Driving on the Autobahn(german-way.com)
german-way.com
Driving on the Autobahn
https://www.german-way.com/travel-and-tourism/driving-in-europe/driving/autobahn/driving-on-the-autobahn/
241 comments
>Is that safe?
Reminds me of a story a step dad told me... He was in Europe while in the military.I guess sometime in the 60's. It was late at night and him and his buddy were in one of those "tiny European" cars and not sober at all. Said they were doing nearly 100mph (as fast as it could go) and coming around a blind corner when they suddenly saw a police road block in the middle of the road. Unable to stop quickly enough, they lost control and ended up fish tailing off the road and out into a field. Unharmed thankfully. The police officers jogged over to them and asked if they were OK and apologized for the road block before telling them to stay safe and have a good night. There was no posted speed limit and drinking and driving was the norm apparently.
Reminds me of a story a step dad told me... He was in Europe while in the military.I guess sometime in the 60's. It was late at night and him and his buddy were in one of those "tiny European" cars and not sober at all. Said they were doing nearly 100mph (as fast as it could go) and coming around a blind corner when they suddenly saw a police road block in the middle of the road. Unable to stop quickly enough, they lost control and ended up fish tailing off the road and out into a field. Unharmed thankfully. The police officers jogged over to them and asked if they were OK and apologized for the road block before telling them to stay safe and have a good night. There was no posted speed limit and drinking and driving was the norm apparently.
alcohol limits were introduced in the 60s so that story sounds plausible
> sounds plausible
Additionally, as far as I understand, the U.S. military personnel has a special legal status almost anywhere outside of the U.S.
Additionally, as far as I understand, the U.S. military personnel has a special legal status almost anywhere outside of the U.S.
In Germany at the time for sure as legally Germany was an occupied territory but if the policemen would have thought it was illegal they would have handed them over to the MPs
Italy in 1998 wasn’t officially occupied AFAIK:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_...
Wow. I didn't know about the alcohol limits.
But what is even more amazing, safety belts were not standard back then and mandatory wearing of seat belts was only introduced in the 1970s.
So OP's narrator probably survived that accident with out any seat belts on.
But what is even more amazing, safety belts were not standard back then and mandatory wearing of seat belts was only introduced in the 1970s.
So OP's narrator probably survived that accident with out any seat belts on.
It wasn’t long ago in Croatia where the driver yelled at me NOT to put my seatbelt. It was only required for driver and forward passenger.
> Then I’d have slow down, move over, let them pass then try again.
That is neither required nor recommended and potentially dangerous. The correct protocol is to ignore pushy cars behind you and stick to your overtaking maneuver. But it is also questionable to even engage in overtaking if the car on the middle lane is so fast that overtaking takes such a long time.
That is neither required nor recommended and potentially dangerous. The correct protocol is to ignore pushy cars behind you and stick to your overtaking maneuver. But it is also questionable to even engage in overtaking if the car on the middle lane is so fast that overtaking takes such a long time.
> 120 in a Honda? Is that safe
The real problem would occur if you had to stop or slow down as quickly as a car that actually had real brakes, like say an AMG. But hey... it would be HUGELY hypocritical of me to say that you should Not have done that.
The real problem would occur if you had to stop or slow down as quickly as a car that actually had real brakes, like say an AMG. But hey... it would be HUGELY hypocritical of me to say that you should Not have done that.
I never understood how ‘good brakes’ make a difference as every car has brakes powerful enough to lock the wheels. Why isn’t it the ratio of the mass of the car to the size of the contact patch for the tires that is the overriding factor?
A lot more goes into braking than simply having enough clamping force to lock the wheels.
In a situation when you completely lock the wheels, you're trading the friction between the brake pads and brake discs, for the friction between the tires and the road surface. In other words, instead of the hydraulic clamping force on the discs, you're relying solely on the weight of the car. The interface between tire and road is not nearly as good as the interface between brake pads and brake discs, which wear to match each other exactly, as they're used.
So as a good rule of thumb, you never ever want to lock up your brakes. That's why anti-lock brakes are standard.
(The main exception is when driving on relatively deep and loose surfaces, such as sand or deep snow, where a locked tire builds up material in front of it.)
Undersized discs and pads have less thermal capacity, so they will tend to overheat and lose braking ability. A lot of lower-spec and economy cars will be perfectly capable emergency braking from full speed once, but you absolutely have to let the brakes cool off afterwards, especially if it has unventilated discs and rear drum brakes. That's fine, as long as you're aware of the limitations.
In comparison, a larger midrange car (such as a VW Passat) can reasonably handle repeated emergency braking situations without losing any significant amount of braking power, thanks to larger discs and pads.
There is also the matter of pedal feel, how confident the brakes feel or if they feel mushy and imprecise, and how the ABS system works.
So yes, of course the contact patch matters, but only if the brakes are adequately capable.
In a situation when you completely lock the wheels, you're trading the friction between the brake pads and brake discs, for the friction between the tires and the road surface. In other words, instead of the hydraulic clamping force on the discs, you're relying solely on the weight of the car. The interface between tire and road is not nearly as good as the interface between brake pads and brake discs, which wear to match each other exactly, as they're used.
So as a good rule of thumb, you never ever want to lock up your brakes. That's why anti-lock brakes are standard.
(The main exception is when driving on relatively deep and loose surfaces, such as sand or deep snow, where a locked tire builds up material in front of it.)
Undersized discs and pads have less thermal capacity, so they will tend to overheat and lose braking ability. A lot of lower-spec and economy cars will be perfectly capable emergency braking from full speed once, but you absolutely have to let the brakes cool off afterwards, especially if it has unventilated discs and rear drum brakes. That's fine, as long as you're aware of the limitations.
In comparison, a larger midrange car (such as a VW Passat) can reasonably handle repeated emergency braking situations without losing any significant amount of braking power, thanks to larger discs and pads.
There is also the matter of pedal feel, how confident the brakes feel or if they feel mushy and imprecise, and how the ABS system works.
So yes, of course the contact patch matters, but only if the brakes are adequately capable.
Mass to contact area is a major factor, but it's not the only one.
Locking your brakes is not the fastest way to stop. What you want is to apply the maximum friction to the road, this means your brakes have to be letting the disks travel, and at very high speeds your disks and callipers get very hot, very quickly, at which point they stop supplying nearly as much stopping power, and you might in fact no longer be able to lock your brakes.
Anti-lock brakes (ABS) are an improvement, because they mean that if you over-brake (locking your brakes) they release them until the wheel starts rotating again, before re-applying the pressure. They're better than locking your brakes, but they're actually less effective than holding your brakes at the optimal pressure. They're just a lot easier to use than it is to apply that pressure manually (particularly as the optimum pressure changes as your speed does and the heat of your disks and callipers).
Locking your brakes is not the fastest way to stop. What you want is to apply the maximum friction to the road, this means your brakes have to be letting the disks travel, and at very high speeds your disks and callipers get very hot, very quickly, at which point they stop supplying nearly as much stopping power, and you might in fact no longer be able to lock your brakes.
Anti-lock brakes (ABS) are an improvement, because they mean that if you over-brake (locking your brakes) they release them until the wheel starts rotating again, before re-applying the pressure. They're better than locking your brakes, but they're actually less effective than holding your brakes at the optimal pressure. They're just a lot easier to use than it is to apply that pressure manually (particularly as the optimum pressure changes as your speed does and the heat of your disks and callipers).
Anti lock braking and wheel surface contact will make big differences between cars in braking behavior. Those AMG not only have better brakes, with possibly better software controlling ABS, but also wider tires. With formulas [1]
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braking_distance
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braking_distance
Some also have active aerodynamic braking, sports tyres have softer compounds with more grip which results in better braking and usually larger engines also provide more engine breaking.
Engine braking is completely irrelevant on a RWD car during hard braking. The weight transfer means barely any braking is needed on the rear wheels, aside from a token amount to keep the car going straight.
I don't think hard locks on the wheels are a good thing.
Well, everything is relative - there are a lot of situations where the AMG brakes are not strong enough as well and you crash into someone anyway.
> People here are amazed when I tell that story, 120 in a Honda?
It took me a moment to get why that's supposed to be such a feat.
But it's miles-per-hour. So you were doing ~190 km/h. Yeah, that's about the top speed I would expect from such a car.
The few times when I was doing that speed in a Mitsubishi, I didn't have a problem with steadyness but I had the feeling the car was being lifted up due to the air currents.
Quite a strange feeling becoming airborne in a non flying vehicle.
It took me a moment to get why that's supposed to be such a feat.
But it's miles-per-hour. So you were doing ~190 km/h. Yeah, that's about the top speed I would expect from such a car.
The few times when I was doing that speed in a Mitsubishi, I didn't have a problem with steadyness but I had the feeling the car was being lifted up due to the air currents.
Quite a strange feeling becoming airborne in a non flying vehicle.
> I had the feeling the car was being lifted up due to the air currents.
Yup. It is a bit similar as in a plane wing: In a wing, there is an airflow below the wing, and another airflow above the wing. The wing is curved so that the air flowing above needs to travel a longer path, therefore it travels faster. Faster travel translates into lower pressure, therefore there is a pressure differential which lifts the wing up.
This is similar for a car, which is curved as well. Only, because the bottom side of the car is relatively close to the ground, there is less airflow which increases the pressure differential upwards.
This aerodynamic feature is also the reason why racing cars have features which cause that the airstream presses them into the ground. Without that, it would be easy to lose control.
Yup. It is a bit similar as in a plane wing: In a wing, there is an airflow below the wing, and another airflow above the wing. The wing is curved so that the air flowing above needs to travel a longer path, therefore it travels faster. Faster travel translates into lower pressure, therefore there is a pressure differential which lifts the wing up.
This is similar for a car, which is curved as well. Only, because the bottom side of the car is relatively close to the ground, there is less airflow which increases the pressure differential upwards.
This aerodynamic feature is also the reason why racing cars have features which cause that the airstream presses them into the ground. Without that, it would be easy to lose control.
> 120 [mph] in a Honda? Is that safe? All I know is it felt rock steady,
I have driven my Honda Odyssey a number of times between 105 to 110 mph without any issues. But it doesn't have sufficient power to get to 120 mph in a reasonable distance.
I have driven my Honda Odyssey a number of times between 105 to 110 mph without any issues. But it doesn't have sufficient power to get to 120 mph in a reasonable distance.
"People here are amazed when I tell that story, 120 in a Honda? Is that safe?"
Just watch out for the crummy all season tires cars in the US have. I don't trust those.
Otherwise no problem.
Just watch out for the crummy all season tires cars in the US have. I don't trust those.
Otherwise no problem.
> the crummy all season tires cars in the US have
They're fine for the allowed speeds on US highways. Obviously if you're going to be driving at high autobahn speeds you need tires that are rated for those speeds. (Although I've never seen a tire in the US that wasn't rated for at least 110 mph, which would be fine for a lot of autobahns given the 80 mph typical speed mentioned in the article.)
They're fine for the allowed speeds on US highways. Obviously if you're going to be driving at high autobahn speeds you need tires that are rated for those speeds. (Although I've never seen a tire in the US that wasn't rated for at least 110 mph, which would be fine for a lot of autobahns given the 80 mph typical speed mentioned in the article.)
I believe it. In the mid-90's, my brother and I took our Mom's Mazda 323 hatchback up to 130 MPH on a US interstate.
When you have a vehicle capable of 3 digit speed you would be surprised how “planted” it feels at speed. If the car you drive feels unsafe at speed you should probably slow down.
Owned a 13-sec motor swapped CRX that could do 110 in 3rd gear- so yes, I believe you. It was N/A and had a B18A. I’m guessing you had a B16 ;)
It's interesting to hear my mechanic friends talk about much heavier newer cars are now with all the safety features and reinforced doors and quarter panels.
One of my buddies held onto his old souped up CRX for years until the DMV forced him to get a newer car. He said the same thing. Rock solid at high speeds and still managed 35-40 mpg on a regular basis.
One of my buddies held onto his old souped up CRX for years until the DMV forced him to get a newer car. He said the same thing. Rock solid at high speeds and still managed 35-40 mpg on a regular basis.
> 120 in a Honda? Is that safe?
It's just as safe as 80 mph, you will be very dead in either case if you wrap it around a tree.
It's just as safe as 80 mph, you will be very dead in either case if you wrap it around a tree.
Most speed tests on TV shows are on airfields or dedicated motor racing circuits with little in the way of elevation changes. Motorways (autobahn) are different.
In the TV show the runway runs out. The top speed is more to do with the length of the runway than the performance of the car.
I used to drive up to Scotland in a V6 Renault Espace. Due to crazy boss in the passenger seat sticking to the speed limit was not acceptable. We had lots of expensive tech gear in the back in very heavy flight cases. At two in the morning, with walls of ice and snow either side of the road, in something that had the aerodynamics of a bus the speedometer was stuck at 150 mph, mile after mile. Even allowing for a 10% error in the speedometer reading that was still faster than what a sane person who cared about holding onto their license would ever wish to go at in the UK.
Like your Honda, if I tell this story people question me as if I am bumping up the numbers a bit. "Are you sure?" "Renault Espace?" But yes, a speedometer speed of 150 mph (not to be confused with actual speed or kilometers) was definitely achievable, not for a few brief seconds but for tens of miles on the big downhill in to Scotland.
30 miles of empty road is different to a 3 kilometer runway and, if there is added gravity assistance, there is a much higher terminal velocity that can be reached than anything TV shows elude to. This is the bit people don't get.
Almost everything in the company fleet had a V6 engine. As well as buying cars tax efficiently the boss liked his booze so there were practical reasons why I was the idiot at the wheel. The Celica GT4 was good for 150 mph everywhere, no hills or suspicious speed claims needed. The true surprise was the one lame car, a Ford Escort diesel. This pre-dated the Ford Focus and the engine didn't have performance to boast about. Yet that would get a speedometer 140 mph no problems, plus the handling was great.
My last drive was when I quit that job and needed to move my stuff. I had a mere-mortals car hired for the day with flat spot tyres, play in the steering and lots of rattling things. It didn't even start first time. That wandered across the road a bit and did not feel safe.
