Testosterone levels show steady decrease among young US men(urologytimes.com)
urologytimes.com
Testosterone levels show steady decrease among young US men
https://www.urologytimes.com/view/testosterone-levels-show-steady-decrease-among-young-us-men
726 comments
"Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation."
This is a needlessly complex explanation.
Very low physical activity rates are the likely cause.
A majority of men in the US are obese or overweight[1] and, culturally, Americans barely even walk.
Testosterone levels are linked to physical activity.[2][3]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States#P...
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4706091/
[3] https://www.cpandr.co.uk/2018/08/22/the-impact-exercise-has-...
This is a needlessly complex explanation.
Very low physical activity rates are the likely cause.
A majority of men in the US are obese or overweight[1] and, culturally, Americans barely even walk.
Testosterone levels are linked to physical activity.[2][3]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States#P...
[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4706091/
[3] https://www.cpandr.co.uk/2018/08/22/the-impact-exercise-has-...
I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth.
I completely blame the food. Even eating absolute junk in Europe I noticed I lost 5 or 6 pounds over 2 weeks.
Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds. I am a bit dismayed with all the attempts to normalize obesity in the US. I was morbidly obese up until I got serious about my weight in my early 20s. You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works. It's much easier to hop on Reddit and complain though.
I'm very optimistic I'll be able to move to a healthier country once I retire at 40 or so. Not exactly easy to stay in shape when this country tries to pump us all full of corn syrup
I completely blame the food. Even eating absolute junk in Europe I noticed I lost 5 or 6 pounds over 2 weeks.
Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds. I am a bit dismayed with all the attempts to normalize obesity in the US. I was morbidly obese up until I got serious about my weight in my early 20s. You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works. It's much easier to hop on Reddit and complain though.
I'm very optimistic I'll be able to move to a healthier country once I retire at 40 or so. Not exactly easy to stay in shape when this country tries to pump us all full of corn syrup
"I completely blame the food. Even eating absolute junk in Europe I noticed I lost 5 or 6 pounds over 2 weeks."
I don't. Certainly it doesn't help and, of course, Americans should eat much better than they do, but ...
I think the most important factor is that our built and cultural environment are constructed to make us obese.
If one does not live in a modern city center one barely ever walks. Most Americans sit all day - at a desk or in a car.
Further, many Americans are 1-2 generations removed from "the farm" and are still heavily influenced by habits like "three square meals per day" that made great sense on the farm and make no sense at all in the city.
We're bad at being urban.
I contrast us with people I see who are good at being urban. The old Chinese women in the park doing Tai Chi every morning. The 70+ woman I saw running (running!) to get the bus in Zurich. The Spanish people I lived with who sort-of ate one big meal every day at 14:00 ...
We'll get there ...
I don't. Certainly it doesn't help and, of course, Americans should eat much better than they do, but ...
I think the most important factor is that our built and cultural environment are constructed to make us obese.
If one does not live in a modern city center one barely ever walks. Most Americans sit all day - at a desk or in a car.
Further, many Americans are 1-2 generations removed from "the farm" and are still heavily influenced by habits like "three square meals per day" that made great sense on the farm and make no sense at all in the city.
We're bad at being urban.
I contrast us with people I see who are good at being urban. The old Chinese women in the park doing Tai Chi every morning. The 70+ woman I saw running (running!) to get the bus in Zurich. The Spanish people I lived with who sort-of ate one big meal every day at 14:00 ...
We'll get there ...
It really is the food. America was as car dependent in the 70s as they were in today, but if you look at photos then, you'll notice how uncannily THIN everyone was.
If you dig more into it, you'll find the obesity crisis started around the late 70s with a change in dietary guidelines and medical guidelines saying basically 'fat & meat bad' and 'carbs good' along with the widespread introduction of vegetable oils, leading to too much insulin and other hormonal effects slowly increasing diabetes & obesity in our population. Also food companies honing on what obesogenic combos of food lead to people to eat more, buy more and thus get better sales.
Read "The Obesity Code" if you want a more detailed description with a lot of links to papers and studies for more info. [0]
[0] I said this yesterday too in another article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25767604
If you dig more into it, you'll find the obesity crisis started around the late 70s with a change in dietary guidelines and medical guidelines saying basically 'fat & meat bad' and 'carbs good' along with the widespread introduction of vegetable oils, leading to too much insulin and other hormonal effects slowly increasing diabetes & obesity in our population. Also food companies honing on what obesogenic combos of food lead to people to eat more, buy more and thus get better sales.
Read "The Obesity Code" if you want a more detailed description with a lot of links to papers and studies for more info. [0]
[0] I said this yesterday too in another article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25767604
After moving to Japan and living here for a while, I realized when I visited my family back in the US how much of a punch in the face of sweetness/richness literally everything available in US restaurants is; it was honestly exhausting. Plus the fact that the portion sizes are double that of anything here, it's no surprise to me that Americans are obese and Japanese people by and large aren't.
For another anecdote, my wife's friend worked at Starbucks in Canada and in Japan. She said the Frappuccinos in Canada use around double the amount of syrup than those in Japan.
For another anecdote, my wife's friend worked at Starbucks in Canada and in Japan. She said the Frappuccinos in Canada use around double the amount of syrup than those in Japan.
When I moved from Brazil to Canada I was kinda surprised with the portion size in some restaurants here. Also:
> how much of a punch in the face of sweetness/richness literally everything available in US restaurants is
Yeah, too much sugar/salt/syrup/condiments, too many artificial ingredients on things. Today I was talking to my wife how the Cheetos here is not so good, as it has a weird orange color and the taste is way too much superficial. The cheese too. too many cheddar varieties with colors that doesn't seem like something made out of milk.
> how much of a punch in the face of sweetness/richness literally everything available in US restaurants is
Yeah, too much sugar/salt/syrup/condiments, too many artificial ingredients on things. Today I was talking to my wife how the Cheetos here is not so good, as it has a weird orange color and the taste is way too much superficial. The cheese too. too many cheddar varieties with colors that doesn't seem like something made out of milk.
Milk in general is high calorie + high fat and a Starbucks Grande is 5 times the size of a typical coffee I was used to. Not to mention the fact that they charge a good chunk more for other low calorie non-dairy substitutes. A typical meal at an American restaurant is two meals - easily - and our portion sizes are not small by any means.
The sweetness is another major put off. There's no concept of a savory snack here. There's also no culture of an afternoon or tea time snacking. In my personal opinion, having a small post-lunch snack helps me stay satiated for longer and have a much smaller supper instead of a large dinner.
The sweetness is another major put off. There's no concept of a savory snack here. There's also no culture of an afternoon or tea time snacking. In my personal opinion, having a small post-lunch snack helps me stay satiated for longer and have a much smaller supper instead of a large dinner.
American sauerkraut, the kind you can buy in supermarkets, has SUGAR in it! What is wrong with you?!? :-(
Everything has sugar in it. Even Sriracha!!! My experiment with cutting adding sugar completely for a month was the single hardest experiment I ever did with my diet. I lost 10 pounds in a month - absolutely unhealthy and I had to reverse course because of that. But, that's how much sugar there is in American food.
There is a great youtube video about exactly that:
Why is it so Easy to be Thin in Japan?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr4MmmWQtZM
Why is it so Easy to be Thin in Japan?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr4MmmWQtZM
What’s the percentage of food spend in the 70s vs today? If I read the USDA charts, it’s about 13% for the decade of the 70s, declining to under 10% today. So I would expect that as food gets significantly cheaper, people consume more of it.
Are rich people on average fatter than thin people? After all, they can afford more food, so presumably they consume more of it.
Spending has dropped because there are such large subsidies to cheap carbs, and that is the bulk of many people's diets. A steak and veggies is no cheaper than it was 40-50 years ago, but we're eating far more refined junk with additives because it is cheap and convenient.
Spending has dropped because there are such large subsidies to cheap carbs, and that is the bulk of many people's diets. A steak and veggies is no cheaper than it was 40-50 years ago, but we're eating far more refined junk with additives because it is cheap and convenient.
I'm not quite sure what your first point is? Infamously, rich poor are on average thinner (the "poverty obesity" paradox).
I believe the leading hypothesis is that being rich absolves you of the stressors that make junk food attractive. Others are, as you mentioned, the ability to buy more expensive food with more nourishment/satiation per calorie ("protein leverage hypothesis"), or access to nature and refuge from pollution (it's certainly the rich people where I live who ride bicycles.).
Regardless, a poor person from 50 years ago couldn't buy the cheap sugary crap even if they wanted to.
I believe the leading hypothesis is that being rich absolves you of the stressors that make junk food attractive. Others are, as you mentioned, the ability to buy more expensive food with more nourishment/satiation per calorie ("protein leverage hypothesis"), or access to nature and refuge from pollution (it's certainly the rich people where I live who ride bicycles.).
Regardless, a poor person from 50 years ago couldn't buy the cheap sugary crap even if they wanted to.
My post was in response to the parent's statements "If I read the USDA charts, it’s about 13% for the decade of the 70s, declining to under 10% today." and "So I would expect that as food gets significantly cheaper, people consume more of it."
That is, the point of the parent's post was not obviously "crap food is so much cheaper than high quality food", but as most naturally read as "because we can afford more food, we're buying and eating more"
My point was "if that logic holds, I would expect the rich to be significantly fatter than the poor". Which, as you note, is not the case. Nothing more.
That is, the point of the parent's post was not obviously "crap food is so much cheaper than high quality food", but as most naturally read as "because we can afford more food, we're buying and eating more"
My point was "if that logic holds, I would expect the rich to be significantly fatter than the poor". Which, as you note, is not the case. Nothing more.
Portions are now massive.
McDonalds, once upon a time, had small and large sizes of french fries; the little white paper pouch or the red cardboard sleeve. Today I believe they have two even larger sizes. The smallest size of soda doesn’t even exist any more.
Other restaurants have retired round plates and serve meals on platters.
Other restaurants have retired round plates and serve meals on platters.
I also think cheap food tends to be worse for you on average.
This sounds like the equivalent of lead poisoning being one of the causes for the fall of the Roman Empire.
Is there a study about this?
Please check this video on Vegetable Oils: The Unknown Story by the author of the book "The Big Fat Surprise" [1][2].
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2UnOryQiIY
[2]https://www.amazon.com/Big-Fat-Surprise-Butter-Healthy/dp/14...
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2UnOryQiIY
[2]https://www.amazon.com/Big-Fat-Surprise-Butter-Healthy/dp/14...
Don’t forget everyone in the 70s who smoked...
The type and quantity of available food is a huge factor. In the 1970s more people were also involved in jobs that required more physical labor: farming, manufacturing, construction, etc.
>We'll get there ...
You can also write an article for the Huffington Post arguing it's impossible to ever lose weight.
I'm not calling for fat shamming, but you can't be both obese and healthy. You can't really be obese ( over a certain point anyway) and be happy. When I was over 300 pounds every day was an experience in pain.
But it's considered rude even for doctors to say you need to lose weight. I was fortunate enough that an alternative medicine provider told me to just lose weight.
And that said, I'm even reluctant to make the argument above since there's a lot of really angry people who will try to misconcue it and call me a monster or something. But I've been morbidly obese, and I'm in shape now ( still trying to lose that last 10 pounds ) .
Life is better now in every single way.
You can also write an article for the Huffington Post arguing it's impossible to ever lose weight.
I'm not calling for fat shamming, but you can't be both obese and healthy. You can't really be obese ( over a certain point anyway) and be happy. When I was over 300 pounds every day was an experience in pain.
But it's considered rude even for doctors to say you need to lose weight. I was fortunate enough that an alternative medicine provider told me to just lose weight.
And that said, I'm even reluctant to make the argument above since there's a lot of really angry people who will try to misconcue it and call me a monster or something. But I've been morbidly obese, and I'm in shape now ( still trying to lose that last 10 pounds ) .
Life is better now in every single way.
> But it's considered rude even for doctors to say you need to lose weight.
I'm pretty sure this isn't actually true. I mean I'm sure there are some people that get offended, but some people will get offended at anything and being called "overweight" when you are convinced you are just "big boned" isn't pleasant.
I'm pretty sure this isn't actually true. I mean I'm sure there are some people that get offended, but some people will get offended at anything and being called "overweight" when you are convinced you are just "big boned" isn't pleasant.
My doctor told me to lose weight. I wasn't offended, I'm not stupid.
It wasn't my doctor's advice that led to my weight loss though, it was my father dying prematurely. He wasn't even obese, he just had a poor diet and little exercise. A real wake up call.
It wasn't my doctor's advice that led to my weight loss though, it was my father dying prematurely. He wasn't even obese, he just had a poor diet and little exercise. A real wake up call.
> But it's considered rude even for doctors to say you need to lose weight
Really? Is it a US thing?
I'm overweight but not obese, and basically every doctor I've seen for various issues (blood pressure, back pain, sprained ankle) told me to lose weight, in two european countries.
Really? Is it a US thing?
I'm overweight but not obese, and basically every doctor I've seen for various issues (blood pressure, back pain, sprained ankle) told me to lose weight, in two european countries.
> Really?
I don't think so. They may be referring to the fact that it is increasingly becoming an issue of political correctness. But science is pretty clear about the risks of obesity and the medical professions follow that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/business/ama-recognizes-o...
I have a friend who's (US) doctor told he needs to lose weight or he will die. It got him to join a gym at least.
I don't think so. They may be referring to the fact that it is increasingly becoming an issue of political correctness. But science is pretty clear about the risks of obesity and the medical professions follow that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/19/business/ama-recognizes-o...
I have a friend who's (US) doctor told he needs to lose weight or he will die. It got him to join a gym at least.
There is a Far Side cartoon with an obese doctor talking to an obese patient, and the patient says to the doctor, “you’re the first doctor who has not told me to lose weight!“
Obesity is more or less considered to be normal now, it’s a real shift in the last few decades.
Obesity is more or less considered to be normal now, it’s a real shift in the last few decades.
Anecdotal from SoCal, 2 years ago I saw on my doctor’s chart that my BMI placed me in the obese category. She said nothing to me about it. I wish she had bc it was a shock to me. I had become so accustomed to that weight, and everyone I was around was a similar weight so I just didn’t know. If I hadn’t seen it on her chart I would not have made any changes.
With my new doctor, I was looking at my last 2 yrs of blood tests and my LDL cholesterol has been at 105. Losing more weight will help with that, so will changing my diet - but my doctor didn’t point my LDL out as a problem even though it is.
With my new doctor, I was looking at my last 2 yrs of blood tests and my LDL cholesterol has been at 105. Losing more weight will help with that, so will changing my diet - but my doctor didn’t point my LDL out as a problem even though it is.
It would've been the right thing for her to tell you. But unfortunately, if she tells the wrong person she could get called out for fatshaming on social media and probably lose her career nowadays. It's the rational choice to not offend anyone's feelings, when those feelings can be used to crush you and your livelihood.
> You can't really be obese ( over a certain point anyway) and be happy. When I was over 300 pounds every day was an experience in pain.
So if that's the case, why does it matter what the Huffington Post says?
I'm not morbidly obese, so perhaps I've missed the pro-obesity PR. A fashion magazine might give a cover to an obese model once a year, but the other 11 months all seem to have the same rail thin models that have dominated since the '80s.
Same goes for TV and movies. Producers wouldn't hire a fat guy to play Mark David Chapman, it'd be an easier sell to get a fit actor and have him balloon up to that desired weight.
The only obese poeople of renown in our society are older politicians and the rich, i.e. people that do not care about meeting society's beauty standards.
So if that's the case, why does it matter what the Huffington Post says?
I'm not morbidly obese, so perhaps I've missed the pro-obesity PR. A fashion magazine might give a cover to an obese model once a year, but the other 11 months all seem to have the same rail thin models that have dominated since the '80s.
Same goes for TV and movies. Producers wouldn't hire a fat guy to play Mark David Chapman, it'd be an easier sell to get a fit actor and have him balloon up to that desired weight.
The only obese poeople of renown in our society are older politicians and the rich, i.e. people that do not care about meeting society's beauty standards.
>but the other 11 months all seem to have the same rail thin models that have dominated since the '80s
People used to see those and aspire to be like them and improve themselves. Something changed over the last decade or more, and now no one wants to do any better than they currently are. They are despairing in content with themselves.
People used to see those and aspire to be like them and improve themselves. Something changed over the last decade or more, and now no one wants to do any better than they currently are. They are despairing in content with themselves.
>Something changed over the last decade or more, and now no one wants to do any better than they currently are. They are despairing in content with themselves<
People still aspire to be attractive they just don't feel the same social pressure to chase it that they used to. Personally I don't see the problem for the USA, if people are happy being unhealthy then let them be unhealthy. If this was Europe I could see a public cost argument but US businesses are already starting to charge more to people who are inconveniently obese so I don't see why it's a real concern.
People still aspire to be attractive they just don't feel the same social pressure to chase it that they used to. Personally I don't see the problem for the USA, if people are happy being unhealthy then let them be unhealthy. If this was Europe I could see a public cost argument but US businesses are already starting to charge more to people who are inconveniently obese so I don't see why it's a real concern.
> Personally I don't see the problem for the USA, if people are happy being unhealthy then let them be unhealthy.
They're not happy. They're suffering and helpless. That's the problem.
They're not happy. They're suffering and helpless. That's the problem.
"people that do not care about meeting society's beauty standards"
It's not about beauty standards, it's about healthy standards. Remember when there was a push-back from models being too thin? Everyone agreed that it was bad to show ultra-thin models because it was unhealthy and generally unobtainable. The same should be for overweight people, except now we have the concept of body-shaming (which didn't apply to ultra-thin models??). There needs to be more of a focus on self resposibility along with a push-back against the bad practices of the food industry.
It's not about beauty standards, it's about healthy standards. Remember when there was a push-back from models being too thin? Everyone agreed that it was bad to show ultra-thin models because it was unhealthy and generally unobtainable. The same should be for overweight people, except now we have the concept of body-shaming (which didn't apply to ultra-thin models??). There needs to be more of a focus on self resposibility along with a push-back against the bad practices of the food industry.
While it may be true that the American lifestyle is more sedentary, I don't think obesity can be entirely or even mostly explained by that. AFAIK diet generally affects weight more than exercise does; if your diet is energy-heavy, it's very difficult (without being an athlete) to exercise enough to consume as much as your energy surplus from the diet is.
I don't have any references or numbers to back that up, but that's what I've understood from what I've read in papers and heard from some people who apparently did the math.
With that said, physical activity has lots of benefits beyond just weight loss, and it would be worth it to make one's lifestyle non-sedentary in any case.
I don't have any references or numbers to back that up, but that's what I've understood from what I've read in papers and heard from some people who apparently did the math.
With that said, physical activity has lots of benefits beyond just weight loss, and it would be worth it to make one's lifestyle non-sedentary in any case.
You're right, it's impossible to out-exercise a bad diet, but there are secondary reasons that being sedentary leads to weight gain besides just the raw number of calories burned.
For one, an hour you spend exercising or walking around is probably an hour that you're not eating. Many Americans are constantly eating when they're at home, either mindlessly snacking or eating a huge meal. Given that you only have 8 hours between work and sleep, occupying yourself for 1 of those hours could mean a significant decrease in time spent eating.
Incidentally, this is why intermittent fasting works well for some people.
For one, an hour you spend exercising or walking around is probably an hour that you're not eating. Many Americans are constantly eating when they're at home, either mindlessly snacking or eating a huge meal. Given that you only have 8 hours between work and sleep, occupying yourself for 1 of those hours could mean a significant decrease in time spent eating.
Incidentally, this is why intermittent fasting works well for some people.
Well it's not literally impossible to out-exercise a bad diet. Look at what some ultra endurance athletes eat. But those are extreme outliers and that lifestyle isn't really sustainable.
Once you start tracking the energy usage of exercise with a smart watch or similar, you'll notice that even extended exercise consumes almost no energy compared to the energy used simply living. Doing an hour of heavy exercise only changes my total energy usage for the day by a fairly small % compared to no exercise.
Diet is clearly a much more important aspect for weight loss. Exercise has many other benefits though.
Diet is clearly a much more important aspect for weight loss. Exercise has many other benefits though.
I don't know, my Garmin watch says my daily 1h-1.5h long walk burns about 500-600 calories. It could be wildly inaccurate. But it definitely gives me more cushion to eat comfortably during the day that is for sure! I realize it is dwarfed by the 2000+ calories I burn naturally but that is almost another meal in calories.
You burn about 100-150 calories just by existing for 1h-1.5h, so walking for an hour or so only gets you an additional 400 calories. Versus eating, you can consume a 400 calorie cookie in one minute.
When I lost 70lbs, I did so by deciding it was easier just to not consume the calories in the first place rather than trying to burn them off.
When I lost 70lbs, I did so by deciding it was easier just to not consume the calories in the first place rather than trying to burn them off.
It’s really a case of the rich getting richer when it comes to exercise, because if you’re fitter you can sustain a calorie burn rate far higher than someone who isn’t.
On my bike I have a power meter which uses strain guages and an accelerometer to calculate force x distance / time at the crankset so I have accurate calorie burn numbers.
Riding for an hour at the output a generally sedentary person can manage, I’ll burn sub 500 calories. Riding at my maximum output for an hour burns about 1000. Given that the recommended energy intake for a day is 2500, you can see what a difference that makes proportionally to what you can consume.
On my bike I have a power meter which uses strain guages and an accelerometer to calculate force x distance / time at the crankset so I have accurate calorie burn numbers.
Riding for an hour at the output a generally sedentary person can manage, I’ll burn sub 500 calories. Riding at my maximum output for an hour burns about 1000. Given that the recommended energy intake for a day is 2500, you can see what a difference that makes proportionally to what you can consume.
Indeed, energy intake is a big part of the equation and indeed a single run/exercise will not burn off a gigantic amount of calories. What repeated exercise does do is to raise your metabolism and increase muscle mass which will increase energy consumption at rest and combat all kinds of other symptoms.
Heart rate or step based calorie tracking is so inaccurate that you might as well just use Math.random.
The fact that companies sell you these “features” in products is a scandal in my opinion, because it’s nothing more than a totally inappropriate guess. They always overestimate based on my experience when compared against actual output measurements, and that can only be harmful to people that are trying to use them to lose weight.
The fact that companies sell you these “features” in products is a scandal in my opinion, because it’s nothing more than a totally inappropriate guess. They always overestimate based on my experience when compared against actual output measurements, and that can only be harmful to people that are trying to use them to lose weight.
An average 10km run burns 600cal. Sure just living burns 2000cal, but its a noticeable change.
In Addition, for most people its much easier to track their exercise, than pedantic tracking calories.
A casual search on google says a chocolate bar is about 500~600 calories ... so you could maybe skip that chocolate bar and not feel the need to run so much.
(Not to totally give up exercise tho' - there are other health benefits besides losing weight)
(Not to totally give up exercise tho' - there are other health benefits besides losing weight)
This is often expressed as: You can't outrun your fork.
It's really that baseline metabolic burn is pretty high, you have to work a lot to double the number of calories you burn, but it's easy to eat double your metabolic needs
That tracks with what's written in The Hacker's Diet, and I think it's largely right. If you look at how much running you need to do to burn off a daily burger it's intimidating.
The only caveat I've learned is that weightlifting can make a dent. It's one of the few things where as you improve, you can burn more calories in the same amount of time instead of fewer (partly because you're doing more work as you add weights, partly because the muscle you build is more metabolically expensive to maintain).
I also had success restructuring my life so accessing food was way more of a hassle. Kept a mostly empty fridge. Meal prepped so only whole meals were there. Don't take money unless I know I need to buy something, found a few reasonable options at local sandwich places that became routine, etc.
I'd love to see a correlational study on fridge size and obesity. In America we buy SUV fulls of food, in Europe it's much smaller frequent trips, i.e. generally higher hassle per calorie.
The only caveat I've learned is that weightlifting can make a dent. It's one of the few things where as you improve, you can burn more calories in the same amount of time instead of fewer (partly because you're doing more work as you add weights, partly because the muscle you build is more metabolically expensive to maintain).
I also had success restructuring my life so accessing food was way more of a hassle. Kept a mostly empty fridge. Meal prepped so only whole meals were there. Don't take money unless I know I need to buy something, found a few reasonable options at local sandwich places that became routine, etc.
I'd love to see a correlational study on fridge size and obesity. In America we buy SUV fulls of food, in Europe it's much smaller frequent trips, i.e. generally higher hassle per calorie.
>easy to eat double your metabolic needs
Or more! When I started losing weight, my target was 1600 kcals a day. I learned that I was eating 1600+ calories __every single meal__, plus snacks. Pasta is the devil y'all.
Or more! When I started losing weight, my target was 1600 kcals a day. I learned that I was eating 1600+ calories __every single meal__, plus snacks. Pasta is the devil y'all.
> Pasta is the devil y'all.
And yet Italians are generally slim and healthy :)
And yet Italians are generally slim and healthy :)
To be fair they don't eat all that much pasta.
The sum of kcals is not as easy as that,
In take is the kcal of the food times the digestion factor. The kcal out is the metabolic need, which depend on factors such as fat building vs energy usage, which in turn is influenced by stress but also things like dieting.
This is why counting calories can be an ineffective strategy for some while for others it is a good match.
In take is the kcal of the food times the digestion factor. The kcal out is the metabolic need, which depend on factors such as fat building vs energy usage, which in turn is influenced by stress but also things like dieting.
This is why counting calories can be an ineffective strategy for some while for others it is a good match.
kcal of food is still an upper bound on bioavailable kcals
Let put this is numbers for illustration purposes.
Let say 1000 kcal in, and for an average healthy person 1000 kcal in metabolic rate.
For digestion, this person eat mostly proteins resulting in about 20% of kcal going into energy for the digestion system itself (proteins is relative hard to break down). Let also say that in addition, sloppy digestion and incorrect gut bacteria is resulting in additional 20% of the food never getting digested and resulting in feces. Result is a loss of 400.
If thats the whole story you have a person that is loosing weight despite keeping a diet that seemingly fulfills their calories need.
Lets now change metabolic aspects. Rather than suffering from bad digestion they are suffering from chronic stress with high cortisol, adrenal and other stress hormones. The body crave more food that cost less to digest, ie fat and sugar, insulin is spiking in order to get the body to take up more energy, the body goes into lethargic state in order to save energy, muscle and organ cell production is decreased in favor of fat cells. Instead of 1000 kcal in metabolic rate we might have 600 kcal, with now a surplus of +400 going into fat production.
The upper bound on bioavailable kcals is still 1000 kcal, but the numbers won't tell you if the person is going to loose weight or gain it, unless the person is in good healthy to begin with.
Let say 1000 kcal in, and for an average healthy person 1000 kcal in metabolic rate.
For digestion, this person eat mostly proteins resulting in about 20% of kcal going into energy for the digestion system itself (proteins is relative hard to break down). Let also say that in addition, sloppy digestion and incorrect gut bacteria is resulting in additional 20% of the food never getting digested and resulting in feces. Result is a loss of 400.
If thats the whole story you have a person that is loosing weight despite keeping a diet that seemingly fulfills their calories need.
Lets now change metabolic aspects. Rather than suffering from bad digestion they are suffering from chronic stress with high cortisol, adrenal and other stress hormones. The body crave more food that cost less to digest, ie fat and sugar, insulin is spiking in order to get the body to take up more energy, the body goes into lethargic state in order to save energy, muscle and organ cell production is decreased in favor of fat cells. Instead of 1000 kcal in metabolic rate we might have 600 kcal, with now a surplus of +400 going into fat production.
The upper bound on bioavailable kcals is still 1000 kcal, but the numbers won't tell you if the person is going to loose weight or gain it, unless the person is in good healthy to begin with.
I found this pasta made purely from peas or beans in the shop. They are a bit harder to eat but fill you up much faster and feel lighter in the stomach. (And they have less carbs and more protein.) If you like pasta I can recommend trying this.
Hmmm this makes me think of powerlifters. Curating a 'power gut' is pretty normal for competing lifters (even hobbyists).
Intuition would make me wager testosterone levels of you average powerlifter would be in the higher ranges (necessary to build muscle), despite not generally being lean.
Intuition would make me wager testosterone levels of you average powerlifter would be in the higher ranges (necessary to build muscle), despite not generally being lean.
> Further, many Americans are 1-2 generations removed from "the farm" and are still heavily influenced by habits like "three square meals per day" that made great sense on the farm and make no sense at all in the city.
Meh, Americans snack all the time. French people are anal about their meal structures and times and we’re not fat.
Meh, Americans snack all the time. French people are anal about their meal structures and times and we’re not fat.
It's weird how HN commenters consider free office snacks as an employee "benefit" and complain when they're taken away. I'd rather the company not put any snacks out and remove the temptation. For most of us that work at computers all day we really don't need extra snacks.
The bigger and unhealthier you are, the less motivated you may be to get up and leave your desk.
Or...to quit and become a lumberjack, etc.
Or...to quit and become a lumberjack, etc.
I concur. I am French living in US. And I do not snack at all. I only have 3 meals a day. And I try hard to get a lighter dinner (dinners here are generally too big for me).
I don't like to go to parties with an empty stomach, because of the poor choice of food there (chips, salsa, cake, cookies, etc.). If I go with an empty stomach, I know I would not resist, and I would feel sick and bloated later, high on sugar & salt, and dehydrated with alcohol.
Just don't snack.
I don't like to go to parties with an empty stomach, because of the poor choice of food there (chips, salsa, cake, cookies, etc.). If I go with an empty stomach, I know I would not resist, and I would feel sick and bloated later, high on sugar & salt, and dehydrated with alcohol.
Just don't snack.
One time I went to a restaurant in upstate New York and I swear to god, I ordered the chicken and an entire roasted chicken arrived on a plate! The mashed potatoes came in a second plate and I spent the first 15 minutes laughing at how ridiculous it all was.
