US Postal Service delays threaten to disrupt election voting, officials say(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
US Postal Service delays threaten to disrupt election voting, officials say
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/11/usps-mail-election-ballots-voting
43 comments
We can't even get photo ID required to vote for federal office, despite the law requiring it for other stuff that is a right ascribed merely to people ( guns ) unlike voting which is expressly protected for citizens ( although non-citizens could vote for local office if law allows it like in American samoa.)
Exactly. This should be basic stuff.
After landing on the moon we shouldn’t be bickering and arguing who voted and who didn’t, and if there was fraud or not.
IDs should be free and available to every voter. There should be a federal voting holiday, because it’s an important event.
After landing on the moon we shouldn’t be bickering and arguing who voted and who didn’t, and if there was fraud or not.
IDs should be free and available to every voter. There should be a federal voting holiday, because it’s an important event.
If you had voted before you would already know they ask for your ID at the polls already. There is no problem identifying voters. It’s some made up shit by Republicans so they can come up with yet another form of ID to disqualify people arbitrarily. I don’t want to have to carry even more forms of ID to satisfy some bureaucrat.
Even if they ask for ID at the polls (they don't where I live), you could vote by mail without ID.
That's not the same kind of problem. Photo ID requirements restrict voting access, voting holiday expands it.
I think they are in the general category of issues we as a country like to argue and bicker about before and after elections. The rest of the world is laughing at us basically not knowing how to tie our shoes.
We definitely have enough resources to give everyone free IDs and record if they voted. We can even afford free public transportation for that day. We can afford not working one extra day a year.
We definitely have enough resources to give everyone free IDs and record if they voted. We can even afford free public transportation for that day. We can afford not working one extra day a year.
The discussion around voter ID laws never actually revolves around expanding access to ID cards. Instead it is about restricting access to legal voters who don’t have ID, under the guise of avoiding voter fraud, a thing that is so rare as to be generally insignificant.
https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research-and-impact/policy-initiat...
https://gspp.berkeley.edu/research-and-impact/policy-initiat...
> The discussion around voter ID laws never actually revolves around expanding access to ID cards.
That’s what the studies linked seem to focus on? About half of them are inconclusive. The first one had data errors.
That’s why issuing free cards should solve the problem. India with a much larger population with more disadvantaged people solved it but here we are still arguing about it.
That’s what the studies linked seem to focus on? About half of them are inconclusive. The first one had data errors.
That’s why issuing free cards should solve the problem. India with a much larger population with more disadvantaged people solved it but here we are still arguing about it.
What problem? Not fraud, if there's no statistically significant amount of fraud happening. [1] The only people who want to argue about it are doing it to sow doubt in a remarkably robust system.
The problem they're trying to solve is ballot access by people who won't vote with them. Here in Texas, the AG is suing any organization who's trying to register voters in liberal areas. [2]
[1] https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/ with context by https://www.brookings.edu/articles/widespread-election-fraud... [2] https://www.texastribune.org/2024/09/06/texas-ken-paxton-tra...
The problem they're trying to solve is ballot access by people who won't vote with them. Here in Texas, the AG is suing any organization who's trying to register voters in liberal areas. [2]
[1] https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/ with context by https://www.brookings.edu/articles/widespread-election-fraud... [2] https://www.texastribune.org/2024/09/06/texas-ken-paxton-tra...
I agree, it's cheap and easy enough to solve the issue, and if the Republican talking point bothers you so much, it shouldn't be too hard to prove it's not a problem by introducing mandatory free ID for all.
Everytime I go vote, they take my ID and give me a ballot. Pretty sure voting identification is already working. This is a fake issue.
It depends on the state. Here in NC ID is not required to vote, and when they tried to pass a law requiring it, there was a huge backlash.
[deleted]
Sounds like it’s too unpopular for national let alone state policy.
So which is it, a fake issue (ID already required to vote), or ID isn’t actually required, but requiring ID is too unpopular so it shouldn’t be done?
Not sure how you think they are mutually exclusive in any way. It's all three: A) a fake issue that our current ID is not sufficient, because B) a new source of ID isn't actually required as studies show, and C) requiring a new source of ID is too unpopular.
I mail products every day through USPS just like a million other businesses. We resend about 1/25 packages every single day due to it being indefinitely delayed beyond some reasonable time line. We just eat the loss and move on, USPS is absolute disaster right now. I didn't even think about voting mail in ballots. That is going to be a major problem if the vote is close.
I have had enough problems with USPS, both sending and receiving, that I no longer rely on them, and I'm just an average person who doesn't use USPS much. Whether it's first-class, certified mail, or priority mail with tracking–they all get lost at higher than acceptable rates. (Maybe domestic registered mail is the last reliable option.)
