I Deleted My Steam Account After 20 Years(gist.github.com)
gist.github.com
I Deleted My Steam Account After 20 Years
https://gist.github.com/Kaldaien/c66bf3dca62a5ac63785714f686e60ad
87 comments
Can you give an example of a feature like that which would incentivize you to buy at a store if the feature was required as opposed to being optional?
...because running applications from untrusted sources is a _really_ bad idea?
For those who don't know, Kaldaien is a prolific modder of PC games, a well known and frequently controversial figure. He has created QoL patches and fixes for various games that were released but 'ignored' by their publishers afterwards. PCGW reference: https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/List_of_games_compatible_w...
Thanks for the information, I didn’t know it.
>Games you purchased on a Windows 98 machine later had their system requirements bumped up to Windows XP, then to Windows 7, then to Windows 10...
>Because the Steam client patches itself and because Valve was lying about contingency plans, their DRM prevents running Windows 98-era games on original hardware.
What about Linux? Steam has supported Linux since 2013, and is notably the only big store that does. Personally, I don't even see the other stores as competition since they don't even let you install them from my OS.
>Because the Steam client patches itself and because Valve was lying about contingency plans, their DRM prevents running Windows 98-era games on original hardware.
What about Linux? Steam has supported Linux since 2013, and is notably the only big store that does. Personally, I don't even see the other stores as competition since they don't even let you install them from my OS.
> What about Linux? Steam has supported Linux since 2013, and is notably the only big store that does.
Steam is a big contributor to making games run on Linux but it's not some magical sauce unique to Steam. Unless you're talking about the store client software itself having better support, I haven't used any of the first party store clients on Linux. My GOG games run fine on Linux with Heroic Launcher.
But the bigger issue for me was when I bought older games from the Steam store only to discover that they didn't run properly or at all on Windows 10 despite the statement that they do. I bought them again from GOG who actually patched them to work. Supporting the OS I bought the games for should be guaranteed unconditionally for as long as I own the game. Support for additional OSes, especially when it's best effort, is just a bonus not a replacement.
Steam is a big contributor to making games run on Linux but it's not some magical sauce unique to Steam. Unless you're talking about the store client software itself having better support, I haven't used any of the first party store clients on Linux. My GOG games run fine on Linux with Heroic Launcher.
But the bigger issue for me was when I bought older games from the Steam store only to discover that they didn't run properly or at all on Windows 10 despite the statement that they do. I bought them again from GOG who actually patched them to work. Supporting the OS I bought the games for should be guaranteed unconditionally for as long as I own the game. Support for additional OSes, especially when it's best effort, is just a bonus not a replacement.
I'm talking about his complaint that Steam does not have any contingency plans for running games on old hardware due to them not supporting old versions of Windows. You can install Linux on that hardware, so I'd say that's a good enough contingency plan.
* Assuming that game is supported on Linux
While compatibility has improved a lot, it's difficult to argue it's on par with a game on as-released hardware + OS.
There will always be gaps or altered functionality in compatibility.
And unfortunately, because of the recency bias of popularity, there won't be large enough player bases to justify corporate fixes.
It needs to be a priority despite finances (e.g. GoG) or community driven (e.g. Kaldaien and the moding community).
And it seems fair for the latter to be pissed off when Valve intentionally creates extra work for them, because either Valve doesn't care or it makes business sense for them.
And if nobody cares... troublesome games just disappear. Which seems tragic.
While compatibility has improved a lot, it's difficult to argue it's on par with a game on as-released hardware + OS.
There will always be gaps or altered functionality in compatibility.
And unfortunately, because of the recency bias of popularity, there won't be large enough player bases to justify corporate fixes.
It needs to be a priority despite finances (e.g. GoG) or community driven (e.g. Kaldaien and the moding community).
And it seems fair for the latter to be pissed off when Valve intentionally creates extra work for them, because either Valve doesn't care or it makes business sense for them.
And if nobody cares... troublesome games just disappear. Which seems tragic.
> While compatibility has improved a lot, it's difficult to argue it's on par with a game on as-released hardware + OS.
Agreed, but at this point Wine is a better Win32 implementation than Win32. You typically have more success running old programs under Wine than under new versions of Windows.
Agreed, but at this point Wine is a better Win32 implementation than Win32. You typically have more success running old programs under Wine than under new versions of Windows.
Granted! But at some point you run into the console emulation problem: random piece of software used undefined-behavior dependent quirk of hardware / OS / libraries, that was fixed in emulation.
Happens less in PC, because compute power progression, but I wouldn't dare say there aren't any such programs out there.
Happens less in PC, because compute power progression, but I wouldn't dare say there aren't any such programs out there.
I've collected so many free games on the Epic store, but almost never play any of them due to issues with them running on the SteamDeck. With some persuasion they can be made to work, but I don't want to be tinkering when I just want to play a game for 5-10 minutes.