Oh, and my meal without drinks was like $16.
portion size is generally way way way too big in the US. I always put on weight when I visit the US.
I live in China, I can assure you there are plenty of obese chinese people here in the major cities I've been to. It's not as bad as the US, and the culture is more aggressively against it, but it's not uncommon. Obesity is a problem that most developing nations are facing. You can buy junk food anywhere.
> If one does not live in a modern city center one barely ever walks. Most Americans sit all day - at a desk or in a car.
As opposed to someone in China, where we must do such extraneous physical activities like order take-out delivered to our place less than 15 minutes, then order a masseuse to come give us a massage and finally order a bottle of wine to top the night off, all without needing to get out of bed.
> If one does not live in a modern city center one barely ever walks. Most Americans sit all day - at a desk or in a car.
As opposed to someone in China, where we must do such extraneous physical activities like order take-out delivered to our place less than 15 minutes, then order a masseuse to come give us a massage and finally order a bottle of wine to top the night off, all without needing to get out of bed.
As a formerly obese American, I need to say you are both right.
The food ingredients in this country are, on average, garbage. With careful shopping you can get around this but it does take effort and vigilence.
Cultural expectations around both diet (especially portion size) and exercise (I cite the walking thing a lot too) are also bad. It takes effort to avoid those hazards.
I think both of these and probably a few other factors are a terrible combination that compliment each other in a bad way.
The food ingredients in this country are, on average, garbage. With careful shopping you can get around this but it does take effort and vigilence.
Cultural expectations around both diet (especially portion size) and exercise (I cite the walking thing a lot too) are also bad. It takes effort to avoid those hazards.
I think both of these and probably a few other factors are a terrible combination that compliment each other in a bad way.
Portion sizes are a huge factor. My wife tried a few new recipes this week. All of them said they serve 4. We are a household of two adults and one almost adult and didn't eat half of what she prepared (they all tasted great).
That said, I'm 30 lbs heavier than I was a decade ago. I know WHAT I need to do (exercise more, drink less), it's just been hard to get back into better habits.
That said, I'm 30 lbs heavier than I was a decade ago. I know WHAT I need to do (exercise more, drink less), it's just been hard to get back into better habits.
Vietnam has the lowest adult obesity rate yet is the 8th most sedentary population. The only thing I see that accounts for this is the lack of cheap, processed foods. The Vietnamese diet is largely prepared at home from scratch. Sugar is not crammed into every effing thing you eat the way it is in the U.S.
Were you travelling in Europe? I typically lose weight while travelling because I'm walking more and have fewer snacks around. This includes months in the US last year where pace and timing of a lot of our driving meant we ate fast food a bit. It was hot so we couldn't stash chocolate/ice cream, we didn't have access to a fridge so we didn't scoff leftovers, etc. We mostly lived out of a cooler and cooked on fires. We walked around exploring cities/towns where many residents would not have though. The number of mobility scooters and the like is incredible.
I lived in Europe for multiple years and then moved to the US. I gained a lot of weight. This had to do with both less of an effective culture of walking and public transit in the city I lived in the US. And also the quality and availability of relatively healthy, tasty foods at a reasonable price.
I’ve also had the same experience on shorter (few month) stays in Europe, while still working a 9-5.
I’ve also had the same experience on shorter (few month) stays in Europe, while still working a 9-5.
When I came to the Philippines I was shocked by the large number of obese people here. I thought it would be like China because that was my only reference point in SE Asia. Relatively speaking, it's not as bad as the States or the UK but it's getting there. If you look back only a few generations, you'll see what happened here: they were colonized by the US and adopted Western-style processed food and soft drinks. Also, car ownership is a new thing for most families. Before WW2 this was not the case, and thus there was far less obesity.
Western style != American style.
Philippines was part of the Spanish crown and had Spanish customs. Plenty of European (Western) countries have balanced diets and healthy lifestyles.
Philippines was part of the Spanish crown and had Spanish customs. Plenty of European (Western) countries have balanced diets and healthy lifestyles.
Sure, for you and I it's not equivalent.
But for them, it might as well be. People simply did not eat large amounts of packaged, processed food only a few generations ago, like people do everywhere in the west, including the EU.
But for them, it might as well be. People simply did not eat large amounts of packaged, processed food only a few generations ago, like people do everywhere in the west, including the EU.
I just complained about the use of "western diet" as a catch-all epithet for unhealthy, processed food.
I barely walk, but I've been losing weight like mad because I've been cooking at home everyday now, not eating fast food, and not drinking soda. Look at the ingredients for any premade foods, even the ones that bill themselves as healthy, they are mostly sugars and carbs and sauces containing HFCS. Also, the caloric density is insane, one "meal" can be upwards of 1500 or 2000 calories if you ignore their "suggested serving" which is unrealistic to what people eat.
Also, exercise accounts for maybe a hundred or two calories a day for the average person who isn't into marathons or something, so the only true way to lose weight is to decrease what you eat.
It's not lack of exercise, that's the way these corporations try to blame you for being lazy so you forget their food is garbage that's making you fat.
Also, exercise accounts for maybe a hundred or two calories a day for the average person who isn't into marathons or something, so the only true way to lose weight is to decrease what you eat.
It's not lack of exercise, that's the way these corporations try to blame you for being lazy so you forget their food is garbage that's making you fat.
Only in US there's this serving size bullshit that requires effort to figure out how much you're actually eating.
Exactly, that's why we're fat as fuck. We don't have the same culinary habits as most of the world. I ate a cookie for lunch today: it was 500 calories.
I personally think that body composition is 80% food and 20% work.
Yes, driving cars everywhere is not great. But we’re also more obese than other car dependent cultures, so it’s not a satisfactory answer to say that it’s entirely about being sedentary.
Yes, driving cars everywhere is not great. But we’re also more obese than other car dependent cultures, so it’s not a satisfactory answer to say that it’s entirely about being sedentary.
I agree that there is a big cultural factor here. I wish people focused on this more. So many people want to look at correlations like income:BMI that don’t generalize to other countries or cultures. Really what they expose are cultural and societal idiosyncrasies, much more than they expose that “cheap food is not healthy”. Of course, that is less appealing to an epidemiologist because the cause and effect is less clear and has much greater implications than recommending more exercise.
I actually lost weight when I moved from Switzerland to the US. The food just all felt somehow gross, so I didn’t eat much (also the options on campus were incredibly limited, apart from these horrible undergraduate dining halls there were few normal choices and most only served food for around 2 hours - the food at the supermarket also felt strange)
I’m curious, how did the food in the supermarket feel strange?
I eat mostly fruits, veggies and meats. Pretty much 80% natural foods. But I live in east Asia now so it’s easier to do that and with more variety.
But, I don’t recall American supermarkets food feeling strange. Unless you mean the processed stuff?
I eat mostly fruits, veggies and meats. Pretty much 80% natural foods. But I live in east Asia now so it’s easier to do that and with more variety.
But, I don’t recall American supermarkets food feeling strange. Unless you mean the processed stuff?
The processed food I avoided mostly, though I do that in Europe as well.
For the rest of it: might just be my perception to be honest, my impression was that the fruits and vegetables tasted very watery with little flavour, as if they were grown in the most efficient way to bring them to market quickly. Same for the meat, was kind of floppy and the cheese just didn't taste like much. There were some good things from farmers markets, but at absurd prices.
I see differences in Europe as well, e.g. I think the quality in Switzerland is better than Germany and Austria. In Spain and France I was able to get really good food, probably because it's closer to where it is produced.
Again this might be my perception, didn't do a blind tasting. Unless the food is specially prepared to be stored (like fermented food, cheese, etc.), I don't think the highly industrial production, refrigeration and long transportation is doing the quality any favours.
For the rest of it: might just be my perception to be honest, my impression was that the fruits and vegetables tasted very watery with little flavour, as if they were grown in the most efficient way to bring them to market quickly. Same for the meat, was kind of floppy and the cheese just didn't taste like much. There were some good things from farmers markets, but at absurd prices.
I see differences in Europe as well, e.g. I think the quality in Switzerland is better than Germany and Austria. In Spain and France I was able to get really good food, probably because it's closer to where it is produced.
Again this might be my perception, didn't do a blind tasting. Unless the food is specially prepared to be stored (like fermented food, cheese, etc.), I don't think the highly industrial production, refrigeration and long transportation is doing the quality any favours.
This isn't the first time I've heard this, and a quick Google search with the right keywords brings up:
https://www.greenoptimistic.com/fruit-vegetables-taste-europ...
https://www.treehugger.com/why-doesnt-american-produce-taste...
The key point seems to be that we prioritize the looks, which unintentionally affects taste.
https://www.greenoptimistic.com/fruit-vegetables-taste-europ...
https://www.treehugger.com/why-doesnt-american-produce-taste...
The key point seems to be that we prioritize the looks, which unintentionally affects taste.
Walking burns like, what, 5 kcal/minute (generous)? If non-Americans walk on average 20 more minutes a day (generous), that's like 100 kcal per day. Or about 7kg at 15 kcal/kg basal metabolic rate, not taking into account for increased appetite.
While you have a good point, I want to nitpick a little:
As an American who recently moved to Europe, I don't think 20 minutes of walking per day is being generous. COVID-related measures aside, I find I add about 20min/day of walking easily, and more if I need to do something (e.g. buying groceries). Now, in the US I own a car and here I do not -- but in my Midwestern town I am totally obligated to own and operate a car. Here in Europe I get along fine with walking, riding a bike, and using public transport.
As an American who recently moved to Europe, I don't think 20 minutes of walking per day is being generous. COVID-related measures aside, I find I add about 20min/day of walking easily, and more if I need to do something (e.g. buying groceries). Now, in the US I own a car and here I do not -- but in my Midwestern town I am totally obligated to own and operate a car. Here in Europe I get along fine with walking, riding a bike, and using public transport.
> I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth.
Yes but not by a very wide margin. [1]
Average BMI in the US is 28.5, Saudi Arabia is the same, Mexico is 28.1, New Zealand is 27.9, UK is 27.3, Canada is 27.2.
My point is that the impression that the US is unreasonably fat compared to the rest of the world is mostly just bias.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass...
Yes but not by a very wide margin. [1]
Average BMI in the US is 28.5, Saudi Arabia is the same, Mexico is 28.1, New Zealand is 27.9, UK is 27.3, Canada is 27.2.
My point is that the impression that the US is unreasonably fat compared to the rest of the world is mostly just bias.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass...
I don't have any stats to back this up, but the impression I got from the states is that the weight gain is distributed unequally.
Some people seemed very very fat.
Edit found something that would support that idea.
Proportion of people who are obese over the globe: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-men-defined-as-o... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-females-defined-...
Some people seemed very very fat.
Edit found something that would support that idea.
Proportion of people who are obese over the globe: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-men-defined-as-o... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-females-defined-...
This matches my feelings. I'm Australian and id say the average person is overweight but not very overweight. I don't know how common this is in the US but you see those photos of people in Walmart with fat hanging over both sides of the scooter and its something I don't think I have ever seen in Australia.
At least in my rural part of the U.S., you are likely to see one such morbidly obese person at any given WalMart at any given time of the day. But that’s unique to WalMart. You may see such a person at other stores, but something about WalMart attracts the morbidly obese. Then and pickups with lift kits and guys with camo ballcaps.
> photos of people in walmart
Walmarts are everywhere, there are thousands of them and millions of people in them every day. You're going to see the best and the worst just because of sheer numbers.
Not saying that the fatest American isn't fatter than the fatest Australian but "people of walmart" is a bit of a misnomer because you only need one picture of a fat person in a Walmart and there's literally millions of opportunities each day to see that one example.
Walmarts are everywhere, there are thousands of them and millions of people in them every day. You're going to see the best and the worst just because of sheer numbers.
Not saying that the fatest American isn't fatter than the fatest Australian but "people of walmart" is a bit of a misnomer because you only need one picture of a fat person in a Walmart and there's literally millions of opportunities each day to see that one example.
Averages can easily be misleading in analysis like this, so I don't think you can draw that conclusion.
The US is unreasonably fat today compared to the US 50 years ago. That seems like a more useful comparison than looking at other countries.
I think you are just pointing out very car reliant countries. London has good public transit, but the rest is extremely car dependant.
This shows IMO in obesity rates - they are significantly lower in London than the rest of the UK.
This shows IMO in obesity rates - they are significantly lower in London than the rest of the UK.
Same thing in many US cities where walking is the norm.
The other major factor is wealth. Richer people can afford higher quality food. Poor people generally consume more calories from junk foods and sugary drinks, which are staples of drive-throughs and fast food chains.
The other major factor is wealth. Richer people can afford higher quality food. Poor people generally consume more calories from junk foods and sugary drinks, which are staples of drive-throughs and fast food chains.
Not sure that the UK is that car reliant. I guess in rural areas, but that's true in most countries. In cities, not at all.
62% of all trips in the UK are made by car, compared to 26% by foot, 6% by bus, 3% by train, 2% by bicycle. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
It is not as entirely car dominated as the USA, but I think it's pretty fair to call it "car reliant".
It is not as entirely car dominated as the USA, but I think it's pretty fair to call it "car reliant".
It very much depends on the city. London has excellent public transport (and is horrible for driving), other cities are much more mixed.
I'd say the average misses the point here. That's quite a lot people! All addicted to sugar and fast food. This is a huge market. Same as the market for fighting the results of this unhealthy life style.
> Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds.
If you are gaining 7 pounds in 3 days, I imagine the vast majority is just water weight, which can probably be attributed to the salt levels in the junk food more than anything else.
If you are gaining 7 pounds in 3 days, I imagine the vast majority is just water weight, which can probably be attributed to the salt levels in the junk food more than anything else.
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I was in Germany for some time, I thought I would lose weight walking everywhere and eating differently; but I actually didn't lose a single pound. I don't know if muscle replaced fat, but I felt I looked the same and weighed the same. I was truly baffled.
During the early pandemic, I stopped drinking for 3-4 months...and still didn't lose any weight. I honestly don't understand the human body.
During the early pandemic, I stopped drinking for 3-4 months...and still didn't lose any weight. I honestly don't understand the human body.
Genuine question: do you have biscuits, confectionery or ice cream in your home normally?
The most shocking thing to me when I first moved alone was how easy it was too eat a ton of sugar, without realising it till after.
My solution these days is to just ensure its not there, and commit to not getting takeaway (easy if I think about all the money I save).
Even doing all that, I still have habits I need to keep up: eating toast too often is a problem, for example. I've eliminated peanut butter entirely. Don't eat lunch when I'm at a desk job and replace it with just mid afternoon coffee to keep me going.
The human body is stupidly efficient, unfortunately.
The most shocking thing to me when I first moved alone was how easy it was too eat a ton of sugar, without realising it till after.
My solution these days is to just ensure its not there, and commit to not getting takeaway (easy if I think about all the money I save).
Even doing all that, I still have habits I need to keep up: eating toast too often is a problem, for example. I've eliminated peanut butter entirely. Don't eat lunch when I'm at a desk job and replace it with just mid afternoon coffee to keep me going.
The human body is stupidly efficient, unfortunately.
I think you need to count calories to really know what your eating. I did it as an experiment for a week, it really interesting to see how fast you blow through your daily calories snacking or adding sauce
Yes, do this.
It's shocking how much of your calorie budget a sugared soft drink has.
It's shocking how much of your calorie budget a sugared soft drink has.
Strangely, it’s both most of your calorie budget, and none of it at the same time.
Soft drinks have a ton of calories which have to go somewhere; we all know that. The paradox is that the human brain does not generally treat liquid calories as calories. So even though you might drink down 300 calories of soda, your brain will not adjust your hunger levels to match. This is obviously very bad.
Soft drinks have a ton of calories which have to go somewhere; we all know that. The paradox is that the human brain does not generally treat liquid calories as calories. So even though you might drink down 300 calories of soda, your brain will not adjust your hunger levels to match. This is obviously very bad.
Oh yes, satiety of food is a hidden thing people don't talk about.
Eat warm porridge and on average you will feel twice as full as the equivalent calories in white bread: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3cf/3b7d71a7485e6355e49b2e...
Eat warm porridge and on average you will feel twice as full as the equivalent calories in white bread: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3cf/3b7d71a7485e6355e49b2e...
Anecdotes in this thread aside this is exactly what you would expect. I believe there is strong evidence for a metabolic set point maintained by the body established after some period of time. If you can maintain a weight for a year or something you body works to keep it.
> You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works.
Counterpoint: I got in great shape in my early 20s, but didn't have much luck with dating because I was still a "Reddit niceguys"-style jerk
Later on I stopped being a jerk, and even though I ballooned back to a very stately American weight I had way better luck with dating. Including "attractive females" as a young involuntarily-celibate gentleman might say
Counterpoint: I got in great shape in my early 20s, but didn't have much luck with dating because I was still a "Reddit niceguys"-style jerk
Later on I stopped being a jerk, and even though I ballooned back to a very stately American weight I had way better luck with dating. Including "attractive females" as a young involuntarily-celibate gentleman might say
Agree. Try to be a good person and be honest. Treat your hygiene as important, clean up your home and maybe think a little bit about some clothes that look nice on you. That's all you need to do.
Assuming you're at least moderately physically attractive.
And even then, the quality of partners you can attract in terms of looks is non-linearly decreasing as your own physical attractiveness drops. OkCupid studies have proven that women find 80% of men below average looking.
If you don't happen to be at least average in terms of looks, things are looking grim.
If you don't happen to be at least average in terms of looks, things are looking grim.
This is like looking at hiring statistics and deciding you'll never get a FAANG job unless you went to a top-tier university
Going on a dating site and messaging attractive women there is like sending resumes into the online job sites for Google/Facebook/etc. MAYBE you'll get a response, but more likely you're just wasting your time.
In the working world, you can build up your skills and network to get a referral
In the dating world, you can improve your hygeine/personality and get an introduction via mutual friends/family/family's friends/family's friends' coworkers.
Going on a dating site and messaging attractive women there is like sending resumes into the online job sites for Google/Facebook/etc. MAYBE you'll get a response, but more likely you're just wasting your time.
In the working world, you can build up your skills and network to get a referral
In the dating world, you can improve your hygeine/personality and get an introduction via mutual friends/family/family's friends/family's friends' coworkers.
Speak!
The best way to meet people will always be to leave your house and become socially active. You may even meet people of various genders just to hang out with ! Online dating profiles are more mostly bots / con artist anyway. The FTC filing against Match goes into detail here.
The best fun I've had was on the way to the club with my amazing friends, irrespective of if I meet anyone that night. The biggest sin of social media has been to convince people they didn't need real friends .
The world is great, is you save the 40$ a month Match.com cost for 12 months you can afford a trip to London or Paris, then at least you'll have some interesting stories to share at your local bar!
The best way to meet people will always be to leave your house and become socially active. You may even meet people of various genders just to hang out with ! Online dating profiles are more mostly bots / con artist anyway. The FTC filing against Match goes into detail here.
The best fun I've had was on the way to the club with my amazing friends, irrespective of if I meet anyone that night. The biggest sin of social media has been to convince people they didn't need real friends .
The world is great, is you save the 40$ a month Match.com cost for 12 months you can afford a trip to London or Paris, then at least you'll have some interesting stories to share at your local bar!
And why do you think that would be any different?
Do you seriously believe women will suddenly view a physically unattractive male as sexually desirable just because they got an introduction? It doesn't happen.
Raw sexual attraction is not something one builds towards with friend/family introductions/referrals and good hygiene. It's a visceral, almost animal-like condition that manifests at the drop of a hat and physical appearance (face, height, build) is _the_ most (if not the only) important attribute.
Those that have won the genetic lottery are smooth sailing. The sky is the limit.
Those that are average have to put in work to get results (and there are definite limits, they will hit a ceiling).
Those that have lost the genetic lottery are kneecapped from the get-go and they're looking at a vastly diminished set of possible partners and opportunities.
Do you seriously believe women will suddenly view a physically unattractive male as sexually desirable just because they got an introduction? It doesn't happen.
Raw sexual attraction is not something one builds towards with friend/family introductions/referrals and good hygiene. It's a visceral, almost animal-like condition that manifests at the drop of a hat and physical appearance (face, height, build) is _the_ most (if not the only) important attribute.
Those that have won the genetic lottery are smooth sailing. The sky is the limit.
Those that are average have to put in work to get results (and there are definite limits, they will hit a ceiling).
Those that have lost the genetic lottery are kneecapped from the get-go and they're looking at a vastly diminished set of possible partners and opportunities.
Beware typical-mind fallacy. This is a common source of friction even within couples. People don't all experience attraction the same way, for the same reasons, with the same curve of intensity over time. People don't all assign it the same weight in their relationship decisions. Especially across gender lines. Social and behavioral factors can be a lot more important than you'd think. Confidence, competence, humor, status. Cultural archetypes. Personal archetypes. Social proof. Trust, care, familiarity.
Will she sleep with him that night? Probably not. Would she agree to a date right away? Also probably not. Six months later, after a dozen group social events, might she have a serious crush? Decent chance. (Might his fast-burning infatuation be dead by then? Also yes, been there done that).
Will she sleep with him that night? Probably not. Would she agree to a date right away? Also probably not. Six months later, after a dozen group social events, might she have a serious crush? Decent chance. (Might his fast-burning infatuation be dead by then? Also yes, been there done that).
If you have others to vouch for you it's helpful since one thing everyone look for is creepiness - how much of a danger could you be? If you're just shy or awkward it might mean tough luck since it's hard to differentiate, but with an introduction this is much easier to overcome.
Seriously, the first hurdle is not 'is this guy sexually attractive' but 'is this guy potentially dangerous', and it's far safer to err on the side of caution.
Seriously, the first hurdle is not 'is this guy sexually attractive' but 'is this guy potentially dangerous', and it's far safer to err on the side of caution.
I've never seen anyone imply: "this person is not a danger"...
I guess you can get some signals, sometimes... For when a person IS a danger.
But anyhow, most abuse happens in the privacy of a home, so I don't think I'd be able to vouch for anyone to really not be a creep. You never know what side of their personality people might be keeping hidden.
I guess you can get some signals, sometimes... For when a person IS a danger.
But anyhow, most abuse happens in the privacy of a home, so I don't think I'd be able to vouch for anyone to really not be a creep. You never know what side of their personality people might be keeping hidden.
The signals that someone isn't a danger are not in any way related to if they are or not from what I can tell.
Creamy, I am 42 and I spent most of my dating period offline.
There is more to sexual attraction than photos. Sense of humor plays a great role. If you can make a girl laugh out loud, you're half way to wherever you want to have her. As are other elements of personality; some people are so irresistible in person that you forget their homely face. This works for both sexes, btw.
Yes, this does not work on Tinder, unfortunately. Dating apps are absolutely unnatural in this regard, very one-dimensional.
There is more to sexual attraction than photos. Sense of humor plays a great role. If you can make a girl laugh out loud, you're half way to wherever you want to have her. As are other elements of personality; some people are so irresistible in person that you forget their homely face. This works for both sexes, btw.
Yes, this does not work on Tinder, unfortunately. Dating apps are absolutely unnatural in this regard, very one-dimensional.
Physical appearance really isn't the be-all and end-all you seem to think it is. Social status is also important. Being well liked and respected, highly skilled, charismatic, or just plain rich, all confer social status. High status people hang out with other high status people. An introduction from a high-status person implies that you also have high status, and does indeed carry value.
Not when it comes to sexual attraction. Women are not sexually attracted to your wallet or social circle.
Sure high social status alone can help you land relationships but absent raw physical attraction, the foundation will be shaky. There is such a thing as a trophy wife / gold digger after all.
Sure high social status alone can help you land relationships but absent raw physical attraction, the foundation will be shaky. There is such a thing as a trophy wife / gold digger after all.
This raw "sexual attraction" stat you're going on about is basically the only thing that comes through on a dating app for hookups, but it's WAY less important when you meet someone in person and kick off an actual relationship. Especially if you meet them at a group outing with mutual friends.
Instead of being a sweaty, nervous wreck desperately trying to hold an awkward conversation, you could just be a cool dude hanging out with his friends, playing Fortnite or hacking firmware or making pizza. Your date can see what actually makes you cool and fun, instead of just seeing some fake persona you've constructed.. and if she doesn't like it, forget about her.
People tried to tell me this when I was a kid/younger man, and I just assumed they were all a bunch of ignorant old fools. I didn't figure it out on my own until I was in my 30s, and then I was married before I knew it.
I do my best to try and pass this advice on whenever I can, even though I know that most guys who had the same issue as me won't heed it. Shockingly, I explained this to my greasy 12 year old nephew when he was complaining about women.. at the time he basically told me to piss off, but a few months later he had a girlfriend, haha.
Instead of being a sweaty, nervous wreck desperately trying to hold an awkward conversation, you could just be a cool dude hanging out with his friends, playing Fortnite or hacking firmware or making pizza. Your date can see what actually makes you cool and fun, instead of just seeing some fake persona you've constructed.. and if she doesn't like it, forget about her.
People tried to tell me this when I was a kid/younger man, and I just assumed they were all a bunch of ignorant old fools. I didn't figure it out on my own until I was in my 30s, and then I was married before I knew it.
I do my best to try and pass this advice on whenever I can, even though I know that most guys who had the same issue as me won't heed it. Shockingly, I explained this to my greasy 12 year old nephew when he was complaining about women.. at the time he basically told me to piss off, but a few months later he had a girlfriend, haha.
I'm not sure how you're defining "sexual attraction" here. If women want to sleep with you, you're sexually attractive. Women line up by the thousands to sleep with famous musical artists, and it ain't because they're chiseled Adonises.
(incidentally - is 'creamytaco' a veiled sexual reference?)
(incidentally - is 'creamytaco' a veiled sexual reference?)
[deleted]
For me, the most frustrating is the failure mode. With people, not being popular doesn’t mean you won’t meet or date, it means you will have a constant negative experience. You may date a nice girl (boy in my case) but the relationship will be taxing, as in you’ll have to work more for the relationship than the other person.
It is entirely justified and reasonable, but if you didn’t notice the gap, you will end up believing people have a bad character.
It is entirely justified and reasonable, but if you didn’t notice the gap, you will end up believing people have a bad character.
And unfortunately this can impact their career opportunities as well.
the only way it's going to have a really substantial effect in the USA is if you have bad hygiene
Personally, I think that whiteboarding/in-person interviews are mostly BS and "culture fit" (AKA: You like the person) has an oversized impact. But since you're not trying to woo the hiring manager into bed with you, you just have to make sure you aren't obnoxiously gross. Even if you're the ugliest dude on the planet, all that means is you need to take a shower and wear clean clothes.
Personally, I think that whiteboarding/in-person interviews are mostly BS and "culture fit" (AKA: You like the person) has an oversized impact. But since you're not trying to woo the hiring manager into bed with you, you just have to make sure you aren't obnoxiously gross. Even if you're the ugliest dude on the planet, all that means is you need to take a shower and wear clean clothes.
Take that stat with a grain of salt. Obviously 80% of women don’t die single & childless, so clearly they just might value non-looks more highly than men? Also OKCupid is purely static visual - in reality, behaviour (confidence, boldness, social skill, ...) is very important as well, but you can’t judge that from a photo.
Sorry, what do you mean « being a jerk »?
I know I’m sounding naive, but if it’s something you decided to change and were able to, maybe it could be interesting.
I know I’m sounding naive, but if it’s something you decided to change and were able to, maybe it could be interesting.
Whatever it is, it started in the mid 70s. You can see the exact moment obesity rates launched upwards and never looked back.
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/-/media/Images/Health-Information/...
https://www.niddk.nih.gov/-/media/Images/Health-Information/...
"Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds."
That's impossible you would have to eat 8167 extra calories a day to do that, you are doing something else like drinking lots of water or something.
That's impossible you would have to eat 8167 extra calories a day to do that, you are doing something else like drinking lots of water or something.
I see the same, but typically five pounds.
I believe it’s my glycogen storage increasing, along with water weight due to the excess salt.
When I stop, it comes right off again in a couple of days.
I believe it’s my glycogen storage increasing, along with water weight due to the excess salt.
When I stop, it comes right off again in a couple of days.
Also keep in mind that in vast swathes of America, kids are brought up with low value high calorie food. If you are used to junk food, that's chemically engineered to appeal to our caveman instincts it's incredibly tough to switch later in life to a healthy food lifestyle.
This pandemic of shitty food starts with the kids and their tastes being set at a young age.
This pandemic of shitty food starts with the kids and their tastes being set at a young age.
The fact that America can't even do chocolate right tells you everything you need to know about the food. Having been to America several times, I've eaten some amazing restaurant food, but the stuff bought in supermarkets is where I think the problem lies.
Just came back from 3 weeks in France, over holiday season. I stayed with my parents, and my dad is a cook... so I did eat well :)
Still managed to lose 2 pounds. In the 3 days I was back here, I managed to eat a burger and pizza. I guess I could have politely say no. But clearly the processed food here in US is ubiquitous and cheap, so difficult to escape.
No idea if this is the reason of lower testosterone. But I realize that simple food based on fresh products would go a long way.
Still managed to lose 2 pounds. In the 3 days I was back here, I managed to eat a burger and pizza. I guess I could have politely say no. But clearly the processed food here in US is ubiquitous and cheap, so difficult to escape.
No idea if this is the reason of lower testosterone. But I realize that simple food based on fresh products would go a long way.
It's mostly the food. It's not like people in other countries get that much more exercise than we do. (Source: lived in Ecuador for two years).
