The Decline of the American Laundromat(theatlantic.com)
theatlantic.com
The Decline of the American Laundromat
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/decline-american-laundromat-gentrification/535257/
202 comments
I live in a house with a washer and dryer.
After we had our first child there was a stretch where my wife and I were both sick for about 2 weeks and the laundry ended up building up significantly. We had probably 10 loads worth to catch up on and it was going to take all of at least one day, maybe two.
Threw it all in the car, went to the laundromat and had it done in 2 hours.
Laundromat's are now how I explain "the cloud" to non-technical people.
After we had our first child there was a stretch where my wife and I were both sick for about 2 weeks and the laundry ended up building up significantly. We had probably 10 loads worth to catch up on and it was going to take all of at least one day, maybe two.
Threw it all in the car, went to the laundromat and had it done in 2 hours.
Laundromat's are now how I explain "the cloud" to non-technical people.
> Laundromat's are now how I explain "the cloud" to non-technical people.
That is quite brilliant analogy. I always used "printing something off at Staples/Fedex" - no need to own a printer, deal with buying reams of paper and ink cartridges if you do not print often, you use the cloud printer of the Fedex locale to get the single spot job done.
That is quite brilliant analogy. I always used "printing something off at Staples/Fedex" - no need to own a printer, deal with buying reams of paper and ink cartridges if you do not print often, you use the cloud printer of the Fedex locale to get the single spot job done.
I use renting an office suite instead of owning your own building.
They provide lots of services to make your life easier, like heating and AC. And they handle the maintenance: if the parking lot needs to be re-striped, they will take care of it. You get to concentrate on just running your business.
It's scalable in the sense that you can rent a bigger suite if you need more space.
Some people are concerned with having all their juicy business secrets on someone else's server, but it's not all that different from your landlord having physical access to your offices with filing cabinets in them.
They provide lots of services to make your life easier, like heating and AC. And they handle the maintenance: if the parking lot needs to be re-striped, they will take care of it. You get to concentrate on just running your business.
It's scalable in the sense that you can rent a bigger suite if you need more space.
Some people are concerned with having all their juicy business secrets on someone else's server, but it's not all that different from your landlord having physical access to your offices with filing cabinets in them.
Does this only make sense for small machines? I bought a gigantic washer/dryer and have no problem working through a large buildup that results from some disruption in life.
Borrowing from your analogy, I have large on-prem servers so I don't need the scalability of the cloud.
Borrowing from your analogy, I have large on-prem servers so I don't need the scalability of the cloud.
Folding the clothes and putting them away is the big issue for me.
Just assuming you have a giant washer/dryer at home and it would handle say, 3 of the loads at one time.
10 loads total.
1. Put 3 loads in washer. Wait for cycle. 7 loads waiting to start.
2. Move 3 loads to dryer. Put 3 new loads in washer. 4 loads waiting to start.
3. Move 3 loads out of dryer and fold, move 3 loads from washer into dryer, put 3 new loads in washer. 1 load waiting to start.
4. Move 3 loads out of dryer and fold, move 3 loads from washer into dryer, put 1 remaining load in washer. 0 loads waiting to start.
5. Move 3 loads out of dryer and fold, move 1 load from washer to dryer.
6. Move 1 load out of dryer and fold.
Total run time, 5 cycles.
10 loads at laundromat
1. Put 10 loads in 10 washers.
2. Move 10 loads from 10 washers to 10 dryers.
3. Move 10 loads out of dryers and fold.
Total run time, 2 cycles.
Compounding variables are overfilled dryers that may result in clothes not getting entirely dry or a very busy laundromat with limited available capacity. At the laundromat, you begin folding while adding time to any load that needs it. At the home dryer, the entire line cycle is blocked for the additional time needed by each blocking dryer.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not advocating for letting laundry build up just so you can go do it at a laundromat. The convenience of having it in your home is well worth it - but if for some reason you do have a huge build up it's a great way to buy back your day / weekend if you want to be able to leave the house.
10 loads total.
1. Put 3 loads in washer. Wait for cycle. 7 loads waiting to start.
2. Move 3 loads to dryer. Put 3 new loads in washer. 4 loads waiting to start.
3. Move 3 loads out of dryer and fold, move 3 loads from washer into dryer, put 3 new loads in washer. 1 load waiting to start.
4. Move 3 loads out of dryer and fold, move 3 loads from washer into dryer, put 1 remaining load in washer. 0 loads waiting to start.
5. Move 3 loads out of dryer and fold, move 1 load from washer to dryer.
6. Move 1 load out of dryer and fold.
Total run time, 5 cycles.
10 loads at laundromat
1. Put 10 loads in 10 washers.
2. Move 10 loads from 10 washers to 10 dryers.
3. Move 10 loads out of dryers and fold.
Total run time, 2 cycles.
Compounding variables are overfilled dryers that may result in clothes not getting entirely dry or a very busy laundromat with limited available capacity. At the laundromat, you begin folding while adding time to any load that needs it. At the home dryer, the entire line cycle is blocked for the additional time needed by each blocking dryer.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not advocating for letting laundry build up just so you can go do it at a laundromat. The convenience of having it in your home is well worth it - but if for some reason you do have a huge build up it's a great way to buy back your day / weekend if you want to be able to leave the house.
You'll bottleneck at the clothes-folding stage, too
But the washing and drying time at home can be used for other things - parallel processing with asynchronous dispatch of mutually exclusive washing and drying jobs.
Laundromat: Time and hassle to bundle everything in the car, take it to the laundromat, babysit it while there (you can't go anywhere else) and bring it back home. Completed sooner, but with more overhead and focused time.
Home laundry: take it a load at a time. Completed later, but you can do anything else (even leave the house) while loads are running. No transportation overhead.
Both models have advantages, and I've done both. Mostly depends on how much hassle it is to trundle everything to the laundromat, and how soon I need the backup cleared.
Laundromat: Time and hassle to bundle everything in the car, take it to the laundromat, babysit it while there (you can't go anywhere else) and bring it back home. Completed sooner, but with more overhead and focused time.
Home laundry: take it a load at a time. Completed later, but you can do anything else (even leave the house) while loads are running. No transportation overhead.
Both models have advantages, and I've done both. Mostly depends on how much hassle it is to trundle everything to the laundromat, and how soon I need the backup cleared.
>10 loads at laundromat
>1. Put 10 loads in 10 washers.
>2. Move 10 loads from 10 washers to 10 dryers.
>3. Move 10 loads out of dryers and fold.
As if. More like:
1. Arrive at the laundromat and realize there are only four washers free.
2. Start three loads because the fourth one doesn't work no matter how many coins you put in.
3. Wait for a dryer when the the three loads finish. Because washers are faster there are already two people waiting for a free dryer. You realize there's no point in hurrying to do the next three loads, since your first three are only making the dryer situation worse.
4. One dryer is finished but nobody is there to unload it. What's the etiquette at this place - should you take a stranger's load out and put it in one of the dingy carts? You wonder how big the owner of those clothes is, and if he's sane.
5. Eventually you get ten loads of clothes through three washers, read an entire three year old issue of Glamour magazine upside-down to make it last, and get all but the last two loads through the dryers before deciding to dry the last two at home by draping them over your furniture.
Total run time, a little over five hours and ten sanity points.
There's probably another cloud analogy in here somewhere.
>1. Put 10 loads in 10 washers.
>2. Move 10 loads from 10 washers to 10 dryers.
>3. Move 10 loads out of dryers and fold.
As if. More like:
1. Arrive at the laundromat and realize there are only four washers free.
2. Start three loads because the fourth one doesn't work no matter how many coins you put in.
3. Wait for a dryer when the the three loads finish. Because washers are faster there are already two people waiting for a free dryer. You realize there's no point in hurrying to do the next three loads, since your first three are only making the dryer situation worse.
4. One dryer is finished but nobody is there to unload it. What's the etiquette at this place - should you take a stranger's load out and put it in one of the dingy carts? You wonder how big the owner of those clothes is, and if he's sane.
5. Eventually you get ten loads of clothes through three washers, read an entire three year old issue of Glamour magazine upside-down to make it last, and get all but the last two loads through the dryers before deciding to dry the last two at home by draping them over your furniture.
Total run time, a little over five hours and ten sanity points.
There's probably another cloud analogy in here somewhere.
> Laundromat's are now how I explain "the cloud" to non-technical people.
A guy I know who used to manage cloud development at RedHat mentioned to me that one of his developers quit, bought a laundromat which eventually became several laundromats, and now makes more money running his laundromats than he ever did developing cloud software at RedHat.
I believe the laundromats are in Raleigh, NC and he does his own maintenance. Those factors may help quite a bit compared to the businesses described in the article.
A guy I know who used to manage cloud development at RedHat mentioned to me that one of his developers quit, bought a laundromat which eventually became several laundromats, and now makes more money running his laundromats than he ever did developing cloud software at RedHat.
I believe the laundromats are in Raleigh, NC and he does his own maintenance. Those factors may help quite a bit compared to the businesses described in the article.
[deleted]
Ditto. Lazy me does a months worth in 75 minutes.
As long as you wash the clothes faster than you use them, what is the problem with letting they pile up for a long time while you wash them in a more normal rate (like once a day, or once a week)?
For me, much like CPUs context switch my brain does as well when I have a backlog of stuff to do.
