Zoroastrians make a comeback in northern Iraq(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Zoroastrians make a comeback in northern Iraq
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-religion-zoroastrianism-idUSKBN26L336
115 comments
There are "reformist" Zoroaustrians who do accept conversion as valid, though you're correct that the more conservative and traditionalist branches do not. Moreover Zoroaustrians have always been around in Central Asia, even though the highest numbers for the religion are found in Persia and India.
Heh, sorry, but that is such a delightful typo in your comment: "Zoroaustrians". Austrian fans of Zoro, perhaps? :)
Yes, and they had a schism between "One Piece" Zoro and "Legend of Zorro" Zorro :P
Austr as in East Rome, I imagine, which is all much closer to the cradle of Christianity than, say, x-mas, as I understand it
It’s the southern branch. Different constellations.
Nope, those would be the Zoroaustralians.
I can confirm that there are Zeroaustralians
toiuoiwerwr(1)
>>> In any case it's hard to see why this is news
It's fascinating! The "psycho-history" style preservation, and indeed flourishing, in Contemporary America of endangered cultures of the Ancient East.
We see a bit of it with ex-pat Turkish communities thriving in NY & PA. And I suspect with the recent influx of Afghan refugees we'll see a renaissance in ancient sources of Pashtun tradition, once freed from the shackles of mythos, and able to engage in free inquiry into their exegesis.
ML of "dead" language corpora is key. It was instrumental in decoding Syriac texts. And I suspect data mining of insights into ancient wisdom and digital archeology advances will only uncover more truth, more controversy. "Is this the real Islam" indeed!
Zoroastrian Global Glossary
https://fezana.org/glossary/
It's fascinating! The "psycho-history" style preservation, and indeed flourishing, in Contemporary America of endangered cultures of the Ancient East.
We see a bit of it with ex-pat Turkish communities thriving in NY & PA. And I suspect with the recent influx of Afghan refugees we'll see a renaissance in ancient sources of Pashtun tradition, once freed from the shackles of mythos, and able to engage in free inquiry into their exegesis.
ML of "dead" language corpora is key. It was instrumental in decoding Syriac texts. And I suspect data mining of insights into ancient wisdom and digital archeology advances will only uncover more truth, more controversy. "Is this the real Islam" indeed!
Zoroastrian Global Glossary
https://fezana.org/glossary/
Zoroastrianism does not limit conversions. If that were the case from inception the religion would have never flourished in the first place. Zoroastrians who claimed refuge in South Asia agreed not to proselytize as a condition for staying.
That Zoroastrianism is seeing a resurgence is good news for Zoroastrians everywhere. The religion is dying as we speak, due to a low birth rate.
That Zoroastrianism is seeing a resurgence is good news for Zoroastrians everywhere. The religion is dying as we speak, due to a low birth rate.
Source? Everything I've ever read suggests that conversion is a complicated religious issue for Zoroastrianism and that the traditional answer is that conversion is not allowed. There is division and some groups do allow it, but I've never seen anyone claim that opposing conversion had anything to do with it being a condition for staying.
[deleted]
There are somewhere in the neighborhood of a million Druze, they haven't accepted converts in 1000 years.
Hard to see why this is news when most news are about Kanye nowadays? No, the comeback of an ancient philosophy/religion is important news no matter the underlying causes.
Why would you assume this is fake news? Please give references or sources that would back up your claims.
As someone who doesn't know much about the whole thing, your dismissal comes off as an equally fake news'ish dismissal meant to create a diversion.
As someone who doesn't know much about the whole thing, your dismissal comes off as an equally fake news'ish dismissal meant to create a diversion.
I didn't say anything about "fake news," and I didn't make any claims.
It is my opinion that the group described in this piece probably recruits people for Kurdish nationalist causes. Lucky for them that Reuters picked it up.
It is my opinion that the group described in this piece probably recruits people for Kurdish nationalist causes. Lucky for them that Reuters picked it up.
It’ll be interesting to see whether converts can stop the decline of the Zoroastrian religion.
Currently, the Zoroastrian Parsi community in India is in danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates. It’s something that Hindu nationalists are rather concerned about, but it’s hard to reverse demographic decline even with government support. Increasing outmarriages by Parsis won’t help things either.
Currently, the Zoroastrian Parsi community in India is in danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates. It’s something that Hindu nationalists are rather concerned about, but it’s hard to reverse demographic decline even with government support. Increasing outmarriages by Parsis won’t help things either.
Why are Hindu nationalists concerned about the fertility rates of the Parsi community?
There is natural affinity between Zoroastriansim and Hinduism due to the related roots of Vedic and early Iranic religion (fire rituals in particular are a striking similarity).
Additionally, Hindu nationalism is driven by a perceived need to defend against religions that seek to convert the world (namely, Christianity and Islam). As such, Zoroastrianism is seen as a religion that needed sheltering from Islam.
Finally, specifically to the fertility rate issue, there is often fear amongst Hindu nationalists that differences in fertility rates will lead to Islamic demographic ascendancy, so it's natural to apply the same logic to the declining Parsi community.
Additionally, Hindu nationalism is driven by a perceived need to defend against religions that seek to convert the world (namely, Christianity and Islam). As such, Zoroastrianism is seen as a religion that needed sheltering from Islam.
Finally, specifically to the fertility rate issue, there is often fear amongst Hindu nationalists that differences in fertility rates will lead to Islamic demographic ascendancy, so it's natural to apply the same logic to the declining Parsi community.
>differences in fertility rates will lead to Islamic demographic ascendancy
That seems mathematically sound. What am I missing?
That seems mathematically sound. What am I missing?
Straight line extrapolations of present trends indefinitely into the future are rarely reliable. Plus the demographics are generally driven more by poverty and access to family planning resources moreso than the religious/demographic warfare angle nationalists tend to lean to.
In other words, if demographic balance was really the concern the most effective proven way to address it would be to invest heavily in education and healthcare in the community with above-average fertility. But instead the proposed policies always insist on more and harsher crackdowns on the minority group, which will be counterproductive at best.
