Fairbuds XL review: noise-cancelling headphones you can fix(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Fairbuds XL review: noise-cancelling headphones you can fix
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/may/11/fairbuds-xl-review-noise-cancelling-headphones-fix-yourself-bluetooth
238 comments
I work at Fairphone but am not at all involved with the headphones. Still, I know that this is an issue that we thought about and address.
Headphones should keep working even if the manufacturer goes bust and stops providing software support. And even if your battery dies and spare parts are unavailable. That is precisely the reason why we also sell a cable with a 3.5mm jack for these cans. That way, this product is long-lasting and sustainable even in the (hopefully hypothetical) case that we are not able to support them anymore.
That is the best out of both worlds: you get wireless connectivity and ANC now. And you will be able to use them for as long as you would with wired ones.
Headphones should keep working even if the manufacturer goes bust and stops providing software support. And even if your battery dies and spare parts are unavailable. That is precisely the reason why we also sell a cable with a 3.5mm jack for these cans. That way, this product is long-lasting and sustainable even in the (hopefully hypothetical) case that we are not able to support them anymore.
That is the best out of both worlds: you get wireless connectivity and ANC now. And you will be able to use them for as long as you would with wired ones.
Fairphone 4 doesn't have a 3.5 mm jack beacuse reasons. So much for sustainability.
what's the issue here? if you buy large headphones from the same company you buy the your phone from, in a future where fairphone no longer exists (which playing the odds, is likely) at some point your also no-longer-supported phone (which functionally becomes slower every year because mobile application hardware requirements appear to double every year) might advance to support new fancy bluetooth things your headphones don't support?
I honestly (not hyperbolicly) don't see how a phone not having a 3.5mm jack is relevant to the headphones _having_ a 3.5mm jack
I honestly (not hyperbolicly) don't see how a phone not having a 3.5mm jack is relevant to the headphones _having_ a 3.5mm jack
If the headphones are meant to be used with the phone, then the idea that the headphones are future-proofed because they have a 3.5mm jack is pretty meaningless if you can't connect them to the phone with that jack.
In 2023, most people who give two shits about running wired headphones are using a USB DAC, even if their phone has a 3.5mm socket as the onboard AD/DA chipset is usually mediocre and struggles to drive most high-end cans.
It's not about high-end or whatever. It's about whether these headphones are going to be usable at all in 5 years' time.
And they will be if they're sound in terms of construction and somebody is willing to spend a few dollars on a USB DAC.
By your same logic, if you need to use dongles with a brand new MacBook, today, is the MacBook thus not useable?
By your same logic, if you need to use dongles with a brand new MacBook, today, is the MacBook thus not useable?
I see the small number of ports and reliance on dongles as a big mark against the MacBook's sustainability, yes.
If ultimately you still need to plug something in, what makes it less sustainable exactly?
(I don't use a MacBook in 2023)
(I don't use a MacBook in 2023)
It’s simplicity I terms of construction and standard.
Here, the older standard (3.5mm jack) seems stronger (not an expert but an user opinion) and easier to source than usb c.
If you can't use thing A with thing B unless you also have thing C, to my mind that obviously reduces the expected lifetime of being able to use the combination, especially when thing C is a third party part.
[deleted]
Generic usb-c to 3.5mm adapter for a few dollars, stick it on the end of the cable and leave it there. Problem solved.
The only person that I've ever seen do that had to replace his USB socket after a few months. It turns out that USB C is not designed for long term constant torque being applied, as is the case when it has a dongle attached constantly in a pocket bouncing around. Perhaps if someone sold a dongle that sits flush with the device, and is secured such that no force is transferred to the socket, that would help.
The dongle solution seems to only be good for sitting at a desk. Not for a device that is literally called "a mobile".
The dongle solution seems to only be good for sitting at a desk. Not for a device that is literally called "a mobile".
The headphones also work over a USB-C cable.
