough to push through the LARR repeal without being negatively impacted by defections.
[0] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/land-reforms-included...
A 362+ seat range in the LS is enough to push through the LARR repeal without being negatively impacted by defections.
[0] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/land-reforms-included...
I’d say an ever bigger roadblock is societal balkanization and resulting incoherent corruption and law enforcement.
It’s not uncommon for lawsuits in India to get ‘stuck’ for decades or longer, while squatters do their thing to property without involvement from police, and the mob (as in groups of angry people) just does what it wants with no effective penalties or accountability.
India was formed by non-consensually welding together 200+ long term distinct religio-ethno-socio states, and pretending they are all one country.
In China, and to a lesser extent Vietnam, it’s a different dynamic.
If the communist party likes you, you can do whatever you want and quickly. If they don’t, good luck surviving at all. And the ethnic groups are limited and small minorities. So there is a coherent majority whose interests can be known and that can be appeased.
So if you’re in the good graces there, it’s speedy, efficient, and profitable.
India, there is no one group effectively in charge (at least anymore), and you’re constantly dealing with having to pay off or work around yet another different group that somehow was able to get themselves in a position they could force you to pay them. Often dozens in any one area.
And because the ‘Indian’ identity is relatively weak compared to their more specific ethnic/caste identity, it’s much harder to override for the ‘greater good’.
It’s not uncommon for lawsuits in India to get ‘stuck’ for decades or longer, while squatters do their thing to property without involvement from police, and the mob (as in groups of angry people) just does what it wants with no effective penalties or accountability.
India was formed by non-consensually welding together 200+ long term distinct religio-ethno-socio states, and pretending they are all one country.
In China, and to a lesser extent Vietnam, it’s a different dynamic.
If the communist party likes you, you can do whatever you want and quickly. If they don’t, good luck surviving at all. And the ethnic groups are limited and small minorities. So there is a coherent majority whose interests can be known and that can be appeased.
So if you’re in the good graces there, it’s speedy, efficient, and profitable.
India, there is no one group effectively in charge (at least anymore), and you’re constantly dealing with having to pay off or work around yet another different group that somehow was able to get themselves in a position they could force you to pay them. Often dozens in any one area.
And because the ‘Indian’ identity is relatively weak compared to their more specific ethnic/caste identity, it’s much harder to override for the ‘greater good’.
This is a very orientalist view of India.
Most states in India have a single party ruling, and it's fairly easy to understand who to be chummy with, and how to operate a JV.
The issue is swing states have competing political poles internally, which slows down the ability to operate as you need to deal with 2x the overhead.
Even in China and Vietnam you have a similar mentality, but the difference is it's all part of a single party.
Furthermore, at least in VN's case, you have the exact same problems as India if not worse. The main difference is most factories in VN end up getting built in the Red River Delta region (Hanoi-Haiphong), so there is a strong network effect.
Once you go to other cities in Vietnam (eg. Pleiku, Can Tho) you lack the kind of administration that has experience dealing with foreign investors and businesses, forcing you to have to make JVs.
India is basically a country with 26 Vietnams - some of those states have fairly decent institutional capacity, others less so.
Most states in India have a single party ruling, and it's fairly easy to understand who to be chummy with, and how to operate a JV.
The issue is swing states have competing political poles internally, which slows down the ability to operate as you need to deal with 2x the overhead.
Even in China and Vietnam you have a similar mentality, but the difference is it's all part of a single party.
Furthermore, at least in VN's case, you have the exact same problems as India if not worse. The main difference is most factories in VN end up getting built in the Red River Delta region (Hanoi-Haiphong), so there is a strong network effect.
Once you go to other cities in Vietnam (eg. Pleiku, Can Tho) you lack the kind of administration that has experience dealing with foreign investors and businesses, forcing you to have to make JVs.
India is basically a country with 26 Vietnams - some of those states have fairly decent institutional capacity, others less so.
I can’t tell if you’re agreeing with me, insulting me, or some combination of the above.
I will say, it’s a lot more than 26 Vietnams in India though, since most decent sized Cities have their own nested level of Chaos going on that likes to ignore the larger state infrastructure and is highly resistant to outside intervention. At least in most areas I’ve seen.
And that is also ignoring the Muslim/hindu/jain/sikh/etc. friction going on within each area too. And the occasional random bombings, mob ‘interactions’, etc.
Money does talk though.
I’ll also say, I’ve never been called an orientalist before - that’s cool. I guess?
I will say, it’s a lot more than 26 Vietnams in India though, since most decent sized Cities have their own nested level of Chaos going on that likes to ignore the larger state infrastructure and is highly resistant to outside intervention. At least in most areas I’ve seen.
And that is also ignoring the Muslim/hindu/jain/sikh/etc. friction going on within each area too. And the occasional random bombings, mob ‘interactions’, etc.
Money does talk though.
I’ll also say, I’ve never been called an orientalist before - that’s cool. I guess?
I think this paints an overly rosy picture of welfare programs. It reads like what a rich person would imagine how poor people think.
Taxes in India are computed in "slabs" of different rates. I believe everyone in India are allowed to exclude $3.5K from their annual income for computing their tax obligation. Of course, those making less that $3.5K do not pay any taxes. But those making over $3.5K do not pay any taxes for the first $3.5K of their annual income. So, there is no incentive to earn less as OP seems to suggest.
Taxes in India are computed in "slabs" of different rates. I believe everyone in India are allowed to exclude $3.5K from their annual income for computing their tax obligation. Of course, those making less that $3.5K do not pay any taxes. But those making over $3.5K do not pay any taxes for the first $3.5K of their annual income. So, there is no incentive to earn less as OP seems to suggest.
> overly rosy picture of welfare programs
I agree (I couldn't edit it by the time the limit ended)!
The bigger issue is factory work is unappealing because working 10-12 hours a day under the table earning $250-300/mo doesn't make sense for most people.
Rural and lower class life does suck (heck my dad grew up in a jhuggi), but earning money for yourself is better than being at the mercy of a factory owner who can and often holds back your salary and doesn't provide housing.
That's a major differentiator between Chinese and Indian style factories - Chinese factories provide dormitories but Indian ones can't due to some regulatory issues.
Furthermore, most well paying factories aren't established in smaller towns or non-tier 1 metros, and the kind of demographic who would be open to working at a factory doesn't want to leave their hometown to take a massive risk living as a migrant worker in Chennai or Noida.
And that's why you see the boom in e-rickshaws in Tier 3/4 metros and small towns - it's an easy way to start your own business that's paying somewhat decently, and in most states welfare disbursement is "good enough" (as in better than 5 years ago).
That said, this is a localized maxima, and major reforms are needed, because this kind of an unorganized industry is going to eventually crash due to oversaturation.
I agree (I couldn't edit it by the time the limit ended)!
The bigger issue is factory work is unappealing because working 10-12 hours a day under the table earning $250-300/mo doesn't make sense for most people.
Rural and lower class life does suck (heck my dad grew up in a jhuggi), but earning money for yourself is better than being at the mercy of a factory owner who can and often holds back your salary and doesn't provide housing.
That's a major differentiator between Chinese and Indian style factories - Chinese factories provide dormitories but Indian ones can't due to some regulatory issues.
Furthermore, most well paying factories aren't established in smaller towns or non-tier 1 metros, and the kind of demographic who would be open to working at a factory doesn't want to leave their hometown to take a massive risk living as a migrant worker in Chennai or Noida.
And that's why you see the boom in e-rickshaws in Tier 3/4 metros and small towns - it's an easy way to start your own business that's paying somewhat decently, and in most states welfare disbursement is "good enough" (as in better than 5 years ago).
That said, this is a localized maxima, and major reforms are needed, because this kind of an unorganized industry is going to eventually crash due to oversaturation.
I mean, is the stuff they get in utility stores of acceptable quality? Pakistan got rid of them at federal level (like PDS) in the 80s after the Americans or IMF complained I think but there was a lot of hoarding and backroom dealing going on. I think certain provinces still have them.
> stuff they get in utility stores of acceptable quality
Depends on which scheme/welfare program you're using.
The ones managed by the Federal/Central Government have better QAing and because of Aadhar it's much harder to do shenanigans and steal en masse. The brands provided are also available at your local Indian grocery store [0].
State Level schemes tend to be of varying quality. Some states (eg. Himachal, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Kerala) are able to maintain a high quality, but other states (eg. Bihar, West Bengal, Madhya Pradesh) are unable to properly execute.
The Pakistani PDS collapsed because the hoarding and backroom dealing you mentioned. It fundamentally wasn't a bad program, it just lacked the institutional infrastructure needed to prevent corruption and lossage. The same thing happened in India until Digital Public Infrastructure (DPI) like Aadhar was rolled out. With Aadhar, UPI, etc, it's easier to detect anomalous disbursements and thus root out corruption, as you have an audit trail.
Federal Schemes in India all require Aadhar/Biometric Validation. State Level Schemes don't require biometric validation, and as such can (and have) been abused.
[0] - https://www.nafedbazaar.com/
Depends on which scheme/welfare program you're using.
The ones managed by the Federal/Central Government have better QAing and because of Aadhar it's much harder to do shenanigans and steal en masse. The brands provided are also available at your local Indian grocery store [0].
State Level schemes tend to be of varying quality. Some states (eg. Himachal, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Kerala) are able to maintain a high quality, but other states (eg. Bihar, West Bengal, Madhya Pradesh) are unable to properly execute.
The Pakistani PDS collapsed because the hoarding and backroom dealing you mentioned. It fundamentally wasn't a bad program, it just lacked the institutional infrastructure needed to prevent corruption and lossage. The same thing happened in India until Digital Public Infrastructure (DPI) like Aadhar was rolled out. With Aadhar, UPI, etc, it's easier to detect anomalous disbursements and thus root out corruption, as you have an audit trail.
Federal Schemes in India all require Aadhar/Biometric Validation. State Level Schemes don't require biometric validation, and as such can (and have) been abused.
[0] - https://www.nafedbazaar.com/
I hear that “the future is hybrid” talking point a lot lately and I think that means Toyota is successfully controlling the narrative, but that’s not the “future”, it’s the present. Hybrids just don’t benefit enough from Wright’s law to stay cost-competitive for long. Charging infrastructure will catch up, because charging infrastructure is cheap
This is a conversation about India, not the US.