I too would prefer to just go spend 2 hours to Get It Done(tm) and cross it off the mental checklist. Plus in this particular instance it's a snowball effect for me on productivity - as I see progress and my house gets cleaner I feel mentally better and am able to more easily focus.
Humans are strange.
I too would prefer to just go spend 2 hours to Get It Done(tm) and cross it off the mental checklist. Plus in this particular instance it's a snowball effect for me on productivity - as I see progress and my house gets cleaner I feel mentally better and am able to more easily focus.
Humans are strange.
Clothes aren't all interchangeable. You'd have to predict in advance which clothes you're going to need next week, which isn't always easy.
Either that or it's trivially easy. The clothes you're going to wear next could just be the ones on the top of the drawer (or indeed the laundry basket).
They are not perfectly interchangeable, but most people have a few that could be used on each occasion.
If I ever have a big house and money to waste,I'm going to get two washers and two dryers.
It still won't compare to the laundromat, but chewing through a backlog 100% faster would make a big difference.
It still won't compare to the laundromat, but chewing through a backlog 100% faster would make a big difference.
> Laundromat's are now how I explain "the cloud" to non-technical people.
I will steal that explanation. Thanks !
I will steal that explanation. Thanks !
I concur with the other commenter, "the cloud" is a laundromat is one of the most apt metaphors I have heard in a long time.
Heeeyyyyy I hope "Laundromat's" aren't how you explain plural nouns to non-technical people.
:P :)
:P :)
facepalm
Heh. Home laundry was how I used to describe processor pipelines.
"So you put the load from the washer into the dryer, but if you have a second load you don't wait for the first load to finish drying before you put the second load in the washer, do you?"
Probably doesn't work as well in countries where people mostly buy the all-in-one units.
"So you put the load from the washer into the dryer, but if you have a second load you don't wait for the first load to finish drying before you put the second load in the washer, do you?"
Probably doesn't work as well in countries where people mostly buy the all-in-one units.
I live in Japan where Laundromats are often attached to Public Baths. I love going to my local, taking a soak while the load runs, and then coming out and having a coffee while my clothes go through the drier.
Not much to add.. just felt like professing my love for that Sunday arvo ritual.
Not much to add.. just felt like professing my love for that Sunday arvo ritual.
That sounds quite nice. I wonder why public baths never really took off in the States. In the records I can find, they seem to have a less than savoury perception.
Have you ever seen a naked average American?
I don't mean to offend but I suspect it's because people in the USA, at least in cities, just can't take care of public places.
There's urine in the train stations (either visible or smellable), elevators shut down by faeces, people shouting, yelling and preaching in the streets, also, toilets, often even in private restaurants, are disgusting.
I don't mean to say that things are always like this, all the time or in all cities and I understand that it's a minority of people who cause these problems but the problems are far from uncommon.
With a place like a public bath in particular, cleanliness is extremely important and I just can't see it working. It only takes one inconsiderate person relieving them self in the water to ruin it for everyone and I find it hard to believe that in a day in an average US city you wouldn't find such a person. My impression is that it works in Japan because the society is extremely communal and you're far, far less likely to find such an inconsiderate person.
I can kind of see it working in smaller US communities where people know and respect each other though. In small communities, everyone knows each other and people are much less likely to be inconsiderate towards friends and acquaintances than they are towards strangers.
There's urine in the train stations (either visible or smellable), elevators shut down by faeces, people shouting, yelling and preaching in the streets, also, toilets, often even in private restaurants, are disgusting.
I don't mean to say that things are always like this, all the time or in all cities and I understand that it's a minority of people who cause these problems but the problems are far from uncommon.
With a place like a public bath in particular, cleanliness is extremely important and I just can't see it working. It only takes one inconsiderate person relieving them self in the water to ruin it for everyone and I find it hard to believe that in a day in an average US city you wouldn't find such a person. My impression is that it works in Japan because the society is extremely communal and you're far, far less likely to find such an inconsiderate person.
I can kind of see it working in smaller US communities where people know and respect each other though. In small communities, everyone knows each other and people are much less likely to be inconsiderate towards friends and acquaintances than they are towards strangers.
Agreed but this isn't just a USA thing. Many countries have a culture not taking care of public places. All of Europe comes to mind. As does China.
Europe is a broad stroke.
UK, sure, Sweden.. not so much.
UK, sure, Sweden.. not so much.
Sweden and the UK seem roughly the same to me. The main streets of large cities are perhaps a bit dirtier in England, but the parks in Sweden are far worse when people leave all their trash for the bottle collector (not just the bottles).
As a person who grew up in Britain and now live in Sweden in cities with a comparable population size, I disagree.
London is an exception when it comes to the UK, there is a lot more investment in public services and it's not a true representation of Britain due to its multicultural component.
London is an exception when it comes to the UK, there is a lot more investment in public services and it's not a true representation of Britain due to its multicultural component.
Sure, London has a level of investment in public services which is unrepresentative of Britain as a whole (though they also pay most of the taxes that fund public services.) But all big cities (and many small ones) are multicultural.
that's a stupid point to make.
London is more multicultural than the rest of Britain.
even if you count the duo-culture the rest of britain has (Pakistani is usually what people refer to when defining "multi-cultural" in the greater context of the UK) then London is still absolutely outclassing everything else by an amazingly wide margin in terms of multi-culturalism.
You could argue the Polish influx has created a tri-culture, but really, I lived in London and my neighbors were Russian, Estonian, Finnish, Canadian, South African, Eritrean, Saudi, Indian, Danish, Italian, Brazillian and there was even a girl from Zimbabwe. Nothing like where I came from.. That's a true multi-culture.
Regardless, as a person having lived in 2 comparable places in different countries I see a huge difference in the way public spaces are treated (to the benefit of Sweden). I don't doubt that the parent has similar experiences as I wasn't saying it's uncommon. But I have this opinion having actual experience. If you do not have similar experience you are not an authority to tell me how things are.
I'm not sure what point you were even trying to make, that Britain has more than just British culture therefore my argument has no ground? :S
London is more multicultural than the rest of Britain.
even if you count the duo-culture the rest of britain has (Pakistani is usually what people refer to when defining "multi-cultural" in the greater context of the UK) then London is still absolutely outclassing everything else by an amazingly wide margin in terms of multi-culturalism.
You could argue the Polish influx has created a tri-culture, but really, I lived in London and my neighbors were Russian, Estonian, Finnish, Canadian, South African, Eritrean, Saudi, Indian, Danish, Italian, Brazillian and there was even a girl from Zimbabwe. Nothing like where I came from.. That's a true multi-culture.
Regardless, as a person having lived in 2 comparable places in different countries I see a huge difference in the way public spaces are treated (to the benefit of Sweden). I don't doubt that the parent has similar experiences as I wasn't saying it's uncommon. But I have this opinion having actual experience. If you do not have similar experience you are not an authority to tell me how things are.
I'm not sure what point you were even trying to make, that Britain has more than just British culture therefore my argument has no ground? :S
Plenty of public pools in the UK that are in pretty good condition.
Not certain how you can describe all of Europe that way. In my experience, European countries have very good upkeep of public spaces even by higher developed world standards, and especially compared to the US.
As a Dutch chauvinist, I beg to differ. We generally take excellent care of public places. This is a combo of culture and government services actually cleaning stuff up every once in a while. Of course, this is HN, so cue some replies about horrible stinky places in the Netherlands, but as a general rule I stand by this. SF is a pile of poo compared to an average Dutch city.
And then I haven't even mentioned Luxembourg. That entire country is so clean and tidy that it almost looks like a cartoon.
And then I haven't even mentioned Luxembourg. That entire country is so clean and tidy that it almost looks like a cartoon.
SF is a pile of poo compared to an average Dutch city.
Ah right, thanks. I didn't know that :)
It's not true, though. SF is pretty much average in this regard.
Americans in general just don't seem to care about public spaces, pretty much anywhere in the country. I've travelled to many US cities and the only reason other cities some how feel "cleaner" is because there's literally nobody walking in them.
The cities made for walking (like NYC and maybe Boston) are on par with SF. Maybe less dog poo everywhere though.
Americans in general just don't seem to care about public spaces, pretty much anywhere in the country. I've travelled to many US cities and the only reason other cities some how feel "cleaner" is because there's literally nobody walking in them.
The cities made for walking (like NYC and maybe Boston) are on par with SF. Maybe less dog poo everywhere though.
This reminds me of my earlier experiences walking around LA. My natural instinct looking at the state of disarray in some of the streets was that I was on the wrong side of town, because where I come from (Granada, Spain) that's what you notice when you venture into the slummy areas. In LA, however, you need to readjust your gauge, as this was a fairly safe area, just not well taken care of.
SF has an extreme homelessness problem, smells like urine in upscale pedestrian magnet areas (not just back-alleys) and the residential buildings are poorly maintained to the point it being visually distracting because the land underneath them is so much more valuable than the edifices themselves.
NYC is better, but still fairly grungy. Boston is substantially better along these metrics. Montreal and Quebec city, two of the oldest and, by dint of age, pedestrian-friendly cities on the continent, are leagues ahead of SF as well in this respect.
SF is great. Love the vibe. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking it is clean.
NYC is better, but still fairly grungy. Boston is substantially better along these metrics. Montreal and Quebec city, two of the oldest and, by dint of age, pedestrian-friendly cities on the continent, are leagues ahead of SF as well in this respect.
SF is great. Love the vibe. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking it is clean.
