I'm giving away my startup idea to a deserving Haxor
74 comments
OK, so here's the idea.
Initially I was looking to add a flex developer to my team because it would perfectly suit flex/Air. But I am learning that now so this shouldnt be a problem in the future.
I was looking to develop a widget-based game creation system, based on customizing a pre-set group of parameters. its limited at first, but as the community grows so will features.
Games are output into a widget, shareable amongst other websites (our favs - facebook, myspace, etc).
Of course there would be ranking and normal community features involved, as well as an air-based arcade where you can play your own custom games and other user's games as well.
users can completely skin their game, and depending on how long they spend on it, it could become quite an extensive game. The only limits would be user creativity.
This is one of my favorite ideas, being a gamer, but I am so focused on my other ideas that I think this is going to suffer. Without being able to have a team to dedicate to it, I have to give it up. Enjoy! Flame me if you want, or say it's been done b4! (kinda like my idea for peanut butter and jelly singles...hahaha)!
Initially I was looking to add a flex developer to my team because it would perfectly suit flex/Air. But I am learning that now so this shouldnt be a problem in the future.
I was looking to develop a widget-based game creation system, based on customizing a pre-set group of parameters. its limited at first, but as the community grows so will features.
Games are output into a widget, shareable amongst other websites (our favs - facebook, myspace, etc).
Of course there would be ranking and normal community features involved, as well as an air-based arcade where you can play your own custom games and other user's games as well.
users can completely skin their game, and depending on how long they spend on it, it could become quite an extensive game. The only limits would be user creativity.
This is one of my favorite ideas, being a gamer, but I am so focused on my other ideas that I think this is going to suffer. Without being able to have a team to dedicate to it, I have to give it up. Enjoy! Flame me if you want, or say it's been done b4! (kinda like my idea for peanut butter and jelly singles...hahaha)!
Kudos for letting your idea out. Have you seen Sproutbuilder's beta yet?
Having worked with Flex extensively - I think it would take at least 3-6 months to prototype.
Having worked with Flex extensively - I think it would take at least 3-6 months to prototype.
I have access to the designers and illustrators, as well as a few programmers, but they are on different projects right now. i just couldnt seem to focus on it. I wish i could, because games are my passion, and I think this would be popular.
sprout builder is great imo. i would like to have some features similar to theirs editing wise. Very inspiring, and i have been a fan since i saw their demo.
I completely 100% agree! (Still love Flex though)
I'm not sure where the idea is hiding in this description. Game-making systems are an old idea, so that's not it:
http://www.garrykitchen.com/product_history/garry_kitchens_g...
Sharing things between websites is, well, pretty old too. So that's not the idea.
http://www.garrykitchen.com/product_history/garry_kitchens_g...
Sharing things between websites is, well, pretty old too. So that's not the idea.
Is game maker web based? can you share your games on facebook? how do you monetize your games with game maker?
There are vital differences.
Look at aviary. i have photoshop, why would I use it? Because i can use it from anywhere and share it anywhere.
There are vital differences.
Look at aviary. i have photoshop, why would I use it? Because i can use it from anywhere and share it anywhere.
My cofounder and I have been working on exactly this idea (web-based game maker, can share games on Facebook/MySpace, targetted at non-programming users) for the last 15 months. Six months of that has been full-time work. Other competition - folks with released products - includes http://sploder.com/, http://www.gamebrix.net/ (they've got $500k in angel funding and 8 developers on it), and http://www.mygame.com/. Both Sploder and GameBrix have been working on this for at least 6 months longer than us, so they've got at least 2 years of development behind their current releases. I believe the FuzzWich guys spent some time trying to develop a game-making platform before they started their current idea, and I've heard of at least another half-dozen startups in stealth mode that're doing the same thing, though obviously I don't know the details. So you're not the only one who's had this idea. ;-)
The problem is that "a widget-based game maker" does not let you create fun games for any reasonable definition of fun, and a system that does let you create fun games is probably too hard for ordinary non-programming users to learn. Play around with GameBrix for a few minutes and then decide whether any of the games generated by it are stuff you'd be willing to show your friends. And judging from the GameBrix screencasts, their builder isn't all that easy to use anyway. Sploder's done a bit better - you can at least figure out how to use it in 5 minutes - but it gives you very limited customization. It's more like a map editor for common strategy games than a game creator itself.