After that I decided that normal driving was intolerably dull and, since I had not got caught or killed, quit driving for good. I made the humble bicycle my thing. On the bike I can go at max speed and effort everywhere, pulse fully quickened, at the limits of tyre adhesion and braking ability, getting that thrill of speed but doing no more than 20 mph or so. I don't have to kill my soul 'sitting in traffic' or inching towards traffic lights that go red as I get there. I just prefer continual movement and not being strapped into a tin box.
I still have not driven thus far this century. I am now old enough to not recommend driving idiot style. But then there are contradictions in the cult of the car. Performance sells cars but that performance is only enjoyed by proxy through TV shows, video games, motorsport and films. My friends who have driven nearly every day this century have not pushed it for real. Yet they have cars as bit as fast as what I was driving two decades ago. "All the gear but no idea" has been normalised.
In the TV show the runway runs out. The top speed is more to do with the length of the runway than the performance of the car.
I used to drive up to Scotland in a V6 Renault Espace. Due to crazy boss in the passenger seat sticking to the speed limit was not acceptable. We had lots of expensive tech gear in the back in very heavy flight cases. At two in the morning, with walls of ice and snow either side of the road, in something that had the aerodynamics of a bus the speedometer was stuck at 150 mph, mile after mile. Even allowing for a 10% error in the speedometer reading that was still faster than what a sane person who cared about holding onto their license would ever wish to go at in the UK.
Like your Honda, if I tell this story people question me as if I am bumping up the numbers a bit. "Are you sure?" "Renault Espace?" But yes, a speedometer speed of 150 mph (not to be confused with actual speed or kilometers) was definitely achievable, not for a few brief seconds but for tens of miles on the big downhill in to Scotland.
30 miles of empty road is different to a 3 kilometer runway and, if there is added gravity assistance, there is a much higher terminal velocity that can be reached than anything TV shows elude to. This is the bit people don't get.
Almost everything in the company fleet had a V6 engine. As well as buying cars tax efficiently the boss liked his booze so there were practical reasons why I was the idiot at the wheel. The Celica GT4 was good for 150 mph everywhere, no hills or suspicious speed claims needed. The true surprise was the one lame car, a Ford Escort diesel. This pre-dated the Ford Focus and the engine didn't have performance to boast about. Yet that would get a speedometer 140 mph no problems, plus the handling was great.
My last drive was when I quit that job and needed to move my stuff. I had a mere-mortals car hired for the day with flat spot tyres, play in the steering and lots of rattling things. It didn't even start first time. That wandered across the road a bit and did not feel safe.
After that I decided that normal driving was intolerably dull and, since I had not got caught or killed, quit driving for good. I made the humble bicycle my thing. On the bike I can go at max speed and effort everywhere, pulse fully quickened, at the limits of tyre adhesion and braking ability, getting that thrill of speed but doing no more than 20 mph or so. I don't have to kill my soul 'sitting in traffic' or inching towards traffic lights that go red as I get there. I just prefer continual movement and not being strapped into a tin box.
I still have not driven thus far this century. I am now old enough to not recommend driving idiot style. But then there are contradictions in the cult of the car. Performance sells cars but that performance is only enjoyed by proxy through TV shows, video games, motorsport and films. My friends who have driven nearly every day this century have not pushed it for real. Yet they have cars as bit as fast as what I was driving two decades ago. "All the gear but no idea" has been normalised.
> Somewhere there’s Honda with a German owners manual in the US.
The strangest thing for a new US owner would be if it was diesel.
The strangest thing for a new US owner would be if it was diesel.
Did it really have mph on the speedometer?
Considering it was a civic hatch (which is a model that isn’t sold in the US iirc), i bet it was in kmh and the parent just conerted it to mph for the HN audience.
I assumed it was a US market car since it was sold through AAFES to US service members. It was mph and kph though. And there were a fair numbere in the US, I haven’t seen any newish ones lately though.
European cars, or those built for the European market generally have both MPH and KPH on their speedometers.
My '92 imported (from Japan) Legacy Turbo Estate (man I loved that machine) had both sets of speeds.
My '92 imported (from Japan) Legacy Turbo Estate (man I loved that machine) had both sets of speeds.
Only UK models have both AFAIK. Continental European cars have km/h only.
I've seen plenty of Golf's and Mercs (left hand drive, built in continental Europe) with both.
I've seen it on German cars in the US, but not in Germany.
Not standard.
Probably depends on the manufacurer.
From last ~10 or so rental cars in EU can't remeber last time I saw one with mph on the dial.
From last ~10 or so rental cars in EU can't remeber last time I saw one with mph on the dial.
A few things the article might have added:
* When getting on the Autobahn, there will always be a "Beschleunigungsstreifen" or acceleration lane. Use it to get to speed while watching the traffic on your left (while signalling, needless to say), then merge in.
* When getting off the Autobahn ("Ausfahrt", ha, always on the right (with < 5 exceptions)), there will be 3 beacons with 3, 2, 1 white stripes on a blue background indicating 300, 200, 100 metres to the beginning of the deceleration lane. Start signalling at the 300m sign, and do not slow down until you've changed onto the deceleration lane (as otherwise you'd force those behind you to slow down & reaccelerate).
* As mentioned, do not overtake on the right. However, if the highway splits (or at an exit), the broken white line dividing the lanes will change: wider and with shorter gaps. Here, one may overtake on the right.
* When getting on the Autobahn, there will always be a "Beschleunigungsstreifen" or acceleration lane. Use it to get to speed while watching the traffic on your left (while signalling, needless to say), then merge in.
* When getting off the Autobahn ("Ausfahrt", ha, always on the right (with < 5 exceptions)), there will be 3 beacons with 3, 2, 1 white stripes on a blue background indicating 300, 200, 100 metres to the beginning of the deceleration lane. Start signalling at the 300m sign, and do not slow down until you've changed onto the deceleration lane (as otherwise you'd force those behind you to slow down & reaccelerate).
* As mentioned, do not overtake on the right. However, if the highway splits (or at an exit), the broken white line dividing the lanes will change: wider and with shorter gaps. Here, one may overtake on the right.
"When getting on the Autobahn, there will always be a "Beschleunigungsstreifen" or acceleration lane. Use it to get to speed while watching the traffic on your left (while signalling, needless to say), then merge in."
And use it to actually accelerate. A lot of people are very reluctant to step on the throttle. I always try to match speed of traffic or go even a little faster before I merge. Much easier to look forward than having to worry about people behind.
And use it to actually accelerate. A lot of people are very reluctant to step on the throttle. I always try to match speed of traffic or go even a little faster before I merge. Much easier to look forward than having to worry about people behind.
I'm in the US, but it's terrifying trailing behind someone doing 30mph in the acceleration lane trying to merge into 70mph+ highway traffic. I don't understand their mindset, or if they realize how dangerous that is.
The crazy thing is that often these people have 150+ hp cars that can accelerate really well if you push the throttle just a little bit.
Reluctance doesn't do it justice. During my driving exam I had to dodge someone merging on the Autobahn with less than 30 kph. Almost suicidal.
I was driving to Paris from Frankfurt and I found a rest stop that had a very very short on ramp, most cars couldnt get close to speed on it. Completely unusual but they do exist. I had rented a BMW 540i so I got to speed relatively quickly. I have also seen frustrated drivers pass on the right where they shouldn't.
Not everything is perfect on the Autobahn
Not everything is perfect on the Autobahn
If you can't safely merge use the emergency lane if there is one and get off it as soon as you can, this can get you fined but it is safer than a merge with too much speed difference. The proper way to do it is to anticipate the fact that you can't make it in time and to wait at the start of the on-ramp until you can safely merge.
"Best of European dashcam" youtube channel is lots of fun (and not fun): grumpy German truckers, East EU racing, UK drivers who have no chill.
>[...] and do not slow down until you've changed onto the deceleration lane
That's just simply wrong. I can name (well, show) you dozens of counter examples where the lane is just too short, even if you'd only drive with 100 kph.
That's just simply wrong. I can name (well, show) you dozens of counter examples where the lane is just too short, even if you'd only drive with 100 kph.
The German Autobahn is infamous in Denmark for this feature. We're spoiled with much longer acceleration/deceleration lanes (with few exceptions).
Still, it's a good rule of thumb to follow when possible.
Still, it's a good rule of thumb to follow when possible.
It's insane when you're used to the lanes in Denmark. You have to really step on the brake, and if it has a sign that says "verkorted ausfahrt" (or something similar), you know that you either have to slow down well before turning in, or use all available grip (and electronic systems) to brake.
> do not overtake on the right
how is it defined ? suppose someone is driving 100 km/h on the left lane while the right lane is free and you approach from behind doing 150- should you stay at the left and wait for slow car to move right ?
how is it defined ? suppose someone is driving 100 km/h on the left lane while the right lane is free and you approach from behind doing 150- should you stay at the left and wait for slow car to move right ?
You flash your headlights at them. If they still don't move that's what your horn is for.
All joking aside though ... you don't pass on the right, so if they refuse to move you need to slow the heck down and follow.
All joking aside though ... you don't pass on the right, so if they refuse to move you need to slow the heck down and follow.
Believe me, after a few seconds of waiting I always pass slowly on the right. It might not be legally perfect, but is the accepted way of handling drivers that are an obstacle on the left.
Both taking over on the right and not moving to the left (when you can) are traffic offenses and will be fined when observed by (often unmarked) police cars. In the Netherlands, where there are similar rules, driving closely behind another car, not observing the two seconds distance rule, is also a traffic offense.
Yes, because that person shouldn't have been in the left lane then. The law says you should drive in the rightmost lane possible.
Yes. If you're not in a real hurry, move left and let somebody else prompt the less observant driver to change lanes.
You'd be surprised how effective a fast (rear) approaching car with the lights flashing is...
You are not allowed to pass on the right, but they are not allowed to stay on the left blocking you, either ("Nötigung").
Yes, the law is keep right when possible.
Ah the no speed limit sign!
I rented a 5-series and drove from Frankfurt to Schwangau via Munich last December. I've been driving in the US for 4 years now, and can tell that the Autobahn is only as stressful as you want it to be. There are multiple lanes, and if you're in the leftmost lane, you'll be tailgated by those with better cars even while doing 230 kmph. If you're not into that kind of stuff, just stay in one of the right lanes and enjoy the view (otherwise you better stay extremely focused on the road!).
Driving on the Autobahn also made me realize that buying a car for its speed is extremely pointless in the Bay Area (or any place that imposes speed limits), because one would never be able to experience the thrill that comes out of pushing the gas pedal for 30 seconds straight.
I rented a 5-series and drove from Frankfurt to Schwangau via Munich last December. I've been driving in the US for 4 years now, and can tell that the Autobahn is only as stressful as you want it to be. There are multiple lanes, and if you're in the leftmost lane, you'll be tailgated by those with better cars even while doing 230 kmph. If you're not into that kind of stuff, just stay in one of the right lanes and enjoy the view (otherwise you better stay extremely focused on the road!).
Driving on the Autobahn also made me realize that buying a car for its speed is extremely pointless in the Bay Area (or any place that imposes speed limits), because one would never be able to experience the thrill that comes out of pushing the gas pedal for 30 seconds straight.
I live in Germany and get to drive on the no-speed-limit Autobahn regularly. It's fun! But what many newcomers or tourists fail to understand is that you can't just go and drive 230 km/h just because there's no speed limit. Whether or not you can safely drive 230 km/h hugely depends on circumstances, mainly on how dense the traffic is. If the left lane is almost permanently completely empty: go for it! If the left lane is regularly used for passing people in the middle lane, then driving 230 km/h makes you a dangerous amateur who's actively endangering other people's lives.
Unfortunately, people who've never driven the Autobahn before don't usually get this and some seem to get in a blind haze and just push push push until their car is at their speed limit. That can be so stupid and dangerous. Use your common sense, please.
Unfortunately, people who've never driven the Autobahn before don't usually get this and some seem to get in a blind haze and just push push push until their car is at their speed limit. That can be so stupid and dangerous. Use your common sense, please.
Plenty of Germans who are neither tourists nor newcomers also don't get this. But compared to Poland, Romania, Greece, Lithuania and Latvia driving in Germany is pretty safe.
Interesting. My favourite is the A5 near Frankfurt with 4 Lanes on Sunday evening. Usually the whole traffic is on the left lanes. When I hit the end of this "traffic jam" I'm using the rightest (!) lane to slow down from 200 km/h down to around 120 km/h to match the left lanes because nearly nobody is driving there.
If I'm not driving "gemütlich" (like not in hurry), I stick to 120-130 km/h. For faster travels my personal enduring maximum is 180 km/h. Everything above is very exausting (and fuel consuming).
Regarding "safe" driving: There is probably a lot more than traffic. A45 has some unlimited sections with three lanes, but the curves are strong. With 200+ km/h (if you dare), you'll feel strong G-forces. Thrilling but also dangerous!
My personal advices would be: Observe how traffic works, see some idiots pulling left without using blinkers. It's often possible to tell if someone is going to change the lane in the next seconds.
Monitor the traffic with your mirrors. Don't underestimate speed and keep track of the cars near to you. Especially on the left lane you have to manage looking forward and into the mirror.
And last: Drive only as fast as you can. Cars tend to get noisy or tend to steer left or right. Be honest to yourself, if you feel that the car is flying, very sensitive to any steering or you simply clutch the steering wheel, you are on/above your limit.
However: The memes are true: On a lot days, it's not even possible to maintain speed around 130 km/h (probably depending on your route)
If I'm not driving "gemütlich" (like not in hurry), I stick to 120-130 km/h. For faster travels my personal enduring maximum is 180 km/h. Everything above is very exausting (and fuel consuming).
Regarding "safe" driving: There is probably a lot more than traffic. A45 has some unlimited sections with three lanes, but the curves are strong. With 200+ km/h (if you dare), you'll feel strong G-forces. Thrilling but also dangerous!
My personal advices would be: Observe how traffic works, see some idiots pulling left without using blinkers. It's often possible to tell if someone is going to change the lane in the next seconds.
Monitor the traffic with your mirrors. Don't underestimate speed and keep track of the cars near to you. Especially on the left lane you have to manage looking forward and into the mirror.
