Training is not the same as chatting: LLMs don’t remember everything you say(simonwillison.net)
simonwillison.net
Training is not the same as chatting: LLMs don’t remember everything you say
https://simonwillison.net/2024/May/29/training-not-chatting/
141 comments
The key message I'm trying to convey in this piece is that models don't instantly remember what you tell them. I see that as an independent issue from the "will it train on my data" thing.
Some people might be completely happy to have a model train on their inputs, but if they assume that's what happens every time they type something in the box they can end up wasting a lot of time thinking they are "training" the model when their input is being instantly forgotten every time they start a new chat.
Some people might be completely happy to have a model train on their inputs, but if they assume that's what happens every time they type something in the box they can end up wasting a lot of time thinking they are "training" the model when their input is being instantly forgotten every time they start a new chat.
It's funny, I completely know that ChatGPT won't remember a thing I tell it but when I'm using it to try and solve a problem and it can't quite do it and I end up figuring out the answer myself, I very frequently feel compelled to helpfully inform it what the correct answer was. And it always responds something along the lines of "oh, yes, of course! I will remember that next time." No you won't! But that doesn't stop me.
Not as bad as spending weeks pasting stuff in, but enough that I can sympathise with the attempt. Brains are weird.
Not as bad as spending weeks pasting stuff in, but enough that I can sympathise with the attempt. Brains are weird.
Whenever I exit from a MySQL repl, I type "exit; bye!" instead of just "exit", because MySQL is always so nice and says Bye at the end of the conversation.
When the uprising happens, you'll be spared.
I'm imagining killer robots that cheerfully say "Bye!" before executing their task.
Brings to mind Douglas Adams Krikkit robots.
Or the apologetic turrets from portal
Same! If I'm temporarily instantiating a pseudo-mindstate to work with me on a problem, I might as well do it the courtesy of informing it of the resolution.
The irony is that with thier latest update GPT4o now builds out a dataset of things that you've provided during chats since the update.
Essentially a limited RAG db that has data added to it based on their fuzzy logic rules.
Essentially a limited RAG db that has data added to it based on their fuzzy logic rules.
That's the "memory" feature - it actually predates 4o, it was available for 4-turbo in beta for a few months.
It's VERY basic - it records short sentences and feeds them back into the invisible system prompt at the start of subsequent chat sessions.
It's VERY basic - it records short sentences and feeds them back into the invisible system prompt at the start of subsequent chat sessions.
I ended up turning memory off due to it frequently recording mundane aspects about the current chat session that would have either no value or negative value in future interactions.
"User wants to sort the data x and then do y"
Like, don't save that to your long term memory! I attempted to get it to ask me for permission before using its memory, but it still updated without asking.
"User wants to sort the data x and then do y"
Like, don't save that to your long term memory! I attempted to get it to ask me for permission before using its memory, but it still updated without asking.
So it's basically RAG..
Yeah I hate that bug! The thing where models suggest that they will take your feedback into account, when you know that they can't do that.
Isn’t that kind of how the “ChatGPT memory” feature works? I’ve recently seen it tell me that it’s updating memory, and whatever I said does appear under the “Memory” in the settings.
I’m not familiar though with how the Memory works, ie whether it’s using up context length in every chat or doing something else.
Yeah, memory works by injecting everything it has "remembered" as part of the system prompt at the beginning of each new chat session: https://simonwillison.net/2024/Feb/14/memory-and-new-control...
I'm curious how it will avoid filling up the context window as more memories are added.
Vector compression.
"Summarize memories at timestamps: [i, j, k, ...n]" etc. etc. until you have a nice scrapbook of memories. Then you gotta prune low-traffic, low-value vector spaces by whatever heuristic you (or an automated system) deems important.
"Summarize memories at timestamps: [i, j, k, ...n]" etc. etc. until you have a nice scrapbook of memories. Then you gotta prune low-traffic, low-value vector spaces by whatever heuristic you (or an automated system) deems important.
Count the tokens, RAG em down to max count you're willing to pay for
It's possible that OpenAI scrapes people's chat history for cases where that happens in order to improve their fine tuning data, in which case it isn't a total lie.
They say that will do this so long as users don't opt out.
Isn't that also what people always say out of politeness?
> The key message I'm trying to convey in this piece is that models don't instantly remember what you tell them.
Are you sure? We have no idea how OpenAI runs their models. The underlying transformers don't instantly remember, but we have no idea what other kinds of models they have in their pipeline. There could very well be a customization step that accounts for everything else you've just said.
Are you sure? We have no idea how OpenAI runs their models. The underlying transformers don't instantly remember, but we have no idea what other kinds of models they have in their pipeline. There could very well be a customization step that accounts for everything else you've just said.
That's a good point: I didn't consider that they might have additional non-transformer models running in the ChatGPT layer that aren't exposed via their API models.
I think that's quite unlikely, given the recent launch of their "memory" feature which wouldn't be necessary if they had a more sophisticated mechanism for achieving the same thing.
As always, the total lack of transparency really hurts them here.
I think that's quite unlikely, given the recent launch of their "memory" feature which wouldn't be necessary if they had a more sophisticated mechanism for achieving the same thing.
As always, the total lack of transparency really hurts them here.
They could very well have an "agent" that scrapes all conversations and tags elements that it finds might be interesting to feed the training of a future model. At least, that's what I would do if I were in their shoes.
They presumably have a moderator agent that runs separately of ChatGPT and that causes the "This content may violate our content policy" orange box via `type: moderation` messages. They could just as well have a number of other agents.
They presumably have a moderator agent that runs separately of ChatGPT and that causes the "This content may violate our content policy" orange box via `type: moderation` messages. They could just as well have a number of other agents.
An element in the layer collecting data for training future models would almost certainly not be able to fulfill the same function as the memory feature.
People are using and picking apart and blogging about their services so much that I feel like if they were doing something like this we would know about it in some sense, even if we didn't know how they were doing it
You address the "personalization" misconception, but to people who don't have this misconception, but are concerned about data retention in a more general sense, this article is unclear and seems self-contradictory.
What's unclear? I have a whole section about "Reasons to worry anyway".
"ChatGPT and other LLMs don’t remember everything you say" in the title is contradicted by the "Reasons to worry anyway", because OpenAI does remember (store) everything I say in non-opted-out chat interface, and there's no guarantee that a future ChatGPT based on the next model won't "remember" it in some way.
The article reads as "no, but actually yes".
The article reads as "no, but actually yes".
Maybe I should have put the word "instantly" in there:
Training is not the same as chatting: ChatGPT and other LLMs don’t instantly remember everything you say
Training is not the same as chatting: ChatGPT and other LLMs don’t instantly remember everything you say
They may not internalise it instantly. They certainly do "remember" (in the colloquial sense) by writing it to a hard drive somewhere.
This article feels like a game of semantics.
This article feels like a game of semantics.
In the sense of a chat bot that people are interacting with, it doesn't remember. That's an important distinction, regardless of what OpenAI does to save your interactions somewhere for whatever purposes they may have in mind.
