The QR-code menu is being shown the door(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
The QR-code menu is being shown the door
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/22/dining/restaurant-qr-code-menu.html
377 comments
The article missed the reason why QR code menus failed by a mile
> One reason is etiquette. Everyone knows it’s rude to take a phone out at a table, but that’s what a digital menu demands.
> Still, he said, more dynamic QR-code menus that allow a customer to order and pay without waiting for a server are gaining in popularity. In the first quarter of this year, the number of businesses signing up and actively using the service grew 37.6 percent over the last quarter of 2022, he said.
QA code menus failed for three very, very obvious reasons:
1: It's very hard to make a working web site when you're not tech savvy. Restaurants are not "tech" businesses. Many QR menus were difficult to operate, difficult to navigate, and difficult to read. I often found them so confusing that I asked for a paper menu.
2: Tiny menus (because of a tiny phone screen) suck.
(edit) 3: It's actually very rude and insulting to force someone to "learn tech" on the fly. It has little to do with if the patron is tech-savvy. Because it takes a long time to debug tech and get out of the problems that I listed in point #1, it's really insulting, as a patron, to get forced to endure a half-baked website when a low-tech paper menu works perfectly.
> One reason is etiquette. Everyone knows it’s rude to take a phone out at a table, but that’s what a digital menu demands.
> Still, he said, more dynamic QR-code menus that allow a customer to order and pay without waiting for a server are gaining in popularity. In the first quarter of this year, the number of businesses signing up and actively using the service grew 37.6 percent over the last quarter of 2022, he said.
QA code menus failed for three very, very obvious reasons:
1: It's very hard to make a working web site when you're not tech savvy. Restaurants are not "tech" businesses. Many QR menus were difficult to operate, difficult to navigate, and difficult to read. I often found them so confusing that I asked for a paper menu.
2: Tiny menus (because of a tiny phone screen) suck.
(edit) 3: It's actually very rude and insulting to force someone to "learn tech" on the fly. It has little to do with if the patron is tech-savvy. Because it takes a long time to debug tech and get out of the problems that I listed in point #1, it's really insulting, as a patron, to get forced to endure a half-baked website when a low-tech paper menu works perfectly.
> It's actually very rude and insulting to force someone to "learn tech" on the fly. It has little to do with if the patron is tech-savvy.
I'm glad you said this. Our industry is full of people who quantify that their job is "easy". We have a history rife with these assertions, including a period of time where we thought everyone would want to code and that we were just trailblazers. I think that hypothesis is becoming less and less true in interesting ways every day. The most I've seen is people interacting with very facade levels or niche implementations of languages to do their jobs. Even then, those are mostly scientific fields to begin with.
I'm glad you said this. Our industry is full of people who quantify that their job is "easy". We have a history rife with these assertions, including a period of time where we thought everyone would want to code and that we were just trailblazers. I think that hypothesis is becoming less and less true in interesting ways every day. The most I've seen is people interacting with very facade levels or niche implementations of languages to do their jobs. Even then, those are mostly scientific fields to begin with.
A website? You had actual websites? We got mostly PDFs of paper menus. And they would often give you an actual paper menu if you asked.
Everyone forgot about digital menus fairly quickly after it became clear that covid doesn't spread through surfaces though.
Everyone forgot about digital menus fairly quickly after it became clear that covid doesn't spread through surfaces though.
See, I actually usually preferred the PDF menus to websites. Usually traditional menus are laid out in a really intuitive way that groups items logically, flows, and gently guides you to the better dishes.
When it's a website, it's often lousy long lists where you can only see 3 or 4 things at a time, have to scroll super far back up and down to compare things, and have no idea what the restaurant is nudging you to order.
When it's a website, it's often lousy long lists where you can only see 3 or 4 things at a time, have to scroll super far back up and down to compare things, and have no idea what the restaurant is nudging you to order.
> A website? You had actual websites? We got mostly PDFs of paper menus. And they would often give you an actual paper menu if you asked.
Not just any website. Often it sends you straight to some online ordering portal like Toast or Doordash. And this bring all the slow performance and pop-ups and adware that implies. Very fun to try to load these bloated web apps when you have 1 bar of cell signal.
Not just any website. Often it sends you straight to some online ordering portal like Toast or Doordash. And this bring all the slow performance and pop-ups and adware that implies. Very fun to try to load these bloated web apps when you have 1 bar of cell signal.
Actually I had that happen to me in Dubai last year. They wanted me to order through the website, I put my order in and then a card payment form came up. I didn't have any internationally-accepted cards back then so I had to order through the server to be able to pay cash. Oh and on top of that they didn't have any real drinks, only bottled soft drinks at 3x the grocery store prices.
I imagine most of the business in such places comes from delivery so they don't care much about dine-in guests.
I imagine most of the business in such places comes from delivery so they don't care much about dine-in guests.
Many restaurants I patronize still use QR by default, including very high-end restaurants.
Reused menus were always a gross idea so I'm on board with this.
Reused menus were always a gross idea so I'm on board with this.
How gross are menus compared to, say, doorknobs, railings, or chairs? There are a lot of things we touch in a restaurant, and I want to know why menus, specifically, are what’s gross.
It's probably more about how visible gross stuff can be on a menu because you're holding it up in a reading position and staring at it for a few minutes.
That said, menus spend a lot of time on the table, some of that while food and drink is being consumed - apps/drinks are ordered and people continue to ponder their meal choices as they munch. The drinks splatter, the food drips sauce and grease, etc.
Because of the visibility factor, you're confronted with this information far more than you would be for a doorknob or chair. That's going to cause some to consider the menu more gross than those other features.
Finally, tables and chairs and doorknobs and railings all get cleaned from time to time, with tables and chairs often wiped down between guests. Paper menus don't take well to being wiped down with water or cleaning solutions. You can laminate, but laminated menus tend to be associated with cheaper / lower class establishments.
At a place with a continuously changing menu this is less of a factor as menus are reprinted often, sometimes daily. When the menu is static, paper menus might stick around for a while, accumulating residue and getting more visibly dirty over time.
That said, menus spend a lot of time on the table, some of that while food and drink is being consumed - apps/drinks are ordered and people continue to ponder their meal choices as they munch. The drinks splatter, the food drips sauce and grease, etc.
Because of the visibility factor, you're confronted with this information far more than you would be for a doorknob or chair. That's going to cause some to consider the menu more gross than those other features.
Finally, tables and chairs and doorknobs and railings all get cleaned from time to time, with tables and chairs often wiped down between guests. Paper menus don't take well to being wiped down with water or cleaning solutions. You can laminate, but laminated menus tend to be associated with cheaper / lower class establishments.
At a place with a continuously changing menu this is less of a factor as menus are reprinted often, sometimes daily. When the menu is static, paper menus might stick around for a while, accumulating residue and getting more visibly dirty over time.
It's a regular part of waitstaff sidework to go through the menus and clean the laminated kind or discard messy, crumpled, or otherwise unpresentable paper. Many servers will even notice as they're collecting them from a table and toss the bad ones immediately. Apart from basic pride, messiness reflects badly on the whole restaurant and affects their tips!
Exactly. How about those shared ketchup bottles and salt/pepper shakers in most diners?
Everything could be gross to touch if you really think about it too much. Your phone is probably worse than any menu.
Everything could be gross to touch if you really think about it too much. Your phone is probably worse than any menu.
>> One reason is etiquette. Everyone knows it’s rude to take a phone out at a table, but that’s what a digital menu demands.
I disagree with the everyone knows part. In certain age groups, I don't think they actually consider it rude to be glued to their phone regardless of location. Whether I agree with them or not, social norms evolve.
I disagree with the everyone knows part. In certain age groups, I don't think they actually consider it rude to be glued to their phone regardless of location. Whether I agree with them or not, social norms evolve.
It's perfectly acceptable to take a phone out at a table everywhere I've traveled.
It's rude to be glued to your phone everywhere I've traveled; or to talk on a phone during a meal.
Which is also why I said TFA missed the reason by a mile. "Everyone knows it’s rude to take a phone out at a table" isn't true at all; and demonstrates that the author is out of touch with the general public's relationship with tech.
It's rude to be glued to your phone everywhere I've traveled; or to talk on a phone during a meal.
Which is also why I said TFA missed the reason by a mile. "Everyone knows it’s rude to take a phone out at a table" isn't true at all; and demonstrates that the author is out of touch with the general public's relationship with tech.
I don't think it's age groups as much of classes of people. Certain people of all ages are glued to a screen and certain people have manners.
You got downvoted for this for using the term “class” but I tend to agree. In this context it has nothing to do with how much money you make. I have know classy broke people and trashy rich people. For me, using your phone at all during a meal better be met with an apology and, likely, some reason offered to the group, the same as if you jumped up and ran out the door. Mentally, that’s what picking up your phone is.
> classes of people
Yeah no...
Yeah no...
There are third parties that make the websites such as ChatFood: https://www.chatfood.io/order-at-table
I'll add that they better have open WiFi just to be sure everyone can actually access the menu.
I was on a wifi-only plan during covid and QR menus absolutely sucked.
I was on a wifi-only plan during covid and QR menus absolutely sucked.
#1 I saw a lot. Word documents hosted in private Google Drive accounts, mobile-unfriendly websites, etc.
The absolute worst menu experience I ever had was the Newark airport. All restaurants appear to be required to place tablets on the tables, which display a QR code that I have to scan on my phone, which requires me to create an account to order, does not accept cash, and has the audacity to ask for a tip. I flagged down a server to ask if I could just order directly, but apparently that's not allowed. I ended up going to Starbucks and getting a croissant, because I guess they had enough clout to not get roped into the mandatory ordering system.
I hate Newark airport so much because of this. Even worse, as a non-American just visiting, I tend to not have mobile data stateside. The wifi is pretty shit in many spots, I've had to literally leave one place because I could not get a wifi signal to even order and the staff refused to help. All this nonsense while there is a tablet right in front of me! Stupid company that does this, stupid airport that allowed a company to do this.
Newark is unquestionably one of the worst airports in the country. It seems to be carefully designed to make people feel unwelcome. It reminds me of the Terry Pratchett book where a building had been constructed in the shape of a demonic rune so that people moving around would activate it as if it were an evil prayer wheel.
It uses a lot of the same "hostile architecture" techniques that public spaces use to keep homeless people out. There's literally nowhere you can get comfortable, unless you want to lay on the ground in the middle of traffic.
Side note, I was thinking of Good Omens, by Terry Pratchett + Neil Gaiman, and it was a roadway, not a building:
> In fact, very few people on the face of the planet know that the very shape of the M25 forms the sigil odegra in the language of the Black Priesthood of Ancient Mu, and means "Hail the Great Beast, Devourer of Worlds." The thousands of motorists who daily fume their way around its serpentine lengths have the same effect as water on a prayer wheel, grinding out an endless fog of low-grade evil to pollute the metaphysical atmosphere for scores of miles around.
Magnificent book.
> In fact, very few people on the face of the planet know that the very shape of the M25 forms the sigil odegra in the language of the Black Priesthood of Ancient Mu, and means "Hail the Great Beast, Devourer of Worlds." The thousands of motorists who daily fume their way around its serpentine lengths have the same effect as water on a prayer wheel, grinding out an endless fog of low-grade evil to pollute the metaphysical atmosphere for scores of miles around.
Magnificent book.
I had an experience at Newark where I sat down an opened one of the mobile menu's only for a 30 second ad to start playing, the server told me "oh yeah just watch the ad and you can order after that". Like really? I'm already paying way over what the food would normally cost and you guys have the audacity to stuff an ad in front of me before I even have the privilege.
If you're paying, you're still the product.
Reading this has made me unreasonably angry.
Nice I will never fly through here ever in my life and will pay like 300$ extra just to avoid it in the future if I have to. Thanks for the tip, that is actually super useful.
> All restaurants appear to be required to place tablets on the tables
All the shops (except Starbucks) are operated by a single company: OTG. They are absolutely swimming in the monopoly dividend. There are several such airports in USA.
All the shops (except Starbucks) are operated by a single company: OTG. They are absolutely swimming in the monopoly dividend. There are several such airports in USA.
I’m all for QR code ordering (and even better, QR code payment!). With a well thought out, streamlined UX, it can be a great timesaver. But it needs to be optional: trying to force it on everyone is just crazy.
Similarly the online ordering for pickup sites that have sprung up to power the “non-DoorDash/Uber” option that restaurants want you to use. I like them, I like the usually not-inflated prices, but wish they would (A) be a fast, simple UI that works, and (B) stick to Apple/Google Pay and ask for no other info. No I don’t want to create a password or sign up for your newsletter!
I agree with this. After entering my card into Toast once, now from any restaurant I can scan the code, enter my tip amount and I'm done. So much better than using either cash or a card.
Just the time saving in not having to flag down a waiter to get the bill is great!
Why would we do QR code payments in a world where NFC payment flows exist and are well established?
The QR code is physically attached to the table and links directly to the menu and/or your bill. QR codes are cheap (any printer can print one) so don't need special equipment. And people already understand how to use QR codes: they might not understand what an NFC tag/beacon is, or it might not work with all devices.
What would NFC add that you can't do with a QR code?
(Use of a QR code doesn't preclude paying in the normal way by calling over a server and using a contactless payment terminal. It just gives you the option to skip that and pay directly from your device.)
What would NFC add that you can't do with a QR code?
(Use of a QR code doesn't preclude paying in the normal way by calling over a server and using a contactless payment terminal. It just gives you the option to skip that and pay directly from your device.)
iPhones can only do what Apple allows developers to do, which isn’t much.
A random payment provider can’t use NFC on the iPhone, but they can use the camera. So here we are. QR payments are super popular all over Asia (and yes they suck, but you can blame Apple)
A random payment provider can’t use NFC on the iPhone, but they can use the camera. So here we are. QR payments are super popular all over Asia (and yes they suck, but you can blame Apple)
If it makes you feel any better, Newark's restaurant ordering system was terrible right from when they replaced all the restaurants and added those IPads at every seat even before they threw QR codes into the mix. I wrote a blog post about it in around 2014 or so (ignore the update date - that was me resurrecting the blog after a server failure) https://www.uncarved.com/articles/falafel/
China has the best adaptation of this trend that I have seen. Simple UIs with no registration, and direct payment with Alipay and Wechat. Seamless and helps with the language barrier as well.
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In many cases you probably never even have to leave Wechat. That's assuming you even needed your phone at all and the waiter didn't just scan your face to pay.
