Ask HN: Has anyone started over outside of tech?
462 comments
I used to work as a compiler engineer in the US for several years, before deciding to try starting over at the age of 30, in pure mathematics. I moved from the US to Paris in pursuit of an affordable mathematics education, and spent two years in a Masters program. I did have a considerable amount of savings, but it was very risky nevertheless: if it didn't work out, I'd be out-of-touch with compilers, and it would be hard to interview again, with a considerable career gap in my résumé.
For various reasons, mathematics didn't work out, and I was forced to interview again. Fortunately, I did manage to find a job as a compiler engineer again, and will be moving to London soon.
Now, the price of my adventure was quite steep. I uprooted my life when I moved from the US to Paris (especially because I didn't know French at the time), and the upcoming move to London will once again be difficult. I nearly halved my savings, by studying mathematics at my own expense, and will be back to earning the equivalent of my starting salary in the US.
However, I'm an adventurous person, and view my experience in positive light. I'd been wanting to study Jacob Lurie's books for the longest time, and I finally did it. I worked on a mathematical manuscript, which is now up on arXiv [1], and on a type theory project which has been submitted to LICS '23 [2]. I've had a good life in Paris, and my French is decent.
There's the larger philosophical question of "What is a life well-lived?", and for me, the answer is to pursue those things that you're truly passionate about, even if it doesn't work out.
[1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.09652
[2]: https://artagnon.com/logic/νType.pdf
For various reasons, mathematics didn't work out, and I was forced to interview again. Fortunately, I did manage to find a job as a compiler engineer again, and will be moving to London soon.
Now, the price of my adventure was quite steep. I uprooted my life when I moved from the US to Paris (especially because I didn't know French at the time), and the upcoming move to London will once again be difficult. I nearly halved my savings, by studying mathematics at my own expense, and will be back to earning the equivalent of my starting salary in the US.
However, I'm an adventurous person, and view my experience in positive light. I'd been wanting to study Jacob Lurie's books for the longest time, and I finally did it. I worked on a mathematical manuscript, which is now up on arXiv [1], and on a type theory project which has been submitted to LICS '23 [2]. I've had a good life in Paris, and my French is decent.
There's the larger philosophical question of "What is a life well-lived?", and for me, the answer is to pursue those things that you're truly passionate about, even if it doesn't work out.
[1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2211.09652
[2]: https://artagnon.com/logic/νType.pdf
I like this response very much. I'm in my mid-40s now and worked in many different sectors and positions before ending up in my current career. Even negative experiences, such as washing out as an air traffic controller after 2 years, have been beneficial in my current position. First, they provide some humility and empathy toward people who are struggling and, secondly, they give me alternative lenses toward viewing problems that I'd not have had otherwise. It's one thing to model a logistics problem and another to have driven a tractor trailer or worked as an air traffic controller and understand the practical implications of a solution.
> First, they provide some humility and empathy toward people who are struggling and, secondly, they give me alternative lenses toward viewing problems
... and third, they give me a kick in the backside when I feel whiny and complacent. "Oh, so you're pissed because your bonus was 2k instead of 2.5k? Well, if you were still washing dishes like back then, there would be no bonus at all..."
... and third, they give me a kick in the backside when I feel whiny and complacent. "Oh, so you're pissed because your bonus was 2k instead of 2.5k? Well, if you were still washing dishes like back then, there would be no bonus at all..."
Sounds like an interesting path you’ve taken. Do you have any memoirs or blog post about it?
Thats a good question, and no, I haven't written them up yet. I probably would title it "Adventures in ADHD". I grew up in a rural region and so ended up in university for agricultural science, but midway through my second year I was accepted into the Air Traffic Control school.
My best friend was driving long-haul tractor trailers across the USA and since I had a half year waiting for my ATC school to start I went to truck driving school and got my license so I could team drive with him for a bit.
After graduating ATC school and training on site for a year I was unable to meet the increasingly-difficult requirements to progress to the next level. After a while it was evident to both me and my instructors that I wasn't going to be happy even if I managed to pass those barriers as my brain wasn't wired for continuous focus (I hadn't yet been diagnosed with ADHD).
I applied to return to university and while waiting for my application I worked as a construction supervisor. I had spent my teens working for an industrial construction company and they were delighted to take me back on a temporary basis as they were very busy and the market for experienced supervisors was tight.
Finally got back into university but before I had graduated with an agricultural science degree one of my professors asked me to do a Masters graduate program with him. So I eventually graduated with an M.Sc. in agricultural economics and business. I worked as an analyst/lobbiest for five years but disliked reading government documents so took a position as a Market Analyst.
While working as a market analyst I discovered that Excel was a terrible tool for handling all but the simplest data, and in my search for a solution I encountered Python and it's data analytical ecosystem.
While I would never consider myself a programmer, I loved the increasingly complex solutions I could create with Python and, inevitably, ended up learning Linux servers so I could host my data, scrapers, and visualization web servers.
And now I'm wondering what's next, but since my kids are teenagers I'm pausing here for a bit until they move out to avoid unnecessarily disrupting their lives by uprooting them and moving away to a new position.
My best friend was driving long-haul tractor trailers across the USA and since I had a half year waiting for my ATC school to start I went to truck driving school and got my license so I could team drive with him for a bit.
After graduating ATC school and training on site for a year I was unable to meet the increasingly-difficult requirements to progress to the next level. After a while it was evident to both me and my instructors that I wasn't going to be happy even if I managed to pass those barriers as my brain wasn't wired for continuous focus (I hadn't yet been diagnosed with ADHD).
I applied to return to university and while waiting for my application I worked as a construction supervisor. I had spent my teens working for an industrial construction company and they were delighted to take me back on a temporary basis as they were very busy and the market for experienced supervisors was tight.
Finally got back into university but before I had graduated with an agricultural science degree one of my professors asked me to do a Masters graduate program with him. So I eventually graduated with an M.Sc. in agricultural economics and business. I worked as an analyst/lobbiest for five years but disliked reading government documents so took a position as a Market Analyst.
While working as a market analyst I discovered that Excel was a terrible tool for handling all but the simplest data, and in my search for a solution I encountered Python and it's data analytical ecosystem.
While I would never consider myself a programmer, I loved the increasingly complex solutions I could create with Python and, inevitably, ended up learning Linux servers so I could host my data, scrapers, and visualization web servers.
And now I'm wondering what's next, but since my kids are teenagers I'm pausing here for a bit until they move out to avoid unnecessarily disrupting their lives by uprooting them and moving away to a new position.
How was your ADHD diagnosed and how did you deal with it, I have just been given a questionnaire to by my psychologist to see if I have it.
That was similar to my experience. I had gone in for some counseling with a therapist and she forwarded me to a psychologist. After a few weeks he diagnosed it.
I'd love to say it was magically fixed by pills but it will always remain a struggle.
I'd love to say it was magically fixed by pills but it will always remain a struggle.
[deleted]
"If you don’t have [nice things], they can mean a great deal to you. When you do have them, they mean nothing.
To me, the unhappiest people in the world are those in the watering places, the international watering places, the south coast of France and Newport and Palm Springs and Palm Beach. Going to parties every night, playing golf every afternoon, then bridge. Drinking too much, talking too much, thinking too little. Retired. No purpose.
I know there are those who would totally disagree and say, ‘If I could just be a millionaire, that would be the most wonderful thing. If I could just not have to work every day. If I could be out fishing or hunting or playing golf or traveling, that would be the most wonderful life in the world.’
They don’t know life. Because what makes life mean something is purpose. A goal. The battle. The struggle. Even if you don’t win it."
-- Richard Nixon
To me, the unhappiest people in the world are those in the watering places, the international watering places, the south coast of France and Newport and Palm Springs and Palm Beach. Going to parties every night, playing golf every afternoon, then bridge. Drinking too much, talking too much, thinking too little. Retired. No purpose.
I know there are those who would totally disagree and say, ‘If I could just be a millionaire, that would be the most wonderful thing. If I could just not have to work every day. If I could be out fishing or hunting or playing golf or traveling, that would be the most wonderful life in the world.’
They don’t know life. Because what makes life mean something is purpose. A goal. The battle. The struggle. Even if you don’t win it."
-- Richard Nixon
Sounds good, doesn't actually mean much. It's just an extended version of "money doesn't buy happiness".
Money buys the ability to do whatever you want. It buys you the ability to take what would normally be big risks. It also buys you the ability to live a sad but otherwise comfortable life on a beach.
Money bought the person you responded to the ability to travel the world and study math, instead of worrying about getting food on the table or taking care of family.
Denying this is one of the most ignorant things people with money can do. It's the core of many problems in society, as it's directly related to the inability for many in power to empathize with people who are less fortunate.
Money buys the ability to do whatever you want. It buys you the ability to take what would normally be big risks. It also buys you the ability to live a sad but otherwise comfortable life on a beach.
Money bought the person you responded to the ability to travel the world and study math, instead of worrying about getting food on the table or taking care of family.
Denying this is one of the most ignorant things people with money can do. It's the core of many problems in society, as it's directly related to the inability for many in power to empathize with people who are less fortunate.
Agreed. Money buys choices, simple as. What you do with those choices, and how much meaning they bring to your life, is entirely up to you.
Or, to put it another way, everyone has choices, but the choices of the poor are all bad.
He’s not saying it’s good to be poor, he’s saying it’s not good to be stupidly rich.
I think a better way of putting it is "Money alone doesn't buy happiness." You can be happy with or without money, sure, but it absolutely helps. Either too much or too little of it can negatively affect your life satisfaction
Money doesn’t buy happiness, but for the things it does buy, it has no substitute.
This sounds like a total win. You studied what you wanted, didn't completely wipe out your finances, and successfully re-opened a door you thought may have been permanently closed. I view self actualization as a far more important component of a life well-lived than your savings balance.
but he's back to where he started in the beginning. I didn't sound like there was any more self actualization, after he went back.
Right, but these sort of narratives are rarely linear. In either case they would have been working compilers. At least in this version of events, they got to take a shot at a passion. They could also try again and have a roadmap and the courage to take a leap like that.
Or it opens up a third option that would not have been available otherwise.
Going on an adventure and finishing back where you started is not a bad result.
Probably not a fair judgement to make based on 4-5 short paragraphs in a HN comment.
Beautiful answer -- why would you just accumulate savings without using them for living an interesting life? It's worth taking risks. I'm considering doing something of the sort, probably much less risky actually.
>why would you just accumulate savings without using them for living an interesting life?
Having kids. Not that you have to do this with kids, but it is a reason
Having kids. Not that you have to do this with kids, but it is a reason
I don’t understand Americans POV on this subject.
Other than providing tutors and making sure their children are in the best secondary schools, I don’t understand the American obsession with paying for college.
The best way to prepare your child is to let them experience reality not coddle them.
- A luxury university diploma will not guarantee a good job
- There are other educational opportunities besides an expensive university
- Acquiring internships and work experience is far more valuable to establishing a network and getting your foot in the door
It is unrealistic to expect parents to go into crippling debt to pay for your entire time at a luxury university when a regular school and internships will suffice.
Other than providing tutors and making sure their children are in the best secondary schools, I don’t understand the American obsession with paying for college.
The best way to prepare your child is to let them experience reality not coddle them.
- A luxury university diploma will not guarantee a good job
- There are other educational opportunities besides an expensive university
- Acquiring internships and work experience is far more valuable to establishing a network and getting your foot in the door
It is unrealistic to expect parents to go into crippling debt to pay for your entire time at a luxury university when a regular school and internships will suffice.
Why are you talking about college? Having kids in general is very, very expensive. More so if you want to provide them with opportunities and activities as they grow up.
Having kids is not terribly expensive everywhere. Not all need to have super expensive hobbies either. I guess there is a huge regional difference - starting from cost daycare.
That may be, but I can only speak as to my reality. It is not actionable to me that in X country things are cheaper. I don’t live there and I’m not moving either.
Also, I’m not talking about “expensive” hobbies. Almost all sports need some sort of equipment and time investment from the parents. Summer camps for some parents are a necessity because they need child care during summer months. Vacations for kids are also expensive and people typically save all year long to take them. I could go on.
Also, I’m not talking about “expensive” hobbies. Almost all sports need some sort of equipment and time investment from the parents. Summer camps for some parents are a necessity because they need child care during summer months. Vacations for kids are also expensive and people typically save all year long to take them. I could go on.
Having kids isn't that cheap even outside the US.
I estimate I spend about €1000 more per month for having one baby. It's pretty significant in a country where the average employee earns €2000/month after tax (and a senior engineer is at €3500/month roughly).
I estimate I spend about €1000 more per month for having one baby. It's pretty significant in a country where the average employee earns €2000/month after tax (and a senior engineer is at €3500/month roughly).
Good preschool is $10k+. In large swaths of the country decent schools only exist where housing is prohibitively expensive. The combination of camp and afternoon care in the summer is thousands of dollars a month.
It all adds up and while you can get clothes at goodwill there are some expenses that are unavoidable and scale linearly with quality.
It all adds up and while you can get clothes at goodwill there are some expenses that are unavoidable and scale linearly with quality.
Holy smokes that is expensive.
In my country preschool is free and it’s all around good. I don’t think we ever had to use any summer care either. Kids are now 12 and 15… the only necessary thing that is more expensive is the house since it needs to fit more people but that is just about the size, not location dictated by a good school as such.
For us all expenses related to quality of life just scale linearly with headcount.
In my country preschool is free and it’s all around good. I don’t think we ever had to use any summer care either. Kids are now 12 and 15… the only necessary thing that is more expensive is the house since it needs to fit more people but that is just about the size, not location dictated by a good school as such.
For us all expenses related to quality of life just scale linearly with headcount.
I don't know what you think a "luxury" university is- even government run colleges in the U.S. can be expensive.
A local 4 year degree at my city's state run university is around 18,000 to 22,000 per year for tuition. And that's without room and board.
In comparison a private liberal arts school near me is $65,652 per year for tuition alone.
To me the state option is still pretty darn expensive especially if you are also paying for the kids room and board.
A local 4 year degree at my city's state run university is around 18,000 to 22,000 per year for tuition. And that's without room and board.
In comparison a private liberal arts school near me is $65,652 per year for tuition alone.
To me the state option is still pretty darn expensive especially if you are also paying for the kids room and board.
Does the money for the college fees have to come from cash? University fees (in the UK) can be paid for by a student loan which is paid off once the student starts working. Parents don't have to pay for it
starting one's life with the (emotional/financial) weight of "just" $80,000 to $100,000 in debt is not a good strategy, in my opinion.
The interest on those loans are pretty low. To the extent that people recommend you max out your 401k before paying off your loans. College graduates have lifetime earnings of 500,000 or more over non-degree holders. If 80-100,000 is prohibitively expensive then something is going on where universities are failing to deliver valuable and education, and the solution is those students stop seeing university as a good investment and stop propping up failing schools on credit.
"The interest on those loans are pretty low. To the extent that people recommend you max out your 401k before paying off your loans. "
You say this like this is normal advice.
People make all sorts of wild recommendations during a bull market, it wasn't that long ago that people were trading stories of buying Bitcoin with the money their grandparents gave thrm for college.
You say this like this is normal advice.
People make all sorts of wild recommendations during a bull market, it wasn't that long ago that people were trading stories of buying Bitcoin with the money their grandparents gave thrm for college.
Not sure if you know but things in the US are outrageously expensive. Childcare might cost 4k per month, a private tutor is ~50-100/hr, the best schools are generally either public schools in the richest suburbs or private schools that cost 50k/year. College even at a State University is going to cost $10,000 per year and at least as much for living costs so you are looking at ~$80,000 for a 4 year degree.
>- A luxury university diploma will not guarantee a good job
Maybe not guarantee but it can certainly make a difference. All else being equal a job candidate with a degree from University of Florida is going to get passed up for one with a degree from Yale and one with a degree from University of South Florida is going to get passed up for the one from University of Florida.
>- A luxury university diploma will not guarantee a good job
Maybe not guarantee but it can certainly make a difference. All else being equal a job candidate with a degree from University of Florida is going to get passed up for one with a degree from Yale and one with a degree from University of South Florida is going to get passed up for the one from University of Florida.
I’ve lived in some of the most expensive cities in the U.S.
Childcare at 4,000 is upper quartile of expensive cities. You’ll find many places where it’s half or less of that price. Private schools at $50k a year are either going to be boarding or some of the more expensive country day schools. Even Sidwell, where Obama sent his kids, is cheaper than this.
And finally we get to university education. There are many schools with merit based scholarships. Treating living expenses as unique to college is also wrong.
Nothing is stopping a kid from getting a job in college!
Childcare at 4,000 is upper quartile of expensive cities. You’ll find many places where it’s half or less of that price. Private schools at $50k a year are either going to be boarding or some of the more expensive country day schools. Even Sidwell, where Obama sent his kids, is cheaper than this.
And finally we get to university education. There are many schools with merit based scholarships. Treating living expenses as unique to college is also wrong.
Nothing is stopping a kid from getting a job in college!
> I’ve lived in some of the most expensive cities in the U.S.
> Childcare at 4,000 is upper quartile of expensive cities. You’ll find many places where it’s half or less of that price. Private schools at $50k a year are either going to be boarding or some of the more expensive country day schools.
You either have not lived in expensive cities in the US or at least didn't have kids while there!
For example in this list nearly all schools are over 50K:
https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-private-high-schools/m...
> Childcare at 4,000 is upper quartile of expensive cities. You’ll find many places where it’s half or less of that price. Private schools at $50k a year are either going to be boarding or some of the more expensive country day schools.
You either have not lived in expensive cities in the US or at least didn't have kids while there!
For example in this list nearly all schools are over 50K:
https://www.niche.com/k12/search/best-private-high-schools/m...
>Childcare at 4,000 is upper quartile of expensive cities. You’ll find many places where it’s half or less of that price. Private schools at $50k a year are either going to be boarding or some of the more expensive country day schools. Even Sidwell, where Obama sent his kids, is cheaper than this.
Most of the people on this site aren't farmers living in Rural Iowa so idk how relevant the cost of living in places like that are.
>And finally we get to university education. There are many schools with merit based scholarships. Treating living expenses as unique to college is also wrong.
Not everyone is getting scholarship. Obviously that changes the calculus.
>Nothing is stopping a kid from getting a job in college!
This is pure boomer sentiment. I had a job every summer in college and through grad school, this was only ~10 years ago and it paid for exactly 0% of my tuition. It was enough to survive the summers and pay my rent during grad school that was it.
Most of the people on this site aren't farmers living in Rural Iowa so idk how relevant the cost of living in places like that are.
>And finally we get to university education. There are many schools with merit based scholarships. Treating living expenses as unique to college is also wrong.
Not everyone is getting scholarship. Obviously that changes the calculus.
>Nothing is stopping a kid from getting a job in college!
This is pure boomer sentiment. I had a job every summer in college and through grad school, this was only ~10 years ago and it paid for exactly 0% of my tuition. It was enough to survive the summers and pay my rent during grad school that was it.
> I had a job every summer in college and through grad school, this was only ~10 years ago and it paid for exactly 0% of my tuition.
It also digs into time that you could be socializing, or as professionals call it "networking". Having a job during school also is downward pressure on your grades, it makes it very hard to have top performance in your classes. Which excludes you from most scholarships.
Anecdotally I had two jobs most of my time during university, one on weekends one on evenings.
I wound up with less debt (note, not NO debt, just less) than most of my classmates but the tradeoff was that I basically entered the workforce basically already burned out and that was a seriously negative impact on my early career.
It also digs into time that you could be socializing, or as professionals call it "networking". Having a job during school also is downward pressure on your grades, it makes it very hard to have top performance in your classes. Which excludes you from most scholarships.
Anecdotally I had two jobs most of my time during university, one on weekends one on evenings.
I wound up with less debt (note, not NO debt, just less) than most of my classmates but the tradeoff was that I basically entered the workforce basically already burned out and that was a seriously negative impact on my early career.
> I don’t understand Americans POV on this subject.
Long-term, the American style meritocratic striving is probably unsustainable and harmful in innumerable ways. But it is _rational_ at least in terms of the choices parents make. Numerous metrics point to increasing economic disparities; the rungs on the ladder keep getting farther and farther apart. How can I as a parent best position my child to negotiate that climb? Parents, who as a rule worry about such things on behalf of their children respond by taking various interventions on behalf of their kids. One is spending money to buy merit, however distorted the concept is in the U.S.
An expensive education doesn’t guarantee a good job? True. But if they have the means, it’s reasonable to anticipate that parents are going to play the probabilities. The problems that arise for parents, their driven kids and the broader society are significant; and I would prefer the circumstances to be otherwise; but that’s going to take an enormous cultural change in the U.S. One that’s more systemic than that of parents choosing to send their kids to less costly universities.
Long-term, the American style meritocratic striving is probably unsustainable and harmful in innumerable ways. But it is _rational_ at least in terms of the choices parents make. Numerous metrics point to increasing economic disparities; the rungs on the ladder keep getting farther and farther apart. How can I as a parent best position my child to negotiate that climb? Parents, who as a rule worry about such things on behalf of their children respond by taking various interventions on behalf of their kids. One is spending money to buy merit, however distorted the concept is in the U.S.
An expensive education doesn’t guarantee a good job? True. But if they have the means, it’s reasonable to anticipate that parents are going to play the probabilities. The problems that arise for parents, their driven kids and the broader society are significant; and I would prefer the circumstances to be otherwise; but that’s going to take an enormous cultural change in the U.S. One that’s more systemic than that of parents choosing to send their kids to less costly universities.
> An expensive education doesn’t guarantee a good job? True.
Exactly right. The OP set up a ridiculous straw man. Avoiding smoking doesn't guarantee you won't get lung cancer.
The returns to education are well documented and large.
https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2021/data-on-display/educa...
Exactly right. The OP set up a ridiculous straw man. Avoiding smoking doesn't guarantee you won't get lung cancer.
The returns to education are well documented and large.
https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2021/data-on-display/educa...
I would say it's not so expensive as it more deprives you from the time you would otherwise spend climbing the corporate ladder, networking, and starting a company/side project.
Kids aren't the huge bill that people seem to think they are unless the parents have a spending problem or don't really want to raise the kids and lease out the education, child care, and transportation duties to other people/organizations. Then it can be really expensive to pay someone else to raise your child.
Kids aren't the huge bill that people seem to think they are unless the parents have a spending problem or don't really want to raise the kids and lease out the education, child care, and transportation duties to other people/organizations. Then it can be really expensive to pay someone else to raise your child.
Childcare is a pretty large expense. Whether you have two working parents and use daycare, or one stay at home parent (single income instead of double), there's a significant cost associated with each.
The average amount spent on a child per year is 17k [1]. It may not be that much if you're making $200k+/yr, but on the median household income of $71k/yr [2], it's a pretty significant chunk — about ~24% of your income for just one child.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/cos...
[2] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...
The average amount spent on a child per year is 17k [1]. It may not be that much if you're making $200k+/yr, but on the median household income of $71k/yr [2], it's a pretty significant chunk — about ~24% of your income for just one child.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2022/cos...
[2] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...
Yes, that was the point I made. Either opportunity costs or it costs for if both parents work full time.
I do think that families that figure out how to at least have one parent home for the kids seem to have better relationships with them. I like the idea of families that can swap each parent having a year or something with the kids, the issue is that most careers don't support that model. You can't have multiple year gaps in your resume nor do both spouses often make the same income.
I do think that families that figure out how to at least have one parent home for the kids seem to have better relationships with them. I like the idea of families that can swap each parent having a year or something with the kids, the issue is that most careers don't support that model. You can't have multiple year gaps in your resume nor do both spouses often make the same income.
I’m American and I don’t really understand where you are coming from. Except for some of the elite universities I don’t think the main reason is networking.
My college experience was at a regular school learning and gaining experience through work. No debt, no loans, and state scholarship that paid 100% tuition if I went to a public school in my state. The scholarship required a 3.0 in high school and thereafter. Most of my high school friends who went to college did a similar thing.
Sure some went to Ivy League or other expensive networking type schools but it was the exception.
My college experience was at a regular school learning and gaining experience through work. No debt, no loans, and state scholarship that paid 100% tuition if I went to a public school in my state. The scholarship required a 3.0 in high school and thereafter. Most of my high school friends who went to college did a similar thing.
Sure some went to Ivy League or other expensive networking type schools but it was the exception.
i think it has to do with the vast oversupply of labor (at least for white collar jobs). employers generally pick people with degrees of people without because there's just too many candidates.
Then that's what 'interesting life' means to you, which is ok
Even with the ending of your story being "it didn't work out", i can't help but feel envious.
The longer I live, the more I subscribe to this view. My uncle was a trucker. He lived a weird life full crazy adventures and he loved it. Yes, it did bring pain, loneliness and eventual breakup of his family unit, but I always found him in high spirits. Bad things happen, but he was able to shrug those off partially because he knew what he was doing let him enjoy life a lot more despite being somewhat unstable.
I'm not sure I follow.
Me, an interviewer: "so you know compilers, great start on monday"
Also me: "so you know compilers and have studied math on top, sorry son thats a no from me"
Me, an interviewer: "so you know compilers, great start on monday"
Also me: "so you know compilers and have studied math on top, sorry son thats a no from me"
Tech interviews expect esoteric minutia to be on the top of your mind and easily recallable. You also must be able to talk about past projects in great detail as if you worked on them yesterday.
If you take more than a few months off interviews become insanely hard.
If you take more than a few months off interviews become insanely hard.
I've taken over a year off now than once and haven't found this to be true. Things generally change less than it feels like, and you can get caught up on any new coding practices pretty quickly.
Frankly that's an insane expectation. I've done a ton of stuff and don't remember all the details of projects that I've worked on
That’s why interview prep is so important. You need to sit down and remember things you did in previous roles and how they apply in the role you’re applying for.