When a mail piece gets stuck or lost, there's no way to get help. USPS staff is generally unhelpful. It's a disaster.
When a mail piece gets stuck or lost, there's no way to get help. USPS staff is generally unhelpful. It's a disaster.
> We resend about 1/25 packages every single day due to it being indefinitely delayed beyond some reasonable time line.
I've found USPS to be like the VA. They're excellent for us (W.Cent.FL). Other regions have horror stories.
Most of my USPS stories are very positive. The 1 or 2 protracted issues were resolved well - even if the gears ground somewhat slowly.
One of my clients is a web retailer. I grabbed a quick look at their shipment notifications back to June and didn't spot any USPS delivery issues. It's all small parcels so maybe that's a factor.
I've found USPS to be like the VA. They're excellent for us (W.Cent.FL). Other regions have horror stories.
Most of my USPS stories are very positive. The 1 or 2 protracted issues were resolved well - even if the gears ground somewhat slowly.
One of my clients is a web retailer. I grabbed a quick look at their shipment notifications back to June and didn't spot any USPS delivery issues. It's all small parcels so maybe that's a factor.
Most of it is because of Atlanta district. Palmetto is a major crisis that everyone is just ignoring. Prior to this year we never had much issues at all. Thousands of packages with maybe 1 missing because it was stolen after delivery. The problem now is all of our missed packages are sitting in a bin at palmetto indefinitely pushed into a corner. DeJoy needs to be fired but no one wants to do their job I guess.
My utility bills seem to arrive without issue.
In my suburban town of ~40,000 people, we share stories on our community Facebook group of going days without receiving mail and tracking packages stuck at our local post office that go undelivered for days. I call it "postal workers working from home".
I suspect the primary issue is that there are simply way less people willing to work as letter carriers. The pay has not scaled and you're working long hours, Monday through Saturday. Not exactly a dream job.
I suspect the primary issue is that there are simply way less people willing to work as letter carriers. The pay has not scaled and you're working long hours, Monday through Saturday. Not exactly a dream job.
> The pay has not scaled and you're working long hours, Monday through Saturday. Not exactly a dream job.
This describes my federal job. I wonder how many other federal jobs are like this. My coworkers used to put up with the stress/schedule/etc, but now the pay does not outweigh the cons. I foresee the industry I'm working in, becoming a shitshow; I wonder what other industries will follow suit.
This describes my federal job. I wonder how many other federal jobs are like this. My coworkers used to put up with the stress/schedule/etc, but now the pay does not outweigh the cons. I foresee the industry I'm working in, becoming a shitshow; I wonder what other industries will follow suit.
I remember being homeless and wanting to apply as a USPS mail sorter. There was a big warning on the application that inaccuracies were a felony. I don't have a great memory of all my job and life history so I decided a was better off homeless than a homeless felon. I wonder how many people that keeps away.
> I suspect the primary issue is that there are simply way less people willing to work as letter carriers.
A family member of mine works for the post office in their city. They don't have trouble hiring for any positions. There is a long waiting list that takes months to get through to be given a chance at the bottom of the totem pole. The various postal unions give the jobs good benefits, pay, hours, etc. Carriers specifically are highly sought-after positions that can set you up for life.
It's not a matter of not being able to find people. it's not willing to hire more people. I would be very surprised if the post office in your town is trying to hire people, but nobody is willing to work. It's a great job, and people line up to work there.
A family member of mine works for the post office in their city. They don't have trouble hiring for any positions. There is a long waiting list that takes months to get through to be given a chance at the bottom of the totem pole. The various postal unions give the jobs good benefits, pay, hours, etc. Carriers specifically are highly sought-after positions that can set you up for life.
It's not a matter of not being able to find people. it's not willing to hire more people. I would be very surprised if the post office in your town is trying to hire people, but nobody is willing to work. It's a great job, and people line up to work there.
How the hell is Louis DeJoy still the Postmaster General?
You'll have to ask the Board of Governors of the USPS. DeJoy answers to them.
DeJoy, besides being Postmaster General and CEO of the USPS, also appears to be a member of the board of governors. I bet his friends on the board think he's doing a fine job.
This is intentional on DeJoy's part and a big part of why he was appointed.
So what's Biden's excuse for keeping him? He's had almost four years to find someone else (or more specifically to appoint board governors who will.)
Not appointed by the president. So, there’s no legal way to do that directly.
Really? Who does appoint the governors, then?