The market and business environment in India is entirely different from the US.
Charging infra will eventually get built in India, but it will take 4-7 years at least.
At that point it makes sense to save a bit more money to buy a $12k Toyota or Maruti Suzuki hybrid instead of spending $9k on a Tata EV.
The Toyota and Maruti Hybrid will have a longer range, and you don't need to worry about running out of battery in a random town in the middle of nowhere in India - a country where the law and order situation is not great.
The market and business environment in India is entirely different from the US.
Charging infra will eventually get built in India, but it will take 4-7 years at least.
At that point it makes sense to save a bit more money to buy a $12k Toyota or Maruti Suzuki hybrid instead of spending $9k on a Tata EV.
The Toyota and Maruti Hybrid will have a longer range, and you don't need to worry about running out of battery in a random town in the middle of nowhere in India - a country where the law and order situation is not great.
What is the price of electricity vs petrol for vehicules in India?
okay but what about $6k on an EV. There’s a point where you have to say, okay, I’ll figure out charging
The cheapest EV is the BYD Seagull at $9,700 [0], so roughly the same price as the Tata Tiago EV after tax.
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas...
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chinas...
for now
For anyone who doesn't ride motorcycles - a KTM Super Duke is a lunatic hooligan bike (in the best way) that barely fits within the boundaries of safe operation on the open roads of the USA. I cannot comprehend riding one on the busy streets of an Indian city. It'd be fun while it lasted, at least.
Riding anything in India is an extreme sport. That country is absolute madness.
Try crossing the road as a pedestrian in Bangalore. It's even more of an extreme sport.
One of my favorite memories was getting across the street to a restaurant with some noobs in front of one of the FAANG offices in Bangalore - high traffic times, so no way to do so on foot without a noob ending up dead.
An auto rickshaw, 15 minutes, and two different bribes to the traffic police did the trick though.
An auto rickshaw, 15 minutes, and two different bribes to the traffic police did the trick though.
Were the bribes needed because the rick was overloaded, or because the rick went the wrong way, or both?
It was the only way to do the turns necessary to get there in 15 minutes due to heavy traffic. The traffic police were blocking them.
I was visiting our office in Delhi, (Gurgaon), And the only way to get lunch was to cross a busy highway with no pedestrian bridges, experiencing what I can only describe as a deadly vortex of entropy.
I think I can add that to my list of near death experiences for sure.
I think I can add that to my list of near death experiences for sure.
[deleted]
Welcome to India. Youth culture in India is obsessed with the KTM Super Duke [0]. It's the stereotypical chappri/pulingo bike (Indian version of Bad Baby type influencers).
[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T08LibsaHh0
[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T08LibsaHh0
2 Wheeler EV penetration is increasing in India. "2W EVs form the majority of EV sales today, accounting for 85%–90% of all EV units sold in India, followed by 4W EVs (7%–9% of sales) and 3W EVs (5%–7% of sales)." Source: https://www.bain.com/insights/india-electric-vehicle-report-....
EVs have crossed the 6% threshold of volume of all vehicles sold in India.
India's EV migration will start from 2 wheeler and 3 wheeler EVs. Public transport is already migrating to EV based. City buses have already migrated to EVs in cities like Pune and other cities are catching up.
Cars and long distance transport trucks will be last. You can read up on the EV statistics here - https://www.autocarpro.in/analysis-sales/over-34-million-evs...
EVs have crossed the 6% threshold of volume of all vehicles sold in India.
India's EV migration will start from 2 wheeler and 3 wheeler EVs. Public transport is already migrating to EV based. City buses have already migrated to EVs in cities like Pune and other cities are catching up.
Cars and long distance transport trucks will be last. You can read up on the EV statistics here - https://www.autocarpro.in/analysis-sales/over-34-million-evs...
I've never been to India, but I have seen (and heard, and smelled) the multitude of two-stroke-engine-powered vehicles in Southern European cities, so I can imagine having them replaced by electric versions would be a blessing...
> the multitude of two-stroke-engine-powered vehicles in Southern European cities, so I can imagine having them replaced by electric versions
In India, the 4-stroke came in big right around the time when leaded fuel got banned. The anti-knock stuff only really worked properly on a 4-stroke, so you'll notice that it took somewhere between 2000 and 2005 to really kill the new vehicle market for 2S.
However, the sound, that is what is completely different about these - you can actually talk on your phone sitting in the electric versions, while the petrol ones need you to shout over it when it goes up a hill.
The most interesting intersection for me was the mobile app and the EV charger combo the drivers use.
In my last visit to Kerala there were plug points under some street lights which could charge these 3-wheelers at 240v at 15amps off the pole.
These guys would just be parked right under one of those, with their mobile apps open & they'll unplug only once they get a pickup location, keeping their batteries perpetually topped up when idle.
In India, the 4-stroke came in big right around the time when leaded fuel got banned. The anti-knock stuff only really worked properly on a 4-stroke, so you'll notice that it took somewhere between 2000 and 2005 to really kill the new vehicle market for 2S.
However, the sound, that is what is completely different about these - you can actually talk on your phone sitting in the electric versions, while the petrol ones need you to shout over it when it goes up a hill.
The most interesting intersection for me was the mobile app and the EV charger combo the drivers use.
In my last visit to Kerala there were plug points under some street lights which could charge these 3-wheelers at 240v at 15amps off the pole.
These guys would just be parked right under one of those, with their mobile apps open & they'll unplug only once they get a pickup location, keeping their batteries perpetually topped up when idle.
Strange... even Vespa (which is by no means a cheap scooter) had a two-stroke engine in its base model until 2017, according to https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespa_Primavera (German version, the English one has less details). Of course, if it's not commonly available at gas stations, preparing the gasoline/oil mixture for a two-stroke engine becomes a bit of a hassle...
California long ago banned 2 cycle golf carts. I used to until recently owned one. If you said they were a 100 times more polluting than a car with a catalytic converter I'd believe it. For a developing country better air quality, less noise and not needing to import oil seem like a win win win.
It's just the start prices for batteries and evs will keep coming down. So will the electricity prices as solar prices are also falling. The space is moving too fast to hold any concrete opinions economics says electric will price out ice in the next 1p years for a lot of transport
This is a Western point of view.
Already from a financial standpoint, an EV is much cheaper than a Gas Car in India (an entry level Tata EV costs $9-10k after tax, and an entry level ICE Maruti Suzuki costs around $9-11k after tax), but everyone is holding out on buying one until the charging infrastructure is actually built.
The charging network in India just doesn't exist. At most there might be 2 charging ports at a gas station, and oftentimes the station attendants just don't maintain them leading to broken chargers.
Infra enhancement is happening, but it will take 4-7 years to happen.
This is why Hybrids are becoming popular - the taxes on them got dropped to the same amount as an EV, and you won't face range anxiety as you can switch back to gas.
Already from a financial standpoint, an EV is much cheaper than a Gas Car in India (an entry level Tata EV costs $9-10k after tax, and an entry level ICE Maruti Suzuki costs around $9-11k after tax), but everyone is holding out on buying one until the charging infrastructure is actually built.
The charging network in India just doesn't exist. At most there might be 2 charging ports at a gas station, and oftentimes the station attendants just don't maintain them leading to broken chargers.
Infra enhancement is happening, but it will take 4-7 years to happen.
This is why Hybrids are becoming popular - the taxes on them got dropped to the same amount as an EV, and you won't face range anxiety as you can switch back to gas.
> The charging network in India just doesn't exist.
Would battery swapping be a viable alternative? Obviously not swapping random batteries; but those made and mainatined by the manufacturer.
Would battery swapping be a viable alternative? Obviously not swapping random batteries; but those made and mainatined by the manufacturer.
Most likely not.
Cars are the future. People prefer cars. They just can't afford them.
People drive auto-rickshaws and e-rickshaws because it's both a mode of transport AND a self run business.
The Indian gov and private sector players like Reliance, Tata, etc are investing in building an e-charging network, but it will take 4-7 years.
Cars are the future. People prefer cars. They just can't afford them.
People drive auto-rickshaws and e-rickshaws because it's both a mode of transport AND a self run business.
The Indian gov and private sector players like Reliance, Tata, etc are investing in building an e-charging network, but it will take 4-7 years.
> Cars are the future. People prefer cars. They just can't afford them.
You just answered your own question: most people can't afford cars. And even if they could afford a car, where would you park them?
You just answered your own question: most people can't afford cars. And even if they could afford a car, where would you park them?
> most people can't afford cars
And it's changing rapidly. Financing is much easier and salaries have grown significantly.
30 years ago, your only choices for a car were a Maruti Suzuki 800 or an Ambassador.
20 years ago car financing started in India, and multiple private sector car manufacturers like Hyundai, Toyota, Renault, etc entered the market.
And over the past 15 years car ownership has grown from around 90 million cars to 330 million cars.
As India grows richer, people buy cars.
> where would you park them
Congested street parking. Most Indian cities have some amount of space. They aren't all tiny alleys that can barely fit people
Look. India and developing countries aren't Western Europe.
A 2 wheeler or 3 wheeler isn't seen as prestigious - a car is the aspirational image of the middle class. Doesn't matter if it's India, Vietnam, or Indonesia - this is the mentality.
What's with the gora poverty backchodi.
And it's changing rapidly. Financing is much easier and salaries have grown significantly.
30 years ago, your only choices for a car were a Maruti Suzuki 800 or an Ambassador.
20 years ago car financing started in India, and multiple private sector car manufacturers like Hyundai, Toyota, Renault, etc entered the market.
And over the past 15 years car ownership has grown from around 90 million cars to 330 million cars.
As India grows richer, people buy cars.
> where would you park them
Congested street parking. Most Indian cities have some amount of space. They aren't all tiny alleys that can barely fit people
Look. India and developing countries aren't Western Europe.
A 2 wheeler or 3 wheeler isn't seen as prestigious - a car is the aspirational image of the middle class. Doesn't matter if it's India, Vietnam, or Indonesia - this is the mentality.