Your competition for the best jobs do this. If you don’t, that’s up to you, but you’re asking for a five or six figure annual commit to you, it’s reasonable that in an hour or two you can talk about what you have done in the past in enough detail an interviewer can see how that experience applies in the new role.
Your competition for the best jobs do this. If you don’t, that’s up to you, but you’re asking for a five or six figure annual commit to you, it’s reasonable that in an hour or two you can talk about what you have done in the past in enough detail an interviewer can see how that experience applies in the new role.
I followed the inverse path: first academia in non-CS and then tech engineering. And though it hasn’t been that many years after academia, I wouldn’t be able to do it again after my gap. Granted, academics will probably don’t care about my experiences doing something else, but personally I have forgotten so many things that I’d have to start with master-level courses to refresh my memory. And then spend months to catch up with the advancements in the field I was working on.
But then again, I might be comparing oranges to apples here.
But then again, I might be comparing oranges to apples here.
Interviewer: we got 3 great candidates to the final stage we need to pick one. This
chap is strong but he will need 3 months to get up to speed after the hiatus. Let’s go with the others.
Depends alot on the supply and demand of compiler engineers though.
Could be interviewer: finally a competent compiler engineer! Handcuff him to that gold bar!
Depends alot on the supply and demand of compiler engineers though.
Could be interviewer: finally a competent compiler engineer! Handcuff him to that gold bar!
>I'd be out-of-touch with compilers
Why?
Ive always thought that those jobs are like: every company does it a little bit different (tools, processes, architecture) but theory, parsing and LLVM stay the same.
So what changes in e.g year or two? new CPU instructions? Architectures?
How does your job look like? You are doing more frontend or backend work?
Why?
Ive always thought that those jobs are like: every company does it a little bit different (tools, processes, architecture) but theory, parsing and LLVM stay the same.
So what changes in e.g year or two? new CPU instructions? Architectures?
How does your job look like? You are doing more frontend or backend work?
It's less a question about what changes, and more a question about how well you can recall your past experience (I had the big picture, but forgot the details of several optimizations I'd written in the past, as well as certain CS fundamentals), and how well you can do online coding interviews (I've only written Coq, at a glacial pace, over the last three years).
I will mainly be working on the middle-end and back-end for RISC-V.
I will mainly be working on the middle-end and back-end for RISC-V.
OT but if your French is decent and in a few years you get tired of city life maybe keep the French countryside in sight, outside of Paris it's a different country.
Hehe, perhaps when I'm older. My collaborator on the LICS paper also tells me that the countryside is very beautiful. It will take time to get used to, as I've lived in big cities for the entirety of my life, and participate in activities like book clubs.
I had always thought you were just switching to a focus on formal methods! Otoh we had only interacted a teeny bit / little to none while you were in nyc I think
I initially kept that option open, yes. However, there are surprisingly few available positions in formal methods outside of academia, and Coq is very very hard: my ability to prove things with Coq is quite modest.
Probably worth noting that I did have an PhD offer earlier, to work with Coq. However, since it was in a small village in Germany, I had to turn it down.
On a more general note, I don't know if formal methods is that promising today: proof assistants are very immature, and proving even little things involves a lot of trial-and-error and is very time-consuming.
Yes, I recall interacting with you!
Probably worth noting that I did have an PhD offer earlier, to work with Coq. However, since it was in a small village in Germany, I had to turn it down.
On a more general note, I don't know if formal methods is that promising today: proof assistants are very immature, and proving even little things involves a lot of trial-and-error and is very time-consuming.
Yes, I recall interacting with you!
I would have gone with the small village in Germany! But yes, formal methods will likely be eclipsed by machine learning applications due to the investment in skills required and time consuming nature of the activities.
It's a beautiful paper, even if the significance of sections is lost on me. Very clear and concise and beautiful illustrations. I learned a few things from it (I like how you describe planar trees as trees that can't be reflected about the y-axis).
Your story brought me joy! I am really happy that you had the opportunity to follow your passion, and did! And that you are happy with the decision you made while still seeing the negative consequences.
To me that is a truly a life well lived.
To me that is a truly a life well lived.
Every manager I worked with gets impressed by origin stories like this. I would guess it is even easier in Europe.
The greatest such story I've ever read is this one from a GitHub issue comment:
https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
> Sorry I missed your comment of many months ago. I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-)
https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149...
> Sorry I missed your comment of many months ago. I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-)
That's me! It also generated a rather large discussion here and if you want to read how things were going up to that point, I posted a lengthy comment there:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964
How am I doing now? Still good, still grateful to be married to somebody who gets good health insurance through their job. Still need to update my website a bit (is that work ever really done?). Still working on the mix of building stuff and rustling up new business. Please feel free to reach out if you have a furniture need or a furniture windmill to tilt at (email in profile). I do sculptural light pieces too.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964
How am I doing now? Still good, still grateful to be married to somebody who gets good health insurance through their job. Still need to update my website a bit (is that work ever really done?). Still working on the mix of building stuff and rustling up new business. Please feel free to reach out if you have a furniture need or a furniture windmill to tilt at (email in profile). I do sculptural light pieces too.
I need you to understand that I think about this comment all of the time. Every time someone asks for something ridiculous, I think "I could be making furniture out of wood".
I doubt that I am alone in that.
I doubt that I am alone in that.
I am continually surprised by how much that comment resonates with other programmers. I'm glad it brings you some joy and provides the idea of a different path should you decide to make a career change.
Since HN has a lot of Bay Area folks, I feel that I should mention that The Krenov School[0] is but a short drive up the coast from you lot. I haven't been, but the student work I see from there on Instagram is a source of inspiration to me.
[0] https://thekrenovschool.org/
Since HN has a lot of Bay Area folks, I feel that I should mention that The Krenov School[0] is but a short drive up the coast from you lot. I haven't been, but the student work I see from there on Instagram is a source of inspiration to me.
[0] https://thekrenovschool.org/
You're not remotely alone in that; this thread is full of people thinking the same. Save up money, buy land, build a small home, become a small scale farmer. That's a fantasy, but quite realizable. OK, first the kids have to grow up and leave the house if you have kids -- if you're not going to have a large income, then you'd best not have large responsibilities. Maybe you can supplement with consulting. Or maybe you'd take a job for a few years then semi-retire again.
You are not alone @mabbo.
https://youtu.be/E0uRr_5zTQg
Follow what makes you happy. You don't get a second life. How long are you going to be dead.
https://youtu.be/E0uRr_5zTQg
Follow what makes you happy. You don't get a second life. How long are you going to be dead.
I haven't seen your comment before, but I've literally considered this exact thing a few times over the last several years. I built a few pieces (a table, a bench, a fireplace mantle) and found it was super rewarding in the same ways that building software is, but despite being physically harder was ultimately a stress reducing activity. I've got a handful of young kids and a mortgage so it's stayed in the back of my mind.
If you don't mind, can you share a little about what the pay really is like? And how do you go about finding gigs? What are typical gigs like? i.e. do you build stuff and then try to find buyers, or do you find the buyer first and do heavy customizations? Do you use your own plans/designs or do you use others? How high was your skill level when you went full time? What would you recommend for someone who is largely self-taught and therefore has blind spots with some things?
If you don't mind, can you share a little about what the pay really is like? And how do you go about finding gigs? What are typical gigs like? i.e. do you build stuff and then try to find buyers, or do you find the buyer first and do heavy customizations? Do you use your own plans/designs or do you use others? How high was your skill level when you went full time? What would you recommend for someone who is largely self-taught and therefore has blind spots with some things?
Oh I think will reach out about purchasing some furniture actually! I've had an idea in mind I'm hoping you'll be able to help with. It's a combo dresser / RSS client that could hold not only all my clothes but also any recent updates to my subscriptions
You are an inspiration - the chandelier on your website is a thing of joy. I may reach out soon, my wife and I have been talking about a side table that she has very definite ideas about.
(I'm working my way through the Anarchist Design book and thinking about getting started on the stick chairs).
(I'm working my way through the Anarchist Design book and thinking about getting started on the stick chairs).
Thanks for the kind words; I had so much fun building that chandelier! Please do reach out; it's always a lot of fun working with people who have a strong vision and working with them to figure out how to realize it in wood.
Regarding stick chairs, I put one together from an accumulation of scrap pieces recently (hey, this could be a leg some day! throws it in the stick chair pile). Putting one together out of random pieces and letting the pieces you have "inform" the design is about as close as it gets to the sheer hackery joy of banging together some wild one-liner (if I use awk this way and pipe it to sort it'll do what I want) in the shell and hitting enter.
It's like, there's no way this could possibly work, and then you're sitting in it marveling at the fact that it only wobbles a bit. And then you level the feet (or fix your quoting), and damn if it doesn't do just what you want it to!
It's also a cool opportunity to make some of your own tools. Jennie Alexander has a great article on making your own tapered reamer[0] (which does sort of require a lathe), and Tim Manney has one on using your reamer to make a tapered tenon cutter[1].
[0] https://www.greenwoodworking.org/steel-saw-tapered-reamer-pl... Dunno what's up with the certificate error, but the site is legit. You don't have to get picky about the compass saw. I did this out of one I picked up at my local large home improvement store.
[1] http://timmanneychairmaker.blogspot.com/2015/06/use-your-rea...
Regarding stick chairs, I put one together from an accumulation of scrap pieces recently (hey, this could be a leg some day! throws it in the stick chair pile). Putting one together out of random pieces and letting the pieces you have "inform" the design is about as close as it gets to the sheer hackery joy of banging together some wild one-liner (if I use awk this way and pipe it to sort it'll do what I want) in the shell and hitting enter.
It's like, there's no way this could possibly work, and then you're sitting in it marveling at the fact that it only wobbles a bit. And then you level the feet (or fix your quoting), and damn if it doesn't do just what you want it to!
It's also a cool opportunity to make some of your own tools. Jennie Alexander has a great article on making your own tapered reamer[0] (which does sort of require a lathe), and Tim Manney has one on using your reamer to make a tapered tenon cutter[1].
[0] https://www.greenwoodworking.org/steel-saw-tapered-reamer-pl... Dunno what's up with the certificate error, but the site is legit. You don't have to get picky about the compass saw. I did this out of one I picked up at my local large home improvement store.
[1] http://timmanneychairmaker.blogspot.com/2015/06/use-your-rea...
Out of curiosity did you go into woodworking with the intent of making a living from it? Or were you in the position where you had enough savings/passive income/whatever to keep the lights on if woodworking didn't provide a steady income?
I do it for money and am not financially independent. My partner is the primary income earner in our household, and I would expect that she will retain that position for the foreseeable future.
Our goal is definitely that my contribution to our household economy grows to a more equal role, but she works an professional job and has been at it for a while and moved up over time.
Our goal is definitely that my contribution to our household economy grows to a more equal role, but she works an professional job and has been at it for a while and moved up over time.
My son is taking classes in IT and one of his current lecturers switched from carpentry to IT after cutting off several fingers.
dang. Do they avoid high typing requirements, or have a workaround of some kind? I often wonder what my backup plan would be to any kind of hand injury, let alone missing fingers. I used to do a lot of carpentry but my fingers are intact.
And we still can't do concurrent pushes/pulls
> the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw
This is a solved problem. SawStop will reduce the injury from amputation to somewhere between laceration and a pinch.
This is a solved problem. SawStop will reduce the injury from amputation to somewhere between laceration and a pinch.
I think they were using it as shorthand for all of the physical risks that physical fabricators have, rather than saying circular saws are the one single risk and there is no mitigation.
People might find it fun to know there is a literary term for this -- synecdoche!
> a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole or vice versa, as in Cleveland won by six runs (meaning “Cleveland's baseball team”)
(in this case, "circular saws" representing the whole class of dangerous power tools)
> a figure of speech in which a part is made to represent the whole or vice versa, as in Cleveland won by six runs (meaning “Cleveland's baseball team”)
(in this case, "circular saws" representing the whole class of dangerous power tools)
As a former Clevelander, I find that particular example unlikely :-D
Still waiting for that World Series win.
Still waiting for that World Series win.
> shorthand
Pun intended? :)
Pun intended? :)
Even saw stops have bypasses, for when you need to cut a conductive material. And there are many other woodworking tools with the same amputative qualities.
Looks like the price has finally come down a bit, but it did seem to be $2000+ for something with a saw stop, but only $200+ for a regular table saw, making it out of reach of many home handypeople.
Interestingly, as I recall, nearly as many people are injured each year from power tools as are injured in vehicular collisions (in the US) and way more people drive than use power tools.
There is a solution, yes, but the problem is not solved.
Interestingly, as I recall, nearly as many people are injured each year from power tools as are injured in vehicular collisions (in the US) and way more people drive than use power tools.
There is a solution, yes, but the problem is not solved.
I bought a saw stop literally last week -- depending on your needs, they have a "compact" table saw which is basically equivalent to the craftsman jobsite $250 one, but it's $900. That said, it's head and shoulders above the basic ones in build quality, QoL features, and many other things too, PLUS it has the sawstop system.
As a hobbyist in a small shop, I bought it as my "best saw i'll need for a very long time".
The $200 saws are pieces of garbage that anyone who pursues the hobby for more than like a few months will rapidly discover the flaws of. Best bet is middle-road to get like a dewalt for $400 or so but even that has flaws compared to the sawstop.
As a hobbyist in a small shop, I bought it as my "best saw i'll need for a very long time".
The $200 saws are pieces of garbage that anyone who pursues the hobby for more than like a few months will rapidly discover the flaws of. Best bet is middle-road to get like a dewalt for $400 or so but even that has flaws compared to the sawstop.
Just a quick note on this since I ran into the same wtf? moment a few years ago.
1) Saw Stop holds a number of patents that legally prevented anyone else from adding the same tech to their saws. Most of the patents didn’t expire until 2021, but a few are still effective until 2024. We will probably see other manufacturers add similar features in 2025 as a result.
2) SawStop built its reputation on being a premium brand in addition to being safer. So the quality of components, materials, and build is a lot higher than what you get in even a mid grade dewalt saw.
I still wouldn’t buy one at their exorbitant prices, but hopefully the “accidentally removing fingers” problem will be better solved in a few years.
1) Saw Stop holds a number of patents that legally prevented anyone else from adding the same tech to their saws. Most of the patents didn’t expire until 2021, but a few are still effective until 2024. We will probably see other manufacturers add similar features in 2025 as a result.
2) SawStop built its reputation on being a premium brand in addition to being safer. So the quality of components, materials, and build is a lot higher than what you get in even a mid grade dewalt saw.
I still wouldn’t buy one at their exorbitant prices, but hopefully the “accidentally removing fingers” problem will be better solved in a few years.
Another point to show how deeply unethical the US patent system is. I wonder how many people have lost appendages because of these patents and the exorbitant pricing?
Nick Offerman has a great quote about this, it boils down to the guy deserves money for something he created and others could have, but were too cheap to make and require. It's not the patent holders fault that they can make money from caring about people's safety.
No, it's very clearly the fault of the US patent system. If you design a capitalist hellhole then of course people will try to get rich off of it.
[deleted]
Dropped out of tech, arguably more by force than choice. My lifestyle, finances, social life, even country of residence (and by extension my love life) were all balanced on top of that little MacBook Pro. Used it for work, used it to socialize, eventually my brain refused to let me mediate my entire life through a computer any longer and I burned out. Now I work at a hotel! Receptionist, barista, waiter, even some maintenance and housekeeping when there’s a need for an extra pair of hands. It covers my needs financially and I get to interact with dozens of new people on a daily basis, which has proven absurdly healthy for me. Still “do tech” in my spare time, but now there’s no pressure, only desire. It’s better for me, but I would hesitate to generally recommend this model of “become sustainable outside of tech and then dip your toes in as you like” - it probably only works because I have previous tech experience, and I am far less productive now as well. But maybe it is not a bad idea for techies burning out.
I work as a janitor in the building I own and I love it. The problems people bring to me are so realistic and easy to solve. The worse thing that could happen is I have to call a tradesmen. I have about 24 bills to pay a year. The real world happens at such a manageable scale compared to technology. The stress of being a System Administrator was such a low-level hum I didn't know it was there.
Wow! I've been dabbling in real estate investment as a potential escape hatch from tech and I'd love to hear more about this!
What can I say. I bought an old school house around 2 miles from my house spent a fortune turning into a mixed use building. Each classroom is a studio apartment. I had a fiber line installed.
I guess the only thing I can say is that 8 units was a magic number for me. The idea is that if one should pay about 25% as rent. 8 units represent 200% of the average income of my town. The downside is that all the serious building code laws start above 5 units. This means I must comply with ADA, Fire protection, and many others. I don't resent this. They all seem like fair if costly rules.
I prefer a single building to multiple smaller units. A single building helps me focus and I only have one location to be at besides home.
view.cogs.com
view.cogs.com
That's a neat old building. You're in a cool corner of MA, too. I love North Adams.
I love it here stop by next time you are around.
The distinguishing features between 5 and 8 from my point of view.
Windows are not ventilation. Ventilation must be measured so mechanical ventilation is required. Guaranteed mechanical ventilation ensures a certain quality of life.
Sprinkler system is required for a building made out of brick and has no furnace or gas appliances. The reasoning is egress. The Sprinkler is the worst part because I installed a mechanical thing that could flood to help in case there is fire.
Vertical lift to connect 2 hallways with a 4' height difference. This maybe Massachusetts specific but... When I was shopping for the vertical lift if I lived 15 west in New York State or a mile north in Vermont. I could purchased a used unit on ebay for under $7,000 and wheeled it into place. Massachusetts requirements ended costing $40,000 and every 2 years around $2,000 for inspections. All units need to accommodate modifications for ADA compliance. Meaning that don't need to be equipped but they must able to be retrofitted.
Do your research nothing can be considered logical or straight forward. Everything sounds crazy but it is a responsibility to provide shelter to others and most things are valid if costly.
Windows are not ventilation. Ventilation must be measured so mechanical ventilation is required. Guaranteed mechanical ventilation ensures a certain quality of life.
Sprinkler system is required for a building made out of brick and has no furnace or gas appliances. The reasoning is egress. The Sprinkler is the worst part because I installed a mechanical thing that could flood to help in case there is fire.
Vertical lift to connect 2 hallways with a 4' height difference. This maybe Massachusetts specific but... When I was shopping for the vertical lift if I lived 15 west in New York State or a mile north in Vermont. I could purchased a used unit on ebay for under $7,000 and wheeled it into place. Massachusetts requirements ended costing $40,000 and every 2 years around $2,000 for inspections. All units need to accommodate modifications for ADA compliance. Meaning that don't need to be equipped but they must able to be retrofitted.
Do your research nothing can be considered logical or straight forward. Everything sounds crazy but it is a responsibility to provide shelter to others and most things are valid if costly.
Here should be around 4,000 photos from start to current.
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0Y5oqs3qnakFd
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0Y5oqs3qnakFd
For those considering something like this, that 5 unit thing is a real bar to cross, which is why small buildings above 5 are so rare; once you cross the line many of the hassles are the same price if you have 8 units or 80.
I drove by your building a few years ago and thought it looked great amidst the scenery. I like that you were able to convert it, thanks for sharing
Must have been lost. Next you are in the neighborhood stop by. I'm on the corner of 2 roads that lead no-where and has no stop signs.
Yes I was, best part of that drive. Saw more than I expected. Will do, thanks for the invite
It's really weird when that happens. I one time was driving to visit colleges in Maine. In the mountains 3 hours from any ocean was 100 year old 40ish foot wooden Ketch. I of course was the only one that noticed the boat.
About a month later a friend sent me a video of guys pouring a wooden keel in western Mass. Lo behold they were using the boat I saw for a new boat they were building.
Here is there effort https://www.acorntoarabella.com
Here is there effort https://www.acorntoarabella.com
That looks like an excellent place for a small company offsite weekend. Or week.
Yes, I’m trying to figure out how best to use it.
I guess I'm trying to start a hacker design community. My interest is trying to fabricate sophisticated laminates using a CNC and vacuum infusion. Ideally the other 7 units would be occupied by other HN readers that want to be able to walk to the Appalachian trail or a couple of art museums.
massmoca.org
clarkart.edu
The building has a fiber line and 5 static IPs. Almost net zero and proof that air-sourced heat pumps work in New England even if the rooms have 44% glazing on 1 wall.
The building has a fiber line and 5 static IPs. Almost net zero and proof that air-sourced heat pumps work in New England even if the rooms have 44% glazing on 1 wall.
I have a part time job loading bags on airplanes and doing a bit of gate/ ticket counter customer service.
It's amazing the difference it makes in my daily well being - as you say, interacting with new people and working with your hands is very much more satisfying at the end of the day.
Getting a delayed passenger to their destination is a much more tangible problem, then coding for some ill-defined business need.
Still doing tech, but I have a much better outlook and productivity now.
It's amazing the difference it makes in my daily well being - as you say, interacting with new people and working with your hands is very much more satisfying at the end of the day.
Getting a delayed passenger to their destination is a much more tangible problem, then coding for some ill-defined business need.
Still doing tech, but I have a much better outlook and productivity now.
I once made the opposite journey and I miss the front desk daily. I have even considered finding a nice hotel where I could do the occasional weekend shift just to do something more mentally rewarding than architecting solutions, detailing user stories and testing implementation all day!
I would guess the one big difference is respect. For some reason, there is no respect for tech workers.
What do you mean by that? Admittedly, I'm not in the US, but it seems to me that tech work is a very respected profession. Especially compared to service work.
The notion that someone would leave the tech world for a job in the service industry because it comes with more respect is absolutely wild to me. That's so far away from my personal experience I honestly can't fit it into my mental model of the world.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or maybe your experience is actually super different from mine. Either way I'd be very interested in an elaboration.
The notion that someone would leave the tech world for a job in the service industry because it comes with more respect is absolutely wild to me. That's so far away from my personal experience I honestly can't fit it into my mental model of the world.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or maybe your experience is actually super different from mine. Either way I'd be very interested in an elaboration.
(not US) It seems the whole setup is constructed to make you feel bad, no appreciation for work delivered, every technical argument is seen as an excuse, deadlines have nothing to do with reality an so on. When I interacted with blue collars, they got more respect from their boss or colleagues. Of course, "working with the public" is different and I would guess the only job that is more toxic than programming.
I don't think this is because of tech work. I think this is because of bad management, which is not restricted to tech work. It's probably not even more common in tech work.
>It seems the whole setup is constructed to make you feel bad, no appreciation for work delivered, every technical argument is seen as an excuse, deadlines have nothing to do with reality an so on
it seems like everyone in this thread saying "tech workers get no respect" actually just work for shit companies...
it seems like everyone in this thread saying "tech workers get no respect" actually just work for shit companies...
You think nobody listens to engineers? Ha… Try being in life/biomedical sciences.
> The notion that someone would leave the tech world for a job in the service industry because it comes with more respect is absolutely wild to me.
There are definitely tourist-heavy parts of the US where this is absolutely true.
There are definitely tourist-heavy parts of the US where this is absolutely true.
> I would guess the one big difference is respect. For some reason, there is no respect for tech workers.
Perhaps OP meant as a trend over time? That has truth to it if you compare going back to the early 90s (my frame of reference).
In the 90s programming was not that well-paid, but was a very respected role in the companies I and my circle of programmer friends inhabited. A programmer/sysadmin was a wizard and treated as such. It was a vastly more fun industry to be in even if salaries were just regular white-collar professional level.
Slowly in the 00s after the dot com crash that seems to have vanished even as salaries started to climb. An in the 2010s programming became a low-level job where all the decision making power was removed from programmers and handed over to PMs. Now programmers are seens as replaceable worker units to be micromanaged to death via agile and daily status reports. In other words, not respected professionals anymore. The insane salaries kind of make up for the loss of respect, but not fully.
For the first couple decades of my career I always felt this was the best field of work ever, and it was. These days though, as I look at my high school peers who went into medicine, law, accounting I have to wonder. They all get ever more respected in their fields as they gain more experience, very much not the case in software anymore.
Perhaps OP meant as a trend over time? That has truth to it if you compare going back to the early 90s (my frame of reference).
In the 90s programming was not that well-paid, but was a very respected role in the companies I and my circle of programmer friends inhabited. A programmer/sysadmin was a wizard and treated as such. It was a vastly more fun industry to be in even if salaries were just regular white-collar professional level.
Slowly in the 00s after the dot com crash that seems to have vanished even as salaries started to climb. An in the 2010s programming became a low-level job where all the decision making power was removed from programmers and handed over to PMs. Now programmers are seens as replaceable worker units to be micromanaged to death via agile and daily status reports. In other words, not respected professionals anymore. The insane salaries kind of make up for the loss of respect, but not fully.
For the first couple decades of my career I always felt this was the best field of work ever, and it was. These days though, as I look at my high school peers who went into medicine, law, accounting I have to wonder. They all get ever more respected in their fields as they gain more experience, very much not the case in software anymore.
But tech workers get far more respect than people in OP's current role of a receptionist, barista, waiter, and/or housekeeping.
By most measures, yes. Tech workers get more money, better hours, easier working conditions, and will impress your partner's parents more.
But I'd wager the barista gets thanked more often, and their customers like them more.
But I'd wager the barista gets thanked more often, and their customers like them more.
I'm going to guess you have never worked a service job.
It sucks. People suck, you get yelled at, insulted, demeaned, shit pay, long hours.
Tech work is the cushiest job ever. It takes almost no effort to get into, you get paid insanely well, and skills are always in demand.
What is there to complain about?
It sucks. People suck, you get yelled at, insulted, demeaned, shit pay, long hours.
Tech work is the cushiest job ever. It takes almost no effort to get into, you get paid insanely well, and skills are always in demand.
What is there to complain about?
Some customers will like them. Some will thank them - and once in a blue moon, even thank them sincerely. But a small but non-zero subset of customers will scream in their face, curse them out in graphic terms, and threaten to get them fired or arrested for some perceived slight or mistake. And a larger subset will very obviously treat them as "servant class".
