iPhone remains findable after power off(twitter.com)
twitter.com
iPhone remains findable after power off
https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/1442870352799879174
335 comments
> They even give you a dialog prompt now to inform you
slightly tangential, I hate being informed of things when I try to do them. I'm in a hurry, I don't want to read all about something now. I wish the dialogs had an "email this to me, willya?" selection, with an opportunity to decide the long term setting that I want.
slightly tangential, I hate being informed of things when I try to do them. I'm in a hurry, I don't want to read all about something now. I wish the dialogs had an "email this to me, willya?" selection, with an opportunity to decide the long term setting that I want.
Ultimately it doesn't really matter anyway. Unless you are the worlds most wanted criminal and Apple is working with the government to track you down via your turned off iphone. And in that case, you should have done your research to see this anyway.
If the average user blows past this message, it has no impact on their life.
If the average user blows past this message, it has no impact on their life.
From the referenced tweet thread about someone finding this out for the first time:
In other news I updated my phone to iOS 15 and put it down to charge last night. When I woke up it was hot, and my battery has gone from 100% to 15% since 7:30am. I gotta get off this ecosystem.
"My phone's battery life has suddenly become much worse" sure sounds like a major impact to me.
In other news I updated my phone to iOS 15 and put it down to charge last night. When I woke up it was hot, and my battery has gone from 100% to 15% since 7:30am. I gotta get off this ecosystem.
"My phone's battery life has suddenly become much worse" sure sounds like a major impact to me.
That has nothing to do with this change. It doesn't even seem like they had their phone turned off for this to be in play anyway. The most likely answer is that they hit a bug in the new update or that they placed their phone off centered on a wireless charger. I'm not sure why the general public should care about rare bugs in day one updates which get patched pretty quick anyway.
The turned off pings use an ultra low power mode similar to the airtags which should last months on a "flat" battery.
The turned off pings use an ultra low power mode similar to the airtags which should last months on a "flat" battery.
> … placed their phone off centered on a wireless charger.
No. The phone got charged. That’s made clear in the quote. Something is draining it post-charge.
No. The phone got charged. That’s made clear in the quote. Something is draining it post-charge.
IIRC after an update your phone starts to reindex everything so for a short while battery is impacted.
The Chinese, Russians or Belarusians wouldn't agree with you. There's plenty of people there doing "illegal things". Why should you care? You never know when something can become illegal in the future or the social equivalent of cancelling. You might have made a joke that's not okay in the future, criticized a leader, read a book, played a game, used a VPN...
Ah, a new version of the 'nothing to hide' argument. Thanks.
Yup. “Nothing to hide!”
This makes no sense. If you want to hide, just tap the warning and it gives you the option to turn off the feature.
So it works best for everyone. The average person can track their stolen phones now. And people hiding from the government can still turn it off.
So it works best for everyone. The average person can track their stolen phones now. And people hiding from the government can still turn it off.
this lowers engagement metrics, so probably not going to happen
Depends how long your after-update tutorial is.
We ran an A/B test on some 3-pane and 8-pane versions of these at my last job and on the long ones with a "dismiss" button IIRC it took our users something like 3.4 panes to hit it on average. The long ones without the dismiss button got people to view panes 7 and 8 a lot more often but there was a noticeable (albeit small) uptick in users who left the site entirely instead of finishing.
We ran an A/B test on some 3-pane and 8-pane versions of these at my last job and on the long ones with a "dismiss" button IIRC it took our users something like 3.4 panes to hit it on average. The long ones without the dismiss button got people to view panes 7 and 8 a lot more often but there was a noticeable (albeit small) uptick in users who left the site entirely instead of finishing.
the modal dialog that interrupts my flow is forcing engagement, adding a choice doesn't change anything
In this case, there's a bit of extra text that is clearly clickable (has the now standard arrow to the right indicating there's something more). Then there's a dialog box describing the system and two choices: OK, Temporarily Turn Off Finding.
The modal dialog could be replaced with a toggle on the same screen as the power off slider in place of that text, and maybe one day it will be. But right now, since the feature is novel, it's probably worth it to have the extra bit of text so people know what the options are that they're selecting between. As far as slowing you down, you're shutting down your phone. If you only want to temporarily turn this off, yes, you're slowed down by about 0.5 seconds But if you are really concerned about this feature you've also had opportunities while using the phone to disable it so that it is permanently off in which case you can just use the power off slider and be done with it.
The modal dialog could be replaced with a toggle on the same screen as the power off slider in place of that text, and maybe one day it will be. But right now, since the feature is novel, it's probably worth it to have the extra bit of text so people know what the options are that they're selecting between. As far as slowing you down, you're shutting down your phone. If you only want to temporarily turn this off, yes, you're slowed down by about 0.5 seconds But if you are really concerned about this feature you've also had opportunities while using the phone to disable it so that it is permanently off in which case you can just use the power off slider and be done with it.
It's less complaining about the existence of the text, and moreso there's a lack of a way to remind you about reading this later.
You made a decision before you had all the information, but you're so busy you don't want to reconsider your decision after learning new information?
This sounds an awful lot like defences of hundred page EULAs: "So you made a decision not to read it...".
No, it was intentionally designed in a way which discourages reading. In the case of this warning, it's possible that it was unintentionally designed in a way which discourages reading, but regardless the fault lies, at least in part, with the design.
No, it was intentionally designed in a way which discourages reading. In the case of this warning, it's possible that it was unintentionally designed in a way which discourages reading, but regardless the fault lies, at least in part, with the design.
I think it's two-fold. Part of EULAs are just discouragement. But part of it is that the legal community doesn't do "simple and clear". Due to the weaselish twisting of words in lawsuits everything has to be airtightly formulated and that causes a bunch of legal terms and extremely explicit descriptions which basically makes legal documents unreadable for normal people.
Which also benefits the legal community by keeping them in a job, obviously. "Get it checked by legal/my lawyer" rather than just reading what you're signing up to is definitely a thing. I wish the legal system was more focused on clarity and common sense rather than the hard letter of the law.
Which also benefits the legal community by keeping them in a job, obviously. "Get it checked by legal/my lawyer" rather than just reading what you're signing up to is definitely a thing. I wish the legal system was more focused on clarity and common sense rather than the hard letter of the law.
> legal documents unreadable for normal people
One would think that a group of people so familiar with Latin would understand the potential consequences of this. That the masses were able to read Protestant literature but unable to read Catholic literature was one of the major factors that allowed the Reformation to occur.
One would think that a group of people so familiar with Latin would understand the potential consequences of this. That the masses were able to read Protestant literature but unable to read Catholic literature was one of the major factors that allowed the Reformation to occur.
Agreed.. You can kinda see the beginning of this. Nobody takes EULAs seriously. I mean, who even reads them?
The problem is that this was not done by a conscious decision but by a slow progression of a system. Bad actors getting away because of wording not being airtight etc.
Perhaps what could be done is enforcing the key points of legal agreement to appear at the top in clear language. We're already seeing some of such initiatives like Apple's privacy information section in the app store.
The problem is that this was not done by a conscious decision but by a slow progression of a system. Bad actors getting away because of wording not being airtight etc.
Perhaps what could be done is enforcing the key points of legal agreement to appear at the top in clear language. We're already seeing some of such initiatives like Apple's privacy information section in the app store.
Some people are impossible to please I guess.
It's all about timing. My computer and phone are work tools, and I can't stand the things they do at an OS and app level that get in the way of me doing my work, because most often when I do it, I'm in a really big hurry to get it done. A simple dismissible notice of "hey we need to talk later about some stuff" and an easy place to view that queue would go a long way to improving this state of affairs.
As much as I agree with you, honestly, when are you ever going to get to that queue of messages? Even my email inbox is overflowing with the not-emergency messages, as it has been doing since 2006 or so.
Agreed!
The worst time to try to tell me about new features is right when I'm firing up my web meeting client to join a meeting that's about to start.
The worst time to try to tell me about new features is right when I'm firing up my web meeting client to join a meeting that's about to start.
Seconded. I get so sick of dismissing that idiotic Android warning whenever I turn my VPN on.
Same complaint for those annoying "how to use our website or Electron app" tutorials the first time you sign in or after updates.
Make help discoverable, don't ram it down our throats, please.
Make help discoverable, don't ram it down our throats, please.
Sorry, but we have to :)
We added loads of genuinely useful new features to our SaaS app over the past year, such as the ability to mute notifications, quick user-switching with a PIN, and non-exclusive user role membership, and more - despite mentioning this in our monthly user newsletter we still get peppered with support emails and feature-requests for things that already exist! Additionally our feature-usage data showed that users just weren’t using them.
After we added a forced (but only 15 second long) new-feature-tour those support tickets evaporated and user-satisfaction went up.
Gotta use tough-love, it seems.
——————
Users are weird - we have a bog-standard “user menu” in the top-right corner that’s got the usual visual-affordances and opened by just hovering your name and avatars - with menu items like Logout, Switch User, Dark Mode, etc - but to our surprise the vast majority of our users simply never explore the software.
We added loads of genuinely useful new features to our SaaS app over the past year, such as the ability to mute notifications, quick user-switching with a PIN, and non-exclusive user role membership, and more - despite mentioning this in our monthly user newsletter we still get peppered with support emails and feature-requests for things that already exist! Additionally our feature-usage data showed that users just weren’t using them.
After we added a forced (but only 15 second long) new-feature-tour those support tickets evaporated and user-satisfaction went up.
Gotta use tough-love, it seems.
——————
Users are weird - we have a bog-standard “user menu” in the top-right corner that’s got the usual visual-affordances and opened by just hovering your name and avatars - with menu items like Logout, Switch User, Dark Mode, etc - but to our surprise the vast majority of our users simply never explore the software.
Maybe it could be opt out at the end of the first onboard/tutorial.. "Thanks, but I'll explore the software on my own from now on [x]"?
We considered it, but (in this case) the application's use-case is on shared/communual "front-line" machines (hence why we added quick-user-switching), so even though ostensibly a single, human user is logged-in, we honestly don't know who is actually using the machine, and some other user who is just borrowing a machine could easily dismiss a tour/onboarding intended for the actual user who is logged-in.
If you think that's bad, when we overhauled some incompetently written code (from a dodgy contractor before I joined) that stored passwords using reversible-encryption (ARGH!) - which was for a "feature" that allowed tenant-admins to reveal their own users' passwords (WTFBBQ!) - and switched to using correctly hashed+salted passwords we had dozens of support calls from angry/frustrated (and yet unsophisticated...) users who said they were no-longer able to login because they never bothered to remember their password, they'd just ask their tenant-admin to tell them their own password (aiaaiaiiaiaiia) and now they couldn't do it anymore. We asked why they couldn't use the forgot-password page or a magic-link to login and they said it doesn't work because they all used fake e-mail addresses for their users (*dies*) (these tenant accounts were all set-up before things were fixed, and accounts with invalid/unverified e-mail addresses were just grandfathered-in).
We do also support OIDC (we are our own IdP, as well), so to try to make things easier for our users we'll be adding O365/AzAD soon, with sign-in-with-Google (and maybe sign-in with Facebook... excuse me while I take a cold shower) so at least some users can dispense with having a separate user-account they need to remember details for.
