On Working with White People – Part One(terencemcghee.com)
terencemcghee.com
On Working with White People – Part One
https://terencemcghee.com/Articles/Social/2017/07/21/9D100A42BE6B22CEF42C2C2EE23C6E45.html
62 comments
Street vernacular aside, my guess is the article would have been better received if the author weren't "one of the world’s greatest software developers" who "paid a substantial price to achieve my high level of greatness".
It's that extreme arrogance coupled with calling all these coworkers bitches and hos that makes me "uncomfortable".
Also being broadly racist against white people isn't strengthening the message.
> "In a later post I will certainly discuss how White people have this extreme need to identify with suffering."
Change the word "white" to "asian" or "women" in the post, and you get something that'll immediately get flagged and removed.
I think a lot of us here would love to read, discuss and dissect a post about the different working and social cultures that majority white people set up that lead to barriers for minorities.
But this post ain't it.
To quote the author:
> "Nawl muhfukka. You just don’t like looking at yourself for what you really are… a petty-minded ho with a fukked up perspective on life."
It's that extreme arrogance coupled with calling all these coworkers bitches and hos that makes me "uncomfortable".
Also being broadly racist against white people isn't strengthening the message.
> "In a later post I will certainly discuss how White people have this extreme need to identify with suffering."
Change the word "white" to "asian" or "women" in the post, and you get something that'll immediately get flagged and removed.
I think a lot of us here would love to read, discuss and dissect a post about the different working and social cultures that majority white people set up that lead to barriers for minorities.
But this post ain't it.
To quote the author:
> "Nawl muhfukka. You just don’t like looking at yourself for what you really are… a petty-minded ho with a fukked up perspective on life."
Your response exactly proves my point and show that you are not really trying to understand the author’s perspective.
> “Street vernacular aside, my guess is the article would have been better received if the author weren't "one of the world’s greatest software developers" who "paid a substantial price to achieve my high level of greatness".
I agree. It’s damn obvious that he’s not the best programmer in the world. But man, he made it out of a poverty-stricken environment. Don’t you think he’s allow to brag? I think so. Him being arrogant still doesn’t mean you should disregards his perspective.
> It's that extreme arrogance coupled with calling all these coworkers bitches and hos that makes me "uncomfortable”.”
Calling people bitches and hoes is definitely part of street vernacular in a poor black community. He had to adapt. I’m sure if he used proper english, he’d probably be called out for trying to be white. It’s one of the vicious cycle that most black communities are trying to combat within their own communities. So yeah, he’s gonna call people bitches and hoes.
> “Also being broadly racist against white people isn't strengthening the message.”
Again, you refuse to understand his perspective. He’s black. He grew up in a poor black community and based on history, white communities haven’t really been nice to them. So yeah, dealing with “white” is a big social issue for him. He tells you this at the beginning of his post.
All I’m saying is why is everyone disregarding this guy’s perspective just because he used street vernacular that’s consistent with his upbringing and character? Why is his perspective less than any one else? Sure he called some people bitches and hoes. Sure he has an ego almost as big as Kanye. It still doesn’t discredit his point.
I mean, have you never experience what he pointed out about ‘uncomfortable’? I have definitely experience what he’s saying. I have even used the same excuse as well in the past. I’ve seen colleagues use the same excuse. He’s not wrong.
It’s just fucking disappointing that everyone here is so privilege that they can’t even conceive his perspective.
> “Street vernacular aside, my guess is the article would have been better received if the author weren't "one of the world’s greatest software developers" who "paid a substantial price to achieve my high level of greatness".
I agree. It’s damn obvious that he’s not the best programmer in the world. But man, he made it out of a poverty-stricken environment. Don’t you think he’s allow to brag? I think so. Him being arrogant still doesn’t mean you should disregards his perspective.
> It's that extreme arrogance coupled with calling all these coworkers bitches and hos that makes me "uncomfortable”.”
Calling people bitches and hoes is definitely part of street vernacular in a poor black community. He had to adapt. I’m sure if he used proper english, he’d probably be called out for trying to be white. It’s one of the vicious cycle that most black communities are trying to combat within their own communities. So yeah, he’s gonna call people bitches and hoes.
> “Also being broadly racist against white people isn't strengthening the message.”
Again, you refuse to understand his perspective. He’s black. He grew up in a poor black community and based on history, white communities haven’t really been nice to them. So yeah, dealing with “white” is a big social issue for him. He tells you this at the beginning of his post.