Working with the public is different and yes, worse that software development. I was referring more to interactions with your boss or colleagues.
Obviously I can’t speak to your experiences, but I definitely got more respect working as a developer than I do as a receptionist.
This seems a little bit ridiculous to be honest. I know some developers don't feel respected, but I think a lot of this is due to poor communication skills honestly
If you’re in SF, NYC, or another major city, anyone not in tech or an adjacent field sees you as a techbro gentrifier who is ruining their city. That makes it hard to make friends. You’re basically starting out at -20 reputation with 60-70% of people you meet.
How?
Teaching. I moved from a big tech company to teaching. Teaching is the hardest job I’ve ever done, and requires entire new skills. Teacher pay, depending on where you are, can be real low compared to FAANG money, but damn do I sleep well at night knowing that I help people. There is nothing like watching someone struggle and then suddenly understanding the subject.
But seriously, it is a hard job. You learn quickly that just because you understand something doesn’t mean you can explain it to someone.
But seriously, it is a hard job. You learn quickly that just because you understand something doesn’t mean you can explain it to someone.
Also moved in to teaching high school CS. It's hard but the kids are great. I've found that it's a lot less about doing a great job explaining loops or whatever and more about mentorship and getting kids excited about the topic. If anyone's interested in making the switch my email is in my bio, I'd be happy to chat.
This is a great take. Having been a kid that was super intrigued by CS, the classes were more a formality, and a place to ask the few questions I couldn't put into words very easily for an internet search. Not to say classes weren't important, but I can definitely speak to it being more about getting kids intrigued than just going through the curriculum.
As a complete side note, I think it would have been easier to learn programming if I had started with some lower-level CS, not high-level programming. Some concepts behind even high-level programming don't make a lot of sense to a newbie unless they understand what the limitations of a machine are, and why they inherently exist.
As a complete side note, I think it would have been easier to learn programming if I had started with some lower-level CS, not high-level programming. Some concepts behind even high-level programming don't make a lot of sense to a newbie unless they understand what the limitations of a machine are, and why they inherently exist.
I did the other way around. Went from teaching (university level) to FAANG. I could discuss for hours about the pros and cons of each job, but the bottom line is that I can't afford not earning that money. I'll save every single dollar I can from my SWE job and think about something else when I'm laid off, but I'm not leaving on my own.
You sound like a prisoner. No disrespect intended. It really sounds like you would be happier somewhere else. I wish you that you find that place soon.
I really want to move into teaching. I learned to love programming in HS AP CS and am really considering making the move. I would love to hear more about your experience switching.
Take a day off of work and substitute teacher.
Depending on the district you end up in, it's not for the feint of heart.
Depending on the district you end up in, it's not for the feint of heart.
I was a teacher for ten years before taking a position at a small tech consultancy. I also encourage you to jump into the substitute pool; however, please understand that as a regular classroom teacher you will have many more tools to manage a high functioning classroom (not least, a regular classroom teacher has established relationships with their students). Substitute teaching is teaching, but there's a reason expectations for what's accomplished during that day are typically quite low. This all will change classroom to classroom, school to school - of course.
Definitely but it's good for anyone thinking about a career change to get a taste for the rougher aspects of teaching to ensure that they don't have unrealistic expectations about the career
Absolutely true.
I think there are many teachers who would love to have an experienced individual come in and guest-speak about one topic or another, if that's something of interest to people.
Definitely. It's much easier to engage with a class when you're not the main source of authority. It's like being the cool aunt/uncle.
Teaching is not easy and a lot of tech work is much less stressful than it
Teaching is not easy and a lot of tech work is much less stressful than it
I have a number of family members who teach (or have taught) all ages and I feel it's one of the most important, difficult, and undervalued occupations out there.
I spent the last 3 years teaching at a software bootcamp, after being a SWE for 8yrs. It's been super rewarding - you're working with adults who are often in a hard spot financially and personally, and you get to help coach them through a major challenge, and see the positive outcomes for them.
The pay will likely be much higher than teaching elsewhere (though I still took a 30k cut). Some bootcamps are more legit than others, so just do your research first
The pay will likely be much higher than teaching elsewhere (though I still took a 30k cut). Some bootcamps are more legit than others, so just do your research first
Me too! How i wish i'm a fast learner when it comes to tech.
I really resonate with this. I work in academia and I finally decided that I don't want to do research any more, but I want to teach. The choice now is whether to take a teaching-only position in a university, or do something a little crazy and try to go back to my country and teach in a public school. Either way, I hope to feel the same as you say.
Good to hear! I'm just about to start the process of getting my teaching qualification, but it feels really daunting to make the switch and leave my fairly comfortable job behind, where I'm well appreciated (but personally I don't feel like I'm really contributing to the world).
What subject are you teaching? Mine will be physics, if all goes well.
What subject are you teaching? Mine will be physics, if all goes well.
I'm in exactly the same situation. Possibly.
This is always something in the back of my head as something I'd like to do if I aged out of tech. I come from a family of teachers and got to see first hand the satisfaction that comes from the job. A few years ago I looked my mom up on one of those rate my teacher websites and was pretty shocked at how many kids she impacted. I always assumed she was good at her job and saw her go above and beyond but seeing it was eye opening.
>I always assumed she was good at her job and saw her go above and beyond but seeing it was eye opening.
I was the only of my mother's children to attend her employer's appreciation event after she died [family did not have a funeral]. It meant so much to see how her community appreciated and respected and missed her. My siblings, her fellow children, did not want to witness this for some reason ["a waste of time"] but it's among the most beautiful things I've witnessed.
To those gathered hundred+ friends of my mother, I loudly thanked them for attending and sharing the spirit of her beautiful life; I told them calmly and proudly that "this is a celebration of 'how you should live your life,' to have left such an impact upon so many wonderful people."
Top 5 life moments/memories. RIP.
I was the only of my mother's children to attend her employer's appreciation event after she died [family did not have a funeral]. It meant so much to see how her community appreciated and respected and missed her. My siblings, her fellow children, did not want to witness this for some reason ["a waste of time"] but it's among the most beautiful things I've witnessed.
To those gathered hundred+ friends of my mother, I loudly thanked them for attending and sharing the spirit of her beautiful life; I told them calmly and proudly that "this is a celebration of 'how you should live your life,' to have left such an impact upon so many wonderful people."
Top 5 life moments/memories. RIP.
you really nailed it on the head, In way less of a way I made somewhat of a similar switch (not at all similar in the level of helping the world) from working at a huge national health/property insurance company (the literal devil) and now work for a welfare related government agency and I think not working for the devil REALLY helps as you say with sleeping at night, hopefully I can somehow make up karmically lol.
That's great. Not sure if you teach programming or CS but there is a huge shortage of high school computer science / programming teachers. If you can teach 30 kids programming every year odds are at least 1 or 2 will go on to start a successful tech company someday.
One thing to mention here is that it depends on the school.
I know a few teachers who quit or went private (for less money) because of problems in the system. The bureaucracy can be oppressive and conflict with your morals. Safety and mistreatment can also be a real concern in some areas. The good news here is that most of the kids you'd be dealing with would be taking programming as an elective, so they should actually give a damn.
I know a few teachers who quit or went private (for less money) because of problems in the system. The bureaucracy can be oppressive and conflict with your morals. Safety and mistreatment can also be a real concern in some areas. The good news here is that most of the kids you'd be dealing with would be taking programming as an elective, so they should actually give a damn.
> There is nothing like watching someone struggle and then suddenly understanding the subject.
This is why I love mentoring new hires and interns.
This is why I love mentoring new hires and interns.
I did this 15-20 years ago. I had a small internet/consulting business that I ran out of my house, with a full T1 mind you lol. Got tired of staring at the walls and tired of the f'king servers that chained me down.
An error message from a server while in the car going on a small vacation triggered the change. I had enough. So on the spot I thought of my options and decided on becoming a trucker.
My first aim was to do long haul but I never went that way. I got hired to do local LTL deliveries/pick ups and I loved it. For me it's hard to beat driving a truck when it's nice outside. Winter can be a bitch but you learn manage.
Constantly going in and out of the truck got me and keeps me in shape. I lost 100lbs and feel much better than the fat slob I used to be, tied to the keyboard. It also help that I bike to work (not in winter though).
Took a real pay cut but I would never go back. I don't think I can anyway. I started programming again a couple of years ago on personal projects and I love it. I realize that my skills are greatly diminished but it's still fun to find solutions to problems, fix the damn bugs lol, and be proud of the final product.
An error message from a server while in the car going on a small vacation triggered the change. I had enough. So on the spot I thought of my options and decided on becoming a trucker.
My first aim was to do long haul but I never went that way. I got hired to do local LTL deliveries/pick ups and I loved it. For me it's hard to beat driving a truck when it's nice outside. Winter can be a bitch but you learn manage.
Constantly going in and out of the truck got me and keeps me in shape. I lost 100lbs and feel much better than the fat slob I used to be, tied to the keyboard. It also help that I bike to work (not in winter though).
Took a real pay cut but I would never go back. I don't think I can anyway. I started programming again a couple of years ago on personal projects and I love it. I realize that my skills are greatly diminished but it's still fun to find solutions to problems, fix the damn bugs lol, and be proud of the final product.
Intersting - I have a CDL, but would never go back to that lifestyle unless absolutely needed.
It is amazing how much of a difference physical movement on a daily basis will do.
It is amazing how much of a difference physical movement on a daily basis will do.
This is my dream. Tell me more. Did you take classes? What was the investment. I feel chained to this desk.
I took classes, not the fancy 6 months full time course, but a part time 6 or 8 (can't remember) weeks course that showed me the basics. I like to drive so this was not a hardship for me. Did not buy my own rig. I just got out of self employment and did not want to go back to that.
Finding a job as a newbie was not easy at the time (because of the insurance they were saying) so I went the agency route and they found me work right away. Worked there for 2 years then found a job closer to home. Been doing that for about 15 years already.
Finding a job as a newbie was not easy at the time (because of the insurance they were saying) so I went the agency route and they found me work right away. Worked there for 2 years then found a job closer to home. Been doing that for about 15 years already.
Check your local community college - they may have a CDL course, probably $5-10k.
That way you can ease into it, the other option is to go for one of those "we pay to train" places, but that involves more upfront commitment.
That way you can ease into it, the other option is to go for one of those "we pay to train" places, but that involves more upfront commitment.
Every job I ever had in tech was basically terrible and I was never diagnosed, but I suspect was clinically depressed for the 13 years or so I was in tech.
I did not have the savings to do it, but I eventually quit and became a bicycle mechanic. I actually enjoy what I do now, and the work environment doesn't have me constantly jumping back and forth between panic, undirected rage, and extreme listlessness like tech always did. That being said, I'm now broke and probably going to lose my house, so there is that.
I did not have the savings to do it, but I eventually quit and became a bicycle mechanic. I actually enjoy what I do now, and the work environment doesn't have me constantly jumping back and forth between panic, undirected rage, and extreme listlessness like tech always did. That being said, I'm now broke and probably going to lose my house, so there is that.
Oh I just read your comment and I want to tell you that I read it. I wish you better luck around the corner. I know tech depression, I wish you all the best going forward.
> constantly jumping back and forth between panic, undirected rage, and extreme listlessness
That a great summary of working in big tech.
That a great summary of working in big tech.
my brother did something similar - quit tech because he was burned out, went to the next best bicycle shop and asked if they'd like to hire him, now he owns the place and has ~80 employees
That brother's name? Albert Einstein.
This is not uncommon in the more blue-collar businesses. Many boomers now retire, and they often can't find a suitable successor. Most ambitious young people are being led down a different path via university, so there is a real unmet need in less glorious, but nevertheless still profitable fields. Btw he wasn't gifted the company, he had to buy it from the owners of course - still a good deal.
If you get to know small business owners in these areas, you find that a large number of them have NOBODY to take over the business, for love OR money.
Being a competent employee and you'd be surprised what can happen.
Being a competent employee and you'd be surprised what can happen.
Of course they want someone to "take over" the business while keeping most of the business profits, while you are essentially just an employee.
For a small business, if you are really looking for someone to take over, you need to offer them a stake in the business, otherwise why would I bother working my ass off? I can make the same or more money just being a grunt in a large corp with much less risk and much more stability.
For a small business, if you are really looking for someone to take over, you need to offer them a stake in the business, otherwise why would I bother working my ass off? I can make the same or more money just being a grunt in a large corp with much less risk and much more stability.
That's the thing, they often get to the point where they'll give the business away to you if you show any interest.
Sometimes they find someone, often they just close down when the owner gets too old.
Sometimes they find someone, often they just close down when the owner gets too old.
Why are you going to lose your house?
You bought it while you had tech money and the bicycle mechanic money can't pay for it now?
Have you considered doing some consulting or something on the side? So sorry to hear this.
You bought it while you had tech money and the bicycle mechanic money can't pay for it now?
Have you considered doing some consulting or something on the side? So sorry to hear this.
yah, I have the tinniest cheapest house pretty far outside of the city but the mortgage is just too much without roommates (which is how all my coworkers afford apartments), but it's small enough that I really don't want to do that
I've tried to do some consulting work, but never could figure out how to get any clients. Apparently this is a thing people do somehow, but everyone I asked just knew somebody to get their first ones.
I've tried to do some consulting work, but never could figure out how to get any clients. Apparently this is a thing people do somehow, but everyone I asked just knew somebody to get their first ones.
Same thing (on the housing situation)... except I'm currently in fear of losing my home to an active landslide that just recently took out my septic.
Currently been using a portable toilet, for weeks, with no end in sight. Perfect metaphor for the mid-life crisis that's fortunately been co-happening during this same shit period =P
Currently seeking land with less of a view, and more solid foundations.
Currently been using a portable toilet, for weeks, with no end in sight. Perfect metaphor for the mid-life crisis that's fortunately been co-happening during this same shit period =P
Currently seeking land with less of a view, and more solid foundations.
"shit period", pun intended?
Jokes aside, good luck, so far I've been really lucky and haven't had any major house issues, that's super tough.
Jokes aside, good luck, so far I've been really lucky and haven't had any major house issues, that's super tough.
Have you considered cashing out? Meaning selling the house so you get you equity back. Maybe you can use that to move somewhere more affordable and start over.
I've thought about it, but I don't think that's actually an option. Renting is just going back to throwing money into some asshole landlord making profit off of other people not wanting to be houseless, and everywhere else where I'd have any possible desire to live is getting more and more expensive too, so even though I'm lucky in that my house has gone up a lot it doesn't actually do me any good if I want to buy again and I'd just be wasting that equity slowly by renting (and then be back in the same position in a few years having burnt all that equity up). Might as well try and figure out a way to stay instead; if I fail and lose it I'll just be in the same position I otherwise would be in, just a few years earlier.
>even though I'm lucky in that my house has gone up a lot it doesn't actually do me any good if I want to buy again
That's only true if you want to buy again somewhere with similarly priced real estate rather than somewhere with cheaper real estate.
That's only true if you want to buy again somewhere with similarly priced real estate rather than somewhere with cheaper real estate.
I mean, I'd love to buy somewhere cheaper, but that would require being even further outside of the city (and further from work) than I already am. Taking a job outside of the city means lower pay, making that place just as expensive as being sort of near, but not quite near the city. Not to mention that I'm already in a fairly cheap market (I mean, it's the Atlanta area so it's not "cheap", but it's not New York or San Francisco or what not). Trust me when I say that you can't live in (or near) the city without roommates unless you make a software salary or are very lucky.
I hope/pray you find a way
If you want a cautionary tale, here it is:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3134322
The coffeeshop fallacy (2011)
It‘s easy to get blinded by how incredibly privileged the tech bubble is and have had a better experience so far just trying to find a great non-toxic spot in there. YMMV, good luck!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3134322
The coffeeshop fallacy (2011)
It‘s easy to get blinded by how incredibly privileged the tech bubble is and have had a better experience so far just trying to find a great non-toxic spot in there. YMMV, good luck!
Especially if you've done it your whole professional life. The type of people who see a major tech company charging for lunches in the company cafeteria and then write articles about them trying to starve their employees would curl up and die the first time a customer screamed at them because their pizza had black olives on 60% of it instead of half.
I work in tech, but not for a big tech company or a hip funded startup, and this weird “unionist language bastardised by the developer on $300k/yr not getting his (yes, his) butter chicken paid for” stuff is just endlessly cringey to me.
Whilst I wouldn’t be seen dead working in a place like that, y’all really don’t know how good you’ve got it.
Whilst I wouldn’t be seen dead working in a place like that, y’all really don’t know how good you’ve got it.
YUP! Came here looking to see if anyone called this out and you did. If you didn't I was going to.
I don't love working in tech the way I used to but I do still love cashing those paychecks! You can do what you love sure... or you can make the money you want. Almost nobody can do both.
As for me - I know theres bullshit every where you go and all jobs have sucky parts and I prefer this devil because I in fact do get paid enough to put up with this shit.
How about compartmentalizing your job and being happy after putting in 8h of work? Also, reading HN kinda bums me out on tech too at times. The Instagram Effect where you feel like everyone besides you is doing something cooler than fixing bugs in the CRUD application your company sells.
I don't love working in tech the way I used to but I do still love cashing those paychecks! You can do what you love sure... or you can make the money you want. Almost nobody can do both.
As for me - I know theres bullshit every where you go and all jobs have sucky parts and I prefer this devil because I in fact do get paid enough to put up with this shit.
How about compartmentalizing your job and being happy after putting in 8h of work? Also, reading HN kinda bums me out on tech too at times. The Instagram Effect where you feel like everyone besides you is doing something cooler than fixing bugs in the CRUD application your company sells.
I’m not proud of it but I really hate black olives and really wanted that extra 10% of pizza.
They do it every time, don't they? If my brother and I get a single pizza I know he's getting two thirds of it because his black olives are going to be all over the place and they taste like poison.
You guys don’t have to pay for your lunches? That’s pretty cool
The original article seems to be down, here's an archived version of it: https://web.archive.org/web/20120529125543/http://thestartup...
This is why it's so important to mix with people from outside of your bubble. HN has some of the worst examples of people who don't know what they have. The discussions around salary are particularly amusing. I'm lucky because my partner is a nurse so I never forget how easy my job is. I also grew up in a poor family and I haven't forgotten what that was like. Honestly, if people would go and spend a long time in a country like India where people actually have it tough I'm sure they'd be a LOT happier.
For me it's not that I don't feel lucky or enjoy my job in a general sense I guess. I just don't want to do the same thing over and over again my whole life. I started programming on a Commodore at like 6 or 7 years old and have basically never stopped now that I'm in my 40s.
Same age, same concerns.
I was 8 when I started on a PcJr with BASIC.
I'm now in my 40s writing everything from Angular to C# APIs to database stored procedures.
Honestly, I've had enough and already suffered through one massive burnout that almost cost me my career.
I've been looking at what else I can do ... but I have no idea. And that scares me.
I can't see myself doing this in my 60s! And I'm not really the management type.
I was 8 when I started on a PcJr with BASIC.
I'm now in my 40s writing everything from Angular to C# APIs to database stored procedures.
Honestly, I've had enough and already suffered through one massive burnout that almost cost me my career.
I've been looking at what else I can do ... but I have no idea. And that scares me.
I can't see myself doing this in my 60s! And I'm not really the management type.
Same here, my first programming was done on an Aquarius at around 8yo. The keyboard it had was awful, but I got to learn some BASIC. IT has been a huge part of my life since. While thankful for that path and what it has afforded my family, I've found it difficult lately to find meaning in it.
Isn't that what hobbies are for? Changing career seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I feel like just patronizing other businesses and watching others work should provide enough perspective. Not having to deal with the general public is itself an amazing benefit.
There's a prolific poster on HN who I've noticed pops into COL discussions to insist that $300k a year is near poverty. Tim something, like clockwork. It's hilarious.
See also Venkatesh Rao's blog post on The Locust Economy[1]:
> "To take coffee shops as an example, an unending supply of idealistic wannabe cafe owners enters the sector every year, operates at a loss for a few years, and exits. The result is that even under normal business conditions, without swarming locust consumers, this is a loss-making business with an extinction rate of around 90% at the 5 year point in the US. Starbucks has the scale to be profitable and resilient. Locust coffee drinkers happily drink the excellent, loss-making coffee from small, local Jeffersonian coffee shops and callously retreat to Starbucks or DIY homebrew if the prices go up. Starbucks survives, coffee drinking grasshoppers survive, small coffee shops go in and out of business."
("Locust coffee drinkers" is analogy not insult).
[1] https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/04/03/the-locust-economy/
> "To take coffee shops as an example, an unending supply of idealistic wannabe cafe owners enters the sector every year, operates at a loss for a few years, and exits. The result is that even under normal business conditions, without swarming locust consumers, this is a loss-making business with an extinction rate of around 90% at the 5 year point in the US. Starbucks has the scale to be profitable and resilient. Locust coffee drinkers happily drink the excellent, loss-making coffee from small, local Jeffersonian coffee shops and callously retreat to Starbucks or DIY homebrew if the prices go up. Starbucks survives, coffee drinking grasshoppers survive, small coffee shops go in and out of business."
("Locust coffee drinkers" is analogy not insult).
[1] https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/04/03/the-locust-economy/
Agreed completely. As soul sucking as corporate software can be, we are very fortunate to be able to earn a great living for doing something (often) mentally stimulating and physically easy.
I’m sure many a barista fantasy has been crushed the first time having to deal with an unruly or argumentative customer, clean diarrhea off the bathroom walls, etc. Yeah, you have less to worry about once your shift is over, but your shift might really suck.
In our culture it sounds cringe/like bragging to make these kinds of comparisons punching down (to which I retort that the “back to blue collar” fantasy started it) but at this point in my life I don’t think I’ll ever have to put up with crap like that for money in the future, and I don’t plan to. Why would I do that?? We get paid several multiples just to tell computers to send little packets of data formatted just so from here to there.
All you need to do to be happy is what you’d be doing at your barista job anyway - stop giving a crap about your job after regular working hours, and stop trying to find an existential purpose in repetitive, draining tasks. Once you can do that, you reap all the benefits of higher pay with less bullshit
I’m sure many a barista fantasy has been crushed the first time having to deal with an unruly or argumentative customer, clean diarrhea off the bathroom walls, etc. Yeah, you have less to worry about once your shift is over, but your shift might really suck.
In our culture it sounds cringe/like bragging to make these kinds of comparisons punching down (to which I retort that the “back to blue collar” fantasy started it) but at this point in my life I don’t think I’ll ever have to put up with crap like that for money in the future, and I don’t plan to. Why would I do that?? We get paid several multiples just to tell computers to send little packets of data formatted just so from here to there.
All you need to do to be happy is what you’d be doing at your barista job anyway - stop giving a crap about your job after regular working hours, and stop trying to find an existential purpose in repetitive, draining tasks. Once you can do that, you reap all the benefits of higher pay with less bullshit
It is important to understand that everyone has sometimes escape phantasies (teachers, therapists, baristas, founders, medical doctors, professors, developers, etc., they all do) because something is making them truly unhappy in their day-to-day job and they assume other people happier. Finding about the root cause what makes you unhappy will usually lead to more satisfying results than just running after to become a farmer or woodchopper because it has nothing to do with "computers". Sometimes the answer is to switch roles but more often than not you still haven't tackled the underlying issues and the misery starts again.
For some people, sitting on a chair all day staring at a screen can be a true source of misery. When I am closer to nature, doing things with my body, I invariably feel better.
As someone who have done this for more than 10 years professionally and being doing computer stuff since mid 90's, it was fun at first, but staring the computer screen is not good for one's health. Issues such as carpal tunnel syndrome or eye problems often comes up. Jobs involves staring at screen ought to limited to a few hour max per day.
Some jobs are just hell, and the reason people stick in those jobs is that they don't know any better. Nobody has shown them other opportunities, they think getting another job and performing it would be difficult. They think their current salaries are OK because they have nothing better to compare with. For those people, the root cause of their misery is the job and all of them would be better off switching careers.
Amen. I am exactly here, just before forty...
I went to college and tried a year of grad school, and then ran off to become an electrician. This is a profitable career but is extremely tough on body; any position within the industry, it is still physical labor. Now, after fifteen years of sacrificing myself "for the big bucks," I am left wondering whether I will be able to fit into a work environment that isn't construction [knowing that I must make this transition].
It is paralyzing fear, and removing this debilitation is hard when people are literally throwing bonkers money at anybody even claiming to be a skilled tradesman, right now — my body is done! The money is good! Whatdo?!
I'm currently "taking time off" and re-exploring a childhood love of computers... learning python, bought a new computer for first time in over a decade... trying to love this all!
And now with all the AI coding and copywriting... UGHHHHH. The timeline, it's just brilliant and perhaps I'll just retire and enjoy a new AI existence =P
I went to college and tried a year of grad school, and then ran off to become an electrician. This is a profitable career but is extremely tough on body; any position within the industry, it is still physical labor. Now, after fifteen years of sacrificing myself "for the big bucks," I am left wondering whether I will be able to fit into a work environment that isn't construction [knowing that I must make this transition].
It is paralyzing fear, and removing this debilitation is hard when people are literally throwing bonkers money at anybody even claiming to be a skilled tradesman, right now — my body is done! The money is good! Whatdo?!
I'm currently "taking time off" and re-exploring a childhood love of computers... learning python, bought a new computer for first time in over a decade... trying to love this all!
And now with all the AI coding and copywriting... UGHHHHH. The timeline, it's just brilliant and perhaps I'll just retire and enjoy a new AI existence =P
My problem is the lack of respect. What can I do about it?
What do you exactly mean with lack of respect? All the professions i've listed above face issues regarding lack of respect all the time (angry shop customers, angry patients, angry board members, etc.). If you feel undervalued in your current team, i would advise to interview with another company/team. If you feel undervalued in your social life, switching roles/jobs usually won't make the problems go away.