What's with the gora poverty backchodi.
> 30 years ago, your only choices for a car were a Maruti Suzuki 800 or an Ambassador.
Don't forget the Fiat!!
I grew up in an India where even phones were a luxury, so I do have some background. I live in a medium-sized (Tier-2) city. There is absolutely no place to park cars. People park on busy roads and just walk away, making traffic much worse.
> What's with the gora poverty backchodi.
Maybe ask your dad? He would be about my age.
Don't forget the Fiat!!
I grew up in an India where even phones were a luxury, so I do have some background. I live in a medium-sized (Tier-2) city. There is absolutely no place to park cars. People park on busy roads and just walk away, making traffic much worse.
> What's with the gora poverty backchodi.
Maybe ask your dad? He would be about my age.
Fast search days that Tata Tiago which is in that price range can charge at 18kW, still charging at 3kW-7kW should be doable and enough at most destinations.
> At most there might be 2 charging ports at a gas station
Unless these gas stations are also 30+ minute shopping/eating destinations, the chargers ought to be places that are.
Unless these gas stations are also 30+ minute shopping/eating destinations, the chargers ought to be places that are.
Indian urban areas are built a lot denser than the US. 30+ minutes of driving between shopping/eating destinations isn't a concern for customers in the 3 wheeler market.
Have you seen Delhi traffic?
Sure, I mean that 30+ miles of driving is not a range issue. You're spending a lot of that time stuck in traffic which in an EV 3-wheeler just means you're sipping charge.
When I said 30+ (assuming you're still using that figure in reference to my comment; if not please ignore me) I wasn't talking about distance between places, I was talking about time spent at places.
[deleted]
> Unless these gas stations are also 30+ minute shopping/eating destinations
They ain't
> the chargers ought to be places that are
Some are, but the maintenance issue comes up again.
They ain't
> the chargers ought to be places that are
Some are, but the maintenance issue comes up again.
> $250-300/mo but 5% income tax and not eligible for subsidies
300 USD per month means ₹3,00,000 per year; remember then to take into account the Section 87A rebate, which amounts to you paying no tax if your total income is less than ₹7,00,000 (5 lakh in previous years).
300 USD per month means ₹3,00,000 per year; remember then to take into account the Section 87A rebate, which amounts to you paying no tax if your total income is less than ₹7,00,000 (5 lakh in previous years).
Under the new tax regime, individual income up to ₹750,000 is tax free due to a combination of standard deduction and 87A.
Given that many small businesses often accept UPI payments in multiple names (husband, wife, mother etc), a small family can actually manage ₹1,500,000-3,000,000 in (legitimate) tax free income.
That is about $18-36,000.
Which is a lot in India.
Given that many small businesses often accept UPI payments in multiple names (husband, wife, mother etc), a small family can actually manage ₹1,500,000-3,000,000 in (legitimate) tax free income.
That is about $18-36,000.
Which is a lot in India.
[deleted]
2 wheelers do have their place and are well positioned imo. they have easy-to-remove batteries that counter reliance on charging infrastructure. this with enough range for an average middle class commuter in small to large towns.
the last mile transport rental market was quite ripe to complement the gig economy guys pre-pandemic but i wonder if it will recover for regular commuters in major cities to the same level.
the last mile transport rental market was quite ripe to complement the gig economy guys pre-pandemic but i wonder if it will recover for regular commuters in major cities to the same level.
I've noticed petrol autos marketing themselves as not CNG/LPG as an advantage, what's that about - refuelling time should it be needed? Or safety? Just curious where EVs sit in that regard because I don't remember noticing any the couple of times I've been to Delhi, and AIUI they'd have been the previous environmental step forward.
I was just there last year and they’ve started to pop up, but only really as company-provided cars (Blu I think?)
Probably so the auto drivers don't get their skull cracked by a tire iron.
Auto Rickshaw unions are VERY politically powerful. One former member has become Chief Minister (Eknath Shinde) and have played a major role in swinging elections in Delhi (INC to AAP), Karnataka (BJP to INC), and Telangana (BRS to INC).
E-Rickshaws are excluded from these unions, as most e-rickshaw drivers tend to be migrant workers from poorer areas like Bihar or Eastern UP while Auto Rickshaw drivers tend to be locals of the state.
By advertising as being petrol, that means they are part of the Auto Rickshaw unions, so you as an e-rickshaw driver or police officer know not to mess with them.
Auto Rickshaw unions are VERY politically powerful. One former member has become Chief Minister (Eknath Shinde) and have played a major role in swinging elections in Delhi (INC to AAP), Karnataka (BJP to INC), and Telangana (BRS to INC).
E-Rickshaws are excluded from these unions, as most e-rickshaw drivers tend to be migrant workers from poorer areas like Bihar or Eastern UP while Auto Rickshaw drivers tend to be locals of the state.
By advertising as being petrol, that means they are part of the Auto Rickshaw unions, so you as an e-rickshaw driver or police officer know not to mess with them.
[deleted]
> No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more and buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke
2 wheeler EV is not a rare sight in Bangalore. Probably 1 in 200 two wheelers is EV in my neighborhood.
2 wheeler EV is not a rare sight in Bangalore. Probably 1 in 200 two wheelers is EV in my neighborhood.
Bangalore =/= India.
Most of Bangalore's case is because of Ola subsidizing it's drivers to buy an Ola Bike [0][1].
For people who don't know, Ola is India's indigenous Uber+Doordash competitor.
If you're price sensitive, you can always buy a used Hero Honda for around $500-1k, so cheaper than a 2 wheeler EV. If you aren't price conscious, you can buy a luxury bike like a KTM or a car.
[0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/electric-two...
[1] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike...
Most of Bangalore's case is because of Ola subsidizing it's drivers to buy an Ola Bike [0][1].
For people who don't know, Ola is India's indigenous Uber+Doordash competitor.
If you're price sensitive, you can always buy a used Hero Honda for around $500-1k, so cheaper than a 2 wheeler EV. If you aren't price conscious, you can buy a luxury bike like a KTM or a car.
[0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/electric-two...
[1] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike...
I recently had to look up what constitutes "common" vs. "rare" and I found the typical threshold to be 5%. You're only at 10% of that so I'd call it very rare.
You don't mean the Duke? The Super Duke is 21k USD, surely the cheap electric motorbikes are coming in below that.
I highly doubt your claims.
"Ola subsidizes that's why people are buying 2wheelers"
That's whats happened in USA, EU, China or anywhere else for that matter.
"No ev charging stations"
Reliance already got into the charging station business and most importantly there are startups convincing third-parties to turn their homes into charging stations which I believe is the right solution
"Ola subsidizes that's why people are buying 2wheelers"
That's whats happened in USA, EU, China or anywhere else for that matter.
"No ev charging stations"
Reliance already got into the charging station business and most importantly there are startups convincing third-parties to turn their homes into charging stations which I believe is the right solution
> That's whats happened in USA, EU, China or anywhere else for that matter
Ola has explicitly stated that they will make Ola drivers start using Ola Electric e-bikes [0], and the overwhelming majority of 2 wheeler EV sales are Ola Electric bikes.
> Reliance already got into the charging station business and most importantly there are startups convincing third-parties to turn their homes into charging stations which I believe is the right solution
Most of the Jio gas stations (like the ones in my ancestral village) only add 1 or at most 2 charging stations for EV cars, and Reliance corporate doesn't provide maintenance support.
Those same startups trying to convince people make homes into charging stations simply won't succeed outside of urban areas because of the trust deficit that exists.
The future of the Indian EV sector is in Tier 3-4 metros and small towns. That is where the majority of Indian urbanization is happening, and even where most of the sale for e-rickshaws are happening.
Charging stations will eventually get built, but it's a 4-7 year process.
[0] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike...
[1] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-to-deploy-two-wheeler-evs
Ola has explicitly stated that they will make Ola drivers start using Ola Electric e-bikes [0], and the overwhelming majority of 2 wheeler EV sales are Ola Electric bikes.
> Reliance already got into the charging station business and most importantly there are startups convincing third-parties to turn their homes into charging stations which I believe is the right solution
Most of the Jio gas stations (like the ones in my ancestral village) only add 1 or at most 2 charging stations for EV cars, and Reliance corporate doesn't provide maintenance support.
Those same startups trying to convince people make homes into charging stations simply won't succeed outside of urban areas because of the trust deficit that exists.
The future of the Indian EV sector is in Tier 3-4 metros and small towns. That is where the majority of Indian urbanization is happening, and even where most of the sale for e-rickshaws are happening.
Charging stations will eventually get built, but it's a 4-7 year process.
[0] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-wheelers-bike...
[1] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-to-deploy-two-wheeler-evs
When there is an opportunity to make money people would not waste it. Just like in the old days people ran 1 or 2 telephone stations they will run charging stations everywhere in the near future. It's easy money to be made
The issue imo is maintenance.
The 3rd party chargers (eg. at the Jio gas stations or at that dhaba on the NH) tend to have varying levels of maintenance, as these are franchisees and installed them as way to get some free money from corporate (eg. the one in my family's ancestral village in HP - they installed it to get some free cash from Reliance, but they aren't providing any maintenance).
That said, the EV chargers at the dealerships are well maintained.
This is the same issue in the US with Tesla's Supercharger network being superior to Electrify America because the former is directly owned and managed by Tesla, whereas the latter is a franchisee model. Whenever a Tesla Supercharger goes down, Tesla will send a mechanic to fix it. Whenever an Electrify America charger goes down, it takes weeks to get repaired.
A dealership driven charging network would probably solve the issues in India, as just about every small town has 4-5 different dealerships located on major highways and roads, and it would have better QC from corporate (as well as the fact that dealerships need to maintain their own charging infra in order to sell the car).
The 3rd party chargers (eg. at the Jio gas stations or at that dhaba on the NH) tend to have varying levels of maintenance, as these are franchisees and installed them as way to get some free money from corporate (eg. the one in my family's ancestral village in HP - they installed it to get some free cash from Reliance, but they aren't providing any maintenance).
That said, the EV chargers at the dealerships are well maintained.