Anything more complicated than that requires a lot of both UI and technical discipline. We've run into some really thorny technical issues when trying to develop a UI that's both flexible and simple to learn, and we keep running into them. It makes me wonder whether the problem is even tractable, given the long history of attempts to solve it and the noted lack of success outside of specific domains (eg. GameMaker, Quake mods).
So that's what the view looks like from 15 months in. I definitely still think there's something to this, otherwise I wouldn't still be working on it. But be prepared for some really tricky technical issues - you'll want a top-notch technical cofounder, because otherwise you'll be pretty limited in what you can do.
The problem is that "a widget-based game maker" does not let you create fun games for any reasonable definition of fun, and a system that does let you create fun games is probably too hard for ordinary non-programming users to learn. Play around with GameBrix for a few minutes and then decide whether any of the games generated by it are stuff you'd be willing to show your friends. And judging from the GameBrix screencasts, their builder isn't all that easy to use anyway. Sploder's done a bit better - you can at least figure out how to use it in 5 minutes - but it gives you very limited customization. It's more like a map editor for common strategy games than a game creator itself.
Anything more complicated than that requires a lot of both UI and technical discipline. We've run into some really thorny technical issues when trying to develop a UI that's both flexible and simple to learn, and we keep running into them. It makes me wonder whether the problem is even tractable, given the long history of attempts to solve it and the noted lack of success outside of specific domains (eg. GameMaker, Quake mods).
So that's what the view looks like from 15 months in. I definitely still think there's something to this, otherwise I wouldn't still be working on it. But be prepared for some really tricky technical issues - you'll want a top-notch technical cofounder, because otherwise you'll be pretty limited in what you can do.
Thanks a lot for the links. It brings into perspective what those sites are missing,from what i can tell, that would make this idea more viable. But I do have to disagree with you on a point.
I do believe that a widget based game maker can make original games as long as its open enough to allow creativity. From a programming stand-point this directly affects usability, but I would approach it from a design position.
Imagine a standard 2d side-scrolling platform engine. Characters have a bunch of predefined states. Users must only choose which states they want their character to have(selectable through a survey or wizard). What differentiates Mario from Sonic is only a few actions difference.
They are mostly distinct in design. Allow users a "bone man" with pre-made animations and abilities. Users can build the look with our online editor. then the designs are applied to the appropriate section of the "bone man".
Background tiles and objects can also be skinned or selected from pre-made props.
Right now at my 9-5 I am working on a children's virtual world and the most time intensive process is asset creation. This would also be the case in the stated idea. Animations, character states, and npc's and props would have to be developed over time, and can also be user submitted to speed up the process.
I would do 2d games
a puzzle game (standard scrolling, adjustable rules)
a fighting game (actions ability and looks would be adjustable to name a few)
a side scroller action game
a racing game
and others.
All of these would have premade "bone man" animations stock that can define a player's personality and skill set.
The custom design is the key in my opinion. i personally would love this.
I do believe that a widget based game maker can make original games as long as its open enough to allow creativity. From a programming stand-point this directly affects usability, but I would approach it from a design position.
Imagine a standard 2d side-scrolling platform engine. Characters have a bunch of predefined states. Users must only choose which states they want their character to have(selectable through a survey or wizard). What differentiates Mario from Sonic is only a few actions difference.
They are mostly distinct in design. Allow users a "bone man" with pre-made animations and abilities. Users can build the look with our online editor. then the designs are applied to the appropriate section of the "bone man".
Background tiles and objects can also be skinned or selected from pre-made props.
Right now at my 9-5 I am working on a children's virtual world and the most time intensive process is asset creation. This would also be the case in the stated idea. Animations, character states, and npc's and props would have to be developed over time, and can also be user submitted to speed up the process.
I would do 2d games
a puzzle game (standard scrolling, adjustable rules)
a fighting game (actions ability and looks would be adjustable to name a few)
a side scroller action game
a racing game
and others.
All of these would have premade "bone man" animations stock that can define a player's personality and skill set.
The custom design is the key in my opinion. i personally would love this.