All I’m saying is why is everyone disregarding this guy’s perspective just because he used street vernacular that’s consistent with his upbringing and character? Why is his perspective less than any one else? Sure he called some people bitches and hoes. Sure he has an ego almost as big as Kanye. It still doesn’t discredit his point.
I mean, have you never experience what he pointed out about ‘uncomfortable’? I have definitely experience what he’s saying. I have even used the same excuse as well in the past. I’ve seen colleagues use the same excuse. He’s not wrong.
It’s just fucking disappointing that everyone here is so privilege that they can’t even conceive his perspective.
He writes this way because he wants to, not because he has to:
> "I also tend not to use a bunch of euphemisms nor do I believe in making concessions so that everyone feels nice and comfy even when we don’t agree. I’m very direct and to the point when it comes to technology and I tend to speak in firm absolutes. If this bothers you, then you won’t enjoy your visits here."
When an article gets posted on HN that is written in firm absolutes about bitches and hos and how white people are all like this or like that, then it understandably gets pushback.
This man is not a child. He is not a helpless product of his upbringing.
He's a grown-up who works in the same general industry we all do. I don't have to appreciate his rudeness and arrogance just because he overcame the odds to get to where he is.
> "I also tend not to use a bunch of euphemisms nor do I believe in making concessions so that everyone feels nice and comfy even when we don’t agree. I’m very direct and to the point when it comes to technology and I tend to speak in firm absolutes. If this bothers you, then you won’t enjoy your visits here."
When an article gets posted on HN that is written in firm absolutes about bitches and hos and how white people are all like this or like that, then it understandably gets pushback.
This man is not a child. He is not a helpless product of his upbringing.
He's a grown-up who works in the same general industry we all do. I don't have to appreciate his rudeness and arrogance just because he overcame the odds to get to where he is.
Just to be clear: do you want to read more or less texts where it is ok to call people bitches and hoes?
Why? Is it making you uncomfortable?
No. And as for my question "do you want more of it"? While we are at it, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alive:_The_Story_of_the_Andes_... should we advocate for restaurants that cater to people who had to resort to cannibalism to survive extreme situations?
Or is cannibalism something you want less of, not more?
Or is cannibalism something you want less of, not more?
Seriously, the "street vernacular" was intentional. And in my opinion, he pulled it off very well. Business English just wouldn't have worked.
I have no problem with him writing about what he assumes to be biased or racist behavior he's encountered. But the racist stereotyping and generalization he indulges in is baseless and drains his entire piece of credibility. It has no place on HN or in any sort of discourse.
I don't know. I kinda agree, but if HN will indulge writing on bias from every other demographic, why object to this one? You don't hear much about women in tech without the corollary that the industry is backboned by misogyny and men are sexist womanizers.
I think there is a morsel of insight in here: "comfort" is a weasel word. It is the current accepted way of getting out of something we don't want. It can be, as the author suggests, the mask over racism. It is also the "cultural fit" nonsense, where we reject qualified a qualified person for being whatever he is: too ugly, too attractive, too old, too much potential to be my boss...
I think there is a morsel of insight in here: "comfort" is a weasel word. It is the current accepted way of getting out of something we don't want. It can be, as the author suggests, the mask over racism. It is also the "cultural fit" nonsense, where we reject qualified a qualified person for being whatever he is: too ugly, too attractive, too old, too much potential to be my boss...
My therapist used to say "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is probably the one you hit."
When criticisms from an oppressed underclass comes in, there is usually some polite and politically correct reason to dismiss them. In many cases, if the oppressed could somehow magically find the right words to say it "appropriately," it still would not be acceptable because the truth in such situations is very often that the real problem is criticizing the status quo, not the manner in which those criticisms were framed.
Or, to use the terminology of this post, it makes people uncomfortable and they play the comfortable card. Because the comfort of privileged peoples matter. The discomfort of the oppressed never does, no matter how much real and genuine suffering is involved for the oppressed compared to the minor annoyances the privileged group can't tolerate for themselves.
When criticisms from an oppressed underclass comes in, there is usually some polite and politically correct reason to dismiss them. In many cases, if the oppressed could somehow magically find the right words to say it "appropriately," it still would not be acceptable because the truth in such situations is very often that the real problem is criticizing the status quo, not the manner in which those criticisms were framed.
Or, to use the terminology of this post, it makes people uncomfortable and they play the comfortable card. Because the comfort of privileged peoples matter. The discomfort of the oppressed never does, no matter how much real and genuine suffering is involved for the oppressed compared to the minor annoyances the privileged group can't tolerate for themselves.