It feels like the first one. Problem is there are not many opportunities here, mainly failed, almost failed projects from the west, that need to be relocated, otherwise they don't have the money to survive. Thanks.
And your boss probably knows there aren’t many other opportunities, and that’s why they think it’s ok to treat you poorly.
Work on your sense of self and self esteem.
The computers are the good part of the job. Unless I'm dealing with npm.
The underlying issue is Corporate wonderland is a mindless machine whether you work with computers or not.
No great surprise at all that people checkout and burnout, cause people are not machines.
No great surprise at all that people checkout and burnout, cause people are not machines.
so how do you all make tech tolerable? Bonus points if you work in ops like SRE or something
I could use this advice too. I love programming; it was a teen hobby prior to making a career out of it. I inherited some elements of my old man's work ethic ("If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right", "Do it right the first time", etc) which I think are, at best, a low priority, and at worst, incompatible with the way software is built in the majority of software gigs. Value first, quality ..maybe.
So I'm attempting to reconcile the reality of modern, corporate software development with the way I derive satisfaction/meaning from my career. Boiled down, my naivete about our relationship with work, which is undoubtedly encouraged and exploited by society, has started to wane, and now I'm trying to uncouple how I get meaning/satisfaction from how I get money.
New years resolutions aren't for me but this year I tried to start loosely viewing things in my life like investments, specifically in terms of ROI. It's more of a reminder of how to think than a spreadsheet. I imagine myself as having an 'energy' budget. Sometimes I spend some energy and I get some back; other times I get nothing in return. As far as my career goes, I need to spend X to get my pay check, which eventually converts to energy. Sometimes I spend X+Y, hoping I get something more, like recognition/education/satisfaction. Sometimes that Y is engaging in a debate in peer review. Sometimes it's trying to anticipate one's manager or "showing initiative". The important thing is to track Y and if there's no return, mark that as a bad investment to be avoided in future. I burned out a couple of years ago because I was spending Y like mad with zero regard for the ROI, or at least with the vague expectation there would be some ROI one day.
Obviously this is not novel, or even a good analogy ("all models wrong; some useful"), but this framing is a (potentially) temporary way to adjust my thinking and behaviour from the brainwashed, single-minded, career-focused, please-notice-me-ceo-daddy track I started out in after school/uni.
So I'm attempting to reconcile the reality of modern, corporate software development with the way I derive satisfaction/meaning from my career. Boiled down, my naivete about our relationship with work, which is undoubtedly encouraged and exploited by society, has started to wane, and now I'm trying to uncouple how I get meaning/satisfaction from how I get money.
New years resolutions aren't for me but this year I tried to start loosely viewing things in my life like investments, specifically in terms of ROI. It's more of a reminder of how to think than a spreadsheet. I imagine myself as having an 'energy' budget. Sometimes I spend some energy and I get some back; other times I get nothing in return. As far as my career goes, I need to spend X to get my pay check, which eventually converts to energy. Sometimes I spend X+Y, hoping I get something more, like recognition/education/satisfaction. Sometimes that Y is engaging in a debate in peer review. Sometimes it's trying to anticipate one's manager or "showing initiative". The important thing is to track Y and if there's no return, mark that as a bad investment to be avoided in future. I burned out a couple of years ago because I was spending Y like mad with zero regard for the ROI, or at least with the vague expectation there would be some ROI one day.
Obviously this is not novel, or even a good analogy ("all models wrong; some useful"), but this framing is a (potentially) temporary way to adjust my thinking and behaviour from the brainwashed, single-minded, career-focused, please-notice-me-ceo-daddy track I started out in after school/uni.
By doing something else in my spare time. Don't get me wrong, I still play with tech sometimes, but staring at a screen all day and then going home to look at more screens makes it MUCH worse. Read a book, take a walk, attend a class somewhere, etc. You are not meant to work all day every day...enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Not exactly. I'm still in tech but I sold everything and bought a sailboat to sail the world after I got sick and tired of sitting at a desk. I have starlink now which makes it possible (before it was hunting for 4G/5G signals like I was the crocodile hunter) and sailboats can be pretty affordable if you want to sharpen your trade skills. I've "re-kindled" my love for woodworking, fiberglass, diesel engines, electrical, plumbing, home renovations, tax law, federal law, and even got some fishing in.
I think the expectations that you sit at a job for 40 years before you can live is old corporate propaganda to keep people working. The objective of working is to earn money, money to be spent living. Work to live. Don't live to work.
If you keep your skills sharp, you can always return when you have that passion again. Burn out doesn't last forever.
I think the expectations that you sit at a job for 40 years before you can live is old corporate propaganda to keep people working. The objective of working is to earn money, money to be spent living. Work to live. Don't live to work.
If you keep your skills sharp, you can always return when you have that passion again. Burn out doesn't last forever.
This is my dream. I love to sail / fish. But do you have a family? wife? I fear that this kind of thing will be impossible if I settle down, have kids etc.
Not since 2020… I wouldn’t have this lifestyle with kids. Not unless you have a really large vessel. I’m used to small confined spaces so it doesn’t bother me to sleep in what some would consider their closet.
This is exactly what I'm planning on doing, after the pets. Kudos.
But do you have a YouTube channel? (jk)
Are you working remotely with this set up?
Are you working remotely with this set up?
I don’t have a YT channel, seems like I should right? I work remotely and use starlink for internet access. It’s mounted between my solar panels.
As someone who's tried/trying, here are some thoughts from my experience (DevOps -> Jazz Musician)
- The general pay and flexibility of a tech job is too good, it's easy to forget how privileged it is to be in a position holding a tech job. A lot of people out there are struggling, the fact that we can imagine starting over (and maybe have the time and means to do so as an option) says it all
- It's hard to escape the curse of tech. Even when I stopped working in tech, I have to use a computer and the internet everyday...and old habits come back, enticing opportunities arise, savings are disappearing...
- Money is not everything, but a day's tech work of pay equaling a week's worth of gigs or teaching really makes it easy to say no, especially when you live in a expensive city with expensive rent. For two years I working harder trying to doing both at full throttle and it drained me. I think with the current capitalistic system, by design it's really hard for people to pursuit multiple professions without a large sacrifice, e.g., for the majority of jobs you need to work full-time to make ends meet, not leaving one much focus time for other pursuits
- I felt guilt that I was "wasting" my tech skills, given tech industry really helped in my upward mobility. I don't have lifestyle creep (I'm okay with descaling), but not being able to save money for situations where I could help my parents and whatnot in the future definitely made me feel at unease
- I did learn that I was pushing myself and it's much better to only work a few days a week, or take a few months off a year (if you're contracting). Prior I would never take a day off and wouldn't think twice about it, now I get more FOMO about all the things in life I do outside of tech
- Success in some fields outside of tech is different, and in some cases arbitrary. Say in the arts, the competitive culture is very much there, and there isn't a shortage, but weirdly I didn't care and do my own thing (even just making ends meet is often considered success)
- The general pay and flexibility of a tech job is too good, it's easy to forget how privileged it is to be in a position holding a tech job. A lot of people out there are struggling, the fact that we can imagine starting over (and maybe have the time and means to do so as an option) says it all
- It's hard to escape the curse of tech. Even when I stopped working in tech, I have to use a computer and the internet everyday...and old habits come back, enticing opportunities arise, savings are disappearing...
- Money is not everything, but a day's tech work of pay equaling a week's worth of gigs or teaching really makes it easy to say no, especially when you live in a expensive city with expensive rent. For two years I working harder trying to doing both at full throttle and it drained me. I think with the current capitalistic system, by design it's really hard for people to pursuit multiple professions without a large sacrifice, e.g., for the majority of jobs you need to work full-time to make ends meet, not leaving one much focus time for other pursuits
- I felt guilt that I was "wasting" my tech skills, given tech industry really helped in my upward mobility. I don't have lifestyle creep (I'm okay with descaling), but not being able to save money for situations where I could help my parents and whatnot in the future definitely made me feel at unease
- I did learn that I was pushing myself and it's much better to only work a few days a week, or take a few months off a year (if you're contracting). Prior I would never take a day off and wouldn't think twice about it, now I get more FOMO about all the things in life I do outside of tech
- Success in some fields outside of tech is different, and in some cases arbitrary. Say in the arts, the competitive culture is very much there, and there isn't a shortage, but weirdly I didn't care and do my own thing (even just making ends meet is often considered success)
>not being able to save money for situations where I could help my parents and whatnot in the future definitely made me feel at unease
Interesting point. Thanks for your post.
Interesting point. Thanks for your post.
I took early retirement from an office-based software consultancy job (aged 59) and started volunteering at a Raptor conservancy two days a week. It gave me a level of social contact - with the staff and other volunteers - that I liked and also meant working outdoors in all weathers, sometimes dealing with the general public. As I spent more time there I learned the ropes and could essentially just pitch up and find something to do. I was also trusted to work with the birds: not just de-pooping aviaries but helping to fly them in displays. And to monitor work experience students, and help host 'VIP' experience days, where paying members of the public (amazingly) saw me as having some expertise with the birds.
The downside was that I lost money doing it (transport costs and no pay) and some of the tasks were mundane and / or physically uncomfortable (e.g. cleaning waterbowls on a cold rainy January day). But overall I loved it, partly because the birds and environment were so appealing, but also because compared with my old life, when I went home at the end of the day, I had no keep-you-awake-at-night responsibilities to worry about. I was also really pleased to have progressed in a new 'career' where my old status and technical skills counted for nothing, and I had to earn trust from the much younger bird team by pitching in and doing physical stuff. This was for me the best thing.
The downside was that I lost money doing it (transport costs and no pay) and some of the tasks were mundane and / or physically uncomfortable (e.g. cleaning waterbowls on a cold rainy January day). But overall I loved it, partly because the birds and environment were so appealing, but also because compared with my old life, when I went home at the end of the day, I had no keep-you-awake-at-night responsibilities to worry about. I was also really pleased to have progressed in a new 'career' where my old status and technical skills counted for nothing, and I had to earn trust from the much younger bird team by pitching in and doing physical stuff. This was for me the best thing.
I'm on a hiatus from tech after nearly 20 years at a FAANG, I'm now an airline pilot.
The money sucks and the hours are long, but somehow the simplicity of the mission (go from A to B, don't bend any metal) appeals to me. Being able to switch the phone off after work, not having to worry about stupid office politics, planning, or performance reviews is quite liberating. The view from my office desk is unbeatable!
I'm sure this job will lose its lustre soon enough, and maybe I'll return to tech, but for now it's fun.
The money sucks and the hours are long, but somehow the simplicity of the mission (go from A to B, don't bend any metal) appeals to me. Being able to switch the phone off after work, not having to worry about stupid office politics, planning, or performance reviews is quite liberating. The view from my office desk is unbeatable!
I'm sure this job will lose its lustre soon enough, and maybe I'll return to tech, but for now it's fun.
> not having to worry about stupid office politics, planning, or performance reviews
You don't have performance reviews as a pilot? Maybe that should concern me next time I'm flying
You don't have performance reviews as a pilot? Maybe that should concern me next time I'm flying
Do any other fields of work have the insane performance review style as tech? None of my accountant, lawyer or doctor friends do.
For example at a previous tech company the levels were something like this (going by memory, not exact):
1 - Fails to meet expectations.
2 - Meets all expectations, delivers on time with only occasional mistakes.
3 - Exceeds expectations, delivers ahead of schedule with better quality than asked.
4 - Consistently invents new technologies and promotes them within the organization with demonstrable financial gain to the company.
5 - Invented the field (literally, that's what the description said!)
So unless you're one of a few people in the world (who didn't work for that company), it's impossible to be rated a 5. A 4 is also nearly impossible, sure maybe once a decade you might achieve that but nobody on earth does that every year.
Doing your job solidly well is clearly a 2, but a 2 is also seen as a straight road to RIF. In what other industry is that so?
So basically everyone is competing for 3 (mediocre bonus) or 2 (RIF). Sure, a few 4 and 5 get handed out to the friends of the VP but not for meeting that impossible criteria, only through politics.
For example at a previous tech company the levels were something like this (going by memory, not exact):
1 - Fails to meet expectations.
2 - Meets all expectations, delivers on time with only occasional mistakes.
3 - Exceeds expectations, delivers ahead of schedule with better quality than asked.
4 - Consistently invents new technologies and promotes them within the organization with demonstrable financial gain to the company.
5 - Invented the field (literally, that's what the description said!)
So unless you're one of a few people in the world (who didn't work for that company), it's impossible to be rated a 5. A 4 is also nearly impossible, sure maybe once a decade you might achieve that but nobody on earth does that every year.
Doing your job solidly well is clearly a 2, but a 2 is also seen as a straight road to RIF. In what other industry is that so?
So basically everyone is competing for 3 (mediocre bonus) or 2 (RIF). Sure, a few 4 and 5 get handed out to the friends of the VP but not for meeting that impossible criteria, only through politics.
Why do you think you need to achieve 4 or 5? Or even 3?
Salary in tech are so high that even with a mediocre bonus, it’s still a good life.
For the last two years, I aimed for just meet expectations. Easy job, no stress, just taking some time to relax.
Last few months, I decided to continue progressing in my career so I started taking more responsibilities.
The point is that work is not linear, it’s fine to relax a bit or even downgrade your role.
Salary in tech are so high that even with a mediocre bonus, it’s still a good life.
For the last two years, I aimed for just meet expectations. Easy job, no stress, just taking some time to relax.
Last few months, I decided to continue progressing in my career so I started taking more responsibilities.
The point is that work is not linear, it’s fine to relax a bit or even downgrade your role.
> Why do you think you need to achieve 4 or 5? Or even 3?
Because if you do a solid good job that's a 2, but a couple 2s fairly quickly gets you on the RIF train to getting fired. Which is nuts. So everyone has to outcompete their team trying to get those 3s. And the manager is put in the nasty position of having to rotate the 2s (which they must hand out since there's always quotas) among the team so that hopefully nobody gets RIFd while still meeting the quotas.
(Assuming a 5 point scale here, which is fairly common, but I've seen other scales but the same principles apply.)
My partner was a manager at the G of faang for many years and twice a year the whole month was blocked off for 60-80 hour weeks just to fill endless review paperwork. And their employees spend all of the six months between reviews scheming ways to fill that next round of paperwork. It's all a monumental waste of time, effort and cause of unnecessary stress for everyone.
None of this nonsense exists in other industries, at least as far as I know from talking about it with my circle of connections in other professions such as law, medicine, accounting.
Because if you do a solid good job that's a 2, but a couple 2s fairly quickly gets you on the RIF train to getting fired. Which is nuts. So everyone has to outcompete their team trying to get those 3s. And the manager is put in the nasty position of having to rotate the 2s (which they must hand out since there's always quotas) among the team so that hopefully nobody gets RIFd while still meeting the quotas.
(Assuming a 5 point scale here, which is fairly common, but I've seen other scales but the same principles apply.)
My partner was a manager at the G of faang for many years and twice a year the whole month was blocked off for 60-80 hour weeks just to fill endless review paperwork. And their employees spend all of the six months between reviews scheming ways to fill that next round of paperwork. It's all a monumental waste of time, effort and cause of unnecessary stress for everyone.
None of this nonsense exists in other industries, at least as far as I know from talking about it with my circle of connections in other professions such as law, medicine, accounting.
> Because if you do a solid good job that's a 2, but a couple 2s fairly quickly gets you on the RIF train to getting fired.
This definitely seems bad, but it’s not common in every tech company. Maybe is something in your company or city/country?
I worked in a few countries and I’m UK at the moment. Large corporations do have performance reviews, but there is no expectations that everyone needs to over achieve.
If your job is burning you out, maybe is worth it to look around for a new one. Is the high salary of FANG worth it? “Boring companies” can still pay good enough and have really interesting tech challenges.
> None of this nonsense exists in other industries, at least as far as I know from talking about it with my circle of connections in other professions such as law, medicine, accounting.
Maybe not in the same way, but they still have their own struggles to progress in their careers. The main difference is that the tech industry doesn’t have labor regulations and every company needs to do their career progression.
However, Law can be as bad on that, lawyers need to grind for years before getting seniority and higher salaries.
Medicine and accounting is extremely government regulated and you need to get specific certification to pass to the next role. So there is a lot of pressure to get those.
This definitely seems bad, but it’s not common in every tech company. Maybe is something in your company or city/country?
I worked in a few countries and I’m UK at the moment. Large corporations do have performance reviews, but there is no expectations that everyone needs to over achieve.
If your job is burning you out, maybe is worth it to look around for a new one. Is the high salary of FANG worth it? “Boring companies” can still pay good enough and have really interesting tech challenges.
> None of this nonsense exists in other industries, at least as far as I know from talking about it with my circle of connections in other professions such as law, medicine, accounting.
Maybe not in the same way, but they still have their own struggles to progress in their careers. The main difference is that the tech industry doesn’t have labor regulations and every company needs to do their career progression.
However, Law can be as bad on that, lawyers need to grind for years before getting seniority and higher salaries.
Medicine and accounting is extremely government regulated and you need to get specific certification to pass to the next role. So there is a lot of pressure to get those.
We have line checks, but if you're doing your job according to standard operating procedures, it's just like flying any other leg. Not something to lose any sleep over.
I used to dread every performance review in tech.
I used to dread every performance review in tech.
I mean what would increased performance mean in this case? You have to arrive at your destination at a specific time, if you go faster that is going to be a problem..
I heard an interesting podcast where they interviewed a German pilot. And he said that in order to get promoted(getting to fly a bigger plane, in his case) the only factor that counts is the years of experience. There is nothing a pilot can do (this might depend on the airline) to speed up this process. The reason is that they want to avoid pilots taking risks in order to "get better", like being faster, more fuel efficient etc.
Puts a different light on "demonstrating impact"
> I'm now an airline pilot
How did you make this move? I've day-dreamed about this, but curious to hear details from someone who did it.
How did you make this move? I've day-dreamed about this, but curious to hear details from someone who did it.
I started taking flying lessons about 7 years ago, and about 4 years ago I got my instructor certificate. I taught people how to fly on weekends and after work until my 1500 hours came up, then I applied to an airline and got a job.
The flight instructor thing was actually occasionally rewarding, especially when people landed the airplane by themselves for the first time. Seeing the look of joy and satisfaction on their faces is one of the better parts of this whole flying thing. :)
The flight instructor thing was actually occasionally rewarding, especially when people landed the airplane by themselves for the first time. Seeing the look of joy and satisfaction on their faces is one of the better parts of this whole flying thing. :)
Gotcha. You were a hobbyist before. That makes sense.
I hear you on the instruction. I used to teach climbing courses as a volunteer, and it was always nice watching people grow more confident.
I hear you on the instruction. I used to teach climbing courses as a volunteer, and it was always nice watching people grow more confident.
It's also possible to go to a cheap country to build hours on your bill and getting there faster. In Argentina you could get a wet hour of a Cessna 150 for $50. 1500 hours is 75Kusd. In two o three years you could be there
>The money sucks
Is this true? I thought Major Airline Pilots could make upwards of $200k per year. Or are you doing something smaller scale?
Is this true? I thought Major Airline Pilots could make upwards of $200k per year. Or are you doing something smaller scale?
It's like acting, there are actors and actresses that make millions, but there are so many people who WANT to do it that you have to eat shit for years to even get a chance at the top of the line.
But if you're willing to make $40k-60k you can start out at a small commuter line in a few months, and slowly work your way up from there.
But if you're willing to make $40k-60k you can start out at a small commuter line in a few months, and slowly work your way up from there.
The average seems to vary pretty widely depending on airline+seniority, but it also sounds like the major US airlines are beefing up pilot salaries over the next couple of years:
https://fortune.com/2023/03/01/delta-airlines-pilots-new-con...
https://fortune.com/2023/03/01/delta-airlines-pilots-new-con...
You start off low, it takes a few years to start making that kind of money. In terms of dollars made per effort expended, I think it's quite an easy job.
That sounds so appealing. I would love to learn more about how you got started on the path. Do you mind connecting with me through email (in my profile)
In some ways I feel lucky that tech was an early career change for me. I was trying to get a career in the arts off the ground, and it was going poorly. I was a recent grad millennial in the economy of the 2008 recession.
The decision to turn my back on what I thought was my passion was a profound spiritual experience. The decision to change came from outside of me. The decision of what path to follow was up to me though.
Tech was hiring and hiring like crazy, and I wasn't going to do an unprofitable degree twice so CS it was. I had a job before I graduated making 4x what my mom was making at her non-profit admin job.
If I hadn't pursued my art career first and had the chance to get deeply disillusioned with it, I would definitely be sitting at my desk trying to write code and thinking "what if... I'm not made for this... there's something else..." The truth is that I'm not cut out for the arts industry. I like stability, I like being salaried, I like having the upper hand in the hiring market (I know Big Tech is doing layoffs, but try spamming applications for a year to everything you can think of until the only place that calls you back is a cashier position at a grocery store. I have skills that are in demand now.) I like work that is decent and stimulating enough but which is definitely not "my passion" because that helps me keep boundaries on it.
I feel for folks who didn't get that chance to try out that other thing, who went straight into this career maybe because they wanted to, maybe because they didn't have the safety net I had that allowed me to do a second degree, maybe because life has held them down and change doesn't feel like an option. I've been out there with my chosen field and gotten burned hard by it so I'm content to stay put. It's definitely one of the cliche sayings about how the lows make the highs much higher.
I have no useful advice for anybody beyond their very early 20s facing this question. I know I would be eaten by this question if I hadn't already gotten my answer at the start.
The decision to turn my back on what I thought was my passion was a profound spiritual experience. The decision to change came from outside of me. The decision of what path to follow was up to me though.
Tech was hiring and hiring like crazy, and I wasn't going to do an unprofitable degree twice so CS it was. I had a job before I graduated making 4x what my mom was making at her non-profit admin job.
If I hadn't pursued my art career first and had the chance to get deeply disillusioned with it, I would definitely be sitting at my desk trying to write code and thinking "what if... I'm not made for this... there's something else..." The truth is that I'm not cut out for the arts industry. I like stability, I like being salaried, I like having the upper hand in the hiring market (I know Big Tech is doing layoffs, but try spamming applications for a year to everything you can think of until the only place that calls you back is a cashier position at a grocery store. I have skills that are in demand now.) I like work that is decent and stimulating enough but which is definitely not "my passion" because that helps me keep boundaries on it.
I feel for folks who didn't get that chance to try out that other thing, who went straight into this career maybe because they wanted to, maybe because they didn't have the safety net I had that allowed me to do a second degree, maybe because life has held them down and change doesn't feel like an option. I've been out there with my chosen field and gotten burned hard by it so I'm content to stay put. It's definitely one of the cliche sayings about how the lows make the highs much higher.
I have no useful advice for anybody beyond their very early 20s facing this question. I know I would be eaten by this question if I hadn't already gotten my answer at the start.
I feel very fortunate I had a similar experience. When I was younger I joined the Army and after that did construction. I look back at those experiences and I realize how lucky I am to be able to work in Tech. Unfortunately a lot of people jump into tech at 22/23 fresh out of school. They work 10 years and start to become disillusioned that tech work is bad because they have nothing to contrast it to.
I tech fast for 25 hours a week. No computer, no cell phone, no television, etc. It's amazing how much this sustains my motivation and enthusiasm. You can "switch" right now, at least 1/7th of the time. Not exactly what you're asking for but immediately actionable.
Is that a straight period of a day or so or do you do 3.5 hrs/day? How does this work?
We call that Shabbat
what do you do when you tech fast? read books?
Everything that isn’t tech is a very, very large set. What I assume the OP is really saying here is a “screen fast”. Reading is nearly the same activity for our text-scrolling-addicted brains. I recommend _anything_ outside even if it’s just sitting and staring. Eventually you’ll fill that time as long as you have discipline for no-tech.
Not OP but theres tons of stuff. Go to the gym, fish, go to the shooting range, visit a museum, find a super long nature trail and go as far as you can, etc. Even in small nowhere-towns there are tons of things to do when you let your imagination run wild. Finding stuff to do without computers is a skill we have as kids, but lose once we gain our careers.
I've been thinking about doing this! Also have considered ditching my phone, or downgrading to a dumb one. Yesterday for world book day I sat and read a book for the evening and it was wonderful, but I kept putting the book down to check things I'd just read on wikipedia or see if I had any emails. It was an eye opener to how much I do that on a normal day
Was this comment made outside your fasting window?
Alternatively, I set a 20 min daily timer for chrome on my phone, seems to help a lot.
Alternatively, I set a 20 min daily timer for chrome on my phone, seems to help a lot.
Is that like one day on a weekend? I actually thought that was normal (maybe the phone)
After working full time in a wide variety of tech since 1983 (embedded systems work on medical equipment and commercial fire alarm systems, hotel reservation systems, ramp and fuel delivery systems in aviation, multiple startups in Silicon Valley, etc, ad naseum) I’m currently taking a break and working as a pin setter mechanic at a couple of local bowling alleys. The work is physical (running up and down the back of the 40 and 64 lane alleys, climbing up on the machines) and challenging in its own way: the machines were designed in the 50s and are a complex assortment of pulleys, belts, gears, cams, levers, etc. There is even a mechanical “computer” that acts as a state machine directing the operations of the machine. I still get to use my problem solving skills but in a much more tactile way. Also, no pointless meetings, conference calls. Downside: the pay is terrible. Fortunately I’m in a position in my life where that is not nearly as important as it used to be.
This sounds just like the early Simpsons episode where Homer quits the nuclear plant to work a rewarding job at a bowling alley!
https://youtu.be/T4MjXFV3q_I
https://youtu.be/T4MjXFV3q_I
Pin-ball machines seem to have This Certain Zen, which when money is of less importance to me... perhaps I can fruitlessly explore (some day).
