All the lonely people(ucobserver.org)
ucobserver.org
All the lonely people
http://www.ucobserver.org/society/2016/06/lonely_people/
219 comments
Strangers greeting me on the street was a culture shock when I moved from India to US (to Salt Lake City,UT). Often my brain won't process it in time to return the greeting before the person has passed me. Sometimes I will bungle the reply (saying "same to you" in reply to "Good Morning") or just smile in return or nod.
If you have greeted someone on the street and hasn't gotten any response back, please don't take it to heart.
I had the opposite upon moving from the US to Norway. In a way, I find it a relief - I'm not rude for simply listening to music while I walk, nor am I expected to check the bus to see if I know someone there (lest they be hurt that I shunned them by not saying hello). On the other hand, I got a great deal of my communication needs met by random conversations at gas stations and stores I went to regularly and actually meeting folks has been a challenge.
This is how and Estonian or a Finn would feel: http://finnishnightmares.blogspot.com/
How odd, as a Scandinavian (more precisely: Dane), I can relate to almost all of those. Maybe it's a Nordic thing and not just a Finnish thing? Bus stops need a lot of place here, because people don't want to stand close together, for instance.
I am a Swede with Danish and Norwegian heritage and I think this is pathological. If you try to resist and be social anyway, you will seem a bit strange or even feminine if you do it in a seemingly smooth way...
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Can you relate to the final situation? I hope not...
> Bus stops need a lot of place here
They need a lot of space :)
> Bus stops need a lot of place here
They need a lot of space :)
Ah yes, space. But I must confess I once waited in my flat to go outside, because one of my neighbours were in the hall.
If that someone were intellectually, sexually or some-other-way attractive, would you have done the opposite and tried to meet up with them? There are a lot of people in the world, some more interesting than others.
The correct answer is: It depends. Because there have also been times when I went into the hall, fully aware that my neighbours were there. The mood required is one where one has enough energy to interact with people, and that includes ignoring them. But I'll confess - because I am unfortunately human - that attraction is likely to be a factor as well.
I tried for a few months when I first arrived in Estonia. I got mixed reactions and was about to give up, but then my neighbours were the ones greeting me. I have since made a point of greeting any neighbour I meet in my building.
A lot of those seem to be pretty universal... http://finnishnightmares.blogspot.com/2016/01/just-browsing....
For what it's worth, I think "same to you" is a perfectly fine reply to "good morning." So is a smile or nod.
Agreed, it's a totally normal response. But when you get into the habit of saying it, you also tend to use it when the boarding personnel say, "Have a nice flight!"
I was also brought up to greet people, but try to greet neighbors in London, UK and they will look at you like you fell from the sky. Most of them will not even give a response. Big cities are a lot like this now.
Keep greeting them - they will come around.
I am from the US South and not saying hello (or waving when they pass by) is considered bad manners. I have done this all my life and people have told me that they like it when someone says "good morning" with a smile. Maybe I am lucky or biased, but I don't care. I like it when people are nice and I treat people the way that I want to be treated.
I sometimes have to spend a lot of time in New York and the people are the same. I just push through it. They won't change me because I like it when people are pleasant. Plus, the world is a nicer place when people are nice to you.
I am from the US South and not saying hello (or waving when they pass by) is considered bad manners. I have done this all my life and people have told me that they like it when someone says "good morning" with a smile. Maybe I am lucky or biased, but I don't care. I like it when people are nice and I treat people the way that I want to be treated.
I sometimes have to spend a lot of time in New York and the people are the same. I just push through it. They won't change me because I like it when people are pleasant. Plus, the world is a nicer place when people are nice to you.
One problem in New York is that the vast majority of people who try to talk to you on the street want something--they're selling something, canvassing for a candidate, begging, creepily flirting or running a scam--and another big segment are under the influence or mentally ill. Usually the best case is a lost tourist asking for directions. The worst case, that everyone's aware of, is someone trying to get you to stop walking so they can assault you and/or rob you by force or trickery.
I was actually just about to post this, almost word for word, before I read your reply.
I often see lamentations about people not being friendly to strangers in big cities. I've never quite understood it. It's one thing to not greet or acknowledge a person if you're already having some sort of interaction with them, i.e. holding the door for someone as you leave a store. Of course you should say something or at least smile and node politely, perhaps making brief eye contact, in that case. But, outside of situations similar in nature to that I actually think it's pretty rude to accost strangers in a crowded public place. People are going about their business and you're attempting to force them to give you attention, even if that's not your intent.
Experience has taught me that above a certain threshold of crowdedness the only people who are greeting me want something from me in at least one of the ways you mentioned. Everyone else is out and about because they have something to do. When I go to the middle of nowhere Kansas from time to time things are different. There you wave to passing cars and say "hi" to everyone even if you've never seen them before. The odds that some random person is going to try and sell you a watch at the intersection of Main St. and State Highway Whatever is pretty much zero. And, there aren't a hundred other things attempting to distract people so demanding a brief bit of their attention isn't rude at all.
I often see lamentations about people not being friendly to strangers in big cities. I've never quite understood it. It's one thing to not greet or acknowledge a person if you're already having some sort of interaction with them, i.e. holding the door for someone as you leave a store. Of course you should say something or at least smile and node politely, perhaps making brief eye contact, in that case. But, outside of situations similar in nature to that I actually think it's pretty rude to accost strangers in a crowded public place. People are going about their business and you're attempting to force them to give you attention, even if that's not your intent.
Experience has taught me that above a certain threshold of crowdedness the only people who are greeting me want something from me in at least one of the ways you mentioned. Everyone else is out and about because they have something to do. When I go to the middle of nowhere Kansas from time to time things are different. There you wave to passing cars and say "hi" to everyone even if you've never seen them before. The odds that some random person is going to try and sell you a watch at the intersection of Main St. and State Highway Whatever is pretty much zero. And, there aren't a hundred other things attempting to distract people so demanding a brief bit of their attention isn't rude at all.
This is my problem with strangers saying hello out of the blue - they think I should stop everything and give them my attention. And in their head they think they're doing something selfless!
Yep. A nod will suffice for greetings in almost all public spaces. When I recognize the tell-tale signs I've been 'marked', I am always prepared to respond with the unusually effective "negative" response and leave it at that.
If nothing else, in many NYC neighborhoods it would be simply impossible to greet every person you see.
Still, there are plenty of residential neighborhoods where no one acknowledges each other on the street, and there is no sense of neighborliness. Paradoxically, given this article, I find that the more wealthy a neighborhood, the less likely you are to be greeted by a stranger. The poorer the neighborhood (I would imagine down to a lower bound – I seldom go to the truly poor neighborhoods simply because they are so far from the city center in New York) the more likely that greeting is, especially in a black neighborhood like Bed Stuy or (when I first moved here) Harlem.
Still, there are plenty of residential neighborhoods where no one acknowledges each other on the street, and there is no sense of neighborliness. Paradoxically, given this article, I find that the more wealthy a neighborhood, the less likely you are to be greeted by a stranger. The poorer the neighborhood (I would imagine down to a lower bound – I seldom go to the truly poor neighborhoods simply because they are so far from the city center in New York) the more likely that greeting is, especially in a black neighborhood like Bed Stuy or (when I first moved here) Harlem.
When I was in Harlem the last time, there were a lot of greetings thrown around. Mostly, it was the older guys. The younger guys didn't seem to expect a greeting. I grew up in NYC and in my neighborhood, you saw people greeting each other through the 80's, but when the 90's rolled around, it changed and people stopped trying to know each other in any meaningful way.
In Australia what I hate is when people stand outside supermarkets or on shopping strips and say anything to try and get you to stop so they can sell you on something.
This might be okay if it was someone trying to tell you about a cause that they genuinely believe in but the majority of the time it is likely someone just working on a commission for whatever charity or group they are trying to sell you on.
This might be okay if it was someone trying to tell you about a cause that they genuinely believe in but the majority of the time it is likely someone just working on a commission for whatever charity or group they are trying to sell you on.
Yea, totally agree with everything you've said about it being defense mechanism, but the behavior tends to manifest in all aspects of our life and in places where it should not. For example, when I'm sitting in bars and where it's reasonably safe I'm still fairly reserved and I get annoyed when the guy to the left or right of me starts trying to make unsolicited conversation. It's not just me either, when I was younger and first started going out I learned pretty quickly people don't like be disturbed around here any more than I do now.
Common occurrence in the UK now is for some sob story about needing bus fare/train fare etc. It is surprising how many people fall for it though.
I always give a dollar to the first person who asks for it in any given day, regardless of whether I think they deserve. If they're asking for money, they probably need it. I don't think telling people they need it for bus fare is a scam, it's just another strategy.
My general experience is that people asking for money don't need it, not in the sense they'd starve without it anyway.
In the UK people asking for money straight out are usually drinkers. Drug users and scammers tend to want more than loose change hence the more elaborate stories.
I should add that I have been homeless and without money. One time my only option of eating was stealing food or asking for money. I chose not to eat.
I could walk you round a city in the UK and I could point out the real homeless and desperate people that you would never see - mainly because these are not the people asking for money.
I appreciate there is a huge difference here between UK and US since we have a welfare system that is many times more generous than yours. The people you encounter may indeed need the money?
In the UK people asking for money straight out are usually drinkers. Drug users and scammers tend to want more than loose change hence the more elaborate stories.
