No Country for Old Developers(medium.com)
medium.com
No Country for Old Developers
https://medium.com/swlh/no-country-for-old-developers-44a55dd93778
93 comments
Well said! My product management take on the subject is that people's perception of you is far more important than the reality. Skills or not, your appearance, mannerisms, relatability, and a thousand other things go into other's perceptions.
Being older and from another generation changes the perception inherently. Can be good or bad it turns out, but it certainly requires human management skills and cannot be simply solved by "being better". That seems like an engineer's solution to the problem. If people were rational then things could be different, but from what I have seen people do not buy the most efficient and effective products, nor do they hire the most skilled and efficient people. They hire someone because they feel good about hiring them and they believe they will make their lives easier.
Being older and from another generation changes the perception inherently. Can be good or bad it turns out, but it certainly requires human management skills and cannot be simply solved by "being better". That seems like an engineer's solution to the problem. If people were rational then things could be different, but from what I have seen people do not buy the most efficient and effective products, nor do they hire the most skilled and efficient people. They hire someone because they feel good about hiring them and they believe they will make their lives easier.
"Skills can beat ageism" also ignores the fact that many people only have the aptitude for average skills. In a system without discrimination that's not a problem because there are plenty of jobs for average developers.
If you just want to rant against SV, I totally agree. It's certainly not fair, because it basically says you have to "work twice as hard" as they say. But the statement is factually correct. While it would certainly be preferable for society to be the one to change and such that your ageism problem goes away. In the meantime, merit matters, and usable advice for an individual to deal with this problem is by building up their skills. Note that the advice came from a recruiter, not a hiring manager justifying themselves.
> It's certainly not fair, because it basically says you have to "work twice as hard" as they say. But the statement is factually correct.
It assumes that everyone is lazying around basically.
Because of people are not lazying around, no, you can not just work twice as hard. Because you are already working hard, exactly as your competitors do. No people can't double their hard work every time they are treated unfairly. Not if they were actually working in the first place.
That goes for ageism, sexism, racism, whatever-ism we talk about.
It assumes that everyone is lazying around basically.
Because of people are not lazying around, no, you can not just work twice as hard. Because you are already working hard, exactly as your competitors do. No people can't double their hard work every time they are treated unfairly. Not if they were actually working in the first place.
That goes for ageism, sexism, racism, whatever-ism we talk about.
"Hard work" is ultimately just a simple metaphor. I would characterize the advice here as maneuvering into a niche in your field with the highest demand for labor and with less competition (i.e. the niche using the most up-to-date technologies).
"Rather, prejudiced people take one look at you, see your gray hair, and make assumptions about you""
Often, I suspect, it isn't even about making conscious assumptions. People just have positive and negative subconscious reactions to certain physical traits.
It's striking that you virtually never hear any discussion of "height discrimination", which I put in scare quotes because it barely seems to a recognized concept in the world of work (although it is somewhat recognized in the dating world). Yet there's lots of evidence that tall people have systematic advantages in life. They're seen as leaders, more likely to become CEOs, more like to be elected to political office, etc.
Often, I suspect, it isn't even about making conscious assumptions. People just have positive and negative subconscious reactions to certain physical traits.
It's striking that you virtually never hear any discussion of "height discrimination", which I put in scare quotes because it barely seems to a recognized concept in the world of work (although it is somewhat recognized in the dating world). Yet there's lots of evidence that tall people have systematic advantages in life. They're seen as leaders, more likely to become CEOs, more like to be elected to political office, etc.
I'm a software engineer in my 40's. I also worry about ageism.
I don't want to victim blame. There is probably discrimination. But I think the older developers have some responsibility in defeating ageism.
I know a few SWEs who are older than me. They are already feeling the burnout of learning the new languages, frameworks, technologies every 3-4 years. Some of them are set in their ways thinking, "why would you need anything else other than C++/Java/etc.?" They grumble every time they are forced to learn something new. They have a point. After working in the industry for 15+ years, I empathize. But in this industry, that's unfortunately not the right attitude to have.
Another problem I see with older engineers is they are intimidated by the younger kids. I get it. When I interviewed some fresh grads, they seemed extremely talented and smart. I felt intimated by how much they knew. Some of the old guys lose confidence because of that. One old engineer who got laid off gave up looking for another job and faced early retirement. He told me he can't compete with the younger kids who already know all the new technologies and techniques.
Besides skills, I think it comes down to your attitude and how you relate to your younger co-workers. Being in my 40's, I still can relate to the kids. I try to bring a "young" energy. I'll see if I can keep this up into my 50's and maybe 60's.
I don't want to victim blame. There is probably discrimination. But I think the older developers have some responsibility in defeating ageism.
I know a few SWEs who are older than me. They are already feeling the burnout of learning the new languages, frameworks, technologies every 3-4 years. Some of them are set in their ways thinking, "why would you need anything else other than C++/Java/etc.?" They grumble every time they are forced to learn something new. They have a point. After working in the industry for 15+ years, I empathize. But in this industry, that's unfortunately not the right attitude to have.
Another problem I see with older engineers is they are intimidated by the younger kids. I get it. When I interviewed some fresh grads, they seemed extremely talented and smart. I felt intimated by how much they knew. Some of the old guys lose confidence because of that. One old engineer who got laid off gave up looking for another job and faced early retirement. He told me he can't compete with the younger kids who already know all the new technologies and techniques.
Besides skills, I think it comes down to your attitude and how you relate to your younger co-workers. Being in my 40's, I still can relate to the kids. I try to bring a "young" energy. I'll see if I can keep this up into my 50's and maybe 60's.
>Besides skills, I think it comes down to your attitude and how you relate to your younger co-workers
Also an engineer in my mid-40's. This is key. You need to be the "cool" dad in the room, and someone people can go to for hard/difficult problems. You also have to stay relevant and keep your skills up to date. Talk about the great ramen place near your house, not how you had to solve Y2K problems with COBOL 20 years ago.
The worst case scenario is if you're a bootcamp grad at 40+, you're gonna have all the problems of ageism without any of the experience to counteract it.
Also an engineer in my mid-40's. This is key. You need to be the "cool" dad in the room, and someone people can go to for hard/difficult problems. You also have to stay relevant and keep your skills up to date. Talk about the great ramen place near your house, not how you had to solve Y2K problems with COBOL 20 years ago.
The worst case scenario is if you're a bootcamp grad at 40+, you're gonna have all the problems of ageism without any of the experience to counteract it.
I agree. You need to be the cool uncle or older brother who shows them new tricks and cool stuff.
You need to have a mentor like quality for their career growth yet still talk about the latest movies, technologies, games, memes, random geeky stuff, etc. to them
You need to have a mentor like quality for their career growth yet still talk about the latest movies, technologies, games, memes, random geeky stuff, etc. to them
I don't know man?