How did you get the experience to do this?
On the job training. Entry level pin setter mechanic training is fairly basic (Lock out tag out procedures, basic machine operations, simple trouble call resolutions (ball returns, re-spotting pins, that sort of thing)). Usually you'll be working with a full mechanic, learning how to do various repairs and preventive maintenance on the machines.
I'm working with the Brunswick A2 machines. Here's a link to the service manual if you're curious what these machines are like (PDF): https://brunswickbowling.com/uploads/document-library/Servic...
I'm working with the Brunswick A2 machines. Here's a link to the service manual if you're curious what these machines are like (PDF): https://brunswickbowling.com/uploads/document-library/Servic...
I was an early boot camper around 2012, taught myself the basics of web dev and did some contracting for about a year. I had some job offers but I didn’t feel right about the people and just the whole industry, so I moved back to the Midwest and ended up working in a factory. I’ve kept up with HN the whole time. I work very hard and my base wage isn’t that impressive but I can make 6 figures if I put the overtime in. It’s a tough but honorable way to make a living and I’m stronger mentally and physically that I ever would be in any sort of office environment. When I come home I’m totally guilt and worry free, I’ve done my part and earned my relaxation time. I plan on staying busy physically until 55 and making as much as I can. After that I’d like to consider doing something less physically demanding. My choice has its trade offs but I’m doing better every year and IT seems to constantly boom bust so I feel pretty confident in my choice.
Yes, I have gone back and forth. I always miss the money but not the stress. I've been a junior dev at Bank of America, then a contract dev salaried through robert half, and after than a lot of odd end jobs, then a dev for a small manufacturing tracking software company, then retail, now I'm teaching computer science in high school. This is probably the best job I've had. It still has stress and burnout, but summers and breaks help mitigate a LOT of that. That and never being called at midnight because of a prod issue is a plus.
Does teaching bring you sense of satisfaction?
I used to work in the industry for 9 years, got disillusioned working in tech and I moved to food, I've been working as a cook for the last 2 and a half years, it's something i wanted to do when i left high school and i always kept an avid interest in cooking while I had a tech job. Overall I think it's become more stressful for sure but I have found more meaning to my work, status and finance wise i would say its a completely different story, It's been very difficult trying to run my business and survive but i am trying my best, the economy hasn't been good. Also with regards to status, it's something that i never thought about previously but it has affected my dating and social life, people treat you very differently..
I would say where I live you get decent respect as a cook or pedicab driver compared to tech - probably because the tech salaries here are absurdly low.
Curious about this. Could you give me some idea of hourly and yearly* wages for cook, pedicab, junior software dev in your area please? I want to understand this phenomenon better. Thanks.
*The reason I mentioned hourly and yearly is that I'm wondering if a pedicab driver can put in 8 hour days like a cook or dev.
*The reason I mentioned hourly and yearly is that I'm wondering if a pedicab driver can put in 8 hour days like a cook or dev.
Yes, they can.
I quit my software dev job last April. Burned out and in a rough spot mentally. I worked as a dev for 8 years and it was great but changes to lifestyles and work life from Covid were taking a toll on me.
I hoped to become an electrician but that didn’t really work out due to circumstances outside of my control.
I work as a security guard now and have been doing this since October. Honestly never saw myself doing this job before but it turns out it’s a pretty sweet gig.
It’s low stress and low anxiety which is just what I needed. The people I work with aren’t your stereotypical security, maybe it’s because of the city I’m in but everyone is very nice and open minded.
I get to chill and read books for hours while I get paid. It’s the mental vacation I needed from programming.
I write about it occasionally on my blog.
I hoped to become an electrician but that didn’t really work out due to circumstances outside of my control.
I work as a security guard now and have been doing this since October. Honestly never saw myself doing this job before but it turns out it’s a pretty sweet gig.
It’s low stress and low anxiety which is just what I needed. The people I work with aren’t your stereotypical security, maybe it’s because of the city I’m in but everyone is very nice and open minded.
I get to chill and read books for hours while I get paid. It’s the mental vacation I needed from programming.
I write about it occasionally on my blog.
That is a massive switch, would have thought usually the other way round!
Yeah no doubt. There’s a couple people I work with that I’ve been helping out because they want to get into software development. So I try to point them in the right direction for learning resources and such and give them encouragement on their projects.
Quite a few people I work with are in school to move on to other things. It’s a great job for getting studying and homework done on shift.
Quite a few people I work with are in school to move on to other things. It’s a great job for getting studying and homework done on shift.
Other than some long-term entanglements I’ve basically retired from tech and started over as a music producer/touring DJ. Living the dream, but definitely feels like starting again from the bottom
https://soundcloud.com/obie
https://soundcloud.com/obie
Oh! That sounds awesome, my dream.
Did you had much music teaching as a kid? How was your path?
Did you had much music teaching as a kid? How was your path?
Just a little bit of piano. First turntables at 14. Bedroom producing since 2001
is your foreword @ Eloquent Ruby book?
I’m still in tech and absolutely still love AI / ML research.
That said, I’ve started a farm. Mostly because:
(a) I enjoy being independent and growing the majority of my own food enables that
(b) its very satisfying to provide for yourself and family
(C) there’s a very real possibility that AGI takes away many jobs; having land, your own resources, etc is real wealth
(D) I can work 100% remote and hire someone where I’m at to do much of the farm work ($20k out here is a good part-time job).
I’m into growing niche items (working on getting a registered highland cattle herd), organic honey, ginseng root, expensive flowers like snap dragons, etc - haven’t made a profit quite yet, but farms are tax deductible. So, if you’re still working, you can write off the losses. Once it’s up and running you then pay taxes, but you have a profit. Takes typically 3-7 years to make a profit though
Most profitably small farms focus on niche stuff. One of the neighbors runs a co-op selling raw milk at $15/gal and specialty pig meat.
I don’t think it’s super profitable by any means. That said my property value has doubled in the last few years and cows reproduce (literally growing in wealth).
That said, I’ve started a farm. Mostly because:
(a) I enjoy being independent and growing the majority of my own food enables that
(b) its very satisfying to provide for yourself and family
(C) there’s a very real possibility that AGI takes away many jobs; having land, your own resources, etc is real wealth
(D) I can work 100% remote and hire someone where I’m at to do much of the farm work ($20k out here is a good part-time job).
I’m into growing niche items (working on getting a registered highland cattle herd), organic honey, ginseng root, expensive flowers like snap dragons, etc - haven’t made a profit quite yet, but farms are tax deductible. So, if you’re still working, you can write off the losses. Once it’s up and running you then pay taxes, but you have a profit. Takes typically 3-7 years to make a profit though
Most profitably small farms focus on niche stuff. One of the neighbors runs a co-op selling raw milk at $15/gal and specialty pig meat.
I don’t think it’s super profitable by any means. That said my property value has doubled in the last few years and cows reproduce (literally growing in wealth).
Thank you for sharing your experience, I'm really interested in this! I daydream daily of going rural while still building technology, also I agree with you that real wealth like land is essential for the future given current trends for jobs (Adam Smith spoke in his time about the real wealth of owning land), I suspect but not sure completely that starting a family in a farm will be advantageous since most education could potentially be descentralized. Also interested in different economic communities for different scales (co-ops and such), I happen to have read several localist advocates.
That being said, do you have any resource material or references on this? I'm on the verge on making the move and I will be starting soon.
That being said, do you have any resource material or references on this? I'm on the verge on making the move and I will be starting soon.
I don’t have any particular material on this subject. I effectively just listed objectives, what I needed, searched for the correct land and started.
For instance, I was never particularly interested in high profit (that requires scale). I instead targeted minimal work and small income.
My one suggestion is to buy land with a house already on it. My land is not near my house, I planned on building a house on the land but it’s is a huge pain as it’s off grid. I’m slowly completing the necessary pieces.
I think you’d be best off scaling out slowly. Depending on what you want to do, you can often lease land. I found several farms already leasing their land and attempted to purchase (they fell through). When you try to start yourself there’s a lot of startup costs (hundreds of thousands). To mitigate that you can get 100 acres, lease 95 of it (someone else will farm it) and start small.
What I did required me to put all the money upfront and learn in real time. Much harder and imo not for the faint of heart.
Biggest thing that helped me was getting to know all the neighbors and meeting them ahead of time. Find a good community that’ll help (obviously you have to help back).
For instance, I was never particularly interested in high profit (that requires scale). I instead targeted minimal work and small income.
My one suggestion is to buy land with a house already on it. My land is not near my house, I planned on building a house on the land but it’s is a huge pain as it’s off grid. I’m slowly completing the necessary pieces.
I think you’d be best off scaling out slowly. Depending on what you want to do, you can often lease land. I found several farms already leasing their land and attempted to purchase (they fell through). When you try to start yourself there’s a lot of startup costs (hundreds of thousands). To mitigate that you can get 100 acres, lease 95 of it (someone else will farm it) and start small.
What I did required me to put all the money upfront and learn in real time. Much harder and imo not for the faint of heart.
Biggest thing that helped me was getting to know all the neighbors and meeting them ahead of time. Find a good community that’ll help (obviously you have to help back).
Got fired without warning from my first real programming job. It was probably personality differences with the company owner, but it did teach me that I am not built to work collaboratively on software.
Became a school bus driver. Quit when the school district was asking me to drive in an unsafe way. (Too fast for my experience level.)
Tried to become a helicopter pilot. The FAA grounded me for life.
Now trying to start a software business with software I wrote alone from scratch. It would be a professional services business, not selling the software, which will be FOSS.
I have a few backup plans if that fails. For example, I've already written a book when I was a teen, but didn't like it, so I deleted it. I'm trying to write another now.
I can only do this because my wife has a job. Thank goodness for her and her patience.
Became a school bus driver. Quit when the school district was asking me to drive in an unsafe way. (Too fast for my experience level.)
Tried to become a helicopter pilot. The FAA grounded me for life.
Now trying to start a software business with software I wrote alone from scratch. It would be a professional services business, not selling the software, which will be FOSS.
I have a few backup plans if that fails. For example, I've already written a book when I was a teen, but didn't like it, so I deleted it. I'm trying to write another now.
I can only do this because my wife has a job. Thank goodness for her and her patience.
hold up...you can't just say 'FAA grounded me for life' without sharing something about that story! I've never heard of anything like it...
Going straight to helicopters without flying airplanes first is not a typical path.
Going straight to helicopters without flying airplanes first is not a typical path.
Medical issue.
https://gavinhoward.com/2022/09/grounded-for-life-losing-the...
I'm hoping that the pilot shortage will eventually allow me to apply again, with more good history, and get a medical.
I chose helicopters because that part of the industry is not as volatile, and I was making the transition during COVID when the airlines were struggling.
https://gavinhoward.com/2022/09/grounded-for-life-losing-the...
I'm hoping that the pilot shortage will eventually allow me to apply again, with more good history, and get a medical.
I chose helicopters because that part of the industry is not as volatile, and I was making the transition during COVID when the airlines were struggling.
I'm currently finishing my second year of what was supposed to be a two year term (but was recently extended to three years) as the organ scholar [1] at one of the larger churches in the U.S. The director of music and I are the only two organists on staff, so I get to play for thousands of people and accompany/conduct a professional choir every week. I left the tech world to do that because I knew I wanted to at least try working in music at some point in my career. I am still working on several open source projects, so I haven't taken a complete break from software development.
I'm technically 3/4 time at the church, so I've been looking for a part time tech job to augment that for the last two years, but have found getting one quite difficult since there are so few available. I always assumed this foray into church music would be a break from technical work and I'd go back after I was done, but my two closest mentors are strongly encouraging me to go to graduate school for organ performance after I finish my term, as my undergraduate degree is in math. I'm also somewhat concerned about my viability as a candidate trying to re-enter the tech world after being away for a few years.
I'm not yet sure what I'm going to do next year. I'm definitely happier than I ever was working in tech, although I struggle with feeling like I'm looked down upon for "just" being a musician. I also worry about the long term financial impact (retirement) if I do stay in church music, as the pay is obviously much, much lower than I'd expect otherwise. Unlike most people in this thread, I took my break early in my career, so I don't have a large pile of savings to fall back on.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_scholar
I'm technically 3/4 time at the church, so I've been looking for a part time tech job to augment that for the last two years, but have found getting one quite difficult since there are so few available. I always assumed this foray into church music would be a break from technical work and I'd go back after I was done, but my two closest mentors are strongly encouraging me to go to graduate school for organ performance after I finish my term, as my undergraduate degree is in math. I'm also somewhat concerned about my viability as a candidate trying to re-enter the tech world after being away for a few years.
I'm not yet sure what I'm going to do next year. I'm definitely happier than I ever was working in tech, although I struggle with feeling like I'm looked down upon for "just" being a musician. I also worry about the long term financial impact (retirement) if I do stay in church music, as the pay is obviously much, much lower than I'd expect otherwise. Unlike most people in this thread, I took my break early in my career, so I don't have a large pile of savings to fall back on.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_scholar
Congratulations on that position! A sibling did a masters' in organ performance, and getting an Organ Scholar position is a solid achievement for an undergrad.
I would not worry too greatly about your skills not being viable, depending on what you are wanting to get back into later. If not in a SV/startup world, there are a lot of tech-adjacent companies who will look at you, see someone with an undergrad in math, a masters in something, and dedication to a technical craft, and strongly consider hiring you. Plus, you have something really interesting to talk about in an interview, and that's not worthless. I know the last time I was looking for a job, I got at least two interviews because of a very interesting previous job overseas (because the interviewers openly said, "you mat not have the typical experience we look for, but you had this job and tell us about that).
And thanks for your gifts to the congregation!
I would not worry too greatly about your skills not being viable, depending on what you are wanting to get back into later. If not in a SV/startup world, there are a lot of tech-adjacent companies who will look at you, see someone with an undergrad in math, a masters in something, and dedication to a technical craft, and strongly consider hiring you. Plus, you have something really interesting to talk about in an interview, and that's not worthless. I know the last time I was looking for a job, I got at least two interviews because of a very interesting previous job overseas (because the interviewers openly said, "you mat not have the typical experience we look for, but you had this job and tell us about that).
And thanks for your gifts to the congregation!
I am in the process of exploring a switch to become a vicar/pastor, which would obviously be a complete change!
It's not clear from your post what it is about tech that is demotivating you and without that it is hard to give good advice. But I'd caution against just leaving without having some clarity about what is next - i.e. discerning a positive pull. It may well be that your challenges/frustrations are only tangentially related to tech itself - could it be social, mental health, team/company, etc?
Flexible or part-time working is also something to explore - especially as you are not struggling financially. I've done variously 4 days or 9/10 days for the last 5 years or so and that's allowed me to do some volunteering on the off day, which has been a great change from sitting in front of a screen - as it's been physical and people-focused.
A sabbatical is another option. Take 3 or 6 months off, do something different, and you may rediscover a bit of passion for tech or otherwise figure out what you want to do next.
I also recommend chatting to friends/people you trust who know you well and might be able to give some wisdom/help you understand where the frustration is coming from.
And of course, if you do leave tech, you can always jump back in!
It's not clear from your post what it is about tech that is demotivating you and without that it is hard to give good advice. But I'd caution against just leaving without having some clarity about what is next - i.e. discerning a positive pull. It may well be that your challenges/frustrations are only tangentially related to tech itself - could it be social, mental health, team/company, etc?
Flexible or part-time working is also something to explore - especially as you are not struggling financially. I've done variously 4 days or 9/10 days for the last 5 years or so and that's allowed me to do some volunteering on the off day, which has been a great change from sitting in front of a screen - as it's been physical and people-focused.
A sabbatical is another option. Take 3 or 6 months off, do something different, and you may rediscover a bit of passion for tech or otherwise figure out what you want to do next.
I also recommend chatting to friends/people you trust who know you well and might be able to give some wisdom/help you understand where the frustration is coming from.
And of course, if you do leave tech, you can always jump back in!
I started a business outside of pure software and ran it from 2012-2023. It's probably still considered tech because we were making and selling electronic devices that had microcontrollers and still had software.
I also have a YouTube channel which I focused seriously on for a year or two. I decided I wasn't really enjoying it or making enough money to continue doing it seriously. I still publish videos and make about a thousand bucks a year.
I am now running a software startup which I founded in 2020. I plan on using the profits to buy a farm. I could probably buy a farm now, but I still want to build the startup and continue on with my current lifestyle for the time being. If that doesn't work out, I will farm in my backyard like I am doing already.
You might be able to "retire" now if you cut your expenses. My yearly budget for all expenses (medical, taxes, food, housing, transportation, vacation, hobbies, entertainment, etc.) is $32,000.
My budget margins are thin, but if nothing drastic changes, I should be able to continue at my current lifestyle in perpetuity. I am keeping my tech skills active if I need to go back to work at a "real job" at any point, but the plan is for the startup to be generating some revenue this year.
I also have a YouTube channel which I focused seriously on for a year or two. I decided I wasn't really enjoying it or making enough money to continue doing it seriously. I still publish videos and make about a thousand bucks a year.
I am now running a software startup which I founded in 2020. I plan on using the profits to buy a farm. I could probably buy a farm now, but I still want to build the startup and continue on with my current lifestyle for the time being. If that doesn't work out, I will farm in my backyard like I am doing already.
You might be able to "retire" now if you cut your expenses. My yearly budget for all expenses (medical, taxes, food, housing, transportation, vacation, hobbies, entertainment, etc.) is $32,000.
My budget margins are thin, but if nothing drastic changes, I should be able to continue at my current lifestyle in perpetuity. I am keeping my tech skills active if I need to go back to work at a "real job" at any point, but the plan is for the startup to be generating some revenue this year.
Very early in my career, I briefly took a non tech job to get out of one I hated.
I say briefly because I quickly found myself in a job that surrounded by 100 problems easily solvable with simple tech solutions, and started to do them- either because it saved me time or it was painful to watch other people do something painful slow when simple tools would do it— things like stitching together data files (basically a join) with a small C program because the ancient mainframe reporting system was limited in max char lengths from columns.
It was very fulfilling to be in a non-tech environment where my impact on things was so immediately tangible and useful, instead of a place where direct benefits were rarely apparent.
I say briefly because I quickly found myself in a job that surrounded by 100 problems easily solvable with simple tech solutions, and started to do them- either because it saved me time or it was painful to watch other people do something painful slow when simple tools would do it— things like stitching together data files (basically a join) with a small C program because the ancient mainframe reporting system was limited in max char lengths from columns.
It was very fulfilling to be in a non-tech environment where my impact on things was so immediately tangible and useful, instead of a place where direct benefits were rarely apparent.
Working software in a place that isn't mainly software is actually really great. I write the internal systems and occasionally work on the customer-facing websites and applications at a small local manufacturing company. Definitely better than my first job in RPA where I was constantly on a call with an uptight customer that gave vague descriptions of what they wanted, that then got upset when they had to call us 4 more times to fix what we built to their bad description. And it was nonstop crunch. No slowdown time in between customers and implementations. Just immediately on to the next one. Definitely painful.
> I write the internal systems and occasionally work on the customer-facing websites and applications at a small local manufacturing company.
How did you find this gig? I think I’d enjoy working in this way with complete control over the dev process while making a very tangible difference in reducing employee toil. Just don’t know how to find that. And also how’s money?
How did you find this gig? I think I’d enjoy working in this way with complete control over the dev process while making a very tangible difference in reducing employee toil. Just don’t know how to find that. And also how’s money?
It's not 100% control over everything as I occasionally work with a contracted dev studio that's building a couple large utilities that would take me individually a very long time to complete. So I work with them occasionally (but very infrequently - enough that it feels refreshing to collaborate when it happens).
I found it on Indeed. It looked just like any other "Software Engineering" job description on the listing, but when I came in for an interview, it was in a warehouse (with an office space) in an industrial zone, which had already intrigued me. Then the owner walked me through the warehouse and explained the products they sell, the machinery they use, the process of it all. Pretty cool to see where I fit in with my own eyes.
They run their own server on-site, too, so I've kinda gotten to be a sysadmin as well. Which I also enjoy. Mixes up my daily tasks and keeps things fresh.
I found it on Indeed. It looked just like any other "Software Engineering" job description on the listing, but when I came in for an interview, it was in a warehouse (with an office space) in an industrial zone, which had already intrigued me. Then the owner walked me through the warehouse and explained the products they sell, the machinery they use, the process of it all. Pretty cool to see where I fit in with my own eyes.
They run their own server on-site, too, so I've kinda gotten to be a sysadmin as well. Which I also enjoy. Mixes up my daily tasks and keeps things fresh.
Congrats, sounds neat!
I left tech ~6 years ago to pursue medical school. I'll be graduating and starting residency soon. A significant number of my classmates express regret for choosing medicine, and a lot of them fantasize about pursuing a career in tech, instead. I feel pretty well inoculated against this, having had a varied life and a collection of very different work experiences before med school.
I'm happy with my choice. My work still involves the computer, but I certainly don't spend most of my time on it. I get to interact with a wide variety of people, and sometimes I can make their days and lives a little better. My work is challenging and involves a lot of thinking and dealing with imperfect information. If I want to fold in skills gained from tech work in the future, there is no shortage of opportunities. Leaving tech for medicine was about the worst financial decision I could have made, but I would absolutely do it again. It's been a long road, but it was the right decision, I think.
I'm happy with my choice. My work still involves the computer, but I certainly don't spend most of my time on it. I get to interact with a wide variety of people, and sometimes I can make their days and lives a little better. My work is challenging and involves a lot of thinking and dealing with imperfect information. If I want to fold in skills gained from tech work in the future, there is no shortage of opportunities. Leaving tech for medicine was about the worst financial decision I could have made, but I would absolutely do it again. It's been a long road, but it was the right decision, I think.
I've been wrestling with this decision for a couple years now. I've slowly knocked off remaining pre-reqs, but haven't fully dived in - which would be leaving my job and becoming an MA or ED tech and doing dedicated MCAT studying.
I work for a tech company that you and your fellow classmates have no doubt used during medical school.
The massive financial hit is one of the big reasons I haven't made the jump. It doesn't feel fair to my wife to uproot our life. I always say if I won the lottery, I'd go to medical school.
Congrats on graduating and matching! I hope residency treats you well.
I work for a tech company that you and your fellow classmates have no doubt used during medical school.
The massive financial hit is one of the big reasons I haven't made the jump. It doesn't feel fair to my wife to uproot our life. I always say if I won the lottery, I'd go to medical school.
Congrats on graduating and matching! I hope residency treats you well.
Great hearing from you! I think you're taking a wise approach. I inverted things from the way that you did them-- I spent a year studying for the MCAT alongside work (had taken all the prereqs 10+ years earlier as a part of my degree). I used MCAT prep as a litmus test for my seriousness about the whole thing, and after it went well I quit my job to stack up post-bac courses and tick the various remaining application boxes.
It's funny that you say that about the lottery-- my wife and I were unsatisfied in our careers and were very focused on financial independence/early retirement and had set a pretty aggressive retirement date. As we were each thinking through what we would do on the other side of retiring, I realized I'd probably make the run at med school that I'd been considering for a long time. At that point, it stopped making sense to wait.
There's no question that it's a pretty significant upheaval. Fortunately, my wife has been very supportive throughout and even encouraged me at several points to make the jump. We had to move across the country, and we've had a kid in the process. Timing with COVID ended up working out well, as we don't really have the feeling of lost time and opportunity that others seem to.
Good luck in making your decisions from here-- it sounds like you've been thoughtful and intentional about the moves that you've made, and I hope you figure out what's best for you and your wife.
It's funny that you say that about the lottery-- my wife and I were unsatisfied in our careers and were very focused on financial independence/early retirement and had set a pretty aggressive retirement date. As we were each thinking through what we would do on the other side of retiring, I realized I'd probably make the run at med school that I'd been considering for a long time. At that point, it stopped making sense to wait.
There's no question that it's a pretty significant upheaval. Fortunately, my wife has been very supportive throughout and even encouraged me at several points to make the jump. We had to move across the country, and we've had a kid in the process. Timing with COVID ended up working out well, as we don't really have the feeling of lost time and opportunity that others seem to.
Good luck in making your decisions from here-- it sounds like you've been thoughtful and intentional about the moves that you've made, and I hope you figure out what's best for you and your wife.
I have been considering this, when I think about what I would do if I had freedom to do anything. The commitment is obviously daunting, but I am considering dipping my toes in some pre-reqs and MCAT to see how serious I would be about it.
I'm 29 now, just curious how that matches up to your timeline? Were there a good number of older students in your classes as well? Cheers and congrats on almost finishing!
I'm 29 now, just curious how that matches up to your timeline? Were there a good number of older students in your classes as well? Cheers and congrats on almost finishing!
Thank you! It's definitely worth dipping your toes, I'd say. I made the call to try it at 29 and matriculated at 32. There's one person in my class who is a decade older than me, another my age, and several who were in their late 20s when we started. The average age of med students is slowly climbing, and there are plenty of nontraditional students out there. I wish you success regardless of what you decide!
You could join the resource industry, there's a labor shortage and there's all sort of vocational training. Some jobs require minimal training others more but you can be up and running in as little as 3 months for something relatively skilled. It's a refreshing feeling to have a job where the deliverables are very specific and day to day like you need to move this crap from here to there and that's it, no thinking about tickets or infrastructure or having to liaise with 8 stakeholders, nah bro supervisor said you need to help the guy move the drill cores, that's it for the next 5 days.
There is such shortage of skilled contractors. It's unreal, so I've considered getting in via being an electrician.
The starting salaries always stop me though. How can I reset the salary clock 10 years?
Maybe if I had started out at 20 on this route I could do what my father did: carpet cleaning and supported two sons and a homemaker on his one truck operation. We were solid middle class. All the needs met.
It's amazing what quality hard work, calling people back, and time can do.
Better get back writing my self evaluation...