In other words, if demographic balance was really the concern the most effective proven way to address it would be to invest heavily in education and healthcare in the community with above-average fertility. But instead the proposed policies always insist on more and harsher crackdowns on the minority group, which will be counterproductive at best.
If this was true (or the only factor), the demographic trends in India would match the ones from Pakistan and Bangladesh.
Why do you say that? There’s a million differences between the populations of those three countries. For one thing, Muslim family law in India is actually a fair bit more conservative than in Pak/Bang.
Stop noticing things.
> What am I missing?
The fact that a correlation between religion and fertility rates is completely bollocks (with the notable exceptions of some extremist/fundamentalist sects of Christianity such as Quiverfull and Amish as well as fringes of the Jewish Ultra-Orthodox movement). High reproduction rates are closely linked to poverty [1], and once wealth rises in a country or people migrate from poor/high-rate countries, birth rates drop accordingly [2].
Additionally, it's a simple numbers game. The US only has 1% of Muslim faith [3], the European continent has ~7.5% [4] Muslims (of which 2/3rds belong to Russia and Turkey - the European Union figure is ~3.3%), even India barely has 13% [5]. It's mathematically impossible for Islam to achieve dominance in any country it doesn't already have by population in any feasible time scale, especially as religious affiliation in general keeps dropping and dropping associated again with wealth and education levels.
In general, the "the Muslims will replace us demographically!!!" take is dominantly found on the far-right end of the political spectrum, with the worst of the worst being the virulently anti-semitic "great replacement" theory that alleges that a "new world order" led by Jews wants to "replace" the intelligent White Christian population with dumb Muslims [6]. Please, don't fall for that kind of baseless, vile propaganda.
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/25/h...
[2]: https://www.knomad.org/sites/default/files/2020-01/Migration...
[3]: https://www.pewforum.org/2021/01/14/measuring-religion-in-pe...
[4]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europa#Statistik
[5]: https://www.bpb.de/internationales/asien/indien/44418/muslim...
[6]: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/the-great-replac...
The fact that a correlation between religion and fertility rates is completely bollocks (with the notable exceptions of some extremist/fundamentalist sects of Christianity such as Quiverfull and Amish as well as fringes of the Jewish Ultra-Orthodox movement). High reproduction rates are closely linked to poverty [1], and once wealth rises in a country or people migrate from poor/high-rate countries, birth rates drop accordingly [2].
Additionally, it's a simple numbers game. The US only has 1% of Muslim faith [3], the European continent has ~7.5% [4] Muslims (of which 2/3rds belong to Russia and Turkey - the European Union figure is ~3.3%), even India barely has 13% [5]. It's mathematically impossible for Islam to achieve dominance in any country it doesn't already have by population in any feasible time scale, especially as religious affiliation in general keeps dropping and dropping associated again with wealth and education levels.
In general, the "the Muslims will replace us demographically!!!" take is dominantly found on the far-right end of the political spectrum, with the worst of the worst being the virulently anti-semitic "great replacement" theory that alleges that a "new world order" led by Jews wants to "replace" the intelligent White Christian population with dumb Muslims [6]. Please, don't fall for that kind of baseless, vile propaganda.
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/aug/25/h...
[2]: https://www.knomad.org/sites/default/files/2020-01/Migration...
[3]: https://www.pewforum.org/2021/01/14/measuring-religion-in-pe...
[4]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europa#Statistik
[5]: https://www.bpb.de/internationales/asien/indien/44418/muslim...
[6]: https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/the-great-replac...
It is not about plain fertility rate but tipping of demographic balance between communities by various means. It can create pockets of Muslim majority in countries where they are minority and then "right to self-determination" means partitions.
> It can create pockets of Muslim majority in countries where they are minority
I assume you're talking about the Parisian "banlieues", Berlin-Neukölln and similar areas? These ghettos are the result of a mixture of gentrification and (decades of) ethnic discrimination... basically, what happens is:
First, many immigrants take up low-paid jobs in society because of language barriers or un-recognized qualification documents [1] or because of ethnic discrimination in hiring [2]. That means they are restricted to social/cheap housing by their low income.
These housing situations (sometimes quickly) deteriorate in a phenomenon called "white flight", which leads to a vicious cycle of discrimination by city quarter [3] and everyone who is able to fleeing, leading to a collapse in rents and a subsequent rise in migrant and "down on their luck" (i.e. criminals and other people unable to find regular housing) people. In the end, the government and its services as well as economy (e.g. supermarkets, small shops, ...) also retreats from such areas, leading to further decline. The people left behind then go and self-organize - some in positive forms such as ethnic grocery exports/imports stores, some in negative forms such as crime gangs.
The ethnic discrimination, especially against the young second- or third-generation migrants, also leads to a rise in gang-related crime: when schools fail to educate them, the employment market discriminates against them and cultural icons glorify a life of crime or crime is the only way to make a living without depending on social security, way too many choose the way of joining a gang.
The crime then invites politicians, usually from the Conservative to far-right, to call for "law and order" tactics from police, which leads to an increase of discrimination by police, a further split between the immigrant and indigenous population and sometimes outright ethnic riots (the London 2011 riots began with the killing of a Black suspect by police, the Paris 2005 riots began with the death of two immigrant youth who fled from police in fear of lengthy "interrogations", and the BLM-associated riots were triggered by George Floyd being murdered by police).
And historically, governments haven't exactly had a track record combatting the early signs of gentrification or ghettoization... which makes all the crying and complaining about "segregation", "parallel cultures" etc. when something happens (such as the mentioned riots, or the gang murder spree in Sweden) a bit cynical. The policies of the Conservative and far-right politicians created the very same problems they are now complaining about.
[1]: https://www.spiegel.de/karriere/oecd-eu-studie-besonders-vie...
[2]: https://www.spiegel.de/lebenundlernen/schule/auslaendische-v...
[3]: https://www.bpb.de/politik/innenpolitik/stadt-und-gesellscha...
I assume you're talking about the Parisian "banlieues", Berlin-Neukölln and similar areas? These ghettos are the result of a mixture of gentrification and (decades of) ethnic discrimination... basically, what happens is:
First, many immigrants take up low-paid jobs in society because of language barriers or un-recognized qualification documents [1] or because of ethnic discrimination in hiring [2]. That means they are restricted to social/cheap housing by their low income.