And last: Drive only as fast as you can. Cars tend to get noisy or tend to steer left or right. Be honest to yourself, if you feel that the car is flying, very sensitive to any steering or you simply clutch the steering wheel, you are on/above your limit.
However: The memes are true: On a lot days, it's not even possible to maintain speed around 130 km/h (probably depending on your route)
You're right, one should obviously drive per the road (traffic + weather) conditions. I personally wouldn't dare doing 200kmph+ unless both the left lanes are almost empty; passing someone at that speed makes me nervous.
> Driving on the Autobahn also made me realize that buying a car for its speed is extremely pointless in the Bay Area
There is plenty of fun to be had of route 1, in 1st or 2nd gear, with a few horsepower underneath of you. Don't drive beyond your limit and route 1 is incredible.
There is plenty of fun to be had of route 1, in 1st or 2nd gear, with a few horsepower underneath of you. Don't drive beyond your limit and route 1 is incredible.
I've driven on route 1 from Mendocino to LA and I agree with you on that it's incredible.
>buying a car for its speed
I was talking about speed however.
>buying a car for its speed
I was talking about speed however.
> buying a car for its speed is extremely pointless in the Bay Area
The engine sizes on base models on US cars drives me bonkers.
Why yes, if a 1.4 or 1.6L engine works in the alps and 130 speed limits, WTF wouldn’t it’s it not an option in 55mph flat country?
The engine sizes on base models on US cars drives me bonkers.
Why yes, if a 1.4 or 1.6L engine works in the alps and 130 speed limits, WTF wouldn’t it’s it not an option in 55mph flat country?
The Lamborghinis make you feel like you are crawling, even at 250kph
One time I was casually driving near Frankfurt with 150kmh (there's enough room on the A5) while a Lamborghini slowly caught up with me on the left lane. After a couple of seconds, the driver thought it was too boring and decided to accelerate. In the blink of an eye, he was so far away, you could barely even see it. The pebble it threw into my newly changed windscreen is a story for another thread...
> There are multiple lanes, and if you're in the leftmost lane, you'll be tailgated by those with better cars even while doing 230 kmph.
The leftmost lane is not just for fast cars. It's for every car intending to drive faster than the car in front of it.
The leftmost lane is not just for fast cars. It's for every car intending to drive faster than the car in front of it.
I was similarly impressed by the autostrada in Italy. They do have speed limits, but the cops don't seem to enforce them unless you're driving a truck.
They do enforce the limits and they will even seize your car if you are going far over the speed limit.
Ouch. Guess I got lucky.
Regardless of how much "stress" you want, you should always stay in the left-most lane that you can be in unless you are overtaking somebody. I used to go 220km/h or 130mp/h in a modified Golf 2 back in the day and even at that speed you should always move over if you can. If someone is tailgating you, you are in the wrong lane.
Disclaimer: I am German.
I absolutely hate driving on the Autobahn in Germany. The pure stress and the amount of assholes you encounter is absolutely astonishing.
I have driven cars before in other countries, including the “chaotic” Italy and the US, and it was always a more pleasant experience.
I absolutely hate driving on the Autobahn in Germany. The pure stress and the amount of assholes you encounter is absolutely astonishing.
I have driven cars before in other countries, including the “chaotic” Italy and the US, and it was always a more pleasant experience.
Your post seems odd. The autobahn is generally regarded as some of the best highway experience there is when it comes to other road users.
As someone who spends too much time going slower than the rest of traffic in grossly overloaded light trucks I think I have some authority when I say that being a road obstruction to the point where people pull dick moves to pass you is a great way to turn everyone else into an asshole make driving stressful. As long as you're not trying to go a ton slower than everyone else in your lane (forcing them to rapidly merge left or slow down, wait for a gap and move left cutting someone off) driving in your lane shouldn't be too stressful.
As someone who spends too much time going slower than the rest of traffic in grossly overloaded light trucks I think I have some authority when I say that being a road obstruction to the point where people pull dick moves to pass you is a great way to turn everyone else into an asshole make driving stressful. As long as you're not trying to go a ton slower than everyone else in your lane (forcing them to rapidly merge left or slow down, wait for a gap and move left cutting someone off) driving in your lane shouldn't be too stressful.
> Your post seems odd. The autobahn is generally regarded as some of the best highway experience there is when it comes to other road users
I drive Autobahn both in Germany and Netherlands and I can tell you that driving in Germany is a 100 times more stressfull compared to NL! As soon as you cross the border to Germany everyone channels their inner race car driver and it becomes stressful. Driving in NL is much more relaxed and laid back.
I drive Autobahn both in Germany and Netherlands and I can tell you that driving in Germany is a 100 times more stressfull compared to NL! As soon as you cross the border to Germany everyone channels their inner race car driver and it becomes stressful. Driving in NL is much more relaxed and laid back.
Well, driving in most countries but Germany is more relaxing because everyone goes at the same low speed.
You can have the same experience on a German Autobahn by staying in the right lane. You'll go at the same low speed as the trucks, nice and cozy, straight, without much worries or concentration needed.
Now, if you want to go faster, you do have the option (unlike in other countries), but then you'll have to be a bit more careful and dynamic, because it is quite possible that a car approaches you from behind faster than you approach a stationary target (if the car goes 250 km/h while you go 120 km/h, say). Of course that requires keeping an eye on not only the traffic in front, but also the traffic behind, and getting out of the way when required, so you have to change lanes quite frequently.
It is somewhat more stressful (if you choose to leave the slow lane), but that's the price you pay.
Furthermore, after a while, all this becomes second nature, and rather stress free, as long as everyone follows the rule. (What remains stressful are drivers not following the rules, eg not signalling before changing lanes, or changing into your lane when you're about to overtake them, etc.)
You can have the same experience on a German Autobahn by staying in the right lane. You'll go at the same low speed as the trucks, nice and cozy, straight, without much worries or concentration needed.
Now, if you want to go faster, you do have the option (unlike in other countries), but then you'll have to be a bit more careful and dynamic, because it is quite possible that a car approaches you from behind faster than you approach a stationary target (if the car goes 250 km/h while you go 120 km/h, say). Of course that requires keeping an eye on not only the traffic in front, but also the traffic behind, and getting out of the way when required, so you have to change lanes quite frequently.
It is somewhat more stressful (if you choose to leave the slow lane), but that's the price you pay.
Furthermore, after a while, all this becomes second nature, and rather stress free, as long as everyone follows the rule. (What remains stressful are drivers not following the rules, eg not signalling before changing lanes, or changing into your lane when you're about to overtake them, etc.)
> Of course that requires keeping an eye on not only the traffic in front, but also the traffic behind, and getting out of the way when required, so you have to change lanes quite frequently.
This hits the nail on the head. I know people who complain intensely about Autobahn driving and when I ride with them all of them have very poor viewing technique ("Blicktechnik") and are the kind of driver that's rather oblivious to anything that happens on the road that isn't squarely in front of them. Of course, with these predispositions, just things like merging or changing lanes become stressful each time. You have to be able to do both on the Autobahn, so Autobahn = very stressful for them.
This hits the nail on the head. I know people who complain intensely about Autobahn driving and when I ride with them all of them have very poor viewing technique ("Blicktechnik") and are the kind of driver that's rather oblivious to anything that happens on the road that isn't squarely in front of them. Of course, with these predispositions, just things like merging or changing lanes become stressful each time. You have to be able to do both on the Autobahn, so Autobahn = very stressful for them.
Trucks go at 90 kph IIRC, so going on the right lane with them only makes sense if you’re eco-conscious (or stingy) and want to burn as little fuel as possible. Here in Poland the speed limit is 140 kph, and most people either obey that or go a little over, so you can have relatively smooth and stress-free drive even in the left lane.
Since we're talking about stress, let's talk about rechts vor links in residential areas... =)
http://crankydriver.com/word/rechts-vor-links/
http://crankydriver.com/word/rechts-vor-links/
I have opposite experience, as soon as I go to NL, I constantly have to watch out for drivers cutting in, watch the speed limit carefully, road is more congested. Also it's sometimes too "boring" to drive, you have to watch not to sleep. Driving from Poland to Netherlands I can say Polish autobahn is the best. Least roadworks, least slowdowns to 80, least people cutting you when you try to pass, highest average speed (constant 140km/h). Only disadvantage - driving once through whole Poland costs as much as yearly vignette in Switzerland.
Get a ticket for 4kph over the limit in NL should fix that relax for you
Yeah 4kph over results in a slap on the wrist in Germany. Traffic fines get expensive quickly in the Netherlands! A simple parking ticket is ~95 euros >.<
I'm an American that has driven in Germany over the past 20 years and I can sympathize with my German friend up top.
It's changed, and I'm sure if OP was less polite he'd mention the influx of beat-to-shit vehicles from the east that can now drive through western Europe and don't follow the rules as well.
And the trucks from Poland. So, so many trucks from Poland.
It's changed, and I'm sure if OP was less polite he'd mention the influx of beat-to-shit vehicles from the east that can now drive through western Europe and don't follow the rules as well.
And the trucks from Poland. So, so many trucks from Poland.
The trucks have very calm and largely rule-abiding drivers though. Many of them are just Polish companies doing Western European transports because they are cheaper. But the Polish small transporters... On a drive two weeks ago I've had several overtake on the right (which is illegal) and recklessly merge into small gaps in the left lane in thick traffic. All lanes have minor speed variations in that kind of traffic and that kind of behavior just makes things worse for everyone else.
The density of dick drivers is generally pretty high on the Autobahn. BMW and Audi drivers tend to be the worst. Actual proper sports cars (except Lamborghinis and other Mafia-appeal cars) are the fast cars with the nicest drivers.
The density of dick drivers is generally pretty high on the Autobahn. BMW and Audi drivers tend to be the worst. Actual proper sports cars (except Lamborghinis and other Mafia-appeal cars) are the fast cars with the nicest drivers.
The trucks are from Poland because Polish drivers are cheaper than German drivers. So that's a lot of German loads hauled between German companies with Polish trucks and drivers just for cost cutting reasons.
Yes, have noticed this too. Love when trucks try to pass each others, one going 80 kmh and the other 81. Blocking two lanes completely for 10 minutes.
One of my great experiences of last year was driving a giant snake-like Audi on the autobahn while listening to Kraftwerk, but muh dude has a point. Stuff can get pretty intense, especially up in the crowded regions of the Ruhr. I actually trusted most of the other drivers because their behavior was precise rather than foolhardy and because I know about the ridiculous $4000 training program for the Führerschein, but those would have looked like real dick moves if done in any other part of the world.
For my money, best driving experience for a country is Spain. First class roads and drivers. Not too intense.
For my money, best driving experience for a country is Spain. First class roads and drivers. Not too intense.
Giant snake-like Audi?
Like a modified limousine Audi, or?
I can't picture what you are describing as I don't think the A8 qualifies as snake-like, does it?
Piqued my curiosity for sure :)
Like a modified limousine Audi, or?
I can't picture what you are describing as I don't think the A8 qualifies as snake-like, does it?
Piqued my curiosity for sure :)
Try driving it in their bomb-shelter parking garages or turning around on one of their raised agricultural dirt roads; it's like driving a big black snake. They don't look real big in America, but for Europe an A8 is bloody hyooge.
I've never driven an A8, and it definitely looks like a very big car. I just thought that you were referring to something else.
But yeah, I can imagine that a car that big is hard to maneuver pretty much anywhere.
But yeah, I can imagine that a car that big is hard to maneuver pretty much anywhere.
It was OK on the autobahn, and mostly OK in cities, but there was a lot of car behind me. Had an odd stance compared to other big cars I've driven (mostly old 60s stuff like an Olds Jetstar or pickup trucks); felt very snakey.
To some extent, you can adapt your driving style to avoid getting stressed. It doesn't work in every situation but when I want to avoid stress on an autobahn with 3 lanes I try to establish a common speed (e.g. ~120kph) for the middle lane by following someone who drives with a very constant speed.
That way we can pass the trucks (right lane) and the racers on the left lane can do whatever they are up to. Sure, when there are no trucks around, I switch to the right lane too.
In my experience, this doesn't make you a whole lot slower (comparing end-to-end travel time), but the stress and gas consumption is quite a bit lower (compared to driving mostly on the highspeed left lane).
That way we can pass the trucks (right lane) and the racers on the left lane can do whatever they are up to. Sure, when there are no trucks around, I switch to the right lane too.
In my experience, this doesn't make you a whole lot slower (comparing end-to-end travel time), but the stress and gas consumption is quite a bit lower (compared to driving mostly on the highspeed left lane).
I'm from Belgium, and every time time I can I go to Germany to drive on the Autobahn. If you say there are a lot of assholes in Germany, try and drive in Belgium, nobody can drive here and everybody drives on the left and doesn't have a general idea of driver around you. For example:
When I drive in Germany on the left lane, and there are 2 lanes blocked by trucks, and another car wants to pass them on the left lane, they will see me and wait (or even break). They know I can't break that fast and will create an accident.
In Belgium, you can drive on the left lane, and somebody merges into the left lane 10 m before you and keep going 90kmh on the left lane creating a traffic jam and unnecessary breaking.
This is what I like about german drivers, they see their environment and know their (and other drivers) location in the traffic.
Also, move to the right rule, it looks like 90% of the people follow it perfectly, in Belgium everybody drives on the second lane.
Spain is the second best country I've driven in. Croatia is also fine.
When I drive in Germany on the left lane, and there are 2 lanes blocked by trucks, and another car wants to pass them on the left lane, they will see me and wait (or even break). They know I can't break that fast and will create an accident.
In Belgium, you can drive on the left lane, and somebody merges into the left lane 10 m before you and keep going 90kmh on the left lane creating a traffic jam and unnecessary breaking.
This is what I like about german drivers, they see their environment and know their (and other drivers) location in the traffic.
Also, move to the right rule, it looks like 90% of the people follow it perfectly, in Belgium everybody drives on the second lane.
Spain is the second best country I've driven in. Croatia is also fine.
I can vouch for the ahole thing. The German autobahn brings out the worst in people. Road rage is a thing and you'll see plenty of of people putting themselves and others at risk by basically doing all the things this article points out you shouldn't be doing like passing on the right, driving close behind your bumper (while flashing lights), etc. Idiots are of course a thing in any country but the increased speeds just makes things a lot more noticeable.