To be fair, none of those other cities is a year-round magnet for homeless to move to from other areas.
Or all of Switzerland. In Germany, it depends - Berlin is, well, Berlin. But Munich is immaculate.
>We generally take excellent care of public places. This is a combo of culture and government services actually cleaning stuff up every once in a while.
Ok, I've gotta take issue with this.
Dutch people litter. All the time. People rarely seem to clean up after their dogs. People place their trash bags out on the curb (where there aren't underground bins) far earlier than they should, resulting in trash-strewn streets and fat, obnoxious seagulls. It's a mess. Beer cans left on bridges and park benches. Energy drink cans tossed to the side. Cigarette butts strewn carelessly. Firework refuse absolutely fucking everywhere a few weeks either side of New Years. Bikes left as litter.
There's always someone who comes along with a street vacuum, or a team of people going along with bags and pickers. It seems to me that people have little respect for not littering because it's always someone else's problem, and there's always going to be someone cleaning up after you.
So if by "we" take care of public spaces you mean "lots of people get paid to clean up others' carelessness," sure, but in six years I've seen little to suggest that not leaving trash just anywhere is strong tenent of Dutch culture.
My hunch is that urban areas of the NL are essentially all developed and man-made, in that every street, sidewalk, tree, bush, patch of grass is planned and raw, untouched nature is relatively less accessible and visible. Therefore people perceive this urban "fabrication" with its attendant cleaning staff as less precious, less worth keeping clean than some primeval forest or national park.
I could be wrong, of course, and this is all just my own perception. But I really fail to recognize the cultural cleanliness that you say embodies the Dutch.
Ok, I've gotta take issue with this.
Dutch people litter. All the time. People rarely seem to clean up after their dogs. People place their trash bags out on the curb (where there aren't underground bins) far earlier than they should, resulting in trash-strewn streets and fat, obnoxious seagulls. It's a mess. Beer cans left on bridges and park benches. Energy drink cans tossed to the side. Cigarette butts strewn carelessly. Firework refuse absolutely fucking everywhere a few weeks either side of New Years. Bikes left as litter.
There's always someone who comes along with a street vacuum, or a team of people going along with bags and pickers. It seems to me that people have little respect for not littering because it's always someone else's problem, and there's always going to be someone cleaning up after you.
So if by "we" take care of public spaces you mean "lots of people get paid to clean up others' carelessness," sure, but in six years I've seen little to suggest that not leaving trash just anywhere is strong tenent of Dutch culture.
My hunch is that urban areas of the NL are essentially all developed and man-made, in that every street, sidewalk, tree, bush, patch of grass is planned and raw, untouched nature is relatively less accessible and visible. Therefore people perceive this urban "fabrication" with its attendant cleaning staff as less precious, less worth keeping clean than some primeval forest or national park.
I could be wrong, of course, and this is all just my own perception. But I really fail to recognize the cultural cleanliness that you say embodies the Dutch.
Last time I was in Amsterdam the people who clean up the metro stations were on strike. I didn't know this and I was thinking, "Wow! I really expected things to be cleaner than this." It was quite a mess the whole week I was there. That said, away from the stations things seemed very well kept.
In my experience SF is the worst smelling city in the U.S. Compare it to Europe's worst smelling places, not the best ones.
There are other places yes but out of the countries I've visited, the US is definitely one of the worst. All the Europe I've visited (Paris, Berlin, Zurich, Istanbul, south-eastern region of Russia) has been about as well kept as Australia, my home country. Aside from Malaysia, I can't think of a country that's worse than the US. Even the (disclaimer: nicer, less impoverished) parts of Mexico I've visited were arguably better maintained.
Another disclaimer: I live in the Bay Area and that's where most (but not all) of my feelings about US public spaces come from.
Another disclaimer: I live in the Bay Area and that's where most (but not all) of my feelings about US public spaces come from.
It might be the large US population of homeless people worsens this (especially in the bay area), as they have no better option than to leave their waste in public places.
That's still the US's problem to fix though. Other countries provide public toilets.
With a quick search, I can only find maps for the London Underground and Britain generally:
[1] http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
[2] https://greatbritishpublictoiletmap.rca.ac.uk/ (many semi-public also listed)
With a quick search, I can only find maps for the London Underground and Britain generally:
[1] http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf
[2] https://greatbritishpublictoiletmap.rca.ac.uk/ (many semi-public also listed)
At least according to Wikipedia, many European countries have a higher homeless rate than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_...
The US is a big place, which averages away the extremes. In San Francisco, population 868k, there are about 10-12k homeless folks (http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/San-Francisco-homeless...), which puts it at over 1% homelessness. That's a tragic number for such a wealthy city.
It's only a tragic reflection on the city if you assume all the homeless are born and raised there. How many of those migrated there from colder climates? How many were given a bus ticket by their home city and sent there?
SF spends an absolute fortune on homeless people. That, coupled with its temperate climate, makes it a magnet for many types of homeless people.
SF spends an absolute fortune on homeless people. That, coupled with its temperate climate, makes it a magnet for many types of homeless people.
Correct, but I have never seen such concentration of homeless people anywhere in Spain, where climate varies significantly as well, and economic conditions are historically harsher. But there's a safety net that prevents most people from falling all the way down.
Years ago I travelled through norcal without stopping in to SF. Started in Crescent City, traversed into Oregon, past Shasta region and the farthest south I achieved was to Santa Rosa. Headed east to Oroville and then back to Crescent City to catch my prop flight to SF for the flight east.
Wonderful personal trip on the winding mountain roads and experiencing the abrupt climate|vista changes in an hour+ from pacific coast to desert. Morning 50 degrees, afternoon 80+.
It was my first time in norcal and the thing that shocked me the most (reading my emails to friends from that time) was the filth, poverty and mental illness in the towns and cities.
Wonderful personal trip on the winding mountain roads and experiencing the abrupt climate|vista changes in an hour+ from pacific coast to desert. Morning 50 degrees, afternoon 80+.
It was my first time in norcal and the thing that shocked me the most (reading my emails to friends from that time) was the filth, poverty and mental illness in the towns and cities.
That's not really California. That's Hela Nor-cal, or the Jefferson State.
Explain please, I'm an easterner.
(edit) I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_st...
The Bay Area is bad even by American standards. But the places I've been in America do tend to be rather shabby in comparison to places I've visited abroad, in general.
> Berlin
Lol what? In Berlin you see heaps of trash, broken furniture and fridges on the sidewalks once you leave the main roads. The city stinks in the summer (guess this is due to not enough water in the sewage). In Neukölln (and other parts of the city) you gotta take care of druggies everywhere. Parts of the city have a severe neonazi problem (left-wing and "foreign looking" people are getting beaten up, and their cars torched). Rents are skyrocketing and the government doesn't care much except to fight those who protest against gentrification.
I don't get the Berlin hype. Really not.
Lol what? In Berlin you see heaps of trash, broken furniture and fridges on the sidewalks once you leave the main roads. The city stinks in the summer (guess this is due to not enough water in the sewage). In Neukölln (and other parts of the city) you gotta take care of druggies everywhere. Parts of the city have a severe neonazi problem (left-wing and "foreign looking" people are getting beaten up, and their cars torched). Rents are skyrocketing and the government doesn't care much except to fight those who protest against gentrification.
I don't get the Berlin hype. Really not.
I lived in Kruezburg and agree with you. As the Peter Fox song says, Kotze am Kotti.
In terms of litter, the Dominican Republic is far worse than the USA. Major DR roads are lined with unbroken mounds of trash.
IMHO, Paris is fairly dirty (like 60% San Francisco dirty). Especially the subway is a mess, and there is no law enforcement (e.g. minor children begging during weekday and no-one does anything). Many of the trains are vandalized.
St. Petersburg is much nicer than Paris (at least in the summer). Surprisingly, the it is cleaner even though the country is poorer.
St. Petersburg is much nicer than Paris (at least in the summer). Surprisingly, the it is cleaner even though the country is poorer.
I'm not sure about littering/pissing/etc, but as an American, I'm constantly surprised by the amount of graffiti when I go to Europe. It far outstrips what I see here.
As a Californian, of course, they have far fewer homeless people there :)
As a Californian, of course, they have far fewer homeless people there :)
It is also partly because we are less inclined to lock up, beat or detain people who violate social norms in western countries anymore.
Neither do we socially support those properly, turns out running mental health and substance abuse support is difficult, politically charged, full of potential for liability, thankless and expensive.
I have older relatives who were involved in the mental health system in the 50's and 60's, it was, to put it mildly, not a particularly humane time but "it sure got crazies off the streets".
On a related note, in .jp the police can detain you for about a month without charging you.
Neither do we socially support those properly, turns out running mental health and substance abuse support is difficult, politically charged, full of potential for liability, thankless and expensive.
I have older relatives who were involved in the mental health system in the 50's and 60's, it was, to put it mildly, not a particularly humane time but "it sure got crazies off the streets".
On a related note, in .jp the police can detain you for about a month without charging you.
Japan has a backwards view of mental health, and one of the highest suicide rates in the world.
Yet public places are immaculately clean.
The fact is that western people and law enforcement tolerate vandalism, littering and antisocial behaviour.
Recently, on Seattle's airport train, I saw a person openly taking garbage out of their bag and throwing it on the floor. No one said anything - just another day on the dirty train.
I don't think someone would dare do that in Japan or Singapore.
Yet public places are immaculately clean.
