PhD gets 5x increase in postdoc interview invitations by just changing his name(twitter.com)
twitter.com
PhD gets 5x increase in postdoc interview invitations by just changing his name
https://twitter.com/Mohamad_IPS/status/1571214032937394176
121 comments
There was a similar post a few days ago where someone did this but instead of changing their name they changed their gender (female names got significantly more responses).
That post got flagged and this post is in the frontpage.
Interesting.
Academia is full of problems like these.
This only leads to resentment and a reinforcement of the idea that women have it on 'easy mode', which I don't think is caused by them in the first place.
One day I went to interview at SiB (https://www.sib.swiss/) as part of a cohort of 20 shortlisted from all over the world. Women on our cohort were treated significantly better, with a couple weird professors were behind them all the time. Everyone noticed that (even other girls) and we actually, explicitly, touched on that subject on our free time.
I recall there was one dinner by the end of that trip and these guys made one particular girl sit in between them, which was kind of awkward as students were all sitting together in a different part of the table. One of these guys was all over the girl, to clarify: not touching her, but physically very close all the time and asking a lot of trivial questions one after the other (do you like food XXXX? have you been to XXXX? what do you think of XXXX?), the girl was visibly uncomfortable but what was she supposed to do? We were all about 20yo at that time, at that age (also a newgrad) you just go with the flow. Plenty of people take advantage of that.
Not implying anything but, as anecdata, that girl got accepted into the program under the supervision of that particular guy. I hope she had a comfortable PhD stay and I mean that with all honesty.
This only leads to resentment and a reinforcement of the idea that women have it on 'easy mode', which I don't think is caused by them in the first place.
One day I went to interview at SiB (https://www.sib.swiss/) as part of a cohort of 20 shortlisted from all over the world. Women on our cohort were treated significantly better, with a couple weird professors were behind them all the time. Everyone noticed that (even other girls) and we actually, explicitly, touched on that subject on our free time.
I recall there was one dinner by the end of that trip and these guys made one particular girl sit in between them, which was kind of awkward as students were all sitting together in a different part of the table. One of these guys was all over the girl, to clarify: not touching her, but physically very close all the time and asking a lot of trivial questions one after the other (do you like food XXXX? have you been to XXXX? what do you think of XXXX?), the girl was visibly uncomfortable but what was she supposed to do? We were all about 20yo at that time, at that age (also a newgrad) you just go with the flow. Plenty of people take advantage of that.
Not implying anything but, as anecdata, that girl got accepted into the program under the supervision of that particular guy. I hope she had a comfortable PhD stay and I mean that with all honesty.
It's a little suspect that this reddit post from 5 days ago is almost the same as the linked tweet, but the premise is kind of switched up.
23 hours ago from the linked Twitter: "So I did an experiment, I am looking for a postdoctoral position and decided to check to what extent racism in science could be. I took my CV and changed the name to a more western one. I'd send it out with my real name, then a few days later (or before) with the western name."
5 days ago on this linked Reddit: "So I did an experiment, I work in CS and decided to test what gender bias is. So I took my CV and changed the name to a female name. I'd send it out with my real name, then a few days later (or a few days before) with a female name."
23 hours ago from the linked Twitter: "So I did an experiment, I am looking for a postdoctoral position and decided to check to what extent racism in science could be. I took my CV and changed the name to a more western one. I'd send it out with my real name, then a few days later (or before) with the western name."
5 days ago on this linked Reddit: "So I did an experiment, I work in CS and decided to test what gender bias is. So I took my CV and changed the name to a female name. I'd send it out with my real name, then a few days later (or a few days before) with a female name."
He acknowledged his wording was taken directly from the story, then immediately deleted his acknowledgment: https://twitter.com/tracewoodgrains/status/15716306207442452...
I submitted this story, but I agree the wording is very suspicious.
I haven't flagged either that post or this one, but I understand why people do. Both present useless anecdotes that tell us nothing about whether or not a systemic problem exists.
Honestly, they tell us even less, because tons of these anecdotes are simply fabricated.
Not commenting on that post because I didn’t see it but just noting. Some people support affirmative action. There are arguments that can be used that are somewhat convincing. Correcting generational feedback loops is hard and may require more than just blind indifference. Personally I think affirmative action can go too far, but it is very much a live issue in politics for good reason. Meanwhile there aren’t many who would say discrimination against people from the Middle East is good
Well, there's a difference between supporting something, and trying to actively shut down any discussion revealing arguments against it.