These housing situations (sometimes quickly) deteriorate in a phenomenon called "white flight", which leads to a vicious cycle of discrimination by city quarter [3] and everyone who is able to fleeing, leading to a collapse in rents and a subsequent rise in migrant and "down on their luck" (i.e. criminals and other people unable to find regular housing) people. In the end, the government and its services as well as economy (e.g. supermarkets, small shops, ...) also retreats from such areas, leading to further decline. The people left behind then go and self-organize - some in positive forms such as ethnic grocery exports/imports stores, some in negative forms such as crime gangs.
The ethnic discrimination, especially against the young second- or third-generation migrants, also leads to a rise in gang-related crime: when schools fail to educate them, the employment market discriminates against them and cultural icons glorify a life of crime or crime is the only way to make a living without depending on social security, way too many choose the way of joining a gang.
The crime then invites politicians, usually from the Conservative to far-right, to call for "law and order" tactics from police, which leads to an increase of discrimination by police, a further split between the immigrant and indigenous population and sometimes outright ethnic riots (the London 2011 riots began with the killing of a Black suspect by police, the Paris 2005 riots began with the death of two immigrant youth who fled from police in fear of lengthy "interrogations", and the BLM-associated riots were triggered by George Floyd being murdered by police).
And historically, governments haven't exactly had a track record combatting the early signs of gentrification or ghettoization... which makes all the crying and complaining about "segregation", "parallel cultures" etc. when something happens (such as the mentioned riots, or the gang murder spree in Sweden) a bit cynical. The policies of the Conservative and far-right politicians created the very same problems they are now complaining about.
[1]: https://www.spiegel.de/karriere/oecd-eu-studie-besonders-vie...
[2]: https://www.spiegel.de/lebenundlernen/schule/auslaendische-v...
[3]: https://www.bpb.de/politik/innenpolitik/stadt-und-gesellscha...
It's not about countries with 5% Muslim population and I am not talking about minor ghettos in European urban areas. Look at non-Islamic countries with 20%-25% or more Muslim population. Look at how India got partitioned based on religion and how Hindu population in Pakistan (+ Bangladesh) shrunk while Muslim population flourished in India. Look at how Muslim majority area in India like Kashmir wants to separate (and they don't want Hindus there).
You're pointing to a dynamic of urban decay and "broken windows effect", which is the exact opposite of gentrification. Minorities with a history of migration also tend to do mostly lower-skilled work, and the lower-skilled end of the labor market is the one that bears the greatest burden by far from the kind of onerous labor regulation and taxation that is especially common in France.
It's the very opposite of what a serious policy aimed at mitigating social and economic inequality should look like, but Big Government ideology is widespread enough in France that any reform is quite unthinkable there. (Germany used to be in the same boat, but they enacted reforms in the early 2000s that provided for some degree of much-needed flexibility for these marginalized workers. It's not a full UBI or even an EITC equivalent, but it's a tiny start.)
It's the very opposite of what a serious policy aimed at mitigating social and economic inequality should look like, but Big Government ideology is widespread enough in France that any reform is quite unthinkable there. (Germany used to be in the same boat, but they enacted reforms in the early 2000s that provided for some degree of much-needed flexibility for these marginalized workers. It's not a full UBI or even an EITC equivalent, but it's a tiny start.)
> You're pointing to a dynamic of urban decay and "broken windows effect", which is the exact opposite of gentrification.
Both go together hand-in-hand, you cannot have gentrification without an area that picks up those driven out by it.
> and the lower-skilled end of the labor market is the one that bears the greatest burden by far from the kind of onerous labor regulation and taxation that is especially common in France.
> Germany used to be in the same boat, but they enacted reforms in the early 2000s that provided for some degree of much-needed flexibility for these marginalized workers.
When comparing the employment sector in France and in Germany where the Schröder government introduced the infamous "Hartz IV" reforms in 2006, one clear thing pops out: France has a significantly lower rate of ultra-low-wage employment (8.6%) compared to Germany (20.7%). The "flexibility" only helped the ultra-low-wage employment sector to explode, a trend that only got reversed in the last few years before COVID hit [2].
[1]: https://www.destatis.de/Europa/DE/Thema/Bevoelkerung-Arbeit-...
[2]: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/161881/umfrag...
Both go together hand-in-hand, you cannot have gentrification without an area that picks up those driven out by it.
> and the lower-skilled end of the labor market is the one that bears the greatest burden by far from the kind of onerous labor regulation and taxation that is especially common in France.
> Germany used to be in the same boat, but they enacted reforms in the early 2000s that provided for some degree of much-needed flexibility for these marginalized workers.
When comparing the employment sector in France and in Germany where the Schröder government introduced the infamous "Hartz IV" reforms in 2006, one clear thing pops out: France has a significantly lower rate of ultra-low-wage employment (8.6%) compared to Germany (20.7%). The "flexibility" only helped the ultra-low-wage employment sector to explode, a trend that only got reversed in the last few years before COVID hit [2].
[1]: https://www.destatis.de/Europa/DE/Thema/Bevoelkerung-Arbeit-...
[2]: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/161881/umfrag...
I think north west India would be a huge Muslim country if taken as an independent country, so dismissing it as 'just 13%' is kinda a funny dodge.
Some European countries already have a plurality of births to migrant groups, I think the figure is better than 20% for Spain and France- so even if fertility euqalizes its a big demographic event considering the timescale.
Some European countries already have a plurality of births to migrant groups, I think the figure is better than 20% for Spain and France- so even if fertility euqalizes its a big demographic event considering the timescale.
> Some European countries already have a plurality of births to migrant groups, I think the figure is better than 20% for Spain and France- so even if fertility euqalizes its a big demographic event considering the timescale.
Spain has 10% people with migration history. It will take a lot of generations for that to change in a major way simply with fertility - and after three or four generations, it's hardly fair to call these people migrants anyway. In the US, a second-generation migrant became the 44th President and a third-generation migrant became the 45th President.