The fact is that western people and law enforcement tolerate vandalism, littering and antisocial behaviour.
Recently, on Seattle's airport train, I saw a person openly taking garbage out of their bag and throwing it on the floor. No one said anything - just another day on the dirty train.
I don't think someone would dare do that in Japan or Singapore.
US has had a good grasp on mental health and it's not stigmatized as much as it is in Japan.
But guess what, US has highest death rate from illegal/dangerous drugs, which to me is almost like suicide.
But guess what, US has highest death rate from illegal/dangerous drugs, which to me is almost like suicide.
A "public bath" isn't the same as a "public place", which has a wide range of meanings. Think of it as "open to the public", similar to how a pub="public house" even though it's privately owned and people can be kicked out.
A public bath has an entrance fee and staff, including cleaning staff.
While a train station doesn't have an entrance fee, even to access the elevator.
The streets are even more "public", in that speech like preaching has very few restraints. But a public bath has no obligation to allow yelling and preaching.
One of the ways people do public baths in the US is to join a gym. Another option is to go to a spa. Those two provide most of the market need for a public bath.
Other cultures also integrate a social experience in the public bath, but that is coupled to historical reasons not related to your objection.
A public bath has an entrance fee and staff, including cleaning staff.
While a train station doesn't have an entrance fee, even to access the elevator.
The streets are even more "public", in that speech like preaching has very few restraints. But a public bath has no obligation to allow yelling and preaching.
One of the ways people do public baths in the US is to join a gym. Another option is to go to a spa. Those two provide most of the market need for a public bath.
Other cultures also integrate a social experience in the public bath, but that is coupled to historical reasons not related to your objection.
This U.S. resident agrees with you. It's a definite downside to our individualist priorities and inability of law enforcement to do much about public nuisances.
There is also a huge emphasis on being a "taxpayer."
"I paid taxes this year, therefor I am entitled to do whatever I want with public property."
It's one of the reasons something like the autobahn can't work in the US. Some Americans just love to drive 20 mph under the speed limit in the left lane because "I'm a taxpayer and this is my road! I can do what I want." A no-speed-limit highway in the US would require one lane per citizen.
"I paid taxes this year, therefor I am entitled to do whatever I want with public property."
It's one of the reasons something like the autobahn can't work in the US. Some Americans just love to drive 20 mph under the speed limit in the left lane because "I'm a taxpayer and this is my road! I can do what I want." A no-speed-limit highway in the US would require one lane per citizen.
Honestly, I've never seen this kind of belligerence. I mean, I understand that the feeling exists that since one paid taxes, one is more entitled to public services than those who don't (and vice versa). But Americans in general seem to be very law-abiding citizens (there are exceptions, as is everywhere).
Recently, I've seen signs attaching fines to driving in the left lane below the speed limit or not allowing a car to pass. There are still drivers that stay below but I think with the new signs they are becoming a smaller subset. This was in South Florida btw.
>A no-speed-limit highway in the US would require one lane per citizen.
No, it would just require speeding tickets to be less lucrative than impeding traffic tickets.
No, it would just require speeding tickets to be less lucrative than impeding traffic tickets.
Of all things to spend tax dollars on, public baths seems pretty far down the priority list.
It's not only in cities. In the USA, public facilities outside of exclusive areas are usually associated with those considered poor and personal failures.
Combined with the resentment that most people have towards subsidizing public facilities and services used by/built for those who need them (even though in the USA, it's a fraction of what's used towards foreign interventions), there's little if any incentive in maintaining, let alone building more public/publicly used places, especially ones that will end up being used exclusively by the people they want nothing do with (who often internalize this open resentment and further contribute to the problem of poor quality public facilities).
Combined with the resentment that most people have towards subsidizing public facilities and services used by/built for those who need them (even though in the USA, it's a fraction of what's used towards foreign interventions), there's little if any incentive in maintaining, let alone building more public/publicly used places, especially ones that will end up being used exclusively by the people they want nothing do with (who often internalize this open resentment and further contribute to the problem of poor quality public facilities).
Do you have any data that would suggest that funding limitations are the problem? Because when it comes to other sorts of public services (schools, transit) we spend more than other countries. To get worse results. I ran the numbers the other day, and for example the NYC MTA spends about twice as much per ride as the London Tube.
I highly doubt the causation goes in this direction. I think it's just a matter of culture. People in the US litter way more than people do in Japan, for example. I agree with the other poster that it's really just a small minority, maybe even less than 1%, of Americans that just ruin public facilities for everyone. But this minority does exist.
You could argue that we are just using coded language for homeless people, which often is more of a combination of mental illness or substance abuse problems and abject poverty. But I think there are plenty of people that ruin public services aside from the homeless. Even as a lifeguard of private pools, I've had to deal with large amounts of litter, abandoned trash, and feces/urine on regular bases.
You could argue that we are just using coded language for homeless people, which often is more of a combination of mental illness or substance abuse problems and abject poverty. But I think there are plenty of people that ruin public services aside from the homeless. Even as a lifeguard of private pools, I've had to deal with large amounts of litter, abandoned trash, and feces/urine on regular bases.
Certainly while there are cultural aspects at play, it's impossible to ignore the reality of certain areas in America being cleaner and less littered, and better serviced than other areas, and a large part of that has to do with the money available for people who inhabit and regularly use those spaces/facilities, and the ability to keep away certain demographics in order for the money to continue to be available.
there are just a lot of people who things the world owes them something and they have no respect for their surroundings / community.
I was waiting for the subway, and this guy leaning against a trash can throws his trash on the ground. If I didnt see things like this nearly every day I would write it off as a one time occurrence.
I was waiting for the subway, and this guy leaning against a trash can throws his trash on the ground. If I didnt see things like this nearly every day I would write it off as a one time occurrence.
Public baths in Japan also typically ban guests with tattoos, because tattoos are associated with the Yakuza in Japanese culture, and the presence of Yakuza would make other guests uncomfortable. Imagine doing anything even remotely similar in the US.
OTOH, the US does have public pools. I've never been to one, though, so I have no idea what they are like. If anyone has experiences, please share.
OTOH, the US does have public pools. I've never been to one, though, so I have no idea what they are like. If anyone has experiences, please share.
Public pools are generally fine. They usually have a small fee to use, so they aren't truly public in the same sense as the local playground. In my area, most pools are county or town operated, with a discount rate for residents and a higher rate for non-residents. Usually, $5-$10/visit for non-residents, which also buys access to the locker room/showers and any gym equipment.
I imagine the public baths in Japan are similar. So, there is an entry fee that funds a small staff to keep the bathhouse in good repair.
Edit - as an aside, I visited Iceland in January. The public baths/pools were amazing. The entry fees were minimal (a few euro, a bit less than entry to a pool in the US). Facilities were all clean and well maintained. But, it's also part of their culture. Like bath-houses in some nations, people go to the pools to hang out and socialize in the evening.
I imagine the public baths in Japan are similar. So, there is an entry fee that funds a small staff to keep the bathhouse in good repair.
Edit - as an aside, I visited Iceland in January. The public baths/pools were amazing. The entry fees were minimal (a few euro, a bit less than entry to a pool in the US). Facilities were all clean and well maintained. But, it's also part of their culture. Like bath-houses in some nations, people go to the pools to hang out and socialize in the evening.
Japan has public pools (run by wards) and they are lovely. The only minor complaint is that sometimes they are overrun with old people ;)
There are many public pools in Austin (some charge a small access fee) and they are wildly popular. e.g. Barton Springs Pool, Hamilton Pool etc.
> There's urine in the train stations (either visible or smellable), elevators shut down by faeces, people shouting, yelling and preaching in the streets, also, toilets, often even in private restaurants, are disgusting.
This is a very SF-centric view of the US.
The closest I've come to this in Boston is seeing people sleeping on subway benches.
>I can kind of see it working in smaller US communities Communities that small do not need laundromats. Cities and suburbs have done a very good job making themselves so impersonal that you don't really get that level of community except in actual "small" towns.
This is a very SF-centric view of the US.
The closest I've come to this in Boston is seeing people sleeping on subway benches.
>I can kind of see it working in smaller US communities Communities that small do not need laundromats. Cities and suburbs have done a very good job making themselves so impersonal that you don't really get that level of community except in actual "small" towns.
>This is a very SF-centric view of the US.
Not really. Every major American (and in my experience, Canadian, though it is slightly better up there) city has this to varying degrees.
Not really. Every major American (and in my experience, Canadian, though it is slightly better up there) city has this to varying degrees.
I thought it described NYC quite accurately.
Take a tour of the subway and you'll agree.
Urine, feces, and homeless people, oftentimes who are mentally disturbed, are part of my commute.
Take a tour of the subway and you'll agree.
Urine, feces, and homeless people, oftentimes who are mentally disturbed, are part of my commute.
"Americans are more likely to pee in the pool than Japanese"... I would love to see that study! I have my own racist hypothesis about the outcome, but yours seems quite rational to me too.
I'm sure racism also plays into this a lot. So public baths are very common in Korea as well, which is a pretty homogeneous country (similar to Japan).
Like you mention, Urban areas in most of the US tend to be overrun by poor and downtrodden and are generally unsanitary. But my personal experience, of having seen gentrification here in Austin, Texas, has been that Urban areas in America are maintained well when those areas are out of the reach of said poor and downtrodden. e.g. in Austin, the downtown region is infested with homeless people and panhandlers, whereas the new development in north austin (called the Domain) is much much cleaner. So I don't think Americans in general are prone to littering or keeping urban areas dirty.