While most German drivers are very disciplined, not all of them are and there are plenty of irresponsible people treating the autobahn as their personal racing circuit. Also, not all drivers are actually German or necessarily that experienced driving very fast. The combination of idiots and fast cars is kind of predictably bad. Accidents at high speeds tend to be fatal.
Despite this, it's not as dangerous as you might think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r.... Germany is doing better than e.g. the US or my home country (Netherlands). The reason is very simply that people on the autobahn tend to pay attention to what's happening. Situational awareness is not optional and paying attention becomes second nature quickly. If you've ever been overtaken by someone in a Porsche flooring the pedal, you'll think twice before moving in the left lane or outstaying your welcome there.
Even though I'm Dutch, most of my driving experience is in France, Spain and Portugal. I've never actually owned a car and typically only drive on vacation (rentals). For me, Spain is by far the most relaxed country to drive around in Europe. Roads are good, people seem to mostly behave these days (they've gotten more strict over the past 20 years), and there are lots of interesting places to drive to and beautiful scenery to enjoy. I've driven tens out thousands of km in that country over the years.
By comparison, the German autobahns are not in great shape. Like in the US federal funding for maintenance is not great. They're in a state of perpetual maintenance and you can't drive very far without encountering extensive road works. Being overtaken by traffic going twice your speed when you are basically flooring the pedal on your cheap rental is like crossing a highway on foot: very stressful. If you are renting a car in Germany, get an upgrade to something half decent. I once drove a rental Fiat panda that struggled to do 120 km/h on the autobahn and I don't recommend that. It's possible but you are basically going to be hugging the right lane and getting stuck behind slow trucks waiting for gaps in much faster traffic allowing you to overtake them. Merging left without the ability to accelerate quickly is stressful.
While most German drivers are very disciplined, not all of them are and there are plenty of irresponsible people treating the autobahn as their personal racing circuit. Also, not all drivers are actually German or necessarily that experienced driving very fast. The combination of idiots and fast cars is kind of predictably bad. Accidents at high speeds tend to be fatal.
Despite this, it's not as dangerous as you might think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r.... Germany is doing better than e.g. the US or my home country (Netherlands). The reason is very simply that people on the autobahn tend to pay attention to what's happening. Situational awareness is not optional and paying attention becomes second nature quickly. If you've ever been overtaken by someone in a Porsche flooring the pedal, you'll think twice before moving in the left lane or outstaying your welcome there.
Even though I'm Dutch, most of my driving experience is in France, Spain and Portugal. I've never actually owned a car and typically only drive on vacation (rentals). For me, Spain is by far the most relaxed country to drive around in Europe. Roads are good, people seem to mostly behave these days (they've gotten more strict over the past 20 years), and there are lots of interesting places to drive to and beautiful scenery to enjoy. I've driven tens out thousands of km in that country over the years.
By comparison, the German autobahns are not in great shape. Like in the US federal funding for maintenance is not great. They're in a state of perpetual maintenance and you can't drive very far without encountering extensive road works. Being overtaken by traffic going twice your speed when you are basically flooring the pedal on your cheap rental is like crossing a highway on foot: very stressful. If you are renting a car in Germany, get an upgrade to something half decent. I once drove a rental Fiat panda that struggled to do 120 km/h on the autobahn and I don't recommend that. It's possible but you are basically going to be hugging the right lane and getting stuck behind slow trucks waiting for gaps in much faster traffic allowing you to overtake them. Merging left without the ability to accelerate quickly is stressful.
> The German autobahn brings out the worst in people. Road rage is a thing
Road rage is a thing everywhere, it has nothing to do with the Autobahn. It's arguably more dangerous in cities where people stop their cars and get out to display physical violence. All over the world there are people who don't honor speed limits and want you to bugger off from the left lane, at least on the German Autobahn it's usually a crystal clear situation since the slower driver doesn't have the excuse that it's illegal to go faster anyway.
Road rage is a thing everywhere, it has nothing to do with the Autobahn. It's arguably more dangerous in cities where people stop their cars and get out to display physical violence. All over the world there are people who don't honor speed limits and want you to bugger off from the left lane, at least on the German Autobahn it's usually a crystal clear situation since the slower driver doesn't have the excuse that it's illegal to go faster anyway.
If you read on, you'll notice me making the same points. However, road rage at 250 km/h is a different beast than at normal speeds. Things tend to happen faster and be more disastrous. Also, people go to Germany specifically to drive fast and, well, misbehave. So, there are a lot of speed tourists and people specifically looking to test out their car performance. All that combines to make autobahn driving quite stressful.
I'm Danish, but my girlfriend is German and we rent a car every time we visit her family down there, in Baden-Württemberg. The area around Stuttgart is absolutely awash with big Mercedes and Porsches, for obvious reasons.
(As an aside, if you're ever in the area, go visit Auto & Technik Museum Sinsheim, and prepare to spend a whole day there gawking at awesome old machinery and airplanes)
At first, I found driving there a little bit intimidating. I'm used to Danish roads, where we drive 80km/h rather than 100km/h on most roads, and the speed limits are rather strictly enforced at 110/130km/h on motorways. I'm also used to Danish drivers, who generally accelerate and brake more gently, and generally drive slower cars (due to higher prices/taxes).
In comparison, Germans are more forceful drivers. I wouldn't say "aggressive", because they're much better at stopping for pedestrians at crossings, and yielding the right of way. But they accelerate and brake harder, drive faster in corners and have much more faith in the quality of their roads, and the skills of other drivers.
Once I got used to that difference in behavior, I found it much easier to grok German traffic and fit in.
That said, a BMW X5M passing you at 250+km/h while you're chilling at 160km/h in a rental Opel Corsa is always a little unnerving.
(As an aside, if you're ever in the area, go visit Auto & Technik Museum Sinsheim, and prepare to spend a whole day there gawking at awesome old machinery and airplanes)
At first, I found driving there a little bit intimidating. I'm used to Danish roads, where we drive 80km/h rather than 100km/h on most roads, and the speed limits are rather strictly enforced at 110/130km/h on motorways. I'm also used to Danish drivers, who generally accelerate and brake more gently, and generally drive slower cars (due to higher prices/taxes).
In comparison, Germans are more forceful drivers. I wouldn't say "aggressive", because they're much better at stopping for pedestrians at crossings, and yielding the right of way. But they accelerate and brake harder, drive faster in corners and have much more faith in the quality of their roads, and the skills of other drivers.
Once I got used to that difference in behavior, I found it much easier to grok German traffic and fit in.
That said, a BMW X5M passing you at 250+km/h while you're chilling at 160km/h in a rental Opel Corsa is always a little unnerving.
As a German driving a lot on the Autobahn and spending a lot of time in long distance trains (ICE), I can of course absolutely second that.
However, Germany is not Germany, it depends very much on the region. For instance, on the large 4-lane sections around Frankfurt, people drive aggressive and fast like mad. On the 3-lane sections in NRW, people have to drive annoyingly slowly because the Autobahn is a single roadworks. Then there are so many 2-lane Autobahnen in more rural areas which are also annoying because the average speed is low but there are aggressive people who think the left lane could bring them an advantage.
However, Germany is not Germany, it depends very much on the region. For instance, on the large 4-lane sections around Frankfurt, people drive aggressive and fast like mad. On the 3-lane sections in NRW, people have to drive annoyingly slowly because the Autobahn is a single roadworks. Then there are so many 2-lane Autobahnen in more rural areas which are also annoying because the average speed is low but there are aggressive people who think the left lane could bring them an advantage.
Disclaimer: been living in Germany for a few decades
No, absolutely no. I've been all over Europe for my job and vacation throughout my life and there is no country with more order than Germany.
I have no idea how you get the idea about Italy. Besides France it is the worst driving experience in western Europe. People there are even proud of it. Eastern Europe is a topic for itself.
Seriously, there are assholes on the road everywhere but there is an overall flow of order in Germany you won't find anywhere.
No, absolutely no. I've been all over Europe for my job and vacation throughout my life and there is no country with more order than Germany.
I have no idea how you get the idea about Italy. Besides France it is the worst driving experience in western Europe. People there are even proud of it. Eastern Europe is a topic for itself.
Seriously, there are assholes on the road everywhere but there is an overall flow of order in Germany you won't find anywhere.
I am German and I have no problems with the Autobahn but it always takes me a while to get used to the speed when I am back. I can easily see how it's frightening for people.
I absolutely hate driving on the Autobahn in Germany. The pure stress and the amount of assholes you encounter is absolutely astonishing.
I was surprised by the poor behavior I saw on the Autobahn outside of Frankfurt a few months ago. The Polish trucks were especially bad.
I have driven cars before in other countries, including the “chaotic” Italy and the US, and it was always a more pleasant experience.
And then I got back home and realized just how undisciplined and generally awful Bay Area drivers are.
I was surprised by the poor behavior I saw on the Autobahn outside of Frankfurt a few months ago. The Polish trucks were especially bad.
I have driven cars before in other countries, including the “chaotic” Italy and the US, and it was always a more pleasant experience.
And then I got back home and realized just how undisciplined and generally awful Bay Area drivers are.
Re: Polish truck drivers being bad - keep in mind that Poland has the largest trucking industry in EU, so you just see a lot of Polish trucks and naturally some of them will drive badly.
I'm curious where in the US. I find it varies greatly depending on location. The Autobahn did a bit as well.
The bigger the nearby city, the more traffic, the bigger pain is my global finding.
The bigger the nearby city, the more traffic, the bigger pain is my global finding.
Though, driving culture matters a fair bit, too.
For example, I find Chicago to be much more pleasant to drive in than Milwaukee. Chicago's driving culture is relatively aggressive, yes, but there are conventions that people follow, so traffic is generally predictable. Once you get to know the rules, it's fairly easy to navigate given the traffic density. Whereas, in Milwaukee, the only convention I could discern during the several years I lived there is that the person who's trying to merge onto the highway going 20mph below the speed limit is also the person who'll fly past you at 20mph above the speed limit a minute or two later.
For example, I find Chicago to be much more pleasant to drive in than Milwaukee. Chicago's driving culture is relatively aggressive, yes, but there are conventions that people follow, so traffic is generally predictable. Once you get to know the rules, it's fairly easy to navigate given the traffic density. Whereas, in Milwaukee, the only convention I could discern during the several years I lived there is that the person who's trying to merge onto the highway going 20mph below the speed limit is also the person who'll fly past you at 20mph above the speed limit a minute or two later.
Once you get to know the rules
Only one rule matters in Chicago: potholes have the right of way.
Only one rule matters in Chicago: potholes have the right of way.
Was the US pleasant because of the lower speed limits and their limited enforcement, or because of some quality of the drivers?
From my experience, it’s mostly that all cars drive at about the same speed. In Germany, you typically have to change lanes constantly because the right lane is mostly trucks going 80kph while on the left lane you have people coming at you with 200kph and their lights flashing.
I question anyone's sanity who thinks Italy is a better driving experience than the German Autobahn.
People who drive on intuition will feel this way. In my experience, typically drivers who are not trained well / lack experience with the culture & finesse that fast & safe driving requires.
I have done Amsterdam to Bern (Holland > Germany > Switzerland) and back once every weekend for 5 years: the difference in driving culture is extreme. When the Germans will:
1: Check left mirror for coming traffic
2: Stay on their lane for 5 seconds
3: Check left mirror AGAIN to see if that far away car suddenly is dangerously close
The Swiss and Dutch will check once, if the car in the mirror looks "tiny" just yank over the the next lane.
Not strange, since both these nations allow for a maximum speed of 120kmh. Everyone is going the same slow.
I dreaded the 1 hour in these two countries more then the 5 hours spend in the Autobahn.
I have done Amsterdam to Bern (Holland > Germany > Switzerland) and back once every weekend for 5 years: the difference in driving culture is extreme. When the Germans will:
1: Check left mirror for coming traffic
2: Stay on their lane for 5 seconds
3: Check left mirror AGAIN to see if that far away car suddenly is dangerously close
The Swiss and Dutch will check once, if the car in the mirror looks "tiny" just yank over the the next lane.
Not strange, since both these nations allow for a maximum speed of 120kmh. Everyone is going the same slow.
I dreaded the 1 hour in these two countries more then the 5 hours spend in the Autobahn.
As a german I'd even add the shoulder check before changing lanes. There situations where the mirror alone isn't enough.
Yeah, I'm a pure right-laner myself in the states, and this sounds like my version of hell.
My additional rules:
- if I'm driving on the right lane and I'm approaching a car in front of me while some other car approaches me on the left lane to overtake me (or even if it's on the right lane but quickly approaching) then I usually slightly break even if I wouldn't need it. This way the car approaching from the back will see my break lights and will know that I don't intend to suddenly change to the left lane to overtake the car in front of me. This is nice for the other person and makes the traffic more fluid.
- the faster I drive the more I have to force myself to look more in the distance to be prepared for anything unexpected (sudden traffic jam, animals, debris, etc...). Sounds obvious but in other countries I usually drive up to max 140 km/h but with 200km/h I need a lot more space to react.
- I try to anticipate and modulate the speed more than in other countries. E.g. even if the pavement is dry where I am driving, if I see a dark cloud in the distance I usually start slowing down as it could be that a few km ahead even, if it's not raining, there might still be a lot of water if a heavy cloud just did a pass-by.
All in all I usually loved driving in Germany, with the exception of during the hours when people go or come back from work (can be quite hectic).
- if I'm driving on the right lane and I'm approaching a car in front of me while some other car approaches me on the left lane to overtake me (or even if it's on the right lane but quickly approaching) then I usually slightly break even if I wouldn't need it. This way the car approaching from the back will see my break lights and will know that I don't intend to suddenly change to the left lane to overtake the car in front of me. This is nice for the other person and makes the traffic more fluid.
- the faster I drive the more I have to force myself to look more in the distance to be prepared for anything unexpected (sudden traffic jam, animals, debris, etc...). Sounds obvious but in other countries I usually drive up to max 140 km/h but with 200km/h I need a lot more space to react.