Spain has 10% people with migration history. It will take a lot of generations for that to change in a major way simply with fertility - and after three or four generations, it's hardly fair to call these people migrants anyway. In the US, a second-generation migrant became the 44th President and a third-generation migrant became the 45th President.
Actually if there are consistently 10% migratants with a fertility rate above the average, this will cause a growth in whatever ethnic groups are migrating - even if you just consider them 'french' or 'spanish' in the second or third generations. Muslims make up 8.8% of France right now, and they have grown significantly as a percentage of the population even in the last ten years almost a percentage point. Will this ever go to 50%? Probably not but we are likely to see a higher fraction in the future.
Isn't "second-generation migrant" incoherent as a description of someone living in the country they were born in?
"first/second generation migrant" is a widely used term in sociology and economy to detect and track differences between native and immigrant population. The term is common both in the US [1] and EU [2], with the latter actually going up to "third-generation migrant" when talking about long-term effects; the Swiss passed a special law to ease citizenship requirements for third-generation migrants. [3]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant_generations
[2]: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/pages/glossary/second-gene...
[3]: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/abstimmungen...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant_generations
[2]: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/pages/glossary/second-gene...
[3]: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/abstimmungen...
> danger of rapid decline due to abysmal fertility rates.
The kid of a Zoroastrian mother and non-Zoroastrian father is also not considered to be Zoroastrian.
The kid of a Zoroastrian mother and non-Zoroastrian father is also not considered to be Zoroastrian.
Certainly an outdated rule that needs to change.
Yeah, because that's what religions are known for: eagerly changing their own rules.
I mean yeah, surviving religions have done that quite a lot. It's part of what drives schisms.
Can you elaborate?
I'd want to understand why some Zoroastrians hold that view, before claiming that it's incorrect.
I'd want to understand why some Zoroastrians hold that view, before claiming that it's incorrect.
Clarification: The below applies only to Zoroastrians in the Indian sub-continent.
It's a combination of conservatism and patriarchy at the religious leadership level. Originally, the rules were clear for either gender: If a Zoroastrian married outside the faith, their child was not Zoroastrian anymore. However, certain influential families were able to gain acceptance for children where the father was Zoroastrian and the mother was not. The priests, however, refused to accept the converse, even though most children learn to practice their faith from their mothers.
This issue has bifurcated the community between the conservatives who agree with the priests, and liberals who support Zoroastrians marrying outside the community. Zoroastrians are largely Westernized, ergo women are educated, have careers and choose their own spouses, and women have long since complained that this system is unfair to them. Some priests, particularly in North America, UK and Australia, are espousing the liberal philosophy and will conduct the initiation ceremony for any child as long as one spouse is Zoroastrian.
In addition, there are also those who feel the situation is dire enough such that conversions should be allowed again.
It's a combination of conservatism and patriarchy at the religious leadership level. Originally, the rules were clear for either gender: If a Zoroastrian married outside the faith, their child was not Zoroastrian anymore. However, certain influential families were able to gain acceptance for children where the father was Zoroastrian and the mother was not. The priests, however, refused to accept the converse, even though most children learn to practice their faith from their mothers.
This issue has bifurcated the community between the conservatives who agree with the priests, and liberals who support Zoroastrians marrying outside the community. Zoroastrians are largely Westernized, ergo women are educated, have careers and choose their own spouses, and women have long since complained that this system is unfair to them. Some priests, particularly in North America, UK and Australia, are espousing the liberal philosophy and will conduct the initiation ceremony for any child as long as one spouse is Zoroastrian.
In addition, there are also those who feel the situation is dire enough such that conversions should be allowed again.
Interesting that it’s the opposite in Judaism.
A child of a Jewish mother and a Zoroastrian father would belong to both religions.
A child of a Jewish mother and a Zoroastrian father would belong to both religions.
Matrilineal descent does make a lot of sense. It is a lot simpler to determine maternity vs paternity.
Is this actually possible? I am say agnostic myself, but my understanding would be that every major religion considers it a elementary sin if you don't worship their given God, not just any random god.
Also isn't 'belonging' to given religion done in some form of baptism or other introduction to it?
Also isn't 'belonging' to given religion done in some form of baptism or other introduction to it?
[deleted]
They'll delay the decline a bit but I think they'd need to see a surprising turnaround baby boom among converts on top of conversion rates in order to cancel it out? We'll have to see.
Zoroaster (also Zarathustra) is also the character at the center of the famous book by Nietzsche "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" (I recommend it), which itself inspired the symphonic poem (with the same name -- I recommend to listen to it entirely too) from Richard Strauss, that everyone knows as the opening theme of Kubric's "2001: A Space Odyssey" (that I recommend too).
Nietzsche specifically chose to name his character Zarathustra because he (Nietzsche) viewed him as being the first person to introduce the concept of Good and Evil. Thus he should be the one to transcend it, according to Nietzsche.
In other words, he chose the name because it represented exactly the mentality he wanted to overcome.
In other words, he chose the name because it represented exactly the mentality he wanted to overcome.
Thanks. I thought it was more deeply related, but I was wrong.
While I recommend Nietzsche's book, too (I think it's one of the most beautiful works written in German just from the perspective of language), I doubt his character has much in common with the original Zoroaster beyond the name.
(I know next to nothing about Zoroastrianism, but Nietzsche was not big on religion.)
(I know next to nothing about Zoroastrianism, but Nietzsche was not big on religion.)
Thank you. I really thought Nietzsche had taken the real Zoroaster as basis, but you're right (as well as the other sibling commentator), it seems to be just the name.
[deleted]
This isn’t only happening among Kurds. Far more often, there are Iranian converts from Islam, who were often just secular before. It ties into revolting against the current regime and rejecting Islam as a foreign concept in Iran entirely.
And push back against ugly cultural practices otherwise prescribed like circumcision.
I may be pointing in the wrong direction here, but overall I've noticed a small but noticeable trend with people from less vibrant version of Christianity (mainly the "unchanged" western form of Christianity) becoming interested/invested in old per-christian culture/traditions/spirituality.