I should add that I have been homeless and without money. One time my only option of eating was stealing food or asking for money. I chose not to eat.
I could walk you round a city in the UK and I could point out the real homeless and desperate people that you would never see - mainly because these are not the people asking for money.
I appreciate there is a huge difference here between UK and US since we have a welfare system that is many times more generous than yours. The people you encounter may indeed need the money?
You present "I chose not to eat" as if you made the moral choice. But there is no shame in asking for help if you need it. I don't have illusions about what most people asking for money are going to spend it on. Honestly, they have to deal with loneliness and destitution somehow. That is why I specifically say regardless of whether I think they deserve it.
"You present "I chose not to eat" as if you made the moral choice. But there is no shame in asking for help if you need it."
Which was my point really. Of course there is no shame in asking for help but not everyone does. It's partly why I ended up homeless.
I applaud your generosity though.
Which was my point really. Of course there is no shame in asking for help but not everyone does. It's partly why I ended up homeless.
I applaud your generosity though.
I always found New Yorkers to be exceptionally friendly and not in the way you describe (ie wanting something). It's one of the things I love about the place.
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I believe newyorkers are friendly everywhere. Sometimes overwhelmingly so. Its their thing
This is a highly culturally dependent practice; here in the UK, saying "hello" to strangers is weird/creepy/intrusive and suggests you want something from them. (Also: the American practice of baring your teeth when smiling is often received as aggression.)
It doesn't mean they're not nice people: just that by starting an interaction trivially you've invaded their comfort zone.
It doesn't mean they're not nice people: just that by starting an interaction trivially you've invaded their comfort zone.
Only in UK cities. In villages and hamlets almost everyone says Hello to everyone, even if they don't know them. This also extends to drivers raising their hand from the steering wheel in a little greeting when passing in country lanes.
> (Also: the American practice of baring your teeth when smiling is often received as aggression.)
This is patently ridiculous.
This is patently ridiculous.
American here, I have always found it disingenuous and a little creepy when people smile while baring all of their teeth. There is a difference from showing some when extremely happy and the practiced facade people selling something have learned to do unconsciously, notably when lower lip curls down for more dental exposure.
Brings to mind the smiling with upper and lower teeth sketch from Silicon Valley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGSJ8b9raJs&t=16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGSJ8b9raJs&t=16
A lot of it's cultural. I'm from Boston and the NYC anecdote resonates with how I operate. If you talk to me on street or on the T or really anywhere i'm not expecting you to talk to me and we don't have some business talking together then I've just been raised to assume you're crazy or asking for something. I feel like 80% of the time it's a good strategy.
In a big city "neighbours" doesn't mean random people on the street but usually other people in your apartment building. You can say 'hi' to them.
As someone who was raised and still lives in the South I second this. Southern hospitality is a real thing.
I hate then stranger says hi to me, because i dont want it be done to me i also never say hi to anyone.
For me saying hi is start of business, like if u enter shop and want ask shop keeper something u initiate with hi, other than that it is invasion of my privacy. I can tell if i want talk to u or not just from looking at u and no need for stupid small talk.
For me saying hi is start of business, like if u enter shop and want ask shop keeper something u initiate with hi, other than that it is invasion of my privacy. I can tell if i want talk to u or not just from looking at u and no need for stupid small talk.
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I should move to the South.
Living in Portland now after moving from SF. Jarring at first how many people will actually just look at you, and half the time will actually pop a quick "Mornin'" or "Hi" to you. A friend from NYC was here visiting and expressed how much it freaked him out to have people looking at him in the eye -- given his experience, he felt like they were being aggressive or nosy.
Anyway, having originally been from a small rural town in Arizona (where many people just knew each other by last name), it really bothered me how people in SF would seem to actively ignore your existence.
Anyway, having originally been from a small rural town in Arizona (where many people just knew each other by last name), it really bothered me how people in SF would seem to actively ignore your existence.
As a Swede coming to SF, it was a refreshing eye-opener how some people actually talked to strangers at all. Here in Sweden, it's literally just panhandlers, salespeople, drunks and the mentally deranged who talk to strangers in public. Every time I have been abroad, I try to bring some of that spontaneity and sociability with me back home.
I've found plenty of people in SF will look at you, the real problem is figuring out how to connect with them as an introvert. If all you want is for them to do the former just hit the gym more as fitness is a mainstream way to at least have a mutual appreciation of each other in this city, beyond just connecting with other devs and ops people via your open source contributions.
>it really bothered me how people in SF would seem to actively ignore your existence.
This city is full of insane mental patients walking the streets, which puts normal people on the defensive. You very quickly learn to never make eye contact while walking around, just keep moving and try to ignore it.
This city is full of insane mental patients walking the streets, which puts normal people on the defensive. You very quickly learn to never make eye contact while walking around, just keep moving and try to ignore it.
I never actually had that shock, and I grew up just north of NYC (near White Plains, a quick train ride right into Manhattan). You quickly learn to size people up and know who is likely to try to sell you something, often by how they dress, their mannerisms, and how they approach you.
A big part of the problem is that when you just walk up to someone they don't really know what your intentions are. My wife is actually currently working on this problem though. She is an event planner and has started running meetups specifically for people who are looking to meet new people. It has worked pretty well in the US, but we're actually going to be moving to London (assuming my visa comes through...).
People need more venues to meet new people, but by greeting I meant more like saying "evening!" when you pass your next door neighbor in the hallway. I don't think there's an expectation to chat in this case. If I wanted to chat I'd start with "excuse me," and probably walk up first as you say.
A greeting can be made from across the street, and sometimes just lifting your hat in response is enough (I don't have one, but I have seen people do this).
A greeting can be made from across the street, and sometimes just lifting your hat in response is enough (I don't have one, but I have seen people do this).
Yea, that is in fact one reason that I wear a hat.
The idea is to make yourself visible as someone who is friendly, so that people approach you. (Granted, this might not be something you want to start out with as a total newcomer to a neighborhood like London.)
The thing with British people is, they love to socialise but above everything else they believe there is a time and a place for everything. If stuff happens out of time or place, things get really awkward. If you murder someone during lunch time, they'll be more offended by the indiscretion than the murdering. A good murder should happen during dinner, and the body found just before the cheese is served. Otherwise, it's just not right, know what I'm saying?
So if you want to talk to strangers, get yourself in a situation where strangers talk to each other. First stop: your local (pub). Or try gigs, festivals, open-air markets, that soft of thing. Or get a hobby and go to a club for the hobby, that's a great way to make friends (if you're a nerd with a hobby. I'm a nerd with many hobbies and it's worked fine for me).
If you just walk up to people on the street, or in the transport, and go "Hi, my name is Joe Schmoe of Peoria, Alabama, I work for Giant Corp Ltd and I have three kids and a wife I love" they'll probably only freak out and clam up. Obviously some won't, but it's a bit of a crap shoot.
I bet when you say you 're used to greet people, you also learned there's a time and a place for that too. You won't go and greet a cop making an arrest, or a firefighter putting out a fire, you don't go into insta-greet mode like a mindless automaton every time you see someone. The same goes for talking to people in the UK: you have to be mindful of the social situation.
I'm talking like a bloody foreigner here. Brits have a good side and a bad side. The trick is to learn which is the good side, and talk to that side. When they're nice, they're really nice, so it's worth it. Find that good side and say "hi" to it. You won't regret it.
So if you want to talk to strangers, get yourself in a situation where strangers talk to each other. First stop: your local (pub). Or try gigs, festivals, open-air markets, that soft of thing. Or get a hobby and go to a club for the hobby, that's a great way to make friends (if you're a nerd with a hobby. I'm a nerd with many hobbies and it's worked fine for me).
If you just walk up to people on the street, or in the transport, and go "Hi, my name is Joe Schmoe of Peoria, Alabama, I work for Giant Corp Ltd and I have three kids and a wife I love" they'll probably only freak out and clam up. Obviously some won't, but it's a bit of a crap shoot.
I bet when you say you 're used to greet people, you also learned there's a time and a place for that too. You won't go and greet a cop making an arrest, or a firefighter putting out a fire, you don't go into insta-greet mode like a mindless automaton every time you see someone. The same goes for talking to people in the UK: you have to be mindful of the social situation.
I'm talking like a bloody foreigner here. Brits have a good side and a bad side. The trick is to learn which is the good side, and talk to that side. When they're nice, they're really nice, so it's worth it. Find that good side and say "hi" to it. You won't regret it.
Not all big cities are unfriendly - I think you'll find levels of friendliness in the UK towards strangers differing depending on the city or area. It is a cliche, but the further North (or even West) you go in the UK, people tend to be more amenable to chatting to strangers or striking up a conversation.
I'm afraid it's a London thing. Lot of fear and attitude in that city.
Are you neighborly with the homeless people and beggars in your neighborhood?
This is a genuine question. How do you interact with people who live on your street but do not have shelter?
This is a genuine question. How do you interact with people who live on your street but do not have shelter?
Yes I am. There is one gentleman who is around fairly regularly, he doesn't have a permanent home and he is fiercely proud of that. He has money to buy stuff if he wants. He likes to read and will often trade books with the used book store or ask for books from garage sales as he sees them. He was reading one Asimov's Foundation books when I met him sitting next to his stuff.