We thought there was no legal way to do a lot of things that Trump did, yet he did them anyway. Turns out a lot of things we thought were "laws" were either regulations subject to repeal or modification by executive order, or just "guidelines" or "gentlemens' agreements" that were always open to abuse by anyone willing to cast tradition aside for the sake of expediency. It's ironic that only the conservatives are willing to do that these days.
We thought there was no legal way to do a lot of things that Trump did, yet he did them anyway. Turns out a lot of things we thought were "laws" were either regulations subject to repeal or modification by executive order, or just "guidelines" or "gentlemens' agreements" that were always open to abuse by anyone willing to cast tradition aside for the sake of expediency. It's ironic that only the conservatives are willing to do that these days.
This is an excellent question! I believe Biden has had time to change the USPS Board of Governors but somehow DeJoy is still in place.
Great, and then there will be no way to certify or validate the chain of custody when they're counted. This all adds to people not trusting elections, and it's crazy this isn't top priority.
So how do other States handle this? I get a text message when my ballot is marked as received and counted, and the ballot comes with tear-off receipts that I retain until the ballot is counted. Never had an issue with my ballot not being counted though.
For reference I got this message two days after Super Tuesday 2024, two days after the November 8th election in 2022, and two days after the Summer 2022 elections. There’s also a website I can check to see if my ballots were Accepted or not going all the way back to the 2016 General Election.
Why not just do that?
For reference I got this message two days after Super Tuesday 2024, two days after the November 8th election in 2022, and two days after the Summer 2022 elections. There’s also a website I can check to see if my ballots were Accepted or not going all the way back to the 2016 General Election.
Why not just do that?
I don't know all the details but I think the issue is not so much people confirming their own vote as much as states validating all the votes. Many states have provisional ballots and I'm not sure how those are checked to be valid. As far as mail-in ballots, what if you vote twice once with the mail-in ballot and again in-person? I don't think that gets checked before announcing results, and challenging the results is not straight forward, very contentious and political for no reason. All states should have immediate provable results with redundancy checks.
I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that this isn’t checked, but States have about a month to certify results under the laws set by Congress, well technically for Presidential elections they have to have them certified six days before the Electoral College is due to meet and for their own elections States fix their own certification deadlines.
Regarding provisional ballots, I have yet to see any evidence that double-counting is an issue, and if you cast one, there’s a toll line you can call per the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to check on your ballot. From my own State’s Secretary of State website (https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/provisiona...):
> The Help America Vote Act of 2002 (HAVA) requires each state or local elections official to establish a "Free Access System," such as a toll-free telephone number for voters to call or an Internet website that voters can access free of charge, to ascertain if they voted a provisional ballot at the polls, whether or not their vote was counted, and, if it was not counted, the reason why it was not counted.
Other than having to verify the ballot cast is valid in the county, provisional ballots are just counted during the canvassing process.
> and challenging the results is not straight forward, very contentious and political for no reason.
Election night lawsuits happen all across the country any time a campaign wants to challenge any election irregularities they come across. Yeah it’s political, but it’s also lawful and courts are setup to accept these challenges, often under an expedited process. This is as much a cornerstone of American democracy as the secret ballot, I wouldn’t get worked up about it like some do.
> All states should have immediate provable results with redundancy checks.
This would be nice but balancing it with the secret ballot and with the general distrust people have to rely entirely on computers which can be compromised and thus a need to retain the human accountability factor, we’re not there yet. Maybe someday.
My State has some more information on its own process here: https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/upcoming-elections/vote-cou...
However I wanted to highlight the following three paragraphs for you:
> Election results posted on Election Night are semi-official results based on the in-person ballots cast at voting locations on Election Day, any early voted ballots cast in person prior to Election Day, and any vote-by-mail ballots received and processed prior to Election Day.
> The complete tally of votes is never finished on Election Night as vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day and received within seven days after the election, as well as any provisional ballots cast, must still be counted. These ballots are always counted during the official canvass period in the 30 days after Election Day.
> While media outlets and others may “call” an election contest, or candidates may “concede” to their opponent, on Election Night or the in days following, these calls and concessions are based on the semi-official results and not the final election results. The election results are never final until the Secretary of State has compiled the official statewide results after all county elections officials have reported their official canvass of the votes.
I feel like people just kind of forget that the election is never technically finished on election night itself. While there’s a lot of emphasis on calling it for one candidate or another and the media usually gets it right on the night of the election, their calls are not the actual results, they’re the presumed the results with available information.
Regarding provisional ballots, I have yet to see any evidence that double-counting is an issue, and if you cast one, there’s a toll line you can call per the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to check on your ballot. From my own State’s Secretary of State website (https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/provisiona...):
> The Help America Vote Act of 2002 (HAVA) requires each state or local elections official to establish a "Free Access System," such as a toll-free telephone number for voters to call or an Internet website that voters can access free of charge, to ascertain if they voted a provisional ballot at the polls, whether or not their vote was counted, and, if it was not counted, the reason why it was not counted.