While a definitive explanation for it has not been made, I think the biggest reason for it is as the article explains, in that these older traditions is a lot more open and flexible ironically enough because it's been the only way for it to be taken serious in modern times (in essence that the myths and legends are merely stories or fair tales told to teach a certain concept).
But also because these old religions is much less of a burden for the believer both in terms of what a "good" believer is but also because lack of clashes with society's expectations and norms.
While a definitive explanation for it has not been made, I think the biggest reason for it is as the article explains, in that these older traditions is a lot more open and flexible ironically enough because it's been the only way for it to be taken serious in modern times (in essence that the myths and legends are merely stories or fair tales told to teach a certain concept).
But also because these old religions is much less of a burden for the believer both in terms of what a "good" believer is but also because lack of clashes with society's expectations and norms.
I think you're onto something, there has been a trend from protestantism to apostolic Christianity among some. For instance, various conservative mainline protestants have become Catholic, and the Orthodox have a western branch for protestants who want to come over. Then again, this trend would seem to be pretty old news.
I think the comparison between the old and new forms of Christianity you're making is a bit ... mistaken. It's hard to say the older forms require less from their believers than the protestant sects do.
I think the comparison between the old and new forms of Christianity you're making is a bit ... mistaken. It's hard to say the older forms require less from their believers than the protestant sects do.
When I meant "old" I meant the "hardline" Christianity that deems any reformation at best as straying away from the gospel and at worst blasphemy.
A lot of the Christianity in western Europe has had quite the reformation to accommodate new norms in society.
A lot of the Christianity in western Europe has had quite the reformation to accommodate new norms in society.
Zoroastrism isnt strongly into conversion, which in fact is prohibited in India. But there are a growing number of secularized descendants who return to the old centers to learn the old knowledge. There was a story on such in major magazine recently. But I cant locate the reference.
Funny, just a couple weeks ago a friend recommended Gore Vidal's historical novel Creation, where the author is a grandson of Zoroaster. He manages to meet Socrates, the Buddha, and Confucius, which was actually possible at a certain point.
(I don't like Vidal's writing, which I find to be mostly attitude, but YMMV.)
(I don't like Vidal's writing, which I find to be mostly attitude, but YMMV.)
I would bet Socrates is the strangest in that bunch, since he claims to possess no knowledge (episteme) at all. At one point, he says he is therefore the wisest of all, even though he sees wisdom (sophos) as something that humans can only strive towards and never truly attain.
I think Socrates is only known from Plato's writing and possibly a rhethorical device.
I'm only interested in the origin and meaning of the sokratic paradox and am hopeful that it has a prehistory. Did you know that οὐκ, which may be translated as "not", is composed of (un-) + ever + what (a pattern also seen in Maltesen for negation), so one of the associated quotes could be read as "I know ever-what knowing". English and German wikipedia present this slightly differently, it is confusing. See wiktionary yourself for the alleged etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CE%BA
I'm only interested in the origin and meaning of the sokratic paradox and am hopeful that it has a prehistory. Did you know that οὐκ, which may be translated as "not", is composed of (un-) + ever + what (a pattern also seen in Maltesen for negation), so one of the associated quotes could be read as "I know ever-what knowing". English and German wikipedia present this slightly differently, it is confusing. See wiktionary yourself for the alleged etymology https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BD%90%CE%BA
Socrates is known from multiple sources, the most famous which aside from Plato is probably Xenophon.
I was motivated to read it (who wouldn't be?), but I do find Vidal's writing off-puttingly snarky.
The only Zoroastrian I know of was Freddy Mercury.
Now you know me too
Do you folks in the west offer diversity funding to Zoroastrian founders? We are provably a dying breed.
Do you folks in the west offer diversity funding to Zoroastrian founders? We are provably a dying breed.
[deleted]
Lt Ilia.
TIL Zoroastrianism is still a thing. I knew about it from the Crusader Kings games, but for some reason i thought it was dead.
[deleted]
Awesome, pray for the middle east. My family traveled to America during the ottoman genocides in WW1 and given the history before and after that, it seems to me it will never find peace. I hope so
Zoroastrianism would be a very peaceful way for the region compared to Hard-core Islam.
I would be careful with such assumptions. Even most tolerant religions can end up with population doing quite significant warfare, genocides and other horrible crimes.
Sample case - buddhist armies conquering places like Ladakh in distant past. or a bitter merciless civil war between buddhist majority and hindu minority in Sri Lanka where both sides committed atrocities.
Islam is very tolerant at its core, but many religions are twisted badly from their original intents, power/violence craving individuals being able to find alternative interpretations to many well-intended ideas.
Sample case - buddhist armies conquering places like Ladakh in distant past. or a bitter merciless civil war between buddhist majority and hindu minority in Sri Lanka where both sides committed atrocities.
Islam is very tolerant at its core, but many religions are twisted badly from their original intents, power/violence craving individuals being able to find alternative interpretations to many well-intended ideas.
While what you say generally is true, the fact that Islam calls for conversion of others while Zoroastrianism does not is a very important difference for the peace of the region.
One person is not a "comeback". Its a non-article.
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
If you read the article, it mentions an uptick of thousands of people converting. Stories generally are told about individuals as a way to relate to larger movements.
The article seems to suggest there are a few thousand Zoroastrians currently in the area:
According to Awat Taieb, co-founder of the Yasna association that since 2014 has promoted Zoroastrianism in Kurdistan and also representative of the faith at the Kurdistan government, about 15,000 people registered with the organisation so far.
According to Awat Taieb, co-founder of the Yasna association that since 2014 has promoted Zoroastrianism in Kurdistan and also representative of the faith at the Kurdistan government, about 15,000 people registered with the organisation so far.
Reminds me of modern paganism.
It's very much not modern, it's one of the oldest religions around - there's some evidence that the (younger) Abrahamic religions have inherited ideas from it, so maybe not so 'pagan' either
It does preserve quite a few elements from the religion of Proto-Indo-Aryans, which means it shares significant ancestry both with Western Paganism and with Vedic religion. The myth of the primeval cow is one of these elements, being found not just in Indian religion but also, e.g. among the Norse.