Like you mention, Urban areas in most of the US tend to be overrun by poor and downtrodden and are generally unsanitary. But my personal experience, of having seen gentrification here in Austin, Texas, has been that Urban areas in America are maintained well when those areas are out of the reach of said poor and downtrodden. e.g. in Austin, the downtown region is infested with homeless people and panhandlers, whereas the new development in north austin (called the Domain) is much much cleaner. So I don't think Americans in general are prone to littering or keeping urban areas dirty.
> There's urine in the train stations (either visible or smellable), elevators shut down by faeces, people shouting, yelling and preaching in the streets
I'm not reacting to any offense, as I agree the US has these problems. However this also describes very well my time spent in metropolitan Spain, France, and Italy.
I'm not reacting to any offense, as I agree the US has these problems. However this also describes very well my time spent in metropolitan Spain, France, and Italy.
maybe there's a common thread here...
Certainly hot tubs in San Francisco were mostly closed due to aids or so I am told
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-08/news/mn-2810_1_gay-ba...
Sentos (public baths in Japan) certainly don't have any kind of rep like that AFAIK
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-08/news/mn-2810_1_gay-ba...
Sentos (public baths in Japan) certainly don't have any kind of rep like that AFAIK
My completely baseless view is that it's entwined with the relative views towards nudity in both cultures. If I had to guess, the age of Europe has forced cultural views of nudity to shape themselves around the presence of necessary public baths in history. In contrast, the relative youth of the US has meant that said cultrual establishment never caught on because private bathing was possible from the get-go of Anglo-US settlement.
I suspect it's a cultural thing. Japanese people are totally okay with group bathing while to Americans bathing is a more private matter. Leaving aside public baths for a moment, Japanese people often bathe together as a family -- something you rarely see here.
Probably Puritanism, a lack of scarcity, a relatively short time between large settlements and indoor plumbing (for most of the country).
I wish there were more public baths. There's one around the block from me in Cambridge. It's a wonderful place in the middle of winter.
I wish there were more public baths. There's one around the block from me in Cambridge. It's a wonderful place in the middle of winter.
It's not that they never took off (there used to be many, esp in urban places with lots of European immigrants), its that they run counter to the hyper-individualistic American mindset. And over time, communal features of American civic life have become objects of neglect if not derision (public education, public transport, etc)
We have "public baths". They are usually called "YMCA's" and they charge a fee. There are saunas and steam rooms and chlorinated swimming pools at most YMCA facilities.
These responses are peak HN, it's hilarious and disappointing. The actual answer to your question is that tons of cities had beautiful public baths (I live next to a locked one), and shut them down when they became ground zero for AIDS transmission. Men were having risky sex in the locker rooms, and the closing of the public baths is seen as the turning point for the US taking the AIDS crisis seriously. The below address mostly private baths, but the rules ended both.
http://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Sex_Panic_Closes_Bath...
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/26/nyregion/state-permits-clo...
http://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Sex_Panic_Closes_Bath...
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/26/nyregion/state-permits-clo...
I think the answer is much simpler. In the US almost every home has a bathing/showering facility built in. There's not much need for a bathhouse. Because they weren't used by regular people very much, people got this idea that the only reason you would go to one is for some other reason.
In reality the total number of incidents of unsavory rendezvous in the bathhouses were probably not much higher than in countries with more extensive public bath house culture, but the percentage of patrons who went there for other reasons was considerably higher.
Basically without the normal activity masking it, the unsavory activity stood out.
In reality the total number of incidents of unsavory rendezvous in the bathhouses were probably not much higher than in countries with more extensive public bath house culture, but the percentage of patrons who went there for other reasons was considerably higher.
Basically without the normal activity masking it, the unsavory activity stood out.
The USA passed the 50% indoor plumbing threshhold between the 1920 and 1930 census, so earlier people must have done something. I believe the question is no longer on the census long form as indoor plumbing is well over 90%.
I personally do 80% of bathing at the gym after exercise.
I personally do 80% of bathing at the gym after exercise.
I suspect it's mostly just the underlying culture. Japan was more into baths/bathing in pre-industrial times than most of the world, and there is hot springs tourism.
Not the same thing at all, but my local laundromat is also a restaurant/bar, and hosts really terrible standup.
I'll frequently grab a bite while doing my laundry, and the "comedy" is a useful inspiration to get it done earlier in the day, so I don't have to listen to it. (It is really, truly awful.)
I'll frequently grab a bite while doing my laundry, and the "comedy" is a useful inspiration to get it done earlier in the day, so I don't have to listen to it. (It is really, truly awful.)
I saw my first laundromat/bar in college.
Thought it was the best idea I've ever seen implemented.
Thought it was the best idea I've ever seen implemented.
I love the laundromat/bar concept. I was recently in Brooklyn for work and visited the Sunshine Laundromat. Do laundry, then open up the "secret" dryer door to the bar and pinball arcade!
I'm happy to say good riddance. When I was young I had to carry the family's laundry to the laundrymat, wash and fold it there, and carry it back, every other week at least. It takes hours, and at the time you couldn't do much while sitting there and waiting (nowadays I suppose you have smartphones and laptops). The whole thing was just an exhausting, dreaded hassle.
Now I can put laundry in, it's OK if I don't attend to it immediately, and finally I can hang-dry my laundry at home, which is not just hugely more climate-friendly but also helps prevent shrinkage. An undeniable win all around.
If you need a quiet few hours, a walk is just as fulfilling and much less obligatory :)
Now I can put laundry in, it's OK if I don't attend to it immediately, and finally I can hang-dry my laundry at home, which is not just hugely more climate-friendly but also helps prevent shrinkage. An undeniable win all around.
If you need a quiet few hours, a walk is just as fulfilling and much less obligatory :)
I think this article is less about the benefits of laundromats vs. in-unit washing machines (most people would choose the latter), and more about the struggles of people who are unable to afford apartments with in-unit hookups and who now have to walk an extra couple of blocks to do their laundry.
Interesting. For a generally rich country the economics seems odd. In contrast, my grandmother was definitely not a wealthy person and she could still put aside the money for the washing machine in the height of the communism. There were no laundromats anywhere.
I do wonder where are the differences coming from.
I do wonder where are the differences coming from.
I guess government is sometimes better able to provide basic services (a place to connect your washing machine) than private landlords. A failure of the market.
These 'machines' were not connected to anything. On your laundry day (yeah, you will spend a whole day doing laundry, and not just loading and unloading a machine), you will pull it in your bathroom. Then connect one hose to the faucet, run another into the bathtub. They were absolute crap. Laundromat is a big step up compared to that.
In fact, building the network of government owned laundromats would be better fit for centrally planned economy of the USSR. My guess the only reason it never happened is the inability to build a reliable heavy duty automatic washing machine.
In fact, building the network of government owned laundromats would be better fit for centrally planned economy of the USSR. My guess the only reason it never happened is the inability to build a reliable heavy duty automatic washing machine.
There are things that benefit from the economy of scale (e.g. factories) and then there are those that don't. Laundry is clearly in the second league: all the machines are independent of each other so the whole thing can (and usually is, nowadays) split apart (everyone has a washing machine at their place).
This statement is, again, surprising to me: to connect a washing machine all you really need is water, sink and electricity. I can't imagine a kitchen without these things and indeed, a washing machine was often put in kitchens. The other popular choice was bathroom (my grandmother didn't have one, so they have to use kitchen).
I get it that additional, large appliance may be somewhat unwieldy, but I don't think more than having to haul your clothes to get them washed.
I get it that additional, large appliance may be somewhat unwieldy, but I don't think more than having to haul your clothes to get them washed.
[deleted]
Laundromats are expensive, though. I used one for a while and spent nearly ten bucksa week, even though I brought clothes home to air dry. After buying a used haier hlp21n it paid for itself inabout 3 months.
Unless it's gone up, the cost of fluff and fold service in the mission is cheap enough that it's not much more than doing it yourself. Especially when many laundromats where is > $2 for a wash load and similar for a dry load. If you have to separate your loads it can easily be $12 to do your laundry yourself. You can probably get it done for $15 and have several hours of your life to do something else.
It's really weird, because this is literally lower quality of life than USSR circa late 70s. Sure, we had really crappy and tiny in-unit washing machines (http://pics.rbc.ru/img/cnews/2007/09/04/41a.jpg) - but most people did have one. We didn't have anything like a laundromat.
This may explain why Poland doesn't seem to understand the concept of a laundromat. As a tourist, this can be quite annoying. (Hotel laundry service is usually per-piece and thus way too expensive.)
Yeah, plenty of people in Poland would just wash their clothes either by hand or with a really cheap washer. And dryers were rare and land was plentiful, you'd just air dry.
Not that people don't own them now, but what they own now is a straight-up upgrade from what they had before.
At this point I'm sure there will soon be a market for laundromats in Poland, at least in the more urban areas. But it'd be a hard sell for the vast majority of Polish folks.
Not that people don't own them now, but what they own now is a straight-up upgrade from what they had before.
At this point I'm sure there will soon be a market for laundromats in Poland, at least in the more urban areas. But it'd be a hard sell for the vast majority of Polish folks.