Scanning to pay ? Damn that's horrifying.
Well I was recently at a US airport that had automatic "scan your face to board the plane" gates (non-optional) instead of providing boarding pass + passport, so from there to "scan your face to pay" it's a very small leap. They already know all about you and have your biometric identity, what's tacking a payment method to it?
Airport is a very punctual and security specific situation.
Buying things is a benign thing of your day to day life. Scanning your face to pay is a wet dream for surveillance states.
Buying things is a benign thing of your day to day life. Scanning your face to pay is a wet dream for surveillance states.
Sorry, I was responding in the original context of GP talking about Newark airport's terrible system. In it, scan your face to pay doesn't seem too far fetched; outside of it, I agree, pretty scary stuff.
So all I have to do to go on an unlimited spending spree is kidnap and lock up one of those hyper realistic mask makers? Nice
Unfortunately kidnapping them is the problem because they're always so well disguised.
What would happen if identical twins wanted to board different flights from the same airport on the same day?
It is most definitely optional
Maybe. They don't seem to mind...
You mean like they don't mind the great firewall, the good citizen passport and the concentration camp?
That wasn't part of the conversation.
But I'll bite.
Somehow I always end up defending China on HN but really I'm just sharing what I have seen/heard during my time there.
The majority of the Chinese do not worry about those things.
The great firewall is probably the greatest inconvenience you listed. However, the Chinese that come here and see FB and Google say, hey, maybe the firewall is not a bad idea. It's easy to circumvent anyway. It just blocks the majority of the population from western media.
The social credit system I don't know anything about, sorry.
The camps, AFAIK, are for Uyghurs classified as dangerous or high risk. At least, that's what the Han believe. The general understanding is if you do something like text "terrorism" as a Uyghur - you disappear for a while. I think part of this is because they are terrified the US will radicalize the muslim extremists. The truth is we barely have to - they hate the Chinese enough there are recorded events of the Uyghers just running around killing Han Chinese with knives. This was before cameras were super popular, but there is potato footage. This is partly why large cities in Xinjiang have such high security (think officers with MP5s outside every K-6 school) So, the Han do not protest at such camps.
But I'll bite.
Somehow I always end up defending China on HN but really I'm just sharing what I have seen/heard during my time there.
The majority of the Chinese do not worry about those things.
The great firewall is probably the greatest inconvenience you listed. However, the Chinese that come here and see FB and Google say, hey, maybe the firewall is not a bad idea. It's easy to circumvent anyway. It just blocks the majority of the population from western media.
The social credit system I don't know anything about, sorry.
The camps, AFAIK, are for Uyghurs classified as dangerous or high risk. At least, that's what the Han believe. The general understanding is if you do something like text "terrorism" as a Uyghur - you disappear for a while. I think part of this is because they are terrified the US will radicalize the muslim extremists. The truth is we barely have to - they hate the Chinese enough there are recorded events of the Uyghers just running around killing Han Chinese with knives. This was before cameras were super popular, but there is potato footage. This is partly why large cities in Xinjiang have such high security (think officers with MP5s outside every K-6 school) So, the Han do not protest at such camps.
Looks like the great firewall worked well for you. Painting an entire ethnicity as terrorists who slash away randomly at people is exactly the kind of propaganda it serves. Israel does the same for Palestinians. Yes, terrorism exists and should be supressed, but you can’t de-humanize entire populations based on that.
Picture yourself being jailed, taken away from your family, forced to learn another language and change your customs because “people who look like you can be dangerous”.
Picture yourself being jailed, taken away from your family, forced to learn another language and change your customs because “people who look like you can be dangerous”.
Internal destabilization by manipulating group fractures is a known specialty of US foreign policy.
China has valid reasons to be concerned about such methods given explicit admissions from the US government at the highest levels, that they are considered an enemy.
I'm in Thailand right now. The US is attempting to destabilize Thailand with the coming elections in order to break its strong ties to China, ties that are quite reasonable and rational given the cultural and economic ties between the countries. The Americans are seeking to get rid of the Thai monarchy, which the average Thai is not particularly interested in doing.
China has valid reasons to be concerned about such methods given explicit admissions from the US government at the highest levels, that they are considered an enemy.
I'm in Thailand right now. The US is attempting to destabilize Thailand with the coming elections in order to break its strong ties to China, ties that are quite reasonable and rational given the cultural and economic ties between the countries. The Americans are seeking to get rid of the Thai monarchy, which the average Thai is not particularly interested in doing.
> The camps, AFAIK, are for Uyghurs classified as dangerous or high risk. At least, that's what the Han believe.
I have a quite sobering article for you, which has a very different take on the Chinese propaganda.
https://www.theatlantic.com/the-uyghur-chronicles/
I have a quite sobering article for you, which has a very different take on the Chinese propaganda.
https://www.theatlantic.com/the-uyghur-chronicles/
It's certainly interesting. I also find this shocking:
https://youtu.be/mCtOh_7_tDo
https://youtu.be/mCtOh_7_tDo
Maybe they got used to not having freedom
If you ask them, they will say they feel pretty free, since they can send their kid to school without worrying about it being shot :)
This is an honest to God, real reply to that question :D
This is an honest to God, real reply to that question :D
Since I live in France, I also can claim that shotless schooling experience, but I also happen to be allowed to write on this very comment:
"Macron is an asshole"
Without thinking it will affect my life in any way.
So at this point, I'll just assume you are a troll and ignore you.
"Macron is an asshole"
Without thinking it will affect my life in any way.
So at this point, I'll just assume you are a troll and ignore you.
I mean, that's a good point, for sure. However, I'm just the messenger here, you should ask them. I've talked to a lot of them.
I think that, in terms of insulting the leader... most Chinese are pretty happy with Xi? But yeah, totalitarian regime, insulting leader, bad idea.
I think that, in terms of insulting the leader... most Chinese are pretty happy with Xi? But yeah, totalitarian regime, insulting leader, bad idea.
The fact that you think this is something you should be concerned about when sending your kid to school shows that you lack critical thinking and base your idea of the US on agenda pushing media instead of rationality.
I don't know how many times I have to make this clear but as I said, this is what they say.
Why do the Paris police carry military rifles?
Even in the US your kids are not likely to get shot unless they're involved with youth drug gangs, that's where most of the child gun deaths come from. In France they trade the mass shooting incidents in for truck or bomb attacks.
Even in the US your kids are not likely to get shot unless they're involved with youth drug gangs, that's where most of the child gun deaths come from. In France they trade the mass shooting incidents in for truck or bomb attacks.
> since they can send their kid to school without worrying about it being shot :)
Propaganda and brainwashing is probably a worse risk than that.
Propaganda and brainwashing is probably a worse risk than that.
Hah, I thought I was the only one! You sit in-front of that tablet at EWR and fiddle around.. I thought it might be due to a lot of people/orders, but places are always available. It's not Heathrow-like lines to enter restaurant.
Absolutely. Newark airport is a food desert disaster because of this. I've learned that if I need to stop through Newark, always buy enough food for the layover at the previous airport since it's impossible to get anything in Newark. Thanks for the Starbucks tip, I hadn't noticed that (as I don't drink coffee).
How is that legal not to accept cash?
I believe as long as the place of business is not a government agency, they are not obligated to accept all payment types.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
maybe federally, but there are local laws too, including the states of massachusetts, rhode island, and new jersey. Also NYC, Philly, and San Francisco: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/16/fac...
Blocking unbanked people from the economy is sorta bad if you have any kind of homeless population.
Blocking unbanked people from the economy is sorta bad if you have any kind of homeless population.
Not that familiar with the US, but presumably (just because it seems reasonable, and is the case here) they don't have to serve you at all (err, as long as it's not discriminating on grounds of a protected characteristic) so it would be weird for the law to require accepting cash when it also allowed them to nominally comply with that but then refuse to serve anyone who wouldn't pay by card?
cash is legal tender recognized by the country you are in. There should be no rationale to refuse it.
I believe the general rule in the US (unless there are state-specific laws that override this) is that a company is free to not do business with a cash customer, but once they do business with a customer, they cannot refuse cash payment. IE, a store could refuse to sell products for cash, but a restaurant couldn't refuse to accept cash in payment for the meal you've already eaten.
If you ate, and tried to give the restaurant $50 cash to cover the bill, what's the restaurant going to do? Call the cops? The cops will just tell the owner to take the cash or forget about it.
If you ate, and tried to give the restaurant $50 cash to cover the bill, what's the restaurant going to do? Call the cops? The cops will just tell the owner to take the cash or forget about it.
For the debt already incurred. No food served, no debt incurred by customer, business don't have to take cash.
Classic Newark.
I think they're trying to "scale" out order-taking to sell more. But interestingly it seems like they screw up the order more than if they took it from you in person.
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I refuse to use them. There isn't just one reason, but off the top of my head:
- I don't like being tracked
- I don't have a smartphone
- I like to see the prices printed because that makes it much harder to present me with different pricing based on date, my phone or profile
- Dining out is one of the few places where I can get away from computers
- I'll tip as much (or as little) as I see fit
- Places that force you and/or your companions to bring out their phones tend to have those phones on the table (with all of the associated interruptions/cat video sharings/other distractions) for the rest of the meal
Usually I just ask for a paper menu, which quite a few places still have, and if they don't they might have a customer tablet lying around. And if it is forced then I just walk, there usually are plenty of restaurants.
- I don't like being tracked
- I don't have a smartphone
- I like to see the prices printed because that makes it much harder to present me with different pricing based on date, my phone or profile
- Dining out is one of the few places where I can get away from computers
- I'll tip as much (or as little) as I see fit
- Places that force you and/or your companions to bring out their phones tend to have those phones on the table (with all of the associated interruptions/cat video sharings/other distractions) for the rest of the meal
Usually I just ask for a paper menu, which quite a few places still have, and if they don't they might have a customer tablet lying around. And if it is forced then I just walk, there usually are plenty of restaurants.
Honestly most of this is tinfoil hat level. I just agree on:
> Dining out is one of the few places where I can get away from computers"
if I go to a restaurant it's to be with people, not phones.
Physical menus are way better because they're bigger, more personal (the choice of the materials give a strong feeling for the vibe of the restaurant), more engaging and playful (it's easier to finger point stuff to the people you're with on a menu). All these are strong arguments in favor of a physical menu, there's no need to invent weird conspiracies around QR code menus.
> Dining out is one of the few places where I can get away from computers"
if I go to a restaurant it's to be with people, not phones.
Physical menus are way better because they're bigger, more personal (the choice of the materials give a strong feeling for the vibe of the restaurant), more engaging and playful (it's easier to finger point stuff to the people you're with on a menu). All these are strong arguments in favor of a physical menu, there's no need to invent weird conspiracies around QR code menus.
> Honestly most of this is tinfoil hat level.
Or you are very naive about how businesses operate today.
Or you are very naive about how businesses operate today.
It’s not business. It’s restaurants. If there’s one thing restaurants are awful are, it’s technology. They have no time, interest or margin for anything sophisticated.
And that’s why they get ripped off by ubereats and other delivery services. They will outsource their whole ordering process and lose almost 30% of their margin because they can’t be bothered to have their own app or a proper website.
Restaurants are just not tech savvy. It’s just a common industry trend. Sure you’ll find exceptions and may be someone will track you with a QR code. The reality is that they won’t.
They’d get a lot more info from you if they had a free wifi anyway.
And that’s why they get ripped off by ubereats and other delivery services. They will outsource their whole ordering process and lose almost 30% of their margin because they can’t be bothered to have their own app or a proper website.
Restaurants are just not tech savvy. It’s just a common industry trend. Sure you’ll find exceptions and may be someone will track you with a QR code. The reality is that they won’t.
They’d get a lot more info from you if they had a free wifi anyway.
Plenty of restaurants would like very much to have you order through their own website. But they are less (not not) tech savvy than the people that run the various large aggregators, who will stop at absolutely nothing to muscle their way in.
It started off with 25 cents per lead and it ends with 27% of your margin because the counterparty engages in unfair business practices, not because the restaurant isn't tech savvy. Blame the perp, not the victim.
It started off with 25 cents per lead and it ends with 27% of your margin because the counterparty engages in unfair business practices, not because the restaurant isn't tech savvy. Blame the perp, not the victim.
I dunno. One of the best SEO people I know runs a Thai restaurant and on a good day controls the whole first page when searching for Thai restaurants in his town.
That would be the exception that proves the rule then. If he's able to SEO the whole first page for Thai restaurants, that would seem to say the rest of them are terrible at the web.
His main tactic is that he grabs all the "internet real estate" that he can, that is he has a landing page for his restaurant in absolutely every place a restaurant could have a landing page.
> And that’s why they get ripped off by ubereats and other delivery services. They will outsource their whole ordering process and lose almost 30% of their margin because they can’t be bothered to have their own app or a proper website.
I don't think this makes sense. For anything but the largest chains (McD's etc), few are going to install an app just to order from you. And food aggregators have the same advantage that restaurant streets or mall food courts do: people who would like to eat but are not sure what have a place to start looking at options. Pair that with a nice unified payment and uniform no-call ordering interface, and you have a virtually unbeatable advantage compared to any restaurant handling their own orders, tech-savvy or not.
I don't think this makes sense. For anything but the largest chains (McD's etc), few are going to install an app just to order from you. And food aggregators have the same advantage that restaurant streets or mall food courts do: people who would like to eat but are not sure what have a place to start looking at options. Pair that with a nice unified payment and uniform no-call ordering interface, and you have a virtually unbeatable advantage compared to any restaurant handling their own orders, tech-savvy or not.
Or realistic. In literally all the restaurants I’ve been to in the last years, the QR code is nothing more than a link to a PDF version of the menu. Everywhere.
There’s no way they’d risk their reputation by serving a different menu to people depending, say, on the OS. Also it’s probably 100% illegal where I live.
There’s no way they’d risk their reputation by serving a different menu to people depending, say, on the OS. Also it’s probably 100% illegal where I live.
Ignore the legality of it for a second and just think what would happen when you have a dinner party that shows up where some people have different phones. The groups would immediately see the price differences.
Also, the QR menus I’ve seen don’t connect to the actual ordering process. Waitstaff come over to get the order, then they punch it into the POS device that tallies the bill. So maybe they could have dynamic pricing day to day, but not from customer to customer
Also, the QR menus I’ve seen don’t connect to the actual ordering process. Waitstaff come over to get the order, then they punch it into the POS device that tallies the bill. So maybe they could have dynamic pricing day to day, but not from customer to customer
I don't know where you live, but I would be very, very surprised if your country happened to have "mobile OS" enshrined in law as a forbidden avenue of price discrimination.