The starting salaries always stop me though. How can I reset the salary clock 10 years?
Maybe if I had started out at 20 on this route I could do what my father did: carpet cleaning and supported two sons and a homemaker on his one truck operation. We were solid middle class. All the needs met.
It's amazing what quality hard work, calling people back, and time can do.
Better get back writing my self evaluation...
> ...join the resource industry...
Would you kindly provide some examples? Would this be jobs like welding? I just never heard this term.
Would you kindly provide some examples? Would this be jobs like welding? I just never heard this term.
Interesting suggestion. Could somebody in their 40s who’s only ever had a desk job get into this?
[deleted]
Yes but it would be tricky without major savings.
One avenue might be to start doing IT work with and for a local electrician, and expand from there. If you're comfortable with computers, they could offer you as the low-voltage side of things.
One avenue might be to start doing IT work with and for a local electrician, and expand from there. If you're comfortable with computers, they could offer you as the low-voltage side of things.
You're talking about oil and gas extraction (as an example) right?
I know I’ve considered this, and though it’s at times felt irresponsible or impulsive, I can’t help but come back to this Emerson quote from Self Reliance:
> the finest genius studies at one of our colleges, and is not installed in an office within one year afterwards in the cities or suburbs of Boston or New York, it seems to his friends and to himself that he is right in being disheartened, and in complaining the rest of his life. A sturdy lad from New Hampshire or Vermont, who in turn tries all the professions, who teams it, farms it, peddles, keeps a school, preaches, edits a newspaper, goes to Congress, buys a township, and so forth, in successive years, and always, like a cat, falls on his feet, is worth a hundred of these city dolls. He walks abreast with his days, and feels no shame in not 'studying a profession,' for he does not postpone his life, but lives already.
> the finest genius studies at one of our colleges, and is not installed in an office within one year afterwards in the cities or suburbs of Boston or New York, it seems to his friends and to himself that he is right in being disheartened, and in complaining the rest of his life. A sturdy lad from New Hampshire or Vermont, who in turn tries all the professions, who teams it, farms it, peddles, keeps a school, preaches, edits a newspaper, goes to Congress, buys a township, and so forth, in successive years, and always, like a cat, falls on his feet, is worth a hundred of these city dolls. He walks abreast with his days, and feels no shame in not 'studying a profession,' for he does not postpone his life, but lives already.
I've moved from the private sector (consumer tech) to government research (contractor who works with many FFRDCs).
The cultural shift is, frankly, seismic.
The problems are no less important or impactful, but the timescale we're working on is years or even decades, so much of the all-out, balls-to-the wall constant stress you find in the startup/scaleup/consumer tech sphere is not there.
I still get to do impactful work, that I find more interesting at a consumer tech job. I took a ~10% pay cut (I'm not a SWE, so YMMV considerably on the size of pay cut you might take), but I'm super happy with the choice I made.
There are tons of federal research labs and opportunities out there hurting for software talent if you enjoy the practice but not the culture of most consumer software shops.
The cultural shift is, frankly, seismic.
The problems are no less important or impactful, but the timescale we're working on is years or even decades, so much of the all-out, balls-to-the wall constant stress you find in the startup/scaleup/consumer tech sphere is not there.
I still get to do impactful work, that I find more interesting at a consumer tech job. I took a ~10% pay cut (I'm not a SWE, so YMMV considerably on the size of pay cut you might take), but I'm super happy with the choice I made.
There are tons of federal research labs and opportunities out there hurting for software talent if you enjoy the practice but not the culture of most consumer software shops.
I've thought about doing government tech-related work, but I really do not like the federal government. Especially lately. Vaccine mandates would have pushed me out of the field anyways. It's like being forced to take contraceptives to be employed, so you don't get pregnant and fall out of work for a period of time. Seems like a large overstep, regardless of its efficacy.
It sounds like you're feeling inclined - I would recommend it. I had a great experience.
I knew I wanted to do another entrepreneurial role but not do so immediately. I didn't want a tech job.
I spent a few years in construction project management and it was a great experience. A huge change from the tech business world. Initially the money was pretty tragic. But it was fun! And it improved. Moving from high tech to construction is a little bit like entering another world. I found it fascinating.
During that period I also read Ray Kroc's (founder of McDonalds) book which includes him saying "When you're green you're growing. And when you're ripe, you rot."
I prefer to be green and growing. In my career I've encountered many people in a fairly robotic non-or-minimal growth mode. Each to their own.
My experience left me thinking the world would be even better if career switching was easier (for those that want to). I also theorised how I might include this in my next startup (time will tell…). During that period I progressed my vision and plans for my next startup. The period was invaluable. My new startup has been underway for some time now.
Good luck with your plans.
I knew I wanted to do another entrepreneurial role but not do so immediately. I didn't want a tech job.
I spent a few years in construction project management and it was a great experience. A huge change from the tech business world. Initially the money was pretty tragic. But it was fun! And it improved. Moving from high tech to construction is a little bit like entering another world. I found it fascinating.
During that period I also read Ray Kroc's (founder of McDonalds) book which includes him saying "When you're green you're growing. And when you're ripe, you rot."
I prefer to be green and growing. In my career I've encountered many people in a fairly robotic non-or-minimal growth mode. Each to their own.
My experience left me thinking the world would be even better if career switching was easier (for those that want to). I also theorised how I might include this in my next startup (time will tell…). During that period I progressed my vision and plans for my next startup. The period was invaluable. My new startup has been underway for some time now.
Good luck with your plans.
My girlfriend had a small coffeeshop. As time passed I found a passion to help her out with wares, logistics and even ideas. We bought small coffee roaster and started our own small local coffee brand recently. I feel a great motivation about it, but still stayed as an part time tech advisor for 2 startups/friends.
I've been passionate about coding since I was 14; I self-taught myself to code on school library computers during my lunch break, went to uni, was involved in some startups. I still enjoy coding (I'm 32 now) but I hate coding as a day job because I'm forced to do everything in ridiculously inefficient ways. I often think to myself; surely, if they force me to use these insanely wasteful, over-engineered tools, they shouldn't mind if I also add a little extra waste on top by watching cat videos during work hours or going extra slow... But the problem is that employers demand results in spite of simultaneously creating hurdles for you which make it harder to deliver those results.
Imagine that your job is to pick an apple from a tree. The tree is 100 meters from you, just as you are about to start walking towards the tree, your boss tells you "Not like that, you need to walk on your hands..." You try to explain to your boss why it's not the most efficient way to pick an apple but he tells you "You are mistaken because this is the industry standard; that's how all the big apple pickers are doing it" So you start walking on your hands... Then the boss insists that you need to climb onto a unicycle with your hands and traverse a pool of crocodile-infested water while juggling with your feet all while being suspended on a tightrope... But the whole time, the boss insists, and he is dead serious, that his only goal is to simply to pick the apple from the tree... But every time you try to point out that juggling upside down on a unicycle is not an efficient way to do it, your intelligence is called into question. That's what it feels like to be a senior software developer these days. So yes, I've thought of quitting.
Imagine that your job is to pick an apple from a tree. The tree is 100 meters from you, just as you are about to start walking towards the tree, your boss tells you "Not like that, you need to walk on your hands..." You try to explain to your boss why it's not the most efficient way to pick an apple but he tells you "You are mistaken because this is the industry standard; that's how all the big apple pickers are doing it" So you start walking on your hands... Then the boss insists that you need to climb onto a unicycle with your hands and traverse a pool of crocodile-infested water while juggling with your feet all while being suspended on a tightrope... But the whole time, the boss insists, and he is dead serious, that his only goal is to simply to pick the apple from the tree... But every time you try to point out that juggling upside down on a unicycle is not an efficient way to do it, your intelligence is called into question. That's what it feels like to be a senior software developer these days. So yes, I've thought of quitting.
I was a software developer for 3 years and decided it wasn’t for me as I enjoyed the outdoors much more. I had enough savings to take 6 months off where I took time to read books and try and discover something else I was excited about. I had a short stint in writing, and ended up very interested in agriculture. I then spent the entire next summer working on organic farms and traveling.
I eventually was running short on money, so started contacting as a cloud developer. I make more in six months as a contractor than I did as a full-time employee. I do not have benefits, but happen to be married to someone that does.
I have a greater appreciation for software after taking a six month break and working hard labor. I also realized how much I enjoy being an engineer. My plan now has been to contract six months on six months off for the inevitable future.
It’s been absolutely fantastic and am now exploring different types of engineering that fit my personality more. I also completed my career “flower” which taught me a lot about myself and my potential livelihood. I highly recommend that activity and got the idea from a book called “what color is your parachute?”
I eventually was running short on money, so started contacting as a cloud developer. I make more in six months as a contractor than I did as a full-time employee. I do not have benefits, but happen to be married to someone that does.
I have a greater appreciation for software after taking a six month break and working hard labor. I also realized how much I enjoy being an engineer. My plan now has been to contract six months on six months off for the inevitable future.
It’s been absolutely fantastic and am now exploring different types of engineering that fit my personality more. I also completed my career “flower” which taught me a lot about myself and my potential livelihood. I highly recommend that activity and got the idea from a book called “what color is your parachute?”
That sounds like a wonderful lifestyle!
I have a friend I just met recently who was a programmer (mostly CAD software, he says) back in the 80s-90s, but 19 years ago he married into a fishing family and has been a commercial fisherman ever since. You can do whatever you want, especially if you have a nestegg to bounce off of.
I have done many things, but I went from IT into being a Technical Director for animation. In my case my income went up, cause reasons, but I think for many folks in pure tech it would be a significant cut. But my coworkers are awesome, my work is fun, I'm pure remote from the shore of Lake Winnipeg. Life is great.
I can't generalize my experience onto the entire labour market, but from what I can see, the whole "gaps in your record" matters a lot less now than it did. My record is abysmal from that perspective, again because reasons, but in animation at least that really doesn't matter. I'm one of many autodidacts here.
I have done many things, but I went from IT into being a Technical Director for animation. In my case my income went up, cause reasons, but I think for many folks in pure tech it would be a significant cut. But my coworkers are awesome, my work is fun, I'm pure remote from the shore of Lake Winnipeg. Life is great.
I can't generalize my experience onto the entire labour market, but from what I can see, the whole "gaps in your record" matters a lot less now than it did. My record is abysmal from that perspective, again because reasons, but in animation at least that really doesn't matter. I'm one of many autodidacts here.
You need to manage loneliness. Almost no-one can do what you’re about to do, unless they had a similar tech career.
It might ironically be easier to start a company. At least you know half of the stuff (tech); and the other half you have to learn from scratch. But knowing one half is a bit like being talented when you learn the other half - it gives you a head start over all the MBAs.
It might ironically be easier to start a company. At least you know half of the stuff (tech); and the other half you have to learn from scratch. But knowing one half is a bit like being talented when you learn the other half - it gives you a head start over all the MBAs.
I'm currently in the nascent stages of transitioning from software engineering to practicing as a (Christian) spiritual director. I went through a two year training program a few years ago, and spent roughly 5-20 hours a month working with people (5 hours represents the number of individuals I see a month, 20 hours when I facilitating some group retreats through my parish). I'd love to move out of engineering completely in the next few years, but I'm still figuring out how to grow my practice enough to provide enough income. Much of my parish-related work is still done on a volunteer basis. I suspect I will need to find other part-time work to supplement income as a director.
There's also the not-so-small matter of providing good health insurance for my not-yet-adult kids. That change is probably another three to five years down the road.
There's also the not-so-small matter of providing good health insurance for my not-yet-adult kids. That change is probably another three to five years down the road.
Currently switching to agriculture with a 2 year part-time study. Only want to use my computer to do administration and code for hobby purposes. But source of income lays somewhere else. 25, no savings.
Went to work for our family farm after 20 years in various IT roles. Health problems with myself and my family who managed the farm were influencers for me to switch. I really enjoy the new balance of my work day. More or less is 50% spent on desk work (farm record keeping, paying bills, payroll, and of course small software dev projects). The other 50% is in the field planting, spraying, harvesting, etc.
I tried to switch to a different career twice:
1. Full-time musician. Too hard even if you are extremely talented and good at self-promotion. I am good at what I do but I am not a first-call instrumentalist or a charismatic frontperson.
2. Mental health field. I found that the starting pay was too low, didn't relish the idea of going to grad school again, and I found that the training process was too intense for me -- I require a lot of alone time and recharging time.
In both cases I wanted to switch because I had let myself burn out. A key to preventing burnout for me is finding a role where I don't have to sit in multiple meetings a day and where I can work less than 40 hours a week.
1. Full-time musician. Too hard even if you are extremely talented and good at self-promotion. I am good at what I do but I am not a first-call instrumentalist or a charismatic frontperson.
2. Mental health field. I found that the starting pay was too low, didn't relish the idea of going to grad school again, and I found that the training process was too intense for me -- I require a lot of alone time and recharging time.
In both cases I wanted to switch because I had let myself burn out. A key to preventing burnout for me is finding a role where I don't have to sit in multiple meetings a day and where I can work less than 40 hours a week.
I did for 2 years. Than I realized how much more tech pays. Then I went back.
Countrary to the popular opinion, I believe people tend to underestimate how much money they really need, until they (or their family) need medical care.
Countrary to the popular opinion, I believe people tend to underestimate how much money they really need, until they (or their family) need medical care.
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This isn't advice for anyone, but I quit my job when I decided that I'd rather die than keep working there (state government). That was July 7, 2005. I haven't worked since either. Somehow it happened to turn out OK.
You can take a look at the following (might find some ideas): www.bumfuzzle.com
"A couple of Minnesota suburban kids with a world-view that extended all of about twenty miles. It was big news when we upped and moved all the way to the big city of Chicago. Bigger news still, when we announced to the family just a couple years later that we were going to sail around the world. For four years we circumnavigated the globe aboard Bumfuzzle, our 35′ catamaran, returning a little more world-wise." And whole bunches more: "Bumfuzzle—twenty years under our keels and wheels. A life this good, we’re happy to have shared it all this time, and to have made so many friends over the years."
If I had actually been smart enough, I would have at least tried to go in their direction (starting in the 1960s, when I was young). Anyhow, me, I'm retired in Cuenca, Ecuador, living in an apartment right behind this place hotellosbalconescuenca.com/?lang=en , and things are not bad at all.
I'm spending my time learning how to think better, and studying whatever seems most interesting today.
You can take a look at the following (might find some ideas): www.bumfuzzle.com
"A couple of Minnesota suburban kids with a world-view that extended all of about twenty miles. It was big news when we upped and moved all the way to the big city of Chicago. Bigger news still, when we announced to the family just a couple years later that we were going to sail around the world. For four years we circumnavigated the globe aboard Bumfuzzle, our 35′ catamaran, returning a little more world-wise." And whole bunches more: "Bumfuzzle—twenty years under our keels and wheels. A life this good, we’re happy to have shared it all this time, and to have made so many friends over the years."
If I had actually been smart enough, I would have at least tried to go in their direction (starting in the 1960s, when I was young). Anyhow, me, I'm retired in Cuenca, Ecuador, living in an apartment right behind this place hotellosbalconescuenca.com/?lang=en , and things are not bad at all.
I'm spending my time learning how to think better, and studying whatever seems most interesting today.
Get a hobby (woodworking), something physical where you work with your hands (woodworking) and is easy enough to start but has near infinite depth (woodworking). Could be anything.
As I've become older and now own a house, I've really become a lot more interested in most trade work, such as electrician, plumber, construction, mechanic. I love getting my hands dirty and fixing/creating something physical... sure beats sitting in a chair.
Buying a house definitely inspired me to become more handy largely because most of the work is straight forward and it can be cheaper to do some repairs yourself. The caveat here is some can be more expensive cause you do the work twice or three times or hire a pro after you mess up. But that is what we call learning.
I agree, and will that said hobby is likely to be more effective if it partly, but not entirely, engages the same analytic & creative knowledge work skills that you've already honed by getting into tech in the first place.
for me, it's writing the dragon-as-protagonist fantasy novel I wish someone had already written.
There's a creative side (the world is whatever I say, mwahaha) but if you introduce the discipline to say 'my story should be publishable if i decide to go that route' then the analytic side comes up because there are relatively defined criteria a given story needs to contain in order to be publishable (total length, sequencing of action / reaction units, building scenes & sequels, viewpoint rules, description curtailments, etc.)
So - what is something that is not coding, but has a creative & analytic side to it that you could do as a side hobby? Woodworking is definitely that, writing a book is that, some people even seem to do side-gigs as their hobby, I'm sure it's even possible to make a video game hobby or a tabletop RPG hobby into those two pieces as well.
Just don't make your hobby 'I stare at the TV' level. 'I stare at the TV then blog about it' would even work.
for me, it's writing the dragon-as-protagonist fantasy novel I wish someone had already written.
There's a creative side (the world is whatever I say, mwahaha) but if you introduce the discipline to say 'my story should be publishable if i decide to go that route' then the analytic side comes up because there are relatively defined criteria a given story needs to contain in order to be publishable (total length, sequencing of action / reaction units, building scenes & sequels, viewpoint rules, description curtailments, etc.)
So - what is something that is not coding, but has a creative & analytic side to it that you could do as a side hobby? Woodworking is definitely that, writing a book is that, some people even seem to do side-gigs as their hobby, I'm sure it's even possible to make a video game hobby or a tabletop RPG hobby into those two pieces as well.
Just don't make your hobby 'I stare at the TV' level. 'I stare at the TV then blog about it' would even work.
Cooking has these qualities, too.
Absolutely. Or baking. I learned how to make sourdough last year and am now at the point where I make all the bread our family needs. Sourdough is especially deep because the steps are so simple on paper yet so full of nuance to explore. Easy to learn hard to master sort of situation.
Agree. Pizza baking is kind of the same, it is impressive how deep down the rabbit hole you can go with it.
can confirm - did exactly this. Plus big+immediate quality of life improvements from the work you do! Note: "woodworking" also includes composites and some plastics (metal and paper are different). Laser cutters and 3D printers add fascinating options, e.g. laser cut a template for use with a handheld router.
there's also an egalitarian community in "builders" and you'll find all sorts of friends who just-so-happen to also have interest/skills in this stuff.
there's also an egalitarian community in "builders" and you'll find all sorts of friends who just-so-happen to also have interest/skills in this stuff.
I second this. My thing is pottery. I started in January of 2021 and have been doing it ever since. It cost me 50 dollars for a few hour-long courses at a local studio and it has been an absolute godsend. The pure cosmic joy of seeing and feeling something come into existence quite literally in your hands is unparalleled.
> Could be anything.
How about something like woodworking?
How about something like woodworking?
Or they could start working with wood.
I had a burnout from tech about 15 years ago, took a year and a bit off for traveling.
Then had to go back to tech but did set clear boundaries like never doing unpaid overtime. Always clocking out at 5pm and not taking any shit.
That made a huge difference and I started enjoying tech again.
Then had to go back to tech but did set clear boundaries like never doing unpaid overtime. Always clocking out at 5pm and not taking any shit.
That made a huge difference and I started enjoying tech again.
I switched from DoD to biotech.
It was a long journey, and a lot of hard work, and a lot of luck. But I've managed to 'make it' just fine. I'm much happier with the choice.
One tip is to really make the choice, don't have a foot in the 'old world', so to speak. If you decided to change, you've got to put in some barriers to going back, because when the new thing gets tough, you're going to want to go back.
It was a long journey, and a lot of hard work, and a lot of luck. But I've managed to 'make it' just fine. I'm much happier with the choice.
One tip is to really make the choice, don't have a foot in the 'old world', so to speak. If you decided to change, you've got to put in some barriers to going back, because when the new thing gets tough, you're going to want to go back.
In 2007, I was done. I joined the military and went to Interrogation School. Those four years were some of the most insane years of my life. I wouldn’t do it again, I’m not even sure if I would recommend it.
I still “did tech” while in the military though. I bought a satellite dish in a war zone, and sold internet to my colleagues. I learned so much about networking, proxies, dealing with fair use problems, … it was kinda fun sometimes. Except when I just wanted to go to sleep.
Then this one time, I made some prank calling websites (using Skype under the hood, of all things. Twilio really made life easy!) and that shit got me in so much trouble. I was glad to shut it down.
Eventually, I bought a sailboat and worked at startups for a couple of years before meeting my wife. But man, than 5-6 year break was great for me. I highly recommend some kind of break if you think you need a break. As they say in sailing, “if you think you might need X, you do need X. Don’t wait until it’s too late.”
I still “did tech” while in the military though. I bought a satellite dish in a war zone, and sold internet to my colleagues. I learned so much about networking, proxies, dealing with fair use problems, … it was kinda fun sometimes. Except when I just wanted to go to sleep.
Then this one time, I made some prank calling websites (using Skype under the hood, of all things. Twilio really made life easy!) and that shit got me in so much trouble. I was glad to shut it down.
Eventually, I bought a sailboat and worked at startups for a couple of years before meeting my wife. But man, than 5-6 year break was great for me. I highly recommend some kind of break if you think you need a break. As they say in sailing, “if you think you might need X, you do need X. Don’t wait until it’s too late.”
Yes. I've been in tech for almost 5yrs though the salary is suitable for a living. But I felt empty each day. I've been bored and lack energy. I can't do what I must like. And then I finally found what a job is for me. I feel free, and I love what I'm doing. Been almost 2yrs here for fruit picking. I enjoy my job, and it gives me peace of mind.
Take this example: I really really want to be a rotary wing pilot and run search/rescue. Unfortunately the number of flight hours to get to that level requires 5-10 years of experience.
It truly would be a restart, and unlike software development, I'd have to move to where the job is, not the other way around like we're all used to.
Just something to consider.
It truly would be a restart, and unlike software development, I'd have to move to where the job is, not the other way around like we're all used to.
Just something to consider.
I left a very toxic job where I was the only dev 11 months ago.
Kinda been on sabbatical and living off savings.
I've done several other things outside of dev (farming, art modeling, rideshare and deliveries, clinical trial, retail, and am actually working as a dishwasher tonight)
Harsh reality has set in that I need to return to work though.
The thing is...for most people there's not much you can do that will even let you make close to half of what you'd make in tech.
I also found that I was stressing myself out at minimum wage jobs too (not even close to as bad as tech).
So I kinda concluded that you should make as much as you can if you're gonna be stressed (to an extent of course).
I don't have family or any big payments, debt. I live below my means. Just turned 30 and one thing I'm considering is working for next decade in tech and investing everything to retire in early 40s
I've done several other things outside of dev (farming, art modeling, rideshare and deliveries, clinical trial, retail, and am actually working as a dishwasher tonight)
Harsh reality has set in that I need to return to work though.
The thing is...for most people there's not much you can do that will even let you make close to half of what you'd make in tech.
I also found that I was stressing myself out at minimum wage jobs too (not even close to as bad as tech).
So I kinda concluded that you should make as much as you can if you're gonna be stressed (to an extent of course).
I don't have family or any big payments, debt. I live below my means. Just turned 30 and one thing I'm considering is working for next decade in tech and investing everything to retire in early 40s
Currently I'm doing a residency in diagnostic medical physics. It's a weird mix of physical labor to check out equipment, mathematical modeling, consulting with physicians, and reading regulations.
I left the tech industry in 2017, got into an MS in 2019, and now I have a year and a half to licensure — hopefully! I'm basically happy with the change, but it was a long road out — I had saved up $50k, which is all gone now.
There's a snag: I was diagnosed with cancer in 2021. Life comes at you fast. I might have a long career ahead (I'm 31) or I might not. I certainly could have done a lot more skiing in the past six years if I had just kept plugging away at the text editor. But I'm glad I went for it. Don't assume you have forever.
I left the tech industry in 2017, got into an MS in 2019, and now I have a year and a half to licensure — hopefully! I'm basically happy with the change, but it was a long road out — I had saved up $50k, which is all gone now.
There's a snag: I was diagnosed with cancer in 2021. Life comes at you fast. I might have a long career ahead (I'm 31) or I might not. I certainly could have done a lot more skiing in the past six years if I had just kept plugging away at the text editor. But I'm glad I went for it. Don't assume you have forever.
No, but I increasingly feel like becoming a farmer or just work picking fruit or something like that. I would like something different... maybe tourism, wine production... literally just anything but computers and especially code.
Picking fruit was my least favourite summer job as a teenager. I have several fruit trees in my yard now and while I love having that as a hobby, I still get pretty sick of picking peaches and that's just after two trees.
Yeah, picking fruit is the ur-example used in media of work “work Americans won’t do.” It fucking sucks.
That being said, yeah, I had friends who did it as teens. They hated it, fast food was a huge step up as far as a job for teens.
That being said, yeah, I had friends who did it as teens. They hated it, fast food was a huge step up as far as a job for teens.
After so many years behind a desk, working outside sounds fantastic. But it depends very much on the nature of the work. Physical labor in hot weather does not sound nice to me.
A friend of mine from Apple, a capable programmer who wrote one version of Apple's linker and also some books and libraries for Modula 2, left software development in the 90s and became a full-time painter and distiller, as well as a practitioner of Vajrayana Buddhism.
She passed away in the summer of 2021.
Her distillery, Delaware Phoenix, gained some positive reviews.
There's a memorial page about her here:
https://www.thegreatawakening.org/cheryl-lins-memorial-page
She passed away in the summer of 2021.
Her distillery, Delaware Phoenix, gained some positive reviews.
There's a memorial page about her here:
https://www.thegreatawakening.org/cheryl-lins-memorial-page
I did that by moving from a full-time tech job to teaching at a local classical-model high school part time and doing tech consulting work part time.
If you're feeling burnt out or bored by tech, you may want to try something similar -- tech was becoming non-fun for me at 55 hours/week, but is fun again at 10-15 hours/week. Plus you get to try out new things without waiting for retirement.
From a financial side, just make sure you've adjusted your expenses to be in line with what you're likely to make doing less tech (since most fields pay less), and implement those expense adjustments before you make a career change.