I watched this youtube video recently about recipes for cutting (weightlifting term for a diet that makes you lose weight) and eating some of the food has helped me lose some weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ieFuh_4Vs
I watched this youtube video recently about recipes for cutting (weightlifting term for a diet that makes you lose weight) and eating some of the food has helped me lose some weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ieFuh_4Vs
Food is definitely a big factor. Here in Brasil it's not like we're super healthy eating, we are much more into real food than America, it was the impression I was left with. Some things just seem arbitrarily made junkier for no reason. My colleague who lived in Italy through masters and doctors and recently came back comments on how in Brazil we eat way more meat than europeans, as an additional point of comparison.
It's tough to eat enough meat to get really fat. Most people who try a carnivore diet end up losing weight. (I am not necessarily recommending that people follow a carnivore diet because it might have other negative effects.)
Here the diet is kind of meat and a lot of carbs at all meals(rice & beans in portuguese actually is a term meaning "the basics"), prefferably with a lot garlic and salt.
> I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth.
World obesity rankings are curiously topped by a bunch of small Pacific island nations and Kuwait, followed by the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r...
World obesity rankings are curiously topped by a bunch of small Pacific island nations and Kuwait, followed by the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r...
> Not exactly easy to stay in shape when this country tries to pump us all full of corn syrup
That's it I think. Advertising has become much more effective over the past 40 years. Humans can simply not resist.
There should be advertising for healthy eating, to steer people to healthy food.
That's it I think. Advertising has become much more effective over the past 40 years. Humans can simply not resist.
There should be advertising for healthy eating, to steer people to healthy food.
There should be advertising for healthy eating, to steer people to healthy food.
The problem now is we have #fatfobia that shames people for advertising their healthy lifestyle.
The problem now is we have #fatfobia that shames people for advertising their healthy lifestyle.
I disagree. Don't blame USA, after all you decide what goes into your mouth. Whole Foods ain't junk and Walmart has a decent plant based area. If you wanna find junk, you get it - everywhere.
Europe is on the rise: https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-di....
No way to, pun not intended, sugar-coat this fact.
Sorry to say that, but "moving to a healthier country" is an excuse. Come on, dude! :)
Europe is on the rise: https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-di....
No way to, pun not intended, sugar-coat this fact.
Sorry to say that, but "moving to a healthier country" is an excuse. Come on, dude! :)
In fat tissue testosterone gets converted into estrogen via aromatase, also. Not sure if the estrogenic effects are systemic, but the T is lost from circulation.
Oh interesting. I find that when you look how people move, ie walk or sit down, you'll often find that men with big bellies move very deliberate, not forceful at all.
> I completely blame the food
I don't completely blame the food itself. It's more about food habits.
One of the things I found very weird was American portion sizes. Go to any restaurant and plates were easily double the amount I was previously used to. I felt bad leaving almost half of a plate every time.
And then... I got used to it. But also very fat. With similar levels of sedentarism so it's not only about exercise levels. And frankly, while exercise is healthy, you don't burn that much energy with cardio. Every time I do the calculations I'm shocked. From a weight loss perspective, you're better off reducing food quantity (and the proportion of highly energy dense food types) than just increasing exercise. Unless you are at marathon-levels, that is. Increasing muscle mass is also time well spent (still pales in comparison to just eating less). Need to do it for the health benefits anyway, but it's easy to see why people get frustrated.
The kind of food served must have an impact too. Most places, if you are even offered a salad, it's awful. It's either tasteless or downright nasty and you can only make it palatable by overdosing on dressings. It seems that the nastiest tasting greens are chosen - don't even get me started on the "spring mix". So many people just don't eat salad and I can't blame them. Kids are right to rebel against their vegetables.
The American-style breakfast is delicious. It's just that most options are caloric bombs.
This is obviously not applicable if you don't eat out with any regularity. But that was the norm pre-pandemic, whether it's a restaurant or a $5 meal at Taco Bell with the nastiest (but tasty to our lizard brain) calories imaginable. Given that many people in the US don't really have the habit (or the employer doesn't give them time) of having lunch, burgers and the like are common.
Fine, let's eat healthy then and stop complaining. Let's start with fruits.
... and they suck. Apples are tasteless. Bananas are terrible. Mangos are a shadow of what they are supposed to be. Some grapes are ok. Berries are good (but not cheap in most places!). And so on. Fruits seem to be selected for appearance, easy of transport and shelf life, nevermind if they taste like used cardboard. Except berries and even then, IFF they are sourced locally.
You can make a decent salad with ingredients found in any supermarket, so there's that. Less convenient - you need to make your own with tastier greens(whatever your preference is!) rather than grabbing a box of spring mix that tastes like grass that was mowed a week ago. Add some lemon, vinegar and a very small amount of salt and it's all you need.
Meat is essentially the same everywhere(barring some food regulations). Can be affordable if one is ok with eating based on what's available, as prices fluctuate like crazy.
You _can_ eat healthy in the US. But you'll be battling: affordability, time, convenience and cultural norms. You need to check the labels on everything too, the corn syrup comment is relevant.
I don't completely blame the food itself. It's more about food habits.
One of the things I found very weird was American portion sizes. Go to any restaurant and plates were easily double the amount I was previously used to. I felt bad leaving almost half of a plate every time.
And then... I got used to it. But also very fat. With similar levels of sedentarism so it's not only about exercise levels. And frankly, while exercise is healthy, you don't burn that much energy with cardio. Every time I do the calculations I'm shocked. From a weight loss perspective, you're better off reducing food quantity (and the proportion of highly energy dense food types) than just increasing exercise. Unless you are at marathon-levels, that is. Increasing muscle mass is also time well spent (still pales in comparison to just eating less). Need to do it for the health benefits anyway, but it's easy to see why people get frustrated.
The kind of food served must have an impact too. Most places, if you are even offered a salad, it's awful. It's either tasteless or downright nasty and you can only make it palatable by overdosing on dressings. It seems that the nastiest tasting greens are chosen - don't even get me started on the "spring mix". So many people just don't eat salad and I can't blame them. Kids are right to rebel against their vegetables.
The American-style breakfast is delicious. It's just that most options are caloric bombs.
This is obviously not applicable if you don't eat out with any regularity. But that was the norm pre-pandemic, whether it's a restaurant or a $5 meal at Taco Bell with the nastiest (but tasty to our lizard brain) calories imaginable. Given that many people in the US don't really have the habit (or the employer doesn't give them time) of having lunch, burgers and the like are common.
Fine, let's eat healthy then and stop complaining. Let's start with fruits.
... and they suck. Apples are tasteless. Bananas are terrible. Mangos are a shadow of what they are supposed to be. Some grapes are ok. Berries are good (but not cheap in most places!). And so on. Fruits seem to be selected for appearance, easy of transport and shelf life, nevermind if they taste like used cardboard. Except berries and even then, IFF they are sourced locally.
You can make a decent salad with ingredients found in any supermarket, so there's that. Less convenient - you need to make your own with tastier greens(whatever your preference is!) rather than grabbing a box of spring mix that tastes like grass that was mowed a week ago. Add some lemon, vinegar and a very small amount of salt and it's all you need.
Meat is essentially the same everywhere(barring some food regulations). Can be affordable if one is ok with eating based on what's available, as prices fluctuate like crazy.
You _can_ eat healthy in the US. But you'll be battling: affordability, time, convenience and cultural norms. You need to check the labels on everything too, the corn syrup comment is relevant.
I blame the food packaging. BPA and all sorts of synthetic hormones leeching from plastic has invaded both our food and drink.
Kids almost always eat and drink from plastic. It used to be glass and metal.
Little kids are really surrounded by lots of fresh new plastic.
Little kids are really surrounded by lots of fresh new plastic.
I wonder how much is due to regulation about inner dosage. I hear that mcdonalds recipees varies a lot between Europe and USA, saying that USA have way more everything in it, whereas in EU limits are imposed.
That or USA citizens really like to eat overly sweet and fat stuff.
That or USA citizens really like to eat overly sweet and fat stuff.
The portions at the USA are insane. When I first saw the "large size" side drinks at fast foods I started laughing. In Europe the large size is equivalent to the US Medium.
This is also the case in restaurants. I get it that many people pack left over to go, but the portions served are comically large. For someone with broken "I am full" sensor, it is easy to consume the whole portion at once, and then get a dessert.
This is also the case in restaurants. I get it that many people pack left over to go, but the portions served are comically large. For someone with broken "I am full" sensor, it is easy to consume the whole portion at once, and then get a dessert.
I find that in most US restaurants the portions are a bit small and I need the desert to fill me up. People always remark about how much I eat though. Most of them completely fail to notice that I eat only at meals, so even though it seems like I'm eating a lot, over the course of a day I'm getting no more than them. However most of my calories are not empty snacks (even counting the desert).
I cook most of my meals at home though, which allows me to get enough without needing desert every meal. Plus my cooking tastes better since it is real flavor not added sugar/salt.
I cook most of my meals at home though, which allows me to get enough without needing desert every meal. Plus my cooking tastes better since it is real flavor not added sugar/salt.
>When I first saw the "large size" side drinks at fast foods I started laughing. In Europe the large size is equivalent to the US Medium.
Depending on where exactly you were, this is the experience of a lot of Americans compared to the sizes from their childhoods. A lot of places missed the point on Super-Size Me and just renamed their sizes to eliminate extra-larges around that time. So a 16oz shifted from being medium to being small.
Depending on where exactly you were, this is the experience of a lot of Americans compared to the sizes from their childhoods. A lot of places missed the point on Super-Size Me and just renamed their sizes to eliminate extra-larges around that time. So a 16oz shifted from being medium to being small.
FWIW, oil prices have a really high (negative) correlation with obesity
There's weirdly enough, quite a bit of scholarly literature on this.
Here's a decent survey, scroll down to see the links
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/g...
There's also studies that show increasing gasoline sales tax is predictive of future obesity prevalence (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415832/). The correlation appears robust enough to generally use petroleum prices as an indicator of obesity prevalence as measured through BMI.
They're all pretty careful to note that "the relationship between gasoline prices and physical activity must be empirically determined".
Maybe, for instance, people purchase less food or go out to eat less frequently in high gas-price places. (See https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.1550-8528....)
Maybe people spend less time commuting in high petroleum prices areas, which increases well being and decreases obesity prevalence (see https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11524-012-9678-6)
Maybe petroleum-based fertilizers lead to high obesity (see https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...).
Maybe the psychological activity of driving affects metabolism (see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009174351...).
Maybe this is all p-hacking and it's nonsense.
Regardless, if scholarship is to be believed, moving to a place with high gas prices might help you lose weight. Yes, it still sounds nutty to me as well.
There's weirdly enough, quite a bit of scholarly literature on this.
Here's a decent survey, scroll down to see the links
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/g...
There's also studies that show increasing gasoline sales tax is predictive of future obesity prevalence (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415832/). The correlation appears robust enough to generally use petroleum prices as an indicator of obesity prevalence as measured through BMI.
They're all pretty careful to note that "the relationship between gasoline prices and physical activity must be empirically determined".
Maybe, for instance, people purchase less food or go out to eat less frequently in high gas-price places. (See https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.1550-8528....)
Maybe people spend less time commuting in high petroleum prices areas, which increases well being and decreases obesity prevalence (see https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11524-012-9678-6)
Maybe petroleum-based fertilizers lead to high obesity (see https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...).
Maybe the psychological activity of driving affects metabolism (see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009174351...).
Maybe this is all p-hacking and it's nonsense.
Regardless, if scholarship is to be believed, moving to a place with high gas prices might help you lose weight. Yes, it still sounds nutty to me as well.
"Anything that is more than our necessity is poison. It may be power, wealth, hunger, ego, greed, laziness, love or ambition..."
Rumi
Rumi
related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lkCsKXAxfo (and other videos of the series)
So you’re blaming the FDA for allowing something into American food that the EU doesn’t?
"You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works."
I don't know my guy. I'm 39, weigh 280lbs at 5'9 but am married to a smart and beautiful women a decade younger than me and 150lbs lighter than me. It's not a sugar daddy thing either, she makes more than I do. Not everyone is shallow and a great sense of humor / shared interests / good personality is more than enough for plenty of people. That said, being fit certainly ups the odds in your favor.
I don't know my guy. I'm 39, weigh 280lbs at 5'9 but am married to a smart and beautiful women a decade younger than me and 150lbs lighter than me. It's not a sugar daddy thing either, she makes more than I do. Not everyone is shallow and a great sense of humor / shared interests / good personality is more than enough for plenty of people. That said, being fit certainly ups the odds in your favor.
A large component is the dating market you’re in.
If you’re a man in DC, NYC, or some rural town you’ll have more luck.
Bay Area? Zero chance.
If you’re a man in DC, NYC, or some rural town you’ll have more luck.
Bay Area? Zero chance.
Perhaps you missed the part where they controlled for "confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity"
So, after correcting for BMI, physical activity, etc, there was still a very significant decline in testosterone between 1999-2000 and 2015-2016.
So, after correcting for BMI, physical activity, etc, there was still a very significant decline in testosterone between 1999-2000 and 2015-2016.
Yeah, but a few paragraphs later, we have this:
"According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins."
My personal, totally unsupported hypothesis: society is simply kinder and gentler now. As evidenced by the high testosterone in prison populations, this hormone responds to environmental threats of potential violence.
"According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins."
My personal, totally unsupported hypothesis: society is simply kinder and gentler now. As evidenced by the high testosterone in prison populations, this hormone responds to environmental threats of potential violence.
> My personal, totally unsupported hypothesis: society is simply kinder and gentler now.
Loved reading that. I don't know if it's true, but I hope so.
Loved reading that. I don't know if it's true, but I hope so.
It's probably not the case that testosterone being lower is a result of society being kinder and gentler, but that society is kinder and gentler as a result of the lower testosterone.
Well, there might be a positive feedback loop factor implied, even if other factors might affect the rise of kinder society and the decrease of testosterone.
That’s funny as the first time I heard about feedback loop was in college biology courses, when we were taught how women hormones interactions are modelizable.
That’s funny as the first time I heard about feedback loop was in college biology courses, when we were taught how women hormones interactions are modelizable.
I didn't read it in the former way personally. Your sentence confused me at first with that assumption for you to disprove.
[deleted]
I see that and I'm glad they included it, but ...
Was 1999-2000 that golden age when we all threshed the fields by hand and steered the plows on foot ?
I remember people being quite sedentary and obese then and I don't know that an activity comparison to 1999-2000 has any utility ...
EDIT: OK, I am thinking about this backwards - if, as I suggest, people were just as sedentary in the first period as they are in the second, then the T drop begs a different explanation. As you suggest, they also corrected for age.
So, perhaps, my instinct is wrong. I would still look very closely at the (adjusted, corrected) physical activity before drawing any other conclusions ...
Was 1999-2000 that golden age when we all threshed the fields by hand and steered the plows on foot ?
I remember people being quite sedentary and obese then and I don't know that an activity comparison to 1999-2000 has any utility ...
EDIT: OK, I am thinking about this backwards - if, as I suggest, people were just as sedentary in the first period as they are in the second, then the T drop begs a different explanation. As you suggest, they also corrected for age.
So, perhaps, my instinct is wrong. I would still look very closely at the (adjusted, corrected) physical activity before drawing any other conclusions ...
1999-2000 is a period in the past when they had measurements.
I mean ideally they'd have huge numbers of testosterone samples from all of human history, but what are they going to do?
I mean ideally they'd have huge numbers of testosterone samples from all of human history, but what are they going to do?
it's a reference point? The article isn't comparing to some platonic ideal of what men's testosterone levels should be...it's just pointing out a statistically significant decrease in those levels over a period of 20 years
There is something double strange about the p values.For the main effect, the broad based decline, p < 0.0001. But for the result for men at "normal" weight, 18.5 < BMI < 24.9, the p value is given as p< 0.05.
The first strangeness is that this hints at a much weaker effect. The second strangeness is reporting the p value rather than the effect size. I clicked the link to a pdf at the bottom of the article, but it is not the paper. shrug
The first strangeness is that this hints at a much weaker effect. The second strangeness is reporting the p value rather than the effect size. I clicked the link to a pdf at the bottom of the article, but it is not the paper. shrug
Something that is fairly well known in weightlifting circles is that "lifting heavy" will boost testosterone levels for about a day.
This is something I can anecdotally confirm: A few years ago my libido was low and I had borderline depression. After my lifts exceeded 100 kg (220 lb), there was a noticeable positive correlation between my libido and the deadlift days.
This is something I can anecdotally confirm: A few years ago my libido was low and I had borderline depression. After my lifts exceeded 100 kg (220 lb), there was a noticeable positive correlation between my libido and the deadlift days.
Yep. Lifting heavy is also good because it doesn't take very long and it's far easier to go high intensity for a few reps than medium intensity for many reps. Just gotta be careful to have proper form and not injure ourselves.
I mean, every problem in my life can be fairly neatly explained my a lack of physical activity. Most AWESOME days I have can be neatly explained by higher than usual activity.
Our bodies need to move. Isn’t there strong evidence that we can’t even function properly without exercise? I mean, basic functions like regular waste disposal/cell regeneration. Circulation is insufficient without some added pressure and agitation. All kinds of stuff.
We are too fat and lazy, period.
It’s an “easy” fix, but it’s also really, really, really hard. Man. I used to run 50km per week, now I don’t even walk 5km. So much kid stuff, work stuff, house stuff.
Our bodies need to move. Isn’t there strong evidence that we can’t even function properly without exercise? I mean, basic functions like regular waste disposal/cell regeneration. Circulation is insufficient without some added pressure and agitation. All kinds of stuff.
We are too fat and lazy, period.
It’s an “easy” fix, but it’s also really, really, really hard. Man. I used to run 50km per week, now I don’t even walk 5km. So much kid stuff, work stuff, house stuff.
Stress is also linked to reduced testosterone.
Sexual behaviors can radically change testosterone as well.
Sexual behaviors can radically change testosterone as well.
That’s a reminder that the world has become more and more stressed out. I was reading somewhere that women handle stress better possibly because of estrogen.
That may be part of the explanation, but read this:
> Lokeshwar noted that even men with a normal BMI (18.5-24.9) had declining total testosterone levels (P < .05) during the same time frames.
> Lokeshwar noted that even men with a normal BMI (18.5-24.9) had declining total testosterone levels (P < .05) during the same time frames.
Literally the first line from the article: “The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index.”
Personal experience agrees. I'm over 50. Started lifting weights regularly about a year ago. Lost about 15-20 lbs of fat. Consuming way less beer and junk food. Have not had levels tested, but noticing more signs of increased testosterone, increased libido, waking up with an erection, etc.
"The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index."
The first line in the article is: "The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index." So obesity may be a factor, but it does not seem to be the only factor.
This is not so simple. Low testosterone cannot always be fixed by exercise.
There are men who exercise and yet have low T.
In the abstract of your [3] we see a problem. Quote:
> If you have a low level of fitness you are likely to have a greater increase in testosterone response to exercise. As your body adjusts to the demands of exercise the testosterone response will decrease.
Basically you have to be unfit to get a T boost from lifting some weights. If you're already fit and adapted to exercise, more exercise won't fix the T problem.
There are men who exercise and yet have low T.
In the abstract of your [3] we see a problem. Quote:
> If you have a low level of fitness you are likely to have a greater increase in testosterone response to exercise. As your body adjusts to the demands of exercise the testosterone response will decrease.
Basically you have to be unfit to get a T boost from lifting some weights. If you're already fit and adapted to exercise, more exercise won't fix the T problem.
I believe this to be the right answer.
Ive been around this discussion a lot and everyone seems to want to blame the whole phenomenon on some chemical or another, "xenoestrogens" are thrown around a lot. Yes, there are more unnatural chemical compounds entering our bodies than in the past (also important to examine) but addressing the terribly unhealthy lives most of us lead is obviously the first step.
Ive been around this discussion a lot and everyone seems to want to blame the whole phenomenon on some chemical or another, "xenoestrogens" are thrown around a lot. Yes, there are more unnatural chemical compounds entering our bodies than in the past (also important to examine) but addressing the terribly unhealthy lives most of us lead is obviously the first step.
The parent comment both says that this is a global phenomenon and links to a study (not on Americans) whose _abstract_ says "There was a highly significant age-independent decline in total testosterone in the first and second decades of the twenty-first century. The decline was unlikely to be explained by increasing rates of obesity".
Study controls for this, though:
> After controlling for confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity—total testosterone was lower among men in the later (2011-2016) versus earlier (1999-2000) cycles (P < 0.001)
> After controlling for confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity—total testosterone was lower among men in the later (2011-2016) versus earlier (1999-2000) cycles (P < 0.001)
When I went to Europe in 2006 I dropped 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I was hardly obese (call it pudge) but those three weeks changed my life completely. Encouraged by the start, I began to exercise and get in shape. That lasted until a severe foot breakage kept me from running for about a year which put most of the weight back on. I noticed that in Europe where I was(Austria, Hungary, Germany) there was very little sugar in restaurant food and most of the time it resembled an elaborate home cooked meal. Here in the states sugar and high carbs for carbs sake are in everything.
They said this accounted for most of the effect.
But if you look at the study the effect persists after controlling for both BMI and exercise. There must be more to it.
But if you look at the study the effect persists after controlling for both BMI and exercise. There must be more to it.
I think there multiple things working together:
- High yield, less nutritious crops - Climate change - less physical activity
https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...
- High yield, less nutritious crops - Climate change - less physical activity
https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...
BPA acts as synthetic estrogen in the human body and therefore has a less significant but similar effect as being on female hormone therapy.
But sugar, or more specifically insulin can reduce testosterone in the blood as well. Sugar will also make you put on weight more easily and body fat will also increase estrogen.
But sugar, or more specifically insulin can reduce testosterone in the blood as well. Sugar will also make you put on weight more easily and body fat will also increase estrogen.
My guess is this, but I would have to say, we need to see the data on women as well if thats the case.
> The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index.
The study in OP controlled for age and weight.
It's really harmful to go around pushing the uninformed assertion that "testosterone == violence". This leads to people lashing out at men in general, then further backlash from there in the form of the "they're-coming-to-get-us" trumpian insanity that is going on right now.
The whole phenomenon of "toxic masculinity" is not about "masculinity makes you toxic" but about the ways we terrorize young males and indoctrinate them with fear & violence at an early age.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-...
The whole phenomenon of "toxic masculinity" is not about "masculinity makes you toxic" but about the ways we terrorize young males and indoctrinate them with fear & violence at an early age.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-...
I don't mean to necessarily imply you are doing this, but I suspect "toxic masculinity" is a motte-and-bailey[0].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
The term has been used utterly consistently across many decades of academic writing. It is absolutely not a motte and bailey. It truly is about how many masculine-coded expectations trap men in harmful behaviors and patterns.
It's a motte and bailey in the way it's socially used. The way it goes is, people will make fun of masculinity in general, and throw around "toxic masculinity" as a meme at any display or mention of masculinity. When challenged, they retreat to the motte of claiming they mean "toxic masculinity" purely in the academic sense.
This is my first encounter with the term, so forgive me if I’m using it wring, but it feels like this convo was literally motte and bailey’d.
Op: don’t link testosterone and violence - the real problem is toxic masculinity not testosterone a thing all men have.
Someone: you’re not doing this, but toxic masculinity is a motte and bailey
Someone else: no it’s a well defined idea
You, moving the goalpost: how the term is used socially it is
If someone is using the term as you suggested, by all means call out their actions. But if they are not - as op did - why bring this up?
Personally I find the idea of toxic masculinity a useful tool to understand and categorize the things society is telling me i should aspire to, many of which are harmful to who I am personally
Op: don’t link testosterone and violence - the real problem is toxic masculinity not testosterone a thing all men have.
Someone: you’re not doing this, but toxic masculinity is a motte and bailey
Someone else: no it’s a well defined idea
You, moving the goalpost: how the term is used socially it is
If someone is using the term as you suggested, by all means call out their actions. But if they are not - as op did - why bring this up?
Personally I find the idea of toxic masculinity a useful tool to understand and categorize the things society is telling me i should aspire to, many of which are harmful to who I am personally
I thought the convo was: OP made an otherwise valid, neutral point, then bundled in a defense of a hotly contested phrase, purporting to tell us what it "really" means. jbboehr responded that this was a motte-and-bailey. UncleMeat was like, no it's not, so I tried clarifying what I thought jbboehr was getting at.
Almost every concept is used badly by some laypeople. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is widely used by cranks to make all sorts of nonsense claims. That isn't the fault of the idea.
Feminist theory is a serious academic discipline that isn't just making shit up to attack men.
Feminist theory is a serious academic discipline that isn't just making shit up to attack men.
I would never claim “just” however I would say for an area that dovetails well with studies in micro-aggressions, context, bias, and the importance and nuance of words they are shockingly bad at naming things. Maybe you’re right maybe they dont dislike men but they tend to name shared social ills after men an awful lot...
It's such a confusing misnomer that the majority of both proponents and opponents of it wildly misuse it all the time.
Just call it something like "toxic gender roles" or "toxic gender expectations" and you short circuit the entire debate.
Just call it something like "toxic gender roles" or "toxic gender expectations" and you short circuit the entire debate.
I don't believe that it would actually short circuit the debate, since there is a contingent of people who insist on maximally misunderstanding work in this space.
But regardless, the name does derive from some historical reasoning. For many decades feminist theory used to consider the feminine to be aberrant and the masculine to be the cultural norm and a pure good, only investigating the ways in which femininity trapped and harmed people. "Toxic masculinity" was a re-evaluation of these assumptions, identifying ways that masculinity, like femininity could trap and harm people. The term was positioned against the assumptions of the time and "toxic masculinity" expresses this position much better than "toxic gender roles" since it was explicitly about changing how feminism thought about masculinity.
That is no longer especially significant to the term, but inertia exists.
But regardless, the name does derive from some historical reasoning. For many decades feminist theory used to consider the feminine to be aberrant and the masculine to be the cultural norm and a pure good, only investigating the ways in which femininity trapped and harmed people. "Toxic masculinity" was a re-evaluation of these assumptions, identifying ways that masculinity, like femininity could trap and harm people. The term was positioned against the assumptions of the time and "toxic masculinity" expresses this position much better than "toxic gender roles" since it was explicitly about changing how feminism thought about masculinity.
That is no longer especially significant to the term, but inertia exists.
And as we know, people never misuse academic words outside academia.
>It truly is about how many masculine-coded expectations trap men in harmful behaviors and patterns.
That's the motte. The bailey is using the term to sell expected patterns and behaviors that are not necessarily any less harmful, just more desirable to the person doing the talking.
>It truly is about how many masculine-coded expectations trap men in harmful behaviors and patterns.
That's the motte. The bailey is using the term to sell expected patterns and behaviors that are not necessarily any less harmful, just more desirable to the person doing the talking.
[deleted]
Testosterone is linked to violence, in that stronger people tend to have higher testosterone levels and people with higher testosterone levels tend to be more aggressive. I think the whole idea of toxic masculinity is bullshit, but we shouldn't ignore obvious correlations just because they upset our ideas about how things should be.
Testosterone is also linked to a greater sense of fair play, both as the recipient and the benefactor.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/testosterones-eff...
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12191-hormones-affect...
The concept of testosterone=aggression is damagingly simplistic, and should not be held up as a good model.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/testosterones-eff...
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12191-hormones-affect...
The concept of testosterone=aggression is damagingly simplistic, and should not be held up as a good model.
Yes, I'm not in disagreement with this. I also don't think aggression is a negative trait.
>>Tesosterone is also linked to a greater sense of fair play, both as the recipient and the benefact
I speculate that is likely why libertarianism is the most male-dominated political ideology, and its adherents have the highest income levels.
Testosterone could also explain why libertarians are the most-rational/least-emotional of the political typologies:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22927928/
I speculate that is likely why libertarianism is the most male-dominated political ideology, and its adherents have the highest income levels.
Testosterone could also explain why libertarians are the most-rational/least-emotional of the political typologies:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22927928/
Ah no. Libertarianism is dominated by men precisely because it primarily attracts those with high incomes, and men have higher incomes in general.
It also attracts people with an egotistical streak and those with low empathy, plus those with a high confidence in their own rationality.
They did not become all of those things by being libertarian, they became libertarians because that ideology attracts people who are comfortable in life and focus more on individual personal gain than on an empathetic society that benefits everyone more equally.
It also attracts people with an egotistical streak and those with low empathy, plus those with a high confidence in their own rationality.
They did not become all of those things by being libertarian, they became libertarians because that ideology attracts people who are comfortable in life and focus more on individual personal gain than on an empathetic society that benefits everyone more equally.
I know it's entirely anecdotal, but I was a hardcore libertarian long before I had any income. There are literally Youtube videos of me from way back in a run down apartment, espousing libertarianism.
>>It also attracts people with an egotistical streak and those with low empathy
High ego and low empathy is also correlated with testosterone.
The silver lining is the sense of fair play mentioned by the parent comment, as well as imperviousness to superficial peripheral traits that appeal to emotion.
I remember reading that libertarianism appeals to the stereotypically male mind, but I don't know if the studies that conclusion was based on controlled for income.
>>It also attracts people with an egotistical streak and those with low empathy
High ego and low empathy is also correlated with testosterone.
The silver lining is the sense of fair play mentioned by the parent comment, as well as imperviousness to superficial peripheral traits that appeal to emotion.
I remember reading that libertarianism appeals to the stereotypically male mind, but I don't know if the studies that conclusion was based on controlled for income.
That "sense of fair play" only applies when "fair" is defined as something that adheres to the libertarian's personal definition of what is rational.
Die hard libertarians in my circle of acquaintances have argued against stores hiding away tobacco products to discourage smoking as irrational, because they see making as much profit as possible as the only rational objective.
When you can define anything you personally believe in to be rational, all your opponents automatically become irrational because they disagree with your enlightened position. Since they are irrational, their arguments can be dismissed out of hand.
It is an extremely arrogant worldview. Believing that it makes you impervious to emotional arguments just makes it even more arrogant.