This is the same issue in the US with Tesla's Supercharger network being superior to Electrify America because the former is directly owned and managed by Tesla, whereas the latter is a franchisee model. Whenever a Tesla Supercharger goes down, Tesla will send a mechanic to fix it. Whenever an Electrify America charger goes down, it takes weeks to get repaired.
A dealership driven charging network would probably solve the issues in India, as just about every small town has 4-5 different dealerships located on major highways and roads, and it would have better QC from corporate (as well as the fact that dealerships need to maintain their own charging infra in order to sell the car).
> no one trusts EV charging infra in India
Sodium batteries is going to be a boom for India. 2x cheaper (albeit heavier), charges in 5-15 minutes.
Sodium batteries is going to be a boom for India. 2x cheaper (albeit heavier), charges in 5-15 minutes.
That's why Toyota and Idemetsu Kosan announced that they should be mass producing Solid State Batteries ny 2027 at Narendra Modi's Vibrant Gujarat conference earlier this year [0] (also as a way to lobby their way into getting tax exemptions on Hybrid PEVs)
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
Solid state batteries are something different. Both Lithium and Sodium can be used for them - Lithium has better density, but again Sodium is cheaper. Sodium ones are still being researched, but eventually can be 2-3x energy denser than current Lithium Ion.
An interesting article, though a couple of trivial points bugged me. I suppose it’s due to the death of editors.
> a partnership between Kakkar and his partner Sanjeev Pahwa’s cycle-rickshaw company and a traditional tuk-tuk manufacturer.
I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India — I believe it’s a Thai word used in some other countries. Of course the rickshaw and, cycle rickshaw and auto-rickshaw were all imports via the British. But the term jumped out while reading the sentence.
> the natural magnet for the motor and critical minerals for the battery, have to come from China because they do not naturally occur in India
While it’s unsurprising that the (likely rare earth — India has iron) magnet et al have to be imported, it’s not like rare earths are rare, and a country the size of India and with its geography could find them, and eventually will (as the article says they are with lithium).
> a partnership between Kakkar and his partner Sanjeev Pahwa’s cycle-rickshaw company and a traditional tuk-tuk manufacturer.
I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India — I believe it’s a Thai word used in some other countries. Of course the rickshaw and, cycle rickshaw and auto-rickshaw were all imports via the British. But the term jumped out while reading the sentence.
> the natural magnet for the motor and critical minerals for the battery, have to come from China because they do not naturally occur in India
While it’s unsurprising that the (likely rare earth — India has iron) magnet et al have to be imported, it’s not like rare earths are rare, and a country the size of India and with its geography could find them, and eventually will (as the article says they are with lithium).
Hi there, I was one of the editors on this piece, and I am an Indian so I completely understand your remark on the use of the word tuk-tuk. But there's a reason we used it in just one place in the story — RestofWorld has a global audience and in many parts of the world our readers don't really understand what a "rickshaw" or "3-wheeler" is. So we made this choice for their benefit. Hope that provides you some context... and, well, also... I am alive :)
Any company that makes a classic looking tuk-tuk, but electric?
OP likely missed typing the 'r' -- or was the victim of autocorrect :)
Nice to see some more "mainstream" tech journalists popping into HN! I enjoyed the article btw.
(By mainstream I mean pertaining to less niche topics, e.g. articles about market penetration of alternative form factor EVs, vs. "the new version of eslint is now stable")
(By mainstream I mean pertaining to less niche topics, e.g. articles about market penetration of alternative form factor EVs, vs. "the new version of eslint is now stable")
Thanks, mostly these days of course the writer has to also be their own editor :-(.
BTW my bit about mining and India's geography: it's not just that the subcontinent is large, and mining is a statistics game, but because it has (I don't know the official term) "collision" mountains (like California's Sierras and not like the Appalachian range that crosses north america and Europe) there are lots of opportunities for underground minerals to be brought to the surface. I expect India will be a resource exporter like Australia and Russia within the next 50 years.
BTW my bit about mining and India's geography: it's not just that the subcontinent is large, and mining is a statistics game, but because it has (I don't know the official term) "collision" mountains (like California's Sierras and not like the Appalachian range that crosses north america and Europe) there are lots of opportunities for underground minerals to be brought to the surface. I expect India will be a resource exporter like Australia and Russia within the next 50 years.
I have family in the north-east and I've heard them use the term tuk-tuk before. They'll also use the term auto-rickshaw for the ICE ones.
>I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India — I believe it’s a Thai word used in some other countries. Of course the rickshaw and, cycle rickshaw and auto-rickshaw were all imports via the British.
I have heard the term tuk-tuk used in India, but only sparingly and only in the last few years, mainly by foreign tourists.
Before that and even now, the common terms used were / are rickshaw / riksha, auto-rickshaw and just plain auto; auto is the one used most commonly by Indians (probably because a lot of us use C; just kidding, ha ha, the percentage of devs to the total population is a drop in the bucket.
I've also heard the term tuk-tuk used a good amount in digital nomad videos, particularly about southeast Asia, so you're probably right, gumby, about it being a Thai-origin term.
I have heard the term tuk-tuk used in India, but only sparingly and only in the last few years, mainly by foreign tourists.
Before that and even now, the common terms used were / are rickshaw / riksha, auto-rickshaw and just plain auto; auto is the one used most commonly by Indians (probably because a lot of us use C; just kidding, ha ha, the percentage of devs to the total population is a drop in the bucket.
I've also heard the term tuk-tuk used a good amount in digital nomad videos, particularly about southeast Asia, so you're probably right, gumby, about it being a Thai-origin term.
> I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India
Articles written to be read by audiences not the subject. For a global audience tuk tuk is the better word
Articles written to be read by audiences not the subject. For a global audience tuk tuk is the better word
The 3 wheeler e-rickshaws in India mostly use Lead Acid Batteries to keep costs down in order to undercut the incentives to buy an auto-rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes)
81% of all EV batteries in India are Lead-Acid [0]
From a Lithium dependency standpoint, the Indian government made exclusivity deals with Australia, Argentina, and Chile [1][2] to mine Lithium and transfer lithium enrichment technology to Indian companies. That said, it would take a decade for this to pan out.
> But the term jumped out while reading the sentence
Shows the credibility (or lack thereof) of the article. There is an EV boom in India, but this article accidentally turned into a submarine article.
[0] - https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2022/09/01/lead-in-dr...
[1] - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-tapping-i...
[2] - https://eastasiaforum.org/2024/01/27/indias-long-road-to-lit...
81% of all EV batteries in India are Lead-Acid [0]
From a Lithium dependency standpoint, the Indian government made exclusivity deals with Australia, Argentina, and Chile [1][2] to mine Lithium and transfer lithium enrichment technology to Indian companies. That said, it would take a decade for this to pan out.
> But the term jumped out while reading the sentence
Shows the credibility (or lack thereof) of the article. There is an EV boom in India, but this article accidentally turned into a submarine article.
[0] - https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2022/09/01/lead-in-dr...
[1] - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-tapping-i...
[2] - https://eastasiaforum.org/2024/01/27/indias-long-road-to-lit...
India has monazite; it's one of the reason they've had interest in thorium for thermal breeder reactors. Monazite is also an ore for REEs.
I was just about to mention thorium separately, in reply to gumby's comment above about the size of the subcontinent and its mineral potential, then saw your comment mentioning thorium, and decided to piggyback on it:
I have read somewhere that the black sands of Kerala's coast are black due to thorium. I have read that more than once, in different places.
I just googled monazite:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monazite
Excerpt:
[ Monazite is an important ore for thorium,[8] lanthanum, and cerium.[9] It is often found in placer deposits. India, Madagascar, and South Africa have large deposits of monazite sands. The deposits in India are particularly rich in monazite.
Monazite is radioactive due to the presence of thorium and, less commonly, uranium. ]
I have read somewhere that the black sands of Kerala's coast are black due to thorium. I have read that more than once, in different places.
I just googled monazite:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monazite
Excerpt:
[ Monazite is an important ore for thorium,[8] lanthanum, and cerium.[9] It is often found in placer deposits. India, Madagascar, and South Africa have large deposits of monazite sands. The deposits in India are particularly rich in monazite.
Monazite is radioactive due to the presence of thorium and, less commonly, uranium. ]
Some recent figures from the IEA suggested that electric 2 and 3 wheelers were currently displacing more oil demand than electric cars.
Almost all the stories seem to pitch this as a battle between the two camps, when I feel the obvious conclusion is that they'll accelerate each other as they both make people comfortable and familiar with electric motors and their various benefits (lower noise, pollution, running costs , oil imports etc.)
They also pair well with electric busses and trains for last mile transport of people and electric trucks for last mile delivery of goods.
Almost all the stories seem to pitch this as a battle between the two camps, when I feel the obvious conclusion is that they'll accelerate each other as they both make people comfortable and familiar with electric motors and their various benefits (lower noise, pollution, running costs , oil imports etc.)
They also pair well with electric busses and trains for last mile transport of people and electric trucks for last mile delivery of goods.
Electric cars are a viable product because they are a direct replacement for the kinds of cars people in the developed world have been driving for decades. But, in order to be that direct 1:1 replacement they have to be heavy and expensive because they have a big battery.
This is both another evolutionary path for EVs and it shows that EVs can be lighter, cheaper, and have a different sweet spot than electric cars.
This is both another evolutionary path for EVs and it shows that EVs can be lighter, cheaper, and have a different sweet spot than electric cars.
> Electric cars are a viable product because they are a direct replacement for the kinds of cars people in the developed world have been driving for decades.
Which may not matter much. People care about getting from A to B, quick & affordable.
With big cities getting more crowded (and thus, traffic jams & parking space at a premium), smaller 2- or 3-wheel electric vehicles have a leg up vs. full sized cars. Enough so that they replace [gasoline/diesel powered cars] faster than electric cars do.
Purchase / maintanance costs, tax incentives etc also work in favor of these smaller / lighter vehicles.
Which may not matter much. People care about getting from A to B, quick & affordable.
With big cities getting more crowded (and thus, traffic jams & parking space at a premium), smaller 2- or 3-wheel electric vehicles have a leg up vs. full sized cars. Enough so that they replace [gasoline/diesel powered cars] faster than electric cars do.