Planned obsolescence can be a good thing. Cans from the fifties and sixties still work. Nobody wants to use them; they are heavy, uncomfortable, have poor performance, need an amp to drive, and use huge old school connectors. They are from a time when music was enjoyed seated in one place.
Products that fail prematurely or wear out while the owner still wants them are poorly designed. The pinnacle of design is a product that works flawlessly until the day you are through with it, at which point every part fails simultaneously. Such a product wasted no excess material in being over-engineered, nor consumed exotic high performance materials when they were unwarranted, nor repair visits, nor extra fuel in transport.
Products that fail prematurely or wear out while the owner still wants them are poorly designed. The pinnacle of design is a product that works flawlessly until the day you are through with it, at which point every part fails simultaneously. Such a product wasted no excess material in being over-engineered, nor consumed exotic high performance materials when they were unwarranted, nor repair visits, nor extra fuel in transport.
> The pinnacle of design is a product that works flawlessly until the day you are through with it
Indeed, but for maximum utility, the second hand market is included in the "you" here. Things can continue to be useful to someone long after the first owner is through with them.
Indeed, but for maximum utility, the second hand market is included in the "you" here. Things can continue to be useful to someone long after the first owner is through with them.
Fair, I should probably say "the public" instead of "you". Many things enjoy a long second-hand life before the public's appetite for the product is gone.
> Cans from the fifties and sixties still work. Nobody wants to use them; they are heavy, uncomfortable, have poor performance, need an amp to drive, and use huge old school connectors. They are from a time when music was enjoyed seated in one place.
And there is still a market for them because some people still want to enjoy music seated and do nothing else at the same time. Of course, plenty more people want something else.
And there is still a market for them because some people still want to enjoy music seated and do nothing else at the same time. Of course, plenty more people want something else.
By "huge old school connectors" I assume you mean the 1/4 inch TRS connector? Which is still totally normal on non-cheap headphones?
More like 5 pin DIN connectors (MIDI) but different. If you take a lot at old electronics you will see things for the first time.
I've had a ton of old headphones and I've never seen something like a 5 pin DIN connector. The old IBM keyboards do use a 5 pin DIN though.
Old keyboards in general if I remember correctly, and mice.
Keyboards yes, mice no. XT and AT keyboards had a big DIN plug until the PS/2 popularized mini DIN for both keyboard and mouse.
But in the XT/AT days mice just connected to the serial port with a 9 pin D sub. Mice weren't all that common in those days anyway as most programs were still text based.
But in the XT/AT days mice just connected to the serial port with a 9 pin D sub. Mice weren't all that common in those days anyway as most programs were still text based.
Wouldn't that be too big? A typical failure point of all my wired headphones/buds has been the connector or whatever the connector plugs into. A bigger connector creates more leverage, which in turn creates more force, which has been a problem. So for mobile usage, wireless audio seems to just eliminate a whole range of problems and failure points, so it's not all good to use physical connectors?
Connectors break because the materials are cheap, not the force per se. Size doesn’t really matter.
Planned obsolescence isn't a good thing, it means that the thing will fall apart far sooner than it should. What you mean is simple engineering: the product's lifespan is not being artificially, consciously limited. They might think that you won't need it long, and plan for that, by choosing materials, construction methods etc accordingly, but this is not planned obsolescence.
> Nobody wants to use them; they are heavy, uncomfortable, have poor performance, need an amp to drive, and use huge old school connectors.
Are you thinking of Stax electrostatic headphones? That describes them, but they can sound amazing and people definitely still use them.
60s headphones used the same jacks we have now, but they don't last forever and the plastics then weren't as comfortable as the ones now.
Are you thinking of Stax electrostatic headphones? That describes them, but they can sound amazing and people definitely still use them.
60s headphones used the same jacks we have now, but they don't last forever and the plastics then weren't as comfortable as the ones now.
I think planned obsolescence can be a not-bad thing if the obsolescence phase is actually planned.