I don't know where you live but I would be very surprised if a restaurant had a high enough operational surplus to pay for any of this. Most resurants, even fancy ones are continuously a couple particular bad services away from bankruptcy.
This appears to be trying to suggest that low-margin businesses are somehow inherently immune to the idea of increasing their margins by any means necessary?
Come on, do you see absolutely no way a law preventing price discrimination could be formulated without referring to "mobile OS"? I know American laws are sometimes weirdly specific but still.
From a quick check on my government's website:
- prices must be displayed outside and inside the restaurant
- the prices can't be different depending on where they're displayed
- the displayed price must include taxes and service fees
That's enough to guarantee there's no possibly legal price discrimination. Not a single mention of "mobile OS".
From a quick check on my government's website:
- prices must be displayed outside and inside the restaurant
- the prices can't be different depending on where they're displayed
- the displayed price must include taxes and service fees
That's enough to guarantee there's no possibly legal price discrimination. Not a single mention of "mobile OS".
It's a reference to the concept in US law of protected class - discrimination is entirely legal against certain kinds of people. It's only protected classes that it is illegal to discriminate against. Specifically the law prohibits discrimination based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, age, or disability. But if your restaurant wanted to charge people named Thomas or left-handed people $2 extra, that would be totally legal.
Hmm… is a restaurant allowed to offer a kids menu?
Can they refuse to allow an adult to order from it?
https://youtu.be/Q7FxpK_yC0U
Can they refuse to allow an adult to order from it?
https://youtu.be/Q7FxpK_yC0U
Didn’t know this show, it kinda reminds me of Louie. Thanks!
Actually children menus are sometimes marked as < 12 years old now that I think of it. Not sure if it’s legal, but I don’t think it would be enforced.
Actually children menus are sometimes marked as < 12 years old now that I think of it. Not sure if it’s legal, but I don’t think it would be enforced.
The parent doesn't have a smartphone, which immediately puts them in a small minority (depending on their country and age, say 5%). Do companies use smartphones to track people? Yes, of course. But rejecting technology and returning to monke is definitely not a mainstream choice, though admittedly not as extreme as literal tinfoil hats. I think you could argue it qualifies for a figurative one, though.
They can be aware and not care. This is tinfoil hat.
Then you're using "tinfoil hat" with a much different definition than the usage I've generally seen. I tend to see the term applied in cases where somebody is mistaken about matters of fact, not merely differences in value judgments about the facts. It's the difference between "Is there meat in this dish? I'm vegan." and "Is there meat in this dish? All meat dishes are made from dolphins.". The former is reaching a different conclusion based on the same facts, whereas the latter is reaching a different conclusion based on erroneous understanding of the world. Only the latter is "tinfoil hat".
By calling a difference in value judgment "tinfoil hat", you are stating that they are wrong about the facts, not merely that they care where you don't.
By calling a difference in value judgment "tinfoil hat", you are stating that they are wrong about the facts, not merely that they care where you don't.
What do you gain from calling normal people interested in their privacy with the grave name of "tinfoil hat"?
A false sense of superiority and a big red flag.
Honestly, maybe I know more about how this stuff is used than you.
Hot tip: don't install company specific apps.
Hot tip: don't install company specific apps.
I'm not sure the dozens upon dozens of small businesses I've seen with QR linked menus are doing more than barely passing a PDF (the one they use to print their menus) or functional page that often isn't even designed for mobile are doing the vast majority of this sort of stuff. They're almost assuredly not doing any real sort of tracking, highly dynamic situational pricing, or forcing tip values.
While it's certainly possible, I find it highly unlikely. Larger chains certainly could pull it off and likely do (e.g. the McDonalds of the world), but I also don't tend to eat at those places. Places I dine could not justify creating an app for their business. Maybe people's dining choices effect these perception a bit?
Also I've yet to be anywhere that forces a tip without explicit clear gratuity information on the menus, usually related to party size. Tip culture is a whole other growing issue in that places have started introducing mandatory recovery fees and service fees instead of integrating costs into their menu prices (where they should be).
While it's certainly possible, I find it highly unlikely. Larger chains certainly could pull it off and likely do (e.g. the McDonalds of the world), but I also don't tend to eat at those places. Places I dine could not justify creating an app for their business. Maybe people's dining choices effect these perception a bit?
Also I've yet to be anywhere that forces a tip without explicit clear gratuity information on the menus, usually related to party size. Tip culture is a whole other growing issue in that places have started introducing mandatory recovery fees and service fees instead of integrating costs into their menu prices (where they should be).
This is my reasoning. I’ve never seen anything more advanced than a link to a pdf. Yes it’s possible to do some basic tracking or even serve a different pdf depending on the os. No, I don’t believe restaurants would care enough to do that. Also I’m not sure of the legal implications if it could be proven they actually do that, but at the very least their reputation would plummet, and this is the last thing a restaurant want.
I see a bunch of restaurants using flowcode, which has built-in user tracking. Not sure how many of them use the tracking features, but given that it comes free with the product I’d bet it’s a lot.
A web page doesn’t stop a restaurant from giving you a different menu. Printers exist, after all.
I would not expect custom menus to be printed on the fly based on the restaurant's camera customer face recognition. QR codes makes this kind of targetting practical enough to be routine.
Server: this guy looks rich, let me give them 'the rich prick' version of the menu.
I'm 99% sure this is possible without any technology, actually.
I'm 99% sure this is possible without any technology, actually.
Right, but i think the scenario being imagined is more like some valley startup tried to capitalize on the tracking that already exists, and through the insane amount of investment money can profit share with restaurants that use their technology. It'll start about "selection satisfaction" and be used to create a profile to present the dishes you're most likely to enjoy based on your previous data. This will help people. Then it'll creep and creep and creep. After a certain time, the company pays restaurants to remove paper menus. And then everything goes to shit. Sure, certain restaurants will capitalize on the disdain by having paper menus and raising prices to match their novelness. But the general everyday experience of the average person will be worse, with more tracking, and less money.
Go ahead and say tinfoil hat, if i told you about the current state of streaming services or social media back in the early days of those existing we'd all say the same thing. The only barrier to entry to making the world worse is money. Every app i love, every service i use, my experience with the general internet, it's all gotten worse. And it's always in service of tracking and/or profit. So it's not hard to imagine a scenario where this is possible.
It's extremely difficult to not be cynical about the world. I really mean it when i say the social apps i have to use to keep up with friends have only gotten worse. There hasn't been a single improvement in over 5 years. Every update is more ads, more tracking, less human.
Go ahead and say tinfoil hat, if i told you about the current state of streaming services or social media back in the early days of those existing we'd all say the same thing. The only barrier to entry to making the world worse is money. Every app i love, every service i use, my experience with the general internet, it's all gotten worse. And it's always in service of tracking and/or profit. So it's not hard to imagine a scenario where this is possible.
It's extremely difficult to not be cynical about the world. I really mean it when i say the social apps i have to use to keep up with friends have only gotten worse. There hasn't been a single improvement in over 5 years. Every update is more ads, more tracking, less human.
This comment got a little off track but my main point is that restaurants will adopt it when it becomes "free money", which a sufficiently capitalized start up will be able to do for a period of time. They'll handle everything for you, and it will start helpful. But as investment money dries they'll implement more and more shady practices to make up that difference.
You're spot on though. This is exactly how it goes. I've seen many, many examples of this up close and as soon as a restaurant wants you to download 'their App' to view the menu you just heard the first click of the ratchet.
What strikes me as interesting about this whole discussion is that the tech world should be a lot more knowledgeable about these patterns and far less naive about the typical tech cycle. In a nutshell you can condense it to disrupt, gain marketshare, squeeze the lemon.
Whether it's Uber, AirBNB, Food delivery, Social media, Gaming or restaurants doesn't really matter. What I've seen - under NDA - would make your skin crawl and that's just the very limited sample of all companies out there, and it's mostly just Europe. But over the course of 200+ such in depth looks at how the tech world works it is very clear to me that the new middle-men are at least as bad as the old ones were.
What strikes me as interesting about this whole discussion is that the tech world should be a lot more knowledgeable about these patterns and far less naive about the typical tech cycle. In a nutshell you can condense it to disrupt, gain marketshare, squeeze the lemon.
Whether it's Uber, AirBNB, Food delivery, Social media, Gaming or restaurants doesn't really matter. What I've seen - under NDA - would make your skin crawl and that's just the very limited sample of all companies out there, and it's mostly just Europe. But over the course of 200+ such in depth looks at how the tech world works it is very clear to me that the new middle-men are at least as bad as the old ones were.
I’ve seen about the same, except from the US side (even from companies that market themselves as “privacy friendly”).
I was just pointing out that this dystopia already can exist without tech. Tech makes it easier and takes power away from the little-guy (the server ‘doesn’t have to’ give the rich prick his expensive menu) but software doesn’t care about impressions.
I was just pointing out that this dystopia already can exist without tech. Tech makes it easier and takes power away from the little-guy (the server ‘doesn’t have to’ give the rich prick his expensive menu) but software doesn’t care about impressions.
Indeed, tech is a massive accelerator in this and leads to transnational entities becoming the dominant player (not always, but very often anyway).
Funny that it actually happens in a lot of locations with tourists. Also Chinese restaurants in the US often have a “real Chinese” menu and a regular menu in English.
But what you’re arguing doesn’t make sense. As a restaurant owner, I can change online menu prices on the fly. 4th of July? Don’t mind me if I +20% that bad boy.
That just isn’t possible with paper.
But what you’re arguing doesn’t make sense. As a restaurant owner, I can change online menu prices on the fly. 4th of July? Don’t mind me if I +20% that bad boy.
That just isn’t possible with paper.
I regularly compare ordering from business-specific apps vs. Uber Eats. I can save up to 25% on some orders with the business-specific apps. Why do you think they're a bad deal?
Because you will be paying in some other way, for instance because your data is sold out the backdoor. Ryan J Shaw always orders from these two addresses, that means he's probably living there, he orders a lot of fancy food so we can enrich his profile and sell it to the highest bidder. Any app that you install should be reviewed as to what permissions it requires and you should be very careful with anything that wants to have your location, especially if it is on a regular basis. And location is something that can be inferred from many things, that QR code that you just scanned doesn't look like it is location data but it may have location attached to it which gets recovered when you scan it. So completely invisible to you you just allowed your lat/long pair+timestamp to be sent to a bunch of servers outside of your control, and with a bit of luck with your device ID or other identifying info added to it. As well as which cell phone provider you are using, what make and model phone you've got etc.
But all that information goes to the large platform vendors (eg DoorDash, Uber Eats) if you use their app instead. What makes the business-specific app worse in this regard? At least with the business-specific app, there's one less middle man involved.
Maybe. Or maybe they just see that as their additional source of revenue. For instance there are third party libraries that you get paid to include in your app which leak all kinds of data about you. Easy money for the app vendor.
Again, I would assume that UberEats and DoorDash have been paid to install all of those third party libraries, so it still feels like a lateral move to install my local pizza app instead. The only argument I see at the moment against the belief that the major apps have installed these trackers is that they feel they can negotiate for more money when they sell my personal information, but I don't see a scenario where I'm ordering on a phone and my personal information isn't being tracked and sold.
The people who frequent HN are fairly well-informed about how the sausage is made.
Including the person you're responding to, who is telling the person above them that they are ignorant as to how the sausage is made (and I agree).
And arrogant too!
My previous close circle of friends had a restaurant etiquette where we placed our phones (then dumb at the time) in a pile and whomever picks theirs up from notifications or answered a call, they would foot the entire bill plus the tips.
You understand that an LLM running against a corpus of your collected online presence and payments would be able to make astonishing insights into your life and habits, and that anyone who had access to such a tool would have great power over you?
That list seems very reasonable. All of those things are possible (and done). I walked into one store a few years ago. They matched me to my phone and started sending me text messages in the store for discounts on different floors (and that was 15 years ago). If there is a way to grift a bit of extra cash. There will be someone willing to code it up.
For me in this case it is readability. My eyes decided in the past couple of years to go from 20/20 to can not read small print randomly anymore. Especially if I have to switch from dark room to bright phone (most restaurants). It seems okish if I am already in a bright area.
For me in this case it is readability. My eyes decided in the past couple of years to go from 20/20 to can not read small print randomly anymore. Especially if I have to switch from dark room to bright phone (most restaurants). It seems okish if I am already in a bright area.
Plus you come to the restaurant, pay top price for food, for the setting and ambiance.. and the waiter taking the order is part of the experience you buy.
I go to restaurants for every lunch break as they're affordable and serve good food in Germany.
I couldn't give a rats ass how they take my order as long as the food arrives timely and tastes good. I'm not buying some mystical pretentious dining experience. I'm buying food and a place to eat it at.
However I do care about not being tracked by my bank or some random app, which is why I pay cash and use paper menus.
I couldn't give a rats ass how they take my order as long as the food arrives timely and tastes good. I'm not buying some mystical pretentious dining experience. I'm buying food and a place to eat it at.
However I do care about not being tracked by my bank or some random app, which is why I pay cash and use paper menus.
A lot of people, myself included, really enjoy chatting with servers and absolutely consider it part of the experience that we’re paying for.
Consider that your experience is very anecdotal and the systems that have emerged surrounding dining traditions probably wouldn’t exist if everyone felt the way you did. There’s nothing pretentious or mystical about it, some people enjoy a pleasant conversation with a stranger :)
Consider that your experience is very anecdotal and the systems that have emerged surrounding dining traditions probably wouldn’t exist if everyone felt the way you did. There’s nothing pretentious or mystical about it, some people enjoy a pleasant conversation with a stranger :)
They aren't, and I wish we'd stop regurgitating this idea because restaurants use it as a justification to get out of paying servers proper wages. The person at the checkout at my local grocer is just as much "part of the experience" when I buy groceries, but their employer pays for them to be there, as opposed to expecting me to do so. This gaslighting of consumerism as an experience is damaging, and allows the greedy to foist the cost of doing business onto the customer more and more.
The customer pays for 100% of the cost of doing business.
Are you comparing dining at a restaurant to grocery shopping?
The tips are an american issue as far as I can tell. The rest of the world has no mandatory tips and manages just fine.
The tips are an american issue as far as I can tell. The rest of the world has no mandatory tips and manages just fine.