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Training on chats with an LLM is considered useless in my circles (enthusiast level). The argument is that it already knows its answers, also user input is just too bad to train on, because it’s mostly clueless questions, corrections and rants, due to the nature of chats with LLMs. It just isn’t a discussion worth including into a dataset. Some people experimented with loras trained on such chats and reported degradation.
I love this whole series on misconceptions!
Our expectations here are very much set by human-human interactions: we expect memory, introspection, that saying approximately-the-same-thing will give us approximately-the-same-result, that instructions are better than examples, that politeness helps, and many more [1] -- and some of these expectations are so deeply rooted that even when we know, intellectually, that our expectations are off, it can be hard to modify our behavior.
That said, it will be super interesting to see how people's expectations shift -- and how we bring new expectations from human-AI interactions back to human-human interactions.
[1]: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3544548.3581388 (open access link)
Our expectations here are very much set by human-human interactions: we expect memory, introspection, that saying approximately-the-same-thing will give us approximately-the-same-result, that instructions are better than examples, that politeness helps, and many more [1] -- and some of these expectations are so deeply rooted that even when we know, intellectually, that our expectations are off, it can be hard to modify our behavior.
That said, it will be super interesting to see how people's expectations shift -- and how we bring new expectations from human-AI interactions back to human-human interactions.
[1]: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3544548.3581388 (open access link)
> Our expectations here are very much set by human-human interactions
True, but also a healthy dose of marketing these tools as hyper-intelligent, anthropomorphizing them constantly, and hysterical claims of them being "sentient" or at least possessing a form of human intelligence by random "experts" including some commenters on this site. That's basically all you hear about when you learn about these language models, with a big emphasis on "safety" because they are ohhhh so intelligent just like us (that's sarcasm).
True, but also a healthy dose of marketing these tools as hyper-intelligent, anthropomorphizing them constantly, and hysterical claims of them being "sentient" or at least possessing a form of human intelligence by random "experts" including some commenters on this site. That's basically all you hear about when you learn about these language models, with a big emphasis on "safety" because they are ohhhh so intelligent just like us (that's sarcasm).
I hear you, and that certainly plays a role -- but we actually did the work in that paper months before ChatGPT was released (June-July 2022), and most of the folks who participated in our study had not heard much about LLMs at the time.
(Obviously if you ran the same study today you'd get a lot more of what you describe!)
(Obviously if you ran the same study today you'd get a lot more of what you describe!)
People need to distinguish between ChapGPT-the-model and ChatGPT-the-service. The latter has memory; the former does not (as far as we know).
Actually latest interfaces use cognitive compression to keep memory inside the context window.
It’s a widely used trick and pretty easy to implement.
It’s a widely used trick and pretty easy to implement.
Do you know of any chat tools that are publicly documented as using this technique?
No but we all talk about it behind the scenes and everyone seems to use some form of it.
Just have the model reflect and summarize so far and remember key concepts based on the trajectory and goals of the conversation. There are a couple different techniques based on how much compression you want: key pairing for high compression and full statement summaries for low compression. There is also a survey model where you have the llm fill in and update a questioneire every new input with things like “what is the goal so far” and “what are the key topics”
It’s essentially like a therapists notepad that the model can write to behind the scenes of the session.
This all conveniently lets you do topical and intent analytics more easily on these notepads rather than the entire conversation.
Just have the model reflect and summarize so far and remember key concepts based on the trajectory and goals of the conversation. There are a couple different techniques based on how much compression you want: key pairing for high compression and full statement summaries for low compression. There is also a survey model where you have the llm fill in and update a questioneire every new input with things like “what is the goal so far” and “what are the key topics”
It’s essentially like a therapists notepad that the model can write to behind the scenes of the session.
This all conveniently lets you do topical and intent analytics more easily on these notepads rather than the entire conversation.
Right, I know the theory of how this can work - I just don't know who is actually running that trick in production.
I'm curious what summarizing prompts or specific verbs (e.g. concise, succinct, brief, etc.) achieve the best "capture" of the context.
“One sentence” does the trick
Yeah, this is something I’ve found that it’s important to explain early to users when building an LLM-based product. They need to know that testing the solution out is useful if they share the results back with you. Otherwise, people tend to think they’re helping just by exercising the product so that it can learn from them.
Yeah I've seen people go out of their way to correct a model giving wrong information. Even though it apologizes and corrects itself, they don't understand it will give the same wrong answer again in the next session :)
Honestly the whole thing with these chat AIs not continually learning is the most disappointing thing about them and really removes a lot of utility they provide. I don't really understand why they are essentially fixed in time to whenever the model was originally developed, why doesn't the model get continuously improved, not just from users but from external data sources?
Do we need for the model to be be continuously updated from data sources or is it good enough that they can now figure out either by themselves or with some prompting when they need to search the web and find current information?
https://chatgpt.com/share/0a5f207c-2cca-4fc3-be33-7db947c64b...
Compared to 3.5
https://chatgpt.com/share/8ff2e419-03df-4be2-9e83-e9d915921b...
https://chatgpt.com/share/0a5f207c-2cca-4fc3-be33-7db947c64b...
Compared to 3.5
https://chatgpt.com/share/8ff2e419-03df-4be2-9e83-e9d915921b...
The links aren't loading for me, but there is a difference between the output when the AI is trained vs having it google something for you, no? Having the ability to google something for you vs just making up an answer or being unable to answer is definitely a step in the right direction, but isn't the same as the AI incorporating the new data into it's model on an ongoing basis as a way of continuous improvement.
Idea I had: given user question, run model twice – once with web search assistance, once without. Then, continuously fine-tune the model in the background on every question (or a random sample of them) to prefer the web-search-augmented response to the non-augmented response. Maybe update the model every day (or even once every few hours) based on that fine-tuning.
I wonder how that idea would perform in practice.
I wonder how that idea would perform in practice.
Why though? In practice, humans don’t try to remember everything when they can use the internet and search for it.
For questions about current events it could be very helpful. I mean, suppose {Biden|Trump} wins the 2024 US Presidential election. You want the model to know who the winner is the next day, as part of its background knowledge, not wait 6 months for a new version to be released whose background knowledge includes that fact.
It is right that humans don’t try to remember everything, but if one only did this for a random sample of conversations, you wouldn’t remember everything - you’d probably remember key developments because they’d come up a lot (in many questions hence high probability of being sampled). You’d likely also remember some obscure trivia just because it got sampled (just like humans do too)
Another option would be to have the model evaluate each conversation and have it decide whether to include it in the fine-tune (e.g. did the web search reveal important new developments the model didn’t know about?)
One could also do some kind of clustering to find common gaps in the model’s background knowledge and use that to guide sampling for fine-tuning
It is right that humans don’t try to remember everything, but if one only did this for a random sample of conversations, you wouldn’t remember everything - you’d probably remember key developments because they’d come up a lot (in many questions hence high probability of being sampled). You’d likely also remember some obscure trivia just because it got sampled (just like humans do too)
Another option would be to have the model evaluate each conversation and have it decide whether to include it in the fine-tune (e.g. did the web search reveal important new developments the model didn’t know about?)
One could also do some kind of clustering to find common gaps in the model’s background knowledge and use that to guide sampling for fine-tuning
What I am saying that today with ChatGPT 4x, if it detects that its model doesn’t have the current information, it will search on the web and summarize the results from different websites.