Paganism is old too. Just as modern pagans take inspiration from traditional pagan religions, but have a modern bend to their revival, the same thing appears to be happening here - the Zoroastrianism he adopted seems to be a modern adaptation rather than traditional Zoroastrianism practiced by surviving Zoroastrian communities.
There's actually not a lot of evidence for this- it's a theory of comparative religion studies which has little support.
For instance, it may be appealing to say Christianity has drawn from the zoroastrian idea of a good and bad after life and final judgment, but we find those themes in Egyptian religion as well... Additionally, the resurrection of the dead is a development of Judaism that happened relatively late and was denied by various sects in antiquity but became mainstreamed in Christianity and modern orthodox judaism.
For instance, it may be appealing to say Christianity has drawn from the zoroastrian idea of a good and bad after life and final judgment, but we find those themes in Egyptian religion as well... Additionally, the resurrection of the dead is a development of Judaism that happened relatively late and was denied by various sects in antiquity but became mainstreamed in Christianity and modern orthodox judaism.
Christianity/Abrahamic religions can all be traced back to the writings of Akkadian priests
I can only assume you mean the evidence of a shared language family and some similar flood myths. I have read some ANE journal articles on this topic and most researchers admit the flow of information may have been bidirectional.
I tend to view the opening of genesis as being a take-down of prior creation myths from other cultures in the region, but I'm unaware of exactly the same story in any of them.
I tend to view the opening of genesis as being a take-down of prior creation myths from other cultures in the region, but I'm unaware of exactly the same story in any of them.
The Genesis mythology is probably the syncretic fragments of poems and stories gathered over time. When the Egyptians ruled the Levant, the Hebrews were pantheistic nomadic wanderers. Then they became henotheistic pastoralists and settlers under the Akkadians. During Greeks reign, they became monotheistic urban citizens. So the mythos had to keep changing.
The accreation mythos went through multiple and severe editing during the Akkadian times under the reigning Akkadian priests so as to completely remove the Hebrews from the Egyptian pantheistic influence. This became the creation myth of the OT.. Parashah B'reshit.
The Canaanites(includes the Hebrews) managed to keep some parts of the Baal cycle mythos but mostly relied on the stories from Akkadian priests.
The Akkadian Mythology itself runs parallel to the Hittite and Chaldean creation myths. Their origins are lost suggesting that there were even older creation myths from which they derived their own narrative mythology.
For example..look at Tiamat (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat ), a salt water sea dragon/serpent who is sibling of Apsu (fresh water). Tiamat was later killed by Marduk who used her parts to create the other worlds. Marduk (storm god), the son of Enki(water god).
Genesis follows the same story structure up until the flood myth and the ark. So Hebrew creation mythos/Genesis was definitely derivative and also underwent multiple edits and rewritten over the centuries.
Ref: https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ : The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature
The accreation mythos went through multiple and severe editing during the Akkadian times under the reigning Akkadian priests so as to completely remove the Hebrews from the Egyptian pantheistic influence. This became the creation myth of the OT.. Parashah B'reshit.
The Canaanites(includes the Hebrews) managed to keep some parts of the Baal cycle mythos but mostly relied on the stories from Akkadian priests.
The Akkadian Mythology itself runs parallel to the Hittite and Chaldean creation myths. Their origins are lost suggesting that there were even older creation myths from which they derived their own narrative mythology.
For example..look at Tiamat (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat ), a salt water sea dragon/serpent who is sibling of Apsu (fresh water). Tiamat was later killed by Marduk who used her parts to create the other worlds. Marduk (storm god), the son of Enki(water god).
Genesis follows the same story structure up until the flood myth and the ark. So Hebrew creation mythos/Genesis was definitely derivative and also underwent multiple edits and rewritten over the centuries.
Ref: https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ : The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature
Criticism of religion as derivative is generally reserved for the abrahamic faiths you don't generally see it done to say Bhuddism. A sort of early modern bias creeps in, the idea that a religion is invalidated by showing that it arose among men at a certain time. of course, that this is exactly what religions generally claim. I'm struggling to think of any sects for whom this is actually a deal breaker... maybe some American fundamentalists?
it's common to interpret the structure of genesis as being a riff off of earlier myths, in a critical way. The structure is often parallel, but also often different as though to draw a comparison to the mind of the reader. We see a harmonious creation account rather than a violent one, and a creator God who is master over both earth and water.
Anyone who studied religion at an undergraduate level (or at a good highschool) knows this. The specific narrative you're weaving is , however, highly speculative.
It should not surprise Christians or jews that the ancient Israelites recognized other gods, this is covered extensively in the Bible. There are frequent references to the 'God's of the nations' in the old testament, particularly evident in the greek.
The existnece of miltiple lower case G 'gods' - is still held in even the New Testament 'principalities and powers' are 'gods over the nations'. I think, it is fair to say that modern jews and Christians alike still hold this to be true.
it's common to interpret the structure of genesis as being a riff off of earlier myths, in a critical way. The structure is often parallel, but also often different as though to draw a comparison to the mind of the reader. We see a harmonious creation account rather than a violent one, and a creator God who is master over both earth and water.
Anyone who studied religion at an undergraduate level (or at a good highschool) knows this. The specific narrative you're weaving is , however, highly speculative.
It should not surprise Christians or jews that the ancient Israelites recognized other gods, this is covered extensively in the Bible. There are frequent references to the 'God's of the nations' in the old testament, particularly evident in the greek.
The existnece of miltiple lower case G 'gods' - is still held in even the New Testament 'principalities and powers' are 'gods over the nations'. I think, it is fair to say that modern jews and Christians alike still hold this to be true.
Fairly off topic, but your phrasing reminded me of this book [0].
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Modern-Pagans-Outlined-E...
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Modern-Pagans-Outlined-E...
Yet zorastrianism is one of the earliest quasi monotheistic religions
Why the quasi qualifier there?
It has deities (yazatas) as manifestations of the supreme god. As such, it is much more akin to “polytheistic” Hinduism (which generally believes in an all pervasive god) than to religions like Judaism and Islam which have prohibitions against idolatry to prevent adherents from invoking individual deities.
Zoroastrianism embraces dualism as part of its creation myth [1].