The common thread between the two is calling consumerism an "experience." This isn't a theme park. The server, retail worker, or whomever is not an actor in a costume there for the amusement of the customer. They work for their employer, carrying duties that allow that employer's business to profit, and therefor, should be paid by the employer.
And yes, this is a distictly American issue, and needs to be abolished. In the US, I worked as a bartender for $2.65 an hour in 2005. Basically, my employer payed me nothing, since that was just covering taxes, and each customer that ordered a drink from me was my main source of income. It irks me to my core when people wave this off as some normalized "part of the experience" and not a problem of greed that requires correction.
And yes, this is a distictly American issue, and needs to be abolished. In the US, I worked as a bartender for $2.65 an hour in 2005. Basically, my employer payed me nothing, since that was just covering taxes, and each customer that ordered a drink from me was my main source of income. It irks me to my core when people wave this off as some normalized "part of the experience" and not a problem of greed that requires correction.
It's still quite bizzare to me. The theme park employees are working for the employer too, just like the waiters and barmen working for the establishment. Going out for drinks with friends or for a dinner date is an experience, how could it be otherwise? I don't expect the staff to entertain me, sure, but that doesn't mean that it's just "engaging in consumerism" for the customers. I'm sorry if you have bad memories about the job, but your point of view is quite angsty and jaded.
> The common thread between the two is calling consumerism an "experience."
That is your interpretation, and tbh I expressed myself poorly. In Europe working in a restaurant earns at least minimum wage and likely more now, since the pandemic led to worker shortage. I am talking social in reference to experience. The waiter being a real person you talk to, who can inform you on menu choices. A restaurant isn't a McDonald's factory that serves calories at minimum cost price and maximum productivity. The automation trend will see people lose their jobs.
That is your interpretation, and tbh I expressed myself poorly. In Europe working in a restaurant earns at least minimum wage and likely more now, since the pandemic led to worker shortage. I am talking social in reference to experience. The waiter being a real person you talk to, who can inform you on menu choices. A restaurant isn't a McDonald's factory that serves calories at minimum cost price and maximum productivity. The automation trend will see people lose their jobs.
I would, personally. Not on the level of service, but on the way the worker should be compensated. I hate it when employees are pitted against each other at a workplace, like how they often do with sales people. I think this is exploiting them, and I don't like the idea of that, no matter what results it produces.
And you'd be wrong about tips. They are at quite a lot of places, in fact, I find that it's rarer when a system or culture explicitly does away with them. In Japan for example, people can even get upset and give back the tipped amount. And at many places, it's not called a tip, but it's rather a bribe, but frankly, I think they have a lot in common.
And you'd be wrong about tips. They are at quite a lot of places, in fact, I find that it's rarer when a system or culture explicitly does away with them. In Japan for example, people can even get upset and give back the tipped amount. And at many places, it's not called a tip, but it's rather a bribe, but frankly, I think they have a lot in common.
I get that everyone has different expectations, for a relevant number of people a restaurant is a place to eat nice food in the best state.
The US is something else altogether of course, but I can't rememeber many restaurants where I thought having a waiter a positive part of the experience. And I'm clearly not the only one, looking at the robot waiter development pace and actual sales data.
The US is something else altogether of course, but I can't rememeber many restaurants where I thought having a waiter a positive part of the experience. And I'm clearly not the only one, looking at the robot waiter development pace and actual sales data.
This is the absolute last thing I care about. If they didn't have to be part of the experience I'd rather they not be. Using human language to convey what you want is, at best, an inconvenience. It is slow and error prone. There's no reason they need to take my order.
I can agree with a lot of your points but has there been a proven case of price manipulation or tracking? While the idea of a sliding price scale sounds possible I can't see it happening without a massive backlash from the public. Tracking is much more realistic though I suspect that could be done via credit cards as that is what most people use these days.
From a business point of view, what percentage of customers do not have a smart phone?
14% or so in 2022, and dropping every year.
* Support damn Apple/Google Pay without requiring a email, phone number, login, or app! Or even allow that payment at the register, either before or after service.
* Include the table number in the code!
* Include any weekend/public holiday/service/surcharge in the prices! It makes sense not to print a new menu for 1 day a week, but this is digital and already implemented in your system!
* Don't forcefully 'suggest' a tip before service has been delivered! (in places where tips aren't customary/required).
* For fast food/take out places, include back-pressure in your ordering/time estimates. If there are 20 orders queued with one cook, don't give an estimate of 5 minutes!
* Ordering in your own time is amazing!
* Pictures are great!
* Being able to instantly remove "out of stock" items, perfect!
* Bill splitting "by default" is useful!
* Include the table number in the code!
* Include any weekend/public holiday/service/surcharge in the prices! It makes sense not to print a new menu for 1 day a week, but this is digital and already implemented in your system!
* Don't forcefully 'suggest' a tip before service has been delivered! (in places where tips aren't customary/required).
* For fast food/take out places, include back-pressure in your ordering/time estimates. If there are 20 orders queued with one cook, don't give an estimate of 5 minutes!
* Ordering in your own time is amazing!
* Pictures are great!
* Being able to instantly remove "out of stock" items, perfect!
* Bill splitting "by default" is useful!
The tipping function on electronic payments is a blight. I'm starting to see this regularly in Berlin, a place where tipping is not customary in many settings and just having this as a step you have to click through on the payment processor creates a level of social expectation.
Then have a thick skin and say no. That's the only way.
Oh I do. But are teenagers going to have a thick skin for instance? It's fine for me to reject it for now, but if it becomes a social expectation it will be hard to say no without facing social consequences.
This is how American cultural norms proliferate through technology.
This is how American cultural norms proliferate through technology.
Agreed. I visited a pizza place in London a few years back which automatically added a 15% tip to all orders. You had to ask to remove it. Social engineering at its finest; most people won’t ask to remove a tip that’s already been added. I simply never returned; I refuse to support a business that favours tipping culture over higher minimum wages.
This is standard practice in London. Virtually all table-service restaurants (but not pubs) add service charge to your bill, usually 12.5%. (15% sounds excessive, I don’t think I’ve seen that).
You are not expected to tip in addition to the service charge, and by law, staff get paid 100% of any service charge and gratuities with no deductions.
You are not expected to tip in addition to the service charge, and by law, staff get paid 100% of any service charge and gratuities with no deductions.
> by law, staff get paid 100% of any service charge and gratuities with no deductions
If only that was true. Staff are only currently entitled to 100% of cash tips - service charges paid by card are not counted, and often form part of the staff's base pay, or go to the owners.
Parliament has voted through a law which will change this - but it isn't in force yet. https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowledge/articles/2021/10/...
If only that was true. Staff are only currently entitled to 100% of cash tips - service charges paid by card are not counted, and often form part of the staff's base pay, or go to the owners.
Parliament has voted through a law which will change this - but it isn't in force yet. https://www.simplybusiness.co.uk/knowledge/articles/2021/10/...
Wow, "first consulted on in 2016"
Funny how the Tories can push through sweeping changes to our constitution in a single night, while bills like this take... 7 years just to reach their second reading in the commons.
https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2927
Funny how the Tories can push through sweeping changes to our constitution in a single night, while bills like this take... 7 years just to reach their second reading in the commons.
https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2927
It's actually this bill - https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3197 - which has been completely passed already (received royal assent).
Well, that's good news at least. But still, 7 years from consultation to passage through parliament is far too long!
> "service charges paid by card are not counted, and often form part of the staff's base pay, or go to the owners."
This was true some years ago. But now days, most (vast majority of?) restaurants are compliant with the (upcoming) law and pay out all tips to staff. Source: friends who work in the industry. This issue has gotten significant media attention in the past any any restaurant not paying out tips fairly would get shamed pretty hard!
This was true some years ago. But now days, most (vast majority of?) restaurants are compliant with the (upcoming) law and pay out all tips to staff. Source: friends who work in the industry. This issue has gotten significant media attention in the past any any restaurant not paying out tips fairly would get shamed pretty hard!
There is a tax benefit for the restaurant as well, VAT is charged on restaurant meals but not on these "service charges".
I disagree that it's all restaurants, it's closer to half. The other half might have it for groups 6+ or 8+ people.
I disagree that it's all restaurants, it's closer to half. The other half might have it for groups 6+ or 8+ people.
[deleted]
It’s 15% free extra cash flow for payment processors to calculate fees on, not for the restaurants. Then they might be able to double dip it by transfer fees, or maybe simply hold it and expire it until owners correctly configure some nuisance_feature.
"If she doesn't like it, she should learn to type."
European countries have culture stretching back a thousand years. We will resist.
I remember in Berlin back around 2004 that all the expat Americans were always online, and most of the Germans simply weren't. The things we knew about and talked about were different. Many people I knew didn't have broadband. We didn't have a shared culture.
Now everybody has phones and we are all feeding from the same spigots. Kids grew up like this.
I do think this has resulted in significant Americanization of German culture.
Now everybody has phones and we are all feeding from the same spigots. Kids grew up like this.
I do think this has resulted in significant Americanization of German culture.
It's been interesting to observe the monoculture as an American living in Germany. For instance, during the George Floyd protests in the states, there were mass demonstrations against police brutality in the US being held in Berlin.
I think that police brutality and racial discrimination are important issues, but I could not help wondering what those (mostly) teens and young adults hoped to accomplish by protesting what's happening in a completely different society thousands of kilometers away. Especially when there's plenty of discrimination to get upset about right here in Germany.
I think that police brutality and racial discrimination are important issues, but I could not help wondering what those (mostly) teens and young adults hoped to accomplish by protesting what's happening in a completely different society thousands of kilometers away. Especially when there's plenty of discrimination to get upset about right here in Germany.
I remember travelling around Europe as a young adult in the late 00s.
In every country, the teenagers dressed slightly differently, and these styles were all very different to what I saw on the streets at home in London.
Now, in every European city the teenagers, and the younger adults <35yo, are all wearing one of a handful of styles, which have been unified across borders by social media.
In every country, the teenagers dressed slightly differently, and these styles were all very different to what I saw on the streets at home in London.
Now, in every European city the teenagers, and the younger adults <35yo, are all wearing one of a handful of styles, which have been unified across borders by social media.
Revise your understanding of thick please. I a business is expecting me to do all the work to obtain service from them, they should be tipping me, not me tipping them. Next time I see Jeff Bezos's yacht maybe try to step on board and ask for my service fee...
Depends on if you pay before or after you receive your food.
I've yet to see a QR-code ordering system that let you choose to pay at the end of your meal. The idea of deciding how much to tip before you've even interacted with any of the staff or tasted your meal seems utterly absurd to me - what are you actually tipping?
If I were running a restaurant I'd explicitly avoid using a pay-up-front system largely because I'm sure for most customers it would remove any incentive to tip based on the level of service/quality of food provided.
Almost all the ones I've seen are pay-to-order, and prompt for tip (sometimes preselected!) at that time.
In the U.K. I’ve seen a lot of bar staff press 0% as they hand you the machine.
If only restaurants actually did that. All I've ever gotten from these are broken websites. Pictures are generic stock pictures (hiring a food photographer every time you change the menu is expensive), ordering is still done the old fashioned way as a means to get some overpriced drinks on your table as soon as possible, and "out of stock" is something you get told when you order because asking the kitchen to update the website as they cook is just unnecessary overhead.
In theory this can be nice, but in practice restaurants seem to use these as a way to mess with prices on the fly or save on printing menus.
In theory this can be nice, but in practice restaurants seem to use these as a way to mess with prices on the fly or save on printing menus.
Ordering via code in the US would be a challenge I think. As you said, restaurants would lose the chance to offer drinks (and appetizers and specials), and servers might lose out on tips if there’s less customer interaction.
Also, I think you’d want to charge people as they order to incentivize people to double check their orders, and that would make it harder for people to seamlessly treat each other or split shared items.
In general I think people in the US have built a lot of little rituals and social customs around how restaurants work, for better or worse, and messing with those makes people uncomfortable, especially now after all the shifts around covid
Also, I think you’d want to charge people as they order to incentivize people to double check their orders, and that would make it harder for people to seamlessly treat each other or split shared items.
In general I think people in the US have built a lot of little rituals and social customs around how restaurants work, for better or worse, and messing with those makes people uncomfortable, especially now after all the shifts around covid
> Ordering via code in the US would be a challenge I think. As you said, restaurants would lose the chance to offer drinks (and appetizers and specials), and servers might lose out on tips if there’s less customer interaction.
It might be a hard transition for a restaurant that currently has full table service, OTOH, it would be an easier challenge for a fast-casual restaurant (the kind that does “order & pay at the counter, get a number, then get served at your table”, to go to tableside ordering with QR menus.
It might be a hard transition for a restaurant that currently has full table service, OTOH, it would be an easier challenge for a fast-casual restaurant (the kind that does “order & pay at the counter, get a number, then get served at your table”, to go to tableside ordering with QR menus.
> without requiring an email, phone number, login
That's precisely what Apple's App Clips are. I've used these on several restaurant receipts and they're amazing:
https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/
You basically just scan the QR, checkout instantly with Apple Pay, and nothing to sign up for, and no horrible App to install.
That's precisely what Apple's App Clips are. I've used these on several restaurant receipts and they're amazing:
https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/
You basically just scan the QR, checkout instantly with Apple Pay, and nothing to sign up for, and no horrible App to install.
What's the lowest rate you can do in-app purchases at in an app clip? And to put it in perspective with tips, how much of that goes to poor, underpaid Apple employees and how much goes to shareholders?
In-app purchase fees only apply to digital downloaded content, not “real world” purchases like restaurant meals.
Apple do get a small cut of all Apple Pay transactions, reported to be 0.15% in the US. In Europe it will be substantially less.
Apple do get a small cut of all Apple Pay transactions, reported to be 0.15% in the US. In Europe it will be substantially less.
Nice, or rather: nice, as long as it can be wrapped in a good cross platform layer (which means that it boils down to website repackaged with the platform's out-of-browser payment mechanism).
I only know the supposed Android equivalent from the inside, and while I believe that it could be used for the "browser plus platform payment" pattern, it's main focus seems to be incremental delivery of large apps. That is a hard problem given the circumstances of the Android build process and their solution seems kind of stuck in those last 20%. Fortunately incremental is not really related to the temporary use case (if stuff like media in the menu is dealt with by the platform browser), but the attention given to (andvTwitter by) the much harder problem of incremental delivery isn't exactly helpful when that's not what you want to use it for.