- I try to anticipate and modulate the speed more than in other countries. E.g. even if the pavement is dry where I am driving, if I see a dark cloud in the distance I usually start slowing down as it could be that a few km ahead even, if it's not raining, there might still be a lot of water if a heavy cloud just did a pass-by.
All in all I usually loved driving in Germany, with the exception of during the hours when people go or come back from work (can be quite hectic).
Here's some more random rules:
- Any maneuvering should be done with the gas pedal only. If you have to brake you are too fast. (Unless there was one single(!) idiot.)
- In general, it's good to track every car you see and extrapolate their intentions. There is a lot of communication going on. The range extends more if there are less cars.
- Pay close attention to cars trying to enter the Autobahn. Either move a lane to the left if there is space or speed up/slow down obviously enough they can adapt and get up to speed properly. When entering, speed up to ~60 kph and watch the others to see which space they offer you. You can mostly rely on them making space if you adapt a little. (Slow down if they speed up and vice versa.) It's extremely hard and dangerous to re-enter from a stop, so be confident and trust it will work out.
- About the distance thing: They started checking this, so pay attention. You can pay a high fine or lose your license!
- Going fast is really bad for your fuel economy. You'll have to get gas more often.
- Before and while travelling, keep close track of sudden 'Vollsperrung', which means the whole road is blocked (eg caused by accident, or eg quite recently they found an unexploded bomb from WWII under one of the main autobahns). If you drive into it and are unlucky you can get stuck all day. Be prepared for this to happen on longer journeys, so keep enough water and things to keep you warm in the car. 'Stau' is unpleasant, but 'Vollsperrung' can be a nightmare.
- There are two kinds of rest stops. The comfortable ones now all have toilets where you have to pay. If you stop at the small ones the toilets are free (but also a lot dirtier), so if you're stingy, stop there.
- Any maneuvering should be done with the gas pedal only. If you have to brake you are too fast. (Unless there was one single(!) idiot.)
- In general, it's good to track every car you see and extrapolate their intentions. There is a lot of communication going on. The range extends more if there are less cars.
- Pay close attention to cars trying to enter the Autobahn. Either move a lane to the left if there is space or speed up/slow down obviously enough they can adapt and get up to speed properly. When entering, speed up to ~60 kph and watch the others to see which space they offer you. You can mostly rely on them making space if you adapt a little. (Slow down if they speed up and vice versa.) It's extremely hard and dangerous to re-enter from a stop, so be confident and trust it will work out.
- About the distance thing: They started checking this, so pay attention. You can pay a high fine or lose your license!
- Going fast is really bad for your fuel economy. You'll have to get gas more often.
- Before and while travelling, keep close track of sudden 'Vollsperrung', which means the whole road is blocked (eg caused by accident, or eg quite recently they found an unexploded bomb from WWII under one of the main autobahns). If you drive into it and are unlucky you can get stuck all day. Be prepared for this to happen on longer journeys, so keep enough water and things to keep you warm in the car. 'Stau' is unpleasant, but 'Vollsperrung' can be a nightmare.
- There are two kinds of rest stops. The comfortable ones now all have toilets where you have to pay. If you stop at the small ones the toilets are free (but also a lot dirtier), so if you're stingy, stop there.
Two more things this made me remember, at least based on the savoir vivre in Poland (not sure if that's part of the culture in Germany too):
- It's considered very polite (kinda gentleman-grade polite) to change to the left (i.e. higher-speed) lane when you see a car building up speed to join the traffic from an acceleration lane (on the far right), to open a place in the traffic for them. That said, it's not "mandatory": you should only ever consider this as a lowest priority gesture, i.e. if noone's in sight getting ready to overcome you on the left. Conversely, if you're already driving fast on the acceleration lane and have trouble merging into the main traffic, and are already approaching the end of the acceleration lane, I've heard it recommended to stay on the subsequent "emergency lane" instead of e.g. reducing speed to a halt and trying to merge (or, obviously, forcing your way into some other car in the main lanes). It feels kinda risky, but the alternative of outright stopping, although it may feel tempting from basic instincts, is actually a huge immediate danger to you and everyone around.
- If you notice an unexpected, sudden congestion ahead, it's also considered good manners to blink your emergency lights, to signal a danger to drivers behind you. That said, I personally find it a rather difficult feat, given that if the congestion is sudden and unexpected, by definition it means I'm surprised by the situation, and thus quite busy handling the car and the gear trying to decelerate quickly but safely, while looking in all the mirrors and ahead at once to actively monitor the situation around. Searching for the rarely-used emergency lights switch is a risky distraction.
- It's considered very polite (kinda gentleman-grade polite) to change to the left (i.e. higher-speed) lane when you see a car building up speed to join the traffic from an acceleration lane (on the far right), to open a place in the traffic for them. That said, it's not "mandatory": you should only ever consider this as a lowest priority gesture, i.e. if noone's in sight getting ready to overcome you on the left. Conversely, if you're already driving fast on the acceleration lane and have trouble merging into the main traffic, and are already approaching the end of the acceleration lane, I've heard it recommended to stay on the subsequent "emergency lane" instead of e.g. reducing speed to a halt and trying to merge (or, obviously, forcing your way into some other car in the main lanes). It feels kinda risky, but the alternative of outright stopping, although it may feel tempting from basic instincts, is actually a huge immediate danger to you and everyone around.
- If you notice an unexpected, sudden congestion ahead, it's also considered good manners to blink your emergency lights, to signal a danger to drivers behind you. That said, I personally find it a rather difficult feat, given that if the congestion is sudden and unexpected, by definition it means I'm surprised by the situation, and thus quite busy handling the car and the gear trying to decelerate quickly but safely, while looking in all the mirrors and ahead at once to actively monitor the situation around. Searching for the rarely-used emergency lights switch is a risky distraction.
Typically you'll see a "wave" of blinking emergency lights arriving well before the sudden congestion, you pass that on for those behind you, and prepare to slow down.
> When driving in Germany, you need to drive like a German – at least like the good German drivers.
Or you can get a Dutch car (with a yellow licence plate, compared to the German which is white) and German drives will immediately recognise you as a danger on the road and give 'friendly' reminders with blinking lights to stay on the right side of the autobahn. Disclaimer, I'm Dutch.
Or you can get a Dutch car (with a yellow licence plate, compared to the German which is white) and German drives will immediately recognise you as a danger on the road and give 'friendly' reminders with blinking lights to stay on the right side of the autobahn. Disclaimer, I'm Dutch.
There is a joke in Germany about this:
Q: In the Netherlands, what happens to people who fail their driving test for the third time?
A: They get a yellow license plate.
Q: In the Netherlands, what happens to people who fail their driving test for the third time?
A: They get a yellow license plate.
[deleted]
I love the Autobahn, less so because of the driving experience and more so because it represents the Pinnacle of road engineering. Every inch of lane is striped properly, every sign is informative and bright, every Gore point is painted, every inch of road is paved with high quality materials, no potholes, all exit and entry ramps are separated and predictable, with long merges, highway facilities are in excellent condition. I don't know why we can't have these things in the US
The same reason our cars are shittier, and our water faucets don't make most excellent whooshing sounds: insufficient German engineers and craftsmanship.
American engineering is always over engineering, but lazy over engineering without any Teutonic perfectionism. Except maybe the various moon shots. Oh, wait.
American engineering is always over engineering, but lazy over engineering without any Teutonic perfectionism. Except maybe the various moon shots. Oh, wait.
Just don't bring up the Berlin Brandenburg Airport. Never, ever do this.
There are plenty of countries that would have opened BER in the state it was in 5 years ago, either sweeping problems under the rug or fixing them during operation. The airport is as much a testament to bad construction as it is to safety inspections and rules trumping economic interest.
When you kill 17 people and have to reconstruct multiple airport terminals due to fire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCsseldorf_Airport#D%C3%B...), you want to make certain you don't have a repeat.
Insufficiently demanding consumers?
Not anymore. We had some - even deadly - accidents the last few years during summer, caused by cheap construction material and layout. Caused in turn by choosing the wrong kind of competition between contractors by governmental (the Autobahn's owner) entities.
Here some links (in German, but the pictures should demonstrate the issue sufficiently):
https://www.tag24.de/nachrichten/blow-up-deutschland-todesfa...
https://www.google.com/search?channel=crow&q=autobahn+hitze+...
Here some links (in German, but the pictures should demonstrate the issue sufficiently):
https://www.tag24.de/nachrichten/blow-up-deutschland-todesfa...
https://www.google.com/search?channel=crow&q=autobahn+hitze+...
On the other hand, I believe their automobile maintenance is held to higher (engineering) standards, which would exclude many cars in the US.
What's interesting is a friend went back to mexico and was given a driver's license by just signing up for it without a test (apparently it's a right).
What's interesting is a friend went back to mexico and was given a driver's license by just signing up for it without a test (apparently it's a right).
>I don't know why we can't have these things in the US
Road conditions are heavily dependent on the state. Not all states adequately fund highway maintenance, and some states have to deal with extreme weather variances that wreck havoc on all their roads.
Road conditions are heavily dependent on the state. Not all states adequately fund highway maintenance, and some states have to deal with extreme weather variances that wreck havoc on all their roads.
Europe has a pretty rough winter as well. But I have never seen a pothole in Western European highways. I mean Germany itself experiences cold winter conditions
> GW Autobahn Rule 3: Slower traffic stays to the right!
As in the US, whenever possible, move into the right lane. Most German drivers are good about this, but some non-German drivers are not.
Having driven both in Europe and the US, this is one of my pet peeves in the US. This causes so much unnecessary risk. I used to chalk this up to the super light driving test in the US (at least compared to Europe).
But recently I realized it's not just driver education: the road UX is different between Europe and the US on main highways. Here in the US, the right lane very often "disappears", i.e. becomes an "exit only" lane. The result is if you're going straight for a while, you find it easier to not stay on the right and then have to change lanes. In Europe, the road design tries to minimize the "vanishing right lane" syndrome: exits ramps are separated; and if need be, it's the left lane that goes.
Having driven both in Europe and the US, this is one of my pet peeves in the US. This causes so much unnecessary risk. I used to chalk this up to the super light driving test in the US (at least compared to Europe).
But recently I realized it's not just driver education: the road UX is different between Europe and the US on main highways. Here in the US, the right lane very often "disappears", i.e. becomes an "exit only" lane. The result is if you're going straight for a while, you find it easier to not stay on the right and then have to change lanes. In Europe, the road design tries to minimize the "vanishing right lane" syndrome: exits ramps are separated; and if need be, it's the left lane that goes.
It's not just that. It's also that US onramps often involve a very tight curve followed by a very short time to merge. This makes it difficult for many cars to get up to the speed of traffic before they merge, and also leaves drivers with very little time to negotiate the merge.
More cautious drivers are going to be more intimidated about this than most people, so they're more likely to move move over a lane so that they don't have to deal with it. They also, of course, tend to be slower drivers.
I've no experience driving in Europe (Europe, I love you), but I suspect that a big part of why I don't see this sort of thing happening in Canada is that, outside of very dense places like the middle of Toronto or Montréal, the onramps tend to give you a good kilometer to merge. Sure, you might also be liable to get a ticket for loitering in the left or center lanes, but that's also illegal in the USA. It's just not enforced, because everyone does it, because the roads encourage you to do so.
More cautious drivers are going to be more intimidated about this than most people, so they're more likely to move move over a lane so that they don't have to deal with it. They also, of course, tend to be slower drivers.
I've no experience driving in Europe (Europe, I love you), but I suspect that a big part of why I don't see this sort of thing happening in Canada is that, outside of very dense places like the middle of Toronto or Montréal, the onramps tend to give you a good kilometer to merge. Sure, you might also be liable to get a ticket for loitering in the left or center lanes, but that's also illegal in the USA. It's just not enforced, because everyone does it, because the roads encourage you to do so.
More cautious drivers are going to be more intimidated about this than most people, so they're more likely to move move over a lane so that they don't have to deal with it. They also, of course, tend to be slower drivers.
I have no qualms with accommodating merging traffic, a "zipper merge" is easy to accommodate when everyone leaves sufficient space between cars.... but drivers tend to bunch up on the on-ramp and you'll get a pack of 3 - 5 cars with < 1 car length of distance between them and then they try to merge as one unit, so invariably one or more cars either on the ramp or on the freeway end up stomping on the brakes which makes everyone behind them do the same.
So for this reason, I avoid the far-right lane when there are 3+ travel lanes.
I have no qualms with accommodating merging traffic, a "zipper merge" is easy to accommodate when everyone leaves sufficient space between cars.... but drivers tend to bunch up on the on-ramp and you'll get a pack of 3 - 5 cars with < 1 car length of distance between them and then they try to merge as one unit, so invariably one or more cars either on the ramp or on the freeway end up stomping on the brakes which makes everyone behind them do the same.
So for this reason, I avoid the far-right lane when there are 3+ travel lanes.
In a lot of European countries, vehicles entering from the right (aka merging onto the highway) have the right of way, so even if they aren't necessarily up to speed, you have to let them in, or make room for them. This is one reason you'll see many people change out of the right lane just before a merge -- they are probably making room to let someone get in.
This does certainly not extend to Germany. And I wonder in which European country this could be the case, as it sounds like a really bad idea.
There is the general rule of right-before-left on intersections in Germany and some other European countries. But this does NOT apply on highways, after all an on-ramp is no intersection.
There is the general rule of right-before-left on intersections in Germany and some other European countries. But this does NOT apply on highways, after all an on-ramp is no intersection.
The same is true in the USA.
And then, invariably, someone behind them will immediately change into the right lane and speed up to pass them on the right. Thereby making it even harder for the person merging to get in, while also pinning the person who made room for them in the middle lane, because there's suddenly a bunch of faster-moving traffic in the right lane.
It will tend to work out this way even when it's a 3-lane highway and the left-hand lane is wide open.
And then, invariably, someone behind them will immediately change into the right lane and speed up to pass them on the right. Thereby making it even harder for the person merging to get in, while also pinning the person who made room for them in the middle lane, because there's suddenly a bunch of faster-moving traffic in the right lane.
It will tend to work out this way even when it's a 3-lane highway and the left-hand lane is wide open.