Game theoretically speaking, if a tech worker is older it's best to know what younger workers do not. For instance, an older worker is a good deal more likely to be hired if s/he is able to write the firmware for ray tracing video card hardware than s/he is to be hired for knowing how to write web apps in "cool language of the week". In fact, I'd argue that most of the older tech workers in the situation of being discriminated against, are the workers who spent their careers learning "cool language of the week". A few of them may get lucky and get a job doing something that a 22 year old new college grad can do, but what's the likelihood? Should you bet your family's future on those odds? Even if you get the job, what's the pay likely to be like?
I feel like a lot of tech workers never ask themselves these questions. It's never too early to ask them either, in fact you should ask them early in your career. Getting too comfortable doing things everyone knows how to do will make you decidedly uncomfortable once you hit 35 or 40.
Game theoretically speaking, if a tech worker is older it's best to know what younger workers do not. For instance, an older worker is a good deal more likely to be hired if s/he is able to write the firmware for ray tracing video card hardware than s/he is to be hired for knowing how to write web apps in "cool language of the week". In fact, I'd argue that most of the older tech workers in the situation of being discriminated against, are the workers who spent their careers learning "cool language of the week". A few of them may get lucky and get a job doing something that a 22 year old new college grad can do, but what's the likelihood? Should you bet your family's future on those odds? Even if you get the job, what's the pay likely to be like?
I feel like a lot of tech workers never ask themselves these questions. It's never too early to ask them either, in fact you should ask them early in your career. Getting too comfortable doing things everyone knows how to do will make you decidedly uncomfortable once you hit 35 or 40.
Perhaps. But it's rare that an industry just sits around and stagnates to the extent that 20+ year old knowledge is applicable to current day problems. Even in the graphics industry, 20 years ago we were still discovering perspective correction and shaders were but a pipe dream.
The problem set keeps evolving, and the tools we use to solve those problems keep evolving as well. Handwritten HTML -> vanilla JS -> jQuery -> Angular -> React, etc. It's not just the languages, it's major paradigm shifts in solving problems.
If you want to get out of that rat race, then jump on the management track and stay there. Even then, though, you need some familiarity with what your team will be working on.
The problem set keeps evolving, and the tools we use to solve those problems keep evolving as well. Handwritten HTML -> vanilla JS -> jQuery -> Angular -> React, etc. It's not just the languages, it's major paradigm shifts in solving problems.
If you want to get out of that rat race, then jump on the management track and stay there. Even then, though, you need some familiarity with what your team will be working on.
If an engineer with 20 years of experience is intimidated by a new grad then that’s not ageism, and not what this thread is about. If a new grad performs better then there is literally no point in hiring that engineer. They don’t bring anything to the table and there is no room for growth. If you’re in your 50’s then ideally you’d be at least a principal engineer at a big tech company by then.
So You propose that the future for every developer is either go up or go out? Am I the only one that this reeks of pyramid scheme?
In reality only one in ten can become "principal engineer". But it does not mean that the other nine does not have any skills and should not work in the field.
I have seen this sentiment many times and I'm cannot understand why so many people is blind to the fact that this attitude creates serious systematic problems and is inhuman (because some abstract efficiency takes precedence over well-being).
In reality only one in ten can become "principal engineer". But it does not mean that the other nine does not have any skills and should not work in the field.
I have seen this sentiment many times and I'm cannot understand why so many people is blind to the fact that this attitude creates serious systematic problems and is inhuman (because some abstract efficiency takes precedence over well-being).
It's not technically ageism. You're right.
But there's an engineer in his 50's, who worked in his company for many years. He had intimate knowledge of its systems and domain. But his company got bought out, and the new owners decided they don't need that group anymore and lays off the entire group. Suddenly, his domain expertise is near-useless unless he can find another, similar position.
He interviews for other positions, but he is hit with questions he's not familiar with. He drones on about his old systems/architect like an old fogey who not up to date with the new, shiny stuff. He tries to study the new stuff, but he's tired, overwhelmed, burnt out, etc. His interviewers realizes he has a lot of experience and probably highly skilled, but his skills and experience aren't relevant enough to what their company is doing. They offer to hire him at a junior rate, or not hire him at all. Is this ageism, or is he not good enough?
But there's an engineer in his 50's, who worked in his company for many years. He had intimate knowledge of its systems and domain. But his company got bought out, and the new owners decided they don't need that group anymore and lays off the entire group. Suddenly, his domain expertise is near-useless unless he can find another, similar position.
He interviews for other positions, but he is hit with questions he's not familiar with. He drones on about his old systems/architect like an old fogey who not up to date with the new, shiny stuff. He tries to study the new stuff, but he's tired, overwhelmed, burnt out, etc. His interviewers realizes he has a lot of experience and probably highly skilled, but his skills and experience aren't relevant enough to what their company is doing. They offer to hire him at a junior rate, or not hire him at all. Is this ageism, or is he not good enough?
No, that's not ageism - Also that's almost never how the story goes.
The last paragraph is more commonly:
He/she applies to a position relevant to his/her skills, and makes the mistake of listing all is previous experience in the resume - No response. After a while, he downplays his resume - gets responses. In the interview he/she answers every question with great accuracy, but something just doesn't "click" to the interviewer (the interviewer is sure he/she is filtering on skill alone, but is very wrong about that)
The fact is, recruiters and interviewers hire people they like, people that are similar to them. If you're from the same place look similar and from a similar age it generally has a lot more weight than anything skill-related.
The last paragraph is more commonly:
He/she applies to a position relevant to his/her skills, and makes the mistake of listing all is previous experience in the resume - No response. After a while, he downplays his resume - gets responses. In the interview he/she answers every question with great accuracy, but something just doesn't "click" to the interviewer (the interviewer is sure he/she is filtering on skill alone, but is very wrong about that)
The fact is, recruiters and interviewers hire people they like, people that are similar to them. If you're from the same place look similar and from a similar age it generally has a lot more weight than anything skill-related.
There are two very different versions of this.
People who refuse to learn any new tech or tooling while on the job will find fewer and fewer positions. That's fair. The key thing is that there is a second group, that doesn't know the trendy technology and would be able to easily learn on the job but doesn't get hired because they didn't learn it on their own time. Failing to hire the second group is a problem.
I've never encountered a skilled engineer that couldn't pick up a new language/framework/architecture/workflow/process relatively quickly.
People who refuse to learn any new tech or tooling while on the job will find fewer and fewer positions. That's fair. The key thing is that there is a second group, that doesn't know the trendy technology and would be able to easily learn on the job but doesn't get hired because they didn't learn it on their own time. Failing to hire the second group is a problem.
I've never encountered a skilled engineer that couldn't pick up a new language/framework/architecture/workflow/process relatively quickly.
In my 50's and keeping it up: it's easier to be cheerful when you've seen much much worse, it's easier to take the new hotness with the right amount of curiosity when you've seen the same product in different packaging five times, it's easier to relate to younglings who have passion and curiosity when you have passion and curiosity, it's easier to not get stuck being of a given generation, eg. the Java or C++ crews, when you grew up at a time when things were like now, more in flux than they've been during the 2000 aughts and earlier teens.
There was a research in Canada about hiring discrimination. One of those ones where they send mock resumes to employers with similar contents but different applicant names: some had English names, some had non-English (mainly Asian IIRC) names. Then they compare the number of callbacks they got from employers.