What an eloquent explanation. 100% agreed.
> "Do you think that Deb had to list valid reasons why the organization shouldn’t make the hire?"
> "This dumb bitch just didn’t wanna have to say it."
> "This ho did all sorts of shit to try and make sure that “her man and this new bitch” didn’t spend any time together."
Maybe because the hire thinks of people as dumb bitches and hos, sees every interaction through a racial lens, and can't seem to go a paragraph without cursing.
Or maybe I'm racist. It's probably that.
> "This dumb bitch just didn’t wanna have to say it."
> "This ho did all sorts of shit to try and make sure that “her man and this new bitch” didn’t spend any time together."
Maybe because the hire thinks of people as dumb bitches and hos, sees every interaction through a racial lens, and can't seem to go a paragraph without cursing.
Or maybe I'm racist. It's probably that.
>sees every interaction through a racial lens
As opposed to all those non-racial interactions you have as a minority in the workplace, or life in general? It's easy to suggest that there exists this social state where race isn't important and everyone is equal, but the material reality, of peoples preconceptions and sub/conscious assumptions is different. As a minority, your experiences are defined and informed by your race - how are you meant to have interactions without a racial aspect?
As opposed to all those non-racial interactions you have as a minority in the workplace, or life in general? It's easy to suggest that there exists this social state where race isn't important and everyone is equal, but the material reality, of peoples preconceptions and sub/conscious assumptions is different. As a minority, your experiences are defined and informed by your race - how are you meant to have interactions without a racial aspect?
I don't remember where I heard it, but it went along the lines of
>As a black dude, racism can make you crazy. You have a white guy walk in the room, and he says hello to everyone, but not to you. Did he just not see you cause you were kinda tucked in the corner, or is he racist? The girl at the coffee shop shoots you a funky look, is it because she's racist, or did she just have something in her eye? Maybe your haircut is just weird. It adds up, day after day after day, it makes you crazy.
>As a black dude, racism can make you crazy. You have a white guy walk in the room, and he says hello to everyone, but not to you. Did he just not see you cause you were kinda tucked in the corner, or is he racist? The girl at the coffee shop shoots you a funky look, is it because she's racist, or did she just have something in her eye? Maybe your haircut is just weird. It adds up, day after day after day, it makes you crazy.
I've got some experience being an immediately visible minority, and once you start to go down the "because she's racist" rabbit hole, there are no brakes.
There's a ton of negative interactions that we all experience in any given week. If you start seeing every interaction through a racial lens, it does indeed make you crazy.
You go from "she's having a bad day so the way she treated me is about her" to "she's racist so the way she treated me is about me".
There's a ton of negative interactions that we all experience in any given week. If you start seeing every interaction through a racial lens, it does indeed make you crazy.
You go from "she's having a bad day so the way she treated me is about her" to "she's racist so the way she treated me is about me".
> If you start seeing every interaction through a racial lens, it does indeed make you crazy.
This usually happens when you "start" interact with the world with a racial black skin color.
This usually happens when you "start" interact with the world with a racial black skin color.
newsbinator(1)
[deleted]
[deleted]
Maybe you're not used of this way of talking and you associate it with things you disaprove, so you're reading this article from your own lens.
That's true. I'm not used to people in the office being bitches and hos and ninjas.
I work with adults and they work with adults.
I work with adults and they work with adults.
I just might be oblivious, as a middle eastern immigrant, but how is this not a racist piece ? Am I missing something ?
It can be hard to understand one's own culture because it may be all you have ever known. So in this case a black man is writing about his experience working in an company where he is the minority. His piece highlights some negative patterns he has seen in his white coworkers that may be common patterns in society. I think that his perspective is helpful.
The reason it may feel racist is when you imagine the opposite situation: a white man working at a majority black company and publicly deriding his coworkers' behavior. What is different between these two situations?
I think the biggest difference is that if the white business culture is going to change to address the issues he brings up he needs the help of white people to make that change. White people don't need the help of black people because they are a small minority in this industry and a minority overall in the US.
The reason it may feel racist is when you imagine the opposite situation: a white man working at a majority black company and publicly deriding his coworkers' behavior. What is different between these two situations?
I think the biggest difference is that if the white business culture is going to change to address the issues he brings up he needs the help of white people to make that change. White people don't need the help of black people because they are a small minority in this industry and a minority overall in the US.