Die hard libertarians in my circle of acquaintances have argued against stores hiding away tobacco products to discourage smoking as irrational, because they see making as much profit as possible as the only rational objective.
When you can define anything you personally believe in to be rational, all your opponents automatically become irrational because they disagree with your enlightened position. Since they are irrational, their arguments can be dismissed out of hand.
It is an extremely arrogant worldview. Believing that it makes you impervious to emotional arguments just makes it even more arrogant.
The commitment to fair play was found to be correlated with testosterone. It's only my speculation that this is what draws men to libertarianism.
>"fair" is defined as something that adheres to the libertarian's personal definition of what is rational.
Do you have any kind of scientific evidence supporting this hypothesis, or is it just speculation based on intuition and observations of personal acquaintances?
>>When you can define anything you personally believe in to be rational, all your opponents automatically become irrational because they disagree with your enlightened position.
It's tautological that a person will view beliefs that they personally view as rational/right, as rational/right. This is irrespective of their political ideology.
As for arrogance, I think "live and let live" is the least arrogant political philosophy one can hold, and that's the defining ethos of libertarianism. I think that lack of pretence/arrogance in this ethos is what draws people to libertarianism.
Any non-libertarian political persuasion will advocate for all manner of government measures that use force against peaceful people to force compliance with a larger social plan.
I personally don't see how the person opposing this sort of mandate is arrogant, while the person advocating for it is not. But I guess these issues are subjective.
>>Believing that it makes you impervious to emotional arguments just makes it even more arrogant.
From what I recall, the study found that libertarians are less likely to pay attention and give weight to peripheral cues that appeal to emotion, and be more focused on substance.
>"fair" is defined as something that adheres to the libertarian's personal definition of what is rational.
Do you have any kind of scientific evidence supporting this hypothesis, or is it just speculation based on intuition and observations of personal acquaintances?
>>When you can define anything you personally believe in to be rational, all your opponents automatically become irrational because they disagree with your enlightened position.
It's tautological that a person will view beliefs that they personally view as rational/right, as rational/right. This is irrespective of their political ideology.
As for arrogance, I think "live and let live" is the least arrogant political philosophy one can hold, and that's the defining ethos of libertarianism. I think that lack of pretence/arrogance in this ethos is what draws people to libertarianism.
Any non-libertarian political persuasion will advocate for all manner of government measures that use force against peaceful people to force compliance with a larger social plan.
I personally don't see how the person opposing this sort of mandate is arrogant, while the person advocating for it is not. But I guess these issues are subjective.
>>Believing that it makes you impervious to emotional arguments just makes it even more arrogant.
From what I recall, the study found that libertarians are less likely to pay attention and give weight to peripheral cues that appeal to emotion, and be more focused on substance.
> "As for arrogance, I think "live and let live" is the least arrogant political philosophy one can hold, and that's the defining ethos of libertarianism. I think that lack of pretence/arrogance in this ethos is what draws people to libertarianism.
Any non-libertarian political persuasion will advocate for all manner of government measures that use force against peaceful people to force compliance with a larger social plan."
If you were talking about the original socialist libertarianism, then you would have had a point.
Unfortunately libertarianism today is more of a "live and let die"-type ideology, where those who cannot support themselves must fail, as they provide "no value". It is social darwinism writ large.
Regulations exist for a reason and the effects of gutting for instance the EPA has massive consequences, irreparable damage to the environment and to people's health. Or do you think the people in Flint, Michigan should just move somewhere else?
We absolutely cannot trust powerful people and corporations to do the right thing, since they do not feel the consequences themselves and thus actively do not care, because that would eat into their profits.
Voluntarism doesn't work, for that exact reason. Hence why regulations and laws are needed.
Any non-libertarian political persuasion will advocate for all manner of government measures that use force against peaceful people to force compliance with a larger social plan."
If you were talking about the original socialist libertarianism, then you would have had a point.
Unfortunately libertarianism today is more of a "live and let die"-type ideology, where those who cannot support themselves must fail, as they provide "no value". It is social darwinism writ large.
Regulations exist for a reason and the effects of gutting for instance the EPA has massive consequences, irreparable damage to the environment and to people's health. Or do you think the people in Flint, Michigan should just move somewhere else?
We absolutely cannot trust powerful people and corporations to do the right thing, since they do not feel the consequences themselves and thus actively do not care, because that would eat into their profits.
Voluntarism doesn't work, for that exact reason. Hence why regulations and laws are needed.
>>Unfortunately libertarianism today is more of a "live and let die"-type ideology, where those who cannot support themselves must fail, as they provide "no value". It is social darwinism writ large.
Altruism is completely orthogonal to libertarianism. The only consistent property of libertarian policies is that they protect and preserve the right to voluntary interaction.
How people choose to voluntarily associate is in no way a concern of what's defined as libertarianism.
In other words, one can believe and promote a society based on compassion, sharing and collectivism, or a society based on self-sufficiency and only profit-motivated interaction, and be equally libertarian.
>>the effects of gutting for instance the EPA has massive consequences, irreparable damage to the environment and to people's health. Or do you think the people in Flint, Michigan should just move somewhere else?
There are a multitude of types of regulations, and not all of them violate the non-aggression moral principle that libertarianism holds as inviolable. Environmental regulations generally do not violate the right to free association, and can indeed protect rights, so are generally consistent with libertarianism.
Moreover, regulations have a multitude of effects, and not all of them positive. To quantify their net effect on human welfare requires far more evidence than the single data point you've provided. It requires a comprehensive and methodological accounting of their entire impact.
>>Voluntarism doesn't work, for that exact reason. Hence why regulations and laws are needed.
Voluntarism does not imply a lack of laws. Voluntaryism can only be enforced with laws and a state to back it. There is a distinction between laws that protect people's right to their life, liberty and property, and laws that violate it.
Altruism is completely orthogonal to libertarianism. The only consistent property of libertarian policies is that they protect and preserve the right to voluntary interaction.
How people choose to voluntarily associate is in no way a concern of what's defined as libertarianism.
In other words, one can believe and promote a society based on compassion, sharing and collectivism, or a society based on self-sufficiency and only profit-motivated interaction, and be equally libertarian.
>>the effects of gutting for instance the EPA has massive consequences, irreparable damage to the environment and to people's health. Or do you think the people in Flint, Michigan should just move somewhere else?
There are a multitude of types of regulations, and not all of them violate the non-aggression moral principle that libertarianism holds as inviolable. Environmental regulations generally do not violate the right to free association, and can indeed protect rights, so are generally consistent with libertarianism.
Moreover, regulations have a multitude of effects, and not all of them positive. To quantify their net effect on human welfare requires far more evidence than the single data point you've provided. It requires a comprehensive and methodological accounting of their entire impact.
>>Voluntarism doesn't work, for that exact reason. Hence why regulations and laws are needed.
Voluntarism does not imply a lack of laws. Voluntaryism can only be enforced with laws and a state to back it. There is a distinction between laws that protect people's right to their life, liberty and property, and laws that violate it.
Define the NAP, please. Put it in no uncertain terms.
It always boils down to "doing something I agree with", defining any perceived violation of ultimate personal freedom as aggression, leading to any retaliation to be "justified" as self defense, which is utterly morally bereft.
The pure and simple truth is that a society based solely on voluntary interaction is no society at all. Along with the benefits of being part of a society, there will always be obligations. You can act as if that doesn't apply to you, but someone always has to pick up the bill or do the work and you can't count on there always being a volunteer.
Libertarianism is a pie-in-the-sky utopian thought experiment ideology.
It always boils down to "doing something I agree with", defining any perceived violation of ultimate personal freedom as aggression, leading to any retaliation to be "justified" as self defense, which is utterly morally bereft.
The pure and simple truth is that a society based solely on voluntary interaction is no society at all. Along with the benefits of being part of a society, there will always be obligations. You can act as if that doesn't apply to you, but someone always has to pick up the bill or do the work and you can't count on there always being a volunteer.
Libertarianism is a pie-in-the-sky utopian thought experiment ideology.
That's such a huge dismissal of a very rationally and logically justifiable moral position.
That "moral position" never explains what happens to those that don't congregate well, are not high performers, etc.
It does explain it. It just argues, correctly in my opinion, that it would be unfair to force an unrelated person to help that person in need.
Libertarianism posits that all interactions between people should be voluntary, and that the misfortune of one does not justify coercive measures against another.
Libertarianism posits that all interactions between people should be voluntary, and that the misfortune of one does not justify coercive measures against another.
Thus it is only an attractive ideology for those without a conscience or empathy.
Not emotional does not guarantee rational.
Rational does not guarantee correct, if you don't consider all the variables.
Anecdotally, I find Libertarians are just as susceptible as people of all political parties of being selective with arguments that support their points of view, and ignoring others.
What is unique to Libertarians I know is an arrogance about the objective correctness (because of their lack of emotion and rationality) of their philosophy.
Rational does not guarantee correct, if you don't consider all the variables.
Anecdotally, I find Libertarians are just as susceptible as people of all political parties of being selective with arguments that support their points of view, and ignoring others.
What is unique to Libertarians I know is an arrogance about the objective correctness (because of their lack of emotion and rationality) of their philosophy.
Libertarians are only slightly more rational than liberals. Both are significantly more rational and less emotional than conservatives.
>>Rational does not guarantee correct, if you don't consider all the variables.
Of course, but a rational mindset is more likely to base its beliefs on evidence and logically sound suppositions, and thus be correct, than an emotional one.
>>What is unique to Libertarians I know is an arrogance about the objective correctness (because of their lack of emotion and rationality) of their philosophy.
I think the willingness of adherents of non-libertarian ideologies to use the force of the state to force peaceful people to bend to their will reveals a greater arrogance. I find "live and let live" to show the greatest humility, but I suppose this is all subjective.
>>Rational does not guarantee correct, if you don't consider all the variables.
Of course, but a rational mindset is more likely to base its beliefs on evidence and logically sound suppositions, and thus be correct, than an emotional one.
>>What is unique to Libertarians I know is an arrogance about the objective correctness (because of their lack of emotion and rationality) of their philosophy.
I think the willingness of adherents of non-libertarian ideologies to use the force of the state to force peaceful people to bend to their will reveals a greater arrogance. I find "live and let live" to show the greatest humility, but I suppose this is all subjective.
> Libertarians are only slightly more rational than liberals. Both are significantly more rational and less emotional than conservatives.
What is your basis for that claim? Go on r/conservative and you’ll see plenty claiming the opposite.
What is your basis for that claim? Go on r/conservative and you’ll see plenty claiming the opposite.
According to this study, Figure 4:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22927928/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22927928/
What’s the basis for saying that’s “significant”?
(Genuine question — I’m not familiar with the metric and the differences seem small)
(Genuine question — I’m not familiar with the metric and the differences seem small)
That's how the study described it IIRC.
I want to first mention that both violence and aggression is defined in term of culture and as such is a difficult subject for researcher to define in studies.
The link between aggression and testosterone in modern studies is a complicated one. The theory that testosterone levels can be used as a predictor for violence has been extensively debunked. However violence is a predictor for high testosterone, a finding mostly done on apes. The prevailing theory, as far as I seen in modern research, is the challenge hypothesis. If two males fight, the winner of the two will have raised testosterone afterward. The winner will also be more likely to be more vigorous defending themselves if their new won status is challenged.
On a more subtle human experience, place people in a economic game and inject some with testosterone. What ever behavior that the game has in order to defend status will be increased in those injected. If status is preserved by giving money, those injected with testosterone become more generous.
A similar study has been done on sport fans. When a team wins a match, male fans of that team will have their testosterone raised afterward. If there is a confrontation between fans of the two different teams, it is more likely that the winning side will react more aggressively.
Talking about toxic behavior, there is also a similar finding for women. It is however a bit more complicated and involve multiple hormones. The aggression is also more complicated, harder to define, and is more context sensitive.
The link between aggression and testosterone in modern studies is a complicated one. The theory that testosterone levels can be used as a predictor for violence has been extensively debunked. However violence is a predictor for high testosterone, a finding mostly done on apes. The prevailing theory, as far as I seen in modern research, is the challenge hypothesis. If two males fight, the winner of the two will have raised testosterone afterward. The winner will also be more likely to be more vigorous defending themselves if their new won status is challenged.
On a more subtle human experience, place people in a economic game and inject some with testosterone. What ever behavior that the game has in order to defend status will be increased in those injected. If status is preserved by giving money, those injected with testosterone become more generous.
A similar study has been done on sport fans. When a team wins a match, male fans of that team will have their testosterone raised afterward. If there is a confrontation between fans of the two different teams, it is more likely that the winning side will react more aggressively.
Talking about toxic behavior, there is also a similar finding for women. It is however a bit more complicated and involve multiple hormones. The aggression is also more complicated, harder to define, and is more context sensitive.
[citation needed]
There is plenty of scientific research on the topic. "Testosterone == violence" is plain wrong. In some papers, partial correlation was indicated.
The belief that testosterone is some sort of "manly warrior hormone" is an example of cultural bias that has been researched as well (see google scholar) and fits very well the description of "toxic masculinity".
There is plenty of scientific research on the topic. "Testosterone == violence" is plain wrong. In some papers, partial correlation was indicated.
The belief that testosterone is some sort of "manly warrior hormone" is an example of cultural bias that has been researched as well (see google scholar) and fits very well the description of "toxic masculinity".
It looks like it's more complex than just testosterone, but there is a link between testosterone and risk-aversion: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X1...
There's a biological basis for men being less risk-averse than women. If you think about cavemen days, as a woman, if you are pregnant, or could be pregnant, going hunting, making physical threats, or taking unnecessary risks will reduce your chances of reproductive success. It's better to be safe and conservative, because the life of your children could be at stake.
As a male, in primitive times, it was the opposite. Obviously it wouldn't be to your advantage to just pick fights with everyone, but there is much more of a competitive dynamic. The men who go out, hunt, and bring the food, will have more success within their tribes. In order to succeed as a caveman, you had to leave the camp in a hunting party and risk getting killed.
AFAIK, based on studies on mitochondrial DNA, we have 2-3x female ancestors as males. Meaning most males died childless. This is obviously not a model for how we want modern society to be, but I think it's healthy to understand where we come form, and why males may have more of a tendency for violence, or to get themselves killed in motorcycle accidents. It's not just because of socialization. There is a biological basis.
There's a biological basis for men being less risk-averse than women. If you think about cavemen days, as a woman, if you are pregnant, or could be pregnant, going hunting, making physical threats, or taking unnecessary risks will reduce your chances of reproductive success. It's better to be safe and conservative, because the life of your children could be at stake.
As a male, in primitive times, it was the opposite. Obviously it wouldn't be to your advantage to just pick fights with everyone, but there is much more of a competitive dynamic. The men who go out, hunt, and bring the food, will have more success within their tribes. In order to succeed as a caveman, you had to leave the camp in a hunting party and risk getting killed.
AFAIK, based on studies on mitochondrial DNA, we have 2-3x female ancestors as males. Meaning most males died childless. This is obviously not a model for how we want modern society to be, but I think it's healthy to understand where we come form, and why males may have more of a tendency for violence, or to get themselves killed in motorcycle accidents. It's not just because of socialization. There is a biological basis.
Quoting a single study? And with only 12 citations...
You didn't refute what I said at all. Testosterone levels are linked to violent behavior. This is very clear in the literature. Does it mean everyone with high testosterone levels is violent? Obviously not. And violence is not always a bad trait either. I don't believe in toxic masculinity. Masculine and feminine traits have their place and are obviously adaptive in different situations.
> You didn't refute what I said at all.
And I don't intend to. The topic is big enough for a degree and specialization in endocrinology.
I recommend to read the books from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sapolsky or at the very least watch all his lectures on youtube.
> I don't believe in toxic masculinity. Masculine and feminine traits have
You are confusing "toxic masculinity" with "masculinity is toxic"
"toxic work culture" does not mean "work is toxic"
And I don't intend to. The topic is big enough for a degree and specialization in endocrinology.
I recommend to read the books from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sapolsky or at the very least watch all his lectures on youtube.
> I don't believe in toxic masculinity. Masculine and feminine traits have
You are confusing "toxic masculinity" with "masculinity is toxic"
"toxic work culture" does not mean "work is toxic"
I'm not confusing the two. I don't think "toxic masculinity" is a meaningful concept.
Testosterone arouses brain areas for aggression and muscle development (in humans and other animals). Masculinity is a different topic.
It doesn't "===" violence but if you're intentionally using "==" for type coercion, it could be true.
It doesn't "===" violence but if you're intentionally using "==" for type coercion, it could be true.
Interestingly, js usage steadily increased over the same time period.
Ladies and gentleman, we got him.
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> I wonder if this is actually a manifestation of population-wide testosterone drop.
Is it possible for the cause-and-effect to be backwards? A change in socially acceptable behavior causing the testosterone drop?
Is it possible for the cause-and-effect to be backwards? A change in socially acceptable behavior causing the testosterone drop?
This is an interesting hypothesis. The silver fox domestication experiment shows that selecting for behavioral traits can result in significant changes to physical traits as well: https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.118...
Cultural psychology could have been changing too. Rates of corporeal punishment going down resulting in less violent behavior. Data in this study shows a 30 percentage point drop in rates of spanking, and every study done on spanking has shown it is at best neutral but commonly creates negative outcomes
http://unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/CV358%20-%20Published%202019.pdf
http://unh.edu/ccrc/pdf/CV358%20-%20Published%202019.pdf
I much prefer incorporeal punishment. When the ghost tries to whack you, you just act like it hurts and you're good
Key word there being “selecting”, which makes this a pretty implausible explanation for something we can observe over a couple decades.
Unless production is controlled by the environment rather than strictly genetic factors.
This wouldn't be a genetic argument then.
This wouldn't be a genetic argument then.
So then totally irrelevant to the silver fox experiment.
Hormone production is something that the body controls. It doesn't require multiple generations or genetic selection.
I don't get what you're saying, every phenotype is something "that the body controls."
The point is that it's not a genetically determined effect.
Testosterone in your body fluctuates throughout the course of a single day, based on what happens to you in that day.
So at a societal level, we'd expect some general zeitgeist based average to fall out of other factors, potentially.
Testosterone in your body fluctuates throughout the course of a single day, based on what happens to you in that day.
So at a societal level, we'd expect some general zeitgeist based average to fall out of other factors, potentially.
This only makes sense if your underlying assumption is that the less violent are reproducing more offspring now. Your reference study merely shows that the phenotypical traits have a strong correlation with the behavior traits (in at least foxes). This selection requires offspring but its seems the parent is referencing a hormonal change due to social behavior.
I agree with the premise, that social and environmental norms can influence hormones, but the fox study is a different phenomenon altogether.
I agree with the premise, that social and environmental norms can influence hormones, but the fox study is a different phenomenon altogether.
>This only makes sense if your underlying assumption is that the less violent are reproducing more offspring now.
I wouldn't rule it out. After a generation of anti-bullying and zero tolerance schools have gotten pretty good at making sure anyone with even the slightest violent tendencies is primed to be caught up in "the system" by the time they're done and we've thrown the "fuck the government I smoke what I want" crowd in prison.
I wouldn't rule it out. After a generation of anti-bullying and zero tolerance schools have gotten pretty good at making sure anyone with even the slightest violent tendencies is primed to be caught up in "the system" by the time they're done and we've thrown the "fuck the government I smoke what I want" crowd in prison.
Agreed. I wouldn't rule it out for mid to long term trends.
Estrogen emulating particles [1] are a candidate considering the short time intervals from article.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222987/
Estrogen emulating particles [1] are a candidate considering the short time intervals from article.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222987/
That was my first thought. Inspired by hazy memories of some 20 year old episode of This American Life talking about (IIRC, which I probably don't) men's blood testosterone levels rising when they engage in aggressive behavior or take part in competitive activities.
The most likely episode is #220, "Testosterone": https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220
I was curious if this related to myself sitting on a couch playing multiplayer games. Apparently it even relates to chess, so the activity doesn't need to be physical. I wonder if being "in person" makes a big difference though.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2786687?seq=1
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2786687?seq=1
I don't think drunken bar fights was ever socially acceptable anywhere but the lowest of social strata. I'd blame lifestyle changes and BPA far before I thought exercising normal "gentlemanly" restraint caused T to dip. Also, your theory doesn't explain the anomaly of all the large muscular men who you can tell by physical appearance have high T and who are very kind and not aggressive. Bar fights have a lot more to do with environmental factors that influence behavior, like how they were raised, the same socioeconomic factors that contribute to violent crime, etc.
> doesn't explain the anomaly of all the large muscular men who you can tell by physical appearance have high T and who are very kind and not aggressive.
I don't know the numbers, but that would mean that high T does not cause aggression, not that aggression does not cause high T.
I don't know the numbers, but that would mean that high T does not cause aggression, not that aggression does not cause high T.
Bodybuilders think high estrogen levels cause roid rage. Might be lies they tell themselves, might be a valid observation.
On the other hand normal levels testosterone supposedly saturate receptors. Big exception is muscles.
On the other hand normal levels testosterone supposedly saturate receptors. Big exception is muscles.
> Also, your theory doesn't explain the anomaly of all the large muscular men who you can tell by physical appearance have high T and who are very kind and not aggressive.
I don't think higher levels of testosterone have been reliably linked to aggressive behaviour except in case of anabolic steroid abuse. Those kind people might well have high levels of testosterone.
I don't think higher levels of testosterone have been reliably linked to aggressive behaviour except in case of anabolic steroid abuse. Those kind people might well have high levels of testosterone.
> I don't think drunken bar fights was ever socially acceptable anywhere but the lowest of social strata.
Not how it fits in the discussion, but I'd put duelling in the same category, and this was clearly acceptable among elites when it was acceptable overall
Not how it fits in the discussion, but I'd put duelling in the same category, and this was clearly acceptable among elites when it was acceptable overall
Is it really similar? Duels would be scheduled in advanced. There would be rules to be followed. I don't think I ever read about a duel involving fisticuffs. I suppose you could be saying that a duel is the posh version of a drunken bar fight, but that's like saying that a moderated debate is the posh version of a profanity filled screaming match in a bar parking lot.
Even when dueling was considered acceptable upper-class behavior, most men never fought a duel. It was a drastic, last-resort kind of affair. And even when duels did occur, the duelists sometimes just went through the motions for honor's sake rather than shooting to kill.
Its also very likely that this all matches up with the creation and then banning of leaded fuels in cars.
> Is it possible for the cause-and-effect to be backwards? A change in socially acceptable behavior causing the testosterone drop?
How exactly do you propose that a change in socially acceptable behavior in the span of about 40 years had a tangible effect on hormone levels? It's not like someone can say "oh getting into fistfights isn't cool anymore, better reduce my testosterone levels". Maybe if we were talking about a timespan an order of magnitude or two longer then sexual selection (high testosterone and more violent men being less favored as mates) could come into play, but again for a time span of 40-50 years that's just not feasible. Also, socially acceptable or not, violent and aggressive men typically don't have problems finding sexual partners; Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer and rapist, was known to receive many love-letters in prison, even after the details of his crimes (exclusively against women and girls) were made public and he was able to marry and conceive a child while incarcerated.
How exactly do you propose that a change in socially acceptable behavior in the span of about 40 years had a tangible effect on hormone levels? It's not like someone can say "oh getting into fistfights isn't cool anymore, better reduce my testosterone levels". Maybe if we were talking about a timespan an order of magnitude or two longer then sexual selection (high testosterone and more violent men being less favored as mates) could come into play, but again for a time span of 40-50 years that's just not feasible. Also, socially acceptable or not, violent and aggressive men typically don't have problems finding sexual partners; Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer and rapist, was known to receive many love-letters in prison, even after the details of his crimes (exclusively against women and girls) were made public and he was able to marry and conceive a child while incarcerated.
It sounds like you're assuming evolutionary pressure as a mechanism of change, is that correct?
Have you considered that the body may produce different hormone levels as a result of our mental state?
For example, when startled, the body produces a hormone called adrenaline. We know with certainty that mental state is responsible for certain types of hormone production.
I honestly do not know if there might be a link between testosterone production specifically and mental state, but I took this to be the question that the above poster was asking.
Have you considered that the body may produce different hormone levels as a result of our mental state?
For example, when startled, the body produces a hormone called adrenaline. We know with certainty that mental state is responsible for certain types of hormone production.
I honestly do not know if there might be a link between testosterone production specifically and mental state, but I took this to be the question that the above poster was asking.
I believe there was a study that found that sports fans' testosterone levels were lower after their preferred team lost.
Apparently exercise can increase testosterone, which implies fistfights (especially frequent ones) would too; however, this article also says obesity can reduce testosterone, and I suspect that is a bigger factor:
https://www.webmd.com/men/features/exercise-and-testosterone
https://www.webmd.com/men/features/exercise-and-testosterone
Lower testosterone probably causes fat gain too. It wouldn’t surprise me if we eventually find out that something environmental is causing both of those phenomena.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25982085/
Lower testosterone causes fat gain and fat gain causes lower testosterone.
https://simondsmetabolics.com/2020/09/10/how-obesity-affects...
> Scientists have established that excess fat increases enzymes known as aromatases. These molecules convert testosterone into estrogen. While estrogen is present in males in very small amounts, increased amounts can alter normal function. Having too much estrogen tricks the body into thinking that you do not need more testosterone. The danger lies in the vicious cycle that develops once the high estrogen levels kick in.
Cheap, high calorie food and obesity...
Lower testosterone causes fat gain and fat gain causes lower testosterone.
https://simondsmetabolics.com/2020/09/10/how-obesity-affects...
> Scientists have established that excess fat increases enzymes known as aromatases. These molecules convert testosterone into estrogen. While estrogen is present in males in very small amounts, increased amounts can alter normal function. Having too much estrogen tricks the body into thinking that you do not need more testosterone. The danger lies in the vicious cycle that develops once the high estrogen levels kick in.
Cheap, high calorie food and obesity...
> It's not like someone can say "oh getting into fistfights isn't cool anymore, better reduce my testosterone levels".
I was actually considering something like that. That if you engage in more aggressive behavior regularly for a long period of time, your testosterone levels might stay higher on average than if you didn't.
I was actually considering something like that. That if you engage in more aggressive behavior regularly for a long period of time, your testosterone levels might stay higher on average than if you didn't.
Tons of factors influence hormone levels. There's nothing strange about thinking widespread social patterns and physical changes in the environment (diet, air pollution, etc) could lead to widespread hormonal changes within a population.
You seem to assume testosterone levels are only a function of genetics, which they are not.
You seem to assume testosterone levels are only a function of genetics, which they are not.
[deleted]
I'm a similar age. Do school fights still happen? Circa 12-15 years old, these were a normal part of being a boy. There was even a spot outside the school where boys waited for other boys they wanted to fight. Several boys would be there on any given day. There were enough fights that everyone knew where everyone stood in the "rankings." Who you could beat and who you couldn't... says a lot considering how fast kids grow at that age.
I didn't go to a very violent school, and fights got rarer as age made them more serious. My parents also treated it as normal. They didn't encourage it, but it wasn't a major outrage. Schools too. A note to parents or somesuch minor penalty was the usual recourse.
I didn't go to a very violent school, and fights got rarer as age made them more serious. My parents also treated it as normal. They didn't encourage it, but it wasn't a major outrage. Schools too. A note to parents or somesuch minor penalty was the usual recourse.
The Columbine happened in April 1999 and dominated the news cycle for a long time. It likely had a big impact on a generation of American kids. Kids that would otherwise have proceeded straight to a fistfight may have had second thoughts in case the person attacked showed up the next day with a rifle.
As for later years, schools took a zero-tolerance policy, so that would have cut down on it significantly. With social media use increasing towards the end of the 2000s, fights could have been reduced further because people did not want to end up as a punchline (no pun intended) on Worldstar or Vine.
As for later years, schools took a zero-tolerance policy, so that would have cut down on it significantly. With social media use increasing towards the end of the 2000s, fights could have been reduced further because people did not want to end up as a punchline (no pun intended) on Worldstar or Vine.
This is probably the answer right here. Fighting now means you'll have video fight evidence gathered from multiple angles, backed up to the cloud, and then potentially used as a societal-attack on you and your family, potentially for years or into perpetuity.
good answer. cheers.
I’m a similar age and in comparison you went to an extremely violent school particularly if adults were treating it as normal!
I experienced way more violence in my late teens and early twenties thanks to drinking in dodgy towns.
I experienced way more violence in my late teens and early twenties thanks to drinking in dodgy towns.
Different culture, that is all.
If you read Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer and Huck Fin, boys fighting, even if they just met seemed to be part of life.
> The summer evenings were long. It was not dark, yet. Presently Tom checked his whistle. A stranger was before him—a boy a shade larger than himself. A new-comer of any age or either sex was an im-pressive curiosity in the poor little shabby village of St. Petersburg. This boy was well dressed, too—well dressed on a week-day. This was simply astounding. His cap was a dainty thing, his close-buttoned blue cloth roundabout was new and natty, and so were his pantaloons. He had shoes on—and it was only Friday. He even wore a necktie, a bright bit of ribbon. He had a citified air about him that ate into Tom’s vitals. The more Tom stared at the splendid marvel, the higher he turned up his nose at his finery and the shabbier and shabbier his own outfit seemed to him to grow. Neither boy spoke. If one moved, the other moved—but only sidewise, in a circle; they kept face to face and eye to eye all the time. Finally Tom said: “I can lick you!”
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/74/74-h/74-h.htm#c1
I'm not from that culture myself but I know people who are.
If you read Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer and Huck Fin, boys fighting, even if they just met seemed to be part of life.