The best solutions are always compromises born in debates between disagreeing sides. With one side endlessly silencing anything that doesn't go with their narrative, we won't see that happening anymore.
The best solutions are always compromises born in debates between disagreeing sides. With one side endlessly silencing anything that doesn't go with their narrative, we won't see that happening anymore.
> Meanwhile there aren’t many who would say discrimination against
> people from the Middle East is good
> You assumed that the poster was from the Middle East by the name Mohammed.
His Twitter profile said immigrant and had the flag of Lebanon after.
His Twitter profile said immigrant and had the flag of Lebanon after.
In addition to what pseudalopex said I was figuring the thing to think about was what the people evaluating him would assume, not anything true or false about him. Just like say a trans man may still experience sexism aimed at women
Any chance you can find the link to the dead post? I am curious to see it.
Can't find the hackernews post (probably got removed) but it was a link to this reddit post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xcrv6k/i_sent_1...
In general, I do not think flagged posts get removed (I have access to multiple such posts). But they probably are not listed in the search indices, only available with a direct link (e.g. from your comment history if you commented there).
If you are past a modest karma speedbump, anyone can hit flag. It right next to the upvote button.
Those articles are not [dead] but the algorithm penalizes them when ranking the front page.
Those articles are not [dead] but the algorithm penalizes them when ranking the front page.
I didn't comment.
Archived here: https://archive.ph/2j8Fw
The post referenced:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32880510
As the comments show, the submission had other issues.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32880510
As the comments show, the submission had other issues.
This is not the post I was referencing. It was a link to this reddit post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xcrv6k/i_sent_1...
[deleted]
Do you know why the other post was flagged?
Flagging is done by the community. Anyone with the karma can hit the flag button.
It was a reddit thread with a baity title on a guaranteed flamewar topic.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32823355
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32823355
Maybe if posts like that were not flagged, the topic would be less of a flamewar
I don't think that's how flamewars work.
[deleted]
Context on why the Twitter thread was deleted: https://twitter.com/tracewoodgrains/status/15716489346947563...
He nuked his account from orbit after confirming he copied from a reddit thread in response to closer scrutiny. Without extensive documentation of a sort that seems unlikely now, it seems best to treat this whole story as a fabrication.
He nuked his account from orbit after confirming he copied from a reddit thread in response to closer scrutiny. Without extensive documentation of a sort that seems unlikely now, it seems best to treat this whole story as a fabrication.
When I asked the author of the viral thread, he said he took the wording directly from a reddit thread a few days ago, then deleted his acknowledgment, hid my question, and locked down further replies within minutes. Something is very off about this story. https://twitter.com/tracewoodgrains/status/15716306207442452...
Before a knee jerk response of unconscious bias, which I’m in no way denying, it is more important to know how this research was conducted. What about the publications and references? It’s not like the job is flipping burgers - postdoctoral positions are extremely specific and people tend to know each other within a couple of hops on their social network.
Wouldn't that in all cases benefit the real CV over the fake one? (because if you started to look up the fake person you'd find less useful results than for the real name, which would turn up real publications)
No.
You’d find more information on the real person.
But the news might be bad.
You’d find more information on the real person.
But the news might be bad.
Indeed it is not a rigours experiment by any stretch of the imagination. But the difference in scale in response (and the fact his profile looks earnest) we have an interesting data point on bias in academia.
Well, apparently we don't have an interesting data point since this "experiment" seems likely to be a fabrication - https://tracingwoodgrains.substack.com/p/viral-racism-in-aca...
I wouldn't say that all postdocs are extremely specific in a field like plant biology. You might require the postdoc to be knowledgable of certain lab practices only for example.
In fact, in many cases it is very unlikely that you will find a postdoc that has done work in a cutting-edge niche area that a professor is interested in, so the pool of candidates even globally is not sufficient. Your best hope is to find a postdoc in an adjacent area who you can train up on what you are doing.
In fact, in many cases it is very unlikely that you will find a postdoc that has done work in a cutting-edge niche area that a professor is interested in, so the pool of candidates even globally is not sufficient. Your best hope is to find a postdoc in an adjacent area who you can train up on what you are doing.