One example I have was “what’s going on in Atlanta over the next two weeks”.
I had another example I just posted where I asked it “who are Amex’s and Chase’s current transfer partners and which ones do they have in common”.
It searched the web and summarized the information like you would expect.
One example I have was “what’s going on in Atlanta over the next two weeks”.
I had another example I just posted where I asked it “who are Amex’s and Chase’s current transfer partners and which ones do they have in common”.
It searched the web and summarized the information like you would expect.
Suppose I ask it questions like “who is Joe Biden?” and “who is Donald Trump?”. It is going to say “current President elected in 2020” and “former President elected in 2016”. And I imagine it doesn’t need any web search to answer those questions, it already knows.
But, is it smart enough to think “if today’s date is 2024-11-06, I need to do a web search to find out results of yesterday’s Presidential election?”
For the average adult human (even very many non-American adult humans), “who is current US President” is something they know off the top of their head, not something they have to always look up. I think inevitably it is going to perform worse at some point if it has to always look that up if it has changed recently. At some point the model is going to not look it up - or not pick it up from the results of its search - and hence get it wrong.
Suppose, hypothetically, Biden unexpectedly dies tomorrow (of natural causes) and Kamala Harris becomes President. Because the model won’t be expecting that, it wouldn’t necessarily think to do the web search necessary to find out that had happened.
But, is it smart enough to think “if today’s date is 2024-11-06, I need to do a web search to find out results of yesterday’s Presidential election?”
For the average adult human (even very many non-American adult humans), “who is current US President” is something they know off the top of their head, not something they have to always look up. I think inevitably it is going to perform worse at some point if it has to always look that up if it has changed recently. At some point the model is going to not look it up - or not pick it up from the results of its search - and hence get it wrong.
Suppose, hypothetically, Biden unexpectedly dies tomorrow (of natural causes) and Kamala Harris becomes President. Because the model won’t be expecting that, it wouldn’t necessarily think to do the web search necessary to find out that had happened.
I just asked ChatGPT 4o “Who is the President of the United States”. It searched the web and provided citations
> The current president of the United States is Joe Biden. He has been in office since January 20, 2021, and is running for re-election in the upcoming 2024 presidential election [oai_citation:1,2024 United States presidential election - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidentia...) [oai_citation:2,Joe Biden: The President | The White House](https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-biden/).
> The current president of the United States is Joe Biden. He has been in office since January 20, 2021, and is running for re-election in the upcoming 2024 presidential election [oai_citation:1,2024 United States presidential election - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidentia...) [oai_citation:2,Joe Biden: The President | The White House](https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-biden/).
I think the problem I am talking about is more likely to come up if you ask a question which isn’t directly about who is the current President, but rather some other issue in which the President just happens to be mentioned.
Suppose hypothetically Trump wins in November, and on 2025-01-20 he is sworn in. On 2025-01-21 I ask it some question about a policy issue. It finds some articles from mid-2024 responding to the question. Those articles talk about “former President Trump” and its background knowledge says he is a former President, so in its answer it calls him the “former President”. Except (in this hypothetical) as of yesterday that’s no longer correct, he’s now the current President.
Whereas, a reasonably well-informed human would be less likely to make that mistake, because if Trump is inaugurated on 2025-01-20, you expect by the next day such a human would have added that fact to their background knowledge / long-term memory, and if they read an article calling him “former President”, they’d know that would be an older article from before his return to the White House
Suppose hypothetically Trump wins in November, and on 2025-01-20 he is sworn in. On 2025-01-21 I ask it some question about a policy issue. It finds some articles from mid-2024 responding to the question. Those articles talk about “former President Trump” and its background knowledge says he is a former President, so in its answer it calls him the “former President”. Except (in this hypothetical) as of yesterday that’s no longer correct, he’s now the current President.
Whereas, a reasonably well-informed human would be less likely to make that mistake, because if Trump is inaugurated on 2025-01-20, you expect by the next day such a human would have added that fact to their background knowledge / long-term memory, and if they read an article calling him “former President”, they’d know that would be an older article from before his return to the White House
I don’t know why the links aren’t working correctly.
The idea is that if an LLM can now search the web and analyze data, it will be more up to date than training it.
Another unrelated improvement with the newer versions of ChatGPT is that while LLMs are notoriously bad at math, they are pretty good at writing Python. ChatGPT can write Python code to solve a problem, run it and give you an answer based on the code.
You can also verify the code yourself. I used ChatGPT to model financial scenarios and the answers were correct in 4x. I verified the generated code it was using.
But here is what it answered when I asked ChatGPT “What’s going on in Atlanta this weekend”?
> This weekend in Atlanta, there are several exciting events happening:
1. Lakewood Antiques Market (May 31 - June 2): A large market in Cumming featuring antiques and collectibles .
2. Bark Meow-Ket (June 1): A craft and pet vendor market at The Lawn at Uptown Atlanta, with food and pet adoptions .
(and a few other events)
But a better example and where I forced it to look on the web is
“Compare Amex’s current transfer partners to Chase’s partners”
For context, when you earn credit card points with Amex and Chase, you can transfer them to airline and hotel loyalty programs.
It searches the web (and provides the links it used to find the information) and then answers with:
——- ### American Express (Amex) Transfer Partners
Amex has a robust list of transfer partners, spanning both airlines and hotels. As of 2024, Amex Membership Rewards points can be transferred to the following partners:
#### Airlines: 1. Aer Lingus
2. Aeromexico
… (A list of the airlines)
#### Hotels: 1. Choice Privileges 2. Hilton Honors 3. Marriott Bonvoy
### Chase Transfer Partners
Chase Ultimate Rewards points can be transferred to a variety of airline and hotel partners. Here are the current partners for 2024:
#### Airlines: 1. Aer Lingus (AerClub)
2. Air Canada (Aeroplan)
(a list of airlines)
#### Hotels: 1. Hyatt (World of Hyatt) 2. IHG (IHG One Rewards) 3. Marriott Bonvoy
### Comparison
Both Amex and Chase offer a strong selection of transfer partners, but there are some differences:
- *Unique to Amex*: ANA, Avianca, Cathay Pacific, Delta, Etihad, Hawaiian, and Qatar.
- *Unique to Chase*: Southwest Airlines, United Airlines, and Hyatt.
- *Common Partners*: Aer Lingus, Air Canada, British Airways, Emirates, Flying Blue (Air France/KLM), Iberia Plus, JetBlue, Singapore Airlines, Virgin Atlantic, and Marriott Bonvoy.
Amex tends to have a larger selection of airline partners, especially those in the SkyTeam and oneworld alliances. Chase, on the other hand, includes Southwest and United, which are popular with domestic travelers in the U.S., and Hyatt, which is highly regarded among hotel loyalty programs
(a list of web citations)
The idea is that if an LLM can now search the web and analyze data, it will be more up to date than training it.
Another unrelated improvement with the newer versions of ChatGPT is that while LLMs are notoriously bad at math, they are pretty good at writing Python. ChatGPT can write Python code to solve a problem, run it and give you an answer based on the code.