Sort of a side story but hopefully illustrative of the problems in this space. A couple of months ago I started on a side project to do a game creation suite modelled on the Dvorak card game (a Nomic varient). This is a very small subset of what y'all are trying to do, but some similar problems.
The very brief summary of the game is that Dvorak is a very basic card game with each card created at the beginning of the game. In other words, custom game creation within limited parameters. If you want more on the ruleset google and go to the co.uk site. My idea was to take this in a 'Magic the Gathering' esque direction. Set up a basic model for combat, and have each card be taggable. Each tag would contain a function as a String (some extension of Rails's acts as taggable on steroids plugin and Raganwald's work on methods as Strings in Ruby). Consequently, any action could be custom defined in ruby code as a method and then attached to a card. The end user might not be proficient with Ruby but could create their own card set with the attributes/tags provided. I also had a basic attack/defend hitpoint system designed , never implemented.
Well, the short story is I found that from a design side this worked great. In fact, I used the same principles to make several card games and played them with friends locally (in Tokyo). But translating this concept into computer code was far too difficult and time consuming and with little or no upside. Doing anything even marginally visually satisfying w/ the GUI (esp. off Rails) is also no small undertaking.
Consequently, my advice in this space is to:
(1) Start small - single concept which could be expanded upon and preferably has some inherent profitability
(2) Extensively discuss the technical details w/ someone who knows their 'shit.' No offense poppy, but you don't seem to have done this and much of what you say seems impracticable.
The very brief summary of the game is that Dvorak is a very basic card game with each card created at the beginning of the game. In other words, custom game creation within limited parameters. If you want more on the ruleset google and go to the co.uk site. My idea was to take this in a 'Magic the Gathering' esque direction. Set up a basic model for combat, and have each card be taggable. Each tag would contain a function as a String (some extension of Rails's acts as taggable on steroids plugin and Raganwald's work on methods as Strings in Ruby). Consequently, any action could be custom defined in ruby code as a method and then attached to a card. The end user might not be proficient with Ruby but could create their own card set with the attributes/tags provided. I also had a basic attack/defend hitpoint system designed , never implemented.
Well, the short story is I found that from a design side this worked great. In fact, I used the same principles to make several card games and played them with friends locally (in Tokyo). But translating this concept into computer code was far too difficult and time consuming and with little or no upside. Doing anything even marginally visually satisfying w/ the GUI (esp. off Rails) is also no small undertaking.
Consequently, my advice in this space is to:
(1) Start small - single concept which could be expanded upon and preferably has some inherent profitability
(2) Extensively discuss the technical details w/ someone who knows their 'shit.' No offense poppy, but you don't seem to have done this and much of what you say seems impracticable.
I think Will Wright's Spore is going to knock this space wide open. It's not web-based, but it is multi-platform and web-enabled. Spore focuses on procedural user-generated content and sharing it across devices as diverse as phones, Nintendo DSes, Wii, PC, and other platforms. It's not completely a game creation toolkit because it doesn't offer the in-depth control that programming offers. But it's related in that Wright's philosophy is to provide an open-ended 'toy' which enables players to create their own game. As a gamer and hacker myself I look forward to seeing this trend develop further.
Is game maker web based?
No, but that was from 1985. There's at least one company that publishes user-submitted games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongregate
Whatever the economics behind that, someone is getting paid. I don't know much about the game business, but it seems like there are a lot of great people working for next-to-nothing on the fringes. I can't imagine how popular a connect-the-dots approach to design would be.
You basically were asking for criticism, so I'm giving it. Obviously, there are far, far...far...stupider things on facebook, so it may well be a big hit.
No, but that was from 1985. There's at least one company that publishes user-submitted games:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongregate
Whatever the economics behind that, someone is getting paid. I don't know much about the game business, but it seems like there are a lot of great people working for next-to-nothing on the fringes. I can't imagine how popular a connect-the-dots approach to design would be.
You basically were asking for criticism, so I'm giving it. Obviously, there are far, far...far...stupider things on facebook, so it may well be a big hit.
Kongregate is a different thing. Kongregate is for game developers, who already do games in Flash for example. I understand what he's proposing is different or is at least targeted to a different group of people (not professional game developers, but just people who'd like to design their own games, and to share them).
And I think it's an interesting idea (I work, or used to, in the game dev industry).