...so things were awful, now they're just bad, and they're getting better - but things could always be worse: Our main competitor is an on-prem VB6 app that pushes data to a "cloud" (i.e. Internet-exposed) SQL Server running off a business/residential IP address with a hardcoded SQL login userID and password shared by everyone (all of their tenants!).
------------------
...this is what the LoB software world is like. There is so much room for improvement everywhere - but all the competent uni grads join some glamorous FAANGMA company after school (well, I'm guilty of that myself...) - but I wish they'd consider un-sexy LoB software: it pays much better than FAANGMA provided you're competent and know how to negotiate. I think the LoB area gets a bad rep just because it's generally where (for want of a better phrase) less-talented people end-up which brings down the average total-comp.
I'm rambling at 3am again, ugh...
If you think that's bad, when we overhauled some incompetently written code (from a dodgy contractor before I joined) that stored passwords using reversible-encryption (ARGH!) - which was for a "feature" that allowed tenant-admins to reveal their own users' passwords (WTFBBQ!) - and switched to using correctly hashed+salted passwords we had dozens of support calls from angry/frustrated (and yet unsophisticated...) users who said they were no-longer able to login because they never bothered to remember their password, they'd just ask their tenant-admin to tell them their own password (aiaaiaiiaiaiia) and now they couldn't do it anymore. We asked why they couldn't use the forgot-password page or a magic-link to login and they said it doesn't work because they all used fake e-mail addresses for their users (*dies*) (these tenant accounts were all set-up before things were fixed, and accounts with invalid/unverified e-mail addresses were just grandfathered-in).
We do also support OIDC (we are our own IdP, as well), so to try to make things easier for our users we'll be adding O365/AzAD soon, with sign-in-with-Google (and maybe sign-in with Facebook... excuse me while I take a cold shower) so at least some users can dispense with having a separate user-account they need to remember details for.
...so things were awful, now they're just bad, and they're getting better - but things could always be worse: Our main competitor is an on-prem VB6 app that pushes data to a "cloud" (i.e. Internet-exposed) SQL Server running off a business/residential IP address with a hardcoded SQL login userID and password shared by everyone (all of their tenants!).
------------------
...this is what the LoB software world is like. There is so much room for improvement everywhere - but all the competent uni grads join some glamorous FAANGMA company after school (well, I'm guilty of that myself...) - but I wish they'd consider un-sexy LoB software: it pays much better than FAANGMA provided you're competent and know how to negotiate. I think the LoB area gets a bad rep just because it's generally where (for want of a better phrase) less-talented people end-up which brings down the average total-comp.
I'm rambling at 3am again, ugh...
LoB is line of business? What are a few examples of LoB software companies and roles? Walmart secops?
Yeah. We’re not in any big company - far from it. If this was the last decade I guess we’d be called a Micro-ISV. I don’t know what the current trendy name is though.
For real, VSCode is one of the "champions" of this. Yes, I'm sure the new Golang extension is very cool or that I need to setup this other module but for now I'm just worried about what I need to do
VSCode opens a page of content in an editor tab next to what you are doing. That’s pretty much as unobtrusive as it gets. You can just close it and move on. It’s just there if you want to and is a nice way to signal that it did indeed update as everything is pretty much automatic.
Also it’s very easy to reopen later which was the OP complaint against popups. Now that I think about it, VSCode is pretty much best in class when it comes to update content notifications.
Also it’s very easy to reopen later which was the OP complaint against popups. Now that I think about it, VSCode is pretty much best in class when it comes to update content notifications.
Yes but I'm talking about the bottom right pop-ups
Yes / No / Default now, ask me again later?
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Are you sure this was not part of the changelog which was publicy available prior to the iOS 15 update?
Yeah, there's a reasonably visible message "warning" you of this, which has a prompt to turn it off.
I actually thought this was very old, added a year or so ago. I guess it got delayed?
I've had two phones stolen (right out of my hands) that were immediately shut down and sim cards ejected to prevent them from being tracked. While I'm sure this feature wouldn't help me get back a phone, I hope it does deter this.
Edit: I think this was announced back in 2019 WWWDC https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluet... ?
I actually thought this was very old, added a year or so ago. I guess it got delayed?
I've had two phones stolen (right out of my hands) that were immediately shut down and sim cards ejected to prevent them from being tracked. While I'm sure this feature wouldn't help me get back a phone, I hope it does deter this.
Edit: I think this was announced back in 2019 WWWDC https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluet... ?
It was just added a few days ago, not a year ago.
someone can just wrap your phone in aluminum foil, bye bye phone.
And they may, but the effort to steal an iPhone has been increased with this, and the difficulty in recovering a lost (not necessarily stolen) iPhone has been decreased. It's a win for the typical consumer.
Even getting around Activation Lock on a stolen iPhone is probably a lot of hassle unless you know a guy who knows a guy who can unlock it for you
The police in my country wouldn't even bother to check, they have rapists and drug dealers to deal with.
Yeah I'm baffled by all of the comments saying that this is great as an anti-theft feature. I don't know where people live that that's the case, but I sure as heck have never known police in the US to give a damn about $1000 property crimes. They don't care about $20000 home robberies and car thefts, even with strong video or other evidence. I can't imagine they're going to start chasing down criminals to get a used phone back unless it's for the mayor's kid or something.
I was visiting a friend in Switzerland a few years ago, and her bag got stolen right off the back of her chair while we were in a restaurant. (The guy was quick and sneaky; by the time I ran out to the street, he was gone.)
The restaurant manager called the police, and over the next 15 minutes we learned that the thief went on to try to rob the wrong person at another restaurant a couple blocks away. The intended victim held the guy down until the police arrived. The restaurant manager led us over to the other restaurant.
The police managed to recover nearly everything that was stolen, by going through the guy's pockets, and also doing a search in a nearby alleyway, where he had dumped my friend's bag and some of the less-concealable items he'd stolen from people. One thing (can't remember what) was still missing from my friend's bag, and the police took down information about it and told her who to contact to follow up in case it was found.
It was easily the best experience I've ever had with police anywhere (I live in the US but travel fairly frequently). I wish all police could be like that. (Granted, this was just a single experience with two specific officers; who knows if the rest in their precinct or even country are on average that good. But it was definitely encouraging.)
I recount this to suggest that in places with police that don't suck, maybe this sort of thing could actually be a decent anti-theft feature. But agreed that police in the US don't care. I was once mugged and had $3000 worth of stuff stolen from me (laptop and two phones), and the police clearly filed my report to /dev/null. Another friend of mine had her iPad stolen once, and she ended up tracking it down on her own (not the safest thing she's done) because the police told here there was "nothing they could do" even though she showed them the tracking information.
The restaurant manager called the police, and over the next 15 minutes we learned that the thief went on to try to rob the wrong person at another restaurant a couple blocks away. The intended victim held the guy down until the police arrived. The restaurant manager led us over to the other restaurant.
The police managed to recover nearly everything that was stolen, by going through the guy's pockets, and also doing a search in a nearby alleyway, where he had dumped my friend's bag and some of the less-concealable items he'd stolen from people. One thing (can't remember what) was still missing from my friend's bag, and the police took down information about it and told her who to contact to follow up in case it was found.
It was easily the best experience I've ever had with police anywhere (I live in the US but travel fairly frequently). I wish all police could be like that. (Granted, this was just a single experience with two specific officers; who knows if the rest in their precinct or even country are on average that good. But it was definitely encouraging.)
I recount this to suggest that in places with police that don't suck, maybe this sort of thing could actually be a decent anti-theft feature. But agreed that police in the US don't care. I was once mugged and had $3000 worth of stuff stolen from me (laptop and two phones), and the police clearly filed my report to /dev/null. Another friend of mine had her iPad stolen once, and she ended up tracking it down on her own (not the safest thing she's done) because the police told here there was "nothing they could do" even though she showed them the tracking information.
This actually reminded me of a couple positive experiences I had with police in Mexico. They weren't sitatuations where I'd been robbed so not totally analagous, but twice I dealt with officers that were very thoughtful and helpful.
Living in the US has probably skewed my impressions of police generally.
Living in the US has probably skewed my impressions of police generally.
In the US, their actual job is filing the report. Anything that goes beyond that is PR.
Your experience is not a pan-european thing by the way. Get your bag/wallet robbed in Barcelona and the police will just roll their eyes at you and give you a report for your insurance.
In my country, I've seen a person enter a police station asking for his phone, which he knew to be there because of a finder feature (not sure if it was Find my Phone in an iPhone specifically). The police must had taken the phone from someone who was caught stealing in a different incident or something.
I've had an iPhone stolen twice (both times it was my wife's actually). And both times I've recovered it using Find My. Honestly, it didn't even occur to me to involve the police. I just fired up the Find My app as soon as she told me the phone was missing, and I hunted it down. Confrontations ensued on both occasions, but nothing too serious.
In my country, the police came to my house when I dropped my wallet.
I strongly believe "Find My iPhone" has made iPhones significantly less valuable on the resale market and will have reduced thefts
I strongly believe "Find My iPhone" has made iPhones significantly less valuable on the resale market and will have reduced thefts
More specifically: Activation Lock. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201365
> In my country
I often see people here referring to their country without mentioning the actual country, i.e. they hide the interesting detail, which I find weird. Why not to write "in Iceland..." instead? Or is it a privacy thing or just some kind of modesty?
I often see people here referring to their country without mentioning the actual country, i.e. they hide the interesting detail, which I find weird. Why not to write "in Iceland..." instead? Or is it a privacy thing or just some kind of modesty?
Because very often, any time anybody mentions their country it is quickly dismissed as "not applicable, because nobody but OP lives there".
That aside, there was a massive decrease in iPhone thefts when activation locking was introduced with the original “find my”.
Something like this could further deter the portion of thefts that end up funnelling through shady resellers.
Something like this could further deter the portion of thefts that end up funnelling through shady resellers.
It serves as anti-theft insofar as it makes it more of a pain generally to be in possession of a stolen phone.
But yeah the police are not going to go get your iPhone back for you.
But yeah the police are not going to go get your iPhone back for you.
Lets not generalize, shall we? Police here in The Netherlands take care of stolen bikes. Its just a low success rate which skews our perception.
And here in America, I got literally laughed at by my small-town police force as a teenager when I went to them with the exact house my stolen bike was sitting outside of.
The Dutch police want to avoid that civilians 'play their own judge'. If the perpetrator and/or stolen object can be positively ID'ed this is a big plus for the public prosecutor to give a go ahead. What can happen then, is that the police try to buy the stolen good, catching the perpetrator red handed. This is the most effective path of getting a case succesfully put to trial. However, it is going to differ per local jurisdiction. Some Dutch police do have man power issues as well, just like some of USA has.
On a side note: I don't like the attitude of laughing at civilians/victims who the police officer is supposed to serve. Its a kind of negative attitude which devalues the victims interest (I don't like the word toxic but others would apply it here), eventually harming trust in police in the process which (long term) benefits criminals. And what I also don't like is when such is generalized on all police, all around the world.
The way you were treated flat out sucks.
On a side note: I don't like the attitude of laughing at civilians/victims who the police officer is supposed to serve. Its a kind of negative attitude which devalues the victims interest (I don't like the word toxic but others would apply it here), eventually harming trust in police in the process which (long term) benefits criminals. And what I also don't like is when such is generalized on all police, all around the world.