Purchase / maintanance costs, tax incentives etc also work in favor of these smaller / lighter vehicles.
I have high hopes for e-bikes displacing a lot of car trips. They solve almost all bike usability issues for all types of riders: Aero isn't a concern so you can have have an upright riding position. 10-15 kilos of groceries is easily accommodated. Hills are no problem. Alloy frames are cheap to make. Wheels can be very sturdy. Tires can have run-flat inserts. Losing momentum at stoplights isn't a problem. Outside of places where winter is long and snowy, e-bikes can be ideal.
Speaking from my UK perspective - an ebike would entirely replace my car for nearly all of my travelling needs, except that it's impossible to leave it safely in any public space - bicycle theft is absolutely rampant and prosecution is nearly zero, an expensive bike will be stolen, it's just a question of when not if.
It's just a very solid obstacle to this becoming a major way of travelling unless something is done about bike theft.
It's just a very solid obstacle to this becoming a major way of travelling unless something is done about bike theft.
Is the theft problem common there with the heavier ones? i.e. the ones that need a pair of fit people to lift it into a truck and take it away?
Given that motorcycle theft is also rampant and thieves have no issue moving a 200kg motorbike onto a van or a trailer, I'd assume it's not going to be a problem. But admittedly I don't know if cargo bikes and similar are also commonly stolen.
Have you any option of insurance ?
The issue in India is that bicycles (and to a lesser extent motorcycles) are a death wish. Plenty used, because also cheap. But I’ve personally seen several seriously nasty accidents that would not have hurt anyone even with the minimal protection that an auto rickshaw provides.
Also, women tend to get groped more on bicycles/bikes, and weather is a big problem. The shade on an auto rickshaw in Hyderabad, or when it rains in Bangalore are pretty handy.
Also, women tend to get groped more on bicycles/bikes, and weather is a big problem. The shade on an auto rickshaw in Hyderabad, or when it rains in Bangalore are pretty handy.
I agree there are going to be lots of market specific paths. Bikes are a death wish in many places in the US.
The trade off is either speed or safety - often both. Light EVs tend to still go too fast for safe operation - they are still heavy and fast enough to kill a lot of people. Heavy cars use a lot of that extra weight to make them safer for those inside.
I have two teenagers both of whom are (in my opinion!) quite capable of safely handling something like an e-rickshaw around UK streets … as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly light weight.
In my “fantasy political manifesto”, I think roads should be (re)arranged so that every child can walk or cycle to school. My new amendment is to add local light electric traffic (those god-awful scooters) and something like these rickshaws, on physically seperate but parallel routes.
Yes a 15 minute walkable city is nice, but a 15 minute drive opens up almost everything
Pay for it by taxing the wealthy btw. Delenda est carthago
In my “fantasy political manifesto”, I think roads should be (re)arranged so that every child can walk or cycle to school. My new amendment is to add local light electric traffic (those god-awful scooters) and something like these rickshaws, on physically seperate but parallel routes.
Yes a 15 minute walkable city is nice, but a 15 minute drive opens up almost everything
Pay for it by taxing the wealthy btw. Delenda est carthago
> as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly light weight.
This. I'd love to use an electric bakfiets to move my kids and myself around, but I'd be doing it on roads where people are moving around 1-2 tonne pieces of steel inches from the bike... The safety engineering of these bikes (and rickshaws) are just nowhere near a car, and unfortunately in my environment I cannot ensure sufficient distance.
This. I'd love to use an electric bakfiets to move my kids and myself around, but I'd be doing it on roads where people are moving around 1-2 tonne pieces of steel inches from the bike... The safety engineering of these bikes (and rickshaws) are just nowhere near a car, and unfortunately in my environment I cannot ensure sufficient distance.
I know it is important that bicycle infrastructure feels safe otherwise people will not start biking. From my own experience safety is usually not a problem, bakfiets are visible in traffic and the kids are obvious in most cargobikes.
My point is that the safety engineering is pretty good because the threats are so much smaller. Cars need protection because they move in very dangerous ways. Infrastructure is important because there is no way to be safe from a car crashing into you at 50mph.
My point is that the safety engineering is pretty good because the threats are so much smaller. Cars need protection because they move in very dangerous ways. Infrastructure is important because there is no way to be safe from a car crashing into you at 50mph.
Safety engineering takes a parameter: the environment you want to be safe in. For bakfietsen, the parameter chosen clearly wasn't on kilometers of fietsstroken on through-fares where to most likely collision isn't with another bakfiets or cyclist, but with a car. And it would be very difficult to do so, without turning it into a mini-car I suppose.
Is bakfiets an international word or are you Dutch, but if so aren't most Dutch roads/routes pretty safe for (electric) (bak)fietsen?
I'm Dutch. Many Dutch roads are, but also here there's a difference between urban and more rural environments. My particular environment has fietsstroken on an N-weg (which is signed at 50 km/h, but people often drive faster) as only option. These stroken were painted before 2006, when their advised minimum width was set at 1.5 m (they're still 1 m). I don't even cycle comfortable there myself, and I've lived in France for years which also didn't have great infra or friendly motorists. I've tried to argue (and will continue to do so) with my municipality for a separate bike road (or trail even), but since we're in a valley and between private land owners and legally untouchable nature areas, that bike road would need to come out of a car road. Since everybody drives here, that's not going to happen unless fuel prices triple or something.
Bakfiets is used here and there internationaly, bakfiets.nl is a brand that was pretty dominant ten years ago.
> quite capable of safely handling
Tuk tuk are three wheelers and handle like a reliant robin and can tip over quite easily .
E-scooters does the same thing better as you hint and they can be rented too . It doesn’t help all that much today .
Tuk tuk are three wheelers and handle like a reliant robin and can tip over quite easily .
E-scooters does the same thing better as you hint and they can be rented too . It doesn’t help all that much today .
Could we take matters into own hands and incorporate a new city somewhere from scratch? Or coordinate moving into an existing almost-willing city and take over the government?
I am curious if this could be done with something like California Forever. There are some examples, like Houten in the Netherlands, where the city was planned almost from the ground up with active transport in mind.
You also have https://www.bloommerwede.nl/, which is being built completely car-free near the middle of Utrecht.
Calling what is essentially Kanaleneiland "near the middle of Utrecht" is pretty disingenuous. There's not a whole lot of room to go further south without ending up in Nieuwegein.
That aside, the costs of initiatives like these will be enormous. They need to be financed with (or so projectmanagers tell me) those "XL penthouse" apartments and other larger offerings. There are basically no takers for that, not in the least because they'll be significantly north of 1 million euros. Even the affordable housing is generally pricy (think 350000+) and anything in those price ranges will be in the absolute minority.
If there is anything at all around 300000, it will be specifically for a so-called "middle income bracket". This is a very hard to attain bracket unless you are a two-person family with a relatively high but not very high income. For average incomes this bar is very hard to clear.
All that to say, it is clearly not made for most people in the country. Aspirational neighbourhoods meant only for rich people are available in many countries (as a specific enclave). It's part of what you pay for in such a location.
That aside, the costs of initiatives like these will be enormous. They need to be financed with (or so projectmanagers tell me) those "XL penthouse" apartments and other larger offerings. There are basically no takers for that, not in the least because they'll be significantly north of 1 million euros. Even the affordable housing is generally pricy (think 350000+) and anything in those price ranges will be in the absolute minority.
If there is anything at all around 300000, it will be specifically for a so-called "middle income bracket". This is a very hard to attain bracket unless you are a two-person family with a relatively high but not very high income. For average incomes this bar is very hard to clear.
All that to say, it is clearly not made for most people in the country. Aspirational neighbourhoods meant only for rich people are available in many countries (as a specific enclave). It's part of what you pay for in such a location.
Ten minute bike ride from Utrecht central seems pretty good to me. And yes, nice things cost money when there's a shortage. The trick is to keep building until there isn't a shortage. If bloom merwede had been available when we moved we might not have overbid on a rental and paid a year of rent up front to get a place in Hilversum (which is much less nice and more car focused) instead, thereby freeing up our home for someone else.
This first needs money. And with sufficient attention, the cause can attract culture warriors who weaponize the state bureaucracy against the efforts. See: de facto banning solar power stations in Ohio. So this probably has to happen in a "friendly" state.
Where would you put physically separate routes?
With kids attitudes are more of a problem.When I a kid a lot of kid used to come to school by public transport, but parents are a lot more protective these days.
My teenager does quite a lot by public transport and walking. The main problem is services are not frequent enough between towns (in Warwickshire).
IMO we should tax cars by weight and size, and restrict parking spaces for larger cars.
With kids attitudes are more of a problem.When I a kid a lot of kid used to come to school by public transport, but parents are a lot more protective these days.
My teenager does quite a lot by public transport and walking. The main problem is services are not frequent enough between towns (in Warwickshire).
IMO we should tax cars by weight and size, and restrict parking spaces for larger cars.
> Where would you put physically separate routes?
Reduce two-lane roads into single lane roads and make better use of the "removed" lane to transport people via bikes, scooters and even rickshaws (I don't see the advantage of having a three-wheeler when a decent cargo bike would work better).
Reduce two-lane roads into single lane roads and make better use of the "removed" lane to transport people via bikes, scooters and even rickshaws (I don't see the advantage of having a three-wheeler when a decent cargo bike would work better).
I agree, but investing in separated infrastructure will soon pay for itself - it's easily the best value for money for improving traffic flow whilst also improving people's health (if they choose active travel) and reducing NHS costs.
However, I don't think e-rickshaws will take off in the UK as our roads are already too crammed. Two wheelers (e-scooters and e-bikes) make more sense as they can avoid getting caught up in the four-wheeler congestion.
Also, there's some kind of fake culture war in the UK against any non-car-shaped transport option.
However, I don't think e-rickshaws will take off in the UK as our roads are already too crammed. Two wheelers (e-scooters and e-bikes) make more sense as they can avoid getting caught up in the four-wheeler congestion.
Also, there's some kind of fake culture war in the UK against any non-car-shaped transport option.
Two-wheeled cargo bikes are already starting to get popular in my area (although I imagine plenty of people see them as an annoying hipster affectation). People ride them pretty carefully -- taking the entire lane, etc -- as they're often carrying children.