Apart from multiplayer games with anti-cheat I’ve had no real problems running Epic or GoG games on Steam Deck via Heroic Launcher. In fact, SD is helping me work through my free Epic games backlog.
The most problematic was Deathloop, which flashed up some messages about it being an unsupported APU but ultimately worked fine. Occasionally some games crash after waking from a suspend.
The most problematic was Deathloop, which flashed up some messages about it being an unsupported APU but ultimately worked fine. Occasionally some games crash after waking from a suspend.
How's the experience of playing mouse centric games (like Civilization, Factorio and other strategy games, for instance) on the Steam Deck?
The pads work ok, they work more like a thumb ball than a track pad, but it’s no substitute for a mouse. You can just use a Bluetooth mouse, of course.
A bigger issue is the size and resolution of the screen. Many games of this type assume at least 1080p.
A bigger issue is the size and resolution of the screen. Many games of this type assume at least 1080p.
Pardon my ignorance... So people actually connect mice and keyboards to the deck? How does that work in terms of playing position? I thought the deck is mostly targeted towards mobile players who will have it on a bed, chair etc where there won't be any surfaces for using a mouse or other peripherals.
SO you can do what I'm currently doing because I'm in the middle of moving countries and my desktop isnt here!
I have a monitor i'm borrowing from work, a mouse, keyboard, and the steamdeck Dock. And I just treat it like a desktop. You can still easily use steam big picture mode. OR you can boot to desktop, as the Steamdeck is just a Arch linux install. Its honestly amazing.
I have a monitor i'm borrowing from work, a mouse, keyboard, and the steamdeck Dock. And I just treat it like a desktop. You can still easily use steam big picture mode. OR you can boot to desktop, as the Steamdeck is just a Arch linux install. Its honestly amazing.
Like the other poster, I use the SD for convenience, snatching 10 minutes of gameplay wherever I am and whenever I have time, and that means not plugging anything in.
But the SD is just a PC in a handheld form factor. You can plug in a dock, external monitor and other peripherals, only removing it when travelling, if that suits you.
But the SD is just a PC in a handheld form factor. You can plug in a dock, external monitor and other peripherals, only removing it when travelling, if that suits you.
5-10m? Sounds more akin to a phone/mobile game.
The sheer convenience of the SteamDeck is what has brought me back into gaming. It's so easy to pick it up whilst cooking etc. and play a few minutes of Blue Prince - the power button pause/resume is such a killer feature. (Also, 5-10 minutes is enough time for a CyberPunk 2077 mission)
I must admit that the Steam client is quite slow and bloated. Having used it for many years, I often avoid launching it. Epic has replicated these same issues. Consequently, I end up using GOG instead.
Slow, multi-window and focus stealing. Every single window for steam steals the focus, so if startup takes a minute, go grab a coffee or something as anything else will be unusable.
Steam is your typical web-app-in-a-window.
Interestingly, the Epic store is not, or rather it is but it uses Unreal to render it (or at least the Slate UI component of it). On my laptop it uses the discrete GPU to render instead of the integrated one, which has an impact on power use and battery life.
Interestingly, the Epic store is not, or rather it is but it uses Unreal to render it (or at least the Slate UI component of it). On my laptop it uses the discrete GPU to render instead of the integrated one, which has an impact on power use and battery life.
The Steam client is so bloated at the point it takes 40% of my computer's resources, leaving little to no resources for the actual game I want to play, and thus making the gameplay experience feel worse than it should. That is one of the reasons I would pirate or try to find a workaround to download the games from Steam and run them outside.
Bloated is one word for it. The difference in the battery life of my MacBook when Steam is running (and doing nothing) versus Steam not running is incredible, it’s the difference between my battery sometimes lasting one working day and comfortably lasting two.
If you use an Arm mac, the mainline release is still using Rosetta. You can switch to the beta release which improves battery life and performance.
The client is awful on MacOS. It’s even more power hungry and slower than XCode.
its running Chromium under the hood, its like Electron on steroids
I think most of the UI is native, with web views shoved into various corners. I think the application might still be 32bit, but I'm not sure as I run it as a Flatpak.
The web views are using Chromium engine for sure, because you see it in the underlying processes.
It's true that Steam is a DRMed app store, and that means you are as owner of your game as in any other DRMed app store, but they prove regularly they are for the moment the most consumer friendly DRMed app store. They support linux, they support macos, they open their steam deck, they open their steamos beyond what is required legally, and many I don't remember.
GOG is great because of they are DRM-free app store but there are also challenges: no linux client, no support for the steam deck, etc..
There are some insane takes also: nobody care that windows 98 is not supported anymore, steam is no more responsible for the fragmentation than any others distributors, Ubisoft+, EA Access (and maybe Game Pass) are much worse than Steam
GOG is great because of they are DRM-free app store but there are also challenges: no linux client, no support for the steam deck, etc..