> In a lot of European countries, vehicles entering from the right (aka merging onto the highway) have the right of way
Really? In Ontario, entrance merge lanes are marked as if the opposite is true, with "lane ends 300 m" signs and painted lines all the way until it tapers off to nothing.
I'm not sure what the law says, but this creates the feeling that "you're lane is ending, not mine", and it's entirely up to entering traffic to match speed and find a gap. Basically, freeway traffic shouldn't adjust their speed unless it's the only way to let entering traffic enter (if there's no room).
In contrast, most US states seem to immediately merge the two lanes into one really wide lane that gradually (or rapidly) tapers down to normal width. Often without any warning signs for freeway traffic to expect merging traffic.
(Some US states also do this for exit ramps, which creates the dangerous situation where some drivers will accidentally take the exit at freeway speeds. This happened to me once at night, and I had to slam on the brakes before running the stop sign at the end.)
Really? In Ontario, entrance merge lanes are marked as if the opposite is true, with "lane ends 300 m" signs and painted lines all the way until it tapers off to nothing.
I'm not sure what the law says, but this creates the feeling that "you're lane is ending, not mine", and it's entirely up to entering traffic to match speed and find a gap. Basically, freeway traffic shouldn't adjust their speed unless it's the only way to let entering traffic enter (if there's no room).
In contrast, most US states seem to immediately merge the two lanes into one really wide lane that gradually (or rapidly) tapers down to normal width. Often without any warning signs for freeway traffic to expect merging traffic.
(Some US states also do this for exit ramps, which creates the dangerous situation where some drivers will accidentally take the exit at freeway speeds. This happened to me once at night, and I had to slam on the brakes before running the stop sign at the end.)
As a fellow Ontario driver it is of course polite to move over to the other lane if possible to give the merging car some room. Then you can move back of course.
Yes, I agree. If I can't move over, and there's not room for entering vehicles, then I slow down to create enough space for a single vehicle (zipper merge fashion).
> Here lies the body of Henry Gray
> He died defending his right of way.
> His way was right, his will was strong,
> But he’s just as dead as if he was wrong.
I don't care that I have the right of way as I merge into the highway. I have no idea if the idiot who is doing 65 mph in the right-most lane, who clearly sees my merge maneuver is planning on slamming on the brakes after I merge in, or slamming into me.
I may technically have the right of way, but I sure as hell am not going to bet my life on it.
> He died defending his right of way.
> His way was right, his will was strong,
> But he’s just as dead as if he was wrong.
I don't care that I have the right of way as I merge into the highway. I have no idea if the idiot who is doing 65 mph in the right-most lane, who clearly sees my merge maneuver is planning on slamming on the brakes after I merge in, or slamming into me.
I may technically have the right of way, but I sure as hell am not going to bet my life on it.
[deleted]
In the Netherlands at least, if you can't find a spot to merge from the onramp lane, you are to stop and wait for a better moment to merge. This never happens in practice though, because drivers on the rightmost lane will commonly either move a lane to the left, or if they can't, change their speed a little to accommodate you. But that's a courtesy, not a rule.
Nope! On ramps do not have right of way speaking for Germany Austria and Italy here. By any means move over for merging traffic if you can but don't endanger yourself or others by jumping out of your lane for merging traffic.
[deleted]
As a European, the US highways drive me mad. People passing on the right, slow traffic in the left lane, dangerous markings, dangerous merging of lanes, and most of all: drivers seem to only see what's directly in front of their car, one car length only. There is no anticipation, no allowing for other traffic that might need to switch lanes (because of slow trucks ahead). I have to look not just in the mirrors, but around me all the time, because cars will stay in my dead zones. In general, I find it a frustrating and dangerous experience.
Confirm. Driving German Autobahn's is much safer than driving US highways.
The only thing I like about US highways is the way they drive fast an cities, right and left, 60 miles, 5 lanes. In Germany there will always be a 100km/h speed limit, and 2 lanes only.
The only thing I like about US highways is the way they drive fast an cities, right and left, 60 miles, 5 lanes. In Germany there will always be a 100km/h speed limit, and 2 lanes only.
Also in the US they'll use left side exits, which pushes exiting traffic to the "fast" lane. Drives me crazy when road designers do this.
I think this also varies state-to-state, I recently drove from Colorado to Texas and it really seemed to me that in general TX drivers observe the "stay right except to pass" rule much more than CO drivers.
I think this also varies state-to-state, I recently drove from Colorado to Texas and it really seemed to me that in general TX drivers observe the "stay right except to pass" rule much more than CO drivers.
Maybe it's worse in CO, but as a native Texan I have to say that there are plenty of slow drivers who sit in the left hand lane on major highways seemingly oblivious to the drivers wanting to go faster stacking up behind them.
This is abundant all over the USA. I've driven all around the USA and hugging the left lane is a universal trait among the incompetent and oblivious drivers we have. (And we have many!)
A few years ago it seemed like CO drivers were strictly obeying "keep right except to pass" because cops were enforcing it. Now they apparently don't any more because it seems like CO drivers hog the left lane jist like everybody else. I guess enforcement matters.
> I think this also varies state-to-state,
The actual law varies from state to state and the rule you are discussing is actually the law in some states, but not in others.
The actual law varies from state to state and the rule you are discussing is actually the law in some states, but not in others.
> Having driven both in Europe and the US, this is one of my pet peeves in the US.
Funny, one of my pet peeves since I moved to the US is the "keep right unless passing" or "left lane is for passing only" or any other variation of the same sermon. Sounds logical at first, but it's really bureocracy.
If the highway is congested, then the rule becomes meaningless. The traffic density is so high, that it's perfectly natural to use all of the available lanes.
If the highway is not congested, then the density is low enough that you should be able to change lanes as necessary, with minimal fuss. If that's the case, then the whole "keep to the right unless passing" is really just a crutch. In this situation, what we really want is something along the lines of "pay attention and don't make people pass you on the right", but that's not enforceable. So we come up with a rule like "keep to the right unless passing", because that can be enforced by cops.
Funny, one of my pet peeves since I moved to the US is the "keep right unless passing" or "left lane is for passing only" or any other variation of the same sermon. Sounds logical at first, but it's really bureocracy.
If the highway is congested, then the rule becomes meaningless. The traffic density is so high, that it's perfectly natural to use all of the available lanes.
If the highway is not congested, then the density is low enough that you should be able to change lanes as necessary, with minimal fuss. If that's the case, then the whole "keep to the right unless passing" is really just a crutch. In this situation, what we really want is something along the lines of "pay attention and don't make people pass you on the right", but that's not enforceable. So we come up with a rule like "keep to the right unless passing", because that can be enforced by cops.
In my experience it isn't really the people in the left lane that present the biggest problem, it's the cruisers in the middle lane (on a three lane highway). They effectively cap the speed of the highway because you have to match their speed and squeeze in (they rarely leave a legal amount of distance) just to get to the other side of the highway to go faster, or to the right to take an exit. I really do wish cops would do some enforcement of the keep-right rule so the highway would flow smoothly.
> If the highway is congested, then the rule becomes meaningless
I don't think this is true. On a German three lane highway you normally have a lane of trucks driving 60 mph, a lane of cars going 80 mph and a line of cars going 100-120 mph. This arrangement follows naturally from "keep right unless passing" since each of the lanes is constantly passing the lane to its right.
I don't think this is true. On a German three lane highway you normally have a lane of trucks driving 60 mph, a lane of cars going 80 mph and a line of cars going 100-120 mph. This arrangement follows naturally from "keep right unless passing" since each of the lanes is constantly passing the lane to its right.
You're completely missing the safety factor.
On European highways passing always occurs on the left, this means nobody should be ever passing you on your right.
When you have an emergency like a tire blowout, on a European highway you can safely merge right towards the shoulder with urgency and confidence nobody is coming up fast from behind and overtaking you on that side.
In the United States, you cannot make that assumption, people are overtaking on both sides at any time, it's basically chaos.
On European highways passing always occurs on the left, this means nobody should be ever passing you on your right.
When you have an emergency like a tire blowout, on a European highway you can safely merge right towards the shoulder with urgency and confidence nobody is coming up fast from behind and overtaking you on that side.
In the United States, you cannot make that assumption, people are overtaking on both sides at any time, it's basically chaos.
I would expect everyone going at different speeds in different lanes to increase congestion, because it encourages people who want to go faster than the general flow of traffic to jockey around a bunch, which then adversely impacts the speed at which everyone else can go as they react to all those sudden moves, which ultimately slows everything down even further.
Not entirely unlike how turbulence in a pipe decreases the overall rate at which water can flow through it.
Not entirely unlike how turbulence in a pipe decreases the overall rate at which water can flow through it.
> If the highway is congested, then the rule becomes meaningless.
> If the highway is not congested, then the density is low enough that you should be able to change lanes as necessary
In my experience there is a lot of middle ground between these two cases, where there is enough traffic that you can't change lanes as needed to get around a slow person in the left lane (often because that person is driving right next to another vehicle in the right lane, and their speeds are so similar that it takes a long time to resolve which one is passing which), but there's not enough congestion that it no longer makes sense to have any designated passing lane at all.
> If the highway is not congested, then the density is low enough that you should be able to change lanes as necessary
In my experience there is a lot of middle ground between these two cases, where there is enough traffic that you can't change lanes as needed to get around a slow person in the left lane (often because that person is driving right next to another vehicle in the right lane, and their speeds are so similar that it takes a long time to resolve which one is passing which), but there's not enough congestion that it no longer makes sense to have any designated passing lane at all.
Living in the US and having grown up in Germany I couldn't agree more. Freeways could go so much faster if the slow people stayed on my right. During my commute I constantly am stuck between three card next to each other, happy to go 45-50 mp/h. At the same time I see cars changing lanes all the time to work their way around the slow cars. It's super dangerous. Visit LA and this gets dialed to 11.
> Here in the US, the right lane very often "disappears", i.e. becomes an "exit only" lane.
Are there any instances where there isn't signage that informs drivers in advance? I'll drive in the right-most lane and if I see one of those signs, I'll check for traffic, signal and move to the lane to my left.
Are there any instances where there isn't signage that informs drivers in advance? I'll drive in the right-most lane and if I see one of those signs, I'll check for traffic, signal and move to the lane to my left.
Sometimes it's ambiguous, where you don't know if the exit lane is a new lane or your lane.
This is also a consequence of speed limits that are artificially low.
In the US, people who are going at or over the speed limit feel entitled to move as far left as is necessary to pass slower-moving vehicles.
But when you reach the far left lanes the person going 5 over feels entitled to stay there, even if if the person behind them is willing to go 10 over.
I think having no speed limit means you have to yield to faster cars, and enforces politeness. And the faster moving cars get past you and everyone is good.
In the US, people who are going at or over the speed limit feel entitled to move as far left as is necessary to pass slower-moving vehicles.
But when you reach the far left lanes the person going 5 over feels entitled to stay there, even if if the person behind them is willing to go 10 over.
I think having no speed limit means you have to yield to faster cars, and enforces politeness. And the faster moving cars get past you and everyone is good.
I think there is some truth to that. However, most of the Autobahn does have a speed limit and other places in Europe definitely have a speed limit and still drivers are great about only overtaking on the left and moving to the right (well when I drove in Ireland they moved to the left.. ;))
In California, you don't need to stick to the right lane on the freeway. You just pick whichever lane. If you want to go faster than other cars, go in the left lane. Not necessary to keep switching lanes
Since I'm getting downvoted, here is a link:
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/traffic_l...
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/traffic_l...
It should be noted that not all Autobahns are equally well built and maintained. Even though they are called "Bundesautobahn" (federal highway), it's actually the states who are responsible for construction and maintenance. Some do a good job with that, others not so much.
For the best driving experience I'd recommend Bavaria. They have well maintained roads and less congestion, also only few speed limits. Avoid Baden-Württemberg and especially the Stuttgart area, unless you really like traffic jams.
Here's a map of Autobahn sections without speed limit: http://autobahnspeedhunter.de/routes_de/
For the best driving experience I'd recommend Bavaria. They have well maintained roads and less congestion, also only few speed limits. Avoid Baden-Württemberg and especially the Stuttgart area, unless you really like traffic jams.
Here's a map of Autobahn sections without speed limit: http://autobahnspeedhunter.de/routes_de/
No, Bavaria is actually one of the worst. The best are by far in the east, Sachsen. When I have to go from Sachsen down to Bavaria all hell breaks loose. Crippled asphalt, broken concrete from the 30s, endless constructions, highway police enforcing 80km/h. It's the worst.
I drive A8 (Stuttgart - Munich) and A9 (Nuremberg - Munich) regularly and don't see much to complain about. Compare that to A5 here in southwest and you see what I mean...
Anyway, if Saxony really has better Autobahns than Bavaria, I need to go there soon ;) Any specific recommendations?
Anyway, if Saxony really has better Autobahns than Bavaria, I need to go there soon ;) Any specific recommendations?
> Crippled asphalt, broken concrete from the 30s
Rather from the 90's and later. You surely remember the bike driver, jumping to dead over a heat-caused artificial surface ramp on the A93 two or three years ago.
Rather from the 90's and later. You surely remember the bike driver, jumping to dead over a heat-caused artificial surface ramp on the A93 two or three years ago.
I find driving on the Autobahn very stressful. The main problem is the width of the speed distribution. You have the trucks on the right lane, often struggling to even reach the required 60 km/h when going uphill, and you have people driving over 200 km/h on the left. When you're stuck behind a truck, you have to be very careful before switching lanes since you need time to accelerate. It's not easy to gauge the speed of an oncoming car in the rear mirror.
Also, nobody wants to drive on the rightmost lane because you don't want to have a truck behind you when you suddenly encounter a traffic jam (especially when the end of it is behind a curve). So the left lane is usually pretty crowded, and often times the distance between cars is way too low for the speed that is driven there.
Have you considered just adopting a faster cruising speed? Would this not solve all your problems by giving more room for error should someone behind you have to hit the brakes if you misjudge? Almost all cars can comfortably run 170 kph and it sounds like it would make you a lot less stressed (arguably stress and nervousness are more dangerous than the speed differential itself; the speed differential can be anticipated by others, whereas nervous driving is inherently unpredictable for everyone involved.)