The way you were treated flat out sucks.
Police in the US don't investigate any but very expensive property crime against individuals, either. And I don't actually know that they investigate very expensive property crime—I just assume they do. Certainly mid-five-figures of theft from multiple locations by one crew with tons of video evidence isn't enough to get them interested, beyond taking the report.
... unless your country is the US, in which case, yeah, true.
... unless your country is the US, in which case, yeah, true.
Yeah, I'm sure the police wouldn't check either. I'm sure it wouldn't help me get my phone back but (perhaps paradoxically?) I hope it at least is a bit of a deterrent.
Your police investigate rapes? Ours don't.
https://www.wnyc.org/story/nypd-misled-public-about-response...
https://www.wnyc.org/story/nypd-misled-public-about-response...
This comment could not be anymore hyperbolic.
Texas sat on untested rape kits for two decades
https://www.texasobserver.org/activist-and-rape-survivor-lav...
It's getting a bit better, but it's still a problem:
https://www.nycsouthpaw.com/p/texas-still-has-thousands-of-u...
https://www.texasobserver.org/activist-and-rape-survivor-lav...
It's getting a bit better, but it's still a problem:
https://www.nycsouthpaw.com/p/texas-still-has-thousands-of-u...
Agreed. Of all the messiness in iOS's settings app, it's honestly pretty easy to find the setting to turn this off (iCloud > Find My > Find My network). The Twitter thread almost reads like someone who's trying to not understand what's happening.
Not to mention the fact that there's a reminder of this setting every time you turn your phone off, which can be tapped to disable this behavior.
Not to mention the fact that there's a reminder of this setting every time you turn your phone off, which can be tapped to disable this behavior.
Settings -> (Your Name/Apple ID ...) -> Find My -> Find My iPhone -> Find My Network in latest iOS.
Does 5 levels deep count as easy to find?
Yes, because the levels are a super obvious progression unless you're being deliberately obtuse.
You must be a fan of the Sony camera menu system too
A setting that you would only touch once, versus a device where you are constantly adjusting the settings.
Your argument here is pathetically transparent.
Your argument here is pathetically transparent.
pffft. you're taking things way too seriously my friend. i don't care how often it is/is not used, 5 levels deep is deep. it's just not well designed not that it's intentionally hidden. your obtuseness to this fact is even more pathetic
Pffft indeed.
You seem to be the only one having trouble with it. Think about that.
You seem to be the only one having trouble with it. Think about that.
You can just type "Find" in the huge text field at the top to filter out settings items. I rarely drop levels deep for anything.
I tried this and it specifically didn't work for me. I also coudln't find where it was (I was expecting in the privacy > location settings). Eventually found it, but I was surprised at how much I struggled.
From the power off menu, it gives you a temporary off button: https://files.catbox.moe/wd48tu.png
That's like someone saying that fire is hot, but you respond with you can turn down the flame on the stove. While that may be true, you've completely dodged the original question.
Alternatively: just search "find my" from the universal search menu, no need to even be inside the Settings app.
The setting to tell my phone to turn all the way off when I turn it off is in under "iCloud" settings and is called "Find my network", and that's considered "pretty easy to find"?
No, the giant dialogue that appears when you turn off the phone, and tells you how to disable the feature is pretty easy to find.
What did the parent poster mean when he said "it's honestly pretty easy to find the setting to turn this off (iCloud > Find My > Find My network)"? Or are you disagreeing with him that it's "pretty easy to find" in the settings?
I'm generally of the impression that any phone with an unremovable battery is never truly "off" at any given time, unless the battery is totally damaged.
PS: I like phones whose batteries are removable, currently use a Nokia Android with a removable one. One advantage is that when the phone drops down, it disintegrates, frame from battery, decreasing the overall impact on the phone.
PS: I like phones whose batteries are removable, currently use a Nokia Android with a removable one. One advantage is that when the phone drops down, it disintegrates, frame from battery, decreasing the overall impact on the phone.
A fair impression to remain under, I think.
I remember using a low-energy bluetooth scanner and noticing a strange mac that shouldn't have been present. I really wanted to know wtf was broadcasting it. I searched and searched looking in stupid places. Eventually I settled down and began thinking clearly and looked at my speaker. Yeah, it was as off as the power button could make it, though still on. A good toss across the multi-acre yard and the signal faded accordingly.
I remember using a low-energy bluetooth scanner and noticing a strange mac that shouldn't have been present. I really wanted to know wtf was broadcasting it. I searched and searched looking in stupid places. Eventually I settled down and began thinking clearly and looked at my speaker. Yeah, it was as off as the power button could make it, though still on. A good toss across the multi-acre yard and the signal faded accordingly.
You can drop the phone in an RF blocking bag if you want to go off the grid.
The lack of signal is a sign that OP wants to go off the grid intentionaly, which is suspicious behaviour. There is no plausible deniability.
Data point: I'm an iphone user of average intelligence and attention span (you'll have to take my word for it), and I'm sure I saw this dialog. But if you'd asked me five minutes ago whether my iphone was findable when it was powered off, I'd have said "of course not, that's what being powered off means". So, either it's my fault for not having an eidetic memory about system dialogs I saw 11 months ago, or it's not a great design.
But whenever you go to the power down mode a warning about offline location is displayed. There’s no need for an eidetic memory.
If that was a trick, it worked. No dialog though.
Just checked (on the latest OS) and there's text right beneath the slider you use to turn it off. Tapping the link indicator in the text pops it up.
Wow, first I've heard of it. Seems to be enabled by default too -- I think users definitely are not "clear" about it.
The "slide to power off" prompt literally says "iPhone Findable after Power Off >" right under it every time, but 99% of users will never see it or care about this feature because no one ever turns their phone off.
But if you're one of those few people who does turn the phone off, it says right there, and you can tap on it to shut down to unfindable state this time instead.
Note that it requires a passcode to disable, which is key to this feature. If someone steals your phone it will remain findable unless they open it up and pull the battery.
But if you're one of those few people who does turn the phone off, it says right there, and you can tap on it to shut down to unfindable state this time instead.
Note that it requires a passcode to disable, which is key to this feature. If someone steals your phone it will remain findable unless they open it up and pull the battery.
Which model? I don't see this on my XR (iOS 15), maybe it doesn't have the hardware for it?
> If someone steals your phone it will remain findable unless they open it up and pull the battery.
Or drop the phone into a faraday bag?
> If someone steals your phone it will remain findable unless they open it up and pull the battery.
Or drop the phone into a faraday bag?
> I don't see this on my XR (iOS 15), maybe it doesn't have the hardware for it?
It does not. iPhones 11 or newer.
It does not. iPhones 11 or newer.
defeated by a $5 wrench attack à la XKCD
I turn off my phone but never that way. It either runs out of power or I hard reset it. Either way I don't want it spying on me.
> Either way I don't want it spying on me.
then turn it off? most people will want this, and for those who don't it's easy to turn off.
then turn it off? most people will want this, and for those who don't it's easy to turn off.
> Either way I don't want it spying on me.
It literally isn't spying on you, it's allow you to find your after you've lost it.
It literally isn't spying on you, it's allow you to find your after you've lost it.
>It literally isn't spying on you, it's allow you to find your after you've lost it.
almost no mobile device has a feature that is 'literally spying on you'.
the problem is when the devices have so many features that they can be easily turned into a consummate spy device by any nearby paying agency.
in other words : no mobile device is spying on you, but the people who control them definitely do, and they're often willing to sell the rights to do so to groups that are poorly vetted -- using a device with less capabilities necessarily gives the controlling party less options by which to gather data for whatever reasons they may be compelled to do so.
so.. the phone, lacking sovereignty , does not spy on you; but it's a big leaky gps/imu-enabled microphone camera that sits in your pocket or purse all day, and the list of groups with access to that leaky data-pipe increases every day with little concern and little reform regarding data retention policies and ownership rights.
almost no mobile device has a feature that is 'literally spying on you'.
the problem is when the devices have so many features that they can be easily turned into a consummate spy device by any nearby paying agency.
in other words : no mobile device is spying on you, but the people who control them definitely do, and they're often willing to sell the rights to do so to groups that are poorly vetted -- using a device with less capabilities necessarily gives the controlling party less options by which to gather data for whatever reasons they may be compelled to do so.
so.. the phone, lacking sovereignty , does not spy on you; but it's a big leaky gps/imu-enabled microphone camera that sits in your pocket or purse all day, and the list of groups with access to that leaky data-pipe increases every day with little concern and little reform regarding data retention policies and ownership rights.
I’m not entirely sure what your point is here. Clearly an sophisticated electronic devices full of sensors and radios can be used to track you, I don’t think anyone on HN disputes that. But that issues seems rather orthogonal to topic at hand.
Either way I don't want it spying on me.
This is nothing to do with iOS.
A cell provider can triangulate any phone connected to its network.
A cell provider can triangulate any phone connected to its network.
I think they knew that, as they mentioned they could get the location that way. Though Apple can’t use AirTags to triangulate positions, since they are just uncorrelated random number to Apple—only once they are decrypted locally can your device find the location of another device that it knows about.
The other way to be aware of by which websites do get location though is from GeoIP.
The other way to be aware of by which websites do get location though is from GeoIP.
Hard reset doesn't have anything to do with this since it turns back on afterward. As far as letting the battery die, I think it's going to be much more common that someone loses their phone, the battery is dead, and this helps them figure out "whoops, I left it at the bar we went to after dinner."
The power reserve for this only lasts a few hours, but if you don't want that feature you can turn it off.
The power reserve for this only lasts a few hours, but if you don't want that feature you can turn it off.
Not that it really matters but mine does not say "iPhone Findable after Power Off" under the slider and I have find my iPhone enabled on 14.8.
14.8 won't be findable after power off, it's an iOS 15 feature. When "turned off" it can maintain an occasional bluetooth beacon like AirTags which other iPhones pick up.
Thanks, that makes sense. I don't immediately upgrade so I haven't seen that yet.
Running 14.7.1 and the Find My network setting says that it will enable my iphone to be found when turned off, but the power off screen does not say anything about that.
You might want to double check the text under that toggle in 14.7. I’m pretty sure it says:
“Participating in the Find My network let’s you locate your phone even when it’s offline”
It don’t it says anything about what happens if your phone is off.
“Participating in the Find My network let’s you locate your phone even when it’s offline”
It don’t it says anything about what happens if your phone is off.
My mistake, you are right that is what it says.
Also worth mentioning: express transit pass/ student card system still works after the phone has switched itself off (i.e. reserve mode) It'll work for up to 8 hours until the phone is completely out of juice.
If someone farts, do you react differently if they give you a heads up during release?
I'll have to write this one down, right next to "If your friend jumps off a cliff, do you too?". I'd call this category "the motherisms". :)
That is the perfectest analogy. Thank you, dear sir (madam)!
Some Android phone do this too to let NFC being usable when the phone is off.
> I'm not sure why this is presented as some new thing, or a gotcha or whatever this is.
hmmm maybe because a monopolistic firm is repurposing the term 'power off'?
hmmm maybe because a monopolistic firm is repurposing the term 'power off'?
Because frankly a lot of us didn't know about it. Not everyone is aware of the same things. Some of us think that powering off a device should power it off.
> And IMO, it's a positive change although it does sound a little weird.