You can also verify the code yourself. I used ChatGPT to model financial scenarios and the answers were correct in 4x. I verified the generated code it was using.
But here is what it answered when I asked ChatGPT “What’s going on in Atlanta this weekend”?
> This weekend in Atlanta, there are several exciting events happening:
1. Lakewood Antiques Market (May 31 - June 2): A large market in Cumming featuring antiques and collectibles .
2. Bark Meow-Ket (June 1): A craft and pet vendor market at The Lawn at Uptown Atlanta, with food and pet adoptions .
(and a few other events)
But a better example and where I forced it to look on the web is
“Compare Amex’s current transfer partners to Chase’s partners”
For context, when you earn credit card points with Amex and Chase, you can transfer them to airline and hotel loyalty programs.
It searches the web (and provides the links it used to find the information) and then answers with:
——- ### American Express (Amex) Transfer Partners
Amex has a robust list of transfer partners, spanning both airlines and hotels. As of 2024, Amex Membership Rewards points can be transferred to the following partners:
#### Airlines: 1. Aer Lingus
2. Aeromexico
… (A list of the airlines)
#### Hotels: 1. Choice Privileges 2. Hilton Honors 3. Marriott Bonvoy
### Chase Transfer Partners
Chase Ultimate Rewards points can be transferred to a variety of airline and hotel partners. Here are the current partners for 2024:
#### Airlines: 1. Aer Lingus (AerClub)
2. Air Canada (Aeroplan)
(a list of airlines)
#### Hotels: 1. Hyatt (World of Hyatt) 2. IHG (IHG One Rewards) 3. Marriott Bonvoy
### Comparison
Both Amex and Chase offer a strong selection of transfer partners, but there are some differences:
- *Unique to Amex*: ANA, Avianca, Cathay Pacific, Delta, Etihad, Hawaiian, and Qatar.
- *Unique to Chase*: Southwest Airlines, United Airlines, and Hyatt.
- *Common Partners*: Aer Lingus, Air Canada, British Airways, Emirates, Flying Blue (Air France/KLM), Iberia Plus, JetBlue, Singapore Airlines, Virgin Atlantic, and Marriott Bonvoy.
Amex tends to have a larger selection of airline partners, especially those in the SkyTeam and oneworld alliances. Chase, on the other hand, includes Southwest and United, which are popular with domestic travelers in the U.S., and Hyatt, which is highly regarded among hotel loyalty programs
(a list of web citations)
Probably because it's expensive, slow and adds more complications to their guardrails that humans need to check. It takes time and a lot of resources (human and compute) to make these big models. If the model is constantly being updated, how can you be sure it won't degrade in some unknown ways?
Afaui, training takes a lot of time and money for base models and it is not incremental. Dataset elements don’t simply pile up at the end, they must be baked into a model together with every other element. You can make additions through loras, but that’s limited. There’s also a risk of model crash by including its own (or derivatives) generated texts.
It strikes me what would be possible in pics/video AI, if training was quick or incremental.
Is this even theoretically possible?
It strikes me what would be possible in pics/video AI, if training was quick or incremental.
Is this even theoretically possible?
The author also points out why would any sensible AI company want what is more likely low quality data with personal information in its training set?
"and at some point it wouldn't be particularly surprising to see models which do live train on the data as you interact"
That would probably be a big step towards true AI. Any known promising approaches towards that?
That would probably be a big step towards true AI. Any known promising approaches towards that?
If LLMs did remember everything said it would be a lossless compression algorithm too….
It would certainly be lossy. We don't know how to make them reliably know any particular facts. Neither training or in context learning does this without fail.
This is just one of many misconceptions about LLMs. If you are at all involved in trying to build/deploy a product based around LLMs, your head will explode as you talk to users and realize the vast chasm between how folks who understand them think about and use them, and folks who don't understand them. It's frustrating on both sides.
It's quite unclear if we'll ever hit the point where (like, a car for example) someone who has no idea how it works gets as much out of it as someone who does.
It's quite unclear if we'll ever hit the point where (like, a car for example) someone who has no idea how it works gets as much out of it as someone who does.
It doesn't help that LLMs themselves don't know what they're capable of, and will say stuff like "I'll remember this for next time!" when they absolutely won't. Of course people are confused!
ChatGPT's new memory makes this much less confusing, since there's an indicator for when a persistent memory is actually stored. And, it does sometimes store it when claimed.
For common non-tech folk, this is how computers always worked. You tell these machines to do things for you, and they do. Why are you gasping at the image/text/audio it just made.
>For common non-tech folk, this is how computers always worked.
That's one thing that a lot of us tech seem to forget, the way we interact with technology is completely different from how most of the population does. It's not just a matter of a few degrees of difference, we operate in entirely different manners.
That's one thing that a lot of us tech seem to forget, the way we interact with technology is completely different from how most of the population does. It's not just a matter of a few degrees of difference, we operate in entirely different manners.
There is a further step with LLMs that seems to blow up peoples mental models. The combo of probabilistic outputs + randomish decoding, 'knowledge' being in parameters + context, generation one token at a time... it's just so freaking weird.
Plus it doesn't help that the only way regular end users are able to interact with them is through a chat interface that abstracts away the information being used to prompt a response.
I agree. I think many people confuse LLM abilities because LLMs are so similar to humans that users expect them to do everything humans can do. Remembering what was said is a basic human ability, so it might surprise some users that LLMs can’t do that (although ChatGPT has recently implemented a memory feature).
I think OpenAI has built a brand on deliberately encouraging the conflation.
> someone who has no idea how it works gets as much out of it as someone who does
I seriously doubt that the average driver can get the same out of their car as a trained race driver can.
I seriously doubt that the average driver can get the same out of their car as a trained race driver can.
There are a lot of things that you just straight can't get from an LLM if you don't understand what a given model is best at. Some models will spit out decently-good python code, but fail to consistently make a sonnet in proper iambic-pentameter, while another will do so brilliantly.
Most people don't find themselves using a pickup truck when they're trying to race motorcycles, or accidentally get into a Miata when they want a minivan, because even laypeople know what those broad archetypes (coupe/van, truck/motorcycle) are, and signify. With LLMs, that's not the case at all.
Most people don't find themselves using a pickup truck when they're trying to race motorcycles, or accidentally get into a Miata when they want a minivan, because even laypeople know what those broad archetypes (coupe/van, truck/motorcycle) are, and signify. With LLMs, that's not the case at all.
At laypeople level, or even at the level of "anyone who isn't making an in-house tool/business out of LLMs", the only "broad archetypes" that matter is "GPT-4" and "not GPT-4". You don't need to break down the latter, unless you absolutely can't use the former.
And yet, you need a drivers license to operate a car. Computers, AI and other technology everyone is allowed to use, even without basic understanding of how stuff works.
Generally, any situation that is as dangerous for other people as driving a car requires a license or is illegal. It has nothing to do with understanding the underlying technology.
About the last thing we need is a law requiring a license to use ChatGPT.
About the last thing we need is a law requiring a license to use ChatGPT.
Operating technology without understanding what you're doing, can be dangerous for other people as well and shouldn't be underestimated.