I only know the supposed Android equivalent from the inside, and while I believe that it could be used for the "browser plus platform payment" pattern, it's main focus seems to be incremental delivery of large apps. That is a hard problem given the circumstances of the Android build process and their solution seems kind of stuck in those last 20%. Fortunately incremental is not really related to the temporary use case (if stuff like media in the menu is dealt with by the platform browser), but the attention given to (andvTwitter by) the much harder problem of incremental delivery isn't exactly helpful when that's not what you want to use it for.
> as long as it can be wrapped in a good cross platform layer (which means that it boils down to website repackaged with the platform's out-of-browser payment mechanism).
If you are trying to build a cross-platform application using some large framework, it will likely be too large. There is an upper size limit of 10 MB.
Once you move to platform specific tech, you can do things like grab just the image assets needed for a particular device dot pitch and resolution. Hypothetically you could use those in a WKWebView to render HTML content, although I do not know of existing efforts to do so.
If it is more than four screens I would expect the technology to be a bad fit. If you could figure out maintenance of menu changes, you'd likely be better off just using native libraries (similarly, sometimes its better to just use PHP and inline javascript)
If you are trying to build a cross-platform application using some large framework, it will likely be too large. There is an upper size limit of 10 MB.
Once you move to platform specific tech, you can do things like grab just the image assets needed for a particular device dot pitch and resolution. Hypothetically you could use those in a WKWebView to render HTML content, although I do not know of existing efforts to do so.
If it is more than four screens I would expect the technology to be a bad fit. If you could figure out maintenance of menu changes, you'd likely be better off just using native libraries (similarly, sometimes its better to just use PHP and inline javascript)
Which comes out of the bank's share, not the merchant's.
I've seen some patterns which suggest that might not always be the case. That is, apps which support Apple Pay but nudge you towards entering card details instead by making it not-the-default or hiding it behind an extra layer of UI.
For example, the Odeon cinemas app or Too Good To Go (food app). I always assumed it must be because the merchant pays a higher fee for Apple Pay transactions.
For example, the Odeon cinemas app or Too Good To Go (food app). I always assumed it must be because the merchant pays a higher fee for Apple Pay transactions.
> I always assumed it must be because the merchant pays a higher fee for Apple Pay transactions.
I've never seen evidence of such, but there is certainly concern about becoming ever more reliant on credit card companies. So there can be an odd push to set up a first-party-account-based payment method (even if that winds up actually being backed by credit cards today).
The behavior doesn't always make immediate sense - for example, Walmart going as far as to special-order payment terminals without NFC so that they can never accept contactless, but then having you pay with their app - with a credit card online transaction, which I believe is a higher rate.
For some apps, it may be that they don't prioritize Apple Pay merely because they know only some browsers support it, and only some percentage of people on those browsers have set it up.
I've never seen evidence of such, but there is certainly concern about becoming ever more reliant on credit card companies. So there can be an odd push to set up a first-party-account-based payment method (even if that winds up actually being backed by credit cards today).
The behavior doesn't always make immediate sense - for example, Walmart going as far as to special-order payment terminals without NFC so that they can never accept contactless, but then having you pay with their app - with a credit card online transaction, which I believe is a higher rate.
For some apps, it may be that they don't prioritize Apple Pay merely because they know only some browsers support it, and only some percentage of people on those browsers have set it up.
It sucks that when you scan these you can't choose to open the website.
Apps are an attack on the open web and I don't want them being able to do things like access location or other app-related things.
Apps are an attack on the open web and I don't want them being able to do things like access location or other app-related things.
There is no App in this case.
The tips are forcefully suggested to offset the cost of the order processing service.
These apps often take a 10%+ cut from every order. Which makes it hard to sell to a restaurant. If I pre-select 10% tip, most people will pay it making the app basically free and a no-brainer for the restaurant.
I think it should be communicated better, but this is how I've seen it work.
These apps often take a 10%+ cut from every order. Which makes it hard to sell to a restaurant. If I pre-select 10% tip, most people will pay it making the app basically free and a no-brainer for the restaurant.
I think it should be communicated better, but this is how I've seen it work.
Don't put your menu in fucking Facebook and force me download that app to see it.
you are assuming that the experience should be tailored on the US market
most of those assumptions don't apply outside the US
for example: tipping at the checkout, bill splitting, different timezones, different prices based on holidays and whatnot, are not a common requirement (or non existent) where I live.
OTOH constantly changing menus are quite common, they are handled in the simplest way possible: you get a printed menu with the classics and then there are blackboards all around with the daily specials and/or the waiters will tell you what they are, before taking the order
https://10619-2.s.cdn12.com/m0/Rome-Taverna-Romana-menu.jpg
most of those assumptions don't apply outside the US
for example: tipping at the checkout, bill splitting, different timezones, different prices based on holidays and whatnot, are not a common requirement (or non existent) where I live.
OTOH constantly changing menus are quite common, they are handled in the simplest way possible: you get a printed menu with the classics and then there are blackboards all around with the daily specials and/or the waiters will tell you what they are, before taking the order
https://10619-2.s.cdn12.com/m0/Rome-Taverna-Romana-menu.jpg
> Support damn Apple/Google Pay without requiring a email, phone number, login, or app!
Wait, no idea how Apple works, but with Google Wallet in Europe you just tap your phone over the POS display and it goes straight to your credit card without any other step.
Is that different in US?
Wait, no idea how Apple works, but with Google Wallet in Europe you just tap your phone over the POS display and it goes straight to your credit card without any other step.
Is that different in US?
Nah, it’s the same, but the problem is that most QR menus force you to provide a phone number when ordering which is highly invasive and unnecessary. Just let me order and pay without collecting a bunch of PII.
US has NFC although to a lesser extent than EU/Canada. But this is talking about on-device Apple/Google Pay, where you get prompted to use your stored payment with native UI.
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_pay_on_the_w...
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_pay_on_the_w...
I suppose the payment goes through the app like it does for online purchases, not via the waiter handheld/POS terminal?
Both can also be used on the web.
Red Robin has terminals at each table that can take NFC payments. No need to enter an email address. Too bad they seem to be going out of business.
Chilis does this too.
In Ukraine, this is a trend that is now in nearly 100% of venues, and it works nothing short of perfectly.
You flip through the menu on your phone and then order with a waiter. When done, you pay online via Apple Pay or whatever you want. Instantly and with tips.
Just a couple of companies do provide this service here in Ukraine and both managed to get the UI/UX just right so the experience is excellent.
Visiting Europe, I see so many absolutely brain-damaged implementations of online menus that I have to ask myself whether the developers ever used their product or if they are just dead inside people.
You flip through the menu on your phone and then order with a waiter. When done, you pay online via Apple Pay or whatever you want. Instantly and with tips.
Just a couple of companies do provide this service here in Ukraine and both managed to get the UI/UX just right so the experience is excellent.
Visiting Europe, I see so many absolutely brain-damaged implementations of online menus that I have to ask myself whether the developers ever used their product or if they are just dead inside people.
When done right, they can be awesome. I was at a local restaurant that had a good system. The QR code was connected to the actual table, as in they knew what physical table I was at. Therefore if I wanted another drink, I just opened my phone, hit the button and it was brought out 1 minute later. I didn't have to wait for a staff member, flag them down, ask for what I want, then wait for my drink.
I could also request a staff member to the table (if I preferred to talk in person). It kept a running tab of my bill and at any time I could just pay online and walk away. The feeling was like the first time just getting out of an uber and walking away. Again, I didn't have to flag down a staff member, ask for the bill, get the bill, ask for "the machine", wait for them to return, tap my credit card etc etc. It was all very well done.
Unfortunately, most QR code menus are just a link to their mobile site. It has 0 added functionality.
I could also request a staff member to the table (if I preferred to talk in person). It kept a running tab of my bill and at any time I could just pay online and walk away. The feeling was like the first time just getting out of an uber and walking away. Again, I didn't have to flag down a staff member, ask for the bill, get the bill, ask for "the machine", wait for them to return, tap my credit card etc etc. It was all very well done.
Unfortunately, most QR code menus are just a link to their mobile site. It has 0 added functionality.
So one or two companies get to know where everyone in Ukraine eats, how often, and how much they spend? No thanks.
Well, the main QR code menu service provider is conveniently one of the main banks in Ukraine and it's not an evil company.
But yes, concern is valid. But yes, they know anyway because you pay online.
But yes, concern is valid. But yes, they know anyway because you pay online.
Yeah I prefer a paper menu but I’ve never really had a problem using it.
You flip through the menu on your phone and then order with a waiter. When done, you pay online via Apple Pay or whatever you want. Instantly and with tips.
And if you don't have a phone -- you starve to death?
And if you don't have a phone -- you starve to death?
Preferably.
Or you can resort to a paper menu and/or cash payments both of which are always readily available.
Or you can resort to a paper menu and/or cash payments both of which are always readily available.
Not sure which planet you've been on these past 3 years.
But on mine, the appearance of QR menus has been paired with a disappearance of paper menus, about 50 percent of the time.
It's really quite obnoxious, actually. But that's modern tech for you.
But on mine, the appearance of QR menus has been paired with a disappearance of paper menus, about 50 percent of the time.
It's really quite obnoxious, actually. But that's modern tech for you.
old man yelling at cloud
Yes I can feel your pain. I would be sad if no paper menu was available, especially if the online version is buggy.
In Ukraine where I'm from it's not a problem.
Yes I can feel your pain. I would be sad if no paper menu was available, especially if the online version is buggy.
In Ukraine where I'm from it's not a problem.
Thanks for the compliment.
But actually my concern about people, and how gullible they seem to be for every shiny new gimmick the tech gods put in front of them.
Not the cloud, per se.
But actually my concern about people, and how gullible they seem to be for every shiny new gimmick the tech gods put in front of them.
Not the cloud, per se.
What are the companies? Interested to see their UI/UX
Virtually every QR code menu I've encountered in Ukraine used https://choiceqr.com/
One of them could be https://expz.monobank.ua/ which fits the description.
Not aware of the others
Not aware of the others
Exactly. They have the vast majority of the market and they are indeed the best.
So, yeah: The two mentioned companies do indeed have close to 100% market share. Both have excellent UI/UX.
But the company implementing it was the cheapest!
Thank God. QR menus are garbage.
The most frustrating thing about them is that many restaurants don't have their own website, and simply host the PDF on some third-party website, often through a URL shortener. So scanning a restaurant's QR code yields an obfuscated link that, when opened, immediately triggers a download of a PDF menu.
That's shady AF from a security perspective, and we should not be normalizing it.
The most frustrating thing about them is that many restaurants don't have their own website, and simply host the PDF on some third-party website, often through a URL shortener. So scanning a restaurant's QR code yields an obfuscated link that, when opened, immediately triggers a download of a PDF menu.
That's shady AF from a security perspective, and we should not be normalizing it.
Your intuition about the (in)security of PDFs is outdated. 2000s era Adobe Reader on Windows XP may have been a security nightmare, but a modern PDF app running on a mobile phone OS with bulit-in application sandboxing and a fine-grained permissions system definitely isn't.
It's less about PDFs specifically and more about normalizing the behavior where people just scan QR codes off stickers and then download and execute whatever arbitrary file the page wants to serve them.
I much preferred a PDF to some dogshit website.
Weren't people slapping malicious stickers over qr codes to infected versions of pdf menus fishing around for old android phones?
Yes, they man in the middled my menu download. They told me that Beth's Salad had no chicken, but it really had chicken.
After reading these comments I am very grateful that I have never seen any of this garbage. The main places here that use the QR menus are those reinvented food courts (don't know the hip new name). With those you order through the website, it texts you when the food is ready, and you go pick it up. Some of them make you pay at the website and other you pay when you pickup. The advantage is that that you get to spend more time together at the table socializing rather than dispersed standing in line at various restaurant stalls. The downside of course is that you then get text spams after leaving.
How do those PDF menus even work? Do they have a waiter come around and take your order? Do you order up front and the QR menu is just a convenience in addition to a large menu sign?
How do those PDF menus even work? Do they have a waiter come around and take your order? Do you order up front and the QR menu is just a convenience in addition to a large menu sign?
Depends on the chain. At one restaurant, the waiter still came to your table to take the order.
At another, the restaurant's entire menu was online and expected you to place the order through the website so that it was nearly indistinguishable from a carry-out/DoorDash order. The only difference was that you specified a table number in the order if you were dining in.
At another, the restaurant's entire menu was online and expected you to place the order through the website so that it was nearly indistinguishable from a carry-out/DoorDash order. The only difference was that you specified a table number in the order if you were dining in.
Damn sad to see the hate.
My favorite restaurants in Japan were the ones you could order at will at the table, or where you buy the ticket at the door. No flagging down servers, no waiting for the check, waiting to get checked out.
Seeing the outrage here just from scanning a qr code for the menu, it doesn't look like any automation is going to be coming any time soon.
My favorite restaurants in Japan were the ones you could order at will at the table, or where you buy the ticket at the door. No flagging down servers, no waiting for the check, waiting to get checked out.
Seeing the outrage here just from scanning a qr code for the menu, it doesn't look like any automation is going to be coming any time soon.
I'm not visiting a restaurant to get food the fastest way, I do it to relax, for the experience, to talk to whoever is with me. I just hate QR workflows for that. Do it for fast food joints, but not in proper dining places.
I happen to hate the server based workflow. When I visit a restaurant I do it to relax, for the experience, and to talk to whoever is with me. Not mess around talking to a random employee.
It goes both ways.
It goes both ways.
If it's done well it can be in addition to regular service. One thing I really like is when they make it easy to order another round of drinks or make it easy to pay without having to wait for the server to get me the check or bring a terminal over to me.
Willing to bet the experience in Japan is superior to the average we get in the US.
In the US it’s seen as pure cost cutting measure, and not integrated smoothly as part of the considered experience a lot of the time.
When it’s considered as part of the experience it works tremendously well, it’s just not common enough
In the US it’s seen as pure cost cutting measure, and not integrated smoothly as part of the considered experience a lot of the time.
When it’s considered as part of the experience it works tremendously well, it’s just not common enough
No it's janky and awful. I live here.
Same. I’ve experienced over several dozen half baked QR / digital order implementations. I guess it’s an extreme case of the second system effect, where every vendor thinks they can build a better solution than the other 10, but they don’t.
The only decent one I've encountered is Mr Yum
Restaurants that have the latter are chains or catering to tourists, and unfortunately not going to have such a system.