There was Dutch PhD research done not so long ago.
https://www.advalvas.vu.nl/nieuws/met-een-arabische-naam-heb...
Translation of the relevant part:
With an Arabic name you have less chance of a job
Employers still discriminate on a large scale, according to the dissertation of the Utrecht sociologist Lieselotte Blommaert. She put more than six hundred resumes online on websites where employers look for personnel, half were posted by fictitious natives, the other half by fictitious immigrant applicants.
Highly educated people discriminate less
The CV of Joris or Jan appears to be requested by employers fifty percent more often than the CV of Aicha or Amir. Once the resumes have been viewed, native applicants appear to have a 60% higher chance of being invited for an interview. “It doesn't matter what kind of education people have,” says Blommaert. “It happens to immigrants regardless of their gender, education level or age.” Discrimination is not always malicious, emphasizes Blommaert. “The research shows that unconscious processes also have an influence. When a lot of application letters come in, people still select intuitively.” For example, employers who have more positive contact with immigrants discriminate less, as do women. Also striking: people with a higher education are less inclined to discriminate.
https://www.advalvas.vu.nl/nieuws/met-een-arabische-naam-heb...
Translation of the relevant part:
With an Arabic name you have less chance of a job
Employers still discriminate on a large scale, according to the dissertation of the Utrecht sociologist Lieselotte Blommaert. She put more than six hundred resumes online on websites where employers look for personnel, half were posted by fictitious natives, the other half by fictitious immigrant applicants.
Highly educated people discriminate less
The CV of Joris or Jan appears to be requested by employers fifty percent more often than the CV of Aicha or Amir. Once the resumes have been viewed, native applicants appear to have a 60% higher chance of being invited for an interview. “It doesn't matter what kind of education people have,” says Blommaert. “It happens to immigrants regardless of their gender, education level or age.” Discrimination is not always malicious, emphasizes Blommaert. “The research shows that unconscious processes also have an influence. When a lot of application letters come in, people still select intuitively.” For example, employers who have more positive contact with immigrants discriminate less, as do women. Also striking: people with a higher education are less inclined to discriminate.
A lot of people are debating if this post is legit. I can't make any definite statements, but an 87% response rate for any job application is extremely high.
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The crazy thing is he says 54 people were willing to accept a fellowship from his Western name. How does that work, exactly? In his application he communicates that he also has a fellowship available that he could give to the people he is applying to? It doesn't make sense to me.
I don't mean to discredit the author of the tweet, but it's not a good idea to become outraged because of tweets that have no proof and no known methodology for their study.
Snapshot of the tweet since (at least for me) it seems to be private now:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220918142648/https://twitter.c...
https://web.archive.org/web/20220918142648/https://twitter.c...
It is still visible on Nitter instances (e.g. https://nitter.priv.pw/Mohamad_IPS/status/157121403293739417...)
>You’re unable to view this Tweet because this account owner limits who can view their Tweets.
From the comments here I can picture what the tweet was about, but considering how quickly it was made private I would be wary of trusting it too much.
From the comments here I can picture what the tweet was about, but considering how quickly it was made private I would be wary of trusting it too much.
Not a professor, but I used to be a lecturer and I still get some spam looking email application from foreign students. I am sure this is detrimental to real applicant.
I don't believe it. The change in response rate is far too large and in the opposite direction I would expect. It goes from "0 accept Mohammed" to "54% would accept a fellowship from Michael". I could not imagine a dumber result.
Do they not check the actual publication record? It shouldn't have worked at all with a fake name.
At the stage of shortlisting for the interview, a lot of people don't actually go out and check the paper, they just register it is published in a good journal, they might do a deep dive when preparing for the interview if at all.
Especially in a field like plant biology, papers probably have many authors, so even if you check the paper you might not pay attention to the author list (or he could have chosen a name that looks like one of the co-authors in some of his papers?)
Especially in a field like plant biology, papers probably have many authors, so even if you check the paper you might not pay attention to the author list (or he could have chosen a name that looks like one of the co-authors in some of his papers?)
Maybe the papers have names like M. Lastname, and M could be extrapolated as Mohamad or Michael...
nullifidian(1)
[deleted]
This makes no sense. If you change your name you loose all papers and citations in Google Scholar and other academic networks for example. It’s not an easy fix. Everyone looks at google scholar stats before interviewing.