Racism is more than just calling out race in a specific dynamic:
..."racism" is defined not only in terms of individual prejudice, but also in terms of a power structure which protects the interests of the dominant culture and actively discriminates against ethnic minorities.[0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Popular_usage
..."racism" is defined not only in terms of individual prejudice, but also in terms of a power structure which protects the interests of the dominant culture and actively discriminates against ethnic minorities.[0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Popular_usage
> Racism is more than just calling out race in a specific dynamic
This is a very hotly contested point (one on which there is no clear consensus on the Left and utter rejection ofnthe idea on the Right.)
The “power structure” concept of racism was, historically, a deliberate invention to invalidate the specific idea that black people (the racial group of interest in the context in which the concept was developed) could be racist; it's deeply problematic because the mere adoption of it as a popular viewpoint alters the power structure, creates (or enhances an existing) context in which people in groups perceived to be disadvantaged in a broader context are privileges for that reason, and thus ends up negating its own basic purpose and making itself irrelevant.
It's much more useful to view the specific power dynamics applicable to a particular case as a factor in the significance and impact of racism than to take more generalized power dynamics as an factor in deciding whether there is racism.
This is a very hotly contested point (one on which there is no clear consensus on the Left and utter rejection ofnthe idea on the Right.)
The “power structure” concept of racism was, historically, a deliberate invention to invalidate the specific idea that black people (the racial group of interest in the context in which the concept was developed) could be racist; it's deeply problematic because the mere adoption of it as a popular viewpoint alters the power structure, creates (or enhances an existing) context in which people in groups perceived to be disadvantaged in a broader context are privileges for that reason, and thus ends up negating its own basic purpose and making itself irrelevant.
It's much more useful to view the specific power dynamics applicable to a particular case as a factor in the significance and impact of racism than to take more generalized power dynamics as an factor in deciding whether there is racism.
My friend and I just had this discussion this morning, because he's having an ongoing argument with his girlfriend, wherein she is arguing that it is impossible to be racist to a white person in America, and he is arguing that that very argument is racist.
The gist is she is using the "power structure" definition of racism, and he is using the "prejudice based on race" definition.
I feel like this difference in definitions is the root of a lot of arguments in modern discourse.
The gist is she is using the "power structure" definition of racism, and he is using the "prejudice based on race" definition.
I feel like this difference in definitions is the root of a lot of arguments in modern discourse.
I am white and I am often weirded out by the "uncomfortable" thing too. Fun read.
I am white and I've never heard anyone argue on the basis of "I'm uncomfortable with this [person|choice]". They at least try to weasel around and present faux arguments.
Could be because I'm from Germany. Is this an American thing, or maybe just something that's not happening at my workplace?
Could be because I'm from Germany. Is this an American thing, or maybe just something that's not happening at my workplace?
I am German too. From my experience Germans are much more direct than the US.
> had a very odd combination of thug background mixed with highly valuable software development abilities
This is my experience, too. And it is very good to read this here. Great article, thanks for the writer and the one who brought it here. We are a minority in tech compared to women but it is difficult to not think that HN is as racists as the article describes when you see articles like "Women in Tech" getting a whole day into the #1 and this one flagged with a lot of racists comments that aren't flagged.
This is my experience, too. And it is very good to read this here. Great article, thanks for the writer and the one who brought it here. We are a minority in tech compared to women but it is difficult to not think that HN is as racists as the article describes when you see articles like "Women in Tech" getting a whole day into the #1 and this one flagged with a lot of racists comments that aren't flagged.
I keep my statement about Drake. However. It was a good read. This shit is true. I can picture this exact shit happening in my old work team if a dude with some thug tendencies walked in. People would be uncomfortable.
I'm having trouble understanding how this would be different anywhere else (even in "ghetto" neighborhoods).
thug: a violent person, especially a criminal.
Do you mean there's a social setting where that's acceptable?
thug: a violent person, especially a criminal.
Do you mean there's a social setting where that's acceptable?
I only wrote thug tendencies cuz that's how the author described him self.. or somethin like that. Do you pull out fuckin dictionaries when you talk to people in real life?
> Because at a pretty young age I had acquired a set of skills that put me in places and situations that I was not culturally prepared to enter.
He talks about his thug background to get to this conclusion. His past life interactions didn't "prepare" him to not make office people uncomfortable with him being just him. And of course, this is not his fault, but the people treating him badly. And guess what? This is what stops a lot of black people in tech.
He talks about his thug background to get to this conclusion. His past life interactions didn't "prepare" him to not make office people uncomfortable with him being just him. And of course, this is not his fault, but the people treating him badly. And guess what? This is what stops a lot of black people in tech.