It's a negative change that I didn't know about and yes, it is weird/wrong.
It's a negative change that I didn't know about and yes, it is weird/wrong.
I prefer to be able to locate my lost phone even if its powered off.
i'd like to be able to store a phone on the shelf with a properly conditioned battery, to be able to disable the radios during flight, or frankly anywhere else I don't want to be located.
Interesting how different people have different desires.
Interesting how different people have different desires.
"very clear" is an overstatement. TFA is an industry-leading expert expressing surprise at this state of affairs.
What is not clear about the message that says exactly what this?
I went to settings where you can toggle Find My Phone. It doesn’t say there that it’ll be findable even after I switched it off.
I went to next screen it doesn’t even say it there.
Then I clicked on “About Find My & Privacy..” it opened a huge T&C kinda thing text screen and I read until 3-4 paragraphs. It doesn’t mention it there either.
So I think it’s a problem and Apple is anything but clear/straightforward about it.
I went to next screen it doesn’t even say it there.
Then I clicked on “About Find My & Privacy..” it opened a huge T&C kinda thing text screen and I read until 3-4 paragraphs. It doesn’t mention it there either.
So I think it’s a problem and Apple is anything but clear/straightforward about it.
Maybe they started showing the warnings recently, but this practice was in place for at least a few years.
I remember reading an article by a journalist who was on a trip and his iPhone died. Later he discovered it still logged his locations, not only when off, but when dead (I assume the iPhone is designed to shut off with some juice left)
Logging locations and being remotely findable are two separate features.
> Ford flipped the switch which he saw was now marked "Mode Execute Ready" instead of the now old-fashioned "Access Standby" which had so long ago replaced the appallingly stone-aged "Off".
- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Don't give Boeing any more ideas.
This article has me wondering if I’ve ever turned my phone off besides restarting it or the battery died. I’m sure I have but I bet it is very uncommon.
That being said, if it were off and lost, this feature would be amazing. Apple is very transparent about it and also allows you to disable it as far as I remember.
The OP has a follow up tweet that iOS 15 made their phone hot during charging. Kind of feels like they might just not be having a good time with their new iPhone or is trying a little too hard to capture some Apple outrage attention. There are better things in the ecosystem to complain about in my opinion but to each their own.
That being said, if it were off and lost, this feature would be amazing. Apple is very transparent about it and also allows you to disable it as far as I remember.
The OP has a follow up tweet that iOS 15 made their phone hot during charging. Kind of feels like they might just not be having a good time with their new iPhone or is trying a little too hard to capture some Apple outrage attention. There are better things in the ecosystem to complain about in my opinion but to each their own.
There is an obvious trend on HN turning against Apple since the image hash stuff. Search 'Apple' in the last month and you'll see stories about Apple screwing over blind people, copying other people's ideas, screwing over employees, removing apps from the app store, disabling FaceID if you try to change the screen etc.
From my POV (a non-Apple user) they have not changed, they have always been pretty anti-consumer. But even I can see that most of these stories have a clear agenda and are exaggerated to capture the current anti-Apple outrage sentiment. That kind of discussion doesn't do anyone any favours.
From my POV (a non-Apple user) they have not changed, they have always been pretty anti-consumer. But even I can see that most of these stories have a clear agenda and are exaggerated to capture the current anti-Apple outrage sentiment. That kind of discussion doesn't do anyone any favours.
Agreed, I'm getting whiplash from how quickly I've found myself on the "actually this isn't that terrible" side of every Apple thread.
Apple is just the latest fun punching bag. Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, etc. People love to hop on the pitchfork bandwagon.
Except* for Comcast. FUCK Comcast.
* And also EA.
Except* for Comcast. FUCK Comcast.
* And also EA.
This. I could get infinity upvotes by constantly shitting on googles lack of support and ban bots. HN is starting to feel like an eco chaimber
Starting? On certain topics it’s been an echo chamber for a while. I personally stick around because sometimes there are incredible comments and articles that I never would’ve found otherwise. But I’d say a lot of HN in the past few years especially have been echo chambers.
There is a normal trend that Apple users want to deny reality and downvote or flag facts articles about zero days, or articles about bad developer relations or articles about bad relations with security researchers. Then you had Apple vs Epic that also released some dirt on Apple so is normal that the number of Articles on Apple is larger this year(I did not checked) and add on that the CSAM failed launch and I can see some Apple power users getting frustrated)
We always have an article about Facebook and Google when something bad or interesting is happening and I thionk this article qualifies because from the comments it is clear that the majority of people if asked "if the iPhone is powerd off if it really off? " would have said Yes, because we are used to power off to mean off and sleep like state to be labeled different.
We always have an article about Facebook and Google when something bad or interesting is happening and I thionk this article qualifies because from the comments it is clear that the majority of people if asked "if the iPhone is powerd off if it really off? " would have said Yes, because we are used to power off to mean off and sleep like state to be labeled different.
[deleted]
Saying that the company with consumer products that consumers love is "anti-consumer" reduces the meaning of "anti" to be pretty much useless.
They might be anti-you as a consumer, but I for one very much like this feature and feel that Apple was more transparent than they needed to be in this case, so they are certainly not anti-consumer to me (a consumer).
They might be anti-you as a consumer, but I for one very much like this feature and feel that Apple was more transparent than they needed to be in this case, so they are certainly not anti-consumer to me (a consumer).
Sure, I'm talking about their practices of using proprietary cables and not allowing parts to be replaced, forcing all apps to use Safari, not allowing scripting in their apps, making in-app payments difficult etc. But I fully accept that for many consumers these things are non-issues. So 'anti-_me_ as a consumer' might be a better phrasing.
It's helping show people that "they have always been pretty anti-consumer".
Almost all of the digs at Apple have been things that apply industry wide and it is an interesting observation. There was one recently worded something like "EU to require Apple to update phones for 7 years" but if you look at the actual proposal, it applies to all phone makers and Apple is the only one anywhere close to compliant to this proposal.
Other scandals like Samsung disabling the cameras when unlocking the boot loader go practically unnoticed. Almost everything said about Apple is true and I don't dispute that, but people seem to believe that Apple is the only one using questionable labor, gluing in batteries, or applying software restrictions when it's basically industry standard right now.
Other scandals like Samsung disabling the cameras when unlocking the boot loader go practically unnoticed. Almost everything said about Apple is true and I don't dispute that, but people seem to believe that Apple is the only one using questionable labor, gluing in batteries, or applying software restrictions when it's basically industry standard right now.
That’s because you pay more attention to news relating to Apple.
As someone with little general interest in the smartphone market, the digs seem to be pretty widespread nowadays. Samsung did indeed take flack for disabling the camera. Complains about the Play Store and Google anticompetitive behaviors are common and Apple is often in the press due to their high profile legal battle with Epic.
As someone with little general interest in the smartphone market, the digs seem to be pretty widespread nowadays. Samsung did indeed take flack for disabling the camera. Complains about the Play Store and Google anticompetitive behaviors are common and Apple is often in the press due to their high profile legal battle with Epic.
I don't know I feel Apple really got worse than the competition.
It started with "You are holding it wrong.", horrible keyboards, "you need to use USB-C for everything, except our iphones come with lighting + old USB cables", to charge your mouse you need to plugin the cable on the bottom etc.
That's kind of standard.
Yet, the recent moves: Snitch Software that works against the user with a worldwide localization network + no care about security at all.
I mean after Pegasus hit the news, Apple announced their picture scanning initiative. They didn't acknowledge or try to fix their horrible bounty program (compared to Microsoft and Google) and waited for a non-profit (awesome Citizen Lab) to find and fix their bug ... (a 0 click in iMessage)
That's not industry standard for me.
Yet, the recent moves: Snitch Software that works against the user with a worldwide localization network + no care about security at all.
I mean after Pegasus hit the news, Apple announced their picture scanning initiative. They didn't acknowledge or try to fix their horrible bounty program (compared to Microsoft and Google) and waited for a non-profit (awesome Citizen Lab) to find and fix their bug ... (a 0 click in iMessage)
That's not industry standard for me.
This is sort of more of the same as what I was saying. Android phones have horrible hardware flaws and they don't gain much attention. At the same time as "You are holding it wrong" Nexus 5x phones where bricking due to bad NAND chips. Nexus 6P phones where crashing due to battery issues similar to the iphone but they did not throttle the phone and left it to crash. Samsung had phones that would explode in to fireballs. Samsung's flip phones crack at the fold and are extremely expensive to fix. Google Photos has been doing the exact same image scanning for the whole lifetime of the product and no one noticed or cared.
All OEMs have had hardware issues or scandals but they are all quickly forgotten while any fault on an iPhone becomes memorialized forever. They were all real faults but they weren't ever any worse than the rest, only more news worthy.
There are an endless
All OEMs have had hardware issues or scandals but they are all quickly forgotten while any fault on an iPhone becomes memorialized forever. They were all real faults but they weren't ever any worse than the rest, only more news worthy.
There are an endless
Apple should have fixed these things with their iron grip on their production line. They shouldn't have had malfunctioning GPUs or CPU's shorting because they're too close to the display's power line, and they certainly shouldn't have dragged out the USB-C transition on iPhone so long. But they have, and it's always the same bullshit excuses that nobody wants to hear from the most powerful company in the world. These devices start to lose their 'magic' once you understand how the sausage is made (and at what cost), so I think criticism of them is perfectly warranted. Imagine how silly you'd look 15 years ago if you tried arguing that Microsoft didn't have a browser monopoly, or even today if you tried defending Facebook for 'trying their hardest'. It's all lip-service when your company is thousands of people large.
yes, aggree with you on the hardware.
yet, what's new for me is the combination of not caring about security, scanning on your phone (not in the cloud) and implementing a world wide localization network.
the road to hell is plastered with good intentions ...
yet, what's new for me is the combination of not caring about security, scanning on your phone (not in the cloud) and implementing a world wide localization network.
the road to hell is plastered with good intentions ...
>scanning on your phone (not in the cloud)
The scanning only touches photos which are stored on iCloud. Yes it does it on your phone but the reality is the same on iCloud or Google Photos. Both Apple and Google can push out changes live to every phone without warning, so what they may do in the future doesn't really matter. Only what they claim to be doing now. This is actually a more privacy friendly approach because it would be compatible with encrypted cloud storage.
The scanning only touches photos which are stored on iCloud. Yes it does it on your phone but the reality is the same on iCloud or Google Photos. Both Apple and Google can push out changes live to every phone without warning, so what they may do in the future doesn't really matter. Only what they claim to be doing now. This is actually a more privacy friendly approach because it would be compatible with encrypted cloud storage.
again the scanning is implemented on the phone. That's what matters for me. I have some code on my device that works as snitch against me. That might just be a feeling and irrational, yet I really don't want that.
I know how it works. I don't use google photos. I don't WANT to use icloud ... Maybe I'm just too stupid, yet I enabled iCloud several times by accident due to updates/new devices. That won't happen with my grapheneOS nexus5 :)
If you care about privacy and security, you need to leave iOS as quickly as you can ... 2 days ago: https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5gan4/apple-still-investiga...
https://edwardsnowden.substack.com/p/all-seeing-i
I know how it works. I don't use google photos. I don't WANT to use icloud ... Maybe I'm just too stupid, yet I enabled iCloud several times by accident due to updates/new devices. That won't happen with my grapheneOS nexus5 :)
If you care about privacy and security, you need to leave iOS as quickly as you can ... 2 days ago: https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5gan4/apple-still-investiga...
https://edwardsnowden.substack.com/p/all-seeing-i
[deleted]
> trying a little too hard to capture some Apple outrage attention.