The result of this particular study was that: 1) the resumes with non-English sounding names had much fewer callbacks than the ones with English names. 2) the resumes with more education and experience got more callbacks than the results with less education and experience. 3) if you had a non-English name and a master's, you almost but not quite, had the same rate of callback as someone with a bachelor's and an English name.
I imagine some people see this and conclude that skills beat racism. But if the reality is that you have to get a PhD and a couple of years of extra experience under your belt to have the same chance of finding a job as an English Canadian who has newly graduated from good BSc, then this is not skills beating racism. The fact that some people have to do a lot of extra work for the same outcome is the epitome of discrimination.
The result of this particular study was that: 1) the resumes with non-English sounding names had much fewer callbacks than the ones with English names. 2) the resumes with more education and experience got more callbacks than the results with less education and experience. 3) if you had a non-English name and a master's, you almost but not quite, had the same rate of callback as someone with a bachelor's and an English name.
I imagine some people see this and conclude that skills beat racism. But if the reality is that you have to get a PhD and a couple of years of extra experience under your belt to have the same chance of finding a job as an English Canadian who has newly graduated from good BSc, then this is not skills beating racism. The fact that some people have to do a lot of extra work for the same outcome is the epitome of discrimination.
Sure you can dislike all you want but what its gonna do?
Which is more practical and useful: Change people perception or skills ?
Which is more practical and useful: Change people perception or skills ?
It's a scientific fact that fluid intelligence peaks early. Crystallized intelligence peaks later, but that comes with the assumption that you acquired valuable experience.
Bear with me if you've heard me tell this story before on HN:
After age 40 I changed careers from a networking career to coding via a bootcamp. I was among a couple folks who were in my age group in the camp.
It was a great experience working with folks of all ages in the camp. I think mixing different ages, backgrounds, experience is valuable.
While finishing the camp I was working with another person who was my age and he got a call back from a recruiter after a phone interview. He put them on speaker and the recruiter proceeded to note that they didn't think he would be a 'culture fit'.
He was braver than I and asked what that meant.
"They think you're too old for the group, everyone is young here."
We were a bit shocked and just to be sure he heard her right he asked again:
"You're too old."
For some folks it doesn't even seem to occur to them that such discrimination is wrong.
I was a bit floored by the experience. Growing up I remember overhearing some teachers quietly chat to each other and realizing that they could be just as petty as any kids could be. From then on I really never thought much in terms of age. For whatever reason when I go to meetups younger devs don't seem to notice / are a bit surprised when they find out how old I am.
When I think back on my career(s) I realize how just one opportunity here or there can make a huge difference and having a place that is obviously closed to me based on age make it known was pretty shocking.
Nothing ever came of that event. While trying to just get your foot in the door he didn't want to do anything about it and I could hardly blame him.
Both of us were eventually hired elsewhere, and are doing well.
After age 40 I changed careers from a networking career to coding via a bootcamp. I was among a couple folks who were in my age group in the camp.
It was a great experience working with folks of all ages in the camp. I think mixing different ages, backgrounds, experience is valuable.
While finishing the camp I was working with another person who was my age and he got a call back from a recruiter after a phone interview. He put them on speaker and the recruiter proceeded to note that they didn't think he would be a 'culture fit'.
He was braver than I and asked what that meant.
"They think you're too old for the group, everyone is young here."
We were a bit shocked and just to be sure he heard her right he asked again:
"You're too old."
For some folks it doesn't even seem to occur to them that such discrimination is wrong.
I was a bit floored by the experience. Growing up I remember overhearing some teachers quietly chat to each other and realizing that they could be just as petty as any kids could be. From then on I really never thought much in terms of age. For whatever reason when I go to meetups younger devs don't seem to notice / are a bit surprised when they find out how old I am.
When I think back on my career(s) I realize how just one opportunity here or there can make a huge difference and having a place that is obviously closed to me based on age make it known was pretty shocking.
Nothing ever came of that event. While trying to just get your foot in the door he didn't want to do anything about it and I could hardly blame him.
Both of us were eventually hired elsewhere, and are doing well.
That is ageism and is illegal in the US. The recruiter and the kids need a bit of spanking to learn the lesson
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/discrimination/agedisc
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/discrimination/agedisc
I'm glad you were eventually hired.
I used to work in academia as a professor and the occasional older students were always a joy to work with. And usually, they went along perfectly fine with the other students (at least with the more mature ones).
It's a shame that we have all these educational resources available but practically most people don't have access to it. I'd love to spend a couple of years learning a new field.
I used to work in academia as a professor and the occasional older students were always a joy to work with. And usually, they went along perfectly fine with the other students (at least with the more mature ones).
It's a shame that we have all these educational resources available but practically most people don't have access to it. I'd love to spend a couple of years learning a new field.
I had the same experience with older students. They always had a certain perspective that was lacking with the younger students. I wouldn't say they were harder working, or less harder working, but I think they took things in stride a bit better, and were better with time management. They also tended to be coming from some other areas first, and so understood bigger picture issues a bit better.
When I worked in networking I often had the new folks / interns sitting next to me for a while.
Discussions about 'pick your battles' and other similar ones were the most common.
Discussions about 'pick your battles' and other similar ones were the most common.
Yes, “culture fit” always and only means this sort of thing. It’s ineffable and not falsifiable, which makes it a great cover for discrimination.
Culture should be an emergent property of the group of people who were hired because they were able to do the job.
Culture should be an emergent property of the group of people who were hired because they were able to do the job.
I just got a SWE job offer at a FAANG and I'm in my mid-forties. I took the exact same interviews as anybody else. They've also been contacted me regularly for the last three years. My age isn't written on my resume, but they can easily infer I'm in my forties. My guess is that recruiters don't care as long as they think you have a chance passing the coding interviews.
I realize that older developers are slightly uncommon, but maybe it's also because they get bored and think they have better career prospects elsewhere. Personnally, I still love to code and learn new things, as I've always had. I'm used to working with people younger/older than me and it has never been an issue either.
That being said, I'm anxious that age becomes an issue along the road. There's also no denying that there is some sort of discrimination against older people. Simply look at the pictures on companies websites and presentation material, they clearly want to show how diverse they are except for older persons...
I'm just curious: older people working in big companies, have you ever discussed that with people in charge of promoting/ensuring diversity? I think there's a good point to make.
I realize that older developers are slightly uncommon, but maybe it's also because they get bored and think they have better career prospects elsewhere. Personnally, I still love to code and learn new things, as I've always had. I'm used to working with people younger/older than me and it has never been an issue either.
That being said, I'm anxious that age becomes an issue along the road. There's also no denying that there is some sort of discrimination against older people. Simply look at the pictures on companies websites and presentation material, they clearly want to show how diverse they are except for older persons...
I'm just curious: older people working in big companies, have you ever discussed that with people in charge of promoting/ensuring diversity? I think there's a good point to make.
>I realize that older developers are slightly uncommon,
I wonder if that is really the case or not.
I wonder if that is really the case or not.