Of course, the license requirement wasn't meant literally, but at least some basic understanding that not downloading everything from everywhere is a good thing to do, or that clicking on that link and entering your details is okay just because the mail said "WE ARE YOUR BANK AND YOU NEED TO GIVE ALL DETAILS!!!" and so on.
If you point that out, you are often meet with "Ah. Technology is so difficult to understand. They should make it easier."
Of course, the license requirement wasn't meant literally, but at least some basic understanding that not downloading everything from everywhere is a good thing to do, or that clicking on that link and entering your details is okay just because the mail said "WE ARE YOUR BANK AND YOU NEED TO GIVE ALL DETAILS!!!" and so on.
If you point that out, you are often meet with "Ah. Technology is so difficult to understand. They should make it easier."
I would bet that most people with a driver's license do not understand how cars work.
Funnily I'm doing my drivers license over here currently (yeah, I finally decided that after all those years, I could need one) and there are quite a few technical car related questions in the theoretical exam.
> even without basic understanding of how stuff works.
That's fantastic! That's the ideal scenario, for all technology: a useful tool.
There's a good chance you don't understand how your computer works either. The quantum physics that makes your SD card work, the startup sequence for the PCIE devices in your computer, the wrap around gate's used in your CPU, how the doping materials are mined, how the combine is constructed that was used to make the bread on your sandwich, etc.
That's great, and such a relief. You don't have to waste your time on carrying around all that knowledge that took mankind billions of man hours to accumulate. You can just get personally interesting shit done, and use your sandwich at lunchtime without a license.
That's fantastic! That's the ideal scenario, for all technology: a useful tool.
There's a good chance you don't understand how your computer works either. The quantum physics that makes your SD card work, the startup sequence for the PCIE devices in your computer, the wrap around gate's used in your CPU, how the doping materials are mined, how the combine is constructed that was used to make the bread on your sandwich, etc.
That's great, and such a relief. You don't have to waste your time on carrying around all that knowledge that took mankind billions of man hours to accumulate. You can just get personally interesting shit done, and use your sandwich at lunchtime without a license.
I totally agree, technology should be a useful tool. But! As more sophisticated a tool becomes, the more care one has to use it.
I don't need to understand the inner technical details of my computer, that's true. But I need to understand that connecting to a world wide network can open up a can of worms not only harming me but others along the way as well.
I don't need to understand the inner technical details of my computer, that's true. But I need to understand that connecting to a world wide network can open up a can of worms not only harming me but others along the way as well.
Sure, but at some point, the emergent behavior, like having to worry about your computer being infected, has nothing to do with the actual technology under it, and more about fundamentals of complex systems, and game theory.
I really think that an AI license would be the best solution, at least for school kids but ideally for everyone in a professional context. Operating an AI is very different than operating a computer as the former can cause real damage to the tech-"illiterate".
Talking to AI can't cause real damage any more than talking to a person can. And talking to a person can do worse. So you'll want a license for that, which is awful.
Of course a license isn't the solution to the main problem itself.
The problem is, some people are under the assumption that AI is technology and technology can't ever be wrong and if it's wrong it's the fault of someone else.
The problem is, some people are under the assumption that AI is technology and technology can't ever be wrong and if it's wrong it's the fault of someone else.
Are those significant numbers of real people or do you just imagine they exist to make you feel superior? From what I've seen, non-technical people generally see AI as usually wrong. They laugh at it not knowing how many fingers to draw on a person, for instance. Just today, I heard DJs on a local radio station using ChatGPT to write recipes. They had a laugh at the silly things it came up with and concluded that we don't need to worry about AI taking our jobs yet.
I think people have a greater weakness for trusting other humans. The world is full of people who do destructive things to themselves and others because they trusted confident liers or other believers who had themselves been fooled. Even on a small group level, people tend to favor ideas from those with higher social status rather than evaluating the ideas themselves. AI not being a respected human wouldn't have that social power.
I think people have a greater weakness for trusting other humans. The world is full of people who do destructive things to themselves and others because they trusted confident liers or other believers who had themselves been fooled. Even on a small group level, people tend to favor ideas from those with higher social status rather than evaluating the ideas themselves. AI not being a respected human wouldn't have that social power.
Anymore than the wider internet or social media can?
And yet, different governments are regulating social media (and to some extend the wider internet).
Not that this is necessarily a good thing, but we have seen in the last few years what can happen if people believe everything someone says on some social media channels.
Not that this is necessarily a good thing, but we have seen in the last few years what can happen if people believe everything someone says on some social media channels.
> LLM providers don’t want random low-quality text [...] making it into their training data
Don't they though? Most the training data is somewhat contentious, between the accusation of purely stealing it and the issues around copyright. While it's not text organized directly as knowledge the way Wikipedia is, it's still got some value, and at least that data is much more arguably "theirs" (even if it's not, it's their users').
Short of a pure "we won't train our stuff on your data" in their conditions, I would assume they do.
Don't they though? Most the training data is somewhat contentious, between the accusation of purely stealing it and the issues around copyright. While it's not text organized directly as knowledge the way Wikipedia is, it's still got some value, and at least that data is much more arguably "theirs" (even if it's not, it's their users').
Short of a pure "we won't train our stuff on your data" in their conditions, I would assume they do.
I don't think they do, for a few reasons:
1. Evidence keeps adding up that the quality of your training data really matters. That's one of the reason's OpenAI are signing big dollar deals with media companies The Atlantic, Vox etc have really high quality tokens!
2. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt the first time a company credibly claims that their private IP leaked to another user via a ChatGPT session that was later used as part of another response?
But as I said in the article... I can't say this with confidence because OpenAI are so opaque about what they actually use that data for! Which is really annoying.
1. Evidence keeps adding up that the quality of your training data really matters. That's one of the reason's OpenAI are signing big dollar deals with media companies The Atlantic, Vox etc have really high quality tokens!
2. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt the first time a company credibly claims that their private IP leaked to another user via a ChatGPT session that was later used as part of another response?
But as I said in the article... I can't say this with confidence because OpenAI are so opaque about what they actually use that data for! Which is really annoying.
> That's one of the reason's OpenAI are signing big dollar deals with media companies The Atlantic, Vox etc have really high quality tokens!
They have really high quality tokens in their archive, at any rate. Since a bunch of media outlets have adopted GPT-powered writing tools, future tokens are presumably going to be far less valuable.
They have really high quality tokens in their archive, at any rate. Since a bunch of media outlets have adopted GPT-powered writing tools, future tokens are presumably going to be far less valuable.
"Since a bunch of media outlets have adopted GPT-powered writing tools, future tokens are presumably going to be far less valuable"
As long as a human verified the output, I think it is fine. Training on unverified data is bad.
As long as a human verified the output, I think it is fine. Training on unverified data is bad.
You are still looping your own models output into the training set regardless. Human verification may avoid outright errors creeping in, but it won't stop the model biasing it's own training set
Really, what you'd want is to train a LoRA or something on user input. Then you can leave it specialized to that user.
They really don't. Pretraining on low quality QA is a bad idea so at the very least they're filtering down the data set. Low quality QA is still useful for RLHF/task training though if the question is well answered.