The not-wanting-a-truck-behind-you thing is new to me, didn't know that was a thing.
The not-wanting-a-truck-behind-you thing is new to me, didn't know that was a thing.
The autobahn is usually too crowded for driving such high speeds continuously. You constantly have to break for slower cars overtaking trucks or who are simply "idling" on the left lane because they don't want to drive between trucks. This just creates another kind of stress (and will also reduce your mileage considerably).
> and you have people driving over 200 km/h on the left. When you're stuck behind a truck, you have to be very careful before switching lanes since you need time to accelerate.
Indeed, you really need to get used to expecting some crazy BMW driver stuck in your back and flashing wildly when it was clear behind seconds ago as you switched lanes to overtake at 150 Km/h or so. But those who drive 250+ on the left lane are used to these situations already.
Indeed, you really need to get used to expecting some crazy BMW driver stuck in your back and flashing wildly when it was clear behind seconds ago as you switched lanes to overtake at 150 Km/h or so. But those who drive 250+ on the left lane are used to these situations already.
If there is a big hill, I don't think there is not limit sign, rather 120 or even less. At least that's what I see around Munich and Stuttgart.
>If you see a vehicle coming up from behind you at a higher rate of speed, signal and move over. Don’t be surprised if they flash their high beams. It’s common and only considered mildly rude. Just move over.
While this is somewhat common this is a clear violation of Traffic Law and actually also a violation of the German criminal code ("Nötigung"). It's definitely not "only mildly rude" and the types of people who flash their headlights aggressively (often accompanied by driving way to close to the car in front of them) are those we could really do without on the Autobahn.
While this is somewhat common this is a clear violation of Traffic Law and actually also a violation of the German criminal code ("Nötigung"). It's definitely not "only mildly rude" and the types of people who flash their headlights aggressively (often accompanied by driving way to close to the car in front of them) are those we could really do without on the Autobahn.
I thought so as well, but articles I've found (eg [0]) seem to indicate Lichthupe can actually kinda be used when overtaking. But I doubt most people on the road use it this way. Flashing your lights till the lane is clear certainly isn't legal.
[0] https://www.adac.de/der-adac/rechtsberatung/verkehrsvorschri...
[0] https://www.adac.de/der-adac/rechtsberatung/verkehrsvorschri...
Yes you are correct. You are allowed to use the Lichthupe (or the normal horn as well) _once_ when indicating that you are going to overtake. But that's only for situations on single lane roads where there is already enough space to overtake. You are not allowed to push other drivers around it is only for signalling that your overtaking maneuver is about to happen.
Yes, its actually perfectly legal, if you are indicating your intention to overtake, and you are still within the legally allowed distance from the other car. Doing this will riding in their trunk, not so much legal anymore.
Problem is that this is barely known to anyone, even in Germany. So you will be seen as an asshole anyway.
Problem is that this is barely known to anyone, even in Germany. So you will be seen as an asshole anyway.
I've driven in Germany many times and thought it was a lot less stressful than driving in the US. Autobahns are typically only 2 or 3 lanes per direction vs the 4 to 6 lane monstrosities that we get here. They are also very well marked, designed, and paved.
If you go over 3 lanes per direction you have absolutely failed at designing a road.
Or you have the traffic density required to move that many cars. The George Washington Bridge, which essentially carries all traffic that travels through New York City that isn't going to/from Manhattan and some parts of Long Island, carries 9 lanes in each direction on two levels, and absolutely needs that many lanes.
If you ever fill 3 lanes than you need to seriously invest in public transport. More than 3 lanes is never a sane idea. 9 lanes is an absolute atrocity.
> If you ever fill 3 lanes than you need to seriously invest in public transport.
Um, you do realize that the George Washington Bridge is in New York City, one of the largest cities in the world, with an extensive system of public transportation? The idea that if NYC would just invest in some public transport those 9 lanes would go down to 3 is laughable.
Um, you do realize that the George Washington Bridge is in New York City, one of the largest cities in the world, with an extensive system of public transportation? The idea that if NYC would just invest in some public transport those 9 lanes would go down to 3 is laughable.
I somewhat agree with the parent poster. The city's design should not require 9 lanes. I didn't see 9 lanes roads in Tokyo and it's bigger than NYC.
> I didn't see 9 lanes roads in Tokyo and it's bigger than NYC.
That's because Tokyo and NYC are different cities in different countries, populated by people with very different preferences.
My point was not that NYC's public transportation and highway systems are optimal by the criterion of "optimal" that the poster I responded to appears to be using. My point was that the fact that NYC doesn't look optimal to him is not that NYC has simply failed to consider public transportation as an alternative. It's that, as I said, NYC is populated by people with different preferences from his, and NYC's public transportation and highway systems reflect those preferences.
That's because Tokyo and NYC are different cities in different countries, populated by people with very different preferences.
My point was not that NYC's public transportation and highway systems are optimal by the criterion of "optimal" that the poster I responded to appears to be using. My point was that the fact that NYC doesn't look optimal to him is not that NYC has simply failed to consider public transportation as an alternative. It's that, as I said, NYC is populated by people with different preferences from his, and NYC's public transportation and highway systems reflect those preferences.
That's because NYC and most of America is dysfunctional to the point where people think that a 18 lane road is not just necessary but actually a good idea. Not a single place in the US has good public transport. Maybe good to US standards but thats a low bar.
> That's because NYC and most of America is dysfunctional
Not to those of us who live in America. That's the nice thing about having different countries, and different states, cities, etc. within countries: it enables people with widely different definitions of "functional" to all find a place to live, instead of everybody having to conform to somebody's fixed idea of how people should live.
Not to those of us who live in America. That's the nice thing about having different countries, and different states, cities, etc. within countries: it enables people with widely different definitions of "functional" to all find a place to live, instead of everybody having to conform to somebody's fixed idea of how people should live.
Come to LA and you will see 5 or 6 easily. And LA has the added bonus of having left and right exits which they tell you about only a few hundred meters before. You see plenty of cars going from all the way right to all the way left in a hurry...
Great example of the failed road design the parent is referencing. Not to mention the failed protocols (traffic rules) the US has that further diminish throughput.
US roads have low speed limits, which limits shortening of the vehicle at relativistic speeds. (= capacity)
Also with a lot fewer interchanges. Even a large German city may only have 1 or 2 exits.
While the rules of the Autobahn are not that different to U.S. freeway rules, the practice of them is very different (e.g. the use of blinkers). U.S. drivers could learn a lot from this.
Absolutely. Having driven in a bunch of EU countries and then driving in the US what struck me the most was not that Americans were "laid-back" as the article claims. At least in California highways following distances are very small and everyone seems to think it's natural to cut across into another lane with no safety margins at highway speeds. That combined with very poor lane discipline, with overtakes on the right and left, made me fell much less safe than in highways across the EU. As with anything you end up getting used to it but there's something to be said for simple rules well followed. These Autobahn rules are fairly normal practice across the EU. The Autobahn just makes obeying much more important as the speed differences are deadlier.
One of the signs is labeled incorrectly. The clear white circle with the four diagonal lines is actually kind of a combination of the other two white circle signs. It means end of any speed limits and end of any passing restrictions.
There is no need for a "No speed limit" sign because this is the default.
There is no need for a "No speed limit" sign because this is the default.
> "[...] Don’t be surprised if they flash their high beams. It’s common and only considered mildly rude. Just move over."
According to the very angry and also very stereotypically German Police officer pulling over me and my friend back in 2017, flashing your lights is in-fact illegal. We were doing approximately 140km/h having just passed the police car in the left lane when someone pulled out ahead of us going much slower forcing us to slam the brakes to avoid hitting them. No blinkers were used on their part and we flashed our lights as we had seen and experienced countless times on our trip to let them know we were coming. We had driven all the way down from the top of Denmark, through Germany, France and Switzerland, down through parts of Italy and were then on the way back up through Germany when this happened so we had seen people flashing their high beams like that countless of times, and it seemed like a good practice if you were going much faster than the people ahead.
My friend was driving at the time and luckily got no ticket and kept his license after getting scolded by the police officer for a good 15 minutes.
No idea if it's actually illegal, but considering of angry the police officer was I'm assuming so. We were confused as to why they stopped us at first, and he kept yelling/asking "what is that? Why do you do that?"
Other then that my experiences driving on the Autobahn (and that whole stretch of road) have been pretty good! Very straight roads of decent quality where they seem to use concrete or something instead of asphalt like they do here in Norway. Someone else mentioned the speed limits kept going up and down over short distances, which I remember as well.
I think the most perplexing thing for us driving on the Autobahn is that you can purchase alcohol, even the stronger stuff, at the gas stations along the way, coming from having a strongly regulated alcohol monopoly system here in Norway where anything stronger than 4,7% alcohol is only available at Vinmonopolet, which is only open specific hours and dribks with a lower percentage are also only available in normal stores within certain hours.
This is turning out to be a much longer comment than I intended.
According to the very angry and also very stereotypically German Police officer pulling over me and my friend back in 2017, flashing your lights is in-fact illegal. We were doing approximately 140km/h having just passed the police car in the left lane when someone pulled out ahead of us going much slower forcing us to slam the brakes to avoid hitting them. No blinkers were used on their part and we flashed our lights as we had seen and experienced countless times on our trip to let them know we were coming. We had driven all the way down from the top of Denmark, through Germany, France and Switzerland, down through parts of Italy and were then on the way back up through Germany when this happened so we had seen people flashing their high beams like that countless of times, and it seemed like a good practice if you were going much faster than the people ahead.
My friend was driving at the time and luckily got no ticket and kept his license after getting scolded by the police officer for a good 15 minutes.
No idea if it's actually illegal, but considering of angry the police officer was I'm assuming so. We were confused as to why they stopped us at first, and he kept yelling/asking "what is that? Why do you do that?"
Other then that my experiences driving on the Autobahn (and that whole stretch of road) have been pretty good! Very straight roads of decent quality where they seem to use concrete or something instead of asphalt like they do here in Norway. Someone else mentioned the speed limits kept going up and down over short distances, which I remember as well.
I think the most perplexing thing for us driving on the Autobahn is that you can purchase alcohol, even the stronger stuff, at the gas stations along the way, coming from having a strongly regulated alcohol monopoly system here in Norway where anything stronger than 4,7% alcohol is only available at Vinmonopolet, which is only open specific hours and dribks with a lower percentage are also only available in normal stores within certain hours.
This is turning out to be a much longer comment than I intended.
The police officer probably had a bad day.
Flashing the high beams or using your horn is allowed in two situations: to signal that you will overtake the car in front of you (or have the intention to do so) outside of a built-up area, or if you judge yourself or someone else to be in danger ($16 StVO).
There are some additional provisions about not blinding oncoming traffic, but that shouldn't be a concern on the autobahn. Signaling something that they are driving unsafe and put you in danger is justified by the law.
Flashing the high beams or using your horn is allowed in two situations: to signal that you will overtake the car in front of you (or have the intention to do so) outside of a built-up area, or if you judge yourself or someone else to be in danger ($16 StVO).
There are some additional provisions about not blinding oncoming traffic, but that shouldn't be a concern on the autobahn. Signaling something that they are driving unsafe and put you in danger is justified by the law.
My experience with German road police it that they can be really obnoxious and rude. Me and a friend got stopped once in Germany, and we were picked out solely because of our Dutch license plate, nothing more. Guy demanded to search our car, demanded we open and empty all of our luggage. He was sure he'd find some marijuana since we're Dutch. Held us up for more than two hours, threatened to get a sniffing dog (which he hoped would make us give up what he suspected we had), and just being an enormous douche. He then just left us standing next to the highway on a very dangerous spot with all of our luggage a mess and on the street.
So yea, probably he just had a bad day. Or, he's one of the many many men that work for the German Police that are just enormous a-holes.
So yea, probably he just had a bad day. Or, he's one of the many many men that work for the German Police that are just enormous a-holes.
> flashing your lights is in-fact illegal
I'd just bought a new-to-me car in Germany in 2000. I'm stopped a light, futzing with the controls trying to activate the washer, and accidentally flashed the high beams. The driver in front of me was so concerned about this that they got out of their car and approached mine to ask what was wrong.
I don't know about legality, but, in some situations it will certainly alarm a German driver.
> gas stations
They're basically the only thing open 24-hours and on holidays so they'll sell whatever there's demand for in their location. I did work in a data center with a gas station down the street that doubled as a pretty decent computer shop.
I'd just bought a new-to-me car in Germany in 2000. I'm stopped a light, futzing with the controls trying to activate the washer, and accidentally flashed the high beams. The driver in front of me was so concerned about this that they got out of their car and approached mine to ask what was wrong.
I don't know about legality, but, in some situations it will certainly alarm a German driver.
> gas stations
They're basically the only thing open 24-hours and on holidays so they'll sell whatever there's demand for in their location. I did work in a data center with a gas station down the street that doubled as a pretty decent computer shop.
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> If you remain a typical, more laid-back American driver, you could have problems. You also need to be alert and pay even more attention to the road than required in the US.
I've driven around the US & Germany. There is no "typical" US driver. They vary based upon what kind of area in the US they live in, the time of day & the amount of traffic.
I do prefer the semi's & large trucks on the far right rule & the pass only on the left rule. This is sometimes applied around the US but plenty of cities have people passing in every lane which seems to slow down traffic overall.
I've driven around the US & Germany. There is no "typical" US driver. They vary based upon what kind of area in the US they live in, the time of day & the amount of traffic.
I do prefer the semi's & large trucks on the far right rule & the pass only on the left rule. This is sometimes applied around the US but plenty of cities have people passing in every lane which seems to slow down traffic overall.
This
Driving in the United States is very region dependent.
In cities it's everyone for themselves. Lots of speeding and general shenanigans. Especially Boston, Philly, NYC, Baltimore, SF, LA, DC, and Miami.
In the mid west drivers are generally more laid back and follow the speed limits more.
In rural parts of the Northeast like upstate NY and PA you'll find drivers a lot like Germans. Stay right, pass left.
PA turnpike has a speed limit of 70 but it's normal to see people doing 80-85 especially on I-80. But I-95 near Philly is even worse. Posted speed limit of 55. People doing 80 regularly in the left lane.