We don't get as many outright beggars but occasionally we do. One person I talked with who was simply demanding cash I suggested we trade stories. I'd tell him a story and he could tell me a story. If we agreed he had the better story I would give him $6 (which is the price of a typical paperback book). I told him about the birth of my daughter and how it changed me in ways I didn't expect. He told me about of joining the Navy rather than being sent to jail for shoplifting, and learning the fastest way to clean a mess hall that had just fed 80 sailors who had been sea sick. I gave him the $6. But strangely he didn't really want it, he wanted to tell me more of his stories. But I was out of time so I said if I saw him around again I would ask for another story. Sadly I didn't see him later. He really was a pretty good story teller.
The people who have been problems have either been high (drunk or drugs) or mentally damaged. No fault of their own but they simply weren't in a place to be human. My wife and I called 911 and helped one guy get to the hospital, he was passed out in the parking lot of Safeway. He didn't appreciate the help but I continue to feel it was the right call.
We don't get as many outright beggars but occasionally we do. One person I talked with who was simply demanding cash I suggested we trade stories. I'd tell him a story and he could tell me a story. If we agreed he had the better story I would give him $6 (which is the price of a typical paperback book). I told him about the birth of my daughter and how it changed me in ways I didn't expect. He told me about of joining the Navy rather than being sent to jail for shoplifting, and learning the fastest way to clean a mess hall that had just fed 80 sailors who had been sea sick. I gave him the $6. But strangely he didn't really want it, he wanted to tell me more of his stories. But I was out of time so I said if I saw him around again I would ask for another story. Sadly I didn't see him later. He really was a pretty good story teller.
The people who have been problems have either been high (drunk or drugs) or mentally damaged. No fault of their own but they simply weren't in a place to be human. My wife and I called 911 and helped one guy get to the hospital, he was passed out in the parking lot of Safeway. He didn't appreciate the help but I continue to feel it was the right call.
Thank you for the well-told stories. And for being a role model, these are heartening and inspiring.
Wasn't meaning to call you out, but it felt awkward to transition out of 2nd person.
Wasn't meaning to call you out, but it felt awkward to transition out of 2nd person.
I am. I look them in the eyes and treat them like people. I know from the people I talk to that the worst part is having everyone ignore you and not treat you like a fellow human. It breaks my heart. It sucks out there. We might be off topic but I get you.
I spent two years getting to know many of the homeless people in (what was at the time) my neighborhood, and made a movie about the experience:
http://graceofgodmovie.com
You should watch it. I think you might be surprised. I was.
http://graceofgodmovie.com
You should watch it. I think you might be surprised. I was.
One of the problems in activating the homeless population is that they're not a community - most people have a life situation, lose their shelter, have a rough time, get back on their feet, and then can afford to rent again. There are some who live without permanent shelter perpetually, but this community is a small fraction of the overall population, and they have different goals.
Indeed, for any given nomad, you'd have to ask them their goals to know which ones they had.
I ignore him completely.
I'm unimpressed with anyone who travels thousands of kilometres to sit in the street and beg.
I'm unimpressed with anyone who travels thousands of kilometres to sit in the street and beg.
I think the whole "Block Party" thing works better in smaller places. e.g. In NY, unless you had a BBQ on the roof, it probably wouldn't be possible (and where would you put everyone who turned up?). Similar in London - yes, I could have a block party, technically, but it's all terraced housing, so (a) there would be a lot of people - probably too many, and (b) given property prices, most are probably renters, meaning they probably don't feel a sense of permanence or belonging in quite the same way a homeowner would.
Maybe that's a big part of it? Not just that you have so many neighbours it breaks Dunbar's Number, but that in cities with high property prices, odds are good most of your neighbours will be renting, and perhaps only for a limited time, whereas in smaller cities, you can buy a place, and it's quite possible that your neighbours are going to be your neighbours for 10, 20, 30+ years, versus maybe 1 - 2 years when talking about renting. It's a much bigger return on investment.
Maybe that's a big part of it? Not just that you have so many neighbours it breaks Dunbar's Number, but that in cities with high property prices, odds are good most of your neighbours will be renting, and perhaps only for a limited time, whereas in smaller cities, you can buy a place, and it's quite possible that your neighbours are going to be your neighbours for 10, 20, 30+ years, versus maybe 1 - 2 years when talking about renting. It's a much bigger return on investment.
I just wanted to say Thank You.
It basically takes someone to step up and organize. If no one does it it doesn't happen. If someone takes the initiative and organizes a block party it's a huge step in getting people to know each other.
It basically takes someone to step up and organize. If no one does it it doesn't happen. If someone takes the initiative and organizes a block party it's a huge step in getting people to know each other.
I can't even imagine a block party in my neighborhood. We'd have the 24 year old tech multi-hundred-thousandaire from across the street mingling with the Mormons to the right and the shut-in imminent foreclosure retiree to the left bumping shoulders with the gangster guys on the corner and the kitty-corner mother-of-twelve trying to feed her kids up on hot dogs but keep them from listening to any of the conversation. Then some douchebag would blow down the street in his Mustang at 40 miles an hour, totally oblivious to the barbecues and plastic tables covered in red plastic cups...
But that's the whole point. All those people have more in common than you realize and its knowing each other that makes people care about their neighborhoods/neighbors.
Every year there is something called National Night Out which I had never heard about before moving to Oakland. But all across the city neighborhoods block off their streets and have a big cookout in the middle of the street. Because of that we've met all of our neighbors and, at the very least, can say hello and not be "that tech dude ruining the neighborhood" or "that Latino family whose kids are always hanging around outside", etc. Instead we have some shared experience that brings us closer together even if it just means we aren't shy about saying hello.
You never know, maybe those gangbangers make a killer brisket!
Every year there is something called National Night Out which I had never heard about before moving to Oakland. But all across the city neighborhoods block off their streets and have a big cookout in the middle of the street. Because of that we've met all of our neighbors and, at the very least, can say hello and not be "that tech dude ruining the neighborhood" or "that Latino family whose kids are always hanging around outside", etc. Instead we have some shared experience that brings us closer together even if it just means we aren't shy about saying hello.
You never know, maybe those gangbangers make a killer brisket!
Ouch! To be honest one of the things you have to do if you're going to shut down the street is get a permit from the city. You fill out all the parts about what your event is about, time, etc. And there is a box to check for whether or not you will require a police presence (extra cost of course). We have always joked that it would be a pretty raucous block party that needed police to keep order, but I imagine there are blocks where that could be the requirement.
LA? NYC? Miami?
I wouldn't go greeting people randomly. But if it's somewhat related to your day by day, by all means do (neighbours, attendants in nearby shops, people you know, etc)
One thing I've noticed about Canadians is that despite their supposedly friendliness they don't give a f. about you.
Granted, different cultures and ways to express feelings (canadian.show_emotion returns NotImplementedException) but it seems their threshold of caring (even a bit) for someone is high
One thing I've noticed about Canadians is that despite their supposedly friendliness they don't give a f. about you.
Granted, different cultures and ways to express feelings (canadian.show_emotion returns NotImplementedException) but it seems their threshold of caring (even a bit) for someone is high
I remain pretty dubious about generalisations about the populations of countries as a whole. In my experience, these sorts of differences are more local. People in city centres are less friendly, because it's an intimidating environment. Walk your dog out in the 'burbs or a park somewhere and people are far more likely to be relaxed and say hi.
Yes but I'm not talking about saying hi to any person in the city center.
I'm saying about people you see daily (like people in a reception) not saying hi/not acknowledging it when greeted (amongst other things). It's weird
Or someone starts a conversation then the conversation dies suddenly and that's it.
I'm saying about people you see daily (like people in a reception) not saying hi/not acknowledging it when greeted (amongst other things). It's weird
Or someone starts a conversation then the conversation dies suddenly and that's it.
That's interesting. What led you to this observation?
I've only visited for a few weeks but my impression of "random Canadians" is that they care a lot more than random Germans and Austrians (or at least seem to?).
I've only visited for a few weeks but my impression of "random Canadians" is that they care a lot more than random Germans and Austrians (or at least seem to?).
Can't tell much about the Austrians, but Canadians definitely care less than the average German
They may be friendly and talkative, yes, but it's mostly for politeness. You might see they quickly lose interest after a bit
Now your average German will be a little bit interested in a legitimate conversation (of course if this goes nowhere that's fine as well)
They may be friendly and talkative, yes, but it's mostly for politeness. You might see they quickly lose interest after a bit
Now your average German will be a little bit interested in a legitimate conversation (of course if this goes nowhere that's fine as well)
While I think Germans, and people of culturally similar countries (Austria, Switzerland) are usually quite nice I have a hard time saying they genuine care about other people. Since rationalizing others misfortunes (or most things really) seem to be deeply ingrained in society.
It might depend a lot on the region of Germany as well, for example Bayern is in some ways more "laid back" and traditional (Austria seems close culturally to Bavaria than other parts of Germany)
This is terribly naive. I walk around my neighborhood saying hi to people and they call me names because I am a member of a number of disrespected minorities. Social cohesion is a much more complicated problem than walking around and talking to people.
It doesn't always work, but if you don't try it always doesn't work.
Yikes. I hope your situation is the exception not the rule.
Here's an alternative: have a warm smile on your face, but don't make eye contact.
The Messenger of Allah said:
"Gabriel continued to recommend me about treating the neighbors kindly and politely so much so that I thought he would order me to make them as my heirs."