Other than having to verify the ballot cast is valid in the county, provisional ballots are just counted during the canvassing process.
> and challenging the results is not straight forward, very contentious and political for no reason.
Election night lawsuits happen all across the country any time a campaign wants to challenge any election irregularities they come across. Yeah it’s political, but it’s also lawful and courts are setup to accept these challenges, often under an expedited process. This is as much a cornerstone of American democracy as the secret ballot, I wouldn’t get worked up about it like some do.
> All states should have immediate provable results with redundancy checks.
This would be nice but balancing it with the secret ballot and with the general distrust people have to rely entirely on computers which can be compromised and thus a need to retain the human accountability factor, we’re not there yet. Maybe someday.
My State has some more information on its own process here: https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/upcoming-elections/vote-cou...
However I wanted to highlight the following three paragraphs for you:
> Election results posted on Election Night are semi-official results based on the in-person ballots cast at voting locations on Election Day, any early voted ballots cast in person prior to Election Day, and any vote-by-mail ballots received and processed prior to Election Day.
> The complete tally of votes is never finished on Election Night as vote-by-mail ballots postmarked on or before Election Day and received within seven days after the election, as well as any provisional ballots cast, must still be counted. These ballots are always counted during the official canvass period in the 30 days after Election Day.
> While media outlets and others may “call” an election contest, or candidates may “concede” to their opponent, on Election Night or the in days following, these calls and concessions are based on the semi-official results and not the final election results. The election results are never final until the Secretary of State has compiled the official statewide results after all county elections officials have reported their official canvass of the votes.
I feel like people just kind of forget that the election is never technically finished on election night itself. While there’s a lot of emphasis on calling it for one candidate or another and the media usually gets it right on the night of the election, their calls are not the actual results, they’re the presumed the results with available information.
Right, I think you're basically highlighting what I'm trying to say. The fact that election results are not official until potentially a month later, is a problem.
> These ballots are always counted during the official canvass period in the 30 days after Election Day.
How is this not an issue when it comes to trusting an election? If elections come down to a few thousand votes (per swing state), then even a small margin of error has a chance of casting huge amounts of doubt on who the real winner is. This already happened in 2000, and again in 2020, yet somehow it doesn't seem like a priority issue.
We can talk about all the technicalities but at the end of the day it's about reassuring the entire population that the votes are legitimate and valid. This is more than just having a process. That process has to be efficient, and extending the official results for weeks and months does not accomplish that. You don't have to be cynical to see that the more inefficient the counting is, the less trust there is in the election results, and it all contributes to political turmoil and civil unrest.
> These ballots are always counted during the official canvass period in the 30 days after Election Day.
How is this not an issue when it comes to trusting an election? If elections come down to a few thousand votes (per swing state), then even a small margin of error has a chance of casting huge amounts of doubt on who the real winner is. This already happened in 2000, and again in 2020, yet somehow it doesn't seem like a priority issue.
We can talk about all the technicalities but at the end of the day it's about reassuring the entire population that the votes are legitimate and valid. This is more than just having a process. That process has to be efficient, and extending the official results for weeks and months does not accomplish that. You don't have to be cynical to see that the more inefficient the counting is, the less trust there is in the election results, and it all contributes to political turmoil and civil unrest.
It’s better to be accurate than fast. Fast would be nice too, but Federal, State and local elections occur simultaneously with all their various offices and ballot initiatives. Elections occur a full two months before the soonest anyone new is sworn into office, so we have the luxury of time if any serious discrepancies occur, as in 2000. Note that after 2000, Florida got really really good at managing their elections, so it’s not been a recurring issue there either.
But hey, if we were to massively cut down on the number of elected positions, force political parties to spend their own money running their own primaries and eliminate ballot initiatives, that would also make elections more efficient. I’d like that.
But hey, if we were to massively cut down on the number of elected positions, force political parties to spend their own money running their own primaries and eliminate ballot initiatives, that would also make elections more efficient. I’d like that.
Great stuff.
Beyond the obviously concerning impact in the US domestically, I’m mail voting in my own country’s elections, and this year will probably mark the second election I’ll miss because of the USPS’s current state.
Beyond the obviously concerning impact in the US domestically, I’m mail voting in my own country’s elections, and this year will probably mark the second election I’ll miss because of the USPS’s current state.
We claim voting is so important yet we can’t seem to be able to fix aspects of it that other, more resource constrained countries managed.