Exactly the vibe I got.
Exactly the vibe I got.
The heat part is especially weird considering androids also go scorched earth when fast or wireless charging. It’s just got phones work currently. And their point about losing 15%, after an update all phones are going to do reinfecting. My Samsung flip drops battery like crazy when not doing anything too. Phones are one of those grass isn’t greener things.
My phone has always run hot after an OS update or syncing to a new phone. My understanding is that the CPU is ramping up during that time, reindexing and the like.
Yep, a lot of it in newer updates is ML stuff (rebuilding personalized neural nets locally on your device), which obviously pegs the "neural engine" in your chip for a while.
I would bet that a lot of owners of newer iPhones don't even know how to turn them off. It used to just require holding down the sleep/power button and then swiping across the screen. On newer iPhones, you have to (in order): hold down one of the volume buttons, then hold down the sleep/power button, then swipe across the screen.
I honestly didn't know this until I just googled it. Apparently what I've been doing (vol+, vol-, sleep/power) is the 'hard reset'.
I honestly didn't know this until I just googled it. Apparently what I've been doing (vol+, vol-, sleep/power) is the 'hard reset'.
You just hold either of the volume buttons + the lock/unlock button for a few seconds. Order doesn't matter.
It definitely was simpler/more discoverable back before they got rid of the home button, since the lock/unlock button wasn't pulling double duty as the Siri launcher. "Hold the button longer to shut down harder" is how computers have worked since forever.
It definitely was simpler/more discoverable back before they got rid of the home button, since the lock/unlock button wasn't pulling double duty as the Siri launcher. "Hold the button longer to shut down harder" is how computers have worked since forever.
Interesting — I wonder why my google search turned up such specific instructions. Looks like there are a number of ways to shut down. I've learned two new ones from this thread!
I just do "Settings > General > Shutdown" instead of remembering the button combinations. It also appears in the search results when you do a Spotlight search for "shut" from the Home Screen.
> This article has me wondering if I’ve ever turned my phone off besides restarting it or the battery died. I’m sure I have but I bet it is very uncommon.
I turned mine off on a 6.5 hour flight when I wanted to ensure I'd have battery later and knew I wasn't going to use it for entertainment in-flight. That's really the only time I've turned my phone off in the past few years.
I turned mine off on a 6.5 hour flight when I wanted to ensure I'd have battery later and knew I wasn't going to use it for entertainment in-flight. That's really the only time I've turned my phone off in the past few years.
In my experience, airplane mode on keeps battery usage at maybe 1% per hour (if you keep the screen off). Has the advantage of being available much faster and that the phone can be used if necessary.
Because of that, I haven't switched off a phone in years (just for swapping Sim cards), airplane mode was always sufficient.
Because of that, I haven't switched off a phone in years (just for swapping Sim cards), airplane mode was always sufficient.
Last time I truly turned off my phone was at a 10 day meditation retreat in 2019.
Umm, isn’t this, like maybe, a good thing? If I want my very expensive iPhone found, I want it found whether it is on or off.
If people are worried about being tracked maybe they should carry around a device that is always broadcasting radio signals to third party towers.
If people are worried about being tracked maybe they should carry around a device that is always broadcasting radio signals to third party towers.
For the vast majority of people in the vast majority of situations, it's a very good thing and is ideal behavior. It is only in conspiratorial "but what if nation states are tracking me" noise that this is cast as a bad thing.
And for those people, you can turn that setting off. It even warns you about it on the power off screen. If you don't trust the setting to actually turn off, then you shouldn't trust anything about the phone and should smash it up with a hammer.
The find my implementation is designed to be completely anonymous.
As in apple cannot find your phone, it requires your credentials which iirc includes iCloud account and device unlock code.
As in apple cannot find your phone, it requires your credentials which iirc includes iCloud account and device unlock code.
People who attended the 06Jan rally and were not even on the Capitol grounds had their phones tracked. Some of them got a SWAT visit in the wee hours weeks later.
It’s not so far fetched.
I’ll also mention that Ćhina will find this new feature very helpful and are no doubt grateful.
It’s not so far fetched.
I’ll also mention that Ćhina will find this new feature very helpful and are no doubt grateful.
Right, exactly. It's a phone. It's gonna be tracked anyway. This feature is not moving the needle when it comes to how easily you are tracked by a nation state, but it does move the needle when it comes to "finding your lost/stolen phone that is powered off".
I personally just think it has a harmful effect on the metaphor of being "off". For the longest time, a device being 'off' was synonymous with being unplugged or unpowered, rendered fully nonfunctional. We worked really hard to build the metaphor of 'sleeping' devices to compliment this, and I think letting Find My run while a device is sleeping is perfectly fine. I worry for the end user though, who now has to tabulate the capabilities of their device in their head every time they power off.
Big GDP nation states have teams harvesting 0-days around the clock and can go above the law to insider negotiate or bruteforce backdoors for this 'always on' functionality I'd imagine (what company can say no to the highest levels of government interference?), regardless of if it is offered to the public or not as a new 'feature' for their benefit.
Maybe you don't want to be tracked sometimes, and you expect turning off your device to turn it off.
> you expect turning off your device to turn it off.
When you turn your phone off there is a message that states:
When you turn your phone off there is a message that states:
iPhone Findable After Power Off >
iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off
Find my helps you locate this iPhone when it is lost or stolen, even after power off
The location is visible in Find My on your other devices and to people in Family Sharing you share location with.
You can temporarily turn off Find My network and it will resume when this iPhone is turned on again
[OK] [Temporarily Turn Off Finding]
Mine has no such message, and I'm on iOS 15. I just tested it. Any idea why?
It's only supported on iPhone 11, 12, and 13 series.
I have iPhone 11. But anyway I figured it out. The message does not show unless you have bluetooth turned on.
I don’t think all devices support it. My iPhone XS doesn’t show the message, and under the find my toggle it says “Participating in the Find My network let’s you locate your phone even when it’s offline”, rather than when it’s off.
Head to the "Find My" section in the settings, click into "Find My iPhone", and see if "Find My network" is on or off.
If it's off, you won't get the disclaimer, because it's not active.
If it's off, you won't get the disclaimer, because it's not active.
That setting is enabled for me on iOS 15, and yet I have no such message on the power off screen.
slide to power off, Emergency SOS, Cancel
That's it. Nothing appears after I turn it off either.
slide to power off, Emergency SOS, Cancel
That's it. Nothing appears after I turn it off either.
Exactly. For example, when you're a phone thief.
Won't phone thieves just have some faraday bags to pop their winnings into?
Dedicated ones, yes, but their numbers have declined significantly now that the phones can be activation locked.
Opportunistic ones likely won't have such a thing. My wife's phone was once stolen by someone at a hospital lab... after they'd checked in their kid. It was a fairly easy job for the cops to track that down.
Opportunistic ones likely won't have such a thing. My wife's phone was once stolen by someone at a hospital lab... after they'd checked in their kid. It was a fairly easy job for the cops to track that down.
You can remotely brick it. The minute that the thief tries to do anything with the device, it's functionally useless. It needs to be online to be reactived, and if the device is marked stolen, it won't activate.
okay, your phone was stolen and you have location. What next?
The likelihood of the local PD deploying resources to recover your $xxx device is extremely low (non-existent), so will you chase down your thief and confront that stranger? Do you have a weapon that you're prepared to use if the bad guy threatens you with one?
All you have gained is the illusion of safety, while more data is siphoned off your device, even while it is off.
The likelihood of the local PD deploying resources to recover your $xxx device is extremely low (non-existent), so will you chase down your thief and confront that stranger? Do you have a weapon that you're prepared to use if the bad guy threatens you with one?
All you have gained is the illusion of safety, while more data is siphoned off your device, even while it is off.
Or you're an activist attending a protest.
It’s almost strictly better to leave your phone home in that sort of circumstance though. Your phone looks like you stayed home all day, and you don’t need to worry about things like whether any information gets sent out despite being “off”.
Ideally yes. However, people need to communicate and coordinate. Even arranging transportation may be an issue without a phone.
If you're communicating and coordinating while out at this protest then you're being tracked, Find My isn't moving the needle...
You can use your phone to get a ride to a restaurant-heavy district 15 blocks away from the protest, turn your phone off, and walk.
You can use your phone while traveling 1-2 hours to a big city, and then turn it off.
You can use your phone while traveling 1-2 hours to a big city, and then turn it off.
Sure, but if you really want to, you can communicate and coordinate. I know it might sound old and all, but before the mobile phones and pagers, people managed to communicate and coordinate. Admittedly it is not as easy, but it is possible.
It might actually be a good thing to try, and to step back without a mobile phone and unclutter our current model of communication and coordination. It would likely involve more commitments (e.g. "we said that we would meet at that space and time") and less distraction.
It might actually be a good thing to try, and to step back without a mobile phone and unclutter our current model of communication and coordination. It would likely involve more commitments (e.g. "we said that we would meet at that space and time") and less distraction.
I think you would have to leave your phone home a lot more often than on days you don’t want to be nailed to where you are.
Imagine a case where evidence puts you near a protest or crime scene while your phone is home. That’s coincidence, but if your phone also was home only at the three days three similar events happened, it becomes circumstantial evidence.
Imagine a case where evidence puts you near a protest or crime scene while your phone is home. That’s coincidence, but if your phone also was home only at the three days three similar events happened, it becomes circumstantial evidence.
Most of the time protests in America only start involving law breaking, riot police and mass arrests after the sun goes down. I’d never endorse perjury, but an argument of “I decided to spend the evening inside” seems like it ought to be pretty reasonable for most people.
Every phone talks to cell towers, and they always track and log your location.
Or the target of a malicious actor.
Ah the ol' innocent people have nothing to hide argument. Been used by bad faith actors for centuries.
Think of the children!
A more reasonable, good-faith understanding would also account for people who don't want to be tracked. I keep GPS and any location tracking on with all my devices because I don't want them to have any more data on me than I can avoid.
A more reasonable, good-faith understanding would also account for people who don't want to be tracked. I keep GPS and any location tracking on with all my devices because I don't want them to have any more data on me than I can avoid.
The original commenter was proposing that there's multiple perspectives. The replies were all completely ignoring this and adding nothing substantive to the discussion, so I thought a short jokey reply would suffice.
To be serious though: there's a lack of acknowledgement of the functional benefits of tracking by those advocating for control and privacy in this particular instance. The fact is as long as Apple's closed walled-garden is offering actual value to users (FindMyPhone works, and works well, for the common use-case most "consumers" experience day-to-day), while open alternatives are actively sticking their head in the sand around features like this, then closed solutions will prevail.
What's needed is proper discourse on the challenges of e.g. providing practical asset management features that bad actors cannot easily overcome, while at the same time ensuring full user control over their own device and privacy. This is a real world challenge without easy answers: "just turn it all off all the time" is an easy answer, and a cop-out.
If we want to provide quality solutions to e.g. activists, those solutions need to be mature and practical.