"Your smiling in the face of your brother is charity, commanding good and forbidding evil is charity, your giving directions to a man lost in the land is charity for you. Your seeing for a man with bad sight is a charity for you, your removal of a rock, a thorn or a bone from the road is charity for you. Your pouring what remains from your bucket into the bucket of your brother is charity for you."
"Gabriel continued to recommend me about treating the neighbors kindly and politely so much so that I thought he would order me to make them as my heirs."
"Your smiling in the face of your brother is charity, commanding good and forbidding evil is charity, your giving directions to a man lost in the land is charity for you. Your seeing for a man with bad sight is a charity for you, your removal of a rock, a thorn or a bone from the road is charity for you. Your pouring what remains from your bucket into the bucket of your brother is charity for you."
The more I read about this, the more weird I think I must be. I've always preferred being alone. My time in San Francisco was utter hell. I couldn't get a moment away from people and noise. Now I live in complete isolation. My nearest neighbor is two miles down a dirt road. I only go into town to stock up on foods, which I vacuum seal and stuff in the deep freeze (enough to last me 3 months at a time). I've never been happier than I am now.
I get that feeling as well, sometimes. Even though I don't want quite your level of isolation, I don't mind working alone or not talking to anyone else in person for days (except my wife).
I sometimes think of it as the 'tyranny of the extroverts'. Since they are, well, extroverted, they are the ones controlling the narrative of what's 'normal', while the introverts are too introverted to really speak up. Extroverts are the ones saying cities are better than rural areas since there's more to do, etc (see other HN threads).
I'm with you, though. I will take a quiet, rural or semi-rural area over a city any day.
I sometimes think of it as the 'tyranny of the extroverts'. Since they are, well, extroverted, they are the ones controlling the narrative of what's 'normal', while the introverts are too introverted to really speak up. Extroverts are the ones saying cities are better than rural areas since there's more to do, etc (see other HN threads).
I'm with you, though. I will take a quiet, rural or semi-rural area over a city any day.
I'm introverted and I still prefer more population because it offers a lot more diversity in restaurants and grocery stores (I like to eat all kinds of stuff). I also enjoy the bustle of people even though I don't prefer to talk to any random individual.
> I don't mind working alone or not talking to anyone else in person for days (except my wife)
IMO, there's a huge difference about loneliness between not talking to zero people or only talking to one, in particular if that one person is important in your life such as your wife, as opposed to having had a short chat with the cleaning lady in the hall a week ago.
I appreciate that kstenerud was talking about the zero people scenario, and that it's possible to prefer it that way. I think it depends on how well you have the other parts of your life in order?
IMO, there's a huge difference about loneliness between not talking to zero people or only talking to one, in particular if that one person is important in your life such as your wife, as opposed to having had a short chat with the cleaning lady in the hall a week ago.
I appreciate that kstenerud was talking about the zero people scenario, and that it's possible to prefer it that way. I think it depends on how well you have the other parts of your life in order?
I agree. There's certainly a continuum for the desire to be around others. kstenerud is very much at the extreme. But he's not the only one, and there's nothing at all wrong with that.
Well, perhaps you haven't read this: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-f...
I read the article the same way. While I don't disagree that for many folks social isolation is an issue, it isn't that way for everyone. I find that non-introverts don't necessarily quite get it.
I read the article the same way. While I don't disagree that for many folks social isolation is an issue, it isn't that way for everyone. I find that non-introverts don't necessarily quite get it.
You frame this as a false dichotomy. Spending time with obnoxious people is not the only option you (theoretically) have besides being alone.
I, too, can spend weeks/months without interacting with other people and I stay content. I can read interesting stuff till the cows come home, cultivate my linux system like other people cultivate their gardens, compose music etc.
But the information that I absorb or generate myself in this way is very limited. Connecting with other people makes you enter worlds that are much bigger then your own little micro cosmos. Those people don't even need to be specially intelligent or interesting. Especially when you've spent a lot of time on your own very mundane interactions with other people can be almost magical if you allow yourself to drop some assumptions re: how people should be. In fact, meanwhile I find some types of people who irritated me when I was younger quite interesting.
However, the sad thing is that many people lack the ability to really connect with other people. There are many reasons for this like poorly developed personalities, self centeredness or greed (i.e. they only talk to you when they want something) This makes most interactions indeed futile.
So how can people form more meaningful relationships? I guess it would be helpful if more people spent time to learn about spirituality. By that I don't mean that they should join a sect or cult or that they have to adopt some crazy believes but rather that one should look beneath the stories of the various faiths and see how all those different groups who lived in different geographical regions have figured out incredibly similar mechanisms to cope with life and even managed to turn it into something great.
We like to stand on the shoulders of giants when it comes to (modern) technology yet we ignore "mental software" of the past thinking that our ridiculously short time on earth is enough to figure out everything necessary for ourselves in that area.
I, too, can spend weeks/months without interacting with other people and I stay content. I can read interesting stuff till the cows come home, cultivate my linux system like other people cultivate their gardens, compose music etc.
But the information that I absorb or generate myself in this way is very limited. Connecting with other people makes you enter worlds that are much bigger then your own little micro cosmos. Those people don't even need to be specially intelligent or interesting. Especially when you've spent a lot of time on your own very mundane interactions with other people can be almost magical if you allow yourself to drop some assumptions re: how people should be. In fact, meanwhile I find some types of people who irritated me when I was younger quite interesting.
However, the sad thing is that many people lack the ability to really connect with other people. There are many reasons for this like poorly developed personalities, self centeredness or greed (i.e. they only talk to you when they want something) This makes most interactions indeed futile.
So how can people form more meaningful relationships? I guess it would be helpful if more people spent time to learn about spirituality. By that I don't mean that they should join a sect or cult or that they have to adopt some crazy believes but rather that one should look beneath the stories of the various faiths and see how all those different groups who lived in different geographical regions have figured out incredibly similar mechanisms to cope with life and even managed to turn it into something great.
We like to stand on the shoulders of giants when it comes to (modern) technology yet we ignore "mental software" of the past thinking that our ridiculously short time on earth is enough to figure out everything necessary for ourselves in that area.
"Spending time with obnoxious people is not the only option you (theoretically) have besides being alone."
This has nothing to do with obnoxious people. I actually like people - in very small doses. Even the most pleasant person becomes a mental and spiritual burden after about an hour. Aloneness, on the other hand, is a beautiful thing. I can sit and contemplate. I can read the great authors. I can play my guitar. I can go on a hike in the wilderness at my doorstep (literally). I have all of human art and history at my fingertips, and now the time and space to ponder it.
This has nothing to do with obnoxious people. I actually like people - in very small doses. Even the most pleasant person becomes a mental and spiritual burden after about an hour. Aloneness, on the other hand, is a beautiful thing. I can sit and contemplate. I can read the great authors. I can play my guitar. I can go on a hike in the wilderness at my doorstep (literally). I have all of human art and history at my fingertips, and now the time and space to ponder it.
Oh I see. Must have misread your comment above. Good to hear it is working for you :)
I completely relate and I don't think it's weird at all. I'm currently transitioning to your lifestyle right now.
You are you - all humans are unique. You have your needs and desires and you have found a way to satisfy them. I'd be interested to learn if you feel any commitment or duty to others - do you have a social impulse separate from your desire for personal isolation? For example some people in your mould have written books to try and share their thoughts with other humans, some people make art, perhaps some people give money or other support? Would you like to do any of those things or do you think that you should?
You're not weird, just likely introverted. This book may help: https://www.amazon.com/Introvert-Advantage-People-Thrive-Ext...
You're not weird, but you may not feel the same way forever.
Also, there's more to loneliness at an older age - that the article addresses - than just the need for social interaction.
Also, there's more to loneliness at an older age - that the article addresses - than just the need for social interaction.
Everyone is different, and has different needs
I don't think I've ever felt loneliness in my life despite having been socially isolated several times.
One institution not mention (and given the publication, I find it a bit odd) is the local churches. It is one of the large connection points that have started to fade. The amount of social welfare the churches supported has not been replaced.
This is something that needs to be addressed. We are becoming more secular over time, but we aren't replacing the communities that churches create with secular equivalents, at least not on the same scale. Feeling connected is important, we really need to work on that.
Germany has the Vereinswesen, which are small clubs around a common hobby (such as shooting, football, gymnastics, orchestra, basketball, etc.) that are usually part of a larger Verband, which may be state or country-wide like the DFB (German Football Federation), the DBB (German Basketball Federation), DSB (German Shooting and Archery Federation), or the BDMV (Association of German Music Societies).
That could be a model.
That could be a model.
And it is in many countries, but for some reason the U.S. doesn't seem to work that way. I was a bit surprised when my son spent a year in high school in the U.S. and I found out how youth football (soccer) system works there. Over here in Europe, we have a plethora of local clubs that collect the young and old to train and play, and to work together to organise everything, fund it, and so on. In the U.S. the football (again, soccer) seems to be predominantly organised by schools, and a very small part of players belong to actual soccer clubs. I understand the same is true with other sports (American football, baseball, basketball, etc). Similarly we have lots of clubs that arrange things like music and orchestra trainings for youth, whereas in the U.S. this is also organized around schools.
This is good in many ways - for instance, the integration of activities to the school day helps it for kids - but at the same time, it makes the school's "quality" (in terms of what the teachers and staff are like and what kind of parents the children have) all so important. If the school fails, then everything will. And if you don't have kids at school, can you really contribute to the community in the same way as a seasoned football veteran can in a local club?