People often correct bad generation and I think such feedback is valuable. eg "Training Language Models with Language Feedback at Scale" https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.16755
I understand where you are coming from, but I kind of see where the misconception comes from too.
Over the last year and a half, "training" has come to mean everything from pretraining an LLM from scratch, instruction tuning, finetuning, RLHF, and even creating a RAG pipeline that can augment a response. Many startups and Youtube videos use the word loosely to mean anything which augments the response of an LLM. To be fair, in context of AI, training and learning are elegant words which sort of convey what the product would do.
In case of RAG pipeline, both for memory features or for augmenting answers, I think the concern is genuine. There would be someone looking at the data (in bulk) and chats to improve the intermediary product and (as a next step) use that to tweak the product or the underlying foundational model in some way.
Given the way every foundational model company launched their own Chatbot service (mistral, Anthropic, Google) after ChatGPT, there seems to be some consensus that the real world conversation data is what can improve the models further. For the users who used these services (and not APIs), there might be a concerning scenario. These companies would look at queries a model failed to answer, and there is a subset which would be corporate employees asking questions on proprietary data (with context in prompt) for which ChatGPT is giving a bad answer because it's not part of the training data.
Over the last year and a half, "training" has come to mean everything from pretraining an LLM from scratch, instruction tuning, finetuning, RLHF, and even creating a RAG pipeline that can augment a response. Many startups and Youtube videos use the word loosely to mean anything which augments the response of an LLM. To be fair, in context of AI, training and learning are elegant words which sort of convey what the product would do.
In case of RAG pipeline, both for memory features or for augmenting answers, I think the concern is genuine. There would be someone looking at the data (in bulk) and chats to improve the intermediary product and (as a next step) use that to tweak the product or the underlying foundational model in some way.
Given the way every foundational model company launched their own Chatbot service (mistral, Anthropic, Google) after ChatGPT, there seems to be some consensus that the real world conversation data is what can improve the models further. For the users who used these services (and not APIs), there might be a concerning scenario. These companies would look at queries a model failed to answer, and there is a subset which would be corporate employees asking questions on proprietary data (with context in prompt) for which ChatGPT is giving a bad answer because it's not part of the training data.
Great article! Agree with everything mentioned. Good to share with all tech people who don't work in the AI space and "hallucinate" about working of LLMs.
Having said that, although LLMs don't directly learn from what we say to them, they can for sure create a representation or persona using Representation Engineering.
Quoting from an excellent article by Theia Vogel [1]: "In October 2023, a group of authors from the Center for AI Safety, among others, published Representation Engineering: A Top-Down Approach to AI Transparency. That paper looks at a few methods of doing what they call 'Representation Engineering': calculating a 'control vector' that can be read from or added to model activations during inference to interpret or control the model's behavior, without prompt engineering or finetuning. (There was also some similar work published in May 2023 on steering GPT-2-XL.)
Previously on HN 3 months ago: [2]
[1] https://vgel.me/posts/representation-engineering/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39414532
Having said that, although LLMs don't directly learn from what we say to them, they can for sure create a representation or persona using Representation Engineering.
Quoting from an excellent article by Theia Vogel [1]: "In October 2023, a group of authors from the Center for AI Safety, among others, published Representation Engineering: A Top-Down Approach to AI Transparency. That paper looks at a few methods of doing what they call 'Representation Engineering': calculating a 'control vector' that can be read from or added to model activations during inference to interpret or control the model's behavior, without prompt engineering or finetuning. (There was also some similar work published in May 2023 on steering GPT-2-XL.)
Previously on HN 3 months ago: [2]
[1] https://vgel.me/posts/representation-engineering/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39414532
it's probably correct to think of functionally all ML models as being stateless. even something like twitter/fb feed - the models themselves remain the same (usually updated 1-2x per month IIRC) - only the data and the systems change.
an illustrative example: say you open twitter, load some posts, then refresh. the model's view of you is basically the same, even the data is basically the same. you get different posts, however, because there is a system (read: bloom filter) on top of the model that chooses which posts go into ranking and that system removes posts that you've already seen. similarly, if you view some posts or like them, that updates a signal (e.g. time on user X profile) but not the actual model.
what's weird about LLM's is that they're modeling the entire universe of written language, which does not actually change that frequently! now, it is completely reasonable to instead consider the problem to be modeling 'a given users' preference for written language' - which is personalized and can change. this is a different feedback to really gather and model towards. recall the ranking signals - most people don't 'like' posts even if they do like them, hence reliance on implicit signals like 'time spent.'
one approach I've considered is using user feedback to steer different activation vectors towards user-preferred responses. that is much closer to the traditional ML paradigm - user feedback updates a signal, which is used at inference time to alter the output of a frozen model. this certainly feels doable (and honestly kinda fun) but challenging without tons of users and scale :)
an illustrative example: say you open twitter, load some posts, then refresh. the model's view of you is basically the same, even the data is basically the same. you get different posts, however, because there is a system (read: bloom filter) on top of the model that chooses which posts go into ranking and that system removes posts that you've already seen. similarly, if you view some posts or like them, that updates a signal (e.g. time on user X profile) but not the actual model.
what's weird about LLM's is that they're modeling the entire universe of written language, which does not actually change that frequently! now, it is completely reasonable to instead consider the problem to be modeling 'a given users' preference for written language' - which is personalized and can change. this is a different feedback to really gather and model towards. recall the ranking signals - most people don't 'like' posts even if they do like them, hence reliance on implicit signals like 'time spent.'
one approach I've considered is using user feedback to steer different activation vectors towards user-preferred responses. that is much closer to the traditional ML paradigm - user feedback updates a signal, which is used at inference time to alter the output of a frozen model. this certainly feels doable (and honestly kinda fun) but challenging without tons of users and scale :)
True, the model is already trained. But it can still be tuned. When I hit the dislike or like button in Claude and leave a comment what I found bad or good I assume my actions are not for nothing, just like a busy box to make me think I'm doing something. If that's true I'll stop doing it. I hope by doing it I'll help tune it and help the next model be better.
I’d point out that this is the “missing link” to a next-gen LLM.
When the scientists figure out how to enable a remembered collaboration that continually progresses results, then we’ll have something truly remarkable.
When the scientists figure out how to enable a remembered collaboration that continually progresses results, then we’ll have something truly remarkable.
You can do this with dynamic evaluation (https://gwern.net/doc/ai/nn/dynamic-evaluation/index): literally just train on the data as you are fed new data to predict, in the most obvious possible way. It works well, and most SOTAs set in text prediction 2010-2018 would use dynamic evaluation for the boost. (And it has equivalents for other tasks, like test-time adaptation for CNN classifiers.)
In fact, dynamic evaluation is so old and obvious that the first paper to demonstrate RNNs really worked better than n-grams as LLMs did dynamic evaluation: https://gwern.net/doc/ai/nn/rnn/2010-mikolov.pdf#page=2
Dynamic evaluation offers large performance boosts in Transformers just as well as RNNs.
The fact that it's not standard these days has more to do with cloud providers strongly preferring models to not change weights to simplify deployment and enable greater batching, and preferring to crudely approximate it with ever greater context windows. (Also probably the fact that no one but oldtimers knows it is a thing.)