This probably is true. The industry has been growing quickly for decades so there will naturally be far more people with ten years' experience than thirty years', say. Most people who enter the industry are young, so you would expect the demographic to skew young.
I think it’s a perception. I’m a youngster in my business unit (500 engineers) at a spry 39.
It is not. I think the idea comes from the fact that people have this idea of "developers" as people who work for startups or FAANG companies. Most developers work in unsexy industries and in boring places. Insurance companies in Indiana, a hospital Utah, an manufacturing plant outside of Houston, etc.
There's also the fact that middle-aged developers raising families don't have time to blog and be "influencers" on social media.
That being said, ageism is definitely an issue in the industry. A lot of it has to do with so many companies having an "FTE" based approach to viewing things. Some moron with an MBA and no actual real-world skills sees a 55 year-old developer and thinks, "I can replace him with two new grads and still have money left over".
There's also the fact that middle-aged developers raising families don't have time to blog and be "influencers" on social media.
That being said, ageism is definitely an issue in the industry. A lot of it has to do with so many companies having an "FTE" based approach to viewing things. Some moron with an MBA and no actual real-world skills sees a 55 year-old developer and thinks, "I can replace him with two new grads and still have money left over".
FWIW here's some data from the 2020 Stack Overflow developer survey: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020#developer-pro...
To what extent is the survey representative? Hard to say. I'd be interested to see other sources of data.
To what extent is the survey representative? Hard to say. I'd be interested to see other sources of data.
I also wonder what the median age is for different technologies. I'd assume that developers are younger in frontend/mobile apps than in backend or C++ enterprise software.
Congrats (seriously)!
However, many of the interview tests themselves seem to discriminate for age (or at least, distance from college graduation as a function of time). Like another commenter here noted, its a collection of typically smaller, indirect biases against age that add up on a scale.
Also, being mid-forties isn't too bad as long as you aren't applying to a SV startup. I'd be curious what the result would have been if you were say, 57. Note: 57 is still 10 whole years from social security retirement age.
However, many of the interview tests themselves seem to discriminate for age (or at least, distance from college graduation as a function of time). Like another commenter here noted, its a collection of typically smaller, indirect biases against age that add up on a scale.
Also, being mid-forties isn't too bad as long as you aren't applying to a SV startup. I'd be curious what the result would have been if you were say, 57. Note: 57 is still 10 whole years from social security retirement age.
> Congrats (seriously)!
Thanks!
> However, many of the interview tests themselves seem to discriminate for age (or at least, distance from college graduation as a function of time)
This is correct. I would add that it also (and perhaps mostly) discriminates on your ability to find time to prepare for the interviews.
I don't have kids, and my job left me enough time for preparation. But I can see how it's not the case for a lot of people in their 30/40s.
Thanks!
> However, many of the interview tests themselves seem to discriminate for age (or at least, distance from college graduation as a function of time)
This is correct. I would add that it also (and perhaps mostly) discriminates on your ability to find time to prepare for the interviews.
I don't have kids, and my job left me enough time for preparation. But I can see how it's not the case for a lot of people in their 30/40s.
Like other "isms" ageism rarely announces itself as such. Instead it cloaks itself in other forms of bias that "just happen" to be correlated with age. For example, oncall requirements and late meetings/offsites are primarily burdensome to those with families, but that's disproportionately older workers. Open offices are less endurable for older workers because of otherwise-neutral changes in hearing and concentration. And so on.
An even more subtle form of ageism is discrimination against certain technical/process habits that are correlated with when one entered the industry and therefore with age. For example, older engineers are more likely to believe in thinking through problems before starting to code, but in a "move fast" culture that's considered outdated. Older developers are likely to be more conservative when estimating technical difficulty or time to completion, which gets interpreted as unwillingness to commit (especially compared to younger developers who often wildly overcommit and suffer no consequence). Older workers are more likely to push back against corporate happy-talk because they've heard it all before and it never amounted to anything, but that can be interpreted as disloyalty or a "culture fit" problem.
Ageism is not one big obvious thing; it's a collection of small subtle things. Bit by bit by bit, these things nibble away at older workers' individual productivity and collaborative opportunities. Many overcome it. I did OK for myself in three years when I was 20+ years older than the median for the two groups I was in at a FAANG. But just because a problem is overcome doesn't mean it's not a problem.
An even more subtle form of ageism is discrimination against certain technical/process habits that are correlated with when one entered the industry and therefore with age. For example, older engineers are more likely to believe in thinking through problems before starting to code, but in a "move fast" culture that's considered outdated. Older developers are likely to be more conservative when estimating technical difficulty or time to completion, which gets interpreted as unwillingness to commit (especially compared to younger developers who often wildly overcommit and suffer no consequence). Older workers are more likely to push back against corporate happy-talk because they've heard it all before and it never amounted to anything, but that can be interpreted as disloyalty or a "culture fit" problem.
Ageism is not one big obvious thing; it's a collection of small subtle things. Bit by bit by bit, these things nibble away at older workers' individual productivity and collaborative opportunities. Many overcome it. I did OK for myself in three years when I was 20+ years older than the median for the two groups I was in at a FAANG. But just because a problem is overcome doesn't mean it's not a problem.
I started coding professionally in my mid-30's. I am in my early 50's. If I have ever been discriminated against because of my age, I am not aware of it, and don't care because I've always found work.
Now, I should mention that I did switch a few years back to doing consulting/temporary positions, although sometimes these "temporary" positions last over a year. This means two things: 1) I buy my own healthcare insurance (I recommend using healthsherpa.com to help do that), so it could be that employers don't worry about my age because they don't have to pay for my insurance 2) I am forced into a position of having to learn new things every year, whether it's a new industry or a new library/framework or a new language or whatever. This means I cannot become unwilling to try new things.
I do think it's true that you need to not activate the "he's too old to do new things" alarm bells, by being very circumspect about criticizing new trends. But this is probably a healthy habit to cultivate anyway; give the new trend a chance, at least.
Also, there is a difference in the respect given to older programmers relative to other industries. In most fields (e.g. doctor, lawyer, banker, even engineer) as you get older, you become higher status and your opinions are given greater respect. In programming, your opinion is worth about what anyone else's is. So, if you think that after programming for decades your opinion ought to be given more weight than the 23 year old's, you're in the wrong industry. But, I think the best teams have both young and old programmers, and it's healthy to be in a team where young people are willing to speak up and disagree with you.
Now, I should mention that I did switch a few years back to doing consulting/temporary positions, although sometimes these "temporary" positions last over a year. This means two things: 1) I buy my own healthcare insurance (I recommend using healthsherpa.com to help do that), so it could be that employers don't worry about my age because they don't have to pay for my insurance 2) I am forced into a position of having to learn new things every year, whether it's a new industry or a new library/framework or a new language or whatever. This means I cannot become unwilling to try new things.
I do think it's true that you need to not activate the "he's too old to do new things" alarm bells, by being very circumspect about criticizing new trends. But this is probably a healthy habit to cultivate anyway; give the new trend a chance, at least.