There are some insane takes also: nobody care that windows 98 is not supported anymore, steam is no more responsible for the fragmentation than any others distributors, Ubisoft+, EA Access (and maybe Game Pass) are much worse than Steam
> I buy games from Epic Games Store, Microsoft Store and GOG precisely because those stores have no bloated features unrelated to DRM crammed down your throat.
Absolutely unhinged opinion.
Absolutely unhinged opinion.
Yeah, I have a bunch of free games on the Epic store, because they were giving them out. I still buy them on Steam because the Epic launcher is just so awful.
But why? What specifically is awful about it compared to Steam?
Steam has Comprehensive library management with categories, tags, and collections, Built-in screenshot/video capture and sharing, Steam Workshop for mods and user-generated content, Robust review system, Steam Cloud saves with reliable sync, Family sharing and parental controls, Active discussion forums for each game, Stable, well-tested interface refined over 20+ years, Offline mode that actually works reliably, Big Picture mode for TV/controller use3
Epic: Basic library management, No user reviews system, Missing social features like forums, No mod support integration, Inconsistent cloud save functionality, Aggressive exclusive deals that remove games from other platforms, Perceived as "buying" market share rather than earning it, Heavy reliance on free games to attract users, Slower, less responsive launcher, More frequent bugs and crashes, Limited offline functionality Fewer accessibility options, No linux support and aggressive stance against free software in general.
Epic: Basic library management, No user reviews system, Missing social features like forums, No mod support integration, Inconsistent cloud save functionality, Aggressive exclusive deals that remove games from other platforms, Perceived as "buying" market share rather than earning it, Heavy reliance on free games to attract users, Slower, less responsive launcher, More frequent bugs and crashes, Limited offline functionality Fewer accessibility options, No linux support and aggressive stance against free software in general.
The only store that really stands out in that list is GOG so I don't really see it appropriately bundled with the others in the article. It's the one store with no DRM, you own the game. And you'll own it when the current owner/CEO dies and is replaced by a rent seeking MBA who charges you $10/mo to maintain access to the library of games you already "own" (for those who don't already do that).
For the rest of the stores some are better than others but at the end of the day they're "better features" rather than fundamentally better, like GOG is. Because ultimately what I'm doing is buying a game, not a forum or a review (as useful as those are), and definitely not renting a game.
For the rest of the stores some are better than others but at the end of the day they're "better features" rather than fundamentally better, like GOG is. Because ultimately what I'm doing is buying a game, not a forum or a review (as useful as those are), and definitely not renting a game.
This. Everybody must remember that Steam doesn't sell games. It sells a license to run games on Steam.
You "have" games on Steam as much as you "have" the apartment you're currently renting.
You "have" games on Steam as much as you "have" the apartment you're currently renting.
Epic game store is like 99% crypto trash. Microsoft store is pretty terrible and I cant imagine microsoft cares about this "problem" more then Valve does.
GOG is pretty great.
GOG is pretty great.
Also absolutely not true. GOG games ship by default with their Galaxy Runtime SDK built against for savegame sync unless you download one of their legacy installers; any game bought on Microsoft Store adds several containerization features that usually end up requiring a fully separate build.
Some of those examples are almost parodistic, specifically compared to the Epic Games Store equivalent offered. It feels there's something missing from the full story presented here.
Some of those examples are almost parodistic, specifically compared to the Epic Games Store equivalent offered. It feels there's something missing from the full story presented here.
OTOH steam launcher has a lot of features not related to playing games: friends, items, achievements, forums, workshops, screenshot sharing... Useful for some but not for all. Is that not the definition of bloat?
And the library management is pretty basic. And the whole thing is slowwww. Especially, if you don't know what to play and need to look at multiple store pages to figure out what those games are about. I switched to Playnite
And the library management is pretty basic. And the whole thing is slowwww. Especially, if you don't know what to play and need to look at multiple store pages to figure out what those games are about. I switched to Playnite
Could you explain why? I haven't used any of them so to me it just sounds like you're stating your own very strong opinion.
The article mentions things like input APIs, so I kind of understand where the author is coming from. As someone who doesn't play a lot of games, it sounds like a very valid opinion to me.
The article mentions things like input APIs, so I kind of understand where the author is coming from. As someone who doesn't play a lot of games, it sounds like a very valid opinion to me.
I figured that I was reading yet another gamer plea to just use GOG due to lack of DRM and instead we got… this. The MS store even has a weird save game format so you can’t transfer game saves between stores.
Totally lost any credibility to the rest of the article
Some communities would brutally murder him for this opinion.
It’s really weird for the author to put all blame on Steam while they don’t actually require devs to use any of their proprietary features, including DRM. Lots of indie games on Steam are just like the GOG games, you can copy and run anywhere. It’s all dev choice
The author wants a DRM that won't stop working in older platforms. He wants DRM. The problem is that the DRM is on a rolling release, and non-latest versions are not supported. His concerns would be solved if the games are able to pin to a specific DRM version/policy
OK but what does that look like. Does valve monitor every single game? Do they force developer to provide snapshots of every single version? Or is it up to the developers to support it and valve just gives them the tools to do so? In which case basically no one would do it. Because its a lot of work.