> The summer evenings were long. It was not dark, yet. Presently Tom checked his whistle. A stranger was before him—a boy a shade larger than himself. A new-comer of any age or either sex was an im-pressive curiosity in the poor little shabby village of St. Petersburg. This boy was well dressed, too—well dressed on a week-day. This was simply astounding. His cap was a dainty thing, his close-buttoned blue cloth roundabout was new and natty, and so were his pantaloons. He had shoes on—and it was only Friday. He even wore a necktie, a bright bit of ribbon. He had a citified air about him that ate into Tom’s vitals. The more Tom stared at the splendid marvel, the higher he turned up his nose at his finery and the shabbier and shabbier his own outfit seemed to him to grow. Neither boy spoke. If one moved, the other moved—but only sidewise, in a circle; they kept face to face and eye to eye all the time. Finally Tom said: “I can lick you!”
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/74/74-h/74-h.htm#c1
I'm not from that culture myself but I know people who are.
Fighting is one mechanism for establishing the social order of a group. So in the absence of some way of ranking people, people will eventually devolve to fist fights to determine who is boss.
Same age, grew up in the rural southern US and this was my experience in middle and high school. Lots of fighting. Everyone who wanted to "be somebody" was under pressure to participate in it. Winning meant advancing in social rank. At some point the school cracked down and the suspension for fighting was 10 days. After that it was lots of meeting people at such and such location after school or at some party on Friday night to settle things.
Definitely tapered off the last couple years of high school, but some of the rougher kids continued to engage it. Those kids pretty quickly got into serious enough trouble that they ended up in jail, expelled, on probation. That quieted things down a good bit.
Definitely tapered off the last couple years of high school, but some of the rougher kids continued to engage it. Those kids pretty quickly got into serious enough trouble that they ended up in jail, expelled, on probation. That quieted things down a good bit.
I think the problem is now, school fights are handled by actual police, so there's very severe consequences, as in criminal records, not just a suspension. So its likely no tolerance policy removes these kids or ruins their lives.
Yeah, in the latter years of high school, I saw a number of fights end in handcuffs.
Zero-tolerance policies (suspension or expulsion are quick), Columbine (fear of revenge via a gun), and cellphones with cameras killed "for fun"/random school fights. School kids in general had way more leeway before the late 90s.
I'm 33 but grew up in a developing nation.
This was common starting at around age 8. The boys fought pretty much every week. Exactly like you describe, there were rankings, within the class and in the larger grade.
This was common for other people who I met later that from developing nations. Not sure if this still happens anymore.
This was common for other people who I met later that from developing nations. Not sure if this still happens anymore.
Probably lead.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le...
[ EDIT for the downvoters: this isn't a joke or some snide remark. The lead hypothesis as the basis for the huge spike in violence in various societies, especially among teenagers and young adults, has huge amounts of evidence. Correlation is not causation, but we even have a plausible causal mechanism. ]
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le...
[ EDIT for the downvoters: this isn't a joke or some snide remark. The lead hypothesis as the basis for the huge spike in violence in various societies, especially among teenagers and young adults, has huge amounts of evidence. Correlation is not causation, but we even have a plausible causal mechanism. ]
It probably depended on where you were. I attended grade school in the US in the 1990s and got into only one “fight” where punches were thrown. No teachers were around but there would have been punishment had it been reported.
Middle/High School in the mid-late 80's here.
Fights were not uncommon. I saw probably 8 or 10 inside school and a handful more after school at designated spots over 4 years in high school.
It was a suspension offense but no police or record was involved.
I won't go into details about my involvement in any school fights, but there were 2 incidents with tormentors at new schools that were quickly resolved and I lived in peace thereafter nor do I regret my actions. Besides I was like 8 and 11 years old at those times.
I don't think those "rougher" times were good and I'm glad there is less of that now. Still (and this might be personal bias), I can't help feeling like we lost something in the sense there is a fundamental underlying biological reality and people are shocked when they find out it actually exists underneath everything and people are more balanced if they learn this at an emotional level early.
I think these are the conditions we evolved under (constant threat of violence and need to deal with it) so even though it's not good and people got hurt and killed needlessly, we are somewhat adapted to that and changing the circumstances makes us a bit neurotic. Or something along those lines.
Fights were not uncommon. I saw probably 8 or 10 inside school and a handful more after school at designated spots over 4 years in high school.
It was a suspension offense but no police or record was involved.
I won't go into details about my involvement in any school fights, but there were 2 incidents with tormentors at new schools that were quickly resolved and I lived in peace thereafter nor do I regret my actions. Besides I was like 8 and 11 years old at those times.
I don't think those "rougher" times were good and I'm glad there is less of that now. Still (and this might be personal bias), I can't help feeling like we lost something in the sense there is a fundamental underlying biological reality and people are shocked when they find out it actually exists underneath everything and people are more balanced if they learn this at an emotional level early.
I think these are the conditions we evolved under (constant threat of violence and need to deal with it) so even though it's not good and people got hurt and killed needlessly, we are somewhat adapted to that and changing the circumstances makes us a bit neurotic. Or something along those lines.
Similar age group as you and also in the US. I can recall a single fight in school, and I honestly don't think any real punches thrown; it was more of a stand off with light hitting that died down quicker than it started.
Same, late 80s/early 90s. I had one altercation in 2nd (?) grade where we mostly just pushed each other around and then wrestled on the ground. I can think of a couple times people got in each others faces in high school, but no knock-down-drag-out fights to speak of.
It's so weird that someone would say they didn't go to a violent school, but there were constant fights. Violence doesn't mean "weekly school shootings."
It's so weird that someone would say they didn't go to a violent school, but there were constant fights. Violence doesn't mean "weekly school shootings."
Maybe its a US thing? Grew up in the Soviet Block Countries, and fighting was very looked down on.
I did encounter some, but it was more like we as kids watched a lot of US media and thought this was how we needed to behave but were more “playing at it” than actually being vindictive.
My one fight in school was with the “toughest” kid in my age group (I was the nerdy outsider they were bonding over to defeat), we duked it out in the yard with half of the school watching, and didn’t get a clear winner. We both got tired and called it quits.
Both got reprimanded of course. Weirdly enough that was the most violence I’ve encountered in my life, period.
I blame video games. Aggressive teens got an outlet where they can establish rankings, troll, be dicks, or defend others, with zero parent supervision.
In my case, since it was done in computer cafes, it had its strong social aspect, with crowds cheering, gangs and clans. Counter Strike was more of a religion to us than anything. And it was so much fun that we didn’t really need “the real thing”.
I did encounter some, but it was more like we as kids watched a lot of US media and thought this was how we needed to behave but were more “playing at it” than actually being vindictive.
My one fight in school was with the “toughest” kid in my age group (I was the nerdy outsider they were bonding over to defeat), we duked it out in the yard with half of the school watching, and didn’t get a clear winner. We both got tired and called it quits.
Both got reprimanded of course. Weirdly enough that was the most violence I’ve encountered in my life, period.
I blame video games. Aggressive teens got an outlet where they can establish rankings, troll, be dicks, or defend others, with zero parent supervision.
In my case, since it was done in computer cafes, it had its strong social aspect, with crowds cheering, gangs and clans. Counter Strike was more of a religion to us than anything. And it was so much fun that we didn’t really need “the real thing”.
Looked down on? Must've been a good school, or maybe even country.
Fights and bullying were extremely common in my schools (went to several), though they were the standard public ones (I'm not even sure there were private schools at the time). Late 90s to very early 00's.
I see nowadays it's much less common, as kids are all on smartphones, they've got no time for any physical activities. Silver linings, I guess. Kids still exclude the less "cool" ones, but at least no one (or fewer of them) gets spit on and beaten up.
Fights and bullying were extremely common in my schools (went to several), though they were the standard public ones (I'm not even sure there were private schools at the time). Late 90s to very early 00's.
I see nowadays it's much less common, as kids are all on smartphones, they've got no time for any physical activities. Silver linings, I guess. Kids still exclude the less "cool" ones, but at least no one (or fewer of them) gets spit on and beaten up.
I've seen kids get expelled for getting in fights, even off-campus on their own time. That kind of stuff simply isn't tolerated anymore.
I was in HS from 04-08. I can recall maybe one fight that teachers would break up a year. The people who got in them were not praised as tough guys, but idiots to be mocked.
Grew up in USSR and Israel.
Nothing even close to it.
this was in raanana, early 90s.
[deleted]
netanya, 93-97 in worst high school of the city. those that were expelled from it, next stop was a cross between school and juvie.
fights were few and between. those that i remember had ethnic background.
fights were few and between. those that i remember had ethnic background.
Really?! I guess we got different samples. I don't recall many/any ethnic based stuff, olice intervention and I don't even know of anyone who went to juvie.. or even to court. I do know some kids who went to pnimiya over this kind of thing... but that was parents not authorities.
Same years, 5km apart, different experiences. ...Maybe just a different recollection of the experiences.
Same years, 5km apart, different experiences. ...Maybe just a different recollection of the experiences.
we probably misunderstood one each other - i though that you wrote that you had fights in raanana :)
in general it was totally peaceful in netanya, no "testosterone measurements" with exception of couple of big fights that did get police involvement
I did. There were fights around that age, middle school. I just noted that repercussions were mild at the time. I definitely don't remember police involvement in kid affairs until high school, and even then it wasn't about violence.
I don't think it's that way anymore.
I don't think it's that way anymore.
well, those couple of fights that i talk about, were massive. kids from other schools in city arrived in following days "to show presence". so there were some police. (i am describing high school, grades 9-12).
but in daily life, there were no fights that I remember.
Do you mean that the fighters were of an ethnic minority that apparently had a higher cultural acceptance of violence, or that the fights were ethnic conflicts?
it was "russians" vs "maroccans" (actually all of them jews). fights were between kids that were troublemakers anyway on either side of equation. usually as follow up to some slur like "dirty russian" and whatever could be thrown into other direction.
but there were only like 2 or 3 of those fights over 4 years in school. rest of time it was quiet
From what I've noticed, everyone's on their smartphones, too busy for physical activities of any kind.
They still do happen indeed, but the penalty can be much higher.
I think its just a sedentary lifestyle with poor diet causing much of this. Almost all well paying jobs require you to sit motionless(well almost motionless - typing) in a chair 80% of the working day, couple that with fast food and cheap processed food everywhere, voila, you have a health crisis of obesity and low testosterone.
It's too complex of a phenomenon to reduce to one, singular explanation.
However, increasingly sedentary lifestyles are definitely part of the problem. Jobs encourage people to sit motionless, of course, but most of our leisure time has been replaced by other motionless activities.
Global obesity rates have also been rising steadily while testosterone levels have trended downward. Obesity is well known to reduce testosterone levels.
There might be additional answers in environmental toxicities, but it's a mistake to ignore the elephant in the room: Lifestyle is a problem.
However, increasingly sedentary lifestyles are definitely part of the problem. Jobs encourage people to sit motionless, of course, but most of our leisure time has been replaced by other motionless activities.
Global obesity rates have also been rising steadily while testosterone levels have trended downward. Obesity is well known to reduce testosterone levels.
There might be additional answers in environmental toxicities, but it's a mistake to ignore the elephant in the room: Lifestyle is a problem.
Well paid people have substantially lower obesity rates than poorly paid people.
Regardless of whether it's true, I don't see how this is relevant. The parent wasn't saying it's better to be poor, they're saying it's not helpful to not move. If you had a high paying, physically active job that you could do without injury, it would be better for you than any of the other combinations of pay ranking and level of activity. Likewise if the cultural ideal at the top was not decreased activity. If everyone had sedentary jobs and the cheapest food was the worst for you, you'd probably expect those with a surplus of money to be able to compensate better. Those without the need to compensate will be better off, but rich sedentary people will still need to.
They are normal weight but often very unfit.
They are on average more fit than poorer people.
There's a very credible argument that decreasing lead exposure over the last few decades (banning leaded gasoline) has driven a large portion of the decrease in violent crime.
Decreasing testosterone could also be a contributor, but it's unlikely to be as significant a factor from what I can tell.
See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis or https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le....
Decreasing testosterone could also be a contributor, but it's unlikely to be as significant a factor from what I can tell.
See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis or https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/02/an-updated-le....
There is a large amount of circumstantial evidence that the plasticizers used to replace BPA, which lowers testosterone in men, also lower testosterone, and are simply less well studied.
Combined with the increased use of bottled water, takeout in plastic containers, tupperware, and other food-related uses, and the new prevalence of microplastics in our environment, it's easy to imagine this has a global effect on men's testosterone levels.
Combined with the increased use of bottled water, takeout in plastic containers, tupperware, and other food-related uses, and the new prevalence of microplastics in our environment, it's easy to imagine this has a global effect on men's testosterone levels.
Violent crime in the US has been dropping for some time now. Reduction of environmental lead (gas and paint) is one of the factors as well. https://www.medicaldaily.com/leaded-gasoline-linked-rise-and...
Also I would guess that at 42 you are much less likely to be in a situation where a physical fight might start than you were in the 1990s - at bars at 2am for example. I know that I am.
Also I would guess that at 42 you are much less likely to be in a situation where a physical fight might start than you were in the 1990s - at bars at 2am for example. I know that I am.
Yes, this would be my first suspicion too, especially for a comparison with the 1990s.
> For instance, the peak in leaded gasoline use in the late 1970's corresponds to a peak in aggravated assault rates in the late 1990's in urban areas across the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Violence
> For instance, the peak in leaded gasoline use in the late 1970's corresponds to a peak in aggravated assault rates in the late 1990's in urban areas across the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning#Violence
I wonder if this could be the causal link between the two that has always been missing, lead -> higher testosterone -> more violence.
I've read that fatty tissue in the body triggers an increase in estrogen production, and that obesity can thus trigger a vicious cycle (insofar as estrogen triggers an increase in fatty tissue). Certainly, exposure to plastics and other environmental factors might increase estrogen levels alone, but given that we know that people (everywhere, I think) are fatter than they used to be, and that this seems significantly due to their being more sedentary and having worse diets (more processed foods, etc.), isn't that a plausible simple explanation? (Or at least one worth rigorously analyzing?)
> plausible simple explanation
Yes, and they address this in the study. They controlled for BMI, among other confounding variables.
Yes, and they address this in the study. They controlled for BMI, among other confounding variables.
Indeed. A very short book that covers estrogen blockers and talks about these issues is "The Anti-Estrogenic Diet", by Ori Hofmekler.
What is the process for determining long-term safety of new substances that might end up in the environment? Ah right, just use them until problems show up, then try to deny and hide the problems for a few more years. It would not surprise me at all if even in the absence of a smoking gun there are simply a lot of endocrine disruptors at low (even within safe limits, individually) dosages working simultaneously.
I recently had blood work done bc I thought I might be low T and mine was actually over the high band. I am a pretty serious hobby jogger. I run every day and I try and follow something close to what a serious HS runner would do. Is that why, or enough to explain it? Idk, but I do know if I didn’t exercise to compensate for screen-life, everything would be fucked
It's even possible, I imagine, that it's the reverse... Perhaps testosterone production is increased by a toxin or stressor that our ancestors were exposed to but we managed to minimize.
> These days even drunk young guys seem to be content with hurling a few insults.
I think there is a strong cultural influence for that. I'm from Spain and in my country drunk fighting is something that mostly British and German tourist do. We don't understand why, we may get super drunk and have super heated arguments, but it's quite uncommon we will get to a physical fight. But in the areas around the Mediterranean Sea full of tourists, fights are a daily occurrence.
I think there is a strong cultural influence for that. I'm from Spain and in my country drunk fighting is something that mostly British and German tourist do. We don't understand why, we may get super drunk and have super heated arguments, but it's quite uncommon we will get to a physical fight. But in the areas around the Mediterranean Sea full of tourists, fights are a daily occurrence.
T levels also depend on where one grows up rather than where they end up living: https://www.everydayhealth.com/mens-health/where-men-spend-t...
Does this research provide any insight into why testosterone levels have been in steady decline in the United States for several decades? If a safer, less-challenging environment leads to higher testosterone levels, wouldn’t levels be rising instead of falling?
Magid points to trends toward higher rates of obesity and lower rates of smoking that at least partially explain lower levels of testosterone. “There are a number of theories why this might be occurring, and there are those who dispute whether this is either a real trend or what it could mean for male health in the long term,” he says.
Does this research provide any insight into why testosterone levels have been in steady decline in the United States for several decades? If a safer, less-challenging environment leads to higher testosterone levels, wouldn’t levels be rising instead of falling?
Magid points to trends toward higher rates of obesity and lower rates of smoking that at least partially explain lower levels of testosterone. “There are a number of theories why this might be occurring, and there are those who dispute whether this is either a real trend or what it could mean for male health in the long term,” he says.
Cameras everywhere make for easy criminal records so people throw punches less these days.
Yup, why go around and publicly make a fool of yourself when you can do that anonymously online?
Conversely, I regularly test as testosterone deficient but I’ve got some muscle (under a dad bod) and would describe myself as pretty aggressive (but try and remain peaceful and burn aggression in BJJ.)
I am wondering if our current understanding of testosterone traits is wrong, or perhaps my understanding is wrong?
Edit: I’m a little older than you.
I am wondering if our current understanding of testosterone traits is wrong, or perhaps my understanding is wrong?
Edit: I’m a little older than you.
Presumably there are other factors, but I'm pretty sure testosterone correlates with aggressive traits, sex drive and other similar aspects, most definitely.
You can have muscle if you have low testosterone, but it will develop slower compared to if you had higher testosterone.
You can have muscle if you have low testosterone, but it will develop slower compared to if you had higher testosterone.
My gut is saying : plastic.
microplastics invaded the water supplies. fast food restaurants delivering diabetes to the masses with little scrutiny while enjoying a number of subsidies for commodities (namely sugar). O&G polluting our oceans with oil spills, destroying our air quality. chemical companies dumping their toxic waste into our land/water and delivering poisonous products (pfoas, "c8") that end up in our bodies and serve as "endocrine disruptors." our food is covered in pesticides, nitrates, and various preservatives.
take your pick.
take your pick.
I remember in 4 Hour Body Tim Ferris experimented with no longer storing his phone in his pocket (used an arm band instead) and it boosted his sperm count by a ton.
Anecdote: My phone has been on my desk for a year now and I feel like I should get tested for low testosterone. I will say however, my sperm count is probably fine seeing as my wife got pregnant during lockdown.
I believe its sugar and caffeine which are so popular in today's world. Caffeine and sugar both raise cortisol which leads to decreased testosterones levels.
https://news.utexas.edu/2010/09/27/stress-hormone-blocks-tes...
https://news.utexas.edu/2010/09/27/stress-hormone-blocks-tes...
>>>> Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation.
Probably a minor contributor. As the paper states:
According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins.
More like lifestyle changes.
Probably a minor contributor. As the paper states:
According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins.
More like lifestyle changes.
> Getting into physical fight was much more common than today
This is something I often think about. I think we (as a society) have lost a certain something by the reduction of violence. I'm not advocating for violence here or anything, but sometimes a knuckle to the face is the lesser of two evils. We hardly ever see "regular" violence anymore, by which I mean the occasional fistfight. When violence is brought to our attention, it's using knives, guns or bombs. I think in a way we've become so afraid of getting punched in the teeth that we've now collectively become afraid of standing up to people. Only the police are allowed to execute violence, and in handing over that responsibility we've lost some of our guts.
Some anecdata: Years ago, I was witness to an attempted robbery in a restaurant. Some idiot came in and threatened the owner with a bottle. The place was packed, but everyone suddenly found something else more interesting to look at ("ooh, I'm wearing new shoes", "ooh, there's some fries on my plate"). No one got involved, because 20+ people were afraid of one idiot with a bottle. I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and threw him out while the owner snatched the bottle out of his hands. We held on to him until the cops showed up. But no one else did jack shit. No one even asked if the owner was ok or anything. My faith in humanity took a deep dive that day.
Something tells me that had this happened 100 years ago, a lot more people would have been willing to get involved.
TL;DR; Exposure to small-time violence might help us feel safer and be more responsible adults.
This is something I often think about. I think we (as a society) have lost a certain something by the reduction of violence. I'm not advocating for violence here or anything, but sometimes a knuckle to the face is the lesser of two evils. We hardly ever see "regular" violence anymore, by which I mean the occasional fistfight. When violence is brought to our attention, it's using knives, guns or bombs. I think in a way we've become so afraid of getting punched in the teeth that we've now collectively become afraid of standing up to people. Only the police are allowed to execute violence, and in handing over that responsibility we've lost some of our guts.
Some anecdata: Years ago, I was witness to an attempted robbery in a restaurant. Some idiot came in and threatened the owner with a bottle. The place was packed, but everyone suddenly found something else more interesting to look at ("ooh, I'm wearing new shoes", "ooh, there's some fries on my plate"). No one got involved, because 20+ people were afraid of one idiot with a bottle. I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and threw him out while the owner snatched the bottle out of his hands. We held on to him until the cops showed up. But no one else did jack shit. No one even asked if the owner was ok or anything. My faith in humanity took a deep dive that day.
Something tells me that had this happened 100 years ago, a lot more people would have been willing to get involved.
TL;DR; Exposure to small-time violence might help us feel safer and be more responsible adults.
Contrary to popular belief, testosterone doesn’t cause males to rage and become violent.
citation?
I keep finding stuff that links psychological aggression and testosterone in men, but only loosely -- i'd like to read something contrary to that if you have it. [0]:
[0]: https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-22/edition-1/testo...
I keep finding stuff that links psychological aggression and testosterone in men, but only loosely -- i'd like to read something contrary to that if you have it. [0]:
[0]: https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-22/edition-1/testo...
There is a pretty good talk by Robert Sapolsky on the subject, and as a researcher he did a meta study in the subject. If you want to fast forward, 30:15 is a good place to start.
https://youtu.be/2bnSY4L3V8s?t=1815
To summarize in text, Testosterone does not cause aggression. It amplify existing defensive behavior in the context of a persons social status being challenged. A person that has high status, or more significantly gains social status, also trigger higher levels of Testosterone. In turn Testosterone increases behavior which in the cultural context maintain that new won status.
https://youtu.be/2bnSY4L3V8s?t=1815
To summarize in text, Testosterone does not cause aggression. It amplify existing defensive behavior in the context of a persons social status being challenged. A person that has high status, or more significantly gains social status, also trigger higher levels of Testosterone. In turn Testosterone increases behavior which in the cultural context maintain that new won status.
> getting into physical fight was much more common than today.
You also largely got away with it back then too.
When I was in school, so long as you didn't hurt the other person too badly, the punishment for fighting was generally getting thrown into a room with all the other bad kids and forced to sit in silence for the entire school day. If you did it too much, they'd eventually expel you, but I only remember this happening to a few people.
Today, I'm pretty sure you end up getting your ass beat by the cops before getting thrown into juvie.
Edit: plus, we have video games today.
You also largely got away with it back then too.
When I was in school, so long as you didn't hurt the other person too badly, the punishment for fighting was generally getting thrown into a room with all the other bad kids and forced to sit in silence for the entire school day. If you did it too much, they'd eventually expel you, but I only remember this happening to a few people.
Today, I'm pretty sure you end up getting your ass beat by the cops before getting thrown into juvie.
Edit: plus, we have video games today.
I was listening to a US podcast the other day, and I heard that some police and army recruits have never been in a fist fight in their life. Completely different to my school experience in the 80's.
Not sure if the US Army do anything similar to this but it would be a bit of a shock to the system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_(military_training_exe...
Not sure if the US Army do anything similar to this but it would be a bit of a shock to the system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_(military_training_exe...
This could also be explained by phasing out of lead-based paints.
No, I believe this is due to the phase-out of leaded gasoline.
Interesting graph here: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/media/images/74298000/gif/...
Interesting graph here: https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/media/images/74298000/gif/...
I wonder if it has anything to do with the high EMF environment people live in these days. The timeline certainly correlates.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S230505001...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S230505001...
[deleted]
Obesity is mostly to blame. Fat cells kill humans by harvesting resources and messing up hormones.
https://twitter.com/search?q=%22from:Royal_arse%20Adipocytes...
https://twitter.com/search?q=%22from:Royal_arse%20Adipocytes...
They controlled for that.
>Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation.
This has a notion that high testosterone levels and high aggression are something normal and perhaps desirable.
I think the most probable explanation is that people are just evolving to be less aggressive naturally.
This has a notion that high testosterone levels and high aggression are something normal and perhaps desirable.
I think the most probable explanation is that people are just evolving to be less aggressive naturally.
> Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation.
Plastics.
Plastics.
> Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation.
It's porn. Porn has proliferated right alongside this trend.
It's porn. Porn has proliferated right alongside this trend.
I doubt this is the only factor, but I imagine it contributes. I suspect it's more due to sedentary lifestyles and high-carb/sugar/fat diet.
> Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation.
Toxicity of media, liberal arts/Ivy league graduates going to have a career in education/media/HR constantly telling man and young boys how toxic masculinity is harming their fragile beings.
American culture has an wide extending impact. 5 years ago toxic masculinity was not even a term here. Now I hear it teachers in pre-school in my country of <10million population.
Toxicity of media, liberal arts/Ivy league graduates going to have a career in education/media/HR constantly telling man and young boys how toxic masculinity is harming their fragile beings.
American culture has an wide extending impact. 5 years ago toxic masculinity was not even a term here. Now I hear it teachers in pre-school in my country of <10million population.
Isn't it just the more sedentary life, the safer environment?
Pesticides in our food?
Pesticides in our food are likely one of the reason as to why we see a "pandemic-like" increase in Alzheimer's disease among our old [1]. It is not too far-fetched to think this could affect our young in various ways as well.
[1] http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_474CF2C8A20B4173988486AC... (relevant portion min 40-45)
[1] http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_474CF2C8A20B4173988486AC... (relevant portion min 40-45)
I was thinking about glyphosate as an endocrine disrupter.
Ie https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19539684/
Ie https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19539684/
then again that could be due to the reduction of environmental lead
Aren’t Parabens and related plastics endocrine disrupters and weak estrogen mimics? Could be one plausible explanation
Probably a) changing culture. b) young men today don't have brain damage from lead exposure.
> Possible toxicity of something
This assumes (it seems to be universally assumed in this thread) that the earlier average level of testosterone - meaning the year 1999 - is more optimal, which doesn't seem evident to me.
Why not, equally: a toxin has possibly been removed?
This assumes (it seems to be universally assumed in this thread) that the earlier average level of testosterone - meaning the year 1999 - is more optimal, which doesn't seem evident to me.
Why not, equally: a toxin has possibly been removed?
Testosterone has well-studied correlations to muscular health and the tuning of status in social behavior. Going further, it also affects behavior in a way which I can only label as agentic: it's correlated with motivation, vigilance, and low levels of anxiety or fear.[0]
I choose these words for two reasons. First, the ratio of muscle to fat is important for most any metabolic disorder (this means both diabetes and obesity, which are comorbid). Muscles are actively important in metabolic health as they burn calories through use. And contrariwise, among their other problems, fat cells store and secrete estrogens, which is problematic for those that wish to identify as cis male. Clearly some level of the growth cascades that testosterone produces is useful for metabolic health, if not testosterone itself. Else we get into an obesity spiral and limit the development of our own bodies.
Second, high testosterone is often associated with anti-social outcomes like violence. While this is (weakly!) true, this isn't the whole truth. For instance, people given testosterone actually produced fairer deals vs non-blinded placebo.[0] So it seems more appropriate to call testosterone a status regulator than an aggression hormone.
Let's say we avoid the view that no testosterone is good – this would be ad absurdum considering its central role in the body's development. Even if you were to disagree as to basal level of testosterone in 1999, there are clear positive outcomes associated with testosterone which we can organize our sense of what is optimal around; it is possible that we have swung too far, and our current levels are not good enough.
To deny the positive aspects of testosterone, is to deny its usefulness to metabolic health, to regulating status, and maintaining the spiritedness to engage with life.
[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uRg5Q2vAteDem5b5S/social-sta...
I choose these words for two reasons. First, the ratio of muscle to fat is important for most any metabolic disorder (this means both diabetes and obesity, which are comorbid). Muscles are actively important in metabolic health as they burn calories through use. And contrariwise, among their other problems, fat cells store and secrete estrogens, which is problematic for those that wish to identify as cis male. Clearly some level of the growth cascades that testosterone produces is useful for metabolic health, if not testosterone itself. Else we get into an obesity spiral and limit the development of our own bodies.
Second, high testosterone is often associated with anti-social outcomes like violence. While this is (weakly!) true, this isn't the whole truth. For instance, people given testosterone actually produced fairer deals vs non-blinded placebo.[0] So it seems more appropriate to call testosterone a status regulator than an aggression hormone.
Let's say we avoid the view that no testosterone is good – this would be ad absurdum considering its central role in the body's development. Even if you were to disagree as to basal level of testosterone in 1999, there are clear positive outcomes associated with testosterone which we can organize our sense of what is optimal around; it is possible that we have swung too far, and our current levels are not good enough.
To deny the positive aspects of testosterone, is to deny its usefulness to metabolic health, to regulating status, and maintaining the spiritedness to engage with life.
[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uRg5Q2vAteDem5b5S/social-sta...
>To deny the positive aspects of testosterone...
I think this comment illustrates a significant problem of people's (including some scientists) thinking around testosterone.
I'm identifying that people are only suggesting positive aspects of high testosterone and ignoring the negative. And, you are again reiterating the positive aspects in a biased, almost spiritualised way.
Clearly, as you suggest, 100% testosterone is absurd and not desirable, so there must be some limit to the amazing wonder-drug testosterone. Excessive testosterone is harmful to health apart from in behavioural changes (it's linked at least to heart failure).
I think this comment illustrates a significant problem of people's (including some scientists) thinking around testosterone.
I'm identifying that people are only suggesting positive aspects of high testosterone and ignoring the negative. And, you are again reiterating the positive aspects in a biased, almost spiritualised way.