Also, there is a difference in the respect given to older programmers relative to other industries. In most fields (e.g. doctor, lawyer, banker, even engineer) as you get older, you become higher status and your opinions are given greater respect. In programming, your opinion is worth about what anyone else's is. So, if you think that after programming for decades your opinion ought to be given more weight than the 23 year old's, you're in the wrong industry. But, I think the best teams have both young and old programmers, and it's healthy to be in a team where young people are willing to speak up and disagree with you.
yes, same here. my first SWE job was at 26, now 52 and my career has never felt more stable in terms of my ability to get another good job if my current one fell through. i love what i do and have a strong motivation to earn, so I have always made an effort to stay current, and that's translated to continually being in demand. I feel confident I'll be be able ride it out as long as I need to, if my health and the economy hold up!
From someone solidly in the age bracket that is supposedly discriminated against, what utter nonsense.
This is a bunch of hand-wavey garbage with no actual data backing it up. Some anonymous "surveys" and uncited statements of fact starting with "Chances are" or "in some cases."
> Even if you get offered a position you will likely be offered a lower wage if going for a junior job.
Yes, that's how it works. You get paid for the position. If you have the experience for a senior role, don't go for a junior job and expect a senior paycheck. If you don't have the experience and can only apply for a junior role, why should you get paid more? Your mortgage and kids' tuition is irrelevant to the value you're providing to the company.
> For a 50-year-old it may prove a struggle to make a career change pay off and could take several years to climb the ladder to reach a livable wage.
Isn't the common refrain to 20-somethings that they should just eat out less and live with roommates if they're not making enough money? If it's that easy then the 50-year-old should do it, too.
I've worked for small mom-and-pop companies and large public corporations. Every supposed example of "ageism" I've seen in real life is much more about attitude than age.
> Training and promotion opportunities may not go your way if you’re older. They may be offered to younger staff
Again with the hand-wavey "may not go your way...may be offered," but I don't accept the premise anyway. In my experience training is allocated based on how enthusiastically someone wants to get training, and how willing they are to follow-up and ask about funding, getting time on the work schedule, etc. If your attitude is "I know everything I need to know to get my job done," the company is unlikely to go out of their way to spend thousands on training you.
I've seen the "f you, I know everything I need to" attitude from 27 year old jerks, and I've seen 60-something programmers tearing through the framework du jour without any trouble. It has nothing to do with stagnation and everything to do with willingness to learn, willingness to listen, willing to do something new, and whether or not you think everyone has something they could teach you.
This is a bunch of hand-wavey garbage with no actual data backing it up. Some anonymous "surveys" and uncited statements of fact starting with "Chances are" or "in some cases."
> Even if you get offered a position you will likely be offered a lower wage if going for a junior job.
Yes, that's how it works. You get paid for the position. If you have the experience for a senior role, don't go for a junior job and expect a senior paycheck. If you don't have the experience and can only apply for a junior role, why should you get paid more? Your mortgage and kids' tuition is irrelevant to the value you're providing to the company.
> For a 50-year-old it may prove a struggle to make a career change pay off and could take several years to climb the ladder to reach a livable wage.
Isn't the common refrain to 20-somethings that they should just eat out less and live with roommates if they're not making enough money? If it's that easy then the 50-year-old should do it, too.
I've worked for small mom-and-pop companies and large public corporations. Every supposed example of "ageism" I've seen in real life is much more about attitude than age.
> Training and promotion opportunities may not go your way if you’re older. They may be offered to younger staff
Again with the hand-wavey "may not go your way...may be offered," but I don't accept the premise anyway. In my experience training is allocated based on how enthusiastically someone wants to get training, and how willing they are to follow-up and ask about funding, getting time on the work schedule, etc. If your attitude is "I know everything I need to know to get my job done," the company is unlikely to go out of their way to spend thousands on training you.
I've seen the "f you, I know everything I need to" attitude from 27 year old jerks, and I've seen 60-something programmers tearing through the framework du jour without any trouble. It has nothing to do with stagnation and everything to do with willingness to learn, willingness to listen, willing to do something new, and whether or not you think everyone has something they could teach you.
The most dreadful thing in this industry to me is this: how many years of experience do you have?
The truth is that the difference between 30 years and 5 years of experience in a particular field can be as big as between 1 and 5. I just want to ask, does anyone in the industry really care about this fact? Does it matter to any company out there? Have you ever seen a job posting that has say 20+ years of experience as a minimum?
As someone with 30+ years in the industry I'm constantly worried that nobody really really needs a coder with so much under their belt anymore. That nobody sees the value in a smaller codebase with fewer bugs and more minimalist and robust architectural solutions.
Dear industry (apart from some maybe very specific niches such as OS kernels, compilers and such), do you really care about the old experienced devs?
1
2
3
4
5+
The truth is that the difference between 30 years and 5 years of experience in a particular field can be as big as between 1 and 5. I just want to ask, does anyone in the industry really care about this fact? Does it matter to any company out there? Have you ever seen a job posting that has say 20+ years of experience as a minimum?
As someone with 30+ years in the industry I'm constantly worried that nobody really really needs a coder with so much under their belt anymore. That nobody sees the value in a smaller codebase with fewer bugs and more minimalist and robust architectural solutions.
Dear industry (apart from some maybe very specific niches such as OS kernels, compilers and such), do you really care about the old experienced devs?
If you have more than 5 years of experience, you should know the industry and not be paying much attention to formal job postings.
Similarly, companies do not typically hire for those positions through public job postings.
Similarly, companies do not typically hire for those positions through public job postings.
Wow, no bites in 13 hours, so I'll bite: If not job postings, where are these mystical jobs offered? And, don't just say "networking" as if that completely describes the process.
I've been in the business for over 20 years and have always gotten my jobs from public postings or recruiters reaching out, who inevitably point me to the public posting as part of the process. I'm unaware of these other Secret Squirrel channels for getting jobs, despite people always telling me they totally definitely exist!
I've been in the business for over 20 years and have always gotten my jobs from public postings or recruiters reaching out, who inevitably point me to the public posting as part of the process. I'm unaware of these other Secret Squirrel channels for getting jobs, despite people always telling me they totally definitely exist!
Nobody really needs someone with 30 years of general experience because each such person is unique, impossible to completely replace. If you have the level of expertise that comes from real understanding of six different fields attained from five years of good work in them you might literally be the only person with that combination of skills. There are definitely under a 1,000 of you. If you have 30 years of experience but maybe five of real learning then you’re presumably competent but you’re not super special, just competent and known to be competent. After 30 years in the same field you could be one of those people with serious deep expertise. Those people are valuable but the market is thin. You need to make your skills known so work finds you through your network, or you need to become a consultant in spirit if not fact and sell. Loudly trumpet your expertise.
I don't think there's many technologies that are 30 years old that are still relevant today. Most programming languages themselves are younger than that: Python 1991, Java 1996, C# 2002, go 2012.
C++ and COBOL are ancient enough but niche.
If we look at tools/frameworks, the story is even worse because they were obviously created later (plus some time to gain traction).
I think the industry will slow down and stabilize over the next 20 years. It will be fragmented in different area of expertise, but there won't be another 10 new languages or another internet revolution.