"The results themselves were not surprising to me. I was more surprised to encounter harassment from researchers constantly advocating for equality, inclusion, and diversity."
If he's holding it high
He's telling a lie
If he's holding it high
He's telling a lie
- Steely DanWell, he was telling a lie.
I suppose this is a question of what do we value more? The independence of researchers to run their own show and hire who they want, or trying to make the academic playing field level for all?
How do you get rid of unconscious bias? I am assuming this wasn't malicious and they don't have a 'no foreign sounding names' qualification that they are filtering by, but our brain is a pattern matching machine and if an industry has an overwhelming number of one race/gender/orientation/whatever won't the brain just naturally bias towards that? Even though individuals say they would never be biased, the subconscious element of it seems inevitable.
Cynical question: are there 200+ post doc positions for someone to apply to at one point where their experience and publications are actually relevant?
How many positions is "on the differentiation of the leaf morpho-physiological traits between native and non-native plants on a Mediterranean island (Mallorca)" actually relevant to?
How many positions is "on the differentiation of the leaf morpho-physiological traits between native and non-native plants on a Mediterranean island (Mallorca)" actually relevant to?
Great point. This is exactly why no one should use their native names in job applications.
I work in finance, everyone i deal with who is Chinese has 2 names, a local one and an English one.
So you talk to people, they are introduced to westerners like me as James or Susan. Then you find out they are actually Bai Zhang but they are (understandably) tired of spelling it, getting it mis-pronounced or getting called Zhang Bai or similar.
I always thought that was very sensible.
I wonder if I should do the same? I would if I moved there.
So you talk to people, they are introduced to westerners like me as James or Susan. Then you find out they are actually Bai Zhang but they are (understandably) tired of spelling it, getting it mis-pronounced or getting called Zhang Bai or similar.
I always thought that was very sensible.
I wonder if I should do the same? I would if I moved there.
I visited Taiwan once and I was amused that several people were introduced to me as "Bob Wang" and "Jason Hsu" and such. Which I very much appreciate because I'm very bad at the tones, I especially can't do that downy-uppy one to save my life.
What was the western name? I assume the last name was also changed?
Seems really bad!
It's actually worst than I made out in the title. The responses he got under his original name were "almost all negative", not actual invitations. While almost all the response under his pseudonym were positive, some getting out of their way to pull him in.
I was curious what her percentage of overlap was between the 17 rejects and 54 accepts (or even the 87 responses) but that was not mentioned.
Everyone should be reminded that Twitter is not for posting actual science.
NOTE: Not sure why my auto-correct changed "the" to "her"
the post was entirely made up, as acknowledged by the author
stirlo(2)
zephrx1111(8)
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A good example of unconscious bias.
Sure, we can give the benefit of the doubt that most were unconscious about it. But the scale of difference in the response rate means that we also can't rule out that there were a minority who rejected him because they are basically racist.
I doubt it's so UNconscious. I know enough people that would straight up filter any muslim out from working with them.
It's also fun when you're Arab but not Muslim, and still get to deal with all the associated stereotypes...
It's also a hell lot more fun if you're Arab and atheist esp if you carry a religious name, you will be targeted all the time, and try to explain yourself and the associations that you might have with your background culture/religion.
A lot of fun, I tell you!
A lot of fun, I tell you!
Nothing unconscious with that bias, quite the opposite.
Western name: 100 samples, 87 responses, 54 positive.
Islamic name: 100 samples, 17 responses, 0 positive.
That's not a "good example of unconscious bias". Unless there's something else going on here (one or both of the names used in the experiment had some sort of reputation in the community already, or some other aspects of the CV were changed in the experiment), this is an absolutely stunning result and evidence of very conscious bigotry. This is a Black person applying for a job in 1920s Atlanta kind of result. In 2022 academia!
Islamic name: 100 samples, 17 responses, 0 positive.
That's not a "good example of unconscious bias". Unless there's something else going on here (one or both of the names used in the experiment had some sort of reputation in the community already, or some other aspects of the CV were changed in the experiment), this is an absolutely stunning result and evidence of very conscious bigotry. This is a Black person applying for a job in 1920s Atlanta kind of result. In 2022 academia!
I think it's much more likely a "This is a person making up a story on twitter" example.