To be serious though: there's a lack of acknowledgement of the functional benefits of tracking by those advocating for control and privacy in this particular instance. The fact is as long as Apple's closed walled-garden is offering actual value to users (FindMyPhone works, and works well, for the common use-case most "consumers" experience day-to-day), while open alternatives are actively sticking their head in the sand around features like this, then closed solutions will prevail.
What's needed is proper discourse on the challenges of e.g. providing practical asset management features that bad actors cannot easily overcome, while at the same time ensuring full user control over their own device and privacy. This is a real world challenge without easy answers: "just turn it all off all the time" is an easy answer, and a cop-out.
If we want to provide quality solutions to e.g. activists, those solutions need to be mature and practical.
You cannot be tracked using the Find My network. No one but you can track your phone or tags.
[deleted]
Yes, exactly this.
Imagine à reporter going through an unfriendly country’s airport.
then their location is known anyway
What situation are you going, "I don't want big tech to be tracking me right now"?
Given the prevalence of geofence warrants nowadays, I don’t think the situation needs to be especially nefarious in nature. Perhaps you don’t want to be scrutinized just because you and 370 others were within 300 yards of a crime occurring?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/16/geofence-war...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/16/geofence-war...
My understanding is the power off tracking uses NFC. This is encrypted. If Apple’s documentation is to be believed, the location information cannot be decrypted by law enforcement.
Every situation, but I was trying to frame it more softly because I was expecting a large percentage of these comments to say "I don't just not mind being tracked, I want it now!" and similar thoughts.
The Find My network is designed to not allow Apple to track you using it.
What situation are you happy to let your location data be sold? Will you give the rest of us your location data?
All of them.
Then leave the phone at home. Because knowing which cell a cellular phone is in, is how it works:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
Or use a case that functions as a Faraday cage.
I've found iPhones way too fickle to trust them to stay off. If you plug in a charger or tap the power button they power back on. If you don't want to be tracked turn off your phone and put it in a faraday bag.
I would expect tapping the power button would turn most devices with a power button on. With respect to charging it, for most users that's probably the correct behavior. There are 2 reasons people seem to turn off (not just airplane mode or disabling some things) their phones:
1. To preserve a low battery or because the battery has died.
2. To fully disable the device.
(1) is by far the most common of the two. In that case, once it's charging then turning back on automatically is the desired behavior. In the case of (2), if you have a strong motivation (avoiding detection, for instance) then you'd presumably have done a bit of research or noticed that this happens and make deliberate choices around how you use and charge the device.
1. To preserve a low battery or because the battery has died.
2. To fully disable the device.
(1) is by far the most common of the two. In that case, once it's charging then turning back on automatically is the desired behavior. In the case of (2), if you have a strong motivation (avoiding detection, for instance) then you'd presumably have done a bit of research or noticed that this happens and make deliberate choices around how you use and charge the device.
> I would expect tapping the power button would turn most devices with a power button on.
I believe I was thinking of my older phone. Tapping the home button, perhaps even the volume buttons, would turn it back on. On my Xs, I have to hold down the power button for a few seconds before it would turn on. I find this a bit more reliable if I want my phone to be off for awhile.
I believe I was thinking of my older phone. Tapping the home button, perhaps even the volume buttons, would turn it back on. On my Xs, I have to hold down the power button for a few seconds before it would turn on. I find this a bit more reliable if I want my phone to be off for awhile.
Off should mean off. Sleeping means that it can be woken up, woken up means that it microphones can be turned on and etc.
You should be able to turn off the screen without putting it in sleep mode, but it should still display the microphone light.
No. A device thats "off" should be "off" 100% of the time. When the device wakes it realizes it's been stolen, only then should it reach for home. This behavior can/will only be exploited by hostile nations and other bad actors.
You’re both correct, but Apple is optimizing for the majority with their ‘Find My’ network, where the majority don’t have a threat model which includes exploitation of a target by a nation state actor.
It’s a toggle in Settings to turn off this functionality for those who want the surface area reduction, or an RF shielded bag if you don’t trust the toggle ;)
It’s a toggle in Settings to turn off this functionality for those who want the surface area reduction, or an RF shielded bag if you don’t trust the toggle ;)
I guess that's why it's an option, with (IMHO) a reasonable default of being enabled.
It's a useless feature against theft if it can just be turned off the thief.
It's a useless feature against theft if it can just be turned off the thief.
Most devices never “wake up” after being stolen. Apple’s activation lock means that most stolen iPhone are only good for parts.
If your threat model includes nation state actors, then you should probably be putting electronics in faraday bags if you don’t want to be tracked. For everyone else, the design of the Find My network provides significant protection against misuse.
If your threat model includes nation state actors, then you should probably be putting electronics in faraday bags if you don’t want to be tracked. For everyone else, the design of the Find My network provides significant protection against misuse.
Then turn it off. Personally I’d like it on.
If YOU want that option, that's fine. However, why force everyone to use this? From the comments is seems Apple is pretty aggressive with it and you can only turn it off temporarily.
It's only on if the 'Find My' feature is enabled, and then it can be disabled.
Since when did something being a default setting become something being 'forced' upon users?
It's not "forced" on you at all. You can disable it with one setting change.
Because most customers do want this feature. It’s not being “forced,” it’s just a default.
Phones can be used to eavesdrop even if turned off, as revealed in court proceedings against the Genovese family in the mid-2000's. Called "roving bugs" I think.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2006/12/8343/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2006/12/8343/
“You think you really know what's going on?
They passing laws where they can run up in your own home
Cameras on your laptop, TV and your iPhone
The battery don't come out, that means it's always on”
- B.o.B., “Paper Route”, 2013
One might call him a conspiracy theory rapper. He once got in a Twitter feud with Neil deGrasse Tyson on whether the earth was flat.
They passing laws where they can run up in your own home
Cameras on your laptop, TV and your iPhone
The battery don't come out, that means it's always on”
- B.o.B., “Paper Route”, 2013
One might call him a conspiracy theory rapper. He once got in a Twitter feud with Neil deGrasse Tyson on whether the earth was flat.
He is literally a flat-earther. Saying he "might" be a conspiracy theorist is giving him way more leeway than deserved.
Definitely. What I meant is that one might label his genre as “conspiracy theory rap”.
But they didn't pass laws, people wanted it. No government encouraged people to buy smart speakers, consumers bought them because they liked the convenience.
[deleted]
As stated in https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/find-my/ Apple (or any other third parties) cannot access the actual location data in the Find My network directly. It is supposed to be only decryptable by your other devices.
That is if you trust Apple to design and implement everything correctly.
That is if you trust Apple to design and implement everything correctly.
"The voice came from an oblong metal plaque like a dulled mirror which formed part of the surface of the right-hand wall. . . The instrument (the telescreen, it was called) could be dimmed, but there was no way of shutting it off completely." - 1984.
It is best to treat electronics as always on and always recording and transmitting everything.
It is best to treat electronics as always on and always recording and transmitting everything.
On a related, note Alarms still work even when the phone is "powered off".
I get it because it's saved me once or twice. Nothing serious just reminders for various things. Overall net helpful from my view.
I get it because it's saved me once or twice. Nothing serious just reminders for various things. Overall net helpful from my view.
Is that new in iOS 15? They never used to - it was something I missed when switching from the Nokia ecosystem (Symbian/Meego) to iOS. It's nice for turning your phone off at night but still using it as an alarm clock.
Edit: Just tested it. Sadly it still doesn't work. iOS 15 on an iPhone SE (2016).
Edit: Just tested it. Sadly it still doesn't work. iOS 15 on an iPhone SE (2016).
Yeah I’d be really surprised if alarms worked while the phone is powered off.
It is Real Time Clock (RTC) chip just as found in ATX motherboards since like 1997, very primitive and low powered, so it can't spy on you, just provides autonomous time source. Power-on alarm(s) is RTC's feature as well, merely comparing preset alarm time register(s) with current time register.
Until the alarm on your “powered off” iOS 15 phone goes off in the middle of the chamber music concert.
I don’t understand why the “silent” switch doesn’t mean “completely silent”.
I don’t understand why the “silent” switch doesn’t mean “completely silent”.
Why would you set an alarm for the middle of chamber music concert?
I hoped for some analysts of how it's implemented (there's probably a lot of clever low power-pings and cryptography involved), but the linked Twitter thread is purely "WTF? Get off my lawn!"
If you read down the thread a bit (I’m the author) you’ll see that it’s (probably) implemented by caching cryptographic beacons on the UWB chipset. It’s not documented by Apple, however, which is the reason my thread is a little critical. I think it should be.
Not exactly new.
The old BlackBerries allows you to "turn off" the device and have the alarm wake you up. It basically drops into a low power mode.
It was easy to make a phone dead. You yanked out the batteries.
The old BlackBerries allows you to "turn off" the device and have the alarm wake you up. It basically drops into a low power mode.
It was easy to make a phone dead. You yanked out the batteries.
This is a feature of any device with a battery-backed real time clock (RTC). All x86 machines have this feature.
Pretty much anything with a clock that doesn't need resetting every time you turn it on can do this. An RTC chip is just a super low-power counter, and it costs almost nothing to toss in a wake-time comparator, so all of them do. When you set the wake-time alarm the host CPU really does power down 100% -- right after it sets the RTC chip's wake-time registers.
This is a long, long, long way from a microcontroller. It's not Turing-complete and has only a few dozen bits of storage for the counter. They're also manufactured on incredibly ancient fabrication processes (like 350nm until very recently) for lowest possible leakage.
Pretty much anything with a clock that doesn't need resetting every time you turn it on can do this. An RTC chip is just a super low-power counter, and it costs almost nothing to toss in a wake-time comparator, so all of them do. When you set the wake-time alarm the host CPU really does power down 100% -- right after it sets the RTC chip's wake-time registers.
This is a long, long, long way from a microcontroller. It's not Turing-complete and has only a few dozen bits of storage for the counter. They're also manufactured on incredibly ancient fabrication processes (like 350nm until very recently) for lowest possible leakage.
The old BlackBerrys didn’t even do a full OS startup unless you did a battery pull, I think the “clean” shutdown just hibernated it at best.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake-on-LAN
I never used it, but remember it from BIOS settings.
I never used it, but remember it from BIOS settings.
An iPhone Remains Findable After Power Off ... except when you put it in a Faraday bag when not using it
I manage mobile devices and Macs for work.. And I really love this.
I was having a discussion yesterday about a stolen MacBook Pro. We sent a wipe command and security was concerned that the command never arrived. I explained that it's extremely unlikely to ever arrive because it means the thief is either pretty dumb (connecting the device to a wired ethernet which gives him no benefit while it's locked) or extremely smart (managing to crack the password) but incredibly dumb at the same time (connecting to WiFi after logging in). Because we disable the guest login which Apple uses as "bait" for lost Macs.
Also, all of this applies only if the Mac was sleeping at boot time, otherwise FileVault blocks it from even booting up at all. Meaning no comms to us in any scenario.
However, this AirTag functionality would be amazing for Mac. We could send a wipe command to it even when it's off. The thief could obviously block it with a metal-lined bag but it would move the scenario to something where the thief actively has to do something to make the wipe work, to something where they actively have to do something to prevent the wipe from working.
So, as an enterprise device manager I love this.