If you're feeling burnt out or bored by tech, you may want to try something similar -- tech was becoming non-fun for me at 55 hours/week, but is fun again at 10-15 hours/week. Plus you get to try out new things without waiting for retirement.
From a financial side, just make sure you've adjusted your expenses to be in line with what you're likely to make doing less tech (since most fields pay less), and implement those expense adjustments before you make a career change.
You know, there are lots of roles that involve all day communication in tech. If you need the social energy from your day job, this is also possible to find in tech as well by switching company and/or roles.
I've founded multiple startups (that have failed or had moderate success) and currently am bootstrapping at $5M ARR+. burnout is real and I've found a racquetball group out of my local fitness connection that plays 3x a week consistently and many players will coordinate in a whatsapp group to play even more.
The consistency and challenge of personally getting better/more skilled while being able to yell at the top of my lungs when I miss a shot helps relieve almost all of my pent up stress from work, family, life.
when I exit one day, i'm going into food truck business.
The consistency and challenge of personally getting better/more skilled while being able to yell at the top of my lungs when I miss a shot helps relieve almost all of my pent up stress from work, family, life.
when I exit one day, i'm going into food truck business.
I didn't, but a few friends have.
One now runs a couple of Airbnb places, one inherited and one bought - making the same money they used to make in a low/mid IT role in the UK - and working far far less. In fact they are starting to get bored but not yet too worried about that.
Another friend started a cupcake business which I thought was a poor idea as the market for cake in London was pretty saturated. 5 years in they have a few employees and are making great money - BUT they work so damn hard, as many or more hours as when they worked in IT. but for now they still love it.
One now runs a couple of Airbnb places, one inherited and one bought - making the same money they used to make in a low/mid IT role in the UK - and working far far less. In fact they are starting to get bored but not yet too worried about that.
Another friend started a cupcake business which I thought was a poor idea as the market for cake in London was pretty saturated. 5 years in they have a few employees and are making great money - BUT they work so damn hard, as many or more hours as when they worked in IT. but for now they still love it.
In general it's bosses and customers that constitute the difference between a job and a hobby.
If you get extremely lucky, good customers and good bosses can make a job more satisfying than a hobby. You're doing something for the greater good, rather than just for yourself.
But mostly it works the other way. You're working on what your customers and bosses tell you to do rather than what you want to do. Customers and bosses are the reason you dread going in to work.
Very few fields let you make a living without customers or bosses.
If you get extremely lucky, good customers and good bosses can make a job more satisfying than a hobby. You're doing something for the greater good, rather than just for yourself.
But mostly it works the other way. You're working on what your customers and bosses tell you to do rather than what you want to do. Customers and bosses are the reason you dread going in to work.
Very few fields let you make a living without customers or bosses.
Yes, I started my career outside of the tech industry as an English teacher for IT employees. However, I became increasingly curious about Blockchain and its applications, which eventually led me to transition into this field. I'm now happy to say that my curiosity has paid off, and I'm working in a job that I truly enjoy.
While it was a challenging shift, it was also incredibly rewarding. In fact, I'm now happily employed at Rather Labs, a company that has been instrumental in my career development.
You can check them out if you or anyone else is interested: https://www.ratherlabs.com
You can check them out if you or anyone else is interested: https://www.ratherlabs.com
[deleted]
I don't know if it counts. I was a programmer, worked for SaaS companies, and hated everything about that job, and sort of hated myself for doing it. Selling $60k/yr "solutions" to companies with the value proposition that they could lay off several people on their staff and replace them with our product.
I also hated being a front-end developer, because of the constant churn of new frameworks and techniques — "article driven development", where somebody releases a shiny new package or writes a neat article, and all the lemmings run in that direction for six months, before running in a different direction. I like programming, and still do it for fun, but it's such a different experience when you don't have to do it "at scale" and in a team environment.
I switched to doing design, which I sort of did already, and now work for a non-profit. My work is something I can more or less describe to my family and they don't have a glazed over look in their eyes. Still technically in "tech", but in a different corner of it, working in a different capacity (for less money...)
I also hated being a front-end developer, because of the constant churn of new frameworks and techniques — "article driven development", where somebody releases a shiny new package or writes a neat article, and all the lemmings run in that direction for six months, before running in a different direction. I like programming, and still do it for fun, but it's such a different experience when you don't have to do it "at scale" and in a team environment.
I switched to doing design, which I sort of did already, and now work for a non-profit. My work is something I can more or less describe to my family and they don't have a glazed over look in their eyes. Still technically in "tech", but in a different corner of it, working in a different capacity (for less money...)
I left tech about 20 years ago and moved into marketing. At the time, I facing the classic individual contributor (architect) vs management track dilemma. I’d chosen the latter and pretty much immediately regretted it. However, rather than switching back to a more hands on tech role, I jumped even harder into the world of marketing. I am entrepreneurial by nature and it was a lot of fun.
I’ve stayed tech-adjacent the whole time though. So, despite some very exciting times and decent compensation, I’ve always wondered what might have happened if I flipped back to tech or even jumped way outside the world of regular business entirely.
In any case, I can’t say I regret the change. I made it for the right choices. As you work your way through this decision, think about where you want to be in 20-30 years. Really try to see the day to day life you are living. What gets you excited in that future state? If you can see that, then go explore it.
From what you’ve said it sounds like you have a great opportunity to explore something new. Just remember that sometimes there’s no road back… and that’s 100% ok.
I’ve stayed tech-adjacent the whole time though. So, despite some very exciting times and decent compensation, I’ve always wondered what might have happened if I flipped back to tech or even jumped way outside the world of regular business entirely.
In any case, I can’t say I regret the change. I made it for the right choices. As you work your way through this decision, think about where you want to be in 20-30 years. Really try to see the day to day life you are living. What gets you excited in that future state? If you can see that, then go explore it.
From what you’ve said it sounds like you have a great opportunity to explore something new. Just remember that sometimes there’s no road back… and that’s 100% ok.
In my opinion management is only worth it if you own a large share of the company. Otherwise it's a headache without the upside and just lots of meetings.
Yep. That about sums it up, but to be fair compensation standards have changed quite a bit in 20 years. I didn’t see that one coming for sure or I would’ve stayed in the trenches.
Has anyone tried freelancing part time as a developer while starting their new career?
I am considering freelancing so I can focus on making and selling shoes. I don't need to go all in on making shoes right off the bat, but having an extra 4 hours a day to do the non-tech thing I enjoy doing would be great. I would still be making enough money to cover the bills while I work on the new career.
I am considering freelancing so I can focus on making and selling shoes. I don't need to go all in on making shoes right off the bat, but having an extra 4 hours a day to do the non-tech thing I enjoy doing would be great. I would still be making enough money to cover the bills while I work on the new career.
I worked just like that for a while, and eventually decided tech work was more reliable for me than my equivalent to your shoes concept.
As part of that experience, I did a bunch of personality theory research that tipped me off to this reliability factor (in myself! Not saying shoes won't work for you), and then it made sense. I switched my hold on the non-tech side to a more flexible improvisatory one. I do that whenever it strikes me as fun.
If I could go back in time though, I would have called myself a business owner sooner and dropped the freelancer label. For one, there's very little practical difference from a maintenance POV.
For another, the freelancer label is like broadcasting that you're probably not in it for long, and this limits your access to clients who are looking to show their boss they've hired a reliable resource.
With regard to hours, you can make tech and business ownership whatever it needs to be for you. I definitely didn't understand this principle in practice: Develop a working schedule spec for yourself and work to spec.
The spec isn't based on wishes or ideas. It's based on looking at your average work hours and effort last week, month, long before you got worn out. It's based on your realistic comfort level.
You will always have to push back gently when people invite you to out-do yourself (features, timelines, whatever), and if you give in, that state of things can definitely make you hate tech. It does take some refinement over time.
IMO everybody who does this for work should deploy a stable, specification-focused version of themselves at work, and a dev version at home.
You should get to work each day knowing you have awesome boundaries in place to protect your stress levels and also help you make your clients more successful. And you should have tech stuff to look forward to that's just for you.
Good luck with the shoe business by the way, that's really cool.
As part of that experience, I did a bunch of personality theory research that tipped me off to this reliability factor (in myself! Not saying shoes won't work for you), and then it made sense. I switched my hold on the non-tech side to a more flexible improvisatory one. I do that whenever it strikes me as fun.
If I could go back in time though, I would have called myself a business owner sooner and dropped the freelancer label. For one, there's very little practical difference from a maintenance POV.
For another, the freelancer label is like broadcasting that you're probably not in it for long, and this limits your access to clients who are looking to show their boss they've hired a reliable resource.
With regard to hours, you can make tech and business ownership whatever it needs to be for you. I definitely didn't understand this principle in practice: Develop a working schedule spec for yourself and work to spec.
The spec isn't based on wishes or ideas. It's based on looking at your average work hours and effort last week, month, long before you got worn out. It's based on your realistic comfort level.
You will always have to push back gently when people invite you to out-do yourself (features, timelines, whatever), and if you give in, that state of things can definitely make you hate tech. It does take some refinement over time.
IMO everybody who does this for work should deploy a stable, specification-focused version of themselves at work, and a dev version at home.
You should get to work each day knowing you have awesome boundaries in place to protect your stress levels and also help you make your clients more successful. And you should have tech stuff to look forward to that's just for you.
Good luck with the shoe business by the way, that's really cool.
I worked as a contractor for many years working 20 hours per week and using the rest of my time to work on my music career. I highly highly recommend that lifestyle if you can find a long-term contract and don't have a huge amount of expenses.
I’ve had 7 careers (art teacher, financial advisor, owned an insurance brokerage, marketing director, intrapreneur, product manager, and a venture lead/interim CEO at an AI venture studio).
After my last job I wanted to quit tech. I spent 18 months trying a bunch of different things (no-code, podcasting, illustrating, creating info products and courses, E-commerce, and micro-coaching). I now do a variety of things including co-founder for hire where I not only advise but roll up my sleeves to get first customers and put together a data backed go-to-market strategy. The beauty of the co-founder for hire gig is it’s 10 hours a week. I get to focus on the things in tech that I love without the mad hours, politics, and stress.
The thing is, you can always go back to tech. Taking a mid-career gap year/sabbatical is an amazing experience. You’re sure to learn a lot about yourself. Tech isn’t going anywhere.
After my last job I wanted to quit tech. I spent 18 months trying a bunch of different things (no-code, podcasting, illustrating, creating info products and courses, E-commerce, and micro-coaching). I now do a variety of things including co-founder for hire where I not only advise but roll up my sleeves to get first customers and put together a data backed go-to-market strategy. The beauty of the co-founder for hire gig is it’s 10 hours a week. I get to focus on the things in tech that I love without the mad hours, politics, and stress.
The thing is, you can always go back to tech. Taking a mid-career gap year/sabbatical is an amazing experience. You’re sure to learn a lot about yourself. Tech isn’t going anywhere.
I taught myself coding during high school in the mid-1990s, built a lot of my own web projects, and I worked for a series of startups. I've loved web dev for over 25 years.
A long-term coding contract recently ended for me, so I have been looking for some new full-stack web dev work. Everything I encounter now is tangled in over-engineered dependency hellscapes. Simple sites that could be vanilla HTML/CSS/JS are instead built and rebuilt on whatever tools and frameworks are currently trendiest. Technology is selected because it is cool instead of appropriate. I don't mind learning new tech if it's useful and fitting, but I loathe the 'disposable skills' of dumping frameworks every 2 years.
I've watched this tendency gradually growing in web dev circles for about a decade, but in just the past few years it's gone bananas. It's so much unnecessary faffing, it's got me looking into other fields for new work.
A long-term coding contract recently ended for me, so I have been looking for some new full-stack web dev work. Everything I encounter now is tangled in over-engineered dependency hellscapes. Simple sites that could be vanilla HTML/CSS/JS are instead built and rebuilt on whatever tools and frameworks are currently trendiest. Technology is selected because it is cool instead of appropriate. I don't mind learning new tech if it's useful and fitting, but I loathe the 'disposable skills' of dumping frameworks every 2 years.
I've watched this tendency gradually growing in web dev circles for about a decade, but in just the past few years it's gone bananas. It's so much unnecessary faffing, it's got me looking into other fields for new work.
Technology is not the problem the industry is the issue. Find somewhere with a low cost of living and other things you enjoy and do that while thinking about what tech you like for its own sake and try to figure out an entry point.
I enjoy working with my hands and making things and what I have decided is that I will pursue the 100 year form factor of a computer. It seems plausibly that nobody really wants to use a pointing device, keyboard, and display all day.
I doubt I will get anywhere but manufacturing is so cheap that I have built a small run factory and will try to produce parts using current parts combined in some form that can be maintained 100 years.
An individual in USA can totally fabricate their own reality and not engage in the hot conversations but producing gratifying work in technology. Some states like Vermont will kick start your reality with $10K for moving there. I find HN interesting because it contains content that transcends the Tech chatter of media.
Vt pays you 10k to mv there?
It looks like they may have reduced it.
https://thinkvermont.com/relocation-incentives/
https://thinkvermont.com/relocation-incentives/
I'm in the same boat, but as a contract engineer in science.
I have some cash savings, hate my day to day job, and dream of having a small machine shop producing aircraft parts (I'm a pilot and sell some aircraft parts on the side).
I think I'm too big of a pussy to turn down $150 an hour and find happiness (my current industry sucks and is is a cocktease).
I have some cash savings, hate my day to day job, and dream of having a small machine shop producing aircraft parts (I'm a pilot and sell some aircraft parts on the side).
I think I'm too big of a pussy to turn down $150 an hour and find happiness (my current industry sucks and is is a cocktease).
I realised that I would always feel like I needed just a bit more. So instead I cut all my expenditures, and moved somewhere with a very low cost of living.
I did the 'café / tea room / barista / baker' dream for a season, hard work but fun! and since the lock-down nightmare, I am back to playing around with some tech ideas.
Maybe my next project is a farm renovation, and some local up-cycling services, something towards 'save the planet'. Just fixing up an old espresso machine, great fun!
Anyway I am not sure I could go back to freelancing, I cant stand these modern tech stacks :( Am I the only one that feels like I need to write my own language, or even OS? Although Zig is looking good so far... and some unikernals have promise. All this CPU/GPU power and things seem to run slower than ever.
But yeah, I sympathize and would only say, dont wait to start living your dream.
I did the 'café / tea room / barista / baker' dream for a season, hard work but fun! and since the lock-down nightmare, I am back to playing around with some tech ideas.
Maybe my next project is a farm renovation, and some local up-cycling services, something towards 'save the planet'. Just fixing up an old espresso machine, great fun!
Anyway I am not sure I could go back to freelancing, I cant stand these modern tech stacks :( Am I the only one that feels like I need to write my own language, or even OS? Although Zig is looking good so far... and some unikernals have promise. All this CPU/GPU power and things seem to run slower than ever.
But yeah, I sympathize and would only say, dont wait to start living your dream.
Not me, but I used to work with a software developer who quit and became a train driver. As far as I know he's still driving.
I also know a guy who quit and became a Methodist priest, though I'm not sure he worked as a software developer much, he started at the seminary pretty quickly after finishing his first degree.
I also know a guy who quit and became a Methodist priest, though I'm not sure he worked as a software developer much, he started at the seminary pretty quickly after finishing his first degree.
Non FAANG brick and mortar company with need for IT and software is the most likely destination for SV departees.
Network Engineer > Front end Engineer > Hotel owner.
Retrained last year as a horticulturalist after 30+ years in IT and communications. I am fitter and healthier than I have been in decades. Pay rates in the industry are low but I am building up my own business and enjoying the lifestyle benefits. Thoroughly recommend it.
I've looked at doing this myself as gardening and plants are a passion of mine. Would you happen to have any advice?
I did a 6 months Cert III in horticulture, a Permaculture Design Certificate and read and watched as much as I could. Every day is a school day and I am still learning. Not sure about where you are but here in Western Australia the paid jobs in horticulture are very low paying (my 2 day forklift licence is worth more in the work place) but one of those jobs could be worth considering for the learning opportunity - I have been working part time in a nursery whilst I build up clients for my own garden maintenance business.
This sounds interesting. Could you give some more information on what is required in terms of training, and work opportunities?
See my other reply re training, employers here in WA generally want a Cert III minimum. There are jobs available but the pay is pretty poor. There are plenty of industries paying better for equally physical work (albeit not in a garden environment) and not requiring certification.
Yes, I started my career outside of the tech industry as an English teacher for IT employees. However, I became increasingly curious about Blockchain and its applications, which eventually led me to transition into this field. I'm now happy to say that my curiosity has paid off, and I'm working in a job that I truly enjoy.
While it was a challenging shift, it was also incredibly rewarding. In fact, I'm now happily employed at Rather Labs, a company that has been instrumental in my career development.
You can check them out if you or anyone else is interested: https://www.ratherlabs.com
While it was a challenging shift, it was also incredibly rewarding. In fact, I'm now happily employed at Rather Labs, a company that has been instrumental in my career development.
You can check them out if you or anyone else is interested: https://www.ratherlabs.com
I'm in the midst of creating a financial planning firm serving tech professionals looking to take sabbaticals and mini-retirements (i.e., my former self).
Probably too early to give you an informed opinion but I've enjoyed the ride this far. I have professional excuses to continue learning new things and I get to feel like I'm helping people while occasionally building useful tech tools for my practice.
My colleagues are generally kind nerds, which fills my soul, and I've really enjoyed connecting with them over the past year and a half. Admittedly, I've been exceedingly fortunate in having a large buffer and low personal expenses.
Probably too early to give you an informed opinion but I've enjoyed the ride this far. I have professional excuses to continue learning new things and I get to feel like I'm helping people while occasionally building useful tech tools for my practice.
My colleagues are generally kind nerds, which fills my soul, and I've really enjoyed connecting with them over the past year and a half. Admittedly, I've been exceedingly fortunate in having a large buffer and low personal expenses.
[deleted]
Hello! I've been transitioning out of tech to psychotherapy! http://glench.com/WhyIQuitTechAndBecameATherapist/
Driving in to the office to my software support and development role I would see roadworkers and pray for a brain dead job where I just needed to do simple things to help people and could enjoy the sunshine and outdoors.
After a downturn in my contracting gigs I trained in traffic. It is NOT as well paid as you think! And standing for 8 to 10 hours is physically damaging. And the boredom is not brain-dead it is soul destroying.
I am back in IT and very thankful!
After a downturn in my contracting gigs I trained in traffic. It is NOT as well paid as you think! And standing for 8 to 10 hours is physically damaging. And the boredom is not brain-dead it is soul destroying.
I am back in IT and very thankful!
I feel like that a lot and I think it can happen with any profession. When you turn your interests and hobbies into a profession, you are bound to reach a point when you don't enjoy it anymore. I think a better, and a more balanced, approach is to keep some distance between your work and passion/hobbies.
This allows you to enjoy your hobbies without being bogged down by usual bureaucracy/pressure that you might deal with at work. So, continue working in tech (maybe reevaluate your role, amount of responsibility etc) and take music lessons, volunteer, join sport leagues, take pottery lessons etc.
This allows you to enjoy your hobbies without being bogged down by usual bureaucracy/pressure that you might deal with at work. So, continue working in tech (maybe reevaluate your role, amount of responsibility etc) and take music lessons, volunteer, join sport leagues, take pottery lessons etc.
The folks who dunnit successfully are probably not reading your question though.
Not me, but a friend: did a PhD at UCLA, went to Canada to teach, got deep into STEM and other stuff. He loved the field but hated the job.
Started making cheese on the side, and he later turned that into a full-time cheese consultant business. Eventually worked for restaurants and local providers, few gigs with large dairy concerns, travel to areas to help set up literal cheese caves, etc.
Almost certainly makes less, way less, money than before but seems happy. Dude has a lot of connections and knows like every kitchen in the city, can rock up to restaurants and knows half the staff, etc.
Started making cheese on the side, and he later turned that into a full-time cheese consultant business. Eventually worked for restaurants and local providers, few gigs with large dairy concerns, travel to areas to help set up literal cheese caves, etc.
Almost certainly makes less, way less, money than before but seems happy. Dude has a lot of connections and knows like every kitchen in the city, can rock up to restaurants and knows half the staff, etc.
I went back to school to get a teaching certificate and taught middle school for three years, a couple of summers at a high school, and three more years as a college lecturer (aka adjunct).
I'm back in tech now, which took hard work getting up to date. I was out for ten years and basically missed a whole lot, such as containers, cloud as the path of least resistance, and React. On the other hand, Linux and Python haven't gone out of style.
I enjoyed my time teaching and the perspective gained. I don't regret it, and I did learn more about my own strengths and weaknesses.
I'm back in tech now, which took hard work getting up to date. I was out for ten years and basically missed a whole lot, such as containers, cloud as the path of least resistance, and React. On the other hand, Linux and Python haven't gone out of style.
I enjoyed my time teaching and the perspective gained. I don't regret it, and I did learn more about my own strengths and weaknesses.
A few years ago I was similarly burned out. A friend invited me to interview with his tech deployment team. I spent a really fun 18 months on it before coming back to coding.
The job entailed flying on site to warehouses (Amazon), different ones every week, and installing, integrating, or upgrading on site hardware with new control software.
The hours could be brutal sometimes. I was away from home M-F most weeks. But it was fun and it was a great team of people to work with.
All this to say: there are jobs out there that will let you do something new, but will take advantage of your technical skills.
The job entailed flying on site to warehouses (Amazon), different ones every week, and installing, integrating, or upgrading on site hardware with new control software.
The hours could be brutal sometimes. I was away from home M-F most weeks. But it was fun and it was a great team of people to work with.
All this to say: there are jobs out there that will let you do something new, but will take advantage of your technical skills.
I guess everybody that DID go ... aren't around here to tell :D
Public services announcement:
GO fishing, do not pass GO and collect USD200 going into I.T., go straight to fishing!
My perfect spot: a damn on a winefarm, angling there would be.... blish
Public services announcement:
GO fishing, do not pass GO and collect USD200 going into I.T., go straight to fishing!
My perfect spot: a damn on a winefarm, angling there would be.... blish
There really aren't many (if any) other career paths that will pay so well that you could upskill in and reach pay parity in a few years.
You could try something like a PM/BA role, orientated more around the user and stakeholder management. It's less tech focused and more time communicating with others but probably equally stressful.
I have a friend that bought a coffee shop in a midsize affluent town. Long days, always something going wrong beit staff sickness, stock shortage or maintenance. Kept it up for about 5 years, sold it on and went back into sales.
You could try something like a PM/BA role, orientated more around the user and stakeholder management. It's less tech focused and more time communicating with others but probably equally stressful.
I have a friend that bought a coffee shop in a midsize affluent town. Long days, always something going wrong beit staff sickness, stock shortage or maintenance. Kept it up for about 5 years, sold it on and went back into sales.
Personally, I used to be very passionate about coding. but over time I've realized that I'm more excited about products/design and working with great people. I know that going into management is often frowned upon among engineers, but I personally love it because I can continue to work on products without constantly banging my head about compiler errors or annoying bugs. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's possible to be passionate about building products without having to sit and code all day.
[deleted]
I took a job making gears (no experience required), and while it was less than half the pay of the IT admin job I had previously, I left feeling like I accomplished something, and didn't worry about things at night. Then Covid hit, and I've had long Covid ever since.
It was not a wise financial decision, but I'm fortunate that we've got a very low cost of living worked out.
Making gears was very rewarding, but the commute and the pay sucked.
It was not a wise financial decision, but I'm fortunate that we've got a very low cost of living worked out.
Making gears was very rewarding, but the commute and the pay sucked.
yep my wife and I.
we retired from tech ( startups) at 50. In order to keep out minds working AND make a buck we decided to both trade options. Luckily for us we have chums who own a trading environment that teaches people, like us, how to do this effectively and so we set off on our adventure. Very quickly into this I decided to code up a trading analysis dashboard which gave us guidance as to the REALITY of our approach. This coded in Python and Dash based on the math taught to us by a good chum who is a retired floor trader from the Cboe. Pretty successful one I might add. We read the financial times ONLY twice a week ( Fri and Sat) to find out what others are thinking but our REAL trading happens in the math. So I suppose it's an amalgam of tech and new adventure. The trading takes about 20 minutes a day and for the rest to the time we are out and about having fun in Chicago. I'm looking at a language called Julia to move to from Python but that is NOT going well and I am planning on chatting to the Carbon people next month. Hope this helps a little
What is your general approach? Selling premium? Earnings announcements?
Do you frequent any online communities of professionals, or is it just you, your spouse, and your mentors?
Beyond wanting to learn alternative approaches myself, I help moderate a local trading group. We are always looking for presenters in our monthly meetings.
Do you frequent any online communities of professionals, or is it just you, your spouse, and your mentors?
Beyond wanting to learn alternative approaches myself, I help moderate a local trading group. We are always looking for presenters in our monthly meetings.
Yes we sell premium. I suggest you listen to the www.tastylive.com people, they are pretty sharp and realistic.
We do NOT listen to anyone but the math and our mentors who help us add realism to the approach. Pure math is ok but, as Simons showed, you need a little guesswork in there. We use graphical representations of complex data sets ALA Tufte.
Please don't do this. Virtually all day traders lose money and the ones that don't are almost certainly running on luck. If you really had an edge in the market you would open a hedge fund and rake in billions. Everyone else is just playing the law of large numbers and the winners happened to flip 50 tails in a row.
I agree but trading OPTIONS is not day trading. It is based on probability and DURATION. Selling premium allows you to pick your duration,probability of profit and value at risk. This is NOT day trading which is financial sugar. This is the message that tastylive.com advocates. I am NOT compensated by them but they ARE people I trust and respect.
>I agree but trading OPTIONS is not day trading. It is based on probability and DURATION.