Clearly, as you suggest, 100% testosterone is absurd and not desirable, so there must be some limit to the amazing wonder-drug testosterone. Excessive testosterone is harmful to health apart from in behavioural changes (it's linked at least to heart failure).
What we're doing in this line of thought is negotiating that limit.
My remark was that no testosterone is absurd due to the critical role it has in development, providing a bound on what it would mean for testosterone to be a toxin. Some is good. I acknowledge that having high-enough testosterone levels to the point where heart failure and prostate cancer is implicated, would be difficult (although if true, the effect is non-linear: this study did not replicate issues with heart disease, nor did its citations[0]). So too much is bad. If you insist on framing testosterone as a toxin, then the dose will make the poison as well as the cure.
(100% testosterone is a nonsense quantity since you can always raise blood concentrations, but let's put it at values greater than 1000ng/dl for most people)
A universal drop in testosterone within at least the US, with something leftover to explain after controlling for lifestyle factors, and no sign of stalling in the trend, brings us to a conundrum. If we do nothing, and testosterone decreases faster than it used to, and some testosterone is good, and no testosterone is bad, but too much testosterone is bad, should we stop the process? Unless you set the "too much" to be much lower than what has been medically accepted, the answer must be yes at some point.
Since this is about picking an optima, what is at stake is whether or not testosterone levels before the 2000s were responsible for outsized rates of heart disease and prostate cancer (or other morbidities), and if this is true, whether or not the problems gained through the decline of testosterone weigh off the cost of its presence. We could include other externalities like status-seeking behaviors or sperm counts, which would make the comparison harder but more honest.
What I expect - I am not sure - is that testosterone's presence in heart disease (not prostate cancer) will be comorbid with testosterone-independent factors, such as diet/exercise. And since the norm seems to be testosterone declining with age I would be surprised if pushing that curve towards youth ends up being a good thing.
Feel free to challenge these assumptions, but I really think what we need to do is debate the weights.
> I'm identifying that people are only suggesting positive aspects of high testosterone and ignoring the negative. And, you are again reiterating the positive aspects in a biased, almost spiritualised way.
I am curious why you would use the word "spiritualized". I was not invoking the supernatural within my argument (the word "spiritedness" doesn't count; its meaning is secular). The emphasis on positive factors is because I'm debating your emphasis on the negatives. Attempting to frame the argument as spiritual without pointing to particulars is to add connotations of irrationality which aren't there. It is true that I am arguing emphatically.
[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28740585/
My remark was that no testosterone is absurd due to the critical role it has in development, providing a bound on what it would mean for testosterone to be a toxin. Some is good. I acknowledge that having high-enough testosterone levels to the point where heart failure and prostate cancer is implicated, would be difficult (although if true, the effect is non-linear: this study did not replicate issues with heart disease, nor did its citations[0]). So too much is bad. If you insist on framing testosterone as a toxin, then the dose will make the poison as well as the cure.
(100% testosterone is a nonsense quantity since you can always raise blood concentrations, but let's put it at values greater than 1000ng/dl for most people)
A universal drop in testosterone within at least the US, with something leftover to explain after controlling for lifestyle factors, and no sign of stalling in the trend, brings us to a conundrum. If we do nothing, and testosterone decreases faster than it used to, and some testosterone is good, and no testosterone is bad, but too much testosterone is bad, should we stop the process? Unless you set the "too much" to be much lower than what has been medically accepted, the answer must be yes at some point.
Since this is about picking an optima, what is at stake is whether or not testosterone levels before the 2000s were responsible for outsized rates of heart disease and prostate cancer (or other morbidities), and if this is true, whether or not the problems gained through the decline of testosterone weigh off the cost of its presence. We could include other externalities like status-seeking behaviors or sperm counts, which would make the comparison harder but more honest.
What I expect - I am not sure - is that testosterone's presence in heart disease (not prostate cancer) will be comorbid with testosterone-independent factors, such as diet/exercise. And since the norm seems to be testosterone declining with age I would be surprised if pushing that curve towards youth ends up being a good thing.
Feel free to challenge these assumptions, but I really think what we need to do is debate the weights.
> I'm identifying that people are only suggesting positive aspects of high testosterone and ignoring the negative. And, you are again reiterating the positive aspects in a biased, almost spiritualised way.
I am curious why you would use the word "spiritualized". I was not invoking the supernatural within my argument (the word "spiritedness" doesn't count; its meaning is secular). The emphasis on positive factors is because I'm debating your emphasis on the negatives. Attempting to frame the argument as spiritual without pointing to particulars is to add connotations of irrationality which aren't there. It is true that I am arguing emphatically.
[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28740585/
> If you insist on framing testosterone as a toxin
I didn't intend my argument that way.
I was responding to the parent who was proposing that some environmental toxin had been introduced since the 1990s resulting in lower testosterone levels in men, seemingly from an underlying assumption that high testosterone is inherently good.
I was challenging that assumption directly. It seems at least equally plausible that some environmental toxin has been removed since the 1990s (to be specific, lead would be a good candidate) resulting in lower testosterone levels in men.
I didn't intend my argument that way.
I was responding to the parent who was proposing that some environmental toxin had been introduced since the 1990s resulting in lower testosterone levels in men, seemingly from an underlying assumption that high testosterone is inherently good.
I was challenging that assumption directly. It seems at least equally plausible that some environmental toxin has been removed since the 1990s (to be specific, lead would be a good candidate) resulting in lower testosterone levels in men.
If you look at photos from the 90s and from the last couple of years people were very obviously much healthier in the 90s. Maybe it wasn't optimal, but without further evidence I'm going to believe it is closer to optimal than where we are now.
Back in the 90s we didn't all have phones in our pockets with high quality cameras. If someone got out a camera, it was a special occasion where people probably looked nice to begin with. On top of that, the pictures you see from the 90s are the pictures people have kept for 20 years - again creating a bias for situations where people looked nicer than they were day to day.
If you exclusively look at pictures from the 90s of people doing mundane things like shopping at a grocery store, they don't look any different from people today (except perhaps with worse fashion sense).
If you exclusively look at pictures from the 90s of people doing mundane things like shopping at a grocery store, they don't look any different from people today (except perhaps with worse fashion sense).
I grew up at a beach town. There really is no debate here. If you go back to the 80s it's even more extreme.
I too grew up in a beach town. It's selective memory.
Combined with an increase in obesity over the last several decades, is saying "it's just selective memory" as strong of a rebuttal?
The average american woman weighed 163.8 lbs in 1999, she weighed 171 in 2020. Average BMI increased from 28.2 to 29.1 in the same time period. Women on average added 2 inches to waist size.
Men went from an average weight of 189.4 to 197.9 in the same time period and BMI went from 27.8 to 29.1. Men on average added 1 inch on waist size.
A 5% increase in weight over 20 years might be concerning from a public health perspective, but it's not something you'd see just by looking at people.
Men went from an average weight of 189.4 to 197.9 in the same time period and BMI went from 27.8 to 29.1. Men on average added 1 inch on waist size.
A 5% increase in weight over 20 years might be concerning from a public health perspective, but it's not something you'd see just by looking at people.
From memory, there weren't as many obese people back in the 80's/ early 90's. Being really heavy was a thing that made a person stand out.
I think it's a lot more common now but that might just be selective memory.
I think it's a lot more common now but that might just be selective memory.
The internet exposes us to astronomically more people than we ever could have seen in the 80s and 90s. Really heavy people are still rare today, but if you look at enough pictures of enough people, especially if these sites showing these pictures self-select for oddities, you're going to see quite a few, which makes them seem much more abundant today than they really are, plus much more rare in the past than they really were.
Again, look at pictures of groups in candid settings and you'll notice similar levels of obesity.
Again, look at pictures of groups in candid settings and you'll notice similar levels of obesity.
But we have statistical surveys which can assert this without having to look at photos.
Even if I agree, you're citing this as a measure of general/overall health, so testosterone levels are not specifically implicated.
High testosterone levels in men are linked to much higher heart problems, a major cause of early death.
High testosterone levels in men are linked to much higher heart problems, a major cause of early death.
If health has declined and testosterone levels have declined then absent any other information I am going to assume that the decline in testosterone is at best uncorrelated with health. Now, maybe there is a reason to assume that lower testosterone levels are actually healthier but I'm going to trust my eyes for the time being.
By almost any measure, global health has improved and global testosterone levels have declined.
Absent any other information, you should therefore assume...
Absent any other information, you should therefore assume...
At the same time you are hiding information by taking the global average as the proper baseline for comparison. This is disingenuous here because the original study picked a US cohort. The factors that are responsible for global health indicators improving might be, at least in principle, cancelled out in the US.
Seems like global warming and higher atmospheric CO2 levels correlates well with the timeframes.
Also a strong inverse correlation with pirates.
Been yachting in the Arabian Sea recently?
It was a reference to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Pirat...
Note that the model does take the Arabian Sea into account.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Pirat...
Note that the model does take the Arabian Sea into account.
I know! And I was referring to the flying spaghetti monster's original liturgy being inaccurate!
https://www.spaghettimonster.org/about/open-letter/
https://www.spaghettimonster.org/about/open-letter/
> getting into physical fight was much more common than today
I distinctly remember the popularity of gang culture in North American west coast cities. Everybody were forming gangs based on ethnicity usually (but racial diversity isn't uncommon). This was the era of gangster rap, Tupac, Biggie Smalls, Ice Cube, DMX, Bone Thugs, Nas....all the classics...the lyrics are simply HARD compared to today.
I distinctly remember the popularity of gang culture in North American west coast cities. Everybody were forming gangs based on ethnicity usually (but racial diversity isn't uncommon). This was the era of gangster rap, Tupac, Biggie Smalls, Ice Cube, DMX, Bone Thugs, Nas....all the classics...the lyrics are simply HARD compared to today.
All the rappers were talking about slinging drugs. Today’a rappers are, or at least a huge chunk are, the people buying the drugs.
> When I was younger, in the late 90s, getting into physical fight was much more common than today
Testosterone is not simply and directly causing aggressiveness.
A lot of research shows that human behaviors are way more complex than that, and sometimes absolutely counterintuitive.
We are not baboons.
Testosterone is not simply and directly causing aggressiveness.
A lot of research shows that human behaviors are way more complex than that, and sometimes absolutely counterintuitive.
We are not baboons.
Recent studies has shown that exposure to flouride (which is found in toothpaste), is correlated with lower IQ scores. That might be a contributing factor.
[1] https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s...
[1] https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s...
"Due to the different study populations and areas, the conclusion that excessive fluoride causes loss of children’s IQ still lacks strong evidence."
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That's just a reflection of demographics vs municipal water availability.
Yes, that is a possibility. There is also this fairly extensive meta-analysis over a period of 20 years, that finds a "consistent and strong association between the exposure to fluoride and low IQ". [1]
There is, in other words, an undeniable correlation. The more interesting question is -- are there any safe levels of exposure, and what are the effects over time?
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12011-008-8204-x
There is, in other words, an undeniable correlation. The more interesting question is -- are there any safe levels of exposure, and what are the effects over time?
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12011-008-8204-x
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/water-fluoridation-reduces...
That rumor is false
That rumor is false
sergiotapia(1)
hasn't this been known or at least suspected since the 90s/00s? I recall seeing similar studies from that period
The study states the majority of the effect is for fairly predictable causes like age and obesity, but I found this interesting:
> After controlling for confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity—total testosterone was lower among men in the later (2011-2016) versus earlier (1999-2000) cycles (P < 0.001)
Excluding all those confounders, there's not much we're left with. Environmental toxins?
> After controlling for confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity—total testosterone was lower among men in the later (2011-2016) versus earlier (1999-2000) cycles (P < 0.001)
Excluding all those confounders, there's not much we're left with. Environmental toxins?
Could be something in the environment, something in our diet.
I'm curious if it's porn. Supposedly masturbation reduces testosterone levels. [1] Maybe men are just wanking more because of access to porn?
I'm curious if it's porn. Supposedly masturbation reduces testosterone levels. [1] Maybe men are just wanking more because of access to porn?
For some reason I can't edit my comment to add the link to the study.
This study shows a 45% spike in testosterone after 7 days of abstinence.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12659241/
This study shows a 45% spike in testosterone after 7 days of abstinence.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12659241/
I see this study referenced frequently, and it's always seemed dubious. Why would there be a spike at exactly 7 days of abstinence, before returning to baseline? It's possible that the measuring apparatus was improperly calibrated on that day. Has this study been reproduced?
Maybe nobody could make it past 7 days.
Perhaps it also causes a commensurate increase in androgen receptors.
Yeah there's a lot of non-religious people who are finding the advantages of abstaining from porn (/r/nofap and /r/pornfree) or trying to limit its use. They say the T boost is temporary, but the behavioral factors make it worth it. Like they're more apt to be social with women, go on dates, etc, if they don't just relieve themselves, they actually have motivation.
> Yeah there’s a lot of non-religious people who are finding the advantages of abstaining from porn (/r/nofap and /r/pornfree) or trying to limit its use. They say the T boost is temporary
The T boost from refraining from masturbation is disputed, and AFAIK no one has even asserted that there is one from refraining from porn, as such.
“Some folks online claim that refraining from masturbation makes them feel more manly, more masculine, more assertive, more dominant, and more attractive to females. They allege that this effect emerges from a supposed increase in testosterone when they stopped masturbating.
“These claims are often supported by reference to a very small, un-replicated study from China, which involved a very small sample of 10 males. Being interested in this study and how the analysis was conducted, colleagues have attempted to obtain the study data to verify, but have been unable to. But better research finds that testosterone isn’t as simple as these claims would have it.”
— https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2020...
“In other words, while there is indeed some research finding that sexual abstinence is linked to higher testosterone in men, the evidence is—at best—very mixed. Also, if you look to the overall trend in the data, it actually suggests that being sexually active in general increases testosterone, with the most consistent finding being that looking at porn enhances T.”
— https://www.lehmiller.com/blog/2020/1/24/can-abstaining-from...
The T boost from refraining from masturbation is disputed, and AFAIK no one has even asserted that there is one from refraining from porn, as such.
“Some folks online claim that refraining from masturbation makes them feel more manly, more masculine, more assertive, more dominant, and more attractive to females. They allege that this effect emerges from a supposed increase in testosterone when they stopped masturbating.
“These claims are often supported by reference to a very small, un-replicated study from China, which involved a very small sample of 10 males. Being interested in this study and how the analysis was conducted, colleagues have attempted to obtain the study data to verify, but have been unable to. But better research finds that testosterone isn’t as simple as these claims would have it.”
— https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2020...
“In other words, while there is indeed some research finding that sexual abstinence is linked to higher testosterone in men, the evidence is—at best—very mixed. Also, if you look to the overall trend in the data, it actually suggests that being sexually active in general increases testosterone, with the most consistent finding being that looking at porn enhances T.”
— https://www.lehmiller.com/blog/2020/1/24/can-abstaining-from...
Thanks for sharing. It sounds like the claim is dubious then.
Exactly. Abstaining from porn made me super horny and restless.
If you need to motivate yourself to hit on women, this is a positive.
If you need to do something intellectual -- work or play -- it's a sharp negative, though. Evangelists tend to gloss over this point.
If you need to motivate yourself to hit on women, this is a positive.
If you need to do something intellectual -- work or play -- it's a sharp negative, though. Evangelists tend to gloss over this point.
Actually as Joe Rogan is quick to point out, if you're confused about your feelings for a woman, or you're feeling tempted by someone who's not your partner. Rub one out and you'll be surprised at the clarity it brings.
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The funny thing is, if you hold the line longer (months) and have something else to pour yourself into the restlessness decreases and you're left with _focus_.
Mmm-hmm.
Let me guess -- if I nofap for months and eat less, it will also help with weight loss? Whenever a fad needs to be combined with a well-known active ingredient in order to be effective, it makes me suspicious that the fad isn't effective at all.
The constantly receding goalposts are another sign. With nofap, first it was "before an athletic competition," then it was "for a week," then it was "for a month," and now that a significant number of people have given that a try it's multiple months? Not a good look.
By this point I've gone from 30% to 90% sure this whole thing is just christian sex angst rebranded for the web.
Let me guess -- if I nofap for months and eat less, it will also help with weight loss? Whenever a fad needs to be combined with a well-known active ingredient in order to be effective, it makes me suspicious that the fad isn't effective at all.
The constantly receding goalposts are another sign. With nofap, first it was "before an athletic competition," then it was "for a week," then it was "for a month," and now that a significant number of people have given that a try it's multiple months? Not a good look.
By this point I've gone from 30% to 90% sure this whole thing is just christian sex angst rebranded for the web.
:shrug: Make of it what you will, I'm just providing my personal experience. I was celibate/nofap for 25 years (now married for 10).
Good lord man, 25 years. I feel like there should be category in the Nobel prizes for that. If I make it a week I feel like a boss.
With online porn and being alone, it's much harder to do that nowadays. If you told me that as a college kid that you didn't do it for 6 years in your teens, not even a single girl would believe you.
Its not christian sex angst, it's christians upset over the feminization of men. They cant cope with the new non hetero normative reality we find ourselves in, which is that men are increasingly turning to non binary forms of self identification without the pressure of gender roles.
I think this is a good trend because without the pressure to be masculine, the patriarchy's power is dismantled and we create a more equal, fair, and just society.
I think this is a good trend because without the pressure to be masculine, the patriarchy's power is dismantled and we create a more equal, fair, and just society.
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can we not link to toxic websites like Reddit?
I hate to tell you, but this website is functionally just a mini-reddit. And it exhibits as much toxicity as any semi-special-interest subreddit (perhaps even more, due to the many posts that are politically topical).
What's funny is I didn't even link to them, I just named the sub-reddits. I think Reddit has gone way downhill and far surpassed Eternal September (I refer to it as the new AOL), but that's largely the defaults and popular sub-reddits, I agree that niche sub-reddits are generally better and at least as likely to produce the same quality discussions you'd find here.
Is this study credible? I mean it was based on 28 men. Are the researchers and their institution, Hangzhou Normal College, legitimate in the field of medical research?
This has been known for awhile, but this spike doesn't persist. It quickly levels back down.
probably why the ProudBoy jerks swear to abstain from it.
This study is why the Proud Boys practice abstinence, yes.
I was thinking it is due to porn as well. The availability, fidelity, and variety of porn that can be called up with a few taps of the finger is unprecedented in all human history.
Just a hypothesis.
Just a hypothesis.
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Simple explanation: americans get less sleep today than they did 20 years ago.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-get-less-sleep-than-2...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-get-less-sleep-than-2...
Bingo. One aspect of this is sleep (quantity and quality). The drop in testosterone is likely multifactorial though: sleep, nutrition, movement, stress -> all contributors that have the potential to decrease testosterone levels and creat hormone imbalances.
Stress is also on the rise, especially among gen Z:
https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2020/report-o...
Which shouldn't be surprising given the quality of life a typical worker enjoys today vs in decades past when cost of living was much more in line with wages.
https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/stress/2020/report-o...
Which shouldn't be surprising given the quality of life a typical worker enjoys today vs in decades past when cost of living was much more in line with wages.
Also, having recently watched The Social Dilemma, social media might be stressing people out too.
I read a hypothesis that it's birth control going to waste water facilities, and then getting back into the drinking water supply. From what I read a charcoal filter lessens the effects - which I believe gets filtered through a normal refrigerator filter. Please verify this information first, it's all conjecture and hypothesis.
We don't directly recycle treated wastewater into drinking water much in the US. The closest you get is treated water being released into a river, and a city downstream uses it, there's a lot of dilution going on in-between. You'd also expect someone to notice it not affecting cities with water supplies that aren't downstream from wastewater treatment.
Birth control pill usage is slowly but inexorably declining as younger demographics start to favor IUDs more; IUDs were virtually unknown circa 2000 but today they're about equal in popularity. If true then we would expect the above trend to reverse within 20 years.
Modern IUDs release hormones.
They release progestin, not estrogen. And even then they seem to release a 3-7x lower volume of hormones per day than pills.
I also would ask for a source on the relative popularity of the hormonal IUDs vs the non-hormonal copper ones; I haven't seen any source provide that sort of breakdown.
I also would ask for a source on the relative popularity of the hormonal IUDs vs the non-hormonal copper ones; I haven't seen any source provide that sort of breakdown.
Progestins suppress testosterone too. I don't have stats but I believe hormonal IUDs are the most popular form nowadays.
Copper IUDs still exist for several reasons and they work pretty well without hormones.
Birth control pills these days are a fraction of what they were back in say the 50's.
Women on HRT take 20,000 times the estrogen that is found in a estrogen birth control for example.
Women on HRT take 20,000 times the estrogen that is found in a estrogen birth control for example.
Possibilities:
- stress/anxiety/depression
- sleep deprivation/disruption
- high-speed internet access (—> overuse of porn)
- stress/anxiety/depression
- sleep deprivation/disruption
- high-speed internet access (—> overuse of porn)
Another possibility:
- Internet access (and better telecommunications in general) means you're competing with the whole world. Every day you see many people who are more successful than you, which lowers your perception of your own social status. Testosterone is believed to increase status-seeking behavior. If such behavior persistently fails, maybe testosterone production is reduced to avoid pointless risk.
- Internet access (and better telecommunications in general) means you're competing with the whole world. Every day you see many people who are more successful than you, which lowers your perception of your own social status. Testosterone is believed to increase status-seeking behavior. If such behavior persistently fails, maybe testosterone production is reduced to avoid pointless risk.
That's an interesting hypothesis. I do feel that as the amount of content online increases, it becomes harder and harder to feel like any output you have matters. Be it writing a blog or open source software, there's competition everywhere. It's also harder to make it a say, a musician, when you consider the amount of music that everyone can access on Spotify for example. Any amount of creative output that someone can output is somewhat diluted.
I find it much harder to motivate myself to produce anything than I did 10 years ago. I might just be older, but I do think that content dilution has something to do with it as well. How do you free yourself from that?
I find it much harder to motivate myself to produce anything than I did 10 years ago. I might just be older, but I do think that content dilution has something to do with it as well. How do you free yourself from that?
I struggle with similar feelings as an aging amateur musician, particularly in genres like jazz where it sometimes feels like there is almost no point putting something out there unless it's world-class technically... which I'll never be.
Something I realized recently - and admittedly this hasn't changed any behaviors for me yet, but maybe it will help you - is that a lot of the music I listen to is objectively not the best in the world in terms of technical skill, originality, popularity, etc. and yet I enjoy and appreciate it anyway. So maybe it's OK for me to make music that's also not the best in the world - someone might find it and like it anyway. And if not, no harm!
Something I realized recently - and admittedly this hasn't changed any behaviors for me yet, but maybe it will help you - is that a lot of the music I listen to is objectively not the best in the world in terms of technical skill, originality, popularity, etc. and yet I enjoy and appreciate it anyway. So maybe it's OK for me to make music that's also not the best in the world - someone might find it and like it anyway. And if not, no harm!
Go offline I suppose? Talk more openly to people in real-life, to build a real-life community of like-minded people? Easier said than done, I know.
But we have kind of inadvertently let the internet shape our lives. There is nothing stopping us from living like it is the 80s + using the internet only where it makes our lives actually better.
But we have kind of inadvertently let the internet shape our lives. There is nothing stopping us from living like it is the 80s + using the internet only where it makes our lives actually better.
That might be especially difficult right now with the government mandating that people shouldn't leave home.
i personally chime in my antidote towards stress and sleep deprivation. a year after significant reduced stress and better sleep hygeine I'm seeing better test levels and performance in the gym.
zanethomas(3)
> sleep deprivation/disruption
Add to that an extremely unhealthy work trend. 50 years ago, an ordinary factory employee could feed on a regular full time wage a wife that could stay home, two kids, have a simple house, health insurance and go on a vacation once a year.
Today? Two jobs (and/or extreme overtime) for both people to make rent, home ownership rates dropped because even simple homes run up for well over a million dollars, 2008ff/corona have caused an immense wage depression, and people regularly go to gofundme for medical issues or go bankrupt.
Add to that: highly processed, unhealthy food is way cheaper than fresh, selfmade food, and people living paycheck to paycheck can't afford bulk purchases or Whole Foods. The effect of food on health is more than sufficiently documented.
That is an immense mental toll, and not just in the US but worldwide.
Add to that an extremely unhealthy work trend. 50 years ago, an ordinary factory employee could feed on a regular full time wage a wife that could stay home, two kids, have a simple house, health insurance and go on a vacation once a year.
Today? Two jobs (and/or extreme overtime) for both people to make rent, home ownership rates dropped because even simple homes run up for well over a million dollars, 2008ff/corona have caused an immense wage depression, and people regularly go to gofundme for medical issues or go bankrupt.
Add to that: highly processed, unhealthy food is way cheaper than fresh, selfmade food, and people living paycheck to paycheck can't afford bulk purchases or Whole Foods. The effect of food on health is more than sufficiently documented.
That is an immense mental toll, and not just in the US but worldwide.
Diminishing role of strength and aggression as a factor in reproductive success?
Definitely not a worldwide phenomenon.
Excluding all confounders in a study like this is statistical error. You cannot do that stuff mathematically with such noisy data.
Similar mistakes happen when someone tries to show meat is cancerous or increases all cause mortality.
Similar mistakes happen when someone tries to show meat is cancerous or increases all cause mortality.
traces of plasticzers, which can act as endocrine disruptors, are found basically everywhere in modern civilization
Plastics?
This is a common theory.
https://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics...
time spent outdoors?
Low vitamin D (i.e. low sun exposure), has been shown to reduce testosterone levels:
> Compared to baseline values, a significant increase in total testosterone levels (from 10.7 ± 3.9 nmol/l to 13.4 ± 4.7 nmol/l; p < 0.001), bioactive testosterone (from 5.21 ± 1.87 nmol/l to 6.25 ± 2.01 nmol/l; p = 0.001), and free testosterone levels (from 0.222 ± 0.080 nmol/l to 0.267 ± 0.087 nmol/l; p = 0.001) were observed in the vitamin D supplemented group. By contrast, there was no significant change in any testosterone measure in the placebo group. Our results suggest that vitamin D supplementation might increase testosterone levels. Further randomized controlled trials are warranted to confirm this hypothesis.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21154195/
> Compared to baseline values, a significant increase in total testosterone levels (from 10.7 ± 3.9 nmol/l to 13.4 ± 4.7 nmol/l; p < 0.001), bioactive testosterone (from 5.21 ± 1.87 nmol/l to 6.25 ± 2.01 nmol/l; p = 0.001), and free testosterone levels (from 0.222 ± 0.080 nmol/l to 0.267 ± 0.087 nmol/l; p = 0.001) were observed in the vitamin D supplemented group. By contrast, there was no significant change in any testosterone measure in the placebo group. Our results suggest that vitamin D supplementation might increase testosterone levels. Further randomized controlled trials are warranted to confirm this hypothesis.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21154195/
Spending time behind a screen more than with people. Compounded with more desk jobs too.
There's apparently also a slight decrease in body temperature during the 20th century (not sure if it's men only or all people)
Related?
Related?
I believe that the reduction in temperature is generally attributed to lower levels of inflammation, which in turn is likely caused by reduced exposure to disease
Wouldn't a decrease in temperature result in more testosterone? Since sperm production is optimal at 35C.
[deleted]
> Environmental toxins?
Almost. It's the plastics.
Almost. It's the plastics.
There's the cellular modem constantly in our pockets, inches from the gonads responsible for producing testosterone.
Is 'wealth' one of the confounding factors they controlled for? In inflation-adjusted terms, most US workers saw a reduction in net wages after necessary expenses over this ten year period.
That relative reduction in wages happened over the same time living standards skyrocketed (turns out if you offshore everything the newly poor people can afford slightly better material conditions because everything is so much cheaper) so you're gonna have a hell of a time separating the effects.
Yes. I ask because relative reduction in wages would decrease access to foods with a high density of unprocessed and non-fortified nutrients, regardless of the quality of the non-edible materials in their life. When combined with the tendency of US food to decrease in total non-fortified nutrient value over time, it could influencing the human body's hormone production.
Why the downvotes? There's been a skyrocketing increase in consumption of junk food in low-wage worker class who often can't find the time to cook and cannot afford more expensive healthy food.
lower real income for working class.
plastics and estrogen similar molecules they let off
Why does it have to be toxins? What about diet?
would need to be dietary changes that don't also change BMI, since that was controlled for.
Which I think is a bit of a gaping hole.
As a male who has been around 70kg for all of my adult life, I have consumed many different "diets". All from eating whole foods to eating more processed foods and easy packaged meals/junk food, all not impacting my BMI.
As a male who has been around 70kg for all of my adult life, I have consumed many different "diets". All from eating whole foods to eating more processed foods and easy packaged meals/junk food, all not impacting my BMI.
I wonder if soil depletion of minerals and vitamins due to over farming couldn't also be a suspect here. It's a problem I haven't heard much about lately.
Genetic degradation of the human race?
I don't know why this was voted down. We've been performing in vitro fertilisation en masse since the 1980s. All of a sudden, men with non-motile sperm are fathering children.
So as a single cause it's not that massive, but at 1% of all births, the effects will soon stack up.
So as a single cause it's not that massive, but at 1% of all births, the effects will soon stack up.
Also that reducing infant mortality rate and other early death rates means the weak ones live long enough to breed. Unlike IVF, this just stalls genetics. IVF actively selects for fertility issues.
How about natural selection putting men with physical traits like body hair at a disadvantage due to modern beauty standards?
child rearing and geopolitcal conflict i.e War and conflict.
whole point of testosterone, being tad reductionist here, is, atleast in the wild, to make you alpha male - agressiveness to defend.
and if you look at 1900s, it was mired with geopolitial conflict, probably causing men to lead universally aggressive life.
now to post 1990s, things have dramitcally changed.
whole point of testosterone, being tad reductionist here, is, atleast in the wild, to make you alpha male - agressiveness to defend.
and if you look at 1900s, it was mired with geopolitial conflict, probably causing men to lead universally aggressive life.
now to post 1990s, things have dramitcally changed.