When I've lived in hotels longer than a week at a time, I've sent just collared shirts and slacks to the laundry. Everything else can be satisfactorily washed in the bathtub. One place I stayed in Tokyo had this really long shoehorn in every room, which was ideal for stirring the tub.
> We didn't have anything like a laundromat.
They were called 'prachechnaya'.
And the situation in the USSR wasn't that rosy. Only 70% of the population owned these tiny machines.
They were called 'prachechnaya'.
And the situation in the USSR wasn't that rosy. Only 70% of the population owned these tiny machines.
They may have existed somewhere, but I'm not aware of any in my home town.
As with many things in the USSR, it may well have been regional and time-dependent. My memories are from mid-80s, although I know that my family had one before then. I didn't know anyone whose family didn't have one, and we weren't a nomenklatura family or anything like that - just a regular Soviet family with boring everyday jobs (teachers and engineers) - and neither were our neighbors and acquaintances.
As with many things in the USSR, it may well have been regional and time-dependent. My memories are from mid-80s, although I know that my family had one before then. I didn't know anyone whose family didn't have one, and we weren't a nomenklatura family or anything like that - just a regular Soviet family with boring everyday jobs (teachers and engineers) - and neither were our neighbors and acquaintances.
I find it really odd the US doesn't have washing machines in apartments.
Even the tiniest studio apartment in the UK would come with one. You very rarely see laundromats in the UK (usually in areas with a very high concentration of students, as halls of residence provision can be poor for them).
Why don't they have them in the US? You have water and electricity, so I can't understand why this is a big deal.
Even the tiniest studio apartment in the UK would come with one. You very rarely see laundromats in the UK (usually in areas with a very high concentration of students, as halls of residence provision can be poor for them).
Why don't they have them in the US? You have water and electricity, so I can't understand why this is a big deal.
Many of the apartments aren't designed well for such a set up, or have other strict noise rules, concerns over water problems and maintenance costs, or just simply the landlord doesn't like the idea of the units having the machines as even with more modern washers with good locks/seals, people still manage to misuse them and cause water damage. Or they just don't want to manage the maintenance for such units.
It's also possible that there's an expectation that you always have a washer/dryer combo, whereas having just the washing unit isn't uncommon from what I've seen in the EU/other parts of the world and then just having an air drying rack for drying. I was a little surprised when I first moved abroad at not having a dryer (and annoyed admittedly), but I got used to it pretty easily and just adjusted my laundry schedule. Likewise, the size may be a difference in expectation, as many people expect full sized units installed, not compact units.
It's also possible that there's an expectation that you always have a washer/dryer combo, whereas having just the washing unit isn't uncommon from what I've seen in the EU/other parts of the world and then just having an air drying rack for drying. I was a little surprised when I first moved abroad at not having a dryer (and annoyed admittedly), but I got used to it pretty easily and just adjusted my laundry schedule. Likewise, the size may be a difference in expectation, as many people expect full sized units installed, not compact units.
I've lived in 17th Century buildings in the UK that have all for washing machines - I doubt the apartments there had washing machines in mind when they were built :)
You guys also put your washing machine in the kitchen. In the US the washing machine goes in a different room, which means you have to run a lot more plumbing. Combination machines are also extremely rare, and people don't really air dry clothes much, so you need space for both a washer and dryer.
Plus a unit with an in-unit washer and dryer generally costs more than a similarly sized unit, and part of that space is taken up by a washer/dryer.
Plus a unit with an in-unit washer and dryer generally costs more than a similarly sized unit, and part of that space is taken up by a washer/dryer.
Plenty of apartments in the US have washing machines, I've lived in several apartments and all had a washing machine[1].
As for the reason why many don't - historical (they weren't designed when household washing machines didn't exist and were never retrofitted), and slumlords not wanting to manage another appliance.
Add to that nowadays Americans don't do much air drying of their clothes so a washer without a dryer is much less appealing. As long as you had physical space adding a washer to an apartment that wasn't designed for one is cheap. Adding a dryer is very costly - dedicated plug or gas line plus ventilation to the outside. So if it's not economically worth the dryer upgrade than most landlords just won't bother with a washer upgrade either.
If your landlord doesn't provide a washer and your apartment doesn't have washer hookups you could always get a portable washing machine (or jury rig a regular washer to be 'portable') for any apartment as long as you had somewhere to store it. I've even hear of someone splitting the water line under the sink to install a washer in a rental.
Same thing with dishwashers, some apartments have them, some don't.
[1]One apartment I lived in though had all the washing machines and dryers in the shared basement and they were coin operated and we weren't supposed to use them after 9.
As for the reason why many don't - historical (they weren't designed when household washing machines didn't exist and were never retrofitted), and slumlords not wanting to manage another appliance.
Add to that nowadays Americans don't do much air drying of their clothes so a washer without a dryer is much less appealing. As long as you had physical space adding a washer to an apartment that wasn't designed for one is cheap. Adding a dryer is very costly - dedicated plug or gas line plus ventilation to the outside. So if it's not economically worth the dryer upgrade than most landlords just won't bother with a washer upgrade either.
If your landlord doesn't provide a washer and your apartment doesn't have washer hookups you could always get a portable washing machine (or jury rig a regular washer to be 'portable') for any apartment as long as you had somewhere to store it. I've even hear of someone splitting the water line under the sink to install a washer in a rental.
Same thing with dishwashers, some apartments have them, some don't.
[1]One apartment I lived in though had all the washing machines and dryers in the shared basement and they were coin operated and we weren't supposed to use them after 9.
I would also add rent control laws as a possible reason for not renovating more apartments with washing machines. Many of the older buildings in San Francisco have tenants who have been living there for decades and pay rents that are well below market rates. Landlords have little incentive to make improvements since they can't easily raise rents. And tenants have little incentive to shop for a nicer apartment if it means losing their below-market rates.
When the tenant does finally move out, it's not uncommon for the landlord to renovate, add modern amenities, and raise prices significantly. Hence in-unit washing machines are on the rise and laundromats are on the decline. But it takes a long time for the process to play out.
When the tenant does finally move out, it's not uncommon for the landlord to renovate, add modern amenities, and raise prices significantly. Hence in-unit washing machines are on the rise and laundromats are on the decline. But it takes a long time for the process to play out.
"Adding a dryer is very costly"
Condenser dryers are pretty easy to install - all you need is an electrical outlet.
Condenser dryers are pretty easy to install - all you need is an electrical outlet.
Very cool that these exists. I had no idea. But I'm just your typical stupid American.
However, it looks like they're about 3x the cost of a vented dryer.
And smaller capacity than vented ones.
> Ventless dryers also take longer to get your clothes dry. A vented dryer might finish a Normal load in about 45-50 minutes, but a condenser or heat pump dryer could run for an hour and a half. Want to dry a bulky blanket or comforter? You could be waiting more than three hours.
http://laundry.reviewed.com/features/everything-you-need-to-...
However, it looks like they're about 3x the cost of a vented dryer.
And smaller capacity than vented ones.
> Ventless dryers also take longer to get your clothes dry. A vented dryer might finish a Normal load in about 45-50 minutes, but a condenser or heat pump dryer could run for an hour and a half. Want to dry a bulky blanket or comforter? You could be waiting more than three hours.
http://laundry.reviewed.com/features/everything-you-need-to-...
I've never waited 3 hours for our dryer to dry anything - in fact even a heavy blanket doesn't take more than an hour.
Do you live in a humid climate? I wonder if that impedes on the dry time at all (having to dry out the air before drying out the clothes drying in the air).
Scotland - I wouldn't say "humid" - just miserably damp. :-|
Maybe it's the 240V mains supply?
Maybe it's the 240V mains supply?
We send 240V to our dryers here, too.
Yes, but it's a "special" circuit that has to be wired specifically for that purpose.
That really shouldn't matter, though. 240V input is 240V input.
I should have specified "traditional dryer." New tech is pretty interesting, I didn't know they existed, but then again I don't pay much attention to dryers other than my own and my own needs ventilation to the outside and a special plug. Price would certainly be an issue in a lower cost rental unit.
Also RE: "much less appealing," should have specified "much less appealing to a prospective tenant than a washer/dryer combo thus wouldn't command higher rent thus isn't worth a landlord's time and money even if space is available right next to the sink for a cheap install." Line drying is much more common in other parts of the world.
Also RE: "much less appealing," should have specified "much less appealing to a prospective tenant than a washer/dryer combo thus wouldn't command higher rent thus isn't worth a landlord's time and money even if space is available right next to the sink for a cheap install." Line drying is much more common in other parts of the world.
The London bedsit I lived in a few years ago didn't have one, I had to use the nearby laundromat.
(Aside: as it turns out, I didn't know how washing machines worked, and I spent like a year washing my clothes without soap before the attendant told me. I now know that a "pre-wash" is... exactly what it sounds like, and it's not compatible with putting detergent tablets directly in the drum.)
(Aside: as it turns out, I didn't know how washing machines worked, and I spent like a year washing my clothes without soap before the attendant told me. I now know that a "pre-wash" is... exactly what it sounds like, and it's not compatible with putting detergent tablets directly in the drum.)
It comes down to: in NYC the landlords don't have to provide services in order to demand really high rents. They do the absolute least amount they can for the tenant while still being able to collect huge rents. We have a housing crisis which makes it a greedy landlord's market. Also, unless the unit is listed in the lease as a service, the LL is required to provide, the LL has no obligation to fix even the machines in a building's laundry room. So, they let them break and don't fix them because there is nothing a renter can do about it except break their lease. The rental market is so bad in NYC, that landlords will often not provide services that are required by law (heat, hot water) just to see if they can get away with it. They often do, as NYC tenants, especially new city residents, have no idea what their legal rights are.