This is good in many ways - for instance, the integration of activities to the school day helps it for kids - but at the same time, it makes the school's "quality" (in terms of what the teachers and staff are like and what kind of parents the children have) all so important. If the school fails, then everything will. And if you don't have kids at school, can you really contribute to the community in the same way as a seasoned football veteran can in a local club?
I think this is partly driven by population density. In much of the US, there's only enough people for ~1 such club in a given town (and often barely that).
It could be one factor, but still, the sports action doesn't seem to be organized around clubs even in higher density areas. My country has half the population density of U.S. and still organizes around local clubs, even in the lowest density areas.
Regarding churches and other religious institutions, however, the population density doesn't matter: the U.S. has many more of them, even where population is sparse.
Regarding churches and other religious institutions, however, the population density doesn't matter: the U.S. has many more of them, even where population is sparse.
meetup.com seems to be alive in every city....
How is the target audience for Meetup elsewhere? I live in Berlin and I noticed that it's almost exclusively developers (which is fun, but sometimes weird - I went to a street cycling meetup and everybody else was a dev too). Maybe the dominance of German clubs in organized leisure is the reason for that.
Because meetup.com is what the expat nerds know
I've given up on it though sometimes you find something "outside of the circle"
It's like craigslist in Berlin: there are only scams because Americans think it works the same as in the US, when Germans have never even heard of it
I've given up on it though sometimes you find something "outside of the circle"
It's like craigslist in Berlin: there are only scams because Americans think it works the same as in the US, when Germans have never even heard of it
That was my impression too. In particular the types of meetups seem very limited to tech topics. Some are ok, mostly those that are actually meant for non-topic specific networking, like hiking groups etc, generally sports outside of clubs.
In my personal opinion, it's more centered around technology folks
I work at a community radio station, and I definitely see this as filling the void in my life that a community church serves for others (and for us, music is quite literally a religion).
I wonder how many people can answer yes to the questions:
1. Do you believe there is something out there bigger than yourself? 2. Do you interface with others in your community, connected in some fashion to this Greater Power?
I feel lucky to have this community radio, I wonder what other examples people have out there.
I wonder how many people can answer yes to the questions:
1. Do you believe there is something out there bigger than yourself? 2. Do you interface with others in your community, connected in some fashion to this Greater Power?
I feel lucky to have this community radio, I wonder what other examples people have out there.
I doubt we will since it would take a common belief that emphasizes charity and group togetherness. The most interesting secular meeting place is McDonalds for a lot of older people. Its cheap and you can often sit there a while, but McDonalds doesn't really have an equivalent of the local preacher.
Or Taco Bell or whatever local cheap eatery is in the local neighborhood.
"When many lower-income Americans feel isolated and empty, they yearn for physical social networks. All across US, this happens organically at McDonald's"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-c...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/08/mcdonalds-c...
McDonald's has something particularly attractive about it to older folks though. Might be nostalgia since it was the first big fast food thing, or maybe it's just cheap coffee. Not sure, but the one near me always has a couple of groups of old folks chatting there at 7-10am on sundays.
In the UK, there is Sunday Assembly, a secular community that otherwise resembles church: https://www.sundayassembly.com
My experience with the Sunday Assembly in my area was that it was really nice, but a pale comparison of the church life I had experienced.
I wish I knew what the missing element was, but I'm afraid a big part of it is the opt-in nature. It's like the difference between a good family and a good group of friends. The former is held together not just based on a desire to be together, but (usually) also on a sense of obligation/duty or even deeply held belief.
I wish I knew what the missing element was, but I'm afraid a big part of it is the opt-in nature. It's like the difference between a good family and a good group of friends. The former is held together not just based on a desire to be together, but (usually) also on a sense of obligation/duty or even deeply held belief.
Good point - I've been planning to go again for a while, but never do...
That's a large part of why I'm into social dancing.
Is there such a thing as anti-social dancing?
Ever been to a psytrance rave? Lots of people are go there with minimum social interaction and are there purely for dancing to the music in their on bubble.
> Ever been to a psytrance rave? [...]
...or silent disco.
BTW, there's a great movie "Lobster" [1], where this "anti-social dance" phenomenon is hilariously portrayed in one of the scenes. Highly recommended.
[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902/
...or silent disco.
BTW, there's a great movie "Lobster" [1], where this "anti-social dance" phenomenon is hilariously portrayed in one of the scenes. Highly recommended.
[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3464902/
"Social" refers to the fact that it's more about experiencing a dance, rather than performing to an audience. Lindy hop, swing, blues, contra, and contact improv would all count here. Ballet, breakdancing, mime, and tap would not.
Dancing alone in your living room, I suppose.
Yes, this is a great point that I bring up frequently. Even though I don't participate in churches I do think there is a real value in the communities they create.
The challenge is, is it possible to create such a community without it being around something like a religion or cult?
Sports (either watching or doing) are the closest thing I can think of but that takes a certain type of personality.
The challenge is, is it possible to create such a community without it being around something like a religion or cult?
Sports (either watching or doing) are the closest thing I can think of but that takes a certain type of personality.
Universal Unitarianism is pretty close to this. It is non-creedal (you don't have to believe in anything) and very community-oriented.
That's Unitarian Universalism, for the benefit of anyone trying to Google it. :) But yeah, UU seems like a really solid substitute for the traditional religious community. Shame it isn't more popular.
Not a substitute at all. It would be like getting rid of football, but still wanting people to go to stadiums for the sake of going to stadiums. Football was the reason they went.
The religions bind mostly due to the doctrine of the religion, not the activities of it. UU has no real doctrines and no binding point. Without that doctrine motivating you to do the activities, people just stop or don't bother. This is why secular attempts will mostly fail, because the doctrines they do have tend to be extremely narrow and non-universal, i.e. knowledge worker-style atheism.
The religions bind mostly due to the doctrine of the religion, not the activities of it. UU has no real doctrines and no binding point. Without that doctrine motivating you to do the activities, people just stop or don't bother. This is why secular attempts will mostly fail, because the doctrines they do have tend to be extremely narrow and non-universal, i.e. knowledge worker-style atheism.
That hasn't been my experience in the Episcopal Church. We're pretty liberal and don't do a lot of telling people what to do. People may come for the doctrine, but they stay for the ceremony and the fellowship.
That's my perception of church-based community. The doctrine is really just an excuse to get together and form community bonds. By your analogy, I think it's more like switching to, say, track and field, not gathering in an empty football stadium--a very different sport, but still a reason to get together and cheer. I'm not sure how that can be translated to the secular world, but it seems like there should be a way.
(I think a lot of modern atheists don't realize that liberal Christians exist. The awful fundamentalists dominate the news cycle so much. Most of us are happy to mind our own business, do charity work in the community, etc., but none of that makes headlines.)
That's my perception of church-based community. The doctrine is really just an excuse to get together and form community bonds. By your analogy, I think it's more like switching to, say, track and field, not gathering in an empty football stadium--a very different sport, but still a reason to get together and cheer. I'm not sure how that can be translated to the secular world, but it seems like there should be a way.
(I think a lot of modern atheists don't realize that liberal Christians exist. The awful fundamentalists dominate the news cycle so much. Most of us are happy to mind our own business, do charity work in the community, etc., but none of that makes headlines.)
My (quick) survey of a half dozen religious friends is that they value the community aspect much moreso than the doctrine/supernatural elements.
I posted this comment not to suggest either of us is 100% correct or incorrect, but to counteract the certainty with which you left your assertion.
I posted this comment not to suggest either of us is 100% correct or incorrect, but to counteract the certainty with which you left your assertion.
Oops… dyslexia kicks in late at night :) Thank you.
They meet on Sundays to hear presentations from each other :)
We as a family have tried going to a UU church, but it was so much like any protestant church that it felt just the same. Beyond that, there was little that we connected with the other congregants on.
Some people obviously make it work, but I don't know if just mimicking church with secular ideas is a winning solution.
I think it's just one of those things that families/individuals have to work out for themselves.
Some people obviously make it work, but I don't know if just mimicking church with secular ideas is a winning solution.
I think it's just one of those things that families/individuals have to work out for themselves.
More importantly the institution of family.
cLeEOGPw(1)
I was a semi introvert and extrovert guy but after working for one startup for more than 3 years in isolated environment makes me feel like i am fully introvert. There is no one with whom i can express my feelings openly. I don't have friends to hangout, and the most depressing thing is the people of my age have all this thing. What's more awkward is I can't even able to approach people, seems like i forgotten how to interact.
The other reason might be, i was afraid to not look like looser. Most of the people consider me quite successful and showing such weakness in front of society is not acceptable.
I have lot of ideas in my mind but i don't have energy to execute. My bank balance is good but it doesn't bring happiness. I don't have time on my hand. Sometimes i feel like i do sucide but i am strong men.
I don't recommend anyone to start a startup unless he socially fit and not under his early 20s.
The other reason might be, i was afraid to not look like looser. Most of the people consider me quite successful and showing such weakness in front of society is not acceptable.
I have lot of ideas in my mind but i don't have energy to execute. My bank balance is good but it doesn't bring happiness. I don't have time on my hand. Sometimes i feel like i do sucide but i am strong men.
I don't recommend anyone to start a startup unless he socially fit and not under his early 20s.