Idk if you bought a course from them or what or why you are convinced that trading Options, at home as a non professional trader is somehow NOT day trading.
>Selling premium allows you to pick your duration,probability of profit and value at risk. This is NOT day trading which is financial sugar.
So you have non zero probability of profit which you are almost certainly miscalculating and some value at risk. Aka you are not guaranteed to make money and if the market does something unexpected you will in fact lose it. You seem to THINK you are more sophisticated or safer than the average Robinhood options trader but you really aren't...
Idk if you bought a course from them or what or why you are convinced that trading Options, at home as a non professional trader is somehow NOT day trading.
>Selling premium allows you to pick your duration,probability of profit and value at risk. This is NOT day trading which is financial sugar.
So you have non zero probability of profit which you are almost certainly miscalculating and some value at risk. Aka you are not guaranteed to make money and if the market does something unexpected you will in fact lose it. You seem to THINK you are more sophisticated or safer than the average Robinhood options trader but you really aren't...
Nope options allow you to choose your probability so it's NOT 50/50. We tend to sell premium with prob of profit of 80 - 90% it's less premium
YOU are mistaken.
YOU are mistaken.
Lol ok this guy thinks he stumbled upon a free money machine where can make money on 90% of trades. Day Traders are among the most delusional people on the planet.
you REALLY don't understand this do you. The entire options market is based on this principal. I have NO idea where you get the idea we day trade. I will try again as it seems that serious investors are reading this thread.
Our approach is to pick a underlying which has an attractive premium for our risk tolerance. To do so we normally look for something whose price is > $50, has high liquidity and has a implied volatility which is attractive to us. We also consider the historical volatility trend for 20 10 5 days and compare it to the 30d implied vol to get a feel for it's cheapness. THEN we look at the 45 day option and SELL premium against that. We tend to look for a probability of profit of 70 -80% and that defines the premium.
In short it's NOT day trading, it's NOT a magic formula and it's NOT a scam. Should anyone wish to listen to ACTUAL serious traders working everyday to help retail investors then look at tastylive.com. Again, I am NOT being paid for this. I just am answering the OP's question regarding what we did post 5 startups to keep us busy. Our approach allows us to risk 25 % of our capital ( just in case it goes wrong we don't lose everything) we get about 10 - 30% return on 100% of our capex. we use the kelly criterion to define our thinking regarding when to get out when we get it wrong. We mostly use naked puts but in the current environment we consider back ratios or spreads. Does ANY of this sound like day trading or some magic formula. I don't really care about your opinion but I wanted to ensure that anyone reading this thread could have something to reality check against other than your "comments"
Our approach is to pick a underlying which has an attractive premium for our risk tolerance. To do so we normally look for something whose price is > $50, has high liquidity and has a implied volatility which is attractive to us. We also consider the historical volatility trend for 20 10 5 days and compare it to the 30d implied vol to get a feel for it's cheapness. THEN we look at the 45 day option and SELL premium against that. We tend to look for a probability of profit of 70 -80% and that defines the premium.
In short it's NOT day trading, it's NOT a magic formula and it's NOT a scam. Should anyone wish to listen to ACTUAL serious traders working everyday to help retail investors then look at tastylive.com. Again, I am NOT being paid for this. I just am answering the OP's question regarding what we did post 5 startups to keep us busy. Our approach allows us to risk 25 % of our capital ( just in case it goes wrong we don't lose everything) we get about 10 - 30% return on 100% of our capex. we use the kelly criterion to define our thinking regarding when to get out when we get it wrong. We mostly use naked puts but in the current environment we consider back ratios or spreads. Does ANY of this sound like day trading or some magic formula. I don't really care about your opinion but I wanted to ensure that anyone reading this thread could have something to reality check against other than your "comments"
Hey, thanks for the detail here. Are you modeling in the increased IV due to upcoming earnings announcements? Do you hold anything in its run-up to earnings or through an earnings announcement?
Are you using OptionNet Explorer or OptionVue, or just your own software using the math you learned from your CBOE friend?
Interesting to hear about trying to use the Kelly criterion. I've always thought of it for bet sizing, which is tough since you never know your true odds (unlike counting cards, for instance).
For my own trading, I am having moderate success with selling premium on index options. I find it tough to make a meaningful amount of money while keeping blow-up risk low.
Are you using OptionNet Explorer or OptionVue, or just your own software using the math you learned from your CBOE friend?
Interesting to hear about trying to use the Kelly criterion. I've always thought of it for bet sizing, which is tough since you never know your true odds (unlike counting cards, for instance).
For my own trading, I am having moderate success with selling premium on index options. I find it tough to make a meaningful amount of money while keeping blow-up risk low.
There is a continuum between making $0 and billions as a trader.
Interested to hear more about your experience with Julia!
I was in Silicon valley for most of my time, lucky to have Tom Perkins as our Chairman and Ceo for our first startup as he taught us how to ignore the "shiny" tech. Our experience with Julia has led us to believe that it's a language with a great future behind it. We're going to work with the Carbon guys to highlight lessons learnt.
I look forward to any blogs or publications you have forthcoming.
sorry, not sure why we would post a blog or write anything on this topic. It's just our practical experience based on trying to use julia. What I can say is that we were VERY impressed with DataFrames.jl and Pluto.jl the people on discourse were excellent. In fact the community was top notch but there were too many red flags for us. I think the Carbon people seem to be taking an interesting route and we will discuss our issues with Julia with them when we meet up. This could be a case where late moving advantage pays off. Sorry to have given you the impression we would write anything.
If you have the means, volunteering is totally choice.
No but I know a c++ guy who burned out, bought a sports accessories shop, went bankrupt and now he is refreshed and back at coding again :')
I'm in the process of switching careers _again_. I come from a different background and I moved to Software development ~10 years ago. I'm a skydiving instructor and also a commercial pilot and trying to find out which kind of pilot I want to be (avoiding the airlines, looking for bush flying, firefighting, etc). Life is too much fun to have only one career
Fugro's geophysical suurvey division runs million+ line kilometre surveys across the planet - from planes, ships, and ground vehicles.
There's work there for pilot-operators unflustered by aquisition software and instrumentation.
A lot of that work is flying dead straight lines @ 70 m/sec for 20-50km at 80m ground clearance with minimal deviation and a gut twisting turn at the end to drop into a parallel line on the return leg .. for max flying hours per day.
There's work there for pilot-operators unflustered by aquisition software and instrumentation.
A lot of that work is flying dead straight lines @ 70 m/sec for 20-50km at 80m ground clearance with minimal deviation and a gut twisting turn at the end to drop into a parallel line on the return leg .. for max flying hours per day.
I don't know if they have a similar thing where you are, but we have the Royal Flying Doctor service in Australia. Essentially, it's someone who flies a doctor into remote locations when they're hours away from a hospital, or an ambulance won't be able to make it.
Some really great stories here. Mine is really boring. I was a software dev./architect for 23 years and have been a bus driver for three.
You should try branching out hut don’t lose your networking and don’t let your skills slip until you know for sure you don’t want to go back. (or perhaps can’t go back because AI is doing everything for us)
You should try branching out hut don’t lose your networking and don’t let your skills slip until you know for sure you don’t want to go back. (or perhaps can’t go back because AI is doing everything for us)
Didn’t quit my tech job but I’m a (very very low level) pro Muay Thai fighter on the side. Honestly tech has quite a few benefits in terms of work though I think on its own it can seriously induce burnout.
Personally I think that having any kind of balance is a good idea. Even if engaged in another field I can imagine I’d have something to complement whatever it was.
Personally I think that having any kind of balance is a good idea. Even if engaged in another field I can imagine I’d have something to complement whatever it was.
This is basically my FIRE plan. I want to be a mechanic on high end cars / folk’s toys. I made an attempt, but I had to relocate which stopped this plan from succeeding, and I now need a lot more capital to FIRE.
I look forward to wrenching instead of sitting all day. Which I know is ironic because I know a lot of mechanics who feel exactly the opposite.
I look forward to wrenching instead of sitting all day. Which I know is ironic because I know a lot of mechanics who feel exactly the opposite.
Laid off from a tech job after 20+ years. Retrained as a teacher, which was something I was also interested in. Lower salary and more hours but both OK. Went back into tech (not FAANG like) after 5 years, partly because I missed out on always working on something new (only so many ways to teach Pythagoras to Year 9 pupils).
After a decade as a software engineer I became a nurse. It has its pros and cons. The defining difference is shift work vs project work. In California the pay is similar to tech which is a plus. Also watching all my previous teammates get laid off during the tech downturns is a motivating factor.
I have a friend who gave up a very good salary to be a baker. He baked a lot during COVID and loved it. He seems very happy -- and is living with the money he gets.. he wasn't/isn't rich, was in the start of his tech career (5y in I think)
I am finishing my masters in clinical psychology this year. Not 100% sure where to I'll bring it from there, but it definitely broadened my thinking and helped to be more open-minded. I guess a takeaway is, consider a non-STEM education if you have an inclination for it.
How is clinical psychology non-STEM?
You can learn programming and get a lucrative career without a CS degree.
Are there other fields where that is possible?
Are there other fields where that is possible?
Sales (can easily pull 200k OTE with 3-5 years of exp), tech recruiting (easily make 150k with ~ 5 years of experience if you focus on SWE/tech), design (companies are dying for product designers right now)
How do you get started in sales? This is something I’ve been curious about but I’m not super extroverted so I don’t even know if it’d work. And also, zero experience.
I'd say you gotta start somewhere like customer support/service, become an expert on the products you support, build relationships internally. Know the competition very well. You can't walk off the street and start selling SaaS to SMD or Enterprise. Alot of sales people come from adjacent roles.
Finance? Sales?
I moved to a non tech company a few years ago. I run the phones and file server and program a few machines we sell. Its nice having a physical product to be proud of, and its enjoyable doing helpdesk for a very small company.
I used to work at web hosts and such.
I used to work at web hosts and such.
Well, I considered leaving everything and doing a circus degree but then I got injured and that's it.
I probably wouldn't have left the sector fully though.
The money is too good and I enjoy the work. The only problem is dealing with corporate culture.
I probably wouldn't have left the sector fully though.
The money is too good and I enjoy the work. The only problem is dealing with corporate culture.
A former boss of mine shut down her web development company, sold her house in the city, moved to the country and started over as a stone mason. Last I heard it was going pretty well.
Almost every industry has the same pressures as tech but pays less.
If my tech career fizzles out, I'm going back to roofing.
Standing on top of buildings with a flamethrower (for commercial roofs) > sitting at a computer all day.
Standing on top of buildings with a flamethrower (for commercial roofs) > sitting at a computer all day.
Move to Arkansas. Buy a farm. Raise Chickens, Cows and pigs. Plant a BIG garden.
Learn something new. Apply what you know to the the new thing that you learned.
Have FUN!
Learn something new. Apply what you know to the the new thing that you learned.
Have FUN!
I have literally been thinking about this today. Probably suffering from boredom and some burnout in current role.
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I would actually like to be a doctor but it’s not really feasible starting down that route in my 30s
It is feasible, but it's not something i would recommend doing because it won't solve the underlying issues that causes your unhappiness. Also most people severely underestimate the stress in this job. I've met quite a few doctors who would be equally happy having a cushy job in tech instead of night shifts.
A doctor’s job is definitely much more stressful than a tech job. You are dealing with people’s lives every day and a misdiagnosis could possibly lead to someone’s death. Seldom do you have that level of responsibility in a tech job.
All we can really say is some doctors jobs are more stressful than some tech jobs. A podiatrist, for instance. It's critical work if you have a foot problem and a lot of pain, but it's not the same life and death situation as a ER doctor. On the other hand, if you're responsible for, say, Google or 911 being up, I dare say there's a very high level of responsibility.
It is feasible actually. Graduated med school with two people in their late 30s, early 40s. You didn't ask for it but be forewarned: it'll take 10 years before you have a realistic taste of what the job actually is like. I don't usually speak in absolutes, but I will confidently claim that no amount of shadowing, training, volunteering in clinics/hospitals, or family will provide you with a shortcut to that experience. Could talk for days about this, but I have a cloud to go yell at.
> it'll take 10 years before you have a realistic taste of what the job actually is like.
And if you're taking out loans to go to school, you may have no choice but to continue even if you find out it's not for you. I know someone who's halfway through med school and clearly hates everything about it, but is past the point of no return financially. If she doesn't finish and become a working doctor, she'll never have the income to pay back her debt of several hundred thousand dollars at 7% interest.
And if you're taking out loans to go to school, you may have no choice but to continue even if you find out it's not for you. I know someone who's halfway through med school and clearly hates everything about it, but is past the point of no return financially. If she doesn't finish and become a working doctor, she'll never have the income to pay back her debt of several hundred thousand dollars at 7% interest.
That’s what scares me. Putting in all that time and taking out all those loans to find out you actually hate it.
Same. Specifically I would want to be a pharmacologist. There are two major barriers that prevented me from considering this route:
I'm a fairly terrible student and 8 years of school wasn't gonna happen. I can't stand blood/body parts. Even if I got through school I don't think I could stomach a clinical position.
I'm a fairly terrible student and 8 years of school wasn't gonna happen. I can't stand blood/body parts. Even if I got through school I don't think I could stomach a clinical position.
I'm considering the same. Approaching 30 and I've been at FAANGs for half a decade, but I'd love to grab a Doctorate in Physical Therapy and transition away from computing. Not sure how feasible it is in terms of time though... seems like 2 years for pre-reqs and then 3 more years for the DPT program?
If anyone has attempted this I would love to talk.
If anyone has attempted this I would love to talk.
MD in your 30s, early 30s especially, is possible. Some schools happily accept nontrad applicants, and most will take you if you have a strong background and clear interest.
Now, starting down the MD in your late 40s? Early 50s? Yeah, probably not.
You still have time, just not much.
Now, starting down the MD in your late 40s? Early 50s? Yeah, probably not.
You still have time, just not much.
What’s interesting to read about this is I’m a doctor who wants to transition to tech.
i almost went to med school until i found out about the grueling 24 hour residency shifts. absolutely pointless torture that hurts patients and doctors alike. makes being on call for prod look easy
I accepted an offer to switch from my first engineering job to what would have been my 2nd with a 25k+ pay bump. With some help weighing hypotheticals via the question "what's the worst that could happen?" with my therapist, I realized I could give in to my frustrations (with myself) and face my (unfounded) fears and pursue music as a career full-time. I am, and have been, financially able to do this. So I told job #2 I was changing course but maintained the course of leaving job #1. Turns out, taking the new job offer was the impetus I needed to make the break from job #1.
I just turned 37 and I've been playing guitar and writing songs since I was around 15. I studied music in college and then lived in Hollywood for a while where I studied guitar and audio engineering, played one-off gigs with people and played as a member of a few other bands (in some of which we wrote original music) --- but I never thought to pursue the songs I WROTE solo. They were a different style than what I played in the other bands and I thought they were "too sappy" and that I wasn’t good enough. I was paralyzed by feelings of unworthiness, inadequacy, and the fear of judgment.
Eventually I left the bands, moved back home to Chicago, did some part-time work and then got a sales job. I got sick of that, learned to code, and got a coding job, which I actually REALLY enjoyed (finally! Something I enjoyed doing that I was good at and that paid really well!). But something was STILL nagging at me. I went on a week-long retreat called the Hoffman Process. There I realized there was POWER in vulnerability and that my fear of vulnerability was keeping me from pursuing my music. Like magic, after turning my phone back on after the retreat, I received a message from a very close friend of a video he, for whatever fateful reason, dug up from Facebook of me playing a song I wrote back in 2009, this was 2019. I probably cried in that moment. It felt like the universe sending me a message. I watched and listened to the video of a 22-year-old me playing an original song and realized - my songs were GOOD! I found it so sad that I had written such good songs over a decade ago and let them fade into oblivion rather than honoring them, and myself, by recording and releasing and sharing them!
I started digging up all my old songs (turns out there were a lot!) and even writing NEW songs! I re-learned the old songs, practiced them, and after a year when I started getting anxious again, I started recording demos. When I started getting anxious once again a year or so later, I quit my coding job. I found a local studio and engineer and I've been recording for about a year. Now I'm mixing my first single and working on finding the balance between practicing music, studying music marketing, doing all the other work to "make it" as a musician, and general self-care. But one thing is for sure: no more wavering. I’m not going back to sales, coding, or switching to anything else. I am a musician, songwriter, recording artist, and whatever else this develops into.
On one hand, I regret and grieve the time I "wasted" being too scared to take this path. And on the other hand, this is my story. My story is now my "brand". It's my message. I want to inspire others, through my music and my voice in general, not to live in fear. Maybe saying "to find their passion" is too cliché, so I'll say to listen to their true, authentic selves and to honor that. To own their truth and empower themselves to stand up and have the courage to be vulnerable, different, potentially judged and even ridiculed or "canceled"! (You probably won’t be canceled.)
In recent years I've experienced chronic low-back pain, which is a story unto itself - yet it's 100% related. When we suppress our true selves, our true selves fight to come out, and that can translate to both psychological and physical manifestations. (I’ve also experienced depression and anxiety.) If I lost you here I'd strongly encourage you to keep an open mind. You don't grow as a human being by writing off anything that goes against your current paradigms - when I began to discover all of this, it certainly ran against mine. I expect most of this crowd to lean open-minded. If you're new to ideas like this, or curious to learn more, I would STRONGLY encourage you to read The Myth Of Normal, a very recent book by Gabor Maté. He is my current spirit animal.
I'm SO SO grateful to be on the path I'm on now and I have SO many people and experiences to thank. Not to mention the gratitude I have towards myself for getting myself to this point, for facing my fears, for honoring my truth. Maybe the transition from coding to music I described above sounded easy, but I assure you it was not. I was 36 and terrified to tell my parents! But they were super chill about it, and my dad even followed up to tell me how proud of me he was (happy tear)! NOBODY CARED. NOBODY TOLD ME I WAS AN IDIOT (one friend expressed some skepticism, but THAT’S GONNA HAPPEN! You need to have just enough confidence in yourself and can’t rely on the whole world to cheer you on! Both internal and external doubts are guaranteed, the secret to success is to plow ahead anyways! I am very well acquainted with doubt by now. Doubt comes to my parties uninvited and can’t be forced to leave. I have accepted this and I continue partying anyways.)
We all have fears around infinite things in our lives. When fear, anxiety, depression, chronic physical ailments, or even illness arises in you, I encourage you to take some time to reflect on what's happening in your life and in your thoughts, often well beneath the surface (this is rarely easy). Journaling is a great tool for me. Find your tools and use them. Honor yourself.
You don't have to "do something great," but I believe you should deeply and constantly examine your beliefs, the expectations you have for yourself, and the expectations that you believe others have for you. What do your parents expect for you? What does your partner expect of you? What do your friends, colleagues, children, or siblings expect of you? Is that even true? Is there evidence? What do you expect for yourself? Why??? Think about what you have wanted for yourself at different times in your life, especially when you were younger, before the pressures of our society began to disguise themselves as your own desires. If you’re looking for more inspiration, I suggest reading the book Mastery by Robert Greene. Sounds like OP has some other skills and interests which, if pursued, may lead to a source of potent intrinsic motivation which makes for great potential for eventual monetization.
Once you have an inkling of some path you think you might like to take, or that you wish you had taken years, maybe decades, ago, reflect more on that path and ask yourself "what's the worst that could happen?"
I just turned 37 and I've been playing guitar and writing songs since I was around 15. I studied music in college and then lived in Hollywood for a while where I studied guitar and audio engineering, played one-off gigs with people and played as a member of a few other bands (in some of which we wrote original music) --- but I never thought to pursue the songs I WROTE solo. They were a different style than what I played in the other bands and I thought they were "too sappy" and that I wasn’t good enough. I was paralyzed by feelings of unworthiness, inadequacy, and the fear of judgment.
Eventually I left the bands, moved back home to Chicago, did some part-time work and then got a sales job. I got sick of that, learned to code, and got a coding job, which I actually REALLY enjoyed (finally! Something I enjoyed doing that I was good at and that paid really well!). But something was STILL nagging at me. I went on a week-long retreat called the Hoffman Process. There I realized there was POWER in vulnerability and that my fear of vulnerability was keeping me from pursuing my music. Like magic, after turning my phone back on after the retreat, I received a message from a very close friend of a video he, for whatever fateful reason, dug up from Facebook of me playing a song I wrote back in 2009, this was 2019. I probably cried in that moment. It felt like the universe sending me a message. I watched and listened to the video of a 22-year-old me playing an original song and realized - my songs were GOOD! I found it so sad that I had written such good songs over a decade ago and let them fade into oblivion rather than honoring them, and myself, by recording and releasing and sharing them!
I started digging up all my old songs (turns out there were a lot!) and even writing NEW songs! I re-learned the old songs, practiced them, and after a year when I started getting anxious again, I started recording demos. When I started getting anxious once again a year or so later, I quit my coding job. I found a local studio and engineer and I've been recording for about a year. Now I'm mixing my first single and working on finding the balance between practicing music, studying music marketing, doing all the other work to "make it" as a musician, and general self-care. But one thing is for sure: no more wavering. I’m not going back to sales, coding, or switching to anything else. I am a musician, songwriter, recording artist, and whatever else this develops into.
On one hand, I regret and grieve the time I "wasted" being too scared to take this path. And on the other hand, this is my story. My story is now my "brand". It's my message. I want to inspire others, through my music and my voice in general, not to live in fear. Maybe saying "to find their passion" is too cliché, so I'll say to listen to their true, authentic selves and to honor that. To own their truth and empower themselves to stand up and have the courage to be vulnerable, different, potentially judged and even ridiculed or "canceled"! (You probably won’t be canceled.)
In recent years I've experienced chronic low-back pain, which is a story unto itself - yet it's 100% related. When we suppress our true selves, our true selves fight to come out, and that can translate to both psychological and physical manifestations. (I’ve also experienced depression and anxiety.) If I lost you here I'd strongly encourage you to keep an open mind. You don't grow as a human being by writing off anything that goes against your current paradigms - when I began to discover all of this, it certainly ran against mine. I expect most of this crowd to lean open-minded. If you're new to ideas like this, or curious to learn more, I would STRONGLY encourage you to read The Myth Of Normal, a very recent book by Gabor Maté. He is my current spirit animal.
I'm SO SO grateful to be on the path I'm on now and I have SO many people and experiences to thank. Not to mention the gratitude I have towards myself for getting myself to this point, for facing my fears, for honoring my truth. Maybe the transition from coding to music I described above sounded easy, but I assure you it was not. I was 36 and terrified to tell my parents! But they were super chill about it, and my dad even followed up to tell me how proud of me he was (happy tear)! NOBODY CARED. NOBODY TOLD ME I WAS AN IDIOT (one friend expressed some skepticism, but THAT’S GONNA HAPPEN! You need to have just enough confidence in yourself and can’t rely on the whole world to cheer you on! Both internal and external doubts are guaranteed, the secret to success is to plow ahead anyways! I am very well acquainted with doubt by now. Doubt comes to my parties uninvited and can’t be forced to leave. I have accepted this and I continue partying anyways.)
We all have fears around infinite things in our lives. When fear, anxiety, depression, chronic physical ailments, or even illness arises in you, I encourage you to take some time to reflect on what's happening in your life and in your thoughts, often well beneath the surface (this is rarely easy). Journaling is a great tool for me. Find your tools and use them. Honor yourself.
You don't have to "do something great," but I believe you should deeply and constantly examine your beliefs, the expectations you have for yourself, and the expectations that you believe others have for you. What do your parents expect for you? What does your partner expect of you? What do your friends, colleagues, children, or siblings expect of you? Is that even true? Is there evidence? What do you expect for yourself? Why??? Think about what you have wanted for yourself at different times in your life, especially when you were younger, before the pressures of our society began to disguise themselves as your own desires. If you’re looking for more inspiration, I suggest reading the book Mastery by Robert Greene. Sounds like OP has some other skills and interests which, if pursued, may lead to a source of potent intrinsic motivation which makes for great potential for eventual monetization.
Once you have an inkling of some path you think you might like to take, or that you wish you had taken years, maybe decades, ago, reflect more on that path and ask yourself "what's the worst that could happen?"
I've met many who did:
One guy who was so into classical piano that he went back to grad school and got his degree in music. Now he gives lessons, last I heard.
Another guy who became a piano tuner. There's good steady, if not spectacular money in that.
Two people who became teachers or teachers' aides. The teacher had a fairly unhappy experience, while the teachers' aide said it was the best job he ever had.
One of the Xerox Star 6-person functional spec team (the one who's completely disappeared and no one knows where he is) became a homeopathic doctor.
Edit: another guy became a kitchen cabinet installer.
One guy who was so into classical piano that he went back to grad school and got his degree in music. Now he gives lessons, last I heard.
Another guy who became a piano tuner. There's good steady, if not spectacular money in that.
Two people who became teachers or teachers' aides. The teacher had a fairly unhappy experience, while the teachers' aide said it was the best job he ever had.
One of the Xerox Star 6-person functional spec team (the one who's completely disappeared and no one knows where he is) became a homeopathic doctor.
Edit: another guy became a kitchen cabinet installer.
Those people are people less likely to be reading HN, no?
I have heard some people talk about leaving for woodworking and stuff like that, but most people in my circle who get burnt out just stop doing government contracts and get regular jobs when it gets bad. Or go on vacation, have kids, etc.
I have heard some people talk about leaving for woodworking and stuff like that, but most people in my circle who get burnt out just stop doing government contracts and get regular jobs when it gets bad. Or go on vacation, have kids, etc.
Thanks to tech I have a lot of savings. Not enough to retire on early, though maybe starting to be fairly close, so I feel like I could do something like this in the next few years fairly safely, and I wouldn't feel as much the loss of income if I didn't have the savings.
Has anyone here done this and have a story to share, either positive or negative? What did you switch to? How did it work out?