So, I'm not so sure electric rickshaws couldn't take off.
So, I'm not so sure electric rickshaws couldn't take off.
Yeah, I see a few cargo bikes round my area (Bristol) too.
I'm not sure what the licensing requirements would be for e-rickshaws in the UK, though. I imagine you'd need registration, MOT and insurance for a non-pedal vehicle and that would make cargo bikes far more economical. If we had pedal e-rickshaws, they'd likely be limited to the same power as e-bikes and only for assist which would make them less popular and I can't see manufacturers being interested in making them.
I'm not sure what the licensing requirements would be for e-rickshaws in the UK, though. I imagine you'd need registration, MOT and insurance for a non-pedal vehicle and that would make cargo bikes far more economical. If we had pedal e-rickshaws, they'd likely be limited to the same power as e-bikes and only for assist which would make them less popular and I can't see manufacturers being interested in making them.
The imprisonment of children might be the worst thing about auto dependence. We have British friends who moved to the Netherlands for this very reason, actually, though Brexit makes it tougher.
So basically Peachtree City, Georgia: https://youtu.be/pcVGqtmd2wM?si=dLa_-qk7A8JtiPyI
> Pay for it by taxing the wealthy btw.
What a fresh and novel idea. Top 1% of earners in UK account for more than a third of income tax btw.
What a fresh and novel idea. Top 1% of earners in UK account for more than a third of income tax btw.
Wealthy = net worth
Top 1% of earners = income
Additionally, what proportion of total income does the top 1% account for? For instance, if they make 1/3rd of all income then paying 1/3rd of all tax is an amazing deal for them. if they only make 1/20th of all income, maybe less so.
Top 1% of earners = income
Additionally, what proportion of total income does the top 1% account for? For instance, if they make 1/3rd of all income then paying 1/3rd of all tax is an amazing deal for them. if they only make 1/20th of all income, maybe less so.
This is correlated though. If someone has $100MM in investments, then it's probably producing eight figures a year in interest and dividends, which are "income". Nevermind, a person at this wealth level likely has a high-income job.
I personally treat all capital appreciation as income for the purposes of net worth tracking.
I personally treat all capital appreciation as income for the purposes of net worth tracking.
Dividend taxes are lower than income taxes in the UK. So a person getting paid £100k in wages will end up with £68k after taxes, whereas someone getting paid the same in dividends will end up with around £80k, which is around 17% more than the wage earner.
So what's the problem with taxing a deci-millionaire?
The prefix for hundred is hecto, deci means tenth.
I know that. I said what I meant. Every hecto millionaire is a deci millionaire too.
Why do you think they aren’t currently taxed?
Passive income (rent from assets) is taxed less than active income.
That makes no sense.
Society benefits by rewarding people who work. And society benefits by dissuading people from not working and collecting rent.
That makes no sense.
Society benefits by rewarding people who work. And society benefits by dissuading people from not working and collecting rent.
Cite? Not true anywhere I know.
They can write off expenses in some cases, and capital gains are rightfully treated differently, but those are not the same situation.
They can write off expenses in some cases, and capital gains are rightfully treated differently, but those are not the same situation.
Why are capital gains not passive income?
In the US, we even have a lower tax rate (the capital gains tax rate) for dividends if you have held the asset for more than a year.
Even step up basis when assets get inherited is a bad incentive, not to mention the $13M federal gift tax exemption.
If you want people to swing hammers and perform surgeries, then don’t tax swinging hammers or performing surgeries (or tax it less).
And if you don’t want people living off their or their ancestor’s hoarded wealth, tax it so they either do something with it or dump it so someone else can. This segways into significantly higher land value taxes.
In the US, we even reward people who just sit on unproductive real estate by deferring all taxes via 1031 exchanges (you sell one property and buy another, and there’s no tax). And on top of that, you pay excessively low land value taxes for this store of wealth that the rest of society maintains and protects for you.
In the US, we even have a lower tax rate (the capital gains tax rate) for dividends if you have held the asset for more than a year.
Even step up basis when assets get inherited is a bad incentive, not to mention the $13M federal gift tax exemption.
If you want people to swing hammers and perform surgeries, then don’t tax swinging hammers or performing surgeries (or tax it less).
And if you don’t want people living off their or their ancestor’s hoarded wealth, tax it so they either do something with it or dump it so someone else can. This segways into significantly higher land value taxes.
In the US, we even reward people who just sit on unproductive real estate by deferring all taxes via 1031 exchanges (you sell one property and buy another, and there’s no tax). And on top of that, you pay excessively low land value taxes for this store of wealth that the rest of society maintains and protects for you.
Because capital gains can only occur when you sell something you bought. It’s a one time event, specific to a given asset.
income occurs without a change in control of some asset, due to dividends, pass through profits, wages, etc.
They’re fundamentally different types of things happening.
For example: rent == income. Selling the house? Capital gains.
As to if they are or should be taxed at different rates is orthogonal to if they are different types of events.
I can assure you, anyone that owns a home or stocks really would like to avoid treating them the same way. Which is a huge portion of the population, not just some random 1%’er somewhere.
And ‘unproductive’ real estate still pays property taxes.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, but there definitely are places that will make you broke if you eat there every day.
income occurs without a change in control of some asset, due to dividends, pass through profits, wages, etc.
They’re fundamentally different types of things happening.
For example: rent == income. Selling the house? Capital gains.
As to if they are or should be taxed at different rates is orthogonal to if they are different types of events.
I can assure you, anyone that owns a home or stocks really would like to avoid treating them the same way. Which is a huge portion of the population, not just some random 1%’er somewhere.
And ‘unproductive’ real estate still pays property taxes.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, but there definitely are places that will make you broke if you eat there every day.
> They’re fundamentally different types of things happening.
Long term capital gains and dividends are taxed at the same rate in the US. If a company doesn't currently pay dividends its stock price goes up because of a combination of:
a) inflation
b) the expectation of future dividends
c) stock buybacks (a dividend by another name)
So long term capital gains are mostly either dividends or the expectation of dividends.
> capital gains can only occur when you sell something you bought
The ultra-rich can borrow against appreciated assets and never sell. Their heirs inherit much of it tax free and with a stepped up cost basis.
Long term capital gains and dividends are taxed at the same rate in the US. If a company doesn't currently pay dividends its stock price goes up because of a combination of:
a) inflation
b) the expectation of future dividends
c) stock buybacks (a dividend by another name)
So long term capital gains are mostly either dividends or the expectation of dividends.
> capital gains can only occur when you sell something you bought
The ultra-rich can borrow against appreciated assets and never sell. Their heirs inherit much of it tax free and with a stepped up cost basis.
This is getting really weird.
The only dividends that can get taxed like capital gains are qualified dividends and they’re very rare. Because they are dividends from selling capital assets in a business or the like. All other types of dividends are taxed like income.
Which is why the behavior around capital gains.
The loan situation is very very specialized, and loans that aren’t paid back in a reasonable amount of time or have no interest get considered as either gifts or income by the IRS.
For someone sufficiently high net worth, I’m sure there are ways to play various shell games for awhile in this - and if sufficiently frugal, even past their death.
But property taxes still get paid every year, income taxes still get paid on income, and capital gains still get paid when there is an actual sale.
for example, Elon Musk also eventually had to pay the largest tax bill ever as an individual to finance his shenanigans. $11 billion dollars.
How does that fit in your theory?
The only dividends that can get taxed like capital gains are qualified dividends and they’re very rare. Because they are dividends from selling capital assets in a business or the like. All other types of dividends are taxed like income.
Which is why the behavior around capital gains.
The loan situation is very very specialized, and loans that aren’t paid back in a reasonable amount of time or have no interest get considered as either gifts or income by the IRS.
For someone sufficiently high net worth, I’m sure there are ways to play various shell games for awhile in this - and if sufficiently frugal, even past their death.
But property taxes still get paid every year, income taxes still get paid on income, and capital gains still get paid when there is an actual sale.
for example, Elon Musk also eventually had to pay the largest tax bill ever as an individual to finance his shenanigans. $11 billion dollars.
How does that fit in your theory?
Why do you think they're taxed enough?
> physically seperate but parallel routes.
That's the challenge. Seperate, but equal is hard. Routing separarated multiple everything to everything paths for at least three classes (walkers and slow? cyclists, light vehicles and fast? cyclists, cars) gets really difficult where there are intersections, because either the separate paths cross at most intersections, or you're building an awful lot of tunnels and bridges.
As a cyclist, there's also a major conflict within cylists with regard to speed. When you're cycling only a little faster than walkers, it's fine to be on a pedestrian trail, but somewhere around 15 mph, it's not really good for either cyclists or pedestrians to be combined; at that point, IMHO, it's better to be with faster traffic.
That's the challenge. Seperate, but equal is hard. Routing separarated multiple everything to everything paths for at least three classes (walkers and slow? cyclists, light vehicles and fast? cyclists, cars) gets really difficult where there are intersections, because either the separate paths cross at most intersections, or you're building an awful lot of tunnels and bridges.
As a cyclist, there's also a major conflict within cylists with regard to speed. When you're cycling only a little faster than walkers, it's fine to be on a pedestrian trail, but somewhere around 15 mph, it's not really good for either cyclists or pedestrians to be combined; at that point, IMHO, it's better to be with faster traffic.
Amsterdam manages to have intersections with cars, trams, bicycles, and pedestrians signaled separately and it’s working out pretty well!
In other words a completely unique traffic management solution is hard for people who have never encountered it before.
Sounds like the real problem is a lack of familiarity than anything inherent to the design.
Sounds like the real problem is a lack of familiarity than anything inherent to the design.
Amsterdam is dramatically lower density than the environments anywhere in Asia. And dramatically more orderly than anywhere I’ve seen in India.
Amsterdam is an absolute nightmare to be anything that participates in street traffic in. I've genuinely never met anyone that didn't think this was the case outside of some fringe elements that live inside of Amsterdam (and if I'd have to guess are just used to it).
I don't live there, have been there, had no problems and don't understand why you had any.
You could literally pay for it using the money you save on car infrastructure.