What if the geopolitical climate is a result of testosterone levels in the population?
That’s where you get into interesting territory. It’s not a wild suggestion, is it?
this is where you get into the conversation about chicken and egg.
my hypothesis was geoclimate could have led to increased level of testosterone in Men, not other way around.
What you asked will lead us to ask the the first origin of increased T
If due to environmental toxins (say, hormonally active “forever chemicals,” plastics, etc), my guess is you’d see the deleterious effects first in women. Women also make (and need) testosterone, just at much lower levels than men, so they have much less to lose. There’s research going back 30 years on the efficacy of low dose TRT in women to treat all kinds of things that tend to hit women in their late thirties on (when natural testosterone has been declining for 15-20 years); I’m on mobile now, but what I recall most from a review paper was the efficacy in treating fibromyalgia pain. The lack of continued research on this seems to be almost entirely due to social pressure. (People lose their minds when you talk about women and testosterone, or men and estrogen.)
It’s hard not to wonder if environmental toxins affecting the testosterone levels of men are also contributing to the rise of health issues in women, especially autoimmune conditions, fibromyalgia/CFS, obesity, depression, etc.
In other words, women might be the canaries in the coal mine for systemic problems arising from environmental endocrine disruptors.
It’s hard not to wonder if environmental toxins affecting the testosterone levels of men are also contributing to the rise of health issues in women, especially autoimmune conditions, fibromyalgia/CFS, obesity, depression, etc.
In other words, women might be the canaries in the coal mine for systemic problems arising from environmental endocrine disruptors.
Related, girls (women?) are starting their periods about 5 years sooner compared to 100 years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menarche#Changes_in_time_of_av...
Per Wikipedia, and other sources I’ve read, it seems heavily correlated with BMI.
Which…makes a naïve sort of evolutionary sense. You need some percentage of body fat for your body to kick into reproduction mode.
Which…makes a naïve sort of evolutionary sense. You need some percentage of body fat for your body to kick into reproduction mode.
This has to do more with better nutrition and comfort than anything else.
While it's true that estrogen-like compounds may also have an effect, it takes calories to ovulate and to menstruate.
While it's true that estrogen-like compounds may also have an effect, it takes calories to ovulate and to menstruate.
Plastics and what not feel like easy targets, but I would bet this is primarily BMI. The paper seems to conclude that BMI is the big part.
> Elevated BMI was associated with reduced total testosterone levels (P < .0001), with the mean BMI increasing from 25.83 in 1999-2000, to 27.96 in 2015-2016 (P = 0.0006).
They do say: > Lokeshwar noted that even men with a normal BMI (18.5-24.9) had declining total testosterone levels (P < .05) during the same time frames.
However the range of 18.5-24.9 is wider than the mean increase that they think is the most noteworthy independent variable. It's fully possible that within the BMI band of 18.5-24.9, average BMI nonetheless increased and is the primary driver. Note that the effect size over time is muuuuch more significant when not controlling for binned BMI.
That doesn't mean whatever environmental shit you're not fond of is safe of course. Heck, in some roundabout way it may even be contributing to obesity, possibly even through other hormonal changes. Wouldn't be my first guess though.
> Elevated BMI was associated with reduced total testosterone levels (P < .0001), with the mean BMI increasing from 25.83 in 1999-2000, to 27.96 in 2015-2016 (P = 0.0006).
They do say: > Lokeshwar noted that even men with a normal BMI (18.5-24.9) had declining total testosterone levels (P < .05) during the same time frames.
However the range of 18.5-24.9 is wider than the mean increase that they think is the most noteworthy independent variable. It's fully possible that within the BMI band of 18.5-24.9, average BMI nonetheless increased and is the primary driver. Note that the effect size over time is muuuuch more significant when not controlling for binned BMI.
That doesn't mean whatever environmental shit you're not fond of is safe of course. Heck, in some roundabout way it may even be contributing to obesity, possibly even through other hormonal changes. Wouldn't be my first guess though.
Completely agree about BMI ranges potentially being too wide.
I just checked Fitbit and was surprised to see I’m now in the “ideal” range. I have man boobs and a muffin top. While I’m rarely the fattest person around anymore, I’m very clearly still overweight.
It’s rare enough to see men that aren’t visibly overweight that it feels like a real exception when I do.
I suspect there are _lots_ of fat men with an “ideal” BMI 18.5-24.9.
I just checked Fitbit and was surprised to see I’m now in the “ideal” range. I have man boobs and a muffin top. While I’m rarely the fattest person around anymore, I’m very clearly still overweight.
It’s rare enough to see men that aren’t visibly overweight that it feels like a real exception when I do.
I suspect there are _lots_ of fat men with an “ideal” BMI 18.5-24.9.
> I just checked Fitbit and was surprised to see I’m now in the “ideal” range. I have man boobs and a muffin top. While I’m rarely the fattest person around anymore, I’m very clearly still overweight.
In college a classmate used the term "skinny fat" to describe himself, same body type you describe. He was within the healthy weight range for his height and frame, but because of poor diet and exercise (primarily exercise) he had a rather high body fat percentage. It's easy to hit that point if you have a halfway decent diet (at least by calorie count) but a sedentary lifestyle (like us at the time, and perhaps more now, living on our computers playing video games and programming). The rest of us were just "fat fat" since our diets (especially sodas, he never drank any and some of us were only hydrated because of them) were much worse than his and we were similarly sedentary.
In college a classmate used the term "skinny fat" to describe himself, same body type you describe. He was within the healthy weight range for his height and frame, but because of poor diet and exercise (primarily exercise) he had a rather high body fat percentage. It's easy to hit that point if you have a halfway decent diet (at least by calorie count) but a sedentary lifestyle (like us at the time, and perhaps more now, living on our computers playing video games and programming). The rest of us were just "fat fat" since our diets (especially sodas, he never drank any and some of us were only hydrated because of them) were much worse than his and we were similarly sedentary.
Also, the "muffin top" only really goes away at like 15% body fat or lower. I had a small muffin top back in college with an incredibly active lifestyle (lots of walks all the time) and a BMI of 21.8 (well into the 'ideal' range)
I've been from 10% to 25% body fat and an confirm 15% is about right for the muffin top, and 20% body fat at the cutoff for a healthy level.
BMI is only so good of a measure. A bodybuilder would be labelled as morbidly obese.
The BMI recommendations are not supposed to be based on beauty standards it's supposed to be based on health outcomes.
Body fat percentage is the more sensitive and specific indicator for health outcomes, though.
I realize not everyone has access to the equipment necessary to get a good BF% measurement (handheld devices and scales are garbage – you need a laboratory). However, measuring circumference around the waist at about the height of the bellybutton accomplishes approximately the same thing. (This will not be your pants size.) Above 37 or 38, things get dicey.
I'm happy to dig up references if you're curious about the details.
I realize not everyone has access to the equipment necessary to get a good BF% measurement (handheld devices and scales are garbage – you need a laboratory). However, measuring circumference around the waist at about the height of the bellybutton accomplishes approximately the same thing. (This will not be your pants size.) Above 37 or 38, things get dicey.
I'm happy to dig up references if you're curious about the details.
No need to dig up references, I own a book on this topic. Thanks for the offer though.
Sorry, I looked back at the comment chain and I think I replied to the wrong one!
At 6'0", 215 lbs, and 10% body fat (via DEXA scans) I have a BMI of 29.2 - on the high end of "overweight" - almost "obese". I'm a fit, but not especially big, casual weightlifter with a desk job.
BMI is not really useful to weightlifters. You're much better look at your fat % in that case IMO.
One other interesting factor: BMI is a rough measure with substantial room for error. Everyone likes to criticize BMI because a lean athlete can show up as "overweight" due to muscle, but the opposite is also true. If you have a lot less muscle then increased fat can show up as "normal".
I would hazard a guess that there are a lot more people with less lean muscle tissue than the 1970s, so BMI can understate how fat people are.
I would hazard a guess that there are a lot more people with less lean muscle tissue than the 1970s, so BMI can understate how fat people are.
BMI is great. But, not for individuals. If you average BMI, you get great cheap population measurw
But didn't the study control for BMI?
control is a weird term. I don't have the paper to validate, but I'd guess by control they meant they verified the effect was visible within BMI bands based on the wording of the article.
Dr. Philip Zimbardo wrote a book called "Man, Interrupted" that addresses this topic to some degree. One factor that he mentioned was the advent of high-speed internet, supporting both video games (virtual achievement) and pornography (virtual gratification).
AOL announced its plans for high-speed DSL internet in January of 1999 -- the same year as the beginning of the study period.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wV1z7-...
AOL announced its plans for high-speed DSL internet in January of 1999 -- the same year as the beginning of the study period.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wV1z7-...
Microplastics in most water supplies, hormones in most meats, and the western diet in general being high in sugars and simple carbohydrates seem to me to be the most likely culprits. It's also possible that other sources of pollution, for example pesticides, pay a role in it but that's something I know less about.
Good luck getting anything done about the ubiquity of endocrine disrupters in our food and water supply though. The lack of an acute effect and the difficulty in even assigning causality for something like this makes regulatory action pretty difficult.
Good luck getting anything done about the ubiquity of endocrine disrupters in our food and water supply though. The lack of an acute effect and the difficulty in even assigning causality for something like this makes regulatory action pretty difficult.
I'm 25.
Had a test 6 months ago out of curiosity, results came back at under 150. Doctor told me it had to have been a dud and had another test which resulted in around 300.
Results are still significantly below average but the Doctor advised I don't purse TRT or anything as I don't have any adverse symptoms.
I eat healthy, work out fairly regularly and get a fair bit of sun. I often wonder how different my muscle density / focus / sex drive would be at average T levels.
Had a test 6 months ago out of curiosity, results came back at under 150. Doctor told me it had to have been a dud and had another test which resulted in around 300.
Results are still significantly below average but the Doctor advised I don't purse TRT or anything as I don't have any adverse symptoms.
I eat healthy, work out fairly regularly and get a fair bit of sun. I often wonder how different my muscle density / focus / sex drive would be at average T levels.
For what it is worth - I am in my 30s, but not really having a healthy lifestyle. Had test of about 250 (one of the labs I done in search of getting motivation back). Doc put me on trt. In 4 month we dialed it to about 900-1000 stable. Had no noticable improvements in any areas (except morning wood like I am teenager again). Later there were some side effects and I discontinued it. Again, no noticable differences.
For what it is worth, it appears that my body seems to need just that much of test.
For what it is worth, it appears that my body seems to need just that much of test.
Some people have more receptors and/or are more sensitive to certain things.
Higher testosterone leads to more risk taking and other adverse behaviors, as well as increased blood pressure and, anecdotally, "increased aging." I believe it has something to do with collagen synthesis.
You absolutely made the right decision to come off TRT.
Higher testosterone leads to more risk taking and other adverse behaviors, as well as increased blood pressure and, anecdotally, "increased aging." I believe it has something to do with collagen synthesis.
You absolutely made the right decision to come off TRT.
[deleted]
I’m in my late 20s. Here I am trying to actively lower my testosterone to reduce my sex drive. I am taking vitex (a.k.a chaste tree) and it’s working wonderfully. I’ve noticed increased concentration, too. I like it a lot, especially since I don’t care for having children and thus don’t have a biological need for sexual thoughts/behaviors. It’s no wonder monks use this stuff!
For what it’s worth, I’m 32 and have been on testosterone supplementation since I was about your age. My case is a little different as it was probably caused by a brain injury, but I would advise you to at least try it out for a few weeks.
The difference in how I feel on vs. off testosterone is pretty astounding. I’m in a better mood, have vastly more energy and ambition, and actually have a sex drive.
If you do try it go straight for the injections - a lot of guys don’t fee right on the gel. I had estrogen issues when I was on it, personally.
The difference in how I feel on vs. off testosterone is pretty astounding. I’m in a better mood, have vastly more energy and ambition, and actually have a sex drive.
If you do try it go straight for the injections - a lot of guys don’t fee right on the gel. I had estrogen issues when I was on it, personally.
How do you organise a test? Do you have to go see your doc just to ask and then go back again for the test?
Not sure what country you live in but if it's a GP, they write you a prescription and you go to a lab.
Many endocrinologists have blood draw facilities within the practice.
Either way you have to go back to interpret the results and, if appropriate, receive the prescription.
Many endocrinologists have blood draw facilities within the practice.
Either way you have to go back to interpret the results and, if appropriate, receive the prescription.
https://www.ihmc.us/stemtalk/episode-103/
Listen to that and maybe insist on TRT
Listen to that and maybe insist on TRT
This is just a foul, foul recommendation
Don't play with your endocrine system people, let alone with testosterone which will make you dependent on it for the rest of your life
Don't play with your endocrine system people, let alone with testosterone which will make you dependent on it for the rest of your life
I wonder if hormones will ever become widely available for personal use, or if we will just accept a changing hormonal landscape for men and woman. I doubt any of the underlying causes of "obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins." will actually be fixed
It's trivially easy to find a doctor willing to sell you testosterone replacement therapy these days. There are plenty of unscrupulous doctors who will find an excuse to do it, although they usually require you to buy the testosterone through their store.
It's a total racket.
Be warned: Going on TRT should be considered a one-way street. Once you start adding exogenous testosterone to your system, your body's natural production will decrease. It doesn't take long for your body's natural production to virtual stop completely, making you dependent on TRT for the rest of your life.
There are hypothetically ways to try to counter this shutdown, but it's far from guaranteed. Many people who start and then stop TRT end up with lower levels than when they started, even with the countermeasures in place.
No man should experiment with testosterone unless they're ready to continue using it for the rest of their life. I know plenty of people who thought they were getting a leg up in their 30s by getting on TRT, who now regret having to constantly buy and maintain TRT supplies and carry it around whenever they travel. The initial euphoric effects of TRT will wane over time, too.
It's a total racket.
Be warned: Going on TRT should be considered a one-way street. Once you start adding exogenous testosterone to your system, your body's natural production will decrease. It doesn't take long for your body's natural production to virtual stop completely, making you dependent on TRT for the rest of your life.
There are hypothetically ways to try to counter this shutdown, but it's far from guaranteed. Many people who start and then stop TRT end up with lower levels than when they started, even with the countermeasures in place.
No man should experiment with testosterone unless they're ready to continue using it for the rest of their life. I know plenty of people who thought they were getting a leg up in their 30s by getting on TRT, who now regret having to constantly buy and maintain TRT supplies and carry it around whenever they travel. The initial euphoric effects of TRT will wane over time, too.
+1 for this warning. My scores are on the low end of average (mid 400s). Not low enough to warrant corrective T therapy (200s), but enough to wonder if the 600-700 range might mean a big change in quality of life.
I was pretty adamant about giving it a shot, and consulted with an endocrinologist who said the same thing ("it's not low enough to introduce what would become a life sentence of treatment"). After much stubborn research trying to find a legitimate second opinion[1], I finally conceded that he was right.
I'm all for biohacking, but the one-way/ratcheting nature of T therapy specifically should make it an endeavor of last resort.
[1] I say legitimate because you can effortlessly find someone who will agree that you and everyone needs a T boost, and will write you an Rx on the spot if you have the cash. An it will work. It's not that it's a scam, or particularly deadly. The benefits are just very overplayed compared to their permanence, which is downplayed.
I was pretty adamant about giving it a shot, and consulted with an endocrinologist who said the same thing ("it's not low enough to introduce what would become a life sentence of treatment"). After much stubborn research trying to find a legitimate second opinion[1], I finally conceded that he was right.
I'm all for biohacking, but the one-way/ratcheting nature of T therapy specifically should make it an endeavor of last resort.
[1] I say legitimate because you can effortlessly find someone who will agree that you and everyone needs a T boost, and will write you an Rx on the spot if you have the cash. An it will work. It's not that it's a scam, or particularly deadly. The benefits are just very overplayed compared to their permanence, which is downplayed.
> The benefits are just very overplayed compared to their permanence, which is downplayed.
The testosterone hype is out of control.
The scariest part is that many people are skipping straight to TRT instead of trying to identify underlying causes of low testosterone. For most people, simple lifestyle and diet changes can make a dramatic difference.
Many people also overestimate the benefits of increased testosterone. This is doubly challenging because sudden testosterone increases can feel quite good for a short while, but the effects will subside as your body acclimates to the higher levels. When the initial effects wear off, many patients start asking for higher doses or looking to steroid cycles to augment the testosterone.
It's also important to note that testosterone isn't an isolated hormone system within your body. TRT will alter a number of related hormones with various effects that aren't well-studied. Exogenous testosterone can't match your body's natural cycles, either. A person might actually feel better with a natural testosterone level of 400-500 (actually totally normal and quite common) than a TRT-driven level of 600-700 due to these effects.
The testosterone hype is out of control.
The scariest part is that many people are skipping straight to TRT instead of trying to identify underlying causes of low testosterone. For most people, simple lifestyle and diet changes can make a dramatic difference.
Many people also overestimate the benefits of increased testosterone. This is doubly challenging because sudden testosterone increases can feel quite good for a short while, but the effects will subside as your body acclimates to the higher levels. When the initial effects wear off, many patients start asking for higher doses or looking to steroid cycles to augment the testosterone.
It's also important to note that testosterone isn't an isolated hormone system within your body. TRT will alter a number of related hormones with various effects that aren't well-studied. Exogenous testosterone can't match your body's natural cycles, either. A person might actually feel better with a natural testosterone level of 400-500 (actually totally normal and quite common) than a TRT-driven level of 600-700 due to these effects.
> The scariest part is that many people are skipping straight to TRT instead of trying to identify underlying causes of low testosterone. For most people, simple lifestyle and diet changes can make a dramatic difference.
Yep. This was an admission I had to make to myself: it's a bit ridiculous to gripe about low T while 50lbs overweight, working a sedentary desk job, and subsisting mostly on beer and snacks. There's a strong argument to be made that my T wouldn't be so low if I had my shit together.
Yep. This was an admission I had to make to myself: it's a bit ridiculous to gripe about low T while 50lbs overweight, working a sedentary desk job, and subsisting mostly on beer and snacks. There's a strong argument to be made that my T wouldn't be so low if I had my shit together.
But getting a shot is way less tedious than changing life style.
For you that makes sense, but don’t scare off people that legitimately need it. My biggest regret in life isn’t not buying enough Bitcoin, but not going on testosterone replacement sooner. Without it I basically have no energy, and that’s how I lived out high school and college.
I would ask about clomid instead. It's usually prescribed for women, but it works for men too. It's kind of the inverse of TRT, it's one of drugs you can use to get back to baseline after abusing steroids or TRT.
Women already get to play with their hormones without a prescription, but for some reason we make it really difficult for men to safely adjust their hormone levels. There's a lot of misconceptions about testosterone and how it can be used to benefit lots of men. If you go into any doctor and they have tour testosterone tested, they probably won't give you TRT unless your T is below the low-bound of "normal", but being on the low-bound means you're not at your optimal. There's also lots of scare material about TRT out there for people who don't want to body build; supposedly you're guaranteed to have cardiovascular issues, shrunken testicles, 'roid rage, and so forth. If you keep your T at its optimal level but not going significantly past that, the chances of serious issues are minimal.
TRT aside, young people need to get their vitamin D, get exercise, eat little to no refined sugar, filter their water, and be allowed to co-mingle; when males and females are separated for long periods of time, testosterone decreases even more.
TRT aside, young people need to get their vitamin D, get exercise, eat little to no refined sugar, filter their water, and be allowed to co-mingle; when males and females are separated for long periods of time, testosterone decreases even more.
Even at replacement levels you'll shut down your natural production and risk never being able to naturally produce your own T. Needing to do intramuscular injections for the rest of your entire life is usually not a consolation prize people want to sign up for. Plus, in the U.S., should someone lose their health insurance and not be able to afford exogenous testosterone anymore they'd be in a pretty awful situation.
Also you'll likely end up infertile.
Also you'll likely end up infertile.
Yes, the downsides of TRT are numerous, but rarely discussed online.
It's not as simple as "experimenting" with TRT. Exogenous testosterone will begin diminishing your natural testosterone production immediately. In theory there are ways to counteract this, but in practice it's not guaranteed that someone can ever discontinue TRT once they've started. Even those who rebound may not return to their original, pre-TRT levels.
Testosterone is also interconnected with other hormone systems, which will also be disrupted by TRT. For many, TRT turns into a game of adjusting various medications up or down to try to get back to how they felt pre-TRT.
It's not as simple as "experimenting" with TRT. Exogenous testosterone will begin diminishing your natural testosterone production immediately. In theory there are ways to counteract this, but in practice it's not guaranteed that someone can ever discontinue TRT once they've started. Even those who rebound may not return to their original, pre-TRT levels.
Testosterone is also interconnected with other hormone systems, which will also be disrupted by TRT. For many, TRT turns into a game of adjusting various medications up or down to try to get back to how they felt pre-TRT.
Generally speaking, if your testicles don’t shrink, your production stays the same right? That’s what I’ve seen people do; inject testosterone until they notice shrinkage, then stop.
> Generally speaking, if your testicles don’t shrink, your production stays the same right?
No, absolutely not.
The size of your testicles is in no way indicative of your testosterone production.
While a shorter period of use generally has a higher chance of your natural production restarting after ceasing exogenous testosterone, your natural production of testosterone shuts down immediately with the introduction of exogenous testosterone.
No, absolutely not.
The size of your testicles is in no way indicative of your testosterone production.
While a shorter period of use generally has a higher chance of your natural production restarting after ceasing exogenous testosterone, your natural production of testosterone shuts down immediately with the introduction of exogenous testosterone.
I’m sensing a very strong bias against testosterone use here.
Testicle shrinkage is unarguable a side effect of exogenous supplementation. How is that not a good marker for your production shutdown? If there’s a good explanation, you’re not being very clear about it at all.
Testicle shrinkage is unarguable a side effect of exogenous supplementation. How is that not a good marker for your production shutdown? If there’s a good explanation, you’re not being very clear about it at all.
I'd note that hormones for women in birth control often come with some pretty heavy side effects that a lot of women aren't effectively prepared for or warned of in the mental health space.
Just adjusting one's hormone profile to hit some level you have in mind is not as easy as you imply.
Just adjusting one's hormone profile to hit some level you have in mind is not as easy as you imply.
[deleted]
> Women already get to play with their hormones without a prescription
I don’t think that’s true. Even birthcontrol requires a prescription.
I don’t think that’s true. Even birthcontrol requires a prescription.
In some places you can ask your pharmacist to write up a prescription for birth control without even consulting your doctor.
I know this because I live somewhere where this is the case.
I know this because I live somewhere where this is the case.
What are the optimal testosterone levels?
I’m not sure about optimal, but normal depends on age. 600 ng/dL would be a reasonable average for a normal level.
https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Int...
https://www.mayocliniclabs.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Int...
> filter their water
what kind of filtering?
what kind of filtering?
Reverse osmosis and carbon filtration: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis#Drinking_wat...
> but for some reason we make it really difficult for men to safely adjust their hormone levels
Because in men you can't.
Because in men you can't.
[deleted]
As a transgender person, I also feel that this practice will be (or at least should be) common in the future.
My estrogen levels were too low for a while and this caused me all kinds of side effects. My endocrinologist simply increased my dose. Then we noticed that my testosterone levels were too low, so we reduced the dose and got rid of the testosterone blockers.
After a while we noticed that my levels fluctuated too much during the day. So we switched from pills to injections (which create curves that last a week instead of 24 hours).
This solved my brain fog problems, made it easier for me to fall asleep at night, brought me back to the energy levels I had in my early twenties, etc.
It made me realize how dependent we are on stable hormone levels. I think many people would benefit from hormone therapy or at least annual lab checks.
My estrogen levels were too low for a while and this caused me all kinds of side effects. My endocrinologist simply increased my dose. Then we noticed that my testosterone levels were too low, so we reduced the dose and got rid of the testosterone blockers.
After a while we noticed that my levels fluctuated too much during the day. So we switched from pills to injections (which create curves that last a week instead of 24 hours).
This solved my brain fog problems, made it easier for me to fall asleep at night, brought me back to the energy levels I had in my early twenties, etc.
It made me realize how dependent we are on stable hormone levels. I think many people would benefit from hormone therapy or at least annual lab checks.
Cisgender male here, but, uh, let’s say enhanced with a little more testosterone.
Tanking your estrogen levels, or having them too high, suuuuuuucks. And the surprise to me was having estrogen come in too low from taking too much aromatase inhibitors. The mood, skin, and libido changes are awful.
Tanking your estrogen levels, or having them too high, suuuuuuucks. And the surprise to me was having estrogen come in too low from taking too much aromatase inhibitors. The mood, skin, and libido changes are awful.
>Tanking your estrogen levels, or having them too high, suuuuuuucks.
Out of curiosity, what does it feel like?
Out of curiosity, what does it feel like?
It did not take much effort on my part to get on TRT with my primary care physician. Less than 200 ng/dl free testosterone and another test to make sure it wasn't a bigger issue. Once I started within a couple month I was amazed at how much better I felt than I ever had. Even my 20s. Like vitamin D people need more than you would think and guidelines are too conservative. I could have probably had fewer issue if they would have just juiced me up with this in highschool. Rather than just let me be chronically exhausted.
The guidelines say that people like yourself need more testosterone... you got more and it works... so you've concluded the guidelines are too conservative? That doesn't follow.
There's a TRT place 5 minutes from my house. The google reviews make it sound like people are getting the results they want.
People cite activity declining, but really we've been plenty sedentary for all those decades since we eliminated electric public transit in most American cities in the 1950s-60s. Some people walk 20 feet to their car, 200 feet to the elevator, 20 feet to the cubicle, then end the day back at home without scarcely moving 1000 feet by their own leg. That isn't new between 1999 and today. People spend all day inside watching TV or playing video games rather than playing outside, that too isn't new. If anything, more people are biking, hiking, and running outside than they were 20 years ago.
Another potential factor that I think may be a culprit is sleep. Americans sleep less today than 20 years ago:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-get-less-sleep-than-2...
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/28/7736227...
What is driving this? Well, it could be our addiction to staring at a phone screen for hours at a time in total silence, unmoving. It's probably a combination of things, like the fact that americans are working more hours than they were 10 years ago and now have to sacrifice a good nights sleep to get all their personal business done when they aren't working:
https://www.businessinsider.com/american-work-habits-culture...
Another potential factor that I think may be a culprit is sleep. Americans sleep less today than 20 years ago:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-get-less-sleep-than-2...
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/10/28/7736227...
What is driving this? Well, it could be our addiction to staring at a phone screen for hours at a time in total silence, unmoving. It's probably a combination of things, like the fact that americans are working more hours than they were 10 years ago and now have to sacrifice a good nights sleep to get all their personal business done when they aren't working:
https://www.businessinsider.com/american-work-habits-culture...
Agreed — I would bet a lack of sleep due to hyperconnectivity, social media, and heavily increased exposure to bright artificial light through smartphones and laptops is the culprit.
The change brought on by this now ubiquitous feature of life may be easy to ignore while we’re in it, but teleport someone from the 90s to now and the first thing they’d notice is smartphones and laptops, not that people are fatter or less in shape.
The change brought on by this now ubiquitous feature of life may be easy to ignore while we’re in it, but teleport someone from the 90s to now and the first thing they’d notice is smartphones and laptops, not that people are fatter or less in shape.
Fractionated walks like these are still very different from sustained 10-20 (or even 40min) walks.
The ones staying inside all day playing Cyberpunk and not moving from the couch all day? Surprise. We've turned ourselves into actual couch potatoes. Wall-E was prophetic in this regard.
I would love to see this on a chart next to video game and netflix original series releases.
I would love to see this on a chart next to video game and netflix original series releases.
Wall-E was made when obesity was already insanely out of control. It was a commentary on society, not a prediction.
"The youth of today is lazy and stay indoors all day unlike our generation" – evergreen complaint documented going back at least 2000 years. Aristotle was ranting about "millennials" in 4 BC. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20171003-proof-that-peo...
"evergreen" but context matters. If these were issues that were raised during the decline of civilizations then it's still valid.
I mean, look at Greece now.
I mean, look at Greece now.
Are they unusually obese?
Well, the thing about evergreens is that they keep getting taller...
The fact is, generations differ in both behavior and physical properties.
[deleted]
physical activity was controlled for
More information on the effects of phytoestrogen (e.g. soy) from a study here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074428/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074428/
straight from the quoted article:
> For a typical consumer, alarm over soy products is likely unnecessary
> For a typical consumer, alarm over soy products is likely unnecessary
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/001850...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/001850...
Studies show that winning/losing and status have effects on testosterone.
I would hypothesize that with social media every individual is now capable of comparing their status to a much wider selection of people and find themselves lacking. "I am so far behind" is a common sentiment I've heard among peers, this seems pretty similar to a feeling of losing a race.
Studies show that winning/losing and status have effects on testosterone.
I would hypothesize that with social media every individual is now capable of comparing their status to a much wider selection of people and find themselves lacking. "I am so far behind" is a common sentiment I've heard among peers, this seems pretty similar to a feeling of losing a race.
I'm reminded of two facts from Matthew Walker's book Why We Sleep:
* People 5-18 years old sleep ~2 hours less per night than they did 100 years ago.
* U of Chicago study found that men who limited their sleep to 5 hours per night for a week experienced a drop in testosterone equivalent to 10-15 years of aging.
* People 5-18 years old sleep ~2 hours less per night than they did 100 years ago.
* U of Chicago study found that men who limited their sleep to 5 hours per night for a week experienced a drop in testosterone equivalent to 10-15 years of aging.