C++ and COBOL are ancient enough but niche.
If we look at tools/frameworks, the story is even worse because they were obviously created later (plus some time to gain traction).
I think the industry will slow down and stabilize over the next 20 years. It will be fragmented in different area of expertise, but there won't be another 10 new languages or another internet revolution.
I’ve only ever experienced salary-ism which is just a side effect of being in the industry for so long.
The issue with getting decent reviews and salary bumps is that eventually you’re making more money than many people are willing to take on.
I’m 57 and working with a lot of people my age. We’ve hired a lot of older people.
The issue with getting decent reviews and salary bumps is that eventually you’re making more money than many people are willing to take on.
I’m 57 and working with a lot of people my age. We’ve hired a lot of older people.
Do you know of anywhere that hires more older people that would also consider hiring some younger, junior candidates as well? I don't know about other younger developers but personally I'd rather work with older, experienced developers, I think that would be of great benefit to my development.
My company has a program specifically designed to bring in new blood probably because there are so many older folks.
Part of it involves spending time with different teams to get a feel for the various things that are going on. How well it works in practice I can’t say. Like everything else it depends on the quality of the teams you’re on and the nature of the work they’re doing.
There's definitely a salary ceiling in software. My first few years in the industry, I made double digit percentage increases by changing jobs. The next few years were more like 5-6% to change jobs. Nowadays, I don't expect any increase at all--you max out and every company you look at coincidentally offers about the same amount. Unless you go into management or are lucky enough to get one of those one-in-a-thousand nosebleed FAANG offers, you're plateaued around 10-15 years into your career.
I'm 51 and I don't think I have ever experienced ageism in IT. I just switched to a new area (big data) one year ago for instance and had no problem finding a job. Maybe it's because I live in Europe and in the USA things are different, who knows.
But there is one thing though that can make switching jobs more difficult for senior developers, and that is the salary. Chances are that when you're older you are supporting kids, a house, or you just have become used to a higher standard of living. So you will probably look for a higher salary in a new job and yes, that limits your opportunities.
But there is one thing though that can make switching jobs more difficult for senior developers, and that is the salary. Chances are that when you're older you are supporting kids, a house, or you just have become used to a higher standard of living. So you will probably look for a higher salary in a new job and yes, that limits your opportunities.
I'm 37 I thought I was too old but I decided to start all over again. Took some courses from Coursera about Deep Learning and last month started competing in kaggle and similar competitions sites. I earned 7k dollars but the most important is that I'm learning a lot like if I was in the university again, I think I'm learning even faster.
I'm 36 and have not once experienced blatant ageism. I keep my skills current and have pivoted my career many times when things got less interesting or I could tell the market was falling off. I went sysadmin>neteng>syseng>SRE and will have to pivot in 4-5 years again, probably, once some other culture-breaker has hit distributed systems for the 3rd time in my career.
Now, I don't have kids so you might go "hey you've got so much free time" - I'm also a 36yo engineer with 10+ years of experience. Most of the positions I take nowadays allow me AMPLE time (as in months) to do research and learn new systems before deploying them to production. I almost never study or work at home these days. A LOT less than in my 20s when I worked in startups.
I just went through a few months of interviewing, what did every company want out of me at this "age" (experience)? They wanted a strong desire to mentor and cultivate teams. I've worked with a lot of older engineers who aren't happy to do this, and that's a huge problem and something majorly wrong and undesirable in tech.
FWIW I will not ever consider the 30s or 40s old. I am working with a lot more 23-25yo developers now and feel like half of my skillset is bridging communication between zoomers and gen-x bosses. They love learning and its incredibly rewarding helping them grow their careers - something that I never got help with when I started in the toxic tech world of ~2008.
I'm a lead/staff IC, not a manager, fwiw.
Now, I don't have kids so you might go "hey you've got so much free time" - I'm also a 36yo engineer with 10+ years of experience. Most of the positions I take nowadays allow me AMPLE time (as in months) to do research and learn new systems before deploying them to production. I almost never study or work at home these days. A LOT less than in my 20s when I worked in startups.
I just went through a few months of interviewing, what did every company want out of me at this "age" (experience)? They wanted a strong desire to mentor and cultivate teams. I've worked with a lot of older engineers who aren't happy to do this, and that's a huge problem and something majorly wrong and undesirable in tech.
FWIW I will not ever consider the 30s or 40s old. I am working with a lot more 23-25yo developers now and feel like half of my skillset is bridging communication between zoomers and gen-x bosses. They love learning and its incredibly rewarding helping them grow their careers - something that I never got help with when I started in the toxic tech world of ~2008.
I'm a lead/staff IC, not a manager, fwiw.
Had the opposite experience in London and I am not even 36 yet.
Could quote almost 10 companies that cancelled the interview in early stage or didn't interview at all, saying too much experience and worry I'd leave after 6 months for a better company (higher pay).
Gave up on interviewing for startups and medium companies. Get a job in a top tier company or starve to death. (Top tier is mostly finance in London because FAANG don't have big offices here).
Could quote almost 10 companies that cancelled the interview in early stage or didn't interview at all, saying too much experience and worry I'd leave after 6 months for a better company (higher pay).
Gave up on interviewing for startups and medium companies. Get a job in a top tier company or starve to death. (Top tier is mostly finance in London because FAANG don't have big offices here).
Do you list every single position on your CV, like is it multiple pages with 15+ years on it? I believe CVs are like that whereas my resume is a 1 pager that only has my last decade of SUPER relevant experience listed; my last 3 SR Eng roles.
I could submit a 3 page resume with all of my sysadmin, etc jobs on it but then I would definitely be aging myself, even worse because my career actually started when I was 16 (I only mention this in casual interviews). If I started back then it'd probably look like I was 42+ on paper but at that point it's kind of more of a "why is this person listing irrelevant skills from 2005?"
Unfortunately I think that's the expectation with CVs? The ones I've seen look like they're describing the persons entire life to me.
I could submit a 3 page resume with all of my sysadmin, etc jobs on it but then I would definitely be aging myself, even worse because my career actually started when I was 16 (I only mention this in casual interviews). If I started back then it'd probably look like I was 42+ on paper but at that point it's kind of more of a "why is this person listing irrelevant skills from 2005?"
Unfortunately I think that's the expectation with CVs? The ones I've seen look like they're describing the persons entire life to me.
One page both sides. Only list the most relevant positions.
I had to cut out positions very early on in my career because there were way too many to fit. I did some short contracting back in the days, imagine 5 jobs over less than 5 years.
Also removed all the dates for degrees and all the locations. (London recruiters have a bad habit to ignore experience outside London).
I had to cut out positions very early on in my career because there were way too many to fit. I did some short contracting back in the days, imagine 5 jobs over less than 5 years.
Also removed all the dates for degrees and all the locations. (London recruiters have a bad habit to ignore experience outside London).
> Could quote almost 10 companies that cancelled the interview in early stage or didn't interview at all, saying too much experience and worry I'd leave after 6 months for a better company (higher pay).