Also what does it look like if you use multiple DRM's? Does Apple Fairplay have a carve out in their contract that doesnt let me also have Denuvo? This is honestly a minefield and as smart as the poster might be, I dont think he has answers even he would like for all these questions.
Also what does it look like if you use multiple DRM's? Does Apple Fairplay have a carve out in their contract that doesnt let me also have Denuvo? This is honestly a minefield and as smart as the poster might be, I dont think he has answers even he would like for all these questions.
I think i disagree? you do own games on steam: just download them, and you can then launch them without the steam client. At least Paradox/Sid Meiers games work without steam, i did not test others, but i remember playing Dragon Age (the first one) and Mass effect without launching steam (basically we used steam to install those game on my PC, then disconected from my friend account account, and could play a "pirated" game like this)
They’re also usually trivial to crack (if they don’t come with their own DRM). If Steam goes under or Musk buys it or whatever, you just swap the Steam API DLL with a shim that implements a couple of Steam callbacks.
Gaben saved gaming.
Gaben saved gaming.
Steam is still the only platform I'm using regularly, and IMHO it does everything right. I'm planning to try to put an app on it and have high hopes for it, but I'm still trying to find a gaming-related angle that makes them accept it. I believe to understand the reasons why Steam avoids ordinary apps, but at the same time have a hard time figuring out how the existing non-game content like tools and general productivity apps made it on the platform. Officially, they're not supported. Do the publishers have some personal connection to Steam employees? Or do they brand them as game-content creation related?
I also mostly use Steam, but i honestly dont know what other stores(epic, xbox, etc) do wrong. I only use Steam to explore new game, buy game and install game, and other stores can do the same thing.
I dont understand the hate for other stores.
I dont understand the hate for other stores.
It is always interesting seeing the mostly blind loyalty that Valve seems to get for no real clear reason.
Don't get me wrong, I love their games (when they bother to make one) and my Steam Deck. But lets not pretend that Valve is our friend either and their main goal is anything but to make money.
While I think that going so far as to delete my Steam library is a fairly extreme situation, I do think supporting a diverse marketplace and actually using other stores is a good idea. I have games on Xbox App (on PC), GOG, Epic, EA, etc. It really isn't that big of a deal to have alternatives installed, and if you are worried about the software there are alternatives like Heroic Launcher.
The controller situation is an interesting one though that I will need to do my own reading on, I knew that Steam tried to manage controller settings itself (which just further encourages you to only use Steam...) and has caused me to have issues with buttons registering twice. I was not aware that sometimes games had different controller functionality on different stores. Is there some requirement of this on Steam?
Don't get me wrong, I love their games (when they bother to make one) and my Steam Deck. But lets not pretend that Valve is our friend either and their main goal is anything but to make money.
While I think that going so far as to delete my Steam library is a fairly extreme situation, I do think supporting a diverse marketplace and actually using other stores is a good idea. I have games on Xbox App (on PC), GOG, Epic, EA, etc. It really isn't that big of a deal to have alternatives installed, and if you are worried about the software there are alternatives like Heroic Launcher.
The controller situation is an interesting one though that I will need to do my own reading on, I knew that Steam tried to manage controller settings itself (which just further encourages you to only use Steam...) and has caused me to have issues with buttons registering twice. I was not aware that sometimes games had different controller functionality on different stores. Is there some requirement of this on Steam?
I wouldn't call it blind loyalty.
I've used Steam almost since its inception, and by and large, it stays out of my way while playing, lets me install any game I've purchased historically without any trouble, and provides download speeds that approach my fiber's max limit when I do install a game. For me, it just works™. I've yet to have a bad experience with it.
Sure, I also use GoG semi-regularly, particularly because it's also been relatively painless to use but also because the often overlapping sales on both frequently result in games I'm interested showing up cheaper on one store than the other (but not always the same one). However, it started off pretty niche, and CD Projekt Red publishes their really big games to other stores (much to their credit), so I won't fault someone for not having used GoG yet.
I've also dipped my toes a little in the EA store, but only because there have been a few games I've wanted which required it. It struck me as an inferior experience to Steam and GoG, and I admit a particular distaste in the handful of cases where games bought on Steam/GoG still ultimately require launching the EA store before the games themselves load. If this is someone's first experience outside Steam, I totally understand retreating back to familiar territory.
I won't dispute if someone else claims having a bad experience with Steam - I just haven't shared it. However, I do find hate because "they want to make money" puzzling. Every store does.
I've used Steam almost since its inception, and by and large, it stays out of my way while playing, lets me install any game I've purchased historically without any trouble, and provides download speeds that approach my fiber's max limit when I do install a game. For me, it just works™. I've yet to have a bad experience with it.