The latter are ramen and other cheap eats, excluding shokudo. One “boutique” ramen shop owner has told me it was not cost effective to buy a ticket vending machine. I guess you have to be at a particular scale and throughput to have a ticket vending machine. And restaurants that optimize for throughput are usually not the best ones. Again unfortunately.
Then izakayas menus are in Kanji and even Japanese people have trouble ordering at times. That’s kind of the experience and point though.
Regarding QR code based menus, I’m curious whether you’ve experienced bad implementations. I live here, traveled all 47 prefectures maybe 3 times over, and have used dozens of digital menu implementation. There’s only been 1 or 2 that were smooth, but they were not ubiquitous. The face-to-face business / sales culture here means the tech products that spread are not necessarily the good ones.
The latter are ramen and other cheap eats, excluding shokudo. One “boutique” ramen shop owner has told me it was not cost effective to buy a ticket vending machine. I guess you have to be at a particular scale and throughput to have a ticket vending machine. And restaurants that optimize for throughput are usually not the best ones. Again unfortunately.
Then izakayas menus are in Kanji and even Japanese people have trouble ordering at times. That’s kind of the experience and point though.
Regarding QR code based menus, I’m curious whether you’ve experienced bad implementations. I live here, traveled all 47 prefectures maybe 3 times over, and have used dozens of digital menu implementation. There’s only been 1 or 2 that were smooth, but they were not ubiquitous. The face-to-face business / sales culture here means the tech products that spread are not necessarily the good ones.
The problem is that they don't do it to create a seamless experience. The temptation to suck in the personal data and exchange money for some "credits" is simply too big... and an excuse not to hire any front staff.
For me, and others, ‘waiting’ is time to think, converse, or watch the world rotate. I also prefer the old fashioned method of communicating with a fellow human to order my food. I want the opposite of what you want, and that’s okay.
in my experience (here and there in the EU) servers still come and talk to you, simply the menu is a webpage. and nowadays they ask you if you need the hardcopy :)
I think a lot of the hate has to do with these being the worst possible implementations of such systems, like requiring you to create an account with a password just to order food.
QR menus are a life saver for large meetups or people you know casually. You can just scan and pay without leaving the conversation, and there is no headache around trying to recover payments from everyone, especially if you don’t know them all.
Just gimme that tablet, I hate QR but I wouldn’t mind poking that badly done HTML on Android 6, it just works better. Also feeds us food for nomikai thoughts to discuss what happens if we hit “Send” with “x99: ¥0 - Test Food Please Ignore” on the order.
so you basically want take out outside your home.
Japanese do that because eating out is cheap enough that it is an option to go there to just eat, not rarely alone, but it's absolutely not common to go to the restaurant to be left alone.
all the things you mentioned as unpleasant are part of the reason why people gather to eat together
Japanese do that because eating out is cheap enough that it is an option to go there to just eat, not rarely alone, but it's absolutely not common to go to the restaurant to be left alone.
all the things you mentioned as unpleasant are part of the reason why people gather to eat together
Who gathers together to wait for the waiter to bring the check?
Italians. Like me. While you wait for the check you drink amaro/grappa/limoncello/whatever
America is a country with tons of available cheap labour. That's why they don't need automation.
> Customers don't want to take out their phones when dining out, because it can be perceived as rude or distracting
This is why I HATE QR code menus. I’m at a restaurant to enjoy time with others. If I wanted to stare at my phone, I’d have ordered takeout or delivery. It sets up the wrong vibe.
This is why I HATE QR code menus. I’m at a restaurant to enjoy time with others. If I wanted to stare at my phone, I’d have ordered takeout or delivery. It sets up the wrong vibe.
On one hand I agree with you but on the other, it's the exact same thing as staring at a menu, just on a small metal rectangle.
So I take it you don't look at physical menus either? I imagine that would largely detract from you enjoying time with your people as you'd be staring at a piece of paper.
I just ask for a real menu, restaurants still have them. The worry about getting COVID from a paper or plastic menu was wildly overblown. Sitting in a restaurant with other people is much more of a risk than touching a menu.
Funny how expensive restaurants print their menus daily, on paper, and then throw them away after the customer uses them. Cheap restaurants have big plastic-coated menus. Simply photocopying the menu for one-time use would get around the QR code hassle/risk, and the (probably unwarranted) germ phobia.
Funny how expensive restaurants print their menus daily, on paper, and then throw them away after the customer uses them. Cheap restaurants have big plastic-coated menus. Simply photocopying the menu for one-time use would get around the QR code hassle/risk, and the (probably unwarranted) germ phobia.
> Simply photocopying the menu for one-time use would get around the QR code hassle/risk
The QR codes have nothing to do with the germ phobia, but with restaurants wanting to hire less staff. The customer does the waiter's job now.
The QR codes have nothing to do with the germ phobia, but with restaurants wanting to hire less staff. The customer does the waiter's job now.
QR codes are still a valid option where the cafe is self-service
This part made me a bit mad on behalf of restaurant owners:
> paying for the QR menus on top of printed menus can be costly — especially if customers aren't using them.
I mean, hosting a low-volume static website and printing out a URL as a QR code are nearly free. So many tech businesses take advantage of restaurant owners (and restaurants are already an extremely low margin business) solely because most restauranteurs are not tech savvy.
> paying for the QR menus on top of printed menus can be costly — especially if customers aren't using them.
I mean, hosting a low-volume static website and printing out a URL as a QR code are nearly free. So many tech businesses take advantage of restaurant owners (and restaurants are already an extremely low margin business) solely because most restauranteurs are not tech savvy.
Hosting is cheap, but people who can write HTML and CSS aren't. You need some kind of SaaS and that's where you need to know that you can use Squarespace/Wix/whatever free tool you prefer and just print out a QR code, but that's not something restaurant oriented SaaS providers will tell you.
Printing menus costs a few cents, laminating them a bit more. That's a tough price to beat.
Printing menus costs a few cents, laminating them a bit more. That's a tough price to beat.
File -> Print to pdf…
Dodgy QR code sites are surprisingly common (pro tip: convert it back to text, and see if they are bouncing through a server so they can later charge you to prevent the code from “expiring”).
S3 sync + https lambda + cdn is a shockingly huge pain in the ass to setup, but once it is done, you just “s3 sync” the directory with the pdf you printed.
I agree with your general point though. That corner of the industry is full of predatory service providers.
Dodgy QR code sites are surprisingly common (pro tip: convert it back to text, and see if they are bouncing through a server so they can later charge you to prevent the code from “expiring”).
S3 sync + https lambda + cdn is a shockingly huge pain in the ass to setup, but once it is done, you just “s3 sync” the directory with the pdf you printed.
I agree with your general point though. That corner of the industry is full of predatory service providers.
Google Docs can serve as static site
You don't need more than the basics of HTML 1.0 to make a menu for a restaurant. I had those figured out at 10.
> Hosting is cheap, but people who can write HTML and CSS aren't
The level of "create a static online version of my menu" is something ChatGPT could actually do quite easily.
The level of "create a static online version of my menu" is something ChatGPT could actually do quite easily.
I'd just rather ChatGPT order for me. "You know me, what would I like? Order that." Please make menus GPT friendly.
A relative of mine had a static site with 4 pages made for her business. Static site to show some images and files and list a phone number and email.
$13,000 dollars + monthly hosting charges.
$13,000 dollars + monthly hosting charges.
Assuming $50 per hour it’s 260 hours of work. Divide that between a programmer (static websites still need too be coded) and designer that’s 130 hours each - less than a month of work. If the website was custom made (didn’t just use a premade Wordpress template) then this price is entirely believable.
I used to make websites for small businesses. That was a decade ago but still.
There's a lot of overhead with small clients. They don't have an internal employee who makes and sends the copy and the content. You really build everything from the ground up. You also have to host it and keep it online. There's only you; you're the whole IT department.
Also I made 50 an hour a decade ago as a student. It's a low income for a freelance professional with unsteady work.
Realistically, it's closer to a month of full time work, but it's spread over 3-6 months of talking, meeting, getting feedback, waiting for images etc.
It was one of my favourite jobs because I could apply tech to solve smaller, tangible problems. It was also the hardest to live from.
There's a lot of overhead with small clients. They don't have an internal employee who makes and sends the copy and the content. You really build everything from the ground up. You also have to host it and keep it online. There's only you; you're the whole IT department.
Also I made 50 an hour a decade ago as a student. It's a low income for a freelance professional with unsteady work.
Realistically, it's closer to a month of full time work, but it's spread over 3-6 months of talking, meeting, getting feedback, waiting for images etc.
It was one of my favourite jobs because I could apply tech to solve smaller, tangible problems. It was also the hardest to live from.
2x130h for a four-page site? It's not 1998 anymore.
I was making 4 page sites in 1998. Honest time, including a log in and management of content, was a few days of work (php 3, mysql, and the awesome js that auto placed the cursor on the login input). If it didn't have db driven content, it would be a few hours max.
This math is out of touch with how good static websites are actually made these days, imho.
1. $100 per hour min for anyone good. Possibly more if in a high-cost labor market and/or working with certain agencies (mostly boutique). So that’s 130 hours right there.
2. No discussion of interaction with customer. That could be many, many hours depending on the customer and project specs.
3. The 130 hours for design and coding are way, way over actual time required unless the specs are highly stylized. My guess for each would be 4-20 hours, depending on complexity.
4. Depending on the site, copywriting and SEO might be a bigger labor/money sink than the design and coding.
All that said, there are many agencies who can make good, basic static websites for $5-7k plus hosting. The catch is knowing which ones are good.
Another possible issue, depending on the agency, is what is the smallest account that they will do business with. $13k may have been the agency’s minimum.
1. $100 per hour min for anyone good. Possibly more if in a high-cost labor market and/or working with certain agencies (mostly boutique). So that’s 130 hours right there.
2. No discussion of interaction with customer. That could be many, many hours depending on the customer and project specs.
3. The 130 hours for design and coding are way, way over actual time required unless the specs are highly stylized. My guess for each would be 4-20 hours, depending on complexity.
4. Depending on the site, copywriting and SEO might be a bigger labor/money sink than the design and coding.
All that said, there are many agencies who can make good, basic static websites for $5-7k plus hosting. The catch is knowing which ones are good.
Another possible issue, depending on the agency, is what is the smallest account that they will do business with. $13k may have been the agency’s minimum.
We have just evolved a type of racket to over charge people but this massively inefficient racket will hopefully die soon.
At this point it is really just a type of business tax and anti-progress. Paying 13k for a geocities site is increasing the probability the business fails.
I just can't imagine anyone paying that by 2030. Midjourney can already do the most amazing design work but it is stuck at the conceptual level. It won't be stuck at that stage for ever.
At this point it is really just a type of business tax and anti-progress. Paying 13k for a geocities site is increasing the probability the business fails.
I just can't imagine anyone paying that by 2030. Midjourney can already do the most amazing design work but it is stuck at the conceptual level. It won't be stuck at that stage for ever.
Wow, I need to start charging a lot more
That’s really high, unless there is part of the story that we are missing.
I could see it costing this much if there was extensive copywriting needs, detailed SEO needs, super-high performance requirements, and/or highly-stylized design.
Otherwise, that’s way overpriced.
I could see it costing this much if there was extensive copywriting needs, detailed SEO needs, super-high performance requirements, and/or highly-stylized design.
Otherwise, that’s way overpriced.
Was there custom design work?
In my experience they aren’t just static files. They are paying for an entire platform and integrated system that takes orders and payments. That’s expensive. But probably cheaper than a fully manual process.
Costs are higher for businesses that require high touch sales or support. Small businesses in general, are challenging for both.
Was just in Sweden where our local office has a vending machine.
No buttons on the machine, but a QR code. Leads to an app download. Installed. The menu is only visible after creating an account. Created account. Chose my snack. Asks for Swedish payment system. I don’t have that. Tiny option for credit card. Hope. But only Swedish cards accepted. Arghh.
No buttons on the machine, but a QR code. Leads to an app download. Installed. The menu is only visible after creating an account. Created account. Chose my snack. Asks for Swedish payment system. I don’t have that. Tiny option for credit card. Hope. But only Swedish cards accepted. Arghh.
> Was just in Sweden where our local office has a vending machine.
There is a chai vending machine in a WeWork I visit sometimes. It has a screen to choose your chai, but you can also scan a QR code. The code simply takes you to a webpage with all the options. One touch on your preferred chai, and it dispenses.
I quickly figured out that the QR code is a regular URL. I can copy it and open it in my home and spam the buttons and waste their chai all day long.
I didn't do it, but I could.
There is a chai vending machine in a WeWork I visit sometimes. It has a screen to choose your chai, but you can also scan a QR code. The code simply takes you to a webpage with all the options. One touch on your preferred chai, and it dispenses.
I quickly figured out that the QR code is a regular URL. I can copy it and open it in my home and spam the buttons and waste their chai all day long.
I didn't do it, but I could.
> I quickly figured out that the QR code is a regular URL. I can copy it and open it in my home and spam the buttons and waste their chai all day long.
I was just thinking how useful it would be to be able to preorder from your desk/on the way to the vending machine, but indeed, it sounds easily abusable.
I was just thinking how useful it would be to be able to preorder from your desk/on the way to the vending machine, but indeed, it sounds easily abusable.
You need to keep a cup underneath the spout! So you absolutely have to walk to it first. Otherwise it will just pour the chai down the drain.
>No buttons on the machine, but a QR code. Leads to an app download. Installed. The menu is only visible after creating an account. Created account. Chose my snack. Asks for Swedish payment system. I don’t have that. Tiny option for credit card.
it seems obvious to me:
>what can we do to lower operating costs?
>remove coins and banknotes from the machines and only allow credit cards, so we don't have to pay people to collect all the money!
>ok, so should we install a POS on every machine so that people can pay with the card?
>no! that would cost too much! just install a QR code so the customer has to use an app with an account and pay there, so our machine is basically as dumb and featureless as possible!
it seems obvious to me:
>what can we do to lower operating costs?
>remove coins and banknotes from the machines and only allow credit cards, so we don't have to pay people to collect all the money!
>ok, so should we install a POS on every machine so that people can pay with the card?
>no! that would cost too much! just install a QR code so the customer has to use an app with an account and pay there, so our machine is basically as dumb and featureless as possible!
So the whole point is to prevent you from buying things?
Honestly, I don't like anything that requires me to have a smartphone to use it. By all means, have it as an option; I scrutinize it more intently and am not generally gonna use/buy/like it.
About qr-code menus, there's a place that went fully online only (app required) to order their food. They don't have a kiosk on site either last I checked. It's really weird from a business sense to just cut off customers without smartphones.