The housing crisis in London is far worse. Salaries are (vastly, in many cases) lower and rents (pre brexit GBP/USD crash, at least) are very similar in nominal terms. You do have washers in nearly every flat, though.
That is terrible. I can't really imagine it being worse than here. Landlords are asking tenants to front 3-6 months in "security deposit" now, and tenants have to go to court to get it back when they leave. I'm so sorry it is worse in London. Well, at least you guys have clean clothes and free healthcare! I do think about moving to London after watching a whole season of Endeavour or Sherlock. That wallpaper in Sherlock is the bomb.
More insurance claims for water damage? When the washer/dryer set is owned by the renter than the renter's insurance will cover damages, vs the property owner.
Also, a lot of landlords will rent out washer/dryer sets to tenants for another monthly fee if they don't have their own to hook up.
Also, a lot of landlords will rent out washer/dryer sets to tenants for another monthly fee if they don't have their own to hook up.
Sounds like you have more of an issue with your upbringing than the existence of laundromats.
For most people, going to a laundromat is a necessity, not a choice to make their children build character. One "chooses" to go to a laundromat as much as one has chosen there place to live; which, in San Francisco and New York, can be limiting.
For most people, going to a laundromat is a necessity, not a choice to make their children build character. One "chooses" to go to a laundromat as much as one has chosen there place to live; which, in San Francisco and New York, can be limiting.
I hope this isn't entirely true. Granted, many laundromats are trashy with broken machines, but most are well-maintained. There are a few benefits that mean a lot to me.
I enjoy the old-school video games.
I enjoy the idea that a 2-hour load is not only cut in half, plus a multi-load wash is done in one hour.
But most of all, it's the last respite that I feel comfortable sitting down and doing absolutely nothing. It's generally quiet enough that I can just let my thoughts roam, watch the TV, play video games, or even take a short walk.
Maybe it's nostalgia, or that I never lived in a place with a well-functioning washer and drier, but for a short bit of do-absolutely nothing moments, I'll happily take the laundromat over the beach any day.
I enjoy the old-school video games.
I enjoy the idea that a 2-hour load is not only cut in half, plus a multi-load wash is done in one hour.
But most of all, it's the last respite that I feel comfortable sitting down and doing absolutely nothing. It's generally quiet enough that I can just let my thoughts roam, watch the TV, play video games, or even take a short walk.
Maybe it's nostalgia, or that I never lived in a place with a well-functioning washer and drier, but for a short bit of do-absolutely nothing moments, I'll happily take the laundromat over the beach any day.
I guess people will be nostalgic over just about anything.
I spent a lot of time in laundromats as a kid. My mom owned one at one point as well. They have a palpable pre-internet feel that is hard to come by these days, especially while still in civilization.
From the article:
Laundromats’ margins are further thinning as the price of water and sewage services have risen across the country. Utilities make up by far the heftiest of Lavanderia’s expenses, costing over $100,000 each year. Add to that the roughly $30,000 Tillman spends fixing his aging washers and dryers, and the laundromat is left with about $140,000 of profit each year, a number that continues to dwindle.
For a small business that pretty much runs itself, $140k / year actually seems like a pretty good profit to me. So I guess the issue is not so much that the laundromat business is unprofitable, but rather that compared to the value of the land it is sitting on, $140k/yr is a pretty terrible ROI.
Laundromats’ margins are further thinning as the price of water and sewage services have risen across the country. Utilities make up by far the heftiest of Lavanderia’s expenses, costing over $100,000 each year. Add to that the roughly $30,000 Tillman spends fixing his aging washers and dryers, and the laundromat is left with about $140,000 of profit each year, a number that continues to dwindle.
For a small business that pretty much runs itself, $140k / year actually seems like a pretty good profit to me. So I guess the issue is not so much that the laundromat business is unprofitable, but rather that compared to the value of the land it is sitting on, $140k/yr is a pretty terrible ROI.
Solar water heating seems like a no-brainer for a laundromat. Most are in strip malls or freestanding box-type buildings with a lot of flat open roof space.
Article also didn't seem to mention cost of emplying attendants. Never seen an unattended laundromat -- people need help with jammed coins, etc. and to prevent vandalism.
Article also didn't seem to mention cost of emplying attendants. Never seen an unattended laundromat -- people need help with jammed coins, etc. and to prevent vandalism.
In Europe, all laundromats I've seen were unattended :)
I don't remember seeing any attended laundromats when I lived in SF in 2013. I was in the Nob Hill area.
Somebody did come by to close them, and there was generally a number you could call if a machine ate your quarters.
When I moved to Portland I was impressed by all the apartments with in-building washers. I quickly realized they were a necessity here since there are very few laundromats.
Somebody did come by to close them, and there was generally a number you could call if a machine ate your quarters.
When I moved to Portland I was impressed by all the apartments with in-building washers. I quickly realized they were a necessity here since there are very few laundromats.
Most I've went to only have an attendent during part of the week, and some have no staff on hand at all. After attendant hours, you gotta call if you have problems. Vandalism was a problem, as is theft, but paying staff - especially in 24hour places - is more expensive.
Yeah, they give you an un-answered phone number to call in case of a jam.
I've never been in a laundromat with an attendant.
The problem is that things like a laundromat can contribute to the value of the land it's on. If it's gone then suddenly it becomes a less desirable area to rent in, the 7/11 next store doesn't have as many bored people etc.
The laundromat owner in the article recently explained (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sfbarentersfed/u898cgma8jE/7...) that the duration of the lease is a big determinant of whether it’s sustainable. It could very well be that a laundromat in the Mission district cannot afford today’s rents.
In the case of Lavanderia, since he is lucky to own the land, he is also mindful of the highest and best use of the land.
In the case of Lavanderia, since he is lucky to own the land, he is also mindful of the highest and best use of the land.
One thing I didn't see mentioned in the article or here: a good laundromat typically has machines you wouldn't want to squeeze into your house. For instance, the one close to me has washers that accept 70+ pounds of laundry at once - great for washing blankets & other large items. Having that machine at home wouldn't make any sense, given that it's really only needed a couple times a year for an individual person.
Having an over sized washing machine is actually well worth it so you wash that comforter more frequently. IMO, every 2-3 weeks is completely reasonable. It also makes washing pillows much easier.
The cost difference between a moderately sized washing machine and one that's a few cubic feet larger isn't that much. Over the lifetime of the machine it pays off.
And if you have the extra capacity, you'll use it more often than you would if you had to go to the laundromat for the annual duvet cleaning.
And if you have the extra capacity, you'll use it more often than you would if you had to go to the laundromat for the annual duvet cleaning.
Unfortunately initial cost isn't the only constraint. Apartment style top/bottom washer/dryer combos can only get so big. In addition, larger equipment requires greater amounts of electricity to run and maintenance can be a bit more expensive (larger parts).
In many places, water is scarce enough to discourage industrial-sized washing machines.
I did the laundromat thing for four years in grad school, then ten years in various units with in-house washer and dryer, and then back to a laundromat for the last six years. It was undeniably convenient to be able to wash something on a moment's notice or at night or whatever, but I have to say I really like the fact that for a 2-3 hour investment of time every 3-4 weeks, I can get my laundry all done, at once, because the laundromat lets me work massively in parallel. And because I'm running it all in parallel, I can sort the loads differently for wash and dry: for washing, sort by colour, and for drying, by fabric delicacy (jeans can take high heat, anything with elastic stays on medium or low, etc etc). My landlord has said it's fine for me to buy a washer/dryer (there is a hookup in the basement) but I've found I'm really not in any rush to do so.
We recently purchased a combination washer/dryer unit. We throw the dirty clothes every night before bed, set the timer (electricity prices here are lower over night), and the clothes are all washed, dried, and ready to be folded when we wake up in the morning. The only manual part of the process is folding/putting clothes away - but those tasks aren't really parallelizable anyway - so I fail to see how adding in a trip to a laundromat could yield better efficiencies.
Admittedly we don't really bother to separate anything (everything gets cold water, dry on low heat) - so you may be getting better results than us. :)
Admittedly we don't really bother to separate anything (everything gets cold water, dry on low heat) - so you may be getting better results than us. :)
Im still waiting for soft robotics to solve the folding.
There's a laundromat in my town, and once a month a local church (the First Brotheren Church, I think) provides free laundry service for anyone who wants it. They provide the soap and the quarters and then while your laundry is getting washed they provide food to eat. It's a really great community outreach service.
That's a church I could get behind.
Unfortunately, most good deeds go unnoticed. I hope they're advertising well to the kind of people who could really use a service like that.
Helped with a pantry service for a church, so often a week would go by that no one would show up. Infuriating. Food had to be thrown out.
Unfortunately, most good deeds go unnoticed. I hope they're advertising well to the kind of people who could really use a service like that.
Helped with a pantry service for a church, so often a week would go by that no one would show up. Infuriating. Food had to be thrown out.
Its advertised a few places around town. There's only about 1,200 people in my town, and they've been providing the service for a while, so I'm petty sure everyone in town knows about it.
I do hope all the laundromats don't go away, simply because I need one of the extra-large washers to be able to wash my comforter every so often.