Isolation is so painful; it's literally traumatic for people. You are not at all the only one; in fact, what you are experiencing is a perfectly normal reaction. Humans are fundamentally social beings; without other people to socialize with, our cognitive and emotional systems don't function properly. For example, for children, I believe it's well established that even abuse by parents is better for them than abandonment. A much more extreme example is people in solitary confinement, who experience serious mental and emotional problems due to their almost complete lack of human contact (beyond anything even isolated people experience out in society).
Your social skills and energy will return naturally when you feel better. Consider finding a good therapist who you feel comfortable with. Not only will you have someone to talk to, but they can help you understand and manage your problems and help you develop the skills to do the things you want to do.
I would love to read on HN someday that it worked out well for you. Take care.
Your social skills and energy will return naturally when you feel better. Consider finding a good therapist who you feel comfortable with. Not only will you have someone to talk to, but they can help you understand and manage your problems and help you develop the skills to do the things you want to do.
I would love to read on HN someday that it worked out well for you. Take care.
I can empathise with this - I was edging on being an extravert until I took about a year of remote work. I think social skills come from practice and exposure, so when you stop interacting with people for great lengths of time, your skills weaken and you want isolation out of fear of showing your ineptitude. It's a vicious cycle; the only solution I have found is putting yourself in a social environment by force (i.e. workplaces, clubs etc).
Sorry to hear this. I chose to work at a big company because I knew that this would let me work 40 hours a week and so I'd have a chance to socialize outside work hours.
Please bear in mind that this is always an option for you too. I actually had a startup before I got my current job, but decided to get a job at a big tech company instead.
Please bear in mind that this is always an option for you too. I actually had a startup before I got my current job, but decided to get a job at a big tech company instead.
I'm sorry you're in this situation
Having community, closeness, and realness is so important for our growth but so lacking in our environments. The only way most people know to find community is through partnership (which has its obvious flaws e.g. divorce rates), or in the work place, which is often lacking in meaningful connection. Family structures are weak, and the communities formerly facilitated by religions are not being supplemented in our new, growingly secular world.
The internet can provide some amount of valuable community and support, but it's limited. Words in text can only convey so much. You can't be held. You can't shout and scream and be irrational. It's easier to hide than confront difficult emotions.
Therapy is so valuable, and its stigmatization hurts us all, but it's also limited. It's just one person, with one set of beliefs. They aren't there with you in the heat of a difficult situation. And honestly, there's something so gross about having to pay hundreds of dollars just to find someone to be real with.
The internet can provide some amount of valuable community and support, but it's limited. Words in text can only convey so much. You can't be held. You can't shout and scream and be irrational. It's easier to hide than confront difficult emotions.
Therapy is so valuable, and its stigmatization hurts us all, but it's also limited. It's just one person, with one set of beliefs. They aren't there with you in the heat of a difficult situation. And honestly, there's something so gross about having to pay hundreds of dollars just to find someone to be real with.
Where I currently live in (Bangalore, India), the community includes a large no of young people who've migrated from rural to urban places due to work or for studies. A lot of us are also first time graduates with financial dependents.
In tech industry (where I work), the current work culture has made sustaining a friends circle (support system) outside of work really hard; even more so when they live in different cities.
I personally see co-workers & friends who struggle to cope with stress at work, staying away from home/family/trying to sustain a relationship. The sad part is that it rarely gets spoken about. In our case time not invested in relationships during 20's (when one is also building his/her career) is a major reason for loneliness as people get older. Nothing that we have done so far has equipped us to handle it. An over-competitive job market only makes things worse. Prioritizing family/friends often gets interpreted as not being motivated/hardworking enough and has huge penalties (direct and indirect) associated with it.
I really hope corporates begin to see the importance of healthy & happy workers not just on book, but in practice as well.
In tech industry (where I work), the current work culture has made sustaining a friends circle (support system) outside of work really hard; even more so when they live in different cities.
I personally see co-workers & friends who struggle to cope with stress at work, staying away from home/family/trying to sustain a relationship. The sad part is that it rarely gets spoken about. In our case time not invested in relationships during 20's (when one is also building his/her career) is a major reason for loneliness as people get older. Nothing that we have done so far has equipped us to handle it. An over-competitive job market only makes things worse. Prioritizing family/friends often gets interpreted as not being motivated/hardworking enough and has huge penalties (direct and indirect) associated with it.
I really hope corporates begin to see the importance of healthy & happy workers not just on book, but in practice as well.
When I lived in different cities people would find it extremely weird when I talked to them or said hi on the street; guys would think I wanted something from them and girls would think I wanted them. With many people around me constantly, it was a very lonely experience; hard to get to know people (I have a weird/rare first name and one of the bar guys of our local (popular) cafe we went to every friday had the same first name; after 2 years he didn't know what I always ordered or who I was) at all, let alone make friends. I started to believe the statement which people always put forward; you don't make new good friends after 30. I had colleagues at the office including my some of my long term high school / uni friends but there was no point of living in an (expensive) city for that.
We packed up and left (it was a decision on a drunk night when, once more, we found ourselves sitting in a Kirchner painting of a place where no-one looks at or interacts with each other) for a tiny place deep in the mountains of another country (we moved from the Netherlands to Spain). Everyone talks to everyone here, a few years in we not only made new friends but even people we would call new best friends. Our closest neighbour is 5 minutes walk and the closest bar 10 minutes, so if we don't want to see anyone, we can and if we want a party with a mix of friends and strangers: at least 2 times a week, but in the summer 4 times a week, we can.
Because this is a place tourists usually avoid (it is high up in the mountains and most people really don't like that; they want beach and some blue drink with a parasol), the people that do want to live here (and weren't born here) have the same kind of attitude. Great place to work with a laptop in the sun.
We packed up and left (it was a decision on a drunk night when, once more, we found ourselves sitting in a Kirchner painting of a place where no-one looks at or interacts with each other) for a tiny place deep in the mountains of another country (we moved from the Netherlands to Spain). Everyone talks to everyone here, a few years in we not only made new friends but even people we would call new best friends. Our closest neighbour is 5 minutes walk and the closest bar 10 minutes, so if we don't want to see anyone, we can and if we want a party with a mix of friends and strangers: at least 2 times a week, but in the summer 4 times a week, we can.
Because this is a place tourists usually avoid (it is high up in the mountains and most people really don't like that; they want beach and some blue drink with a parasol), the people that do want to live here (and weren't born here) have the same kind of attitude. Great place to work with a laptop in the sun.
That sounds nice. What town/mountains?
I've been involved in a number of "community building" initiatives. What I've learned is that it is easy to start the community, but soon enough people start getting political and the infighting begins - it often only takes one or two people to ruin it for everybody else.
I wonder if the story about H1B visas and older americans being sacked provides a hint of a back story here. It seems to me that social solidarity impedes immediate profits; things like healthcare and pensions are very awkward for folks who want to smash open the value locked up in corporations for redeployment into yachts and sports cars. The consequences have been out of the public eye till now, but as the boomer bulge starts being the focus of this, and as boomers discover that they are working till they are 80 and retiring poor maybe things will change. How to change things - well that's going to be one of the challenges of the future.
I've been thinking about this a little over the past few weeks, and one thing that seems to be missing these days is communities where there is even the slightest barrier to entry.
In the old days (even 20-30 years ago), geography served that purpose, and after that, what seems to have been a golden age where vaguely like-minded people could congregate and get to know each other on amateur radio, CB radio, BBSs, usenet, IRC, etc.
It seems like these days, all we have are massive communities like facebook, meetup, etc, and although there are interest-specific groups, there just isn't any friction to keep the idiots out, and you're not much more likely to meet interesting people there than you are on the street or in a subway car.
I'd be interested to hear of anybody's experience with any modern communities that have even just a tiny barrier to entry, which serves the purpose of making them even just a little bit more efficient at allowing people to find each other and network.
In the old days (even 20-30 years ago), geography served that purpose, and after that, what seems to have been a golden age where vaguely like-minded people could congregate and get to know each other on amateur radio, CB radio, BBSs, usenet, IRC, etc.
It seems like these days, all we have are massive communities like facebook, meetup, etc, and although there are interest-specific groups, there just isn't any friction to keep the idiots out, and you're not much more likely to meet interesting people there than you are on the street or in a subway car.
I'd be interested to hear of anybody's experience with any modern communities that have even just a tiny barrier to entry, which serves the purpose of making them even just a little bit more efficient at allowing people to find each other and network.
I grew up in Canada and now in the US and after reading this, the first thing I thought of after reading this is - there are vastly fewer neighborhood bars in Canada. Strict drunk driving laws (obviously more important) and cold winters seemed to lead to the only viable bars being large clubs or in downtown cores where there's tourists.
That's a very interesting thought. I've also noticed that in Metro Vancouver the majority of pubs are on busy streets or in dense city areas, rather than neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the people I know (mostly 20-somethings) tend to gravitate towards the city core for social outings, and so I end up very rarely trying the few neighborly pubs in the suburbs.
I'm so angry about that issue. Long post ahead.
I remember an experience of mine. At 19, I wanted to flee my dad's home, which was in Paris's center-near suburb, because my mother in law was emotionally harassing me, she was very intolerant towards my presence at home and it was generating a great deal of anxiety in me.
Before taking off, I called my dad, and he convinced me to rent AND PAY for a small apartment 20min from home. I went to school, still the same isolated and nerdy teen. The 3rd year, as I was failing to get a degree and diving into depression, I did not look for a school program (getting registered in higher education in france is very weird), so I stayed at this small apartment, ALL EXPENSES PAID! I just let myself be abandoned. I stayed on my computer all day long, going to bed 2h later than the day before, so at some points I was getting in bed at 9am, and waking up at 17pm.