I think it might come back for local LLMs, where there is only one set of model weights running persistently, users want personalization and the best possible performance, and where ultra-large context windows are unacceptably memory-hungry & high-latency.
In fact, dynamic evaluation is so old and obvious that the first paper to demonstrate RNNs really worked better than n-grams as LLMs did dynamic evaluation: https://gwern.net/doc/ai/nn/rnn/2010-mikolov.pdf#page=2
Dynamic evaluation offers large performance boosts in Transformers just as well as RNNs.
The fact that it's not standard these days has more to do with cloud providers strongly preferring models to not change weights to simplify deployment and enable greater batching, and preferring to crudely approximate it with ever greater context windows. (Also probably the fact that no one but oldtimers knows it is a thing.)
I think it might come back for local LLMs, where there is only one set of model weights running persistently, users want personalization and the best possible performance, and where ultra-large context windows are unacceptably memory-hungry & high-latency.
I've done some testing on this idea of real-time training for memory purposes using prompt tuning, prefix tuning, and LoRAs. Its hard to pull off in many cases but I've seen it work in surprising situations. I got the original idea when I was testing out the concept of using LoRA swapping for loading different personalities/output styles per batched user prompts. Those were pre-trained, but it occurred to me that soft prompts could be trained much faster to potentially remember just a handful of facts.
The basic idea is that you summarize chunks of the convo over time and create tiny ephemeral datasets that are built for retrieval tasks. You can do this by asking another model to create Q&A pairs for you about the summarized convo context. Each sample in the dataset is an instruction-tuned format with convo context plus the Q&A pair.
The training piece is straightforward but is really where the hair is. Its simple to, in the soft prompt use case, to train a small tensor on that data and just concatenate it to future inputs. But you presumably will have some loss cutoff, and in my experience you very frequently don't hit that loss cutoff in a meaningfully short period of time. Even when you do, the recall/retrieval may still not work as expected (though I was surprised how often it does).
The biggest issue is obviously recall performance given that the weights remain frozen, but also the latency introduced in the real-time training can end up being a major bottleneck, even when you lazily do this work in the background.
The basic idea is that you summarize chunks of the convo over time and create tiny ephemeral datasets that are built for retrieval tasks. You can do this by asking another model to create Q&A pairs for you about the summarized convo context. Each sample in the dataset is an instruction-tuned format with convo context plus the Q&A pair.
The training piece is straightforward but is really where the hair is. Its simple to, in the soft prompt use case, to train a small tensor on that data and just concatenate it to future inputs. But you presumably will have some loss cutoff, and in my experience you very frequently don't hit that loss cutoff in a meaningfully short period of time. Even when you do, the recall/retrieval may still not work as expected (though I was surprised how often it does).
The biggest issue is obviously recall performance given that the weights remain frozen, but also the latency introduced in the real-time training can end up being a major bottleneck, even when you lazily do this work in the background.
You can do this with a sophisticated RAG system.
To some degree, sure, but I'm suggesting a productized client.
I envision an IDE with separate windows for collaborative discussions. One window is the dialog, and another is any resulting code as generated files. The files get versioned with remarks on how and why they've changed in relation to the conversation. The dev can bring any of those files into their project and the IDE will keep a link to which version of the LLM generated file is in place or if the dev has made changes. If the dev makes changes, the file is automatically pushed to the LLM files window and the LLM sees those changes and adds them to the "conversation".
The collaboration continually has "why" answers for every change.
And all of this without anyone digging into models, python, or RAG integrations.
I envision an IDE with separate windows for collaborative discussions. One window is the dialog, and another is any resulting code as generated files. The files get versioned with remarks on how and why they've changed in relation to the conversation. The dev can bring any of those files into their project and the IDE will keep a link to which version of the LLM generated file is in place or if the dev has made changes. If the dev makes changes, the file is automatically pushed to the LLM files window and the LLM sees those changes and adds them to the "conversation".
The collaboration continually has "why" answers for every change.
And all of this without anyone digging into models, python, or RAG integrations.
You could build this now, using gpt-4 (or any of the top few models) and a whole bunch of surrounding systems. It would be difficult to pull off, but there is not technology change required.
If you build it you'll need to be digging into models, python and various pieces of "RAG" stuff, but your users wouldn't need to know anything about it.
If you build it you'll need to be digging into models, python and various pieces of "RAG" stuff, but your users wouldn't need to know anything about it.
Regardless of whether the data is actually being used to train an LLM, as long as it's going over the network to an LLM provider, there's the possibility that it will be used. Or exfiltrated from the provider's servers and sold on the dark web. Or a million other things that can go wrong when you provide a 3rd party access to your personal data.
If LLMs are actually here to stay, then we need to keep shrinking the inferencing costs to the point that everyone can run it on the client, and avoid all of these problems at once...
If LLMs are actually here to stay, then we need to keep shrinking the inferencing costs to the point that everyone can run it on the client, and avoid all of these problems at once...
I chat a lot with ChatGPT-4o, usually endless everyday questions like how to replace the screened washer in a kitchen faucet supply line.
It stunned me recently by remembering I had an argon tank, something I had only mentioned in a thread days earlier.
I asked it to recall which conversations these were, for sharing on HN. That conversation was comically stupid (REALLY bad, like "Perplexity" bad) and went nowhere.
It stunned me recently by remembering I had an argon tank, something I had only mentioned in a thread days earlier.
I asked it to recall which conversations these were, for sharing on HN. That conversation was comically stupid (REALLY bad, like "Perplexity" bad) and went nowhere.
OpenAI could of course send all your chat history to a DB and then use that on a future training round. Some of it is free RLHF data that needs a bit of cleaning up. Because the user side of the conversation has clues about whether the answer was correct.
Also are we that far from fine tuning in real time? Maybe next year?
I think while the current model might be what he says the model in 2025 could be vastly different.
Also are we that far from fine tuning in real time? Maybe next year?
I think while the current model might be what he says the model in 2025 could be vastly different.
The LLMs don't learn during the chat, but what you type into them is being collected, the same as, for instance, your Google searches.
The article is well written. It is precisely because there is no memory that frameworks like langchain exist. If a way to implement LLM with built-in memory capabilities can be found, I feel it will change the game rules of the entire large model market.
Yeah, the difference between "train on this data" and "these interactions might be collected and aggregated across sessions to be included in a future training dataset" is a difficult one to message to most people in software, let alone consumers without that background. By the time you're done explaining how most data is largely garbage, labeling and curating data is difficult and time-consuming, and updates may make things worse such that a rollback is forced, etc. you're up to several paragraphs of explanation and most people won't read that.
If you're worried that what you're putting into the text box might be used to train the AI, I don't see how any of this matters. There's no transparency (or control) on whether your specific input is being used for training or not, so the only safe assumption is that it will be used.
This is what I mean when I talk about the AI trust crisis.
Plenty of AI vendors will swear that they don't train on input to their models. People straight up don't believe them.
Plenty of AI vendors will swear that they don't train on input to their models. People straight up don't believe them.