E-Rickshaws are very unstable, and they are overloaded on North Indian roads, with people sitting even in the shared driver's seat, increasing the lopsided tilt. A distant relative of mine was killed when the e-rickshaw in which he was riding overturned and crushed him. They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a pothole filled with water after rains. Traditional rickshaws have a wider base, and lower center of gravity. I think this particular design, popular all over north of India, is deadly. A safer design must be enforced.
Why would an E-Rickshaw have a higher center of gravity. EVs typically have a lower center of gravity than ICEVs as the battery usually sits lower in the chassis. Did the makers do something odd like mount the battery higher?
Here's how your average e-rickshaw in India looks - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVqwUlN8YsM
Most are using a low range lead acid battery you'd use for a gokart
They're death traps
Most are using a low range lead acid battery you'd use for a gokart
They're death traps
> A safer design must be enforced
They won't. Bajaj Automotive lobbied for this as a Hail Mary to save them after Egypt, Thailand, and other markets began the process of phasing out 3 wheelers, and all political parties agree that it helps undercut the goondagiri Auto Rickshaw unions (eg. Maharashtra's CM Eknath Shinde started his career as an auto rickshaw goonda)
They won't. Bajaj Automotive lobbied for this as a Hail Mary to save them after Egypt, Thailand, and other markets began the process of phasing out 3 wheelers, and all political parties agree that it helps undercut the goondagiri Auto Rickshaw unions (eg. Maharashtra's CM Eknath Shinde started his career as an auto rickshaw goonda)
> I think this particular design, popular all over north of India, is deadly.
Do you have any insight as to why this is? Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws? Shouldn't they be inherently more stable than both of those if you put the heavy battery in the floor?
> They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a pothole filled with water after rains.
Do you know why they don't they use larger front wheels from off-road motorcycles (or bike wheels like the traditional bicycle rickshaws)?
Do you have any insight as to why this is? Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws? Shouldn't they be inherently more stable than both of those if you put the heavy battery in the floor?
> They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a pothole filled with water after rains.
Do you know why they don't they use larger front wheels from off-road motorcycles (or bike wheels like the traditional bicycle rickshaws)?
I think they are too tall for the wheelbase. The design is narrower than traditional auto-rickshaws. I think one of the issues is I think that the battery is not heavy enough to stabilize the center of gravity once you start tipping over - instead of stabilizing, it probably makes it tip over faster.
I am not talking about crash testing or anything that sophisticated. Something as basic as the tendency to overturn is much higher. I have seen one happen right beside me, when one of the wheels went into a pothole, and the rickshaw tilted and overturned. A traditional auto (the standard Bajaj model ICE, for example) would have "jumped", but not overturned.
On this same note, the Bajaj ICE is slightly narrower at the top than the base, in a tapered design - this will increase stability.
Piaggio Ape is tapered towards the top and has backwheels turned inwards -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Ape#/media/File:Ape_Ca...
e-rickshaws show none of these features.
I am not talking about crash testing or anything that sophisticated. Something as basic as the tendency to overturn is much higher. I have seen one happen right beside me, when one of the wheels went into a pothole, and the rickshaw tilted and overturned. A traditional auto (the standard Bajaj model ICE, for example) would have "jumped", but not overturned.
On this same note, the Bajaj ICE is slightly narrower at the top than the base, in a tapered design - this will increase stability.
Piaggio Ape is tapered towards the top and has backwheels turned inwards -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Ape#/media/File:Ape_Ca...
e-rickshaws show none of these features.
> Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws
E-rickshaws need to keep costs down.
This is because there are a lot of benefits of buying an auto rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes, access to parking). And the prices are already at $2.5-3k.
This means most e-rickshaws need to be priced at $500-1.5k to be cost effective.
This means these e-rickshaws are macgyverred in local factories using lead acid batteries, weaker frames, low speeds, etc.
E-rickshaws need to keep costs down.
This is because there are a lot of benefits of buying an auto rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes, access to parking). And the prices are already at $2.5-3k.
This means most e-rickshaws need to be priced at $500-1.5k to be cost effective.
This means these e-rickshaws are macgyverred in local factories using lead acid batteries, weaker frames, low speeds, etc.
Last month I was traveling in Sri Lanka, and seeing all the tuk tuks zipping around, using those sub-optimal combustion engines, I thought that it would be little revolution when one would start selling EV rickshaws. Those vehicles are light, and do not do long drives (smaller battery needed), can charge once a day.
It would have to change few habits, but combined with a swapping battery all Gogoro for instance, it could be a nice solution for public transportation.
It would have to change few habits, but combined with a swapping battery all Gogoro for instance, it could be a nice solution for public transportation.
We're gonna need a new word for "tuk-tuk" if the vehicles are silent. Won't miss the smell, either.
>electric rickshaws
Life is cheap in India, there are tons of videos featuring people falling off bikes/overturned rickshaws head first straight under the wheel of a truck.
Life is cheap in India, there are tons of videos featuring people falling off bikes/overturned rickshaws head first straight under the wheel of a truck.
Yup, seen it first hand - among other things.
Auto rickshaws are much better than bikes in this and several other fronts when in heavy traffic, but also get stuck way easier in said heavy traffic.
There are reasons they are so popular though, no doubt!
Auto rickshaws are much better than bikes in this and several other fronts when in heavy traffic, but also get stuck way easier in said heavy traffic.
There are reasons they are so popular though, no doubt!
I'm from Southern India and I recently came to Sonipat (The place featured in the article) and was surprised to see these e-rickshaws all over the place, but what surprised me was how lean the rikshaw was. It can utmost fit two adult passengers and so they zip past the traffic like a motorbike; I guess that's because they're rikshaws and not e-autos (tuk-tuk)[1]
These little e-rikshaws seems to be the main transportation mode for local people here. I saw different kinds of these lean e-rikshaws in New Delhi too.
[1] https://www.bajajauto.com/three-wheelers/ev-re
These little e-rikshaws seems to be the main transportation mode for local people here. I saw different kinds of these lean e-rikshaws in New Delhi too.
[1] https://www.bajajauto.com/three-wheelers/ev-re
I have to imagine that all these new EV rickshaws are significantly cleaning up the air in countries like India, Vietnam and Thailand. Anyone on the ground floor confirm this?
I recall the particulates in the air of decades past being super hard on the lungs.
I recall the particulates in the air of decades past being super hard on the lungs.
While ev 3-wheelers have become quite common in India, I am not sure if they have led to any visible improvement in air quality. The earlier 3-wheelers were already CNG based and not as inefficient as petrol/gasoline powered ones. We are a developing country so I believe the growth in private cars is also offsetting any gains from ev 3-wheelers.
To add to this, the particulates in the air are not entirely from this pollution, it is a sum of our terrain, geography, agricultural activities and pollution.
To add to this, the particulates in the air are not entirely from this pollution, it is a sum of our terrain, geography, agricultural activities and pollution.
There's too many "legacy" vehicles still on the road for these to make a noticeable impact. I was in Bangalore recently and in various popular and upcoming parts of the city, it's basically unbreathable toxic sludge at rush hour, and only mildly OK otherwise.
Tons of other air pollution sources too, from trash fires to cooking.
It would be nice to cut down on any one source, and cars are definitely a big problem, but not the only one.
It would be nice to cut down on any one source, and cars are definitely a big problem, but not the only one.
Yes like the sibling said, EVs are a fraction of the total number of vehicles on the Road. But adoption is growing every year. Hopefully in 10 years or so EVs will take over.
> are significantly cleaning up the air
Nope. They're a menace. The batteries are dumped after they die out, and random alleyway factories will make batteries without caring about externalities or chemical disposal [0].
> Vietnam and Thailand
Vietnam doesn't use 3 wheelers. Everyone buys a 2 wheeler.
Thailand has transitioned to cars. You don't see "Tuktuks" outside of tourist centers anymore.
A Toyota Hilux is the vehicle of choice in Thailand
[0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/govt-to-take...
Nope. They're a menace. The batteries are dumped after they die out, and random alleyway factories will make batteries without caring about externalities or chemical disposal [0].
> Vietnam and Thailand
Vietnam doesn't use 3 wheelers. Everyone buys a 2 wheeler.
Thailand has transitioned to cars. You don't see "Tuktuks" outside of tourist centers anymore.
A Toyota Hilux is the vehicle of choice in Thailand
[0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/govt-to-take...
> Thailand has transitioned to cars. You don't see "Tuktuks" outside of tourist centers anymore.
What are you talking about? I live in Thailand and there's tuktuks everywhere, especially outside tourist centres. And I make heavy use of an electric tuktuk ride-sharing service called Muvmi.
Yes, the Hilux is the most popular personal vehicle choice country-wide, because that includes a lot of rural areas. It's certainly not the most popular choice in the city. And people don't buy tuktuks for personal use, or Hiluxes for ride sharing, so I really don't know what you are trying to say.
What a weird, confident, and completely wrong comment.
What are you talking about? I live in Thailand and there's tuktuks everywhere, especially outside tourist centres. And I make heavy use of an electric tuktuk ride-sharing service called Muvmi.
Yes, the Hilux is the most popular personal vehicle choice country-wide, because that includes a lot of rural areas. It's certainly not the most popular choice in the city. And people don't buy tuktuks for personal use, or Hiluxes for ride sharing, so I really don't know what you are trying to say.
What a weird, confident, and completely wrong comment.
So, cleaning up the air but poisoning the waters?
Not even cleaning the air.
While India is working on massive green energy projects, it's also doubling down on expanding Coal Capacity [0] as a short term solution to energy independence. China's doing the same
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-increase-coal-...
While India is working on massive green energy projects, it's also doubling down on expanding Coal Capacity [0] as a short term solution to energy independence. China's doing the same
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-increase-coal-...
With EVs, even if they are powered by 100% coal electricity, they still produce less CO2 and pollution than an ICEV.
Considering how dirty most gas-powered rickshaws have been, I have to assume that the electric versions are much much cleaner in this regard.
Considering how dirty most gas-powered rickshaws have been, I have to assume that the electric versions are much much cleaner in this regard.
The e-rickshaws use lead acid batteries and "disposal infrastructure" is just chucking it to the side if it's dead.