Only my grand parents came in to help me do some shopping (I never had a driving license).
During that 3rd year, the 2007 crash came in, my father sent me to my mother (who has been chronically unemployed in a small remote town) because he could not pay that rent anymore.
My mother really helped me because I had social contact with her and my sister, and it helped me a lot. I found a girlfriend, but we're fighting, and for the life of me I just can't contemplate the thought of being alone again, it terrifies me. So essentially I'm in that "friend zone", but I don't complain and we are still good friends.
My thought on loneliness ? I think modern society, with individualism, has compartmentalized personal space to such a degree that people don't have ANY opportunity to talk to people. We all have our own personal:
* washing machine * fridge * oven * kitchen * toilet * bathroom * tableware * terrace
Individualism means that compartmentalization of ownership allows for better management of resources. The REALITY, is that we don't share ANYTHING. We actually live in our own prison cell. This is fine if you have a job that implies social interaction, but for those who don't have a job, or have a job that doesn't involve social interaction, you will lose your social skills pretty quickly. And that's not a myth, that's what psychiatry says.
My cynicism tells me that despite the fact that modern democracies have a higher standard of living for all sorts of reasons, I can really envision a disintegration of that modern society if nothing gets done. I can really envision why much poorer countries can thrive and surpass wealthier countries for that reason only: because ultimately, if social atrophy increases, it doesn't predict good things...
I remember an experience of mine. At 19, I wanted to flee my dad's home, which was in Paris's center-near suburb, because my mother in law was emotionally harassing me, she was very intolerant towards my presence at home and it was generating a great deal of anxiety in me.
Before taking off, I called my dad, and he convinced me to rent AND PAY for a small apartment 20min from home. I went to school, still the same isolated and nerdy teen. The 3rd year, as I was failing to get a degree and diving into depression, I did not look for a school program (getting registered in higher education in france is very weird), so I stayed at this small apartment, ALL EXPENSES PAID! I just let myself be abandoned. I stayed on my computer all day long, going to bed 2h later than the day before, so at some points I was getting in bed at 9am, and waking up at 17pm.
Only my grand parents came in to help me do some shopping (I never had a driving license).
During that 3rd year, the 2007 crash came in, my father sent me to my mother (who has been chronically unemployed in a small remote town) because he could not pay that rent anymore.
My mother really helped me because I had social contact with her and my sister, and it helped me a lot. I found a girlfriend, but we're fighting, and for the life of me I just can't contemplate the thought of being alone again, it terrifies me. So essentially I'm in that "friend zone", but I don't complain and we are still good friends.
My thought on loneliness ? I think modern society, with individualism, has compartmentalized personal space to such a degree that people don't have ANY opportunity to talk to people. We all have our own personal:
* washing machine * fridge * oven * kitchen * toilet * bathroom * tableware * terrace
Individualism means that compartmentalization of ownership allows for better management of resources. The REALITY, is that we don't share ANYTHING. We actually live in our own prison cell. This is fine if you have a job that implies social interaction, but for those who don't have a job, or have a job that doesn't involve social interaction, you will lose your social skills pretty quickly. And that's not a myth, that's what psychiatry says.
My cynicism tells me that despite the fact that modern democracies have a higher standard of living for all sorts of reasons, I can really envision a disintegration of that modern society if nothing gets done. I can really envision why much poorer countries can thrive and surpass wealthier countries for that reason only: because ultimately, if social atrophy increases, it doesn't predict good things...
I'm reading that comment again, and by rent and pay I meant that he paid for it. (english is not my main language, sorry). I was actually not independent financially. I would have preferred being in a foster home or anything else than being spoon-fed by my family.
and unlike solving the problem of horizontal scaling, a mathematical equation or something with a clear solution, there is no clear, Silicon Valley style cure to this problem.
You can't exactly Facebookify people who are lonely.
Also, AFAIR(r=recall), Japan has a similar issue of loneliness.
Makes you wonder though. Even if you cure the economic (poverty) and health issues (living into your old age), something else will probably get you (depression, loneliness, boredom, etc.)
You can't exactly Facebookify people who are lonely.
Also, AFAIR(r=recall), Japan has a similar issue of loneliness.
Makes you wonder though. Even if you cure the economic (poverty) and health issues (living into your old age), something else will probably get you (depression, loneliness, boredom, etc.)
I can't help but remember Calhoun's utopia experiment: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1...
Counterintuitive, amazing, horrifying. Everyone should read about this experiment. I would love to know if it has been re-created.
If you like that, you'll love this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_of_despair
Where we learn more about the experimenter than the subject.
OT: No part of this article is visible above the fold.
http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h12ea4h.jpg
I'm not sure that the root causes are accurate in this article. I think loneliness transcends poverty and in many cases can be aggravated by wealth: many of the poorer people I know have to depend on social connections for things which I can buy.
Also, this comment seems really off:
> The homeless are, almost by definition, alone.
In my understanding, many homeless people frequently communicate with each other.
Also, this comment seems really off:
> The homeless are, almost by definition, alone.
In my understanding, many homeless people frequently communicate with each other.
As far as I understand - according to the article, loneliness in itself is not a bad thing for the health but what it brings with itself - the possibility of depression, possible risk of suicide, inactivity hence possibility of obesity and diabetes. I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like it!
I think loneliness by definition includes the negative effects. What you're talking about is 'solitude'.
>I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like it!
I'm one of those people who loves being alone, and I often ask myself the same question. From my experience so far, the risks you mention are lower overall, but they're still there. I
t is often interaction with others that prompts me to be more physically active, eat healthier, etc, in the same way I suppose that it's generally easier to commit to doing or not doing something if you're responsible to someone else.
I find that as much as I love being alone, my thinking and behavior slowly 'deteriorates' and sometimes it can actively make me unhappy. I do think this can be alleviated to a large degree by being disciplined, but then that in itself is often easier with others 'watching you'.
It's fascinating and I'm now wondering how much research has been done into solitude, rather than loneliness specifically...
>I wonder how it affects the people who genuinely prefer being alone, and like it!
I'm one of those people who loves being alone, and I often ask myself the same question. From my experience so far, the risks you mention are lower overall, but they're still there. I
t is often interaction with others that prompts me to be more physically active, eat healthier, etc, in the same way I suppose that it's generally easier to commit to doing or not doing something if you're responsible to someone else.
I find that as much as I love being alone, my thinking and behavior slowly 'deteriorates' and sometimes it can actively make me unhappy. I do think this can be alleviated to a large degree by being disciplined, but then that in itself is often easier with others 'watching you'.
It's fascinating and I'm now wondering how much research has been done into solitude, rather than loneliness specifically...
What if "solitude" is just a social and personal acceptable way to talk about "loneliness"?
I was thinking about those people who call themselves "expats" and not "immigrants".
In other way: the rich is "solo", the poor is "lonely".
I was thinking about those people who call themselves "expats" and not "immigrants".
In other way: the rich is "solo", the poor is "lonely".
I'd say it's a difference in desire, although I'm sure there's some amount of denial out there ("I'm not lonely, I'm just solitary")
If you want human interaction but don't get it, that's loneliness. If you truly don't want it to begin with, that's solitude.
If you don't want human interaction but get it anyway, that's hell (to an introvert, anyway).
If you want human interaction but don't get it, that's loneliness. If you truly don't want it to begin with, that's solitude.
If you don't want human interaction but get it anyway, that's hell (to an introvert, anyway).
I agree, although 'choice' does play a small role, at least in my experience. I've noticed that when the option of social connection is not available to me, I am more likely to feel lonely (with all else being equal).
In the states I found people will look you in the eye when oassing by and some will say hello. Most will respond back if you say hello or how are you.
When I'm in Mexico it's almost rude not greet someone with a customary "buenas dias/tardes/noches"
In Japan rarely people will look you in the eye period.
When I'm in Mexico it's almost rude not greet someone with a customary "buenas dias/tardes/noches"
In Japan rarely people will look you in the eye period.
On the other hand, try asking for help on the street in Japan. The level of helpfulness of random people is amazingly high.
Most definitely. Most countries I've found that's true. Save for the last time I was in Paris haha.
Definitely Nordic. I think I'm Nordic though I was born and live in Australia :-)
http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-differen...
(oops - finger spasm made me move this from a reply to top level and lose me 3 karma points!)
http://virtualwayfarer.com/nordic-conversations-are-differen...
(oops - finger spasm made me move this from a reply to top level and lose me 3 karma points!)
Loneliness is a curse of some cultures.
As one of my favorite musical groups so aptly put it "The Lonely People Are Getting Lonelier"
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I don't know Canada well enough yet, but I can tell you what life used to be like in the UK in my mum's time as a kid, around 55 years back in the North East of England. All families lived near each other and you lived near your school. You'd walk home past your nan's house and stop in there or at your uncles. Maybe when you got home your mum was out at the shops - ok go to your nan's a few yards away. Or just go to your neighbour, she knows you and should your mum be delayed long will feed you.
Then people decided that housing was an asset, an investment. The people that decided this were in finance, they made the credit available which sets the price. Access to local housing was limited. You had to go and get the best paying job you could just to compete in the "market". This meant moving away.