This isn't ageism. People do leave jobs they're underqualified for at a much higher rate. And if the salary band for a given job is £50-75k and you require £85k then why would they interview?
This isn't ageism. People do leave jobs they're underqualified for at a much higher rate. And if the salary band for a given job is £50-75k and you require £85k then why would they interview?
The cheapest companies in London pay around 90-100k base, which is quite respectable. Your concern would be valid if the pay was really low but it is not. There are few companies that will significantly top that.
Sure, an employee might leave to Google for the money... if only Google had an office in London and they could get an interview and pass. It's not like it's going to invariably happen over the next 6 months. It's far fetched from the company to assume that.
In the meantime the candidate is out of a job because companies refuse to hire them (I don't know if that's ageism but that's certainly something) and the company gets no work done because it's understaffed.
Sure, an employee might leave to Google for the money... if only Google had an office in London and they could get an interview and pass. It's not like it's going to invariably happen over the next 6 months. It's far fetched from the company to assume that.
In the meantime the candidate is out of a job because companies refuse to hire them (I don't know if that's ageism but that's certainly something) and the company gets no work done because it's understaffed.
My point wasn't about the pay figure exactly, just that if you want more money than they want to pay, that's not ageism it's wanting more money than a position is worth to someone.
> companies refuse to hire them (I don't know if that's ageism but that's certainly something)
What is it then? Nobody is owed a job as a human right, and companies are under no obligation to hire a specific person.
> companies refuse to hire them (I don't know if that's ageism but that's certainly something)
What is it then? Nobody is owed a job as a human right, and companies are under no obligation to hire a specific person.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I think this “They wanted a strong desire to mentor and cultivate teams” is a fantastic insight!
31 here. I almost did the same. I was working as fullstack developer + infrastructure engineer on AWS and I have recently pivoted to deep learning field and now working for a nlp product at this moment.
I don’t want to be a downer but don’t you think it’s just way easier to learn now because we have so many great resources available to us?
We do, but there's more surface area to cover because job requirements have also gone up and technology is more complex. Interviewing for tech has also branched off into its own skill with an industry that promotes its own existence.
Of course and even more for me that I’m in Latin America and now I can easily access to resources from US and Europe
I don't deny ageism existing. It surely does.
But I regularly see "I want to reboot my career" mixed into the conversation and I wonder if the industry just doesn't value the decades of generalized experience a veteran brings to a rebooted career.
And if they don't value that, why not focus on the hungry 22 year olds who are easier to fool into focusing on work rather than life or family?
I think this is truly boneheaded, but that wouldn't surprise me...
But I regularly see "I want to reboot my career" mixed into the conversation and I wonder if the industry just doesn't value the decades of generalized experience a veteran brings to a rebooted career.
And if they don't value that, why not focus on the hungry 22 year olds who are easier to fool into focusing on work rather than life or family?
I think this is truly boneheaded, but that wouldn't surprise me...
Young people are mainly more easily influenced.
It's far easier to convince a young person without a family nor passion in life to work for 12 hours a day for little money rather than experienced people.
It's also far easier to sell hyped, useless technological solutions to young, non-experienced people who don't understand the problem to solve.
I say this as a young developer who took too much time to recover from the marketing hype maintained by money seeking vendors.
It's far easier to convince a young person without a family nor passion in life to work for 12 hours a day for little money rather than experienced people.
It's also far easier to sell hyped, useless technological solutions to young, non-experienced people who don't understand the problem to solve.
I say this as a young developer who took too much time to recover from the marketing hype maintained by money seeking vendors.
[deleted]
Where the hell are all of these
magical companies that hire only young people? I'm 23 with an extensive project list & written tutorials,a completed CompSci degree, and a half completed dual degree in electrical engineering & compEng, yet I can't get hired even when I pass an algorithm test with 30 minutes remaining.
However a mid 30s dev friend of mine this year juggled 3 companies into getting him a nice salary and told me "Yeah, nobody takes you seriously until you're 30".
However a mid 30s dev friend of mine this year juggled 3 companies into getting him a nice salary and told me "Yeah, nobody takes you seriously until you're 30".
It has been the opposite experience for me in continental Europe.
In Europe the older you are, the better paid you are.
every employer claims to reward skills but does nothing of the sort. the practical way to get paid more is just to be older.
Can you elaborate? Experience is preferred?
I could not get a job because I was considered too young.
I'm 61. Been paid to write software for 42 years. I make it a point to add a new technology with every project. Currently that's Vuejs. Next one will be Blazor based, I think. It's the way I keep my skills up to date and myself hireable. I'll never retire cause even if I stopped working for others, I'd still be writing code for myself.
> Not every story on Medium is free, like this one. Become a member to get unlimited access and support the voices you want to hear more from.
Yeah
Yeah
"Young people are just smarter." - Mark Zuckerberg
Spoken like a naive individual without much in the way of life experience. Keep taking the pills, Mark.
Onto more positive points, whilst I have no doubt that ageism exists in our industry, there are also companies with a more enlightened view of age and experience.
I tend to prefer hiring people with more experience, in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, when I can. I particularly like those who've worked for a variety of different companies during their careers (avoids institutionalisation).
Some of the benefits of more experienced staff:
- Tend to take a more rounded view of what they're working on, and find it easier to see different perspectives
- Related to this they seem better able to focus on delivering business and customer value
- Again, related: less interested in tech for tech's sake, and less prone to chasing fads
- Further, related: less idealistic, more pragmatic
- Better social skills; easier to get along with
- Less emotional: more mature and settled
- Better able to manage stress and work/life balance
- Lower sense of entitlement
- Have often picked up mentoring and coaching skills that can help develop others
Of course, there are always exceptions for both experienced and inexperienced staff (and we're very fortunate/have been very careful about our less experienced hires), but these are benefits I've often observed.
As I've already implied, we hire people at all levels of experience (with the exception, so far, of fresh grads), but having a good number of experienced staff is I think one of the great strengths of our team, and I view our senior staff as our greatest asset. They're very good, for example, at helping to develop less experienced team members, or wrangling difficult and sensitive issues.
(Note that I haven't talked much about technical skills here. Partly this is because we work with a deliberately boring stack - I want us to build great, cutting edge products with solid, reliable, boring tech, not be constantly hindered from building by the problems of the bleeding edge. Mostly it's because, having had to pick up different languages and technologies over the years, and having worked with plenty of developers who've done the same, I don't generally regard specific tech skills as that important. We use SQL Server, for example. But if you've worked with any relational database for any decent length of time during your career you'll get on fine with it, regardless of whether that's Postgres, Oracle, or even MySQL or SQLite. Likewise it's not that hard to learn to query MongoDB or ElasticSearch, although the latter is a bit nuts, even though the syntax is different to SQL. It's not different enough to get in a tizzy about, and I really wish recruiters would wise up to this. Some have, most haven't, in my experience.)
Spoken like a naive individual without much in the way of life experience. Keep taking the pills, Mark.
Onto more positive points, whilst I have no doubt that ageism exists in our industry, there are also companies with a more enlightened view of age and experience.
I tend to prefer hiring people with more experience, in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, when I can. I particularly like those who've worked for a variety of different companies during their careers (avoids institutionalisation).