And I think it's an interesting idea (I work, or used to, in the game dev industry).
sorry for sounding like an a-hole. i was just noting the differences. Kongregate is far different as well. I want users to create the game through the site-based tools/ within set parameters. More like kongregate-mixed with game creator-mixed with the facebook widget
sorry for sounding like an a-hole
I don't believe you did. If you want to see want an a-hole sounds like, look through my comment history.
I don't believe you did. If you want to see want an a-hole sounds like, look through my comment history.
I looked through his comment history, and it's true! :)
I like it. I would love to see a web-based easy to use game-builder. I wouldn’t use it myself, but I think many people would and I would enjoy playing other peoples’ games.
The major drawback is that it is technically difficult to implement.
The major drawback is that it is technically difficult to implement.
nostrademons is working on something along these lines, IIRC.
I forgot to add an important feature. I would monetize the games and do a profit-sharing with the users by creating In-game or widget based overlay ads. As well as traditional advertisement. Also, concerning monetization, I would have sponsored events where users compete on creations for leading brands. the winning project is of course distributed branded by that product mainstream. There are unlimited options with respect to money.
You could also make it more granular and allow users to 'tip' other users who make in-game widgets, or even part of a widget (think areas of in-game play, travel etc). Tipjoy might be a good partner to go in with this one. Alternatively, do something with the AFP to allow users to 'tip' but you do keep a percentage.
I would also have an offline strategy where we could bundle some of the best on a cd compilation for added revenue generators. also release the best ones on xbox live through xna. this would spread the word as well.
Opening technical tasks to non-technical users can be a good direction (wufoo, for example). The business and idea could go either way, depending on execution, like everyone else will point out, I imagine. It's not clear to me what the revenue model would be.
completely agree! I have listed some revenue generator ideas somewhere in this thread.
Zynga?
It would be similar to Zynga, with a few major differences. Zynga games can be created/edited by experienced developers. i want to create the basic framework, and libraries and just have wizards and online creation so a 10 yr old can make his own game.
I planned on targeting a more mainstream audience with respect to game creation. Simple tools, but robust design features, as well as an extensive library of props can go a long way.
I planned on targeting a more mainstream audience with respect to game creation. Simple tools, but robust design features, as well as an extensive library of props can go a long way.
Zynga is much more in the Kongregate/Newground space, serving as a hosting & distribution service for Flash games made by experienced developers. This guy (and us) are targeting programming novices who want to create their own games without programming experience.
I can't wait until your project debuts. it sounds great...
I think you should just release the idea here. I think releasing it to a single person is going to severely limit the chances of it becoming a real thing. If it's a good (or great) idea, multiple people might be interested in building something based on your idea.
He could probably give the idea to 100 people and get a hundred different products of wildly varying quality and feature sets.
It's kind of arrogant of the OP to assume that his precious idea (which of course no one else has ever conceived of in any capacity) is so valuable, like a beautiful fragile snowflake, that it must be carefully protected and only revealed to a deserving "haxor".
It's kind of arrogant of the OP to assume that his precious idea (which of course no one else has ever conceived of in any capacity) is so valuable, like a beautiful fragile snowflake, that it must be carefully protected and only revealed to a deserving "haxor".
"... It's kind of arrogant of the OP to assume that his precious idea (which of course no one else has ever conceived of in any capacity) is so valuable ..."
Exactly my sentiment. Of course the value of the idea can be judged by the selling price it receives. Is it for sale?
Exactly my sentiment. Of course the value of the idea can be judged by the selling price it receives. Is it for sale?
Good idea. I'm a bit hesitant now because if the idea sucks I will look like an idiot. But hey, good idea!
I think Howard Aitken was the one who said it first, but regardless:
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
Always apropos in such times of uncertainty...
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
Always apropos in such times of uncertainty...
Ideas can be good, they can be bad. Any clues on your concept?
I'll shoot out this idea I had so it doesn't make you look like an idiot if you release it.
Take the onboard heads-up display technology from F-16 fighter jets/certain GM cars and integrate it onto the dashboard of a car with the digital radio and a lyric database - and voila - Drive-time Karaoke (bouncing ball optional) - Lawsuits (e.g. I" had to sing along to Since You've Been Gone, Officer") would stop a company from selling this but I wouldn't mind developing a workable prototype
I'll shoot out this idea I had so it doesn't make you look like an idiot if you release it.