Sure, I also use GoG semi-regularly, particularly because it's also been relatively painless to use but also because the often overlapping sales on both frequently result in games I'm interested showing up cheaper on one store than the other (but not always the same one). However, it started off pretty niche, and CD Projekt Red publishes their really big games to other stores (much to their credit), so I won't fault someone for not having used GoG yet.
I've also dipped my toes a little in the EA store, but only because there have been a few games I've wanted which required it. It struck me as an inferior experience to Steam and GoG, and I admit a particular distaste in the handful of cases where games bought on Steam/GoG still ultimately require launching the EA store before the games themselves load. If this is someone's first experience outside Steam, I totally understand retreating back to familiar territory.
I won't dispute if someone else claims having a bad experience with Steam - I just haven't shared it. However, I do find hate because "they want to make money" puzzling. Every store does.
I would say what you are describing is also not blind loyalty. But there are very much people who do have blind loyalty. I agree on not hating them just because they want to make money, but there are people that seem to act like Valve is their friend and somehow this saint for gaming as if they are a non-profit or something. I guarantee you they are not working on SteamOS out of the goodness of their hearts and it is more about their ability to retain control and fend off Microsoft more heavily pushing their store (yes I know you can run anything you want on SteamOS but that does not change that for most users the Steam store will be the easiest option for them).
We see a little bit of it on HN, but look at the comments on the Gist itself. This was also shared on /r/steam and the comments there. Or the fact that this is currently sitting at "flagged" on HN for no valid reason I can figure out.
There are a (seemingly) rather large subset of gamers that any talk of using another store is immediately scoffed at. Dare have to be critical of Valve/Steam (except for them not putting out games anymore, everyone seems to be in agreement that it sucks) and people try to pivot to all of the good things they have done as if that just makes whatever bad behavior they are doing justified.
Edit: Seriously, go look at some of the more recent comments on the gist attacking this guy and tell me there is not blind loyalty to Valve. Some of these responses are seriously unhinged.
We see a little bit of it on HN, but look at the comments on the Gist itself. This was also shared on /r/steam and the comments there. Or the fact that this is currently sitting at "flagged" on HN for no valid reason I can figure out.
There are a (seemingly) rather large subset of gamers that any talk of using another store is immediately scoffed at. Dare have to be critical of Valve/Steam (except for them not putting out games anymore, everyone seems to be in agreement that it sucks) and people try to pivot to all of the good things they have done as if that just makes whatever bad behavior they are doing justified.
Edit: Seriously, go look at some of the more recent comments on the gist attacking this guy and tell me there is not blind loyalty to Valve. Some of these responses are seriously unhinged.
> It is always interesting seeing the mostly blind loyalty that Valve seems to get for no real clear reason.
Trust, it's trust. Valve has continuously proven to be good-faith actors who work with the gaming community on mutual goals. See: everything they've done for gaming on Linux.
The reason it feels very out of place is because pretty much every company on Earth has eroded any modicum of trust they have. Or, um, had.
Really, all it takes is a few bad decisions for Valve to fall out of favor. They just haven't made those decisions yet and we're all praying they don't.
Trust, it's trust. Valve has continuously proven to be good-faith actors who work with the gaming community on mutual goals. See: everything they've done for gaming on Linux.
The reason it feels very out of place is because pretty much every company on Earth has eroded any modicum of trust they have. Or, um, had.
Really, all it takes is a few bad decisions for Valve to fall out of favor. They just haven't made those decisions yet and we're all praying they don't.
Lots of the key people working on things like SDL that Value very heavily relies on are also very vocal critics of the Steam Input API. Steam Input is a bastardization of SDL technically.
I have personally benefitted from the steam input feature in niche cases, but the way it hijacks everything by default even when not enabled does seem to be poor engineer-ship. I have run into some issues when doing controller management within games, only to realize it has to be solved at the steam level.
I have personally benefitted from the steam input feature in niche cases, but the way it hijacks everything by default even when not enabled does seem to be poor engineer-ship. I have run into some issues when doing controller management within games, only to realize it has to be solved at the steam level.
GOG is DRM-free indeed. Others like MS Store and Epic? Lol, they aren't better than Steam in regards to DRM.
I prefer GOG, but it's cool that Valve are advancing Linux gaming.
I prefer GOG, but it's cool that Valve are advancing Linux gaming.
Still hoping for an official GOG Linux client
I use Heroic on my Steam Deck and System76 machine with GOG, works beautifully.
https://heroicgameslauncher.com/
https://heroicgameslauncher.com/
Interestingly enough TFA doesn't complain about DRM at all, it's quite the opposite actually, they complain that Steam does more than DRM when according to them game marketplaces should not be doing anything apart from DRM.
This is the guy that complains about DRM then implements his own DRM for his mods to keep pirates from using them on pirated games?
It's a bit strange to me to read these complaints about Steam/Valve, then have the author... switch to Microsoft Store and advocate for Game Pass?