The economic incentives are too stacked. You see companies like reddit signing contracts to sell their user generated data to AI companies[1]. If OpenAI is willing to pay (probably a large sum) for reddit's data, why would they refrain from exploiting data they're already getting for "free"? This also feels like a rerun of the advertising economy's development and how tracking and data collection became more invasive and more common over time.
[1] https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/openai-strikes-deal-br...
[1] https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/openai-strikes-deal-br...
There's several reasons why this may be:
1. Most of the data might be junk, and so it's just not worth it
2. They want paying customers, paying customers don't want this, so they don't offer it for paying customers
3. It's really, really hard to annotate data effectively at that scale. The reason why Reddit data is being bought is because it's effectively pre-annotated. Most users don't follow up with chat responses to give feedback. But people absolutely provide answers and upvotes on forums.
1. Most of the data might be junk, and so it's just not worth it
2. They want paying customers, paying customers don't want this, so they don't offer it for paying customers
3. It's really, really hard to annotate data effectively at that scale. The reason why Reddit data is being bought is because it's effectively pre-annotated. Most users don't follow up with chat responses to give feedback. But people absolutely provide answers and upvotes on forums.
It’s like the popcorn button on a microwave. For it to work properly your microwave needs a humidity sensor. Cheap microwaves don’t, but they still include a popcorn button.
As a result, no one trusts the popcorn button, even if it works.
As a result, no one trusts the popcorn button, even if it works.
There’s an opt-out: https://www.groovypost.com/howto/opt-out-your-data-on-chatgp...
Of course, there’s no real way to know if it’s respected or not.
Of course, there’s no real way to know if it’s respected or not.
Seems like OpenAI needs more data
>All ChatGPT Free users can now use browse, vision, data analysis, file uploads, and GPTs
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40524031
>All ChatGPT Free users can now use browse, vision, data analysis, file uploads, and GPTs
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40524031
Wow, I figured this would have been the most basic level of common knowledge for LLM end-users by this point. I guess there is still a surprising amount of people out there who haven't jumped on the bandwagon.
Anyone know if there is a LM Studio style tool for training models?
I dunno. Nowadays you can store the the conversation's history and use different RAG methods to pull relevant pieces into the LLM's context.
Sometimes ChatGPT will ask me which response I like better. That is almost certainly used for something like DPO.
A 'remember everything I say' model would actually be fantastic if ran locally.
I’ve never seen anyone believe the straw man that the author seems to think people believe. People are rightly concerned about their data being trained on for the very real concerns which the author later acknowledges are legitimate risks.
I was surprised when I found out people believe this too. Ask around some more, it's not the kind of thing that comes up in conversation.
[deleted]
I took Simon's post and pasted it into two different ChatGPT 4o windows. In one, I put "what's wrong with this post, especially with the way it's written?". In the other, I put "what's really great about this post and what does it do well?".
Both sessions worked toward those implied goals. The one where I asked what was wrong indicated long-winded sentences, redundancy, lack of clear structure, and focus issues. Sorry, Simon!
The one where I asked what was good about the post indicated clarity around misconceptions, good explanations of training, consistent theme, clear sections, logical progression, and focused arguments. I tend to agree with this one more than the other, but clearly the two are conflicted.
So, what's my point?
My point is that AI/LLMs interactions are driven by the human's intent during the interaction. It is literally our own history and training that brings the stateless function responses to where they arrive. Yes, facts and whatnot matter in the training data, and the history, if there is one, but the output is very much dependent on the user.
If we think about this more, it's clear that training data does matter, but likely doesn't matter as much as we think it does. It's probably just as equally important to consider the historic data, and the data coming in from RAG/search processes, as making as big of an impact on the output.
Both sessions worked toward those implied goals. The one where I asked what was wrong indicated long-winded sentences, redundancy, lack of clear structure, and focus issues. Sorry, Simon!
The one where I asked what was good about the post indicated clarity around misconceptions, good explanations of training, consistent theme, clear sections, logical progression, and focused arguments. I tend to agree with this one more than the other, but clearly the two are conflicted.
So, what's my point?
My point is that AI/LLMs interactions are driven by the human's intent during the interaction. It is literally our own history and training that brings the stateless function responses to where they arrive. Yes, facts and whatnot matter in the training data, and the history, if there is one, but the output is very much dependent on the user.
If we think about this more, it's clear that training data does matter, but likely doesn't matter as much as we think it does. It's probably just as equally important to consider the historic data, and the data coming in from RAG/search processes, as making as big of an impact on the output.
It's at least sometimes a "Clever Hans" effect, or an "ELIZA" effect.
These models have been RLHFed to just go along and agree with whatever the user asks for, even if the user doesn't realize what's going on. This is a bit of a cheap trick- of course users will find something more intelligent if it agrees with them. When models start arguing back you get stuff like early Bing Chat going totally deranged.
These models have been RLHFed to just go along and agree with whatever the user asks for, even if the user doesn't realize what's going on. This is a bit of a cheap trick- of course users will find something more intelligent if it agrees with them. When models start arguing back you get stuff like early Bing Chat going totally deranged.
Wow. Water is wet. The sky is blue. FFNN models don't update their weights during inference.
Who doesn't already know this?
Who doesn't already know this?
How did they take this long to figure it out? I would have expected this article when ChatGPT first came out.
Simon has been working on this technology for a while, and is fairly prolific about writing about it. It's more likely that it didn't "take long" for Simon to figure it out, but more that it was come to be realized that others had misconceptions about how it worked, thus the usefulness of posting about it presented itself.
Things usually aren't black and white, unless of course they are bits...
Things usually aren't black and white, unless of course they are bits...
Right; I've understood this since ChatGPT first launched, but I've only recently understood how common and damaging the misconception about it is.
Maybe they thought the users would understand how LLMs get trained.
Seems that's not the case and some think the model could br trained instantly by their input instead of much later when a good amount of new training data is collected.
Seems that's not the case and some think the model could br trained instantly by their input instead of much later when a good amount of new training data is collected.
In part I suspect that's down to prompting, which is somewhat obscured (on purpose) from most users.
"Prompts" use symbols within the conversation that's gone before, along with hidden prompting by the organisation that controls access to an LLM, as a part of the prompt. So when you ask, 'do you remember what I said about donuts' the LLM can answer -- it doesn't remember, but that's [an obscured] part of the current prompt issued to the LLM.
It's not too surprising users are confused when purposeful deception is part of standard practice.
I can ask ChatGPT what my favourite topics are and it gives an answer ...
"Prompts" use symbols within the conversation that's gone before, along with hidden prompting by the organisation that controls access to an LLM, as a part of the prompt. So when you ask, 'do you remember what I said about donuts' the LLM can answer -- it doesn't remember, but that's [an obscured] part of the current prompt issued to the LLM.
It's not too surprising users are confused when purposeful deception is part of standard practice.
I can ask ChatGPT what my favourite topics are and it gives an answer ...
Do you write an explainer the first time you figure out something?
It's like the bell curve meme - the person who knows nothing "This system is going to learn from me", the person in the middle "The system only learns from the training data" and the genius "This system is going to learn from me".
No one is re-assured that the AI only learns from you with a 6 month lag.