About qr-code menus, there's a place that went fully online only (app required) to order their food. They don't have a kiosk on site either last I checked. It's really weird from a business sense to just cut off customers without smartphones.
One of the primary concerns regarding QR codes is their security. How can we ensure that malicious individuals are unable to place stickers containing QR codes that direct users to fraudulent payment sites pretending to be legitimate restaurants?
Worse than accidentally paying a wrong vendor, with the right zero-click zero-day remote execution sploit visiting a malicious link can lead to pwnage of your device.
This is why it's better to never click links in emails or scan QRs. I remember an Airbnb listing that mandated extra "check in" via scanning some QR and denied stay otherwise... sorry but no way.
This is why it's better to never click links in emails or scan QRs. I remember an Airbnb listing that mandated extra "check in" via scanning some QR and denied stay otherwise... sorry but no way.
The FBI put out an advisory about this very concern recently.
It’s the same threat space as those placing card skimming machines. It’s not like people are falling for this at a large scale. The ones that should care are the restaurants, since customers will just report the fraud and get refunded. In that case, restaurants will have staff validate each QR code anyways
This is way overblown. How do you see this heist going down exactly?
Someone targets a restaurant, gets QR stickers made, replicates the restaurant ordering system, replaces them on tables, hopes the servers and customers don't notice, people order, somehow the food comes? Or they order from the waiter and then pay, and somehow the bill on the faked site is correct? Then the customer leaves, and the restaurant doesn't even notice and let's this keep happening.
Oceans 14 we have your plot right here!
Someone targets a restaurant, gets QR stickers made, replicates the restaurant ordering system, replaces them on tables, hopes the servers and customers don't notice, people order, somehow the food comes? Or they order from the waiter and then pay, and somehow the bill on the faked site is correct? Then the customer leaves, and the restaurant doesn't even notice and let's this keep happening.
Oceans 14 we have your plot right here!
I always recommend https://qrmenucreator.com/ to restaurant owners. I feel it is simple enough for them to get started, gives features like instant changes and comes with a sane default layout/ui and is free of charge.
Payment and ordering would still be done in the classical way, but you get the chance to at least have an always up to date menu with the possibility to reflect when something is sold out or temporarily unavailable.
qr just add so much friction in ordering process!
* You must connected to inet,
* unlock your phone
* find the scanner apps
* pointing your phone to qrcode
* scan
* wait for menu loaded. depend on inet & server speed.
wtf. peoples came to restaurant as customer. to eat. Not as an inventory staff.
* You must connected to inet,
* unlock your phone
* find the scanner apps
* pointing your phone to qrcode
* scan
* wait for menu loaded. depend on inet & server speed.
wtf. peoples came to restaurant as customer. to eat. Not as an inventory staff.
My personal favorite:
- Realize restaurant is in a cell dead spot.
- Wander around looking for wifi code.
- Conclude the hand-written I in the password is an l or 1 on your third attempt typing it in.
- Realize restaurant is in a cell dead spot.
- Wander around looking for wifi code.
- Conclude the hand-written I in the password is an l or 1 on your third attempt typing it in.
Not to mention you cant view the entire menu at a glance and end up navigating back and forth to figure out what you want.
I'd be completely fine with QR code menus if the menu websites weren't horrifically bad 90% of the time. Doesn't take more than 10 seconds to scan the code.
* squint at the menu on the 5" screen in your palm
Ironically I've seen people take a snap of the paper menu so that they can zoom in on their handheld screens. Which works much better than zooming in on a mobile website or in an app, so another point for the paper menu.
(not as often as seeing people snap the paper menu so that they can get it through their translation service of choice or share a copy without banging their heads together, apparently paper menus only get better through technology)
(not as often as seeing people snap the paper menu so that they can get it through their translation service of choice or share a copy without banging their heads together, apparently paper menus only get better through technology)
I don't even bring a smartphone with me when I'm out so that definitely lead to a few funny moments in restaurants lately.
Your list feels a bit like r/WhereDidTheSodaGo, that is those silly infomercials that make it seem like putting dishes away in the cupboard is some monumental task. I mean "find the scanner apps"? Are there phones nowadays where the code scanner isn't just built into the camera app? I don't think I've used a dedicated scanner app for at least half a decade.
I find QR menus annoying when you're at a place where you specifically want to forget about your phone, like a nice restaurant for dinner, but I don't think they're some huge amount of work.
I find QR menus annoying when you're at a place where you specifically want to forget about your phone, like a nice restaurant for dinner, but I don't think they're some huge amount of work.
Don't overestimate the general audience. You can scan QR codes with every modern camera app, but if you don't know you can, you'll have to wait for someone to tell you. It's been months since I last saw a QR code and that was just because of a TOTP setup, I doubt most people use them in their daily lives. Many apps using them like to pretend you need to download their app to scan them as well.
My biggest issue, outside of the usual terrible websites these codes link to, is that I often find myself with a phone already on battery saving mode when I go into a restaurant at the end of the day. Having to do conscious battery management in case I want to order desert is just an unnecessary pain.
My biggest issue, outside of the usual terrible websites these codes link to, is that I often find myself with a phone already on battery saving mode when I go into a restaurant at the end of the day. Having to do conscious battery management in case I want to order desert is just an unnecessary pain.
> Don't overestimate the general audience.
I mean, yeah, sure, in 2019. But it's 2023, and certain world events forced it so that even my parents can read a QR code with their phone now.
I mean, yeah, sure, in 2019. But it's 2023, and certain world events forced it so that even my parents can read a QR code with their phone now.
Don’t forget, half these stupid things require you to give personal info to order, plus they can fingerprint your browser. It’s not great for privacy.
All of that takes 10% of the time it takes for a waiter to arrive at your table and take an order.
It’s also way faster for on iPhones which most restaurant customers have. You just lift your phone, tap the camera icon on the Lock Screen and it scans the code right away.
Then you just double tap the power button and it’s paid and ordered.
It’s also way faster for on iPhones which most restaurant customers have. You just lift your phone, tap the camera icon on the Lock Screen and it scans the code right away.
Then you just double tap the power button and it’s paid and ordered.
> It’s also way faster for on iPhones which most restaurant customers have.
That's a very US centric view of the world.
That's a very US centric view of the world.
As an android user that hates Apple I thought this was funny.
65% of the market in the US, you know basically everyone! All the plebs with androids just sit home eating our turnips and porridge dreaming that one day our children will be able to afford to check their iphones at T.G.I. McFunsters.
65% of the market in the US, you know basically everyone! All the plebs with androids just sit home eating our turnips and porridge dreaming that one day our children will be able to afford to check their iphones at T.G.I. McFunsters.
I’m Australian. iPhones are pretty much universal in developed countries outside of Asia.
I'm European. iPhones are definitely not universal here. I'm not even sure they have >40% market share in the EU.
North Korea is coloured in as '100%' Iphone Usage, It looks like on that map.
That 100% is 'Jong Un's iPhone'.
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Add to that:
QR code gets printed at different resolution and or ratio, and or laminated glare, and now not getting scanned.
QR code gets printed at different resolution and or ratio, and or laminated glare, and now not getting scanned.
Lots of good criticisms here, but I'm surprised I haven't seen my main pain point here.
My main beef is when a restaurant has no paper menu, and when you attempt to scan the QR code it takes you to a portal, where you have to REGISTER/SIGN-IN to see a menu.
Nuh-uh. F you and your dodgy dark pattern data mining crap. I'm eating somewhere else.
My main beef is when a restaurant has no paper menu, and when you attempt to scan the QR code it takes you to a portal, where you have to REGISTER/SIGN-IN to see a menu.
Nuh-uh. F you and your dodgy dark pattern data mining crap. I'm eating somewhere else.
I hate QR codes. Well hate might be too strong a word, but it bugs me that they're not human readable and thus can't be validated. It's easy for someone to print out a QR sticker and place it over the official QR code and thus get people to go to a different URL entirely - QR jacking. I'm not aware of any good defense against it other than to not trust QR codes. The better alternative is for the menu to tell you the name of the app and you download it from your choice of app store that you trust.
I quite like ordering from an app if it's well designed, but unfortunately most of them aren't, so you go round in circles trying to figure out how to get the options you want together.
I quite like ordering from an app if it's well designed, but unfortunately most of them aren't, so you go round in circles trying to figure out how to get the options you want together.
Having an app for such a scenario sounds wildly unnecessary. A very simple website can and does fill the same role, without requiring a download.
I agree, but try persuading a restaurant/bar chain that they don't need their own app.
This can be solved by the app: Present the user with the a choice before acting upon anything scanned.
Would that work just by displaying the URL? Presumably that could be gamed by using a URL shortener, so the user would be none the wiser.
> The bar dropped its coded menus in summer 2021, “the moment that it was OK for us to go back to a proper menu,” he said. His main objection to them? “A menu is a window to the soul of the restaurant, and a QR code has no soul.”
Nice intro phrase.
In the past 3 years of requesting 3-D menus, they were usually available. Otherwise, a Socratic menu emerged from conversation with staff or patrons.
Nice intro phrase.
In the past 3 years of requesting 3-D menus, they were usually available. Otherwise, a Socratic menu emerged from conversation with staff or patrons.
Slightly related: I love how in the restaurant of the Lego museum in Billund you order by putting some bricks together in a special format (each dish had it own brick configuration IIRC - maybe it also had something to do with the colors) and then you ordered by having your mini-build scanned by a machine.
QR code menus are extremely popular in countries that have wide digital payment adoptions, such as China.
Each QR code is linked to a table number. You take out your phone, turn on the camera with one click, scan the code, select the items you want to order, then click “pay”. It will take you to your digital payment provider (in China it’s often WeChat), which already has your payment info. Enter your PIN, and you’re done.
China has lacked affordable NFC payment terminals, so they went with QR codes instead (no special hardware needed, just mobile phones with cameras). They are increasingly moving to NFC, so it will mostly be like how digital payments work in the west eventually.
I really hate QR coupons at the grocery store. They are pretty easy when they scan, but grocery store glossy curved labeling makes that as hard as possible.
I really hate QR coupons at the grocery store. They are pretty easy when they scan, but grocery store glossy curved labeling makes that as hard as possible.
Apple pay is excellent when accepted. Similar experience.
The quality of the experience depends on the quality of your phone.
It's kind of like suburbia and drive-throughs: If you just assume everyone owns a nice car and drives everywhere, then it makes sense. Nevermind the pedestrian over there.
So if you want to make everything awkward for the people who haven't dropped $1k for an iPhone, this is a good way to do it. It keeps the poors and the old folks away.
It's kind of like suburbia and drive-throughs: If you just assume everyone owns a nice car and drives everywhere, then it makes sense. Nevermind the pedestrian over there.
So if you want to make everything awkward for the people who haven't dropped $1k for an iPhone, this is a good way to do it. It keeps the poors and the old folks away.
Even if you just hang onto an old iPhone for a long time (I still use my 6s), these sorts of “smartphone-required” activities become more and more painful every year.
I would honestly recommend everyone, especially on this site, use a cheap android or an old iphone from time to time to see what the experiences you’re building are like for the large subset of people who don’t upgrade to the newest iphone every year.
I would honestly recommend everyone, especially on this site, use a cheap android or an old iphone from time to time to see what the experiences you’re building are like for the large subset of people who don’t upgrade to the newest iphone every year.
I wish more restaurants used an NFC tag encoded with an image / svg, instead of downloading it over the web.
This was I wouldn’t have the initial issue of haphazardly attempting to scan the QR code, and no delays having to wait for spotty LTE to resolve itself.
Not sure about the logistics here as far as how much data NFC tags hold.
If you encode an image of the menu into a QR code/NFC tag, you do not have the main advantage of a QR code -- being able to update the menu centrally without reprinting it. At that point you might as well stick a menu on the table rather than a QR image/NFC.
While less than ideal, you could always re-encode the tags right?
1 Kb is the limit, so a text it is.
QR code menus are crap and I prefer not to use them.
You know what's even more crap? Waiting for the bill after eating.
Let me pay my bill by scanning the table's QR code in my own time!
You know what's even more crap? Waiting for the bill after eating.
Let me pay my bill by scanning the table's QR code in my own time!
I wish this was the case in Turkey, where I am currently living.
But it seems like QR menus are one way to handle inflation and changing prices for the restaurants.
I hate QR menus with a passion, but I also feel for the restaurants who would otherwise have to print new menus every few months.
But it seems like QR menus are one way to handle inflation and changing prices for the restaurants.
I hate QR menus with a passion, but I also feel for the restaurants who would otherwise have to print new menus every few months.
I built a simple service just for cases like these. You upload a pdf, get a qr code for it and you can re-upload the same pdf again and again while the qr code remains unchanged. I don’t know if the pricing is too high for Turkish market though: https://pdf2qrcode.com
QR codes are conducive to dining use cases where automation is desirable. For instance, QR codes would fit in with the old automat model [1]. A more modern example might be Chinese restaurants, where the food (i.e. temperature, taste, price) is more important than the experience (e.g. rude but fast waiters are fine).
In use cases where the experience is an important component, such as the steakhouse example from the article, QR codes can be a net negative. Automation might not be desirable there.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat
In use cases where the experience is an important component, such as the steakhouse example from the article, QR codes can be a net negative. Automation might not be desirable there.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat
So dumb when you’re handed a menu by a waiter then when you try to order be told to go on a website where you have to sign up and all sorts of rubbish.
One of the more insufferable ideas from the long line of dumb Covid ideas that solved nothing.
One of the more insufferable ideas from the long line of dumb Covid ideas that solved nothing.
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It's definitely solved some things for the restaurant, just not for the customer.
Reading the comments here, seems like countries have really good integrations with QR menus, like Apple/Google Pay, out here, in India, all we mostly get is a download for a PDF hosted on a Google Drive, that is a bunch of images and is a 50-100 MB download (because why compress?), and then you have to constantly pinch to zoom and pan through the document, I have some 40-50 of them on my phone because when I go again, I won't remember the menu already exists with me, I'll download again.
The ones that are decent are also not that great, the JS code that runs constantly stutters and its basically a delivery menu, allowing you to place orders, seems off putting in dining out.
Have had a hard time convincing waiting staff to give me a physical menu, and I keep hearing a response, we have QR, as if that's making them somehow tech-savvy. Its a restaurant, I don't think you ever need to be tech-savvy, just serve good food. Doubt they'd be able to reduce waiting staff by introducing these tech features anyway.