What Kaldaien is trying to say is like:
"DRM means you don't own the product, and you'll eventually lose acces to it. Therefore, subscription based gaming plans are a preferred option, as they don't attempt to deceive you into thinking you're buying an ownable game, often with a real, ownable game price tag. The subscription starts at a given date, has a defined expiration date that depends on the offering you choose, and provides a clearer statement of non-ownership of games."
Personally I get the point, but this take is missing lots of important details that should've been considered before making such an impactful decision:
- Think, for instance, of some of the policies that are already present in some services, such as restrictions for offline play.
- And how much this opinion actually benefits videogame lobbies that are looking into pushing game-as-a-service practices that, very coincidentally, we're attempting to fight against in Europe with initiatives like "Stop Killing Games".
In fact, this message, at this time, could have counterproductive consequences for the non DRM market and overall customer rights exactly because of the surrounding situation.
"DRM means you don't own the product, and you'll eventually lose acces to it. Therefore, subscription based gaming plans are a preferred option, as they don't attempt to deceive you into thinking you're buying an ownable game, often with a real, ownable game price tag. The subscription starts at a given date, has a defined expiration date that depends on the offering you choose, and provides a clearer statement of non-ownership of games."
Personally I get the point, but this take is missing lots of important details that should've been considered before making such an impactful decision:
- Think, for instance, of some of the policies that are already present in some services, such as restrictions for offline play.
- And how much this opinion actually benefits videogame lobbies that are looking into pushing game-as-a-service practices that, very coincidentally, we're attempting to fight against in Europe with initiatives like "Stop Killing Games".
In fact, this message, at this time, could have counterproductive consequences for the non DRM market and overall customer rights exactly because of the surrounding situation.
Yea.... He goes on about how you dont own the game on steam because valve can... patch it so that it doesnt work.
But then says well lets play a game on gamepass. I mean I guess that DOES solve the "patch it so that the game no longer works" problem. Just dont own anything.
But then says well lets play a game on gamepass. I mean I guess that DOES solve the "patch it so that the game no longer works" problem. Just dont own anything.
The point is that when using a subscription service to access a game, like Microsoft's gamepass, you explicitly know that what you're paying for is temporary access to a game. Where as when you buy a game on many of these store fronts it doesn't seem like like you are only buying temporary access, but it is in fact what you are getting just with possibly a slightly longer timeframe.
I mean... Maybe? He's talking about games that no longer work on windows 98. But how many games are on microsoft's gamepass that are from 25-30 years ago? Does Microsoft support old games like that?
Or is this an apples and oranges situation where microsoft doesn't "break trust" because they dont even offer you the ability to play the game.
Also I would love a example of a game that no longer works at all.
Or is this an apples and oranges situation where microsoft doesn't "break trust" because they dont even offer you the ability to play the game.
Also I would love a example of a game that no longer works at all.
Yes, it's the latter. I know I'm getting temporary access to some games, whereas with Steam it looks like I'm getting permanent access when I'm really not.
Tbf, it’s a totally valid argument. It’s a bit like going to a library that costs monthly fee rather than buying books that get auto-disabled arbitrarily in the future (hmm Bezos?).
It’s false advertising when you ”buy” things with modern DRM, no? Maybe he’s tired of the hypocrisy.
It’s false advertising when you ”buy” things with modern DRM, no? Maybe he’s tired of the hypocrisy.
He seems a bit unhinged and has a personal vendetta here. Misplaced outrage. Microsoft has done more damage to the industry than good
Modders really seem to get into a lot of personal drama
That feels like the sort of opinion money has changed hands for.
Steam and valve has revolutionized the gaming industry in software, Linux gaming, hardware, VR, and distribution. This is a crazy opinion to have
Am I reading this wrong? He complaints that Valve deleted items and posts, despite them promising that it would not happen... only for the quote he provided to state that "they might not delete everything".
"Might" is not "will".
"Might" is not "will".
Are you referring to the usage of "some"?
> Will all of my information be deleted? Your personal information is removed, but some content you’ve posted in community areas is not. This includes things like discussion posts, or content that you posted in Steam community hubs, as well as comments you made on other Steam account’s profiles.
I read that as describing the types of content which would be deleted: "some" content but not all, and that the types of content that would not be deleted include the following: ...
I can also see how one might read that as saying that some of the following content may or may not be removed.
> Will all of my information be deleted? Your personal information is removed, but some content you’ve posted in community areas is not. This includes things like discussion posts, or content that you posted in Steam community hubs, as well as comments you made on other Steam account’s profiles.
I read that as describing the types of content which would be deleted: "some" content but not all, and that the types of content that would not be deleted include the following: ...
I can also see how one might read that as saying that some of the following content may or may not be removed.
Yeah, I think the author was referring to community posts. The linked FAQ article says this:
"Your personal information is removed, but some content you’ve posted in community areas is not. This includes things like discussion posts, or content that you posted in Steam community hubs, as well as comments you made on other Steam account’s profiles."