This is basically almost autobahn speeds.
For the non-mericans: 80 MPH ~= 128.748 KPH
American roads are all over the place as far as maintenance goes. The interstate road between NYC and Philadelphia is extremely high quality and you can easily hit 120 MPH (193.121 KPH).
Driving in the United States is very region dependent.
In cities it's everyone for themselves. Lots of speeding and general shenanigans. Especially Boston, Philly, NYC, Baltimore, SF, LA, DC, and Miami.
In the mid west drivers are generally more laid back and follow the speed limits more.
In rural parts of the Northeast like upstate NY and PA you'll find drivers a lot like Germans. Stay right, pass left.
PA turnpike has a speed limit of 70 but it's normal to see people doing 80-85 especially on I-80. But I-95 near Philly is even worse. Posted speed limit of 55. People doing 80 regularly in the left lane.
This is basically almost autobahn speeds.
For the non-mericans: 80 MPH ~= 128.748 KPH
American roads are all over the place as far as maintenance goes. The interstate road between NYC and Philadelphia is extremely high quality and you can easily hit 120 MPH (193.121 KPH).
Tangentially related, but for some reason many Americans that I've talked to here in the US (I'm originally from Europe, and have lived in Germany for several years) have a collective misconception that "The Autobahn" is a particular designated, semi-mythical piece of highway somewhere in Germany that doesn't have speed limits. They don't understand that lack of speed limits is the default on any limited-access highway in the country (unless explicitly restricted).
Many of these laws are also laws in the US, but not in all states. Passing on the right (undertaking) is illegal in many states. Hanging out in the left lane while not actively passing cars to the right is similarly illegal in most states.
In Germany, I noticed that they use camera enforcement for tailgating and undertaking - not just for speed. Since these activities seem much more dangerous than speeding, it seems strange that there is so little enforcement in the US.
In Germany, I noticed that they use camera enforcement for tailgating and undertaking - not just for speed. Since these activities seem much more dangerous than speeding, it seems strange that there is so little enforcement in the US.
I rode a bicycle through a long stretch of German autobahn once. Took quite a while to reach a suitable exit. That was very late at night without much traffic though.
That was a Schengen thing. I'd crossed from Switzerland into Germany without any visible border and I didn't know that the blue/green road designation has exactly the opposite meaning in Germany than in Switzerland...
That was a Schengen thing. I'd crossed from Switzerland into Germany without any visible border and I didn't know that the blue/green road designation has exactly the opposite meaning in Germany than in Switzerland...
Similar thing happened to me in Italy. Wanted to ride from Perugia to Assisi, just following the signs and was suddenly on the ramp to the high way with cars and trucks behind me.
Had to climb over the side rail to escape.
Re: the recommended limit of 130 km/h: Exceeding that soft limit does not put you at risk of a fine or a criminal penalty, but courts will increase your civil liability in case of an accident. Meaning that it gets more expensive.
My one Autobahn experience was a blast. I drove from Frankfurt-am-Main into Switzerland in a rented Ford Focus wagon (5-speed diesel, thank you). There was a period of about an hour when I didn't go below 120mph, and there wasn't a single moment when I felt unsafe. Just stay to the right and keep it between the lines.
It's striking what a well-built road the Autobahn is. You could put a full martini glass on the dashboard, and even above 100mph you wouldn't see it spill. Back in my younger days I went similar speeds on American roads, and the construction quality just isn't the same.
It's striking what a well-built road the Autobahn is. You could put a full martini glass on the dashboard, and even above 100mph you wouldn't see it spill. Back in my younger days I went similar speeds on American roads, and the construction quality just isn't the same.
To be fair, Germany is a tiny country and the autobahn spends a lot of time under construction. It's dug much deeper than typical American highways. Nobody in the US wants to pay that much for road construction.
I had no idea how big Germany is, or how it compares to US states.
Germany is a bit bigger than New Mexico, but a bit smaller than Montana. If it was a US state it'd be 5th by size.
Germany is a bit bigger than New Mexico, but a bit smaller than Montana. If it was a US state it'd be 5th by size.
While Germany would be the 5th state by size, it is only 3.6% of the area of the United States.
(Those of us who grew up when there were two Germanies knew it as even smaller - only 2.5% of the US' area...)
I learned this when being berated by my German hosts about the fact that you could at that time mail a letter "anywhere in the country by 4pm" and have it delivered the very next day, as an example of how efficient the Deutsche Post was.
We'd usually make up by drinking some good Weizenbier, so it was all good.
(Those of us who grew up when there were two Germanies knew it as even smaller - only 2.5% of the US' area...)
I learned this when being berated by my German hosts about the fact that you could at that time mail a letter "anywhere in the country by 4pm" and have it delivered the very next day, as an example of how efficient the Deutsche Post was.
We'd usually make up by drinking some good Weizenbier, so it was all good.
Only 3.6% of area but 25% of population
> GW Autobahn Rule 2: Double check your side-view mirror before moving into the left lane!
This was the biggest difference I noticed while driving on the Autobahn; driving in UK and doing 80-90mph, you get used to looking in the mirror and judging how much time you have to overtake, cars in the distance probably won't be doing much more than 20mph more than you.
On the Autobahn I found it much harder to judge how much time I had to overtake, as they could be doing 50+mph more than me, and they'd go from barely visible in the distance to very close much faster than expected.
This was the biggest difference I noticed while driving on the Autobahn; driving in UK and doing 80-90mph, you get used to looking in the mirror and judging how much time you have to overtake, cars in the distance probably won't be doing much more than 20mph more than you.
On the Autobahn I found it much harder to judge how much time I had to overtake, as they could be doing 50+mph more than me, and they'd go from barely visible in the distance to very close much faster than expected.
In the UK everyone's on the right lane anyway, with the other lanes mostly empty.
Except on the M25!
I think it was better if there was a general speed limit at around 120km/h.
Driving in Switzerland or Austria is in general more relaxing and needs much less fuel.
But I have to admit there are things I like about being able to drive 200+km/h. First is acceleration. Being able to put the foot down and just accelerate (even in the end it‘s just accelerating to ~120) feels great. The second factor ist actually driving 200-220km/h. It‘s not really fun but it is a strange feeling. A mixture of of tension and relaxation and hyperfocus. You have Focus on your driving because you know an error (it does not have to be your error) can kill you but on the other hand you fell calm and feel you have control and through your focus everything slows down. It calms me. I would describe it as almost meditation, having never meditated.
I know thinking about it I should not do it, and I should not praise it and I probably should have used a throw away, but it has some appeal and even just writing about it triggers some of those feelings.
> Driving in Switzerland or Austria is in general more relaxing and needs much less fuel
Nobody is forcing you to drive that fast ;)
Nobody is forcing you to drive that fast ;)
It makes a difference when overtaking a truck for example. In Germany it‘s possible that the right lane flows with about 85km/h whereas the left lane is used by “overtakers” with about 180+km/h.
One of the reasons I like three lane Autobahnen. You have the left lane for the racers. You have the right lane for the trucks. And you have the middle lane to overtake trucks. It all works fine until some beep beep beep beep decides that staying in the middle lane all the time is better cause they cannot be bothered to switch lanes every few kilometers.
But don't obey the speed limits too closely. My first few times on the Autobahn, I'd cruise along at a great speed, then slow down to a reasonable approximation of the speed limit, only to have the cars I had passed over the previous 10 minutes blow by me on the left... wash, rinse, repeat.
Driving on the Autobahn is actually quite relaxing when you got three lanes.
On the right there are all the trucks, which aren't allowed more than 80km/h.
On the left all the speeders going as fast as they like.
In the middle you get along with 120-140km/h.
On the right there are all the trucks, which aren't allowed more than 80km/h.
On the left all the speeders going as fast as they like.
In the middle you get along with 120-140km/h.
Love the German autobahn. Did regular trips to Munich which was about 600km in like 3 to 4 hours. Just foot down and see the fuel gauge move, because if the car was flat out I burned almost 30l of fuel per 100km.
I drive on average 25K miles (40K km) per year, mostly intercity and done so for the last 12 years, 10 of them in UK and the last two in the West of Germany.
I used to think autobahn and specifically the lack of speed limits was a great design and that British top speed of 70mph (110km/h) was somewhat dated. Now, having driven about 50K miles (80K km) in Germany, mostly on autobahns, I prefer the design of British motorways.
First the signage. On German autobahns it is extremely easy to miss a speed limit sign. The signs are the same size as regular "slow" road signs and often displayed only on the left side of the autobahn, they are very difficult to spot from afar, can be blocked from view by other vehicles and easy to miss when momentarily concentrating on the situation developing on the road. The speed signs are almost never repeated. On the contrary in UK the signage is done with much better understanding of how humans operate: motorway signs are bigger than their regular road counterparts, easy to spot from afar, installed in clear view on the both sides of the motorway, often repeated a few hundred meters later.
Then the speed limits themselves. They are far from thought through. For example a no speed limit stretch can suddenly, without any apparent reason, have a 80km/h (50mph) limit sign, then 300 or 400 meters later (quarter mile) another sign removing any speed limit. This leads to quite a lot of sudden breaking and many drivers ignore the limit slowing down only to 120km/h or so. Another example would be a "end of all limits" sign after a long 130km/h stretch in the beginning of an steep ascending stretch, followed with the 100km/h limit a mile or later on the top of the hill. Literally encouraging unaware drivers to pointlessly burn fuel accelerating up the hill.
The top speeds can rarely be attained in Germany unless at night. Traffic and roadworks leave a few short stretches where one can go faster than 130km/h. But this leads to constant acceleration and breaking and many many emergency breaking. Chain accidents are very common.
Cruise control is pointless due to constant speed adjustments. Adaptive cruise control doesn't work well either as it requires a certain distance to the car in front to operate safely, but overtaking from the right is very common and most German drivers hence leave a very short distance, essentially tailgating.
I find that the UK system, there traffic progresses steadily at a constant pace of around 70..80mph to be safer and less tiring.
German roadworks, including non-essential, are scheduled with little or no regard to the expected amount of traffic (e.g. public holidays, peak traffic hours etc). In UK system this type of planning gets a lot of consideration.
Diversions on Ferman autobahns are cryptic, signage is very scarce and they are practically impossible to follow without supplemental info (i.e. satnav). Diversions in UK are clearly marked and much easier to follow.
UK rest areas (services) are head and shoulders above their German counterparts and include free toilets.
All in all, I believe, German autobahn network is great, but UK motorway network had much more consideration for how humans work put into its design.
I used to think autobahn and specifically the lack of speed limits was a great design and that British top speed of 70mph (110km/h) was somewhat dated. Now, having driven about 50K miles (80K km) in Germany, mostly on autobahns, I prefer the design of British motorways.
First the signage. On German autobahns it is extremely easy to miss a speed limit sign. The signs are the same size as regular "slow" road signs and often displayed only on the left side of the autobahn, they are very difficult to spot from afar, can be blocked from view by other vehicles and easy to miss when momentarily concentrating on the situation developing on the road. The speed signs are almost never repeated. On the contrary in UK the signage is done with much better understanding of how humans operate: motorway signs are bigger than their regular road counterparts, easy to spot from afar, installed in clear view on the both sides of the motorway, often repeated a few hundred meters later.
Then the speed limits themselves. They are far from thought through. For example a no speed limit stretch can suddenly, without any apparent reason, have a 80km/h (50mph) limit sign, then 300 or 400 meters later (quarter mile) another sign removing any speed limit. This leads to quite a lot of sudden breaking and many drivers ignore the limit slowing down only to 120km/h or so. Another example would be a "end of all limits" sign after a long 130km/h stretch in the beginning of an steep ascending stretch, followed with the 100km/h limit a mile or later on the top of the hill. Literally encouraging unaware drivers to pointlessly burn fuel accelerating up the hill.
The top speeds can rarely be attained in Germany unless at night. Traffic and roadworks leave a few short stretches where one can go faster than 130km/h. But this leads to constant acceleration and breaking and many many emergency breaking. Chain accidents are very common.
Cruise control is pointless due to constant speed adjustments. Adaptive cruise control doesn't work well either as it requires a certain distance to the car in front to operate safely, but overtaking from the right is very common and most German drivers hence leave a very short distance, essentially tailgating.
I find that the UK system, there traffic progresses steadily at a constant pace of around 70..80mph to be safer and less tiring.
German roadworks, including non-essential, are scheduled with little or no regard to the expected amount of traffic (e.g. public holidays, peak traffic hours etc). In UK system this type of planning gets a lot of consideration.
Diversions on Ferman autobahns are cryptic, signage is very scarce and they are practically impossible to follow without supplemental info (i.e. satnav). Diversions in UK are clearly marked and much easier to follow.
UK rest areas (services) are head and shoulders above their German counterparts and include free toilets.
All in all, I believe, German autobahn network is great, but UK motorway network had much more consideration for how humans work put into its design.
"The Autobahn is great! There are no speed limits!"
The first speeding ticket I ever received was from doing 270km/h in my old 2003 Porsche Boxster S I had back in 2013. They took a photo of me, and said that I am "accused" of speeding, and would I very kindly like to send them my personal details to some office in North Germany.
I didn't bother, and they also didn't care to follow up.
The first speeding ticket I ever received was from doing 270km/h in my old 2003 Porsche Boxster S I had back in 2013. They took a photo of me, and said that I am "accused" of speeding, and would I very kindly like to send them my personal details to some office in North Germany.
I didn't bother, and they also didn't care to follow up.
There are speed limits on about half the autobahn, mostly for noise control, to improve traffic flow and around construction zones.
The figure is around 70% [1]
[1] https://de.statista.com/infografik/16725/tempolimitregelunge...
[1] https://de.statista.com/infografik/16725/tempolimitregelunge...
People here are amazed when I tell that story, 120 in a Honda? Is that safe? All I know is it felt rock steady, and the autobahn was so smooth and sweeping it, was nothing to drive at those speeds.
I brought that car back to the states and drove it till 2010. A lady backed into it in a store parking lot. Dented the left rear quarter, totaled the car because it wasn’t worth much at that time. Somewhere there’s Honda with a German owners manual in the US.
Edit typo