Take the onboard heads-up display technology from F-16 fighter jets/certain GM cars and integrate it onto the dashboard of a car with the digital radio and a lyric database - and voila - Drive-time Karaoke (bouncing ball optional) - Lawsuits (e.g. I" had to sing along to Since You've Been Gone, Officer") would stop a company from selling this but I wouldn't mind developing a workable prototype
I want a HUD integrated into VR goggles with a GPS system so it can act as sat nav for people who are walking and cycling, etc. It could also allow you to meet with people who aren't physically there, but merely "there" online. You would see their avatar projected onto the surrounding urban environment, and they (seated at home on their computers) could move around a virtual world directly modeled on the real one. This could also be the future of tele-working.
Anyone wanna give me a million $$ and call me Jesus Startup Almighty? Thought not ;) Ideas are two-a-penny, implementation and marketing are everything.
Anyone wanna give me a million $$ and call me Jesus Startup Almighty? Thought not ;) Ideas are two-a-penny, implementation and marketing are everything.
You mean like this? :)
http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Image:T-800a_Clothing.jpg
http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Image:T-800a_Clothing.jpg
Yes :) I can see there's prior art on this whole thing. Maybe I need to go and reconsider...
Ideas are two-a-penny, implementation and marketing are everything.
Unless you happen to be a patent lawyer in which case you believe the exact opposite.
Unless you happen to be a patent lawyer in which case you believe the exact opposite.
Don't ever worry about your idea being stupid. We all spout out stupid ideas (I do it all the time) and learning how to spot the duds without becoming cynical is a skill you learn with practice.
I am excited to criticize your idea to help you get off the 'one great idea' concept.
There are great ideas, but execution is how you get any leverage on them.
There are great ideas, but execution is how you get any leverage on them.
I say, spit it out. It's nearly impossible to succeed without risking failure.
Silencing the voice in my head that cares about embarrassment was the most useful skill I learned in my 20's. It still takes work, though.
Silencing the voice in my head that cares about embarrassment was the most useful skill I learned in my 20's. It still takes work, though.
You might. But fuck what other people think! Go big!
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Here's what'll happen when you release your idea in this forum:
- If anyone calls you an idiot, they're the idiot.
- You WILL receive much constructive criticism and compliments on your idea. Probably better feedback than you'd get anywhere else.
- Some of us may take the idea and run with it.
- Some of us may discuss yout idea here.
- It mat just die here.
So, what are you waiting for?
- If anyone calls you an idiot, they're the idiot.
- You WILL receive much constructive criticism and compliments on your idea. Probably better feedback than you'd get anywhere else.
- Some of us may take the idea and run with it.
- Some of us may discuss yout idea here.
- It mat just die here.
So, what are you waiting for?
Been lurking for a period of time here. While ideas are being thrown out there, here's a thought.
Allow comments from within feed readers as well as comment tracking (so you don't have to try to remember... or use co.comments, etc).
Could be done one of two ways.
1. Design the 'comment module' for the large blogging platforms (blogger, wordpress, typepad, etc). Bloggers confirm their blog on the platform (to bypass captcha or similar) so a users comment goes directly into the blogs comment system.
2. Create a widget that an author can place on their site that pulls the comments from the server housing the comments. This widget would be placed directly below where "normal" comments go and would tie in as seamlessly as possible.
Could be a standalone service or it could be the next feed reader that takes a chunk out of GoogleReader (unless integration with gReader could be figured out).
Thoughts?
Allow comments from within feed readers as well as comment tracking (so you don't have to try to remember... or use co.comments, etc).
Could be done one of two ways.
1. Design the 'comment module' for the large blogging platforms (blogger, wordpress, typepad, etc). Bloggers confirm their blog on the platform (to bypass captcha or similar) so a users comment goes directly into the blogs comment system.
2. Create a widget that an author can place on their site that pulls the comments from the server housing the comments. This widget would be placed directly below where "normal" comments go and would tie in as seamlessly as possible.
Could be a standalone service or it could be the next feed reader that takes a chunk out of GoogleReader (unless integration with gReader could be figured out).
Thoughts?