Yup, generally speaking professional environments and thug tendencies don't mix well. That's because thug tendencies put people on edge instead of letting them concentrate on the work.
I don't bring much of my personality into my relationships with clients either. It's one thing to expose the human side a bit when starting conversations. It's another thing to fly blindly down the aggressive and self-aggrandizing tunnel of "Keepin It 100 For All My Real Software Ninjas".
To quote the author:
> "In case you’re an ignorant muhfukka and can’t grasp the significance of this or can’t see what’s so bad about it, then pay attention you bastard."
I don't bring much of my personality into my relationships with clients either. It's one thing to expose the human side a bit when starting conversations. It's another thing to fly blindly down the aggressive and self-aggrandizing tunnel of "Keepin It 100 For All My Real Software Ninjas".
To quote the author:
> "In case you’re an ignorant muhfukka and can’t grasp the significance of this or can’t see what’s so bad about it, then pay attention you bastard."
It sounds like one of his friends didn't get hired so he went on a rant confusing corporate culture with all white people.
This whole post just makes me cringe. Anyone who has to say they're an amazing engineer that many times is probably over compensating for something.
Or maybe he is saying it because no one else will because that would make them uncomfortable to admit that someone with such a foul mouth and the wrong skin color actually has mad skillz.
Isn't the "uncomfortable" thing something he and others can learn to use to their benefit?
That's my takeaway. Can't wait to flex this new privilege, tell my manager meeting with users/stakeholders makes me uncomfortable.
Like, instead of being negative about it, he could have said "Hey everybody, check it out, all you have to do is say something's making you uncomfortable and everyone caters to you".
That's my takeaway. Can't wait to flex this new privilege, tell my manager meeting with users/stakeholders makes me uncomfortable.
Like, instead of being negative about it, he could have said "Hey everybody, check it out, all you have to do is say something's making you uncomfortable and everyone caters to you".
[deleted]
On Working with Black People: It was cool. We all got shit done together.
He lost me the moment he claimed to be the greatest software developer in the world. Anytime someone brags, I very much want to see them forced to admit they aren't.
Damn, this article reminds me why I've loved working with Black people :)
I'm black-Latino and this was cringey as fuck to read
Incredibly low quality piece of writing. Is this an indicator of the direction of hn? I won't stick around. Aside, I'm white and went to boarding school in Africa - does the author think I should write a blog post explaining black people?
No, I don't think you should write a blog post, that is possibly what the author is hoping you will do. Then they can use it to claim you're being insensitive to important racial issues, etc. It's a trap.
[deleted]
[deleted]
garbage
If you quotin Drake in the first few paragraphs, I'm done.
Any port in a storm, eh?
Done as in not wanting to read the rest? How come?
So many spelling/grammatical errors too. It was difficult to parse.
Really? You must have a keener eye than me, I only saw swear words misspelled, which I believe is on purpose.
Why downvotes? I just ran a spell checker on the post, there are literally no spelling errors. There are, however, non-standard words that you may not find in a scientific publication, but you will certainly find in common discourse, and the spelling of all of these is perfectly consistent.
Stuff like "ya boi," "fukk," "nawl," "ho," and "skillz" are words we can find millions of examples spelled exactly like that. They are not mispellings, they are members of the English language that may or may not have been captured yet in some dictionary we all happen to point to and agree is "right."
Stuff like "ya boi," "fukk," "nawl," "ho," and "skillz" are words we can find millions of examples spelled exactly like that. They are not mispellings, they are members of the English language that may or may not have been captured yet in some dictionary we all happen to point to and agree is "right."
The dude grew up in a poverty-stricken black community dealing with white communities, so of course he’s going to have street vernacular in his writing. Of course he’s going to write about his perspective of culture shock and interacting with white people. He grew up dealing with that shit. It just all makes sense. Dude’s article is true to his character and upbringing. Nothing surprising but some street talk. Ya’ll failing to understand black culture here when ya’ll discounting his article because of a reference to Drake or some street talk. The fuck.
If ya’ll just get over that uncomfortableness, ya’ll can actually see a new perspective. “Wow. I’ve never seen ‘uncomfortable’ being used like that. Next time when I hear someone say they’re uncomfortable, I’ll dig deeper and ask what specifically makes them uncomfortable.”
TLDR: majority of HN commenters are people who might be white that fail to become aware of social issues from a black person’s perspective because dude used some street vernacular.