[1] https://academic.oup.com/jaar/article-abstract/XLVII/4/557/7...
[1] https://academic.oup.com/jaar/article-abstract/XLVII/4/557/7...
1cvmask(1)
This seems like a means to introduce atheism/agnosticism in a more culturally acceptable way, I may be reading too much in to it though.
Zoroastrians are not atheist, they acknowledge Ahura Mazda as a god. (Ahura Mazda is also mentioned in the Vedas, as Mitra-Varuna.)
More correctly, Mitra-Varuna is a compound referring to two independent gods, Mitra and Varuna. Mitra is also mentioned in the Avesta, separate from Ahura Mazda, and in a similar compound form. This has led some to believe that Varuna is to be identified with Ahura Mazda in the proto-Indo-Iranian religion, but this is debated.
Mitra also appears in Manichaeism. The name Mehr or Meher comes from Mitra.
Vedic Mitra was invoked along with other Vedic gods as far away as current day Syria/Turkey
[..] Indic Mitra is first attested in a 14th century BCE Mitanni inscription in which an Indo-Aryan king of Mitanni invokes the gods Mitra, Indra, Varuna, and the Nasatyas as guarantors of his sworn obligations.[..]
Also in the treaties signed by Mittanis and the Hittites.
Mitra always appears with Varuna. In the beginning of Rig Veda, Varuna is the king of the Vedic gods and is resplendent and benevolent..but towards the end, he loses his luster and becomes a minor god..mean, dull and almost cruel as Indra becomes the new head after slaying Ahi , the serpent demon who captured Apas, the water goddess(apam-napat or apa also appears as a Zoroastrian deity)
One theory is that this event of Indra rescuing apa from ahi by releasing her frozen waters(ahi froze the waters and indira used his lightning bolt/thunderbolt weapon vajra to melt the ice so she will flow down back from the frozen state) can be times to one of the ice ages ..and younger dryas event + the sedimentation layer might have been after that..which would have been due to thehastened melting of the ice when the comets burned down..causing the ‘great flooding’..an event that is recorded in every world mythology.
Back to Ahura Mazda/Varuna split.. there were two priests classes..brighus and angiras..angiras took some books and went east..the brighus kept some of the Bhargava texts. Even today, the Vedas are bit complete and many parts of it are considered ‘lost’
Shri Jatindra Mohan Chatterji argues that Zend Avesta is the Bhargava Veda text. He asserts that the Bhargava Veda the missing Book of the Bhrigu Angirasa Samhita (The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathustra – Published by The Parsi Zoroastrian Association, Calcutta, 1967).
The Indo-Iranians likely became divided because of differences in opinion about methods of worship and accent on certain principles. Likely leading to the split of the original Aryan land into India and Iran..east of river Sindhu became the land of Hindus.
Vedic Mitra was invoked along with other Vedic gods as far away as current day Syria/Turkey
[..] Indic Mitra is first attested in a 14th century BCE Mitanni inscription in which an Indo-Aryan king of Mitanni invokes the gods Mitra, Indra, Varuna, and the Nasatyas as guarantors of his sworn obligations.[..]
Also in the treaties signed by Mittanis and the Hittites.
Mitra always appears with Varuna. In the beginning of Rig Veda, Varuna is the king of the Vedic gods and is resplendent and benevolent..but towards the end, he loses his luster and becomes a minor god..mean, dull and almost cruel as Indra becomes the new head after slaying Ahi , the serpent demon who captured Apas, the water goddess(apam-napat or apa also appears as a Zoroastrian deity)
One theory is that this event of Indra rescuing apa from ahi by releasing her frozen waters(ahi froze the waters and indira used his lightning bolt/thunderbolt weapon vajra to melt the ice so she will flow down back from the frozen state) can be times to one of the ice ages ..and younger dryas event + the sedimentation layer might have been after that..which would have been due to thehastened melting of the ice when the comets burned down..causing the ‘great flooding’..an event that is recorded in every world mythology.
Back to Ahura Mazda/Varuna split.. there were two priests classes..brighus and angiras..angiras took some books and went east..the brighus kept some of the Bhargava texts. Even today, the Vedas are bit complete and many parts of it are considered ‘lost’
Shri Jatindra Mohan Chatterji argues that Zend Avesta is the Bhargava Veda text. He asserts that the Bhargava Veda the missing Book of the Bhrigu Angirasa Samhita (The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathustra – Published by The Parsi Zoroastrian Association, Calcutta, 1967).
The Indo-Iranians likely became divided because of differences in opinion about methods of worship and accent on certain principles. Likely leading to the split of the original Aryan land into India and Iran..east of river Sindhu became the land of Hindus.
> Shri Jatindra Mohan Chatterji argues that Zend Avesta is the Bhargava Veda text. He asserts that the Bhargava Veda the missing Book of the Bhrigu Angirasa Samhita (The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathustra – Published by The Parsi Zoroastrian Association, Calcutta, 1967).
This is unlikely, as the the Vedas were composed after the Indian-Iranian split, and the last common ancestor of Avestan and Vedic is much before that.
This is unlikely, as the the Vedas were composed after the Indian-Iranian split, and the last common ancestor of Avestan and Vedic is much before that.
Source?
> Ahi , the serpent demon who captured Apas, the water goddess
> ahi froze the waters
As for the serpent motive, I think it relates to the movement and shape of glaciers. Here are some pictures.
Snake-like path of a swiss glacier: [1]
The end of a glacier which (with skimming) may look like a snake head releasing streams of melt water: [2]
In these ~110 year old illustrations glaciers are depicted with weird lion head and sluggish lizard body: [3]
Ahi seems to be Azi Dahâka in Zoroastrianism, which also has a lot of long-winter themes [4]:
"The world was imagined as lasting a long year of twelve millenniums. There had been an old myth, connected with that notion, which made the world end in a frightful winter, to be succeeded by an eternal spring, when the blessed would come down from the Vara of Yima to repeople the earth. But as storm was the ordinary and more dramatic form of the strife, there was another version, according to which the world ended in a storm, and this version became the definitive one.