A CNG auto-rickshaw is also similarly light on fumes.
In all honesty, all three-wheelers need to be banned in India, but it will never happen because that's political suicide.
A CNG auto-rickshaw is also similarly light on fumes.
In all honesty, all three-wheelers need to be banned in India, but it will never happen because that's political suicide.
Someone will collect the lead for scrap, it's valuable enough that even in wealthy countries it is worth stealing.
I take it you've never taken AP Chem.
Here's how you extract lead from lead acid batteries in the developing world (video is from Pakistan, but same principle in India, Vietnam, Phillipines, etc) [0], because Western Europe level environmental and labor laws aren't a thing.
[0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGg0P7B5fI
Here's how you extract lead from lead acid batteries in the developing world (video is from Pakistan, but same principle in India, Vietnam, Phillipines, etc) [0], because Western Europe level environmental and labor laws aren't a thing.
[0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGg0P7B5fI
So what's the problem? The battery is clearly recycled, it's not going to end up in a river, burned or in landfill.
That's great and all, but lead is nasty stuff. I really hope it's use will diminish. Lead handling is always fraught with risks at every turn.
What do you mean gas powered, they used to run two-stroke engines. Burning half oil.
One of my expat buddies in Saigon owned a small scooter repair shop. Next door to him was a battery "recycling" place where someone would sit out front on the busy street and bust open batteries to take them apart for the valuable bits. Dust and whatever else going everywhere. The person wasn't wearing any sort of protective gear at all and was covered in soot. The shops all backed into a river, where they'd just dump all the waste they couldn't sell. This was on a street a couple km's long, full of shops like this.
Toxic af.
Toxic af.
Yep! That's the same in India as well.
> One of my expat buddies in Saigon owned a small scooter repair shop
Oh whoa! Which quan was this? I subsisted off Grab so I never had to worry about scooter repair.
> One of my expat buddies in Saigon owned a small scooter repair shop
Oh whoa! Which quan was this? I subsisted off Grab so I never had to worry about scooter repair.
Best name ever: Phat Phuc Racing
Shop used to be here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mwR8F7gCey1W2HUb7
I'm 99% sure he shut it down during covid though.
It wasn't really a repair shop, more about bolting parts on for expats. Parts and repairs are super cheap and not something to be afraid of.
I also can't imagine not having a bike in Saigon, it was one of the main reasons I moved there! The city is so massive and amazing to explore and you can really only do that if you own a bike. Or, in my case, I just bought and sold used bikes all the time. Probably went through 25+ during my time there.
Shop used to be here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mwR8F7gCey1W2HUb7
I'm 99% sure he shut it down during covid though.
It wasn't really a repair shop, more about bolting parts on for expats. Parts and repairs are super cheap and not something to be afraid of.
I also can't imagine not having a bike in Saigon, it was one of the main reasons I moved there! The city is so massive and amazing to explore and you can really only do that if you own a bike. Or, in my case, I just bought and sold used bikes all the time. Probably went through 25+ during my time there.
at least in the Indian capital, over time the e-rickshaws have seemingly replaced most of the manually operated ones. neither was directly contributing to the problem, but i suppose the electric ones can be more efficient for space on the road.
Once you remove the "jin" from "jinrikisha", the vehicle can be electrified with substantially less irony.
Just took one the other day! There is still some work to do in terms of passenger comfort when compared to traditional rickshaws, but am happy to see the widespread adoption...
I'm not sure why Revolt's EV bikes didn't pick up enough sales
https://www.revoltmotors.com/
https://www.revoltmotors.com/
Yes, interesting question. I saw one being used by a guy, in my area.
Don't know how good it is, though.
Don't know how good it is, though.
Yet another HN loser of a downvoter bites the dust!
Probably, being laid off, or even otherwise, they have no life, and nothing better to do, than downvote innocuous replies to comments.
Way to go, dust eater!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_One_Bites_the_Dust
P.S. check out the supposedly Satanic meaning of the words in reverse,
Funny.
Probably, being laid off, or even otherwise, they have no life, and nothing better to do, than downvote innocuous replies to comments.
Way to go, dust eater!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_One_Bites_the_Dust
P.S. check out the supposedly Satanic meaning of the words in reverse,
Funny.
Why does chart start in 2014 at zero? What happened in 2014 that suddenly allowed EV to exist?
american's 4 wheel car shape, while incredibly safe
is now an impediment to movility innovation
is now an impediment to movility innovation
I don't think it's as simple as "American vehicle trends are very safe"
"ongoing pedestrian safety crisis in the US in which fatalities are at a 40-year high and the number of pedestrians killed has increased by 80 percent since hitting a low in 2009."
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/14/23960624/truck-suv-hood-...
"ongoing pedestrian safety crisis in the US in which fatalities are at a 40-year high and the number of pedestrians killed has increased by 80 percent since hitting a low in 2009."
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/14/23960624/truck-suv-hood-...
American vehicles are very safe, for the people inside of them.
The overall number is quite small. Looking at the number going back to 70s and it's practically flat, while population has grown 50% since 1975.
https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedes...
This is hardly a crisis.
https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedes...
This is hardly a crisis.
"practically flat" i.e. increasing again, erasing recent gains, is no great victory when the number in other comparable countries is still decreasing.
Also have to consider safety for the pedestrian which I think may be better for a 3 wheeler?
If we're comparing to the 3-wheel design common in India, I'm not sure about that actually. I saw a video recently that showed how cars with a lower front profile do much less damage in collisions with pedestrians (because the pedestrians roll over the top I guess) compared to higher front profiles (which ensure the pedestrian takes the full force of the impact or even gets knocked in front of the vehicle and then run over)
The 3-wheel design wouldn't allow for pedestrians in collisions "rolling over the top" but perhaps it's narrow enough that they could be knocked off to the side more easily?
At the very least, being run over by one is probably much less dangerous than being run over by a larger car closer to the typical size in the western world.
The 3-wheel design wouldn't allow for pedestrians in collisions "rolling over the top" but perhaps it's narrow enough that they could be knocked off to the side more easily?
At the very least, being run over by one is probably much less dangerous than being run over by a larger car closer to the typical size in the western world.
Safety of all passengers certainly is not, just look at it. Easy to trip, roll, break necks, crush folks inside.
Plus no seatbelts in many (all?) that I've ridden in
Maybe a little, but they are still heavy enough to be deadly if hit at speed.
Iin 2023 Mercedes showed a lightweight aero-efficient EV concept with a 620 mile range using a relatively small battery. That kind of thing will eventually feed into a virtuous cycle for EVs: less battery weight means lower cost means more range.
While it's fashionable to blame us for everything, Gottlieb Daimler beat us to it.
This is the real take-away:
> Baran is not an engineer by education. He started working at the factory in 2017 as a helper — dusting, cleaning, and organizing items. A year later, he got the opportunity to upskill and get trained in welding by Chinese engineers. Nearly 80% of Baran’s 200 co-workers have followed a similar trajectory. “[They] taught us all the work,” Baran told Rest of World. “They taught us welding — how to put the parts and cut them. Over time, I picked up the work and got promoted. Now, our people can also teach these things.”
They're teaching people to fish. It's not out-sourcing (from China into India), it's talent development.
> “The link [with the Chinese suppliers] became so good that they also believed in us, invested money with us, and shared technology with us,” Kakkar said. Chinese engineers stayed “for days” to train welders like Baran when the factory first opened, he said.
This is how you build partnerships and loyalty, and develop sustainable business relationships.
> His company’s ethos, according to Kakkar, is “Make in India, but technology from China.”
An apt summary of how we should be helping each other across the globe.
> Baran is not an engineer by education. He started working at the factory in 2017 as a helper — dusting, cleaning, and organizing items. A year later, he got the opportunity to upskill and get trained in welding by Chinese engineers. Nearly 80% of Baran’s 200 co-workers have followed a similar trajectory. “[They] taught us all the work,” Baran told Rest of World. “They taught us welding — how to put the parts and cut them. Over time, I picked up the work and got promoted. Now, our people can also teach these things.”
They're teaching people to fish. It's not out-sourcing (from China into India), it's talent development.
> “The link [with the Chinese suppliers] became so good that they also believed in us, invested money with us, and shared technology with us,” Kakkar said. Chinese engineers stayed “for days” to train welders like Baran when the factory first opened, he said.
This is how you build partnerships and loyalty, and develop sustainable business relationships.
> His company’s ethos, according to Kakkar, is “Make in India, but technology from China.”
An apt summary of how we should be helping each other across the globe.
Toyota did this in the US and it has been rightfully, wildly successful for them.
[deleted]
the move to electric should definitely accompany a change in the size of vehicles. because of their increased mass, electric cars are a lot more dangerous than ye olde combustion engine auto.
that only applies within similar vehicle classes. A big-assed SUV is big and heavy whether ICEV or EV. A small sedan or hatchback EV is much lighter than ICEV SUVs and trucks.
3 Wheeler EVs are booming because the prices are very low and allow you start your own business by undercutting Auto Rickshaw unions. Your average auto rickshaw or e-rickshaw driver can make around $150-200/mo tax free and eligible for subsidies, making it more competitive than working at a factory ($250-300/mo but 5% income tax and not eligible for subsidies). This makes EV 3 wheelers attractive as it's an investment in a small business.
On the other hand, EV cars aren't as popular in India yet due to range anxiety. Price doesn't factor as much because the tax incentives are made to incentivize EV cars (50% tax on disel/gas cars bit 5% tax on EV) and EVs are fairly affordable (a starting model Tata Tiago EV is around $9-10k) but no one trusts EV charging infra in India, so people are delaying purchases in order to buy a premium diesel car (eg. Toyota Fortuner, Mahindra Thar), eat the tax and buy a $4-6k Renault or Maruti ICE car for $9-10k after tax, or just keeps driving their gas car. This will change in 10 years, but the future is looking Hybrid, especially because Toyota is looking at expanding in India and lobbied a drastic tax cut [0]
No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more and buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke. Most electric 2 wheeler sales are driven by Ola (India's Uber/Doordash) subsidizing it's drivers and deliverers to buy an Ola manufactured 2 wheeler while working for Ola.
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...