The lack of sleep on almost everything is horrifying. I recommend that book to everyone whenever the topic is discussed.
> According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins.
--Marijuana use? Is that legitimate? Does THC do some kind of endocrine confusion in the body? How in the world would marijuana use relate to the testes? Is THC or some derivative differentially absorbed in the testes with some detrimental effect? What would the mechanism be here exactly?
--Marijuana use? Is that legitimate? Does THC do some kind of endocrine confusion in the body? How in the world would marijuana use relate to the testes? Is THC or some derivative differentially absorbed in the testes with some detrimental effect? What would the mechanism be here exactly?
It's already known that marijuana use lowers your testosterone in the short term. Maybe it also has a long term effect.
Through what mechanism though? Does it stop the production of testosterone itself or does it bind to and saturate testosterone in the blood stream and sort of take it out of solution to no longer be detectable in the blood.
They say they controlled for BMI, but if the dependence on BMI is nonlinear (i.e. higher BMI reinforces it's own destructive effect on testosterone) then there will still be a residual effect after that control. I think this effect is entirely due to BMI.
I listened to a podcast episode recently - I don't really listen to much of the podcast, but I had a 12 hr drive, and have enjoyed occasional episodes in the past.
The host is Eric Weinstein, who is himself a scientist and seems to be a rather sharp individual.
https://theportal.wiki/wiki/19:_Bret_Weinstein_-_The_Predict...
It takes _a while_ to get going. Eventually, however, the host has his brother explain a convoluted story where, basically, his brother (an extremely competent researcher and scientist) discovered a genetic anomily in all the mice used in labratories around the world.
Because the mice were bread with such a pressure on the population, the telemeres on their DNA were getting awkwardly long (or short? I don't remember) resulting in their cells being _unusually good at repairing themselves_ with a downside of under-reporting the incident-rate of cancer.
The discovery got sniped from him, when he started reaching out from other prominent researchers, and eventually the discovery was buried.
It seems plausible that he tripped across an extremely damaging fact, one that would have forced a broad re-evaluation of the risk of many substances and medications recognized as "safe" or "healthy".
Stuff like this long-term testosterone decrease, if it's indeed a bad thing (it might not be!) could be a result of that kind of scientific burying.
Anyway - it was an interesting story.
The host is Eric Weinstein, who is himself a scientist and seems to be a rather sharp individual.
https://theportal.wiki/wiki/19:_Bret_Weinstein_-_The_Predict...
It takes _a while_ to get going. Eventually, however, the host has his brother explain a convoluted story where, basically, his brother (an extremely competent researcher and scientist) discovered a genetic anomily in all the mice used in labratories around the world.
Because the mice were bread with such a pressure on the population, the telemeres on their DNA were getting awkwardly long (or short? I don't remember) resulting in their cells being _unusually good at repairing themselves_ with a downside of under-reporting the incident-rate of cancer.
The discovery got sniped from him, when he started reaching out from other prominent researchers, and eventually the discovery was buried.
It seems plausible that he tripped across an extremely damaging fact, one that would have forced a broad re-evaluation of the risk of many substances and medications recognized as "safe" or "healthy".
Stuff like this long-term testosterone decrease, if it's indeed a bad thing (it might not be!) could be a result of that kind of scientific burying.
Anyway - it was an interesting story.
Mean total testosterone decreased from
1999-2000 (605.39 ng/dL),
2003-2004 (567.44 ng/dL),
2011-2012 (424.96 ng/dL),
2013-2014 (431.76 ng/dL), andd
2015-2016 (451.22 ng/dL; all P < .0001).
I've also seen articles saying there's a similar declining level of physical strength among men (measured by grip strength). I wonder if sitting at home all day playing video games instead of being outside running around reduces T levels.
How does being outside running around increase grip strength?
"Running around" means several things, in context he probably means kids being outside playing. Like running around the neighborhood, climbing things, throwing things, etc. Not just being on their feet running.
Yup. When I was a kid there was nothing to do inside. We were outside most of the time, riding bikes, building forts, wriggling through the storm drains, built a gokart, biking everywhere, impromptu games with the neighborhood kids who were also outside, throwing rocks, climbing trees, all very ordinary stuff for the times. I even tried to build an airplane out of scrap lumber, much to my dad's great amusement. Using a hand saw would sure make my arm ache :-)
There are a lot of kids in my neighborhood, but I never see them. They're inside presumably playing video games.
There are a lot of kids in my neighborhood, but I never see them. They're inside presumably playing video games.
Read up on estrogen mimics:
https://www.uwec.edu/academics/college-arts-sciences/departm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen
I think low level chemical exposure to many of these chemicals is largely to blame.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen
I think low level chemical exposure to many of these chemicals is largely to blame.
There have been studies that indicate women on birth control prefer men with less masculine faces (presumably from lower testosterone). So with birth control around since the 1950's, perhaps there is a link.
It is also clear that sperm counts have declined very significantly in the past decades. Some estimates put it at nearly 60% in Western men. But similar reports can be found for China https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-67707-x.pdf
and Africa. http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?hs17052
no one suspects porn? or social media, phone use, youtube, etc.?
I know that these are bit difficult to get significant hard evidence for, but at least anecdotally, isn't this kind of obvious to every man?
Being social in a real world, going to gym, pursuing goals ... you can feel the differences mounting up on yourself pretty clearly. On the other hand, watching porn, and browsing datings apps or social media ... depression, anxiety and low confidence sets in slowly.
Don't believe its chemical toxicity. The shared variable across the whole planet is internet, porn, social media and increased phone use.
There was none of this available in the past, so you had to entertain yourself in different ways. Now there is a lure of just staying at home and comforting yourself with the modern technology. None of which supports testosterone production as behaviors as opposed just going outside and doing something.
I know that these are bit difficult to get significant hard evidence for, but at least anecdotally, isn't this kind of obvious to every man?
Being social in a real world, going to gym, pursuing goals ... you can feel the differences mounting up on yourself pretty clearly. On the other hand, watching porn, and browsing datings apps or social media ... depression, anxiety and low confidence sets in slowly.
Don't believe its chemical toxicity. The shared variable across the whole planet is internet, porn, social media and increased phone use.
There was none of this available in the past, so you had to entertain yourself in different ways. Now there is a lure of just staying at home and comforting yourself with the modern technology. None of which supports testosterone production as behaviors as opposed just going outside and doing something.
Obesity, legal marijuana, & free porn.
Zero "proof".
Polyunsaturated fats should be considered a suspected causative agent. The average person is unaware that even resting body temperatures are on the decline.[1]
It is clear we are in the middle of a metabolic crisis.
To those in the comments pointing out the 1970s as the estimated time this must have started, you may be interested in knowing that that's when soybean oil took the food market by storm.[2]
[1] (not the best but you can find corroborating reports) https://elifesciences.org/articles/49555
[2] (figure within scientific literature) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076650/figure/...
It is clear we are in the middle of a metabolic crisis.
To those in the comments pointing out the 1970s as the estimated time this must have started, you may be interested in knowing that that's when soybean oil took the food market by storm.[2]
[1] (not the best but you can find corroborating reports) https://elifesciences.org/articles/49555
[2] (figure within scientific literature) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3076650/figure/...
My 2 cents is we are much more socialised with the internet. Kids spend less time outside more time knowing what the latest social pressure is. One slip up and you will be cancelled.
Similar to taking a dog to doggy day care they are socialise not to be aggressive, from a young age around other dogs and small children.
Similar to taking a dog to doggy day care they are socialise not to be aggressive, from a young age around other dogs and small children.
Kids playing outside typically means "group". They were attuned to social pressure.
Toxins in plastic lower testosterone.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nextavenue.org/how-chemical...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nextavenue.org/how-chemical...
I know from testing that mine would be perfectly normal ... if I were in my eighties and had to use a walker to get around, according to my doctor. He hypothesized that I may never have had normal levels and I am inclined to agree. Unfortunately, treatment is complicated by a metabolic disorder I have, so I would have to find an aromatase inhibitor to suit as well as something to put a halt to 5-alpha-reductase.
Admittedly, I find myself somewhat afraid of a variety of small factors. Certainly I would like to keep my hair, but more than that I am concerned that I simply wouldn't know how to deal with the drive (normally one would say "renewed" here but I have been take-it-or-leave-it about most things).
Admittedly, I find myself somewhat afraid of a variety of small factors. Certainly I would like to keep my hair, but more than that I am concerned that I simply wouldn't know how to deal with the drive (normally one would say "renewed" here but I have been take-it-or-leave-it about most things).
The study basically said body mass projected the same results? I can't help but think that the typical foods we consume as an 'advanced' nation are ones of convience and ones that primarily are addictive and unhealthy; this has to be a significant contributing factor. Along with low activity, more cerebral work, vs physical labor has to be a play as well.
Edit: they did mention that comorbidities, including diabetes were a contributing factor. Sugar is the root of all evil, and Americans for sure love their corn syrups... after all it is their cash crop.
Oddly enough, recently there was the company Lipocine in the news that created a new drug that basically is designed to restore normal testosterone levels in men: TLANDO.
Edit: they did mention that comorbidities, including diabetes were a contributing factor. Sugar is the root of all evil, and Americans for sure love their corn syrups... after all it is their cash crop.
Oddly enough, recently there was the company Lipocine in the news that created a new drug that basically is designed to restore normal testosterone levels in men: TLANDO.
Do enough look ups on Google Trends, and you'll see that the areas that surround the Mississippi river (and inflow rivers) are often correlated with all sorts of medical diseases searches. For example, here's one for testosterone:
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=l...
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=l...
Could it be that the high protein / low carb diet have something to do with it?
My money is on this one.
A few years ago I switched to a high-protein diet because I started lifting, slowly but steadily things "went south". At one point was pretty bad.
Then I found 1 obscure study linking low carb diet to low testosterone, I switched to a more balanced mediterranean diet and things improved and then got better than ever before.
I know this is heresy, but.. I am putting out there, you've heard it here first.
My money is on this one.
A few years ago I switched to a high-protein diet because I started lifting, slowly but steadily things "went south". At one point was pretty bad.
Then I found 1 obscure study linking low carb diet to low testosterone, I switched to a more balanced mediterranean diet and things improved and then got better than ever before.
I know this is heresy, but.. I am putting out there, you've heard it here first.
I doubt that many young people do "high protein / low carb" diet. It's hard to avoid carbs by mistake, especially with young people food like fries, pizza and beer.
"Low carb" diet does not lower your testosterone. "High protein" diet does [1], because proteins will bond with testosterone. Increased magnesium will prevent that [2].
"High fat / low carb" diet will increase your testosterone due to increased dietary fat consumption.
[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129168/ [2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3958794/
"Low carb" diet does not lower your testosterone. "High protein" diet does [1], because proteins will bond with testosterone. Increased magnesium will prevent that [2].
"High fat / low carb" diet will increase your testosterone due to increased dietary fat consumption.
[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129168/ [2]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3958794/
This reminds me of an episode of This American Life from 2002. There was a segment about a guy who had extremely low testosterone:
> He explains that life without testosterone is life without desire—desire for everything: food, conversation, even TV. And he says life without desire is unexpectedly pleasant.
[1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone
> He explains that life without testosterone is life without desire—desire for everything: food, conversation, even TV. And he says life without desire is unexpectedly pleasant.
[1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220/testosterone
I see a lot of speculation here about something like an unknown toxin being the cause. Is it possible that societal and cultural trends are driving this change? In other words, the emotional quality of modern day life. Perhaps another explanation is simply just evolution. After all, what does physical prowess really get you nowadays compared with even 20 or 30 years before?
It may be just simply due to overall degradation of mankind due to lower child mortality. It doesn't come for free after all.
Sure seem to be a lot of comments attributing this to changes in daily life that were controlled for.
Not saying it's 100% chemical, but it's always good to educate oneself on the possibility
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen
Not saying it's 100% chemical, but it's always good to educate oneself on the possibility
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen
This will get buried but I read an article somewhat recently about sperm count, which seems to be related: https://www.gq.com/story/sperm-count-zero
Over the past two years I have fallen down a medical rabbit hole that has revealed some really weird things to me. I don’t know how to explain it convincingly so I’ll just get it out:
The reason why this is happening is also part of why autism is going up (even when controlled for broader diagnosis) and autoimmune complaints are going up, as well as many other things. It’s because we have systematically eliminated fat and red meat from our diets over the past half decade, and also because we dialed up on sugar. In a bizarre plot twist, it turns out that everything we think about diet is wrong and a diet of beef, beef tallow and salt not only doesn’t screw up your cholesterol, it fixes almost every medical problem that people have. Again, it’s too wild for me to convince anyone. It’s too crazy. If you don’t believe me then go see for yourself. Meatrx slash success stories.
The reason why this is happening is also part of why autism is going up (even when controlled for broader diagnosis) and autoimmune complaints are going up, as well as many other things. It’s because we have systematically eliminated fat and red meat from our diets over the past half decade, and also because we dialed up on sugar. In a bizarre plot twist, it turns out that everything we think about diet is wrong and a diet of beef, beef tallow and salt not only doesn’t screw up your cholesterol, it fixes almost every medical problem that people have. Again, it’s too wild for me to convince anyone. It’s too crazy. If you don’t believe me then go see for yourself. Meatrx slash success stories.
Extraordinary claims require.. one anecdote? Globally we eat more meat per person today than ever before. Only very few people have been on a high beef diet ever in this world
This is actually incorrect. For millions of years humans ate nothing but animals. When you eat an entire animal, including its organs, you are getting every macronutrient and micronutrient required by the human body. The forms that vitamins take in animals are the most bioavailable to humans.
We have been eating meat and saturated animal fat much longer than abundant carbohydrates have even existed. Combine this with the fact that all your health problems go away on carnivore, it’s pretty obvious that we were designed to eat meat.
It isn’t until you go carnivore that you realize how a plant based diet is actively trying to destroy your mouth and take away your teeth. Do you think ancient humans were brushing their teeth and flossing?
And it’s not just that your health problems go away. You become practically super human. You get ripped without going to the gym. Reports of higher energy and mental clarity are practically universal.
I know it sound crazy and that’s why I qualified my comment the way I did. There are hundreds of video testimonies that back up what I say on meatrx.
One of the things that is also universal is an increase in testosterone and aggressiveness.
We have been eating meat and saturated animal fat much longer than abundant carbohydrates have even existed. Combine this with the fact that all your health problems go away on carnivore, it’s pretty obvious that we were designed to eat meat.
It isn’t until you go carnivore that you realize how a plant based diet is actively trying to destroy your mouth and take away your teeth. Do you think ancient humans were brushing their teeth and flossing?
And it’s not just that your health problems go away. You become practically super human. You get ripped without going to the gym. Reports of higher energy and mental clarity are practically universal.
I know it sound crazy and that’s why I qualified my comment the way I did. There are hundreds of video testimonies that back up what I say on meatrx.
One of the things that is also universal is an increase in testosterone and aggressiveness.
Nobody's mentioning lack of sleep, that's when your body makes testosterone.
I feel pretty incredible on TRT.
I’m 36, and started summer of last year with levels in the low 500’s. I’ve done a ton of research to get properly dialed-in.
It’s nice knowing that I’m now shielded from these external causes of low T.
I’m 36, and started summer of last year with levels in the low 500’s. I’ve done a ton of research to get properly dialed-in.
It’s nice knowing that I’m now shielded from these external causes of low T.
Giving a literal sense to the saying “back in my time, when men where men”
I’ve been meaning to talk to my doctor about what I think are my own low Testosterone levels. I know I should work out more but I wonder where it fell off. I’m only 34.
I won't point to studies but it has been acknowledged as a side effect of Covid-19. Low testosterone can also result from liver damage or other organ failure.
One contributing factor is human beings self-selecting for passivity. We lock violent people away, and that dramatically reduces their chances of procreation. Over time, the population is likely to become more passive.
Also, comfort. Life in North America, even for the poor, is more comfortable than life elsewhere on the planet.
Finally, the average human in modern societies is far more cerebral now, because society requires complex interactions to get even simple things done. Thinking about the number of steps required to obtain temporary shelter now (book a hotel or AirBnB) vs 10000 years in the past.
Just speculation in all cases, no hard data to back any of it up.
Also, comfort. Life in North America, even for the poor, is more comfortable than life elsewhere on the planet.
Finally, the average human in modern societies is far more cerebral now, because society requires complex interactions to get even simple things done. Thinking about the number of steps required to obtain temporary shelter now (book a hotel or AirBnB) vs 10000 years in the past.
Just speculation in all cases, no hard data to back any of it up.
The study is focused on the last couple of decades, doesn't it seem unlikely any evolutionary selective pressures are a cause in such a short and recent time span?
If it's not happening in Europe then both of your points are destroyed, just a thought. Very comfortable place to be, most of Europe.
I would wager that over the past four decades there's a pretty tight correlation between sugar consumption, obesity, and reduced testosterone.
First thing that comes to mind: Porn. It makes men empty their testosteron much quicker then putting in work and chasing after women.
Lower physical activity in addition to aromatase activators and xenoestrogens from the environment?
Pollutants in the environment have also been increasing. The world seems about the same as it did in the 90's but the amount of microplastics, herbicides and pesticides in our water and our food has gone through the roof.
I wonder if we can scientifically show that lax environmental laws and enforcement of said laws ensures that your son will become a wimp, will that make all the fat head right wingers start taking environmental protection seriously?
I wonder if we can scientifically show that lax environmental laws and enforcement of said laws ensures that your son will become a wimp, will that make all the fat head right wingers start taking environmental protection seriously?
I wonder to what extend this is due to parenting and the fact kids are not exposed to other kids their age without adult control anymore.
Then when they grow up they get consumed with electronic devices and loose chances for actual physical contact with others typically necessary to test your position on a ladder.
Then when they grow up they get consumed with electronic devices and loose chances for actual physical contact with others typically necessary to test your position on a ladder.
Yet another symptom of the obesity epidemic.
That's not all of it. "Lokeshwar noted that even men with a normal BMI (18.5-24.9) had declining total testosterone levels (P < .05) during the same time frames." lack of hard physical labor in general, or modern diets just being filled with hormones?
Lack of hard physical labor, combined with increasing average caloric intake may contribute to lower average muscle mass & total testosterone while still maintaining a "normal" BMI. I don't have evidence to support this, but this is my guess for falling testosterone within the "normal" BMI range over time (in addition to the effect of environmental pollutants on hormones).
The "real" measure of how fat you are is body-fat percentage, which can vary at a given BMI level. It's not hard to imagine that people have gotten fatter at the same BMI level, as well as people being at the higher end of the "normal" range.
Isn't it a fair question to ask though whether the average BMI of those with a "normal BMI" (18.5-24.9) changed during the time frames of interest? And if it did, couldn't that still be a cause?
My money is on the ubiquitous endocrine disruptors that have polluted our ecosystem
Yeah, all that soy lattes start to add up :)
That's a myth from the 80s.
Oh, I didn't realise soy was a pollutant. Interesting.
It's not the only cause but, from my experience, it's a big one, no pun intended.
I might have made different diet choices as a young man if I knew that body fat aromatizes testosterone into estrogen. This is the primary cause for most cases of gynecomastia, which is why it's rare to see a man with breasts who isn't also overweight to some extent. Obesity is effectively feminizing a large portion of men and lowering their sexual market value. Overall, I think obesity is making people less attracted to each other, which can partially explain the decline in the rate of reproduction.
I might have made different diet choices as a young man if I knew that body fat aromatizes testosterone into estrogen. This is the primary cause for most cases of gynecomastia, which is why it's rare to see a man with breasts who isn't also overweight to some extent. Obesity is effectively feminizing a large portion of men and lowering their sexual market value. Overall, I think obesity is making people less attracted to each other, which can partially explain the decline in the rate of reproduction.
> which is why it's rare to see a man with breasts who isn't also overweight to some extent.
While (assumedly) true, I feel the need to note that the reverse does not hold generally: 'man boobs' are purely fat in nearly all cases and will go away when someone loses weight.
Gynecomastia is breast tissue and does not go away if you lose weight.
While (assumedly) true, I feel the need to note that the reverse does not hold generally: 'man boobs' are purely fat in nearly all cases and will go away when someone loses weight.
Gynecomastia is breast tissue and does not go away if you lose weight.
In my opinion, it's the biggest problem facing us. Even this COVID pandemic would have been much less expensive without an obese population, because our hospital capacity may not have been pushed to its limits. CDC says being obese triples the likelihood a person would need hospitalization:
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html
I don't see a solution. We're not going to be able to use the same techniques used to get people not to smoke to address the obesity problem.
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html
I don't see a solution. We're not going to be able to use the same techniques used to get people not to smoke to address the obesity problem.
The paper doesn’t show a steady decrease.
My one word explanation: safety.
This explains a lot politically.
Sure, but is this a good thing?
It's banana hammocks.
would this have any relationship to declining sperm rates as well?
That's because everyone is in front of screens these days, usually seeking attention.
@dang, (2020)
And that's a good thing!
You jest (I assume), but it really is startling how this isn't treated like the health crisis it seems to be.
I come from a country with compulsory military service and there's regular talk about the health of young conscripts declining over the years. The solution by the government? Reduce the requirements for fitness so they can get the necessary number of men (not women of course).
I come from a country with compulsory military service and there's regular talk about the health of young conscripts declining over the years. The solution by the government? Reduce the requirements for fitness so they can get the necessary number of men (not women of course).
I'm not sure if HNers worry about this because actual health risks or because of some male pride, maybe Im ignoring health risks caused by low testosterone, but I feel is quite the opposite, women are generally healthier and live longer.
If anything, low T will make you bald less, there are many unhealthy habits of the modern life, sedentarism and obesity, that have real negative impacts, its odd to me why we would specifically care about this
If anything, low T will make you bald less, there are many unhealthy habits of the modern life, sedentarism and obesity, that have real negative impacts, its odd to me why we would specifically care about this
It also makes you sad, have low energy, less drive to do anything, lower muscle mass, worse facial aesthetics, more feminine fat distribution, weaker sperm, and less bone growth through puberty. It is pretty much not a good thing for any reason.
I have zero T after being chemically castrated, feel no sadness at all. I would say life is better after no longer having an urge to chase a hole all the time.
You don't know anything. Endogenous testosterone is NOT unhealthy.
When one of us high-testosterone males carries you out of a burning building you might reconsider. It's frankly pathetic how physically incapable most Americans are.
When one of us high-testosterone males carries you out of a burning building you might reconsider. It's frankly pathetic how physically incapable most Americans are.
[deleted]
Is there a study of testosterone levels in women? Anecdotally it feels like it's rising.
sergiotapia(1)
xwdv(5)
26 and just was prescribed testosterone booster. Haven’t changed anything... it really came out of nowhere.
Chalking this up to declining physical activity amongst young U.S. men.
it mentions that they controlled for that.
They said that they controlled for that in the study.
Can we use testosterone to absorb excess CO2??
Maybe food has sth to do with decrease of testosterone, but I think it's rather cultural issue.
1. Lifestyle. Less sport, more cars etc.
2. Politics. Testosterone behaviors are less and less rewarded (or even directly punished). Adaptive strategy is to produce it less.
1. Lifestyle. Less sport, more cars etc.
2. Politics. Testosterone behaviors are less and less rewarded (or even directly punished). Adaptive strategy is to produce it less.
Men are becoming wimpier. I know my cousin growing up was afraid of dogs, heights, terrified of open water, and so on. He grew up with few friends, did not play any sports, and spent most days indoors on the computer, very over protective mother.
Honestly, in previous times he would be ridiculed for being very wimpy and scared of the world. Very little social pressure now. You can just retreat into your man cave, battle station, or cacoon after coming home from a very safe office job.
Masculinity is not just genetic. Just like muscles, it needs context for it to develop. Had he grown up in Sparta, same person, would be different.
Honestly, in previous times he would be ridiculed for being very wimpy and scared of the world. Very little social pressure now. You can just retreat into your man cave, battle station, or cacoon after coming home from a very safe office job.
Masculinity is not just genetic. Just like muscles, it needs context for it to develop. Had he grown up in Sparta, same person, would be different.
> Very little social pressure now. You can just retreat into your man cave, battle station, or cacoon after coming home from a very safe office job.
Is there a reason to believe this kind of social pressure would actually affect your testosterone levels? Does being pressured into acting more manly actually change your hormone levels? Sounds dubious, unless we're going by second order effects (decreased obesity from doing "manly things", etc).
Is there a reason to believe this kind of social pressure would actually affect your testosterone levels? Does being pressured into acting more manly actually change your hormone levels? Sounds dubious, unless we're going by second order effects (decreased obesity from doing "manly things", etc).
Well you answered your own question. You become by doing. If you don't train muscles they don't grow. If you're sedentary, and obese, knock on effect from doing that.
Just think about it this way. If you got dropped off to live in the wilderness of Alaska. And I came back to visit you in a year. Do you think you would be more masculine. I bet so. All kinds of changes would need to be made by you and your body just to survive. From fitness level, to body fat percentage, and so on.
Just think about it this way. If you got dropped off to live in the wilderness of Alaska. And I came back to visit you in a year. Do you think you would be more masculine. I bet so. All kinds of changes would need to be made by you and your body just to survive. From fitness level, to body fat percentage, and so on.
> All kinds of changes would need to be made by you and your body just to survive. From fitness level, to body fat percentage, and so on.
Sure, but if the wimpy guy hits the gym every day and has an optimal diet (but otherwise works their desk job, maybe with a standing desk, and retreats to their man cave), would you expect that to work roughly just as well?
Sure, but if the wimpy guy hits the gym every day and has an optimal diet (but otherwise works their desk job, maybe with a standing desk, and retreats to their man cave), would you expect that to work roughly just as well?
I don't know how much actually being outdoors matters. I suspect that getting exposed to a forest environment; cold, bacteria/molds in the air, sunshine, and so on might matter too. Even possibly eating gamely animals.
I grew up on a farm, so I know that dogs that are kept outdoors, act differently than dogs that are kept indoors.
They are more aggressive, appear fitter, and smarter. I suspect their brains might develop differently from living outdoors.
I grew up on a farm, so I know that dogs that are kept outdoors, act differently than dogs that are kept indoors.
They are more aggressive, appear fitter, and smarter. I suspect their brains might develop differently from living outdoors.
Stress to the body from overexercise can decrease testosterone, though.
I find this worldview really funny.
How would you increase estrogen?
How would you increase estrogen?
I don't know how to increase estrogen levels in normal weight women. But you can definitely lower estrogen levels, by dropping below a certain body fat percentage. In fact, at some point, a women will lose her cycle if she's too skinny and wont be able to get pregnant.
My ex girlfriend had six pack abs, was a very fit person. Probably top 1% of all women. I suspect that my girlfriend was able to achieve her six pack abs for 3 reasons. Had a meat/low sugar/low carb diet, and did a lot of swimming. But I suspect, the biggest reason was that she probably had higher than average testosterone levels for a woman. That also had the knock on effect of her liking exercise more.
My ex girlfriend had six pack abs, was a very fit person. Probably top 1% of all women. I suspect that my girlfriend was able to achieve her six pack abs for 3 reasons. Had a meat/low sugar/low carb diet, and did a lot of swimming. But I suspect, the biggest reason was that she probably had higher than average testosterone levels for a woman. That also had the knock on effect of her liking exercise more.
So the woman who exercises a lot probably does so because she has high testosterone,
But the man who has low testosterone probably does so because of social norms?
The chicken and egg appears to reverse in your reasoning here
But the man who has low testosterone probably does so because of social norms?
The chicken and egg appears to reverse in your reasoning here
You make a good point. I think of these more like a feed back loop. One can affect the other. You can spiral up, or spiral down.
Some people might be genetically predisposed to become Alcoholics. Once you start drinking more, it will make you more of an alcoholic. Drinking less, will make you less of an alcoholic. Social pressure might help you drink less, or drink more.
Its not inconsistent.
Why in the world would you want to do that? Have you bought into the false notion that estrogen is merely the "female" hormone, simply because it is produced in the ovaries, without critically wondering if there are other hormones involved?
If it weren't for progesterone, women would die from their own estrogen, probably as a result of metastatic hyperplasia.
Is it still just the female hormone in your mind? Are you even aware why you have this false dichotomy stuck somewhere in your brain?
If it weren't for progesterone, women would die from their own estrogen, probably as a result of metastatic hyperplasia.
Is it still just the female hormone in your mind? Are you even aware why you have this false dichotomy stuck somewhere in your brain?
What about it amuses you?
It's conflating traditional gender norms, social masculinity, and physical traits like testosterone, then bundling everything into you gotta act like X to acquire Y, because that's how muscles work. Rugged man living off the woods in Alaska feels like a tropey barbarian.
If his logic is to believed, there should be equal methods to raise hormone levels for estrogen. I'm curious what he would propose.
Living in the wilderness is probably hard work, but I might bet more on the guy who plays team sports on weekends, eats healthy meals, and tries to get laid in a civil society.
People had meek cousins at all times of history.
If his logic is to believed, there should be equal methods to raise hormone levels for estrogen. I'm curious what he would propose.
Living in the wilderness is probably hard work, but I might bet more on the guy who plays team sports on weekends, eats healthy meals, and tries to get laid in a civil society.
People had meek cousins at all times of history.
I think the reference to Sparta in the parent comment is the icing on the cake.
Exercise increases testosterone levels, for one. So I would think, yes, if only because being pressured into acting more manly makes men do more exercise and sports to look more manly.
[deleted]
https://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12958-020-0...
Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation.
A side comment. I am 42. When I was younger, in the late 90s, getting into physical fight was much more common than today. These days even drunk young guys seem to be content with hurling a few insults. (For record, I am a peaceful person and the possibility of getting beaten up for no good reason was something I definitely did not look forward to during my old pub crawls.)
I wonder if this is actually a manifestation of population-wide testosterone drop.