"Your personal information is removed, but some content you’ve posted in community areas is not. This includes things like discussion posts, or content that you posted in Steam community hubs, as well as comments you made on other Steam account’s profiles."
You can publish games on Steam without DRM, and without using any Steam features.
The only people to blame are the developers, not Valve.
The only people to blame are the developers, not Valve.
I totally disagree with the author. His main complaint seems to be this: "Games you purchased on a Windows 98 machine later had their system requirements bumped up to Windows XP, then to Windows 7, then to Windows 10."
Essentially, you can't run your Steam games without also being able to run the Steam client, and the Steam client will drop support for old versions of Windows after they are end-of-life'd. The author describes this as a violation of freedom, but to me it's totally understandable: when Windows 98 gets end-of-life'd, users have to upgrade anyway because security patches won't keep coming. Most people have, by that point, upgraded years earlier. Their Steam keeps working, and so do most of their games.
I'm not sure what kind of changes would satisfy the author. Should Steam still devote a small team to maintaining Windows 98 compatibility to satisfy him personally (as I doubt anyone else cares)? Should they do away with DRM entirely and just ship unlocked exe's (and have every major publisher bail on them)?
And, more broadly on the subject of game compatibility: the pre-internet method of shipping CD-ROM's also did not ensure that your games would run forever. You'll eventually replace your computer, and your Win98 CD-ROM games will generally not work if you try to install them on your new Win11 box.
Essentially, you can't run your Steam games without also being able to run the Steam client, and the Steam client will drop support for old versions of Windows after they are end-of-life'd. The author describes this as a violation of freedom, but to me it's totally understandable: when Windows 98 gets end-of-life'd, users have to upgrade anyway because security patches won't keep coming. Most people have, by that point, upgraded years earlier. Their Steam keeps working, and so do most of their games.
I'm not sure what kind of changes would satisfy the author. Should Steam still devote a small team to maintaining Windows 98 compatibility to satisfy him personally (as I doubt anyone else cares)? Should they do away with DRM entirely and just ship unlocked exe's (and have every major publisher bail on them)?
And, more broadly on the subject of game compatibility: the pre-internet method of shipping CD-ROM's also did not ensure that your games would run forever. You'll eventually replace your computer, and your Win98 CD-ROM games will generally not work if you try to install them on your new Win11 box.
I find the author's outrage well placed.
This is part of the broader discussion on commercial platforms limiting accessibility (including software compatibility) for short-term interests. Much like social media platforms shape media on their platforms, the platforms themselves are shaped by the owner's commercial interests.
This is part of the broader discussion on commercial platforms limiting accessibility (including software compatibility) for short-term interests. Much like social media platforms shape media on their platforms, the platforms themselves are shaped by the owner's commercial interests.
Weird outrage
plenty of other publicly traded companies pushing platforms to compete, all of whom have an incentive to submarine in anti-valve marketing.
like, steam sucks, but man the other platforms are worse. steam, for all it's misery and crashes, mostly stays out of my way.
like, steam sucks, but man the other platforms are worse. steam, for all it's misery and crashes, mostly stays out of my way.
>The biggest obstacle to game ownership on PC is the store you licensed it from, not developers.
There is no "Game Ownership" on pc or elsewhere. you purchase a license. That license is always obscenely limited, whether or not they enforce it with DRM.
The only real control of a game worth mentioning is piracy, then open source.
There is no "Game Ownership" on pc or elsewhere. you purchase a license. That license is always obscenely limited, whether or not they enforce it with DRM.
The only real control of a game worth mentioning is piracy, then open source.
> business models like Ubisoft+, EA Access and Game Pass represent far greater value to consumers.
Absolutely insane take. Guess we'll have to see which side customers take.
Absolutely insane take. Guess we'll have to see which side customers take.
My anecdotal take: I paid for GamePass for years and it saved me money every year. Since I stopped paying for it, I've spent an equivalent amount of money on Steam but spend fewer hours playing on a smaller count of games (and I've requested refunds on multiple games).
I'm probably not an average gamer in the sense that I don't particularly care about playing games when they come out, and I've played many "big title" games months or years after their release because they became available on GamePass, but in general, I feel like my GamePass experience was better value than Steam and I'm considering resubscribing.
I'm probably not an average gamer in the sense that I don't particularly care about playing games when they come out, and I've played many "big title" games months or years after their release because they became available on GamePass, but in general, I feel like my GamePass experience was better value than Steam and I'm considering resubscribing.
So, I've interacted with Kaldaien a good bit over the years and while he can have strongly stated opinions that are at times a little at odds with the intensity of an issue, it's not generally that he's fundamentally wrong. It's partially that intensity that seems to keep him so invested in the things he does.
Gabe Newell left a platform company that knew how important becoming a platform was. Microsoft has a great track record with software compatibility, if imperfect. Gabe didn't exactly want to create a platform, but there were very real difficulties in game distribution at the time and internet broadband had expanded. That Valve created Steam was not unwise.