Some of the benefits of more experienced staff:
- Tend to take a more rounded view of what they're working on, and find it easier to see different perspectives
- Related to this they seem better able to focus on delivering business and customer value
- Again, related: less interested in tech for tech's sake, and less prone to chasing fads
- Further, related: less idealistic, more pragmatic
- Better social skills; easier to get along with
- Less emotional: more mature and settled
- Better able to manage stress and work/life balance
- Lower sense of entitlement
- Have often picked up mentoring and coaching skills that can help develop others
Of course, there are always exceptions for both experienced and inexperienced staff (and we're very fortunate/have been very careful about our less experienced hires), but these are benefits I've often observed.
As I've already implied, we hire people at all levels of experience (with the exception, so far, of fresh grads), but having a good number of experienced staff is I think one of the great strengths of our team, and I view our senior staff as our greatest asset. They're very good, for example, at helping to develop less experienced team members, or wrangling difficult and sensitive issues.
(Note that I haven't talked much about technical skills here. Partly this is because we work with a deliberately boring stack - I want us to build great, cutting edge products with solid, reliable, boring tech, not be constantly hindered from building by the problems of the bleeding edge. Mostly it's because, having had to pick up different languages and technologies over the years, and having worked with plenty of developers who've done the same, I don't generally regard specific tech skills as that important. We use SQL Server, for example. But if you've worked with any relational database for any decent length of time during your career you'll get on fine with it, regardless of whether that's Postgres, Oracle, or even MySQL or SQLite. Likewise it's not that hard to learn to query MongoDB or ElasticSearch, although the latter is a bit nuts, even though the syntax is different to SQL. It's not different enough to get in a tizzy about, and I really wish recruiters would wise up to this. Some have, most haven't, in my experience.)
> "Young people are just smarter." - Mark Zuckerberg
At the advanced age of 36 he should be replaced by someone younger, stat!
At the advanced age of 36 he should be replaced by someone younger, stat!
> I tend to prefer hiring people with more experience, in their 30s, 40s, and 50s
> I particularly like those who've worked for a variety of different companies during their careers
I hope you see how these are two very conflicting ideals. Are you assuming that other companies will train your staff for you?
> I particularly like those who've worked for a variety of different companies during their careers
I hope you see how these are two very conflicting ideals. Are you assuming that other companies will train your staff for you?
>Are you assuming that other companies will train your staff for you?
Hmm... you are talking it out of context...
Hmm... you are talking it out of context...
What are you talking about? Different companies have different cultures and ways of working. I'm talking about experienced staff who bring a wide range of perspectives as opposed to those who have perhaps become institutionalised because they've only worked at one company for the last 20 years. As such I can't see any conflict between the two statements I made above which, by the way, are just that: statements of preference, not ideals.
Mark Zuckerberg actually said "young people are smarter"? So, he's going to step down now?! Good news.
FTFA: I love this:
"Mark Zuckerberg was quoted as saying: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter.” "
b/c it crystallizes, for all time and for all to see, how wrong Mark Zuckerberg can be.
"Mark Zuckerberg was quoted as saying: “I want to stress the importance of being young and technical. Young people are just smarter.” "
b/c it crystallizes, for all time and for all to see, how wrong Mark Zuckerberg can be.
Thanks everyone for a good open discussion on this subject. Much appreciated, and I hope you don't suffer ageism. There should be enough opportunities for all of us.
One strategy is to find a company filled with older workers so you're younger. They're out there but usually not web type companies in my experience.
How do they control for the large portion of the older developer demographic who have retired early and/or changed careers?
anecdote: after 10y as a software engineer I came back to the academy to accomplish a PhD. Recently, I applied to a research intern position at Facebook and got the response:
"we only get people with less than 6 years experience for this position"
(My inside referrer got the response, as a job applicant I got not reponse)
"we only get people with less than 6 years experience for this position"
(My inside referrer got the response, as a job applicant I got not reponse)
Ageism is the only prejudice I can think of that no one is immune to. Are there others you can think of?
Sexism. Maybe even racism at some level.
Really I think prejudices operate all the time in all sorts of ways. I say that not to be dismissive — I think all forms of them are a problem — but I think some of them rise to a certain level of societal awareness because of the numbers of people affected.
Really I think prejudices operate all the time in all sorts of ways. I say that not to be dismissive — I think all forms of them are a problem — but I think some of them rise to a certain level of societal awareness because of the numbers of people affected.
Is ageism a thing or is it just the fact that in every industry there is a push to move up the ladder?
You are just not supposed to be doing grunt work at 50. This is true of all professions. People below you don't want you to be occupying their spot, and people above you have a hard time with a guy who is senior to them in age and experience.
[deleted]
Aren't we all forgetting the elaphant in the room? Older workers usually make more and therefore have higher salary demands when seeking new opportunities. With the advent of each new software language, component library/package and WYSIWYG development environment younger software developers actually require less training & expertise to be productive sooner. Companies know this and would rather hire 2-3 younger engineers for the same price as one senior resource.
This looks like ageism on the surface but in reality it's the economics of plain old capitalism at work with Moore's Law accelerated the pace of automation.
This looks like ageism on the surface but in reality it's the economics of plain old capitalism at work with Moore's Law accelerated the pace of automation.
> "a prejudice that older people simply can’t learn as well as younger people"
This prejudice happens to be true.
https://www.sciencealert.com/this-is-the-age-you-reach-peak-...
I'm an older software developer, and I do not have the same ability to learn new things as I did when I was young. I do have more experience and, with it, a better sense of what matters and what doesn't, so I waste less time on the stuff that doesn't.
That is, however, a more subjective attribute and, thus, I don't blame large companies for not being able to evaluate it. They are inherently volume-based and thus focused on more obvious and measurable attributes that directly (though imperfectly) map to developer productivity.
As the kids say: it is what it is. If you want to make increasing amounts of money for a long time, become a banker or a doctor. I like writing code.
This prejudice happens to be true.
https://www.sciencealert.com/this-is-the-age-you-reach-peak-...
I'm an older software developer, and I do not have the same ability to learn new things as I did when I was young. I do have more experience and, with it, a better sense of what matters and what doesn't, so I waste less time on the stuff that doesn't.
That is, however, a more subjective attribute and, thus, I don't blame large companies for not being able to evaluate it. They are inherently volume-based and thus focused on more obvious and measurable attributes that directly (though imperfectly) map to developer productivity.
As the kids say: it is what it is. If you want to make increasing amounts of money for a long time, become a banker or a doctor. I like writing code.
I dislike this typical response, because it comes close to blaming the victim, and indeed many people do blame the victims of ageism, attributing stereotypical attitudes to them. Imagine claiming "skills can beat racism" or "skills can beat sexism". No, nothing beats discrimination, because it was never based on the existence or absence of skills. Rather, prejudiced people take one look at you, see your gray hair, and make assumptions about you, and you can't beat your hair color any more than you can beat your skin color.
Well, you could try to dye your hair and get plastic surgery, but again that has nothing to do with skills.