Worst is McDonald's (IND) attempting to force people to use the large TV touchscreens to place orders, and two or more people (helpers) keep helping you use it and eventually place the whole order for you, and it lacks customizations like no tomatoes etc, so you anyway give up and go to the counter. It's possibly an attempt to reduce work staff, but seems forced on to the customer. And the touch latency is just... resistive touch phones were a lot better.
The ones that are decent are also not that great, the JS code that runs constantly stutters and its basically a delivery menu, allowing you to place orders, seems off putting in dining out.
Have had a hard time convincing waiting staff to give me a physical menu, and I keep hearing a response, we have QR, as if that's making them somehow tech-savvy. Its a restaurant, I don't think you ever need to be tech-savvy, just serve good food. Doubt they'd be able to reduce waiting staff by introducing these tech features anyway.
Worst is McDonald's (IND) attempting to force people to use the large TV touchscreens to place orders, and two or more people (helpers) keep helping you use it and eventually place the whole order for you, and it lacks customizations like no tomatoes etc, so you anyway give up and go to the counter. It's possibly an attempt to reduce work staff, but seems forced on to the customer. And the touch latency is just... resistive touch phones were a lot better.
The QR-code menus lack personal interaction, which I actually enjoy in a restaurant. I realize that, functionally, 75% of servers offer nothing over a QR-code menu, but for me, the 25% makes up for it by recommending a good dish or explaining the "spice level", stuff like that. (Pro tip: when you eat at a Sichuan restaurant, and the server tells you it's spicy, believe him! LOL)
I'm an introverted dude, but QR-code menus just feel like I'm eating a take-out meal, but dining in, which is weird.
I'm an introverted dude, but QR-code menus just feel like I'm eating a take-out meal, but dining in, which is weird.
> A dining innovation that once looked like the future has worn out its welcome with many restaurateurs, customers and servers who say it takes the joy out of dining.
This starts out bad. I don't think the process of talking to waiter first, and at the end trying to wave someone down so I can just pay to get out of there, is the "joy of dining".
I want to eat and talk to whoever I am with, not talk to the waiter and wait for my bill.
This starts out bad. I don't think the process of talking to waiter first, and at the end trying to wave someone down so I can just pay to get out of there, is the "joy of dining".
I want to eat and talk to whoever I am with, not talk to the waiter and wait for my bill.
It's nice not to look at screens sometimes. QR menus can take you out of it.
Restaurants are where I go to have a break from "tech" and usually enjoy a meal with someone, I don't want to touch my phone while doing that.
The bar on my block (NYC) takes it a step further: they require you to install an app to see the menu. So I guess it can always be worse?
They are very inconvenient, menus tend to be designed for large display area or maybe i got used to viewing them like that and even phones with larger screens don't have enough screen real estate to look at them comfortably. Not to mention, the ones I've used were not user friendly even if i had a tablet to look at them
I appreciate the QR code menus in busy spots in Amsterdam (almost every terrace when the weather is nice). It means I could spend more time with family instead of standing in a line with people fumbling around. Service usually sucks anyway, and so the less time I could spend in line ordering the better! The PDF links are useless, but busy places will often link to a portal that also allows ordering, paying, customizing, and sometimes even has a quick repeat option for drinks. It's easier for the business (they don't have to explain the menu to everyone in the line) and also reduces friction for customers; who doesn't have a phone anyway, especially those with kids.
While there might be some tracking or what not, it's probably less harmful than all the other tracking going on, including even the carrier's own systems.
While there might be some tracking or what not, it's probably less harmful than all the other tracking going on, including even the carrier's own systems.
Lotta hate for QR menus. I am not a big fan myself, but here are some advantages:
- sanitary: coming back from the pandemic a lot of people were/are trying to avoid touching stuff other people touch
- menu costs: facilitates adjusting prices. While this may not seem like an advantage, the truth is that if restaurants had the cost of re-printing their menu to accommodate higher prices, they would probably do it in a bump and possibly overshoot to account for the possibility they will have to do it again soon.
- for some restaurants, it also serves as a way to attract certain crowds. For example, a restaurant catering to older people is likely not going to do this, but a hip restaurant vying for a teenager clientele might very well use it as a means of "branding"
- sanitary: coming back from the pandemic a lot of people were/are trying to avoid touching stuff other people touch
- menu costs: facilitates adjusting prices. While this may not seem like an advantage, the truth is that if restaurants had the cost of re-printing their menu to accommodate higher prices, they would probably do it in a bump and possibly overshoot to account for the possibility they will have to do it again soon.
- for some restaurants, it also serves as a way to attract certain crowds. For example, a restaurant catering to older people is likely not going to do this, but a hip restaurant vying for a teenager clientele might very well use it as a means of "branding"
Pre 2015. Boss wants a banner printed with some QR code. I state we should also include the URL, because no one knows what a QR code does until it's scanned. Boss disagreed. Android had an exploit at the time with #* codes that would brick the phone. Generated a QR code based on that exploit. Had a "dummy" banner printed. Had the boss test it. The phone went blank and it was a brick after that. The URL was included in the banner. With how easy this was to pull off, I haven't wanted to scan a QR code since. You are free to make your own choices, you don't get to choose the outcome.
What was your boss's reaction to having their phone get bricked?
I don't recall so I'm guessing it wasn't a big deal. Conjecture: The department had stacks of phones for loaner use, maybe they just got a replacement. I remember having several on my desk to play with at the time.
The number of times I’ve tried to scan a QR code menu only to realize I have no service is shocking.
Like, a basement bar should be aware pretty quickly why everyone seems to be sharing a single phone for the menu - it’s the only one that loads!
Like, a basement bar should be aware pretty quickly why everyone seems to be sharing a single phone for the menu - it’s the only one that loads!
> “If they had a choice, I would say, 90 percent of customers would say: ‘I’d just rather place my order with you.’”
I stopped reading at that point because they're conflating two very different ideas. It's one thing to have a QR menu, it's another thing to have a contactless ordering system. Most of the restaurants in my area have QR code menus, almost none of them have a contactless ordering system - the server takes your order. A lot of those same restaurants bring a payment device to your table instead of a bill so you can take care of your bill when you're ready.
It works great.
I stopped reading at that point because they're conflating two very different ideas. It's one thing to have a QR menu, it's another thing to have a contactless ordering system. Most of the restaurants in my area have QR code menus, almost none of them have a contactless ordering system - the server takes your order. A lot of those same restaurants bring a payment device to your table instead of a bill so you can take care of your bill when you're ready.
It works great.
Around here the overlap is nearly perfect, so I didn't bat an eye when the author treated them as the same thing. And from my table, they're both annoying and undesirable.
I think the biggest issue with them is the experience and/or performance is almost always dogshit. If switching between menu sections can take an arbitrary amount of time or just straight up fail I'm not going to have a good experience. If you load a poster sized 500MB PDF onto my 5.4 inch screen then I can spend my evening scrolling around looking for the dish I think I remembered seeing.
I feel like every SaaS provider in this space just had a really low bar for "minimum" in MVP and never bothered improving it through the whole pandemic.
I feel like every SaaS provider in this space just had a really low bar for "minimum" in MVP and never bothered improving it through the whole pandemic.
I stopped visiting a restaurant near work that insisted on a QR code menu. It linked to a PDF replica of their old paper menu. Pain in the ass zooming in and out and scrolling around trying to find items.
One problem a QR-menu solves is that at least there is always a menu at hand, and you don't have to ask some-one for the menu, or have them take it away.
If you have physical menus, you should ALSO have a QR menu, just to make sure that people can order (additional) dishes and drinks without having to ask or hunt for a menu first.
And don't get me started on multiple physical menus that look the same externally, but one is the wine list, the other is only for lunch, etc.
If you have physical menus, you should ALSO have a QR menu, just to make sure that people can order (additional) dishes and drinks without having to ask or hunt for a menu first.
And don't get me started on multiple physical menus that look the same externally, but one is the wine list, the other is only for lunch, etc.
For the most part restaurants just link their pdf menu or their site.
But do people think there is room for a better menu experience through the browser?
I feel like there is but haven't really seen it yet.
But do people think there is room for a better menu experience through the browser?
I feel like there is but haven't really seen it yet.
All I want is to be able to order from wherever I am and have it be there at a table at a designated time. Call it pre-ordering+reservation or pro-ordering.
I don’t need any pageantry at 95% of restaurants by the waiter or waitress then long wait times while they prepare the food.
Some restaurants allow it and will ask you to pay first, some will act like you are from another galaxy, and others aren’t sure how to approach the situation.
I don’t need any pageantry at 95% of restaurants by the waiter or waitress then long wait times while they prepare the food.
Some restaurants allow it and will ask you to pay first, some will act like you are from another galaxy, and others aren’t sure how to approach the situation.
Just letting you know, that here in Tbilisi (Georgia) it’s in every single restaurant and to be honest it’s awesome. You can see the latest version, pictures, you can pick the language. It’s a pity it’s not possible to order and pay. That would be awesome. I think paper menus are only needed in higher end places where you go for “experiences” and not to dinner
They were going strong in Asia before the pandemic and they're still going strong now. The hatred of QR codes isn't universal.
Strong in China. I haven't seen them much elsewhere.
Became very popular in Spain during covid
Went to a restaurant in BWI and saw this Q-code, tried it using iPhone Safari.
cricket
Asked for hard menu, they said "we don't have them any more". Later learned that people toss these hard menu into the trash when confronted with Q-code offer.
Sounds like an active protests going on in form of a Denial-of-Service (via deprivation of hard menus).
cricket
Asked for hard menu, they said "we don't have them any more". Later learned that people toss these hard menu into the trash when confronted with Q-code offer.
Sounds like an active protests going on in form of a Denial-of-Service (via deprivation of hard menus).
Thank Cthulhu.
What a disaster; especially when you snap the QR, and are immediately shown a massive, full-page ad, that you need to dismiss, before seeing the part of the menu that you don't care about, and then, find out that the designer had no grasp of Information Architecture, as you stumble around, searching for the dish you want.
What a disaster; especially when you snap the QR, and are immediately shown a massive, full-page ad, that you need to dismiss, before seeing the part of the menu that you don't care about, and then, find out that the designer had no grasp of Information Architecture, as you stumble around, searching for the dish you want.
The version of this I much prefer is tablet on the side of the table, though I understand people are concerned about hygiene.
Keep in mind that the Covid-19 putative justification for QR codes was touchless interaction --- multiple people weren't handling the same menu.
Printing out single-use paper menus runs less than a dime an impression. Laminated menus which can be sanitised after each use would have a per-instance cost below that and can be reused 100s to 1,000s of times.
Printing out single-use paper menus runs less than a dime an impression. Laminated menus which can be sanitised after each use would have a per-instance cost below that and can be reused 100s to 1,000s of times.
Those tablets are going to get as dirty as physical menus, at least. They can be cleaned easily enough, however.
Sounds like this would eventually generate a horrendous amount of e-waste.
Something I've found depressingly common with QR code menus is the inability to translate them. Either they're a downloadable PDF, or they're some javascript abomination that Chrome won't translate.
At least with a paper menu I can point Google Translate at it and get something understandable back!
At least with a paper menu I can point Google Translate at it and get something understandable back!
We'll need your phone number and email. Here are the terms and conditions. Expecting mobile website, what kind of weirdo are you?! Download our app or Facebook. Pay with our credits, minimum recharge amount is 20 EUR. The balance expires after 12 months. We gamified the UI to piss you off even more. Enjoy!
if i could order the food from the digital menu, and pay, then I'd be on board as a nice value add. Otherwise it's just a cheap cost cutting measure that restaurants ignore or are ignorant of, the tracking implications of having a 3rd party aggregator know what food i like and where I am.
but if customers won't use our qr code menus then how are we going to charge iphone users higher prices
last time I encountered this, I had my phone on me, but had no cell signal in the area and the restaurant had no public wifi. I asked my server for a physical menu and they brought me a goddamn iPad with the brightness locked to max in a dimly lit restaurant. Absolutely awful.
If you own a restaurant that uses QR code menus, please know I will never come to your establishment.
I didn't realize one of the larger Luddite revolutions of my time, would be how folks want to order food when they go out.
Are there some annoyances with implementations? Of course. I've also had terrible cashiers before. YMMV is true of the old and the new.
Are there some annoyances with implementations? Of course. I've also had terrible cashiers before. YMMV is true of the old and the new.
In Beirut, almost every place that's not a hole-in-the-wall falafel joint has a QR menu. It was sad to see just how much society has bent to cope with the crazy inflation.
Reason for failure:
Ordering takes longer with QR than saying:
I'd like a double bacon cheesburger, extra bacon, lettuce and tomato on the side with a side of fries and medium sprite in a large cup.
Ordering takes longer with QR than saying:
I'd like a double bacon cheesburger, extra bacon, lettuce and tomato on the side with a side of fries and medium sprite in a large cup.
In Czech republic, most restaurants use the same native app, which works much better then home-made irresponsive websites I've seen used abroad.
In the US.
It is still very popular throughout Asia Pacific and even starting its journey in places like South Korea and Japan who have had alternative ways of ordering food.
It is still very popular throughout Asia Pacific and even starting its journey in places like South Korea and Japan who have had alternative ways of ordering food.
It very common im China. Qr code link to websites and online payment. They even start a timer to track wait time.
““It’s very hard to order a $70 steak off a QR code — or a $200 bottle of wine. It just doesn’t feel right.””
Lol probably easier. More abstract on a phone than seeing it on a posh menu.
I mainly hate when online ordering websites invite or strongly suggest that you create an account.
i love QR-code menus, especially if i can place my order and pay through there.
it's not rude. it's ultra-convenient; you don't have to wait on service. i will continue to scan.
it's not rude. it's ultra-convenient; you don't have to wait on service. i will continue to scan.
I don't carry payment cards with me and pay with cash everywhere I go.
I refuse to provide PII to strangers to buy food.
These were terrible and I'm glad they are going away.
Normalize not needing a smartphone or a payment card to exist in society.
I refuse to provide PII to strangers to buy food.
These were terrible and I'm glad they are going away.
Normalize not needing a smartphone or a payment card to exist in society.
Even though I pay with a debit card most of the time, I still refuse to frequent card-only places exactly for that reason. Having a smartphone on you should never by a requirement to participate in society.
I love QR menus, I live in Asia though.
I like the QR-code menus.
Url changed from https://www.businessinsider.com/people-hate-qr-code-menus-re..., which points to this.
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https://archive.ph/XrO8i