That said, whether it's browsers, simple music playing, open source projects, software like Adobe Photoshop, etc there has been a rise in business and software complexity. Cross-platform compromises, unknown tool chains, unbuildable dependencies, dynamic ecosystems where a static program that just works no longer feels like a guarantee, megaprojects that increasingly solve a thousand problems you don't have.
Managing Steam is an unenviable task, depending on Chromium and Windows, expanding into an operating system project, hardware projects, even a bit of a social network... the mission has clearly expanded. The organizing principles of Steam have adjusted to a new environment and that has consequences. In the Steam UI you can go to View -> Small Mode to at least visualize how simple Steam could be, but all the other concerns still remain in the background.
When you have so many customers you can develop features for and deliver at scale, it's hard to reject the draw of shaping that clay. Hey, they've done a lot of great things with that power, but when you're so hooked in with momentum it's more difficult to undo the things you've done.
The problem is similar to browsers, though. When you become the leader, in a way you become the standard. You can still deliver DRM free games on Steam, but as far as I know you can't simply download them from the website the way you can with GoG. All the integrations Steam supports become a sort of standard that many customers expect rather than the true supportable platform baseline. Many games won't even release outside of Steam, so the only version that will exist is a Steam version.
Steam could address some of these concerns by developing a thinner optional client that aims for maximum platform compatibility and simplicity for use with a subset of games. That could then become another Steam feature that players demand or can filter the store by. Customers could opt to encourage developers to support that simpler client even if it means some features will be disabled.
Obviously, those games could get updated to need the fatter client, integrating more features, but that can be managed with good communication and options for developers or consumers. There can even be a different release channel or separate product ID. The simple client doesn't need an integrated Web UI either, since it could just open a URL in your browser that logs you in where you can buy games, check chat messages and so on.
I'm not sure if SteamOS could run on a Windows 98 era machine and run those games, but that would at least allow for a side argument that they maintain some compatibility. I kind of doubt that's high priority for them, though.
Gabe Newell left a platform company that knew how important becoming a platform was. Microsoft has a great track record with software compatibility, if imperfect. Gabe didn't exactly want to create a platform, but there were very real difficulties in game distribution at the time and internet broadband had expanded. That Valve created Steam was not unwise.
That said, whether it's browsers, simple music playing, open source projects, software like Adobe Photoshop, etc there has been a rise in business and software complexity. Cross-platform compromises, unknown tool chains, unbuildable dependencies, dynamic ecosystems where a static program that just works no longer feels like a guarantee, megaprojects that increasingly solve a thousand problems you don't have.
Managing Steam is an unenviable task, depending on Chromium and Windows, expanding into an operating system project, hardware projects, even a bit of a social network... the mission has clearly expanded. The organizing principles of Steam have adjusted to a new environment and that has consequences. In the Steam UI you can go to View -> Small Mode to at least visualize how simple Steam could be, but all the other concerns still remain in the background.
When you have so many customers you can develop features for and deliver at scale, it's hard to reject the draw of shaping that clay. Hey, they've done a lot of great things with that power, but when you're so hooked in with momentum it's more difficult to undo the things you've done.
The problem is similar to browsers, though. When you become the leader, in a way you become the standard. You can still deliver DRM free games on Steam, but as far as I know you can't simply download them from the website the way you can with GoG. All the integrations Steam supports become a sort of standard that many customers expect rather than the true supportable platform baseline. Many games won't even release outside of Steam, so the only version that will exist is a Steam version.
Steam could address some of these concerns by developing a thinner optional client that aims for maximum platform compatibility and simplicity for use with a subset of games. That could then become another Steam feature that players demand or can filter the store by. Customers could opt to encourage developers to support that simpler client even if it means some features will be disabled.
Obviously, those games could get updated to need the fatter client, integrating more features, but that can be managed with good communication and options for developers or consumers. There can even be a different release channel or separate product ID. The simple client doesn't need an integrated Web UI either, since it could just open a URL in your browser that logs you in where you can buy games, check chat messages and so on.
I'm not sure if SteamOS could run on a Windows 98 era machine and run those games, but that would at least allow for a side argument that they maintain some compatibility. I kind of doubt that's high priority for them, though.
tl;dr seems to be: "Steam makes my work as a modder much harder so I'm done spending my time making broken games on their platform work well" plus a lot of salt.
Bummer for the community but it seems like a reasonable position.
Bummer for the community but it seems like a reasonable position.
Why would I buy at ${store} then? If a store has features, while piracy does not have them, I have an incentive to buy at the store. If a store only has DRM, while piracy does not, I will be incentivised to use piracy.
I need to use a crack anyway to play the official steam distribution of Medieval or skip the Windows 11 installer of CnC Generals anyhow, so piracy is needed anyway. The store seems to never be needed.
The nice thing is having a community page tell me to skip installers or the faulty DRM in just one place, but $store pays their community zero worth back for doing their tech support.