You know, it's weird, but in other populous cities around the world, it's unusual to come across a laundromat (aside form hotels). I mean, if you look hard enough you can find some, but not easy.
I don't recall seeing them in east Asia and in Western Europe you can find some here and there --but definitely not very prevalent.
Plus, it's more convenient to have a facility in each unit, or failing that, in each apartment complex. You don't have to lug your stuff blocks away and have to interact with, at least in the US, odd elements, every so often.
On the other hand I do on occasion appreciate the big-loader units.
I don't recall seeing them in east Asia and in Western Europe you can find some here and there --but definitely not very prevalent.
Plus, it's more convenient to have a facility in each unit, or failing that, in each apartment complex. You don't have to lug your stuff blocks away and have to interact with, at least in the US, odd elements, every so often.
On the other hand I do on occasion appreciate the big-loader units.
Sweden is one country where it's common to have a free laundry room or two in the basement of each apartment building. Only downside being since there are few (but large) machines and many units, you need to book a time days in advance.
In Brussels they're absolutely everywhere. This page lists 42, and I'm not sure it's complete: https://www.hours.be/brussels/brussels/laundromats
Tokyo has a ton, often attached to public baths.
Here's a bunch (note the page numbers at the bottom):
https://loco.yahoo.co.jp/search/?ei=UTF-8&genrecd=0412010&ar...
Here's a bunch (note the page numbers at the bottom):
https://loco.yahoo.co.jp/search/?ei=UTF-8&genrecd=0412010&ar...
In Western Europe they're everywhere, at least in the larger cities. In Amsterdam I have two within walking distance. In Central/Eastern Europe (former communist countries) there are fewer to sometimes almost none.
Yes I can confirm there are very few Laundromats in Serbia and Croatia. There are laundry services where you can drop off your clothes to be cleaned, but no self-service machines.
Melbourne has laundromats _everywhere_
When I lived in the US, the lack of in-unit washing machines was quite unexpected. I had to pay $2 to use the shared (between 2 apartments) machine even though we as tenants paid the electric and water bills.
Most newer buildings being built (though those are hard to find, sometimes) always have a hookup available.
In my apartment hunting, I usually found that apartments which lacked a hookup were also built before it was a norm to have such a thing.
Seeing that American landry is almost entirely vented drying, a dedicated space of 30 square feet with an outside vent, sewer drain (and vent) and hot and cold spigot are nearly required. It's easy to see why so few old apartments have in-unit w/d hookup.
In my apartment hunting, I usually found that apartments which lacked a hookup were also built before it was a norm to have such a thing.
Seeing that American landry is almost entirely vented drying, a dedicated space of 30 square feet with an outside vent, sewer drain (and vent) and hot and cold spigot are nearly required. It's easy to see why so few old apartments have in-unit w/d hookup.
In rental accommodation in Sweden, a communal laundromat is the norm. You typically have between 2 and 10 machines, and you book your times. We also have tumble driers and drying closets and even manglers. As a database person, I batch my laundry just like operations in my transaction.
Actually, the analogy I use when explaining batching is the dishwasher. Imagine picking up 1 plate at a time and putting it in the cupboard.
Plus with most laundermats still cash, many under report revenues for taxes. I presume thats where the cliche "money laundering" may have come from.
Do any places accept digital pay? Perhaps for a token machine. I notice may of the two buck car washes now accept electronic money.
Do any places accept digital pay? Perhaps for a token machine. I notice may of the two buck car washes now accept electronic money.
Stay tuned for my new ICO -- LaundryCoin
Do any places accept digital pay?
I stopped in Klamath Falls, Oregon to do three weeks worth of filthy clothes while out traveling this summer and found a spectacular new laundromat which accepted Apple Pay! That's now my first line discriminator when looking for a laundromat on the road, if you take Apple Pay I'm picking you. That will weed out the low end mildew, lint, and mold holes that you sometimes find.
I stopped in Klamath Falls, Oregon to do three weeks worth of filthy clothes while out traveling this summer and found a spectacular new laundromat which accepted Apple Pay! That's now my first line discriminator when looking for a laundromat on the road, if you take Apple Pay I'm picking you. That will weed out the low end mildew, lint, and mold holes that you sometimes find.
Interestingly enough, a new laundromat just opened in my 30,000 person rural community.
It has always surprised me how rare, at least here in the bay, washer/dryer hookups are. I can't remember renting a place (even my shitty student studio) without them before.
One accessory that is sometimes sold with washers in europe is a small U-shaped plastic thing to hang the discharge pipe in the sink, which coupled with a small tap on the sink water line is enough to allow the usage of a washer.
When I lived in San Francisco, I paid for a laundry service. Picked up clothes and dropped them off a few days later.
Much cheaper than paying for an apartment with a washer/dryer!
Much cheaper than paying for an apartment with a washer/dryer!
Curious, what's the average price for something like that? Do you pay by load or garment?
Not sure about SF but NYC is teeming with laundries that'll pick up, clean, fold and drop-off for about $1 per pound with a $10 minimum. I drop off at my regular place (it's half a block, on the way to work) but friends use services that pick up and drop off within 30-45 minutes.
With the cost of soap and quarters for the machines etc it's almost cheaper than doing the loads yourself, definitely cheaper if you factor in the value of your time sitting around for 2 hours doing laundry.
There's a few "Uber for laundry" type startups that slap an app interface on top and charge 2-3x the price, but the old school laundries are efficient and cheap - they have your number on file so you just call and say "Pick up please" and they come. Very efficient marketplace.
You don't have a washer/dryer in your apartment in NYC unless you're a millionaire (somewhat facetious - but it's definitely a rarity due to old buildings/plumbing - many leases specifically forbid installing your own too).
Dry cleaning is per garment, though.
With the cost of soap and quarters for the machines etc it's almost cheaper than doing the loads yourself, definitely cheaper if you factor in the value of your time sitting around for 2 hours doing laundry.
There's a few "Uber for laundry" type startups that slap an app interface on top and charge 2-3x the price, but the old school laundries are efficient and cheap - they have your number on file so you just call and say "Pick up please" and they come. Very efficient marketplace.
You don't have a washer/dryer in your apartment in NYC unless you're a millionaire (somewhat facetious - but it's definitely a rarity due to old buildings/plumbing - many leases specifically forbid installing your own too).
Dry cleaning is per garment, though.
I've never used it (T-Shirt and Jeans programmer; oh so hip!), but there's an overnight delivery service for dry cleaning to my kids' daycare. Also thought that was pretty smart.
Living in NYC opened my eyes to how awesome laundromats can be. All your laundry done at the corner store, coming back neat and folded for a dollar a pound.
Calgon, take me away.
Calgon, take me away.
Slapping a pair of $1-$3/load machines in the basement of a 8-unit building is easy money for landlords and they get to say that there's "laundry in building" and tack a couple hundred bucks onto the rend even if there's no practical way for all those people to make use of it.
It's weird you'd get planning permission for building residential buildings with units that don't have washer/dryer hookups in (some places in) the US. (At least my take away from TFA was that there are still new buildings being build like that)
I dunno, laundromats seem to be doing a-ok in the Los Angeles region. Even in nicer neighborhoods you can find one pretty dang quickly.
I use one and I enjoy it oddly enough-- its quick but just enough time to get some reading done or people watching.
I use one and I enjoy it oddly enough-- its quick but just enough time to get some reading done or people watching.
I really don't see why more laundromats haven't added cafés and internet/wifi, or even small eateries. Or conversely, some cafés haven't added small laundromats.
I work a single day at a laundromat/bar combination to supplement my income and actually be on my feet for a day. Most people are amazed it isn't more popular when they discover it. Having a cold draft while waiting for your wash or folding your clothes can be quite nice. We even have regulars who just drink.
We are near a university, so I think this works out better than say a rural or low-income area. We have a large homeless population around here who use the establishment, and can be a bit bothersome in some of their behavior when visiting (such as whore bath in the bathroom).
We have free WiFi as well.
We are near a university, so I think this works out better than say a rural or low-income area. We have a large homeless population around here who use the establishment, and can be a bit bothersome in some of their behavior when visiting (such as whore bath in the bathroom).
We have free WiFi as well.
The laundromat I used in grad school was owned by Korean immigrants. They opened up a little restaurant that became popular enough that when I went in to do laundry one day during the summer they told me they weren't running the laundromat during the summer.
TIL there is a Coin Laundry Association, and that they have a biannual conference in Las Vegas.
George Carlin joked that every group that made it in America had its own magazine to show for it. I suspect industry conferences are the business version of that :)
Gophercon was a few weeks ago in Denver. At the same time the "National Cattlemen's Beef Association" was also holding a conference at the convention center. My coworkers and I joked that we should ask them to make us burgers.
So do they take the coins from the laundromats and put them in the slot machines?
Aside, being the one to climb down into the bulkheads in a laundromat is a good inventive to go to college.
I agree the laundry business is changing and probably declining overall, but I think 2005 is a bad baseline.
In the late '90s some laundry equiptment manufacturers put together unreasonable financing deals for building or renovating laundromats. If you see a laundromat from that time that has Maytag or Speed Queen signs out front it was probably built using one of those packages
The financing was sold with revenue or utility saving estimates that were completely out of line with reality, and many of those stores ended up collapsing under the debt and closing within 5-10 years of being built, and so probably had a peak number of them around 2005.
I saw this first hand having helped build then disassemble more than one store in Wisconsin and Illinois.