There were other reasons too like the destruction of local industry (forced out in part as land prices rose making them uncompetitive vs countries without efficient rent extraction). Plus brain drain into rentier activity in the capital. But for me land prices are at the heart of destroying communities.
I don't see community returning until we expel the usurers from the temple. Why is living on a piece of land so damn expensive? We don't have time for each other any more as we work insane hours. Both husband and wife have to work, leaving no time for other work in the community like stopping in to see a neighbour. All these tasks that were unpaid are now "on the clock" and the banks get a cut via renting money via debt creation for land.
My mum didn't have loads of libraries or "urban design" somehow coaxing people to interact. What that street did have is that they were not living in a time where ever single person was giving a big wedge of their wages to the banks thereby forcing them all to work all the time.
Then people decided that housing was an asset, an investment. The people that decided this were in finance, they made the credit available which sets the price. Access to local housing was limited. You had to go and get the best paying job you could just to compete in the "market". This meant moving away.
There were other reasons too like the destruction of local industry (forced out in part as land prices rose making them uncompetitive vs countries without efficient rent extraction). Plus brain drain into rentier activity in the capital. But for me land prices are at the heart of destroying communities.
I don't see community returning until we expel the usurers from the temple. Why is living on a piece of land so damn expensive? We don't have time for each other any more as we work insane hours. Both husband and wife have to work, leaving no time for other work in the community like stopping in to see a neighbour. All these tasks that were unpaid are now "on the clock" and the banks get a cut via renting money via debt creation for land.
My mum didn't have loads of libraries or "urban design" somehow coaxing people to interact. What that street did have is that they were not living in a time where ever single person was giving a big wedge of their wages to the banks thereby forcing them all to work all the time.
We live in a society heavily oriented around consumption and under increasing pressure from technology... the market mindset has consumed the world. It's debatable whether wandering shrinking families are a symptom or a cause.
You can avoid consumption. You can't avoid the need to sleep relatively near to your work.
I sometimes do worry about that. If banks didn't create mortgages, would houses be more affordable. It's obscene that I will give half of my life's income to the bank to pay off my mortgage.
People need places to live, so absolutely there would still be houses. Perhaps not as many of the more expensive housing stock with hardwood floors and granite counter tops.
The evidence of this is the very strong inverse correlation between interest rates and housing prices.
The evidence of this is the very strong inverse correlation between interest rates and housing prices.
You don't have to give half your life's income to pay off the mortgage.
Use your tenants money to pay off your mortgage. ducks out of the way
Use your tenants money to pay off your mortgage. ducks out of the way
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A lot of what you say resonates with my experience but...
'Then people decided that housing was an asset, an investment. The people that decided this were in finance...'
I can remember when the obsession with house prices began and I'm not sure those in finance were entirely to blame for this?
I live in Spain at the moment and it's interesting how people seem to be much happier, partly because they are not (in general) obsessed with the monetary value of their homes.
'Then people decided that housing was an asset, an investment. The people that decided this were in finance...'
I can remember when the obsession with house prices began and I'm not sure those in finance were entirely to blame for this?
I live in Spain at the moment and it's interesting how people seem to be much happier, partly because they are not (in general) obsessed with the monetary value of their homes.
Credit is the driver. You might be obsessed with jet planes - you can't get a loan for one. And it's not essential.
People were living in squalor up to and right after the second world war. I might not like the rentier economy but I try and remember some of the alternatives are worse.
Rentier economy is actually only possible after productivity gains. You go back to after WWII and try and take a big wedge of their wages. They'd string you up. Only when the wolves are from the door can one siphon off wages through obfuscated means.
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> When she couldn’t find her way back home, confused and scared, she screamed for help. She banged on people’s doors and tried to claw her way into vehicles, setting off car alarms.
> Neither offered to help, nor called 911 — they pulled the curtains shut and went back to bed.
This is a insult to my intelligence. This sort of emotive bullshit is both a lie (This is not what happened) and totally unconstructive.
There is a serious topic around this issue of care for people above food and shelter, it's just a shame this article is so piss poorly written.
> Neither offered to help, nor called 911 — they pulled the curtains shut and went back to bed.
This is a insult to my intelligence. This sort of emotive bullshit is both a lie (This is not what happened) and totally unconstructive.
There is a serious topic around this issue of care for people above food and shelter, it's just a shame this article is so piss poorly written.
So you doubt that the reporting is accurate? I don't. It's very believable to me that people would ignore some disturbance outside in a suburban neighborhood.
Granted, this is an anecdote that illustrates one of the stranger aspects of isolation, and probably wouldn't happen everywhere, but I think that's the point: in some places, absolutely no one will help you.
So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive.
Granted, this is an anecdote that illustrates one of the stranger aspects of isolation, and probably wouldn't happen everywhere, but I think that's the point: in some places, absolutely no one will help you.
So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive.
> So, to say it's a lie without any evidence to the contrary is unconstructive.
Sorry, it is of course a lie. You shouldn't need evidence.
If you think this sort of thing happens you are a very very broken human being.
'You' are the actual problem, because the people in these stories are not real. But people who believe these stories are.
I shouldn't need to link evidence but I will in the hope that perhaps the truly awful humans who think people will knowingly leave a screaming a grandmother to die in the cold might change the awful way they think.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-womans-d...
Sorry, it is of course a lie. You shouldn't need evidence.
If you think this sort of thing happens you are a very very broken human being.
'You' are the actual problem, because the people in these stories are not real. But people who believe these stories are.
I shouldn't need to link evidence but I will in the hope that perhaps the truly awful humans who think people will knowingly leave a screaming a grandmother to die in the cold might change the awful way they think.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/toronto-womans-d...
What's your point?
The story that you've linked to tells basically the same story as The Observer article does. It does close with:
> Mr. Fisher believes his neighbours would have helped Ms. Chiu, had they known what was happening, and may simply have not heard her cries for help. "I don't like to believe that people heard her and did nothing."
But that's not evidence.
The story that you've linked to tells basically the same story as The Observer article does. It does close with:
> Mr. Fisher believes his neighbours would have helped Ms. Chiu, had they known what was happening, and may simply have not heard her cries for help. "I don't like to believe that people heard her and did nothing."
But that's not evidence.
Not a native speaker so i must be missing something, but how does that link, that reiterates the same story, prove that it is all a lie ?
That was my thought too. It seems that the author was trying to tell the story in such a way as to pull on the most heartstrings.
I live in a city, and if I hear incoherent screaming outside of my apartment, I ignore it. I figure calling 911 every night would eventually get me in trouble, so I just accept that loud, mentally ill homeless frequent my neighborhood at night.
I live in a city, and if I hear incoherent screaming outside of my apartment, I ignore it. I figure calling 911 every night would eventually get me in trouble, so I just accept that loud, mentally ill homeless frequent my neighborhood at night.
Then you've decided that you value your convenience over strangers' lives. As I said above, look into the Kitty Genovese murder, for example. That's your decision to make, but don't try to dress it up as something else.
> a lie (This is not what happened)
You're naive. Read up on the Kitty Genovese murder and similar incidents.
It's not even that people consciously decide they don't give a shit. They just assume that surely one of the dozens of other people within earshot will take care of it and save them the awkwardness and bother.
But everyone else is thinking the same thing. So no one takes care of it, and somebody dies.
You're naive. Read up on the Kitty Genovese murder and similar incidents.
It's not even that people consciously decide they don't give a shit. They just assume that surely one of the dozens of other people within earshot will take care of it and save them the awkwardness and bother.
But everyone else is thinking the same thing. So no one takes care of it, and somebody dies.
It's ruffling your feathers because you're unfamiliar with psychology. What you feel is heartless beavior is, in fact, rather predictable behavior in an urban environment.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
I'm not sure this is really bystander effect, that to me is a condition of "someone else will help" whilst these sorts of situations are "this isn't my problem". It's feeling that others are more capable vs. being cold-hearted.
> This is not what happened.
Tell us what did happen.
Tell us what did happen.
baron816(2)
People are assholes :(
I live in a city, and I hear people screaming incoherently outside my window on a nightly basis. This is because my neighborhood has a sizable homeless population.
Am I an asshole for not making nightly 911 calls to report this?
Am I an asshole for not making nightly 911 calls to report this?
One of the reasons I left the city and will never return; it drove me crazy. When I hear someone scream where I live now I know it is serious, I know who it is and I know that at least 5 other people already called the police (or ambulance/fire dep). It also rarely happens.
I am currently in this situation. It's case by case. Guy screaming "help, I'm dying!" I called 911. Two bums fighting over a bike? It will be over before the cruiser arrives.
how do you get any sleep? ocean machine?
We also, periodically but not on a particular schedule, put together a block BBQ where people can bring food, or not, and share a moment together to talk about what is going in or what they are worried about etc. Generally people respond well to the outreach, and as a consequence I know all of my neighbors on sight, and have shared experiences with many of them creating perhaps not a deep bond, but one which certainly gives anyone permission to approach and talk without an invitation.
It pays benefits in surprising ways, when our dog was terrified of a pile of beeping smoke detectors and ran off without us looking, one of our neighbors both recognized him, and knew us, so called us to tell us they had brought him in and we could pick him up when ever we wanted.
One of the families on our street has their grandmother living with them now. She is suffering some dementia like the woman in the article but everyone on the street knows her and I think keeps an eye out for her.
All from being neighborly and just walking around and talking to people.