However I'm a big privacy advocate as well, and in that scope it's pretty terrible, obviously. However, if it can be switched off (and ideally defaults to off) I'm fine with it.
I was having a discussion yesterday about a stolen MacBook Pro. We sent a wipe command and security was concerned that the command never arrived. I explained that it's extremely unlikely to ever arrive because it means the thief is either pretty dumb (connecting the device to a wired ethernet which gives him no benefit while it's locked) or extremely smart (managing to crack the password) but incredibly dumb at the same time (connecting to WiFi after logging in). Because we disable the guest login which Apple uses as "bait" for lost Macs.
Also, all of this applies only if the Mac was sleeping at boot time, otherwise FileVault blocks it from even booting up at all. Meaning no comms to us in any scenario.
However, this AirTag functionality would be amazing for Mac. We could send a wipe command to it even when it's off. The thief could obviously block it with a metal-lined bag but it would move the scenario to something where the thief actively has to do something to make the wipe work, to something where they actively have to do something to prevent the wipe from working.
So, as an enterprise device manager I love this.
However I'm a big privacy advocate as well, and in that scope it's pretty terrible, obviously. However, if it can be switched off (and ideally defaults to off) I'm fine with it.
Per my understanding this has nothing to do with actual security.
I think nobody steals smartphones anymore for the smartphone itself. Mainly because they are either getting locked or are easily tracked. That is poor business.
What is happening in practice is thieves take sim card out of the phone and try to use it to steal from the owner as much as possible. Log in to bank account, reset passwords on social accounts and ransom money, etc.
I think nobody steals smartphones anymore for the smartphone itself. Mainly because they are either getting locked or are easily tracked. That is poor business.
What is happening in practice is thieves take sim card out of the phone and try to use it to steal from the owner as much as possible. Log in to bank account, reset passwords on social accounts and ransom money, etc.
eSIMs should help avoid this scenario, right?
It's NOT an iOS 15 feature.
I have an iPhone without a SIM card that I use as a test device and it happen that yesterday I left it in my backpack, together with an AirTag in the car. Shortly after I walked off, I got the AirTag notification as expected(the left behind notification). What I did not expect though, was to see the test iPhone also having an up to date location in the Find My app. That iPhone has no network connection, so I assumed that somehow it must have connected to my daily iPhone's hot spot.
And today, I learn that iPhones are capable of sending location even when turned off. So I checked the Find My setting, it's right there on iOS 14.4.2 on iPhone 7.
It's pretty cool, very aggressive tracking. Maybe we need clothes with faraday cage pockets for occasions when we don't like to be tracked.
I have an iPhone without a SIM card that I use as a test device and it happen that yesterday I left it in my backpack, together with an AirTag in the car. Shortly after I walked off, I got the AirTag notification as expected(the left behind notification). What I did not expect though, was to see the test iPhone also having an up to date location in the Find My app. That iPhone has no network connection, so I assumed that somehow it must have connected to my daily iPhone's hot spot.
And today, I learn that iPhones are capable of sending location even when turned off. So I checked the Find My setting, it's right there on iOS 14.4.2 on iPhone 7.
It's pretty cool, very aggressive tracking. Maybe we need clothes with faraday cage pockets for occasions when we don't like to be tracked.
It doesn't connect to your iPhone's hot spot, but your daily iPhone is able to detect the other iPhone's presence just like it detects AirTags and logs that info.
Yes but apparently other iPhones can also detect it and send the location just like with the AirTag even if the iPhone is turned off. That was a surprise.
Was the phone actually off or just missing a SIM card?
That’s the whole point of the feature: being able to track a phone that has been turned off.
If you’re afraid of FBI, CIA or Mossad tracking you with this feature, you can disable this on settings
Nope, I'm happy to be tracked. I actually enabled Google Maps to track me all the time because I would like to be able to
look back at Google Timeline[0] and see where I have been at particular time in the past.
Since a few years, I'm in Turkey and I know that in this country the GSM operators track your location constantly and keep the records indefinitely. How do I know that? Well, in Turkey every SIM card is tied to a proven identity(ID scan is required even for pre-paid SIMs) and getting the GSM signal records to prove whereabouts of someone at particular time has become a standard practice on criminal cases. Everyone is well aware of being tracked by the govt. With Apple and Google, I at least get something out of it.
[0]: https://timeline.google.com/
Since a few years, I'm in Turkey and I know that in this country the GSM operators track your location constantly and keep the records indefinitely. How do I know that? Well, in Turkey every SIM card is tied to a proven identity(ID scan is required even for pre-paid SIMs) and getting the GSM signal records to prove whereabouts of someone at particular time has become a standard practice on criminal cases. Everyone is well aware of being tracked by the govt. With Apple and Google, I at least get something out of it.
[0]: https://timeline.google.com/
Your "test iPhone" was not turned off, it just didn't have a network connection (because it has no SIM card). And yes, that has been a feature for a while – iPhones without an internet connection can still be pinged via the Find My Network. The setting you see is about being "offline", not "power off", which are different things in this context.
The new feature is iPhones being able to be pinged while the power is off. This is indeed an iOS 15 only feature, and also an iPhone 11+ feature, so it is certainly not available on your iPhone 7 running iOS 14.
The new feature is iPhones being able to be pinged while the power is off. This is indeed an iOS 15 only feature, and also an iPhone 11+ feature, so it is certainly not available on your iPhone 7 running iOS 14.
Okay, I think you are right. The power-off thing is new for the newer iPhones with iOS 15, for the older models with older iOS it's available only as "No network but power on".
To use this feature, you have to turn on Find My Network in settings (it is on by default), turning it on also means the device will report other nearby Find My devices like AirTags.
I like to have my phone findable after power off, but I am still not sure whether I want my phone to report other devices.
I like to have my phone findable after power off, but I am still not sure whether I want my phone to report other devices.
Out of interest, what’s your concern with your phone reporting the location of other devices?
You can extract a lot of information by knowing how frequent an AirTag has been approached by random iPhones.
For instance, if I toss an AirTag into my neighbor's yard, I can get some idea on when they leave/return back to the house by monitoring the AirTag's update timestamps. I can later use this data to build their activity patterns and whatnot. I understand that Apple has some mechanism to mitigate this, like "reporting stranger's airtags in frequent accessed locations", but unless it is proven to be reliable, I can't trust it.
For instance, if I toss an AirTag into my neighbor's yard, I can get some idea on when they leave/return back to the house by monitoring the AirTag's update timestamps. I can later use this data to build their activity patterns and whatnot. I understand that Apple has some mechanism to mitigate this, like "reporting stranger's airtags in frequent accessed locations", but unless it is proven to be reliable, I can't trust it.
So... you want to get the benefits of Find My without actually giving back to the network?
This kind of behavior is needed for:
- Public transit and digital IDs. It sucks when phone dies and you can’t get out of a station or show your driver’s license.
- Power management. Power buttons on modern phones are digitally controlled by a microcontroller because actually switching main power by those buttons can glitch the phone.
- Firmware updates. Phone has to be able to handle USB connection to accept new firmware.
- (probably more)
It’s nothing new. Just that it does wireless too now.
- Public transit and digital IDs. It sucks when phone dies and you can’t get out of a station or show your driver’s license.
- Power management. Power buttons on modern phones are digitally controlled by a microcontroller because actually switching main power by those buttons can glitch the phone.
- Firmware updates. Phone has to be able to handle USB connection to accept new firmware.
- (probably more)
It’s nothing new. Just that it does wireless too now.
There's nothing that requires a microcontroller to be active during power-down to handle the issues you describe:
For transit passes and IDs, there need to be non-phone-based ways of handling that issue. It's equally possible to lose / have your phone stolen. Talk to the station agent, or have the police look up your license by name / address.
There's no need for a continuously-running microcontroller to read the power button. It's perfectly possible to have the power button feed power directly from the battery to a bootstrap power management IC, which then takes over supplying power to the main processor.
USB connections supply power, so it's easy to implement having the presence of power on the USB port boot the phone.
For transit passes and IDs, there need to be non-phone-based ways of handling that issue. It's equally possible to lose / have your phone stolen. Talk to the station agent, or have the police look up your license by name / address.
There's no need for a continuously-running microcontroller to read the power button. It's perfectly possible to have the power button feed power directly from the battery to a bootstrap power management IC, which then takes over supplying power to the main processor.
USB connections supply power, so it's easy to implement having the presence of power on the USB port boot the phone.
> For transit passes
It’s interesting, here in the U.K. you have a legal obligation to present a valid ticket upon demand for any train you travel on. Failure to do so for any reason (including my phone died, or I dropped the ticket) is a criminal offence (and I mean criminal, not civil) punishable by a prison sentence.
Some ticket conductors at the end of a long shift hearing endless excuses about why someone doesn’t have a valid ticket really aren’t interested in negotiating. They’re quite happy to enforce the law, and make your life a living hell in the process.
Personally I much prefer it if the transit pass on my phone keeps working after it dies. The alternative is very… inconvenient.
It’s interesting, here in the U.K. you have a legal obligation to present a valid ticket upon demand for any train you travel on. Failure to do so for any reason (including my phone died, or I dropped the ticket) is a criminal offence (and I mean criminal, not civil) punishable by a prison sentence.
Some ticket conductors at the end of a long shift hearing endless excuses about why someone doesn’t have a valid ticket really aren’t interested in negotiating. They’re quite happy to enforce the law, and make your life a living hell in the process.
Personally I much prefer it if the transit pass on my phone keeps working after it dies. The alternative is very… inconvenient.
Meh this sounds like scare mongering. If someone is tired at the end of a long shift, what do you think they are going to want to do more?
a) spend 15 minutes writing up a ticket, and possibly waiting for the police to arrive before handing you over to them
b) take you to the back office and let you sit for 5 minutes while your phone charges
Nobody is going to send you to prison for the first offence of not having a ticket (a physical ticket could be lost or damaged to a point where it is unreadable too). They would probably issue a fine, but you could appeal that. Buying a digital ticket you'd have a digital paper trail showing you bought it - which you wouldn't if you bought a paper ticket.
a) spend 15 minutes writing up a ticket, and possibly waiting for the police to arrive before handing you over to them
b) take you to the back office and let you sit for 5 minutes while your phone charges
Nobody is going to send you to prison for the first offence of not having a ticket (a physical ticket could be lost or damaged to a point where it is unreadable too). They would probably issue a fine, but you could appeal that. Buying a digital ticket you'd have a digital paper trail showing you bought it - which you wouldn't if you bought a paper ticket.
> spend 15 minutes writing up a ticket, and possibly waiting for the police to arrive before handing you over to them
> take you to the back office and let you sit for 5 minutes while your phone charges
Your on a train. There’s no back office, and neither of you are going anywhere in a hurry while it’s moving. They just ask the police to meet them at the next station and hand you over.
> Nobody is going to send you to prison for the first offence of not having a ticket
Prison sentence, probably not, £200 fine and a criminal record, not unlikely. I certainly know people who have found themselves on the wrong side of a TfL ticket conductor, and then found themselves in front of a judge. Train ticket enforcement is a surprisingly disproportionate part of British law.
> take you to the back office and let you sit for 5 minutes while your phone charges
Your on a train. There’s no back office, and neither of you are going anywhere in a hurry while it’s moving. They just ask the police to meet them at the next station and hand you over.