It would be great to get all the Y-combinator folks involved in group projects. Like a group section. Ppl apply to each project and the team leader chooses the developers out of the bunch.
Then they can submit their project to the start-up program, and try to take it to the next level together.
Im more of a strategy/design marketing guy with a programming ability, and I know there are hackers out there with complimentary skill sets. Just an idea!
Then they can submit their project to the start-up program, and try to take it to the next level together.
Im more of a strategy/design marketing guy with a programming ability, and I know there are hackers out there with complimentary skill sets. Just an idea!
project group forming is a great idea, maybe that should be the first idea we collaborate on. Virtual incubator of sorts.
Aw man, you spoiled it! I was having a great time watching everyone foam at the mouth in anticipation of this vaporware idea! I was hoping it was a joke and there was no idea (I guess that would be a troll, nevermind).
Respect for giving it away instead of letting it die.
Not many people would do that.
Not many people would do that.
Want a real idea that would be easy to implement and would appeal to the masses? Write a del.icio.us clone and do recipe bookmarking so people like my mom can keep track of all the recipes she sees all over the web and people looking for good recipes could just browse the popular feed.
I should note that if anyone is interested in doing a startup around this, let me know: office at unchartedventures dot com
All of these comments and suggestions make me so much more passionate about the project. I really would like to start development. I love you guys (not in a gay way - not that theres anything wrong with that)
As harsh as it may sound, the ideas are a penny a pound. Unless you have a proven track of generating and implementing viable ideas, your soliciting of the partnership at this stage is completely unappealing.
yeah. I would love to have a couple more programmers to work with, but at this stage, I really dont have a track record to show them. When I get some of my projects off the ground I'll be looking for co-founders with the same passion...
isn't this part of what what open source is for? you have the interest in an idea being completed, but you don't have the resources to tackle it ... or necessarily the expertise ... so you start an open source project, you rally some contributors from groups / companies / schools that might benefit from it (or benefit from contributing it) and off you go ... right?
Just release it already!!! Stop procrastinating :-) It's probably crap anyway :-) The longer the build-up, the harsher the come-down!
Does it have anything to do with the IPhone SDK?
why not share it with a select group of people and find some that may want to partner to make it real? I have been in the same boat, not finding the right people to partner with.
Ideas are free. Execution is what really counts.
Good ideas aren't quite worthless. Yes, ideas (for startups) are generally overvalued, particularly by people who have bad ones. Yes, execution is the most important ingredient in success. But ideas are worth something.
Paul, I really hope Juwo isn't reading your comment. Let's not start THAT again.
who doesn't love a great idea.
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I'm curious?
I really think I have something here. I just want to make sure it gets in the right hands.
I might be off base, but I read this thread as saying: "I have an idea that I think is worth a lot of money, but I don't have the [time|skills] to complete it myself. I want to find as few other people as possible to make the idea a reality so that I can profit while sharing the rewards with only one other person.". If this were really about just getting the idea out there and seeing it thrive, you would just come out and release the idea to the world. Some people who look at it might not do much, and some might give it wings. The only benefit of hiding it (with just one other person) is the expectation of personal gain that may not accrue if many people could start-up the idea on their own. I apologize if this is wrong or sounds overly cynical.
I am not looking for money. i just want to see it be created. So while Im working on other things I can look at that and say...nice, somebody did it, and it didnt just disappear into the void...
I apologize for the misunderstanding --- no offense meant.
And I see above that you did lay out your idea in general. That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I hope someone can make it work as well.
I've seen a similar idea already in development; check out http://www.metaplace.com/
And I see above that you did lay out your idea in general. That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. I hope someone can make it work as well.
I've seen a similar idea already in development; check out http://www.metaplace.com/
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I want to remind everyone that ideas aren't necessarily worth anything by themselves unless you have a team or person to build and implement that idea properly. Most smart VCs won't even listen to your idea if they have to sign a NDA first.
My point exactly. I don't have the necessary capabilities to produce this idea, so instead of watching it die, I am giving it away. Also, I expect to be flamed. People might criticize, but who cares. I would rather see it be persued than never happen.
giving it away would be posting it... sans essay contest
Hackers Help! Post your reason for getting the idea, and I will select the best one tomorrow morning. Thanks a lot. This is a great idea that I would hate to see die.