The serpent, Azi Dahâka, let loose, takes hold of the world again. As the temporary disappearance of the light was often mythically described either as the sleeping of the god, or as his absence, or death [...]"
This story about the Vara is also super interesting and similar to the Ark story, though not with a big flood but a long winter and "foul frost". The numbers make more sense, because they gather over a thousand "seeds of men and women" instead of only a single family. [5]
[1] https://www.swisseduc.ch/glaciers/glossary/valley-glacier-en...
[2] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CTPcUSfYG3c/maxresdefault.jpg
[3] https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2018/04/02/culture-history...
[4] https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0405.htm
[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29802590
As for the serpent motive, I think it relates to the movement and shape of glaciers. Here are some pictures.
Snake-like path of a swiss glacier: [1]
The end of a glacier which (with skimming) may look like a snake head releasing streams of melt water: [2]
In these ~110 year old illustrations glaciers are depicted with weird lion head and sluggish lizard body: [3]
Ahi seems to be Azi Dahâka in Zoroastrianism, which also has a lot of long-winter themes [4]:
"The world was imagined as lasting a long year of twelve millenniums. There had been an old myth, connected with that notion, which made the world end in a frightful winter, to be succeeded by an eternal spring, when the blessed would come down from the Vara of Yima to repeople the earth. But as storm was the ordinary and more dramatic form of the strife, there was another version, according to which the world ended in a storm, and this version became the definitive one.
The serpent, Azi Dahâka, let loose, takes hold of the world again. As the temporary disappearance of the light was often mythically described either as the sleeping of the god, or as his absence, or death [...]"
This story about the Vara is also super interesting and similar to the Ark story, though not with a big flood but a long winter and "foul frost". The numbers make more sense, because they gather over a thousand "seeds of men and women" instead of only a single family. [5]
[1] https://www.swisseduc.ch/glaciers/glossary/valley-glacier-en...
[2] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CTPcUSfYG3c/maxresdefault.jpg
[3] https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2018/04/02/culture-history...
[4] https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0405.htm
[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29802590
[..] This story about the Vara is also super interesting and similar to the Ark story, though not with a big flood but a long winter and "foul frost". The numbers make more sense, because they gather over a thousand "seeds of men and women" instead of only a single family.[..]
Thank you. The links are very helpful.
The flood myth in Vedic Hindu mythology is called Pralaya..the Great Dissolution. [..] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralaya
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga_Cycle [..] A Yuga Cycle (a.k.a. chatur yuga, maha yuga, etc.) is a cyclic age (epoch) in Hindu cosmology. Each cycle lasts for 4,320,000 years (12,000 divine years[a]) and repeats four yugas (world ages): Krita (Satya) Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dvapara Yuga, and Kali Yuga.
As a Yuga Cycle progresses through the four yugas, each yuga's length and humanity's general moral and physical state within each yuga decrease by one-fourth. Kali Yuga, which lasts for 432,000 years, is believed to have started in 3102 BCE. Near the end of Kali Yuga, when virtues are at their worst, a cataclysm and a re-establishment of dharma occur to usher in the next cycle's Satya Yuga, prophesied to occur by Kalki.
There are 71 Yuga Cycles in a manvantara (age of Manu) and 1,000 Yuga Cycles in a kalpa (day of Brahma).[..]
At the end of the 4 ages, Seven Sages will save the Vedas to pass it on to the next edition of the universe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saptarishi : [..] At the end of every four ages there is a disappearance of the Vedas and it is the province of the seven Rishis to come down upon earth from heaven to give them currency.[..]
All other life and the universe is Maya or illusion. Even the Gods are gone. They too were part of the illusion.
Only Brahman remains. This formless attributeless universal consciousness will restart creation after every great dissolution. Everything is part of Brahman and Brahman is part of everything. This cycle of creation and dissolution is endless.
Thank you. The links are very helpful.
The flood myth in Vedic Hindu mythology is called Pralaya..the Great Dissolution. [..] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralaya
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga_Cycle [..] A Yuga Cycle (a.k.a. chatur yuga, maha yuga, etc.) is a cyclic age (epoch) in Hindu cosmology. Each cycle lasts for 4,320,000 years (12,000 divine years[a]) and repeats four yugas (world ages): Krita (Satya) Yuga, Treta Yuga, Dvapara Yuga, and Kali Yuga.
As a Yuga Cycle progresses through the four yugas, each yuga's length and humanity's general moral and physical state within each yuga decrease by one-fourth. Kali Yuga, which lasts for 432,000 years, is believed to have started in 3102 BCE. Near the end of Kali Yuga, when virtues are at their worst, a cataclysm and a re-establishment of dharma occur to usher in the next cycle's Satya Yuga, prophesied to occur by Kalki.
There are 71 Yuga Cycles in a manvantara (age of Manu) and 1,000 Yuga Cycles in a kalpa (day of Brahma).[..]
At the end of the 4 ages, Seven Sages will save the Vedas to pass it on to the next edition of the universe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saptarishi : [..] At the end of every four ages there is a disappearance of the Vedas and it is the province of the seven Rishis to come down upon earth from heaven to give them currency.[..]
All other life and the universe is Maya or illusion. Even the Gods are gone. They too were part of the illusion.
Only Brahman remains. This formless attributeless universal consciousness will restart creation after every great dissolution. Everything is part of Brahman and Brahman is part of everything. This cycle of creation and dissolution is endless.
I guess it seems like a way to introduce Zoroastrianism in a culturally acceptable way, though the article mentions that it's not very culturally acceptable yet. I guess I don't get why you would think atheism/agnosticism is the end game.
Then they'd push for atheism instead of this. I agree with the other commenter, there is a nationalist aspect to this. Atheism has gained serious steam in the Arab world due to ISIS. Especially in Syria, Iraq and some in North Africa.
I suspect this "Yasna association" and their placement of a Reuters article are both efforts by Kurdish nationalists to draw members to their cause. In this case, people who happen to have some negative feelings about Islam after the recent series of conflicts might find a fused religious-nationalist appeal more interesting than a nationalist appeal alone.
In any case it's hard to see why this is news -- or how it in any way relates to Zoroastrianism as it exists in Iran and India.