> Nobody is going to send you to prison for the first offence of not having a ticket
Prison sentence, probably not, £200 fine and a criminal record, not unlikely. I certainly know people who have found themselves on the wrong side of a TfL ticket conductor, and then found themselves in front of a judge. Train ticket enforcement is a surprisingly disproportionate part of British law.
Wait... is this currently a thing? Does the transit pass keep working after the phone is off? If that's the case then it must really just be keeping a single unique identifier available and broadcasting it.
Also the easy fix for such an issue is to just poweroff the phone when it has ~5% of the phone power left which most phones already do. Instead of broadcasting its location, transit ID all the time it could just do it when you hold the power button down or something... it would last longer anyway.
Also the easy fix for such an issue is to just poweroff the phone when it has ~5% of the phone power left which most phones already do. Instead of broadcasting its location, transit ID all the time it could just do it when you hold the power button down or something... it would last longer anyway.
Yeah, the phone hand off the express transit cards crypto keys to the NFC chip used for Apple Pay. Allowing the chip to authorise transactions without the CPU getting involved.
So if while you're on a train, someone steals your paper ticket, you're the one who goes to prison?
> Public transit and digital IDs. It sucks when phone dies and you can’t get out of a station or show your driver’s license.
Yeah there's no way I'm using my phone for this stuff even if I had that option. I don't trust batteries, wireless networks and modern software enough. I do use Google Pay, but I always have the physical card just in case.
Yeah there's no way I'm using my phone for this stuff even if I had that option. I don't trust batteries, wireless networks and modern software enough. I do use Google Pay, but I always have the physical card just in case.
Suica on an Apple Watch is one of the most convenient things ever in the Tokyo metro or at a konbini.
Do you have to tap it on a turnstile to exit, or is there a flat fare? And is it a separate card or a clone of your physical one so they're interchangeable?
p.s. I want to visit Japan someday
p.s. I want to visit Japan someday
You have to tap it to exit, the Tokyo metro is not flat fare.
Loading the card into an Apple wallet transfers everything into the device, the card doesn't work after that (IIRC).
Loading the card into an Apple wallet transfers everything into the device, the card doesn't work after that (IIRC).
This is probably my last iPhone and I'll just switch to a dumb phone after this because I can't deal with 'features' like this I can't turn off.
If someone steals your phone all they have to do so you won't find it is to wrap it in aluminium foil.
It's just another barrier. With enough hassle, people will move to stealing other easier things. When find my was released, phone theft went down massively. Not every criminal wants to make the jump from just grabbing a phone off the table, to having an RF blocking bag, transporting to an RF proof room, and then pulling the phone to bits to sell for pennies since the parts don't work properly when swapped in to another phone.
It's not a significant barrier anymore.
For a while now to steal a phone you needed a fence. The fence will just give you a metallised bag and you'll put the phone in it. It's not really more complicated than turning off the phone as thieves already do.
As for the software features, they've always been and will always be bypassable. People figure out how to defeat iCloud Lock, how to change ESN/IMEI/IMSI already. It's easily a 30 million dollar market, people will continue to figure it out.
For a while now to steal a phone you needed a fence. The fence will just give you a metallised bag and you'll put the phone in it. It's not really more complicated than turning off the phone as thieves already do.
As for the software features, they've always been and will always be bypassable. People figure out how to defeat iCloud Lock, how to change ESN/IMEI/IMSI already. It's easily a 30 million dollar market, people will continue to figure it out.
and keep it wrapped till they get to their hideout which is in a faraday cage and then proceed to wipe it and bypass the activation lock.
it's another hassel for thieves which imho is a good thing. Might as well argue "why lock you door when all someone needs is a bump key!"
it's another hassel for thieves which imho is a good thing. Might as well argue "why lock you door when all someone needs is a bump key!"
Except they don't. Thieves don't know how change the ESN of a phone or how to bypass an iCloud Lock. They have fences that either sell the phones for parts or bypass the security features. It's how it works for a few years already now.
The only difference is now instead of turning off the phones they'll put it in a metallized plastic bag.
The only difference is now instead of turning off the phones they'll put it in a metallized plastic bag.
Sure, either way it’s another deterrent.
Also huh you finally gave me a reason why apple may be locking its hardware components now.
Also huh you finally gave me a reason why apple may be locking its hardware components now.
But it's really not. They already have to find a fence beforehand, what does it change if the fence gives you a procedure for turning it off without the password or if they just give you a bag?
Thieves and fences always figure out how to bypass the component lockdowns.
Thieves and fences always figure out how to bypass the component lockdowns.
That's handy. And I am glad that it tells you when you power down, so there are no surprises.
Apple is part of a global conspiracy that is making it harder and harder to get away with murder.
But also harder to get away with protests.
Why does this make it harder to get away with protests?
Or large scale dissent in general.
No apps related to the largest current event that challenge the dominant narratives are alllwrd in the App Store at all.
No apps related to the largest current event that challenge the dominant narratives are alllwrd in the App Store at all.
His next tweet is interesting.
> In other news I updated my phone to iOS 15 and put it down to charge last night. When I woke up it was hot, and my battery has gone from 100% to 15% since 7:30am. I gotta get off this ecosystem.
I mean, if you have tends of thousands of photos you accumulated over the years. I bet scan of these against CP lib will take some time and battery.
> In other news I updated my phone to iOS 15 and put it down to charge last night. When I woke up it was hot, and my battery has gone from 100% to 15% since 7:30am. I gotta get off this ecosystem.
I mean, if you have tends of thousands of photos you accumulated over the years. I bet scan of these against CP lib will take some time and battery.
Apple delayed plans to roll out CSAM scanning, so that is not included in iOS 15.
You are partially right though, in that the likely explanation for this extra power consumption is re-indexing content / rebuilding local neural networks, which use a lot of power (for a day or so, and then they're finished).
So rather than scanning your photos for CP, more likely it's scanning your photos for text or similar as part of the new Live Text feature.
You are partially right though, in that the likely explanation for this extra power consumption is re-indexing content / rebuilding local neural networks, which use a lot of power (for a day or so, and then they're finished).
So rather than scanning your photos for CP, more likely it's scanning your photos for text or similar as part of the new Live Text feature.
it definitely could have been worded better:
"You iPhone continues to report its location to Apple when it is powered off" or something
seems software has gone back to extremely hostile user-facing strings, after about a decade of "oopsie doopsie our system had a crashie"
"You iPhone continues to report its location to Apple when it is powered off" or something
seems software has gone back to extremely hostile user-facing strings, after about a decade of "oopsie doopsie our system had a crashie"
> You iPhone continues to report its location to Apple when it is powered off" or something
This statement wouldn’t be true. The iPhone broadcasts crypto keys over Bluetooth, which other I devices use to encrypt the detected location and upload to Apple.
But the only thing capable of decrypting those encrypted payloads is other devices attached to the same iCloud Keychain.
So Apple has no idea where your phone is, and there’s also no guarantee that a location will ever be uploaded.
This statement wouldn’t be true. The iPhone broadcasts crypto keys over Bluetooth, which other I devices use to encrypt the detected location and upload to Apple.
But the only thing capable of decrypting those encrypted payloads is other devices attached to the same iCloud Keychain.
So Apple has no idea where your phone is, and there’s also no guarantee that a location will ever be uploaded.
Also, has anyone noticed when the battery goes 0% it's actually not 0% inside?
This is awesome, and is a cool enough feature to actually make me upgrade. Love it.
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If you really don’t want it found after turn off, get a nice Faraday bag.
This is being bizarrely (intentionally?) treated as "apple knows where your phone is.
The only person who can find your "findable" device is you.
The find my network is anonymous - even apple cannot find an arbitrary device on it. A malicious agent with a full compromise of apple's networks cannot find your device. Apple cannot be compelled to provide the information because again, apple does not have the ability to.
The TLDR: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/find-my/
The actual technical details: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-se...
The only person who can find your "findable" device is you.
The find my network is anonymous - even apple cannot find an arbitrary device on it. A malicious agent with a full compromise of apple's networks cannot find your device. Apple cannot be compelled to provide the information because again, apple does not have the ability to.
The TLDR: https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/find-my/
The actual technical details: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-se...
Why does Green use an iphone? Some people never learn.
Feature ,not a bug
wtf?! is this true of 5s as well?
I think there's a hardware component required. Unless it's only in a beta OS, I have and Xs and I see a different wording for that setting. Mine omits "and powered off."
Why? wouldn't it just be a matter of activating a low-power mode and turning
off the screen? It's been said a long time that this is done by certain
malwares.
I found an article that specifies phone models and explains why[1]. It's iPhone 11 and 12 because it requires a UWB/U1 chip. This thread (via Craig Federighi)[2] asserts UWB isn't the part that's used, but those phones have a newer Bluetooth chipset.
[1] https://beebom.com/how-find-lost-iphone-turned-off-erased/
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSBeta/comments/otcn02/iphone_rema...
[1] https://beebom.com/how-find-lost-iphone-turned-off-erased/
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSBeta/comments/otcn02/iphone_rema...
Your hardware needs a low-power mode to activate, before you can activate it.
All of the iPhone “off” features, like express transit cards and find my use dedicated low power hardware that seems to be capable of running the feature without an active CPU telling it what to do.
All of the iPhone “off” features, like express transit cards and find my use dedicated low power hardware that seems to be capable of running the feature without an active CPU telling it what to do.
So does my car. And?
Well, unless you’re living under a rock this has been exhaustively discussed when this feature was launched.
I click every global tracking network link out there and am on HN daily and often more time than I perhaps should. This is the first I hear of it. Yeah I really need to get out from under this rock and spend more time on HN.
Well, what you want me to say?
"Oh, maybe it's not as much common knowledge as I thought."
Great feature. Love it. Got the notification when I first turned off my iPhone 13.
Aren't there situations where strict control of electromagnetic emissions is required? Labs, scientific equipment, military sensor work etc?
Maybe, but at that point they would bin everyone's phone in a locker/stored in some controlled room. Also, FMI doesn't work if you have the phone but bluetooth is turned off (as in, turned off in settings; control center only disabled connecting existing devices, but keeps BT on).
One day Apple will sell a stylish iHammer to securely power off the damn thing.
Wonder what else it does or reports to the homebase. Why stop at location data?
It’s weird how it the surveillance apparatus creeps up slowly and gets accepted without much protest. It’s just like the proverbial frog in the boiling pot
But if they actually turned off power, they'd lose track of where you are. They'd lose the tracking information needed for marketing. Can't have that.
Does "airplane mode" still shut off all transmitters?
Does "airplane mode" still shut off all transmitters?
Airplane mode definitely does not disable Bluetooth - especially if you are using airpods or other Bluetooth headsets. BT radio will stay on so you can keep listening through the flight. WiFi is also able to be toggled on while airplane mode is enabled. The only thing that airplane mode does is ostensibly turn off the mobile network connectivity
Do you have any evidence that location tracking actually works when the phone is turned off (even with the Find My Phone feature enabled)?
The data is encrypted with your iCloud Keychain. Apple doesn't have access to it.
I'm not sure why this is presented as some new thing, or a gotcha or whatever this is. We've known about it for months... And IMO, it's a positive change although it does sound a little weird.