Is the product going to be trashed? Is it made of recyclable materials? Does it have materials in it that are hazardous to the environment? Can it be easily disassembled so those materials can be processed differently?
Is the product going to be trashed? Is it made of recyclable materials? Does it have materials in it that are hazardous to the environment? Can it be easily disassembled so those materials can be processed differently?
>The pinnacle of design is a product that works flawlessly until the day you are through with it
What about the 2nd, 3rd, etc user of the item? You're ignoring the second hand market.
I use Cameras that were made in the 30's, they still work despite the original user being "through with it" some time ago.
What about the 2nd, 3rd, etc user of the item? You're ignoring the second hand market.
I use Cameras that were made in the 30's, they still work despite the original user being "through with it" some time ago.
Not everyone wants to go jogging or working out with wired headphones. They always rub on your skin or on your clothes (especially in winter with may thick layers) with the rubbing sound transferring in your ears as you move around, or worse, snag on something and keep tugging down on my head giving me a bad neck posture (when the cable is routed under my shirt/jaket).
The freedom of TWS earbuds can spoil you for life.
Why don't we make TWS manufacturers to build their shit with replaceable cells? Most have normal Varta lithium cells inside. Surely they can make them replaceable the same way they are on the AirTags? They would be a bit bulkier and have less water resistance but I don't go swimming with them and as long as there's no cables I'm happy to tolerate a bulkier size.
The freedom of TWS earbuds can spoil you for life.
Why don't we make TWS manufacturers to build their shit with replaceable cells? Most have normal Varta lithium cells inside. Surely they can make them replaceable the same way they are on the AirTags? They would be a bit bulkier and have less water resistance but I don't go swimming with them and as long as there's no cables I'm happy to tolerate a bulkier size.
I second this. After trying with many different kinds, it's just too big a hassle. Clips at strategic places can help, yet only work so long. Eventually something will snag and the headphones will break. Separate, wireless buds are significantly more comfortable.
I use Airpods most of the time but wired headphones on my desktop because bluetooth is so broken on desktops. Going back to the wired headphones feels like wearing a leash tied to my desk. Want to just go grab a drink from the fridge but I have to mute myself, take them off, then undo it all when I come back.
I'm not sure TWS buds with the shape of an AirTag would work, but I do think they could make them with something like an easily removable cap on the stem that holds the cell in place.
>TWS buds with the shape of an AirTag
You missed the point. The target wasn't to shape the earbuds like the AirTags but to allow the user to unscrew the lithium cell like it's possible on the AirTags.
You missed the point. The target wasn't to shape the earbuds like the AirTags but to allow the user to unscrew the lithium cell like it's possible on the AirTags.
Microsoft was planning earbuds with a big round shape. I don't think they actually ever materialized though.
I have these Shure SE215 in-ear monitors that detach from the cable using the MMCX standard. If a wire breaks, it's cheap to swap out, I can swap from a 3.5mm to a usbc to Bluetooth. There are probably other earbuds that use the standard too (I think there are a few standards?)
But ultimately this means, as long as I don't lose them I can repair/replace the wire as needed.
But ultimately this means, as long as I don't lose them I can repair/replace the wire as needed.
I have a similar model and the wire swapping capability has saved them from the trash a couple times. The first time, they got sucked into a vacuum cleaner after only having them for two years or so. The second time, a dog chewed them severely. The in-ear monitor parts still have dog bite marks, but they work just fine. I guess I’ve had them about 15 years now, and they still sound excellent.
> New bluetooth standard? New advances in noise-cancellation? You won't get them.
> Wireless headphones last a couple of years, where wired headphones last decades.
Those wired headphones that last decades also won't get any advances made during their lifetime...
> Wireless headphones last a couple of years, where wired headphones last decades.
Those wired headphones that last decades also won't get any advances made during their lifetime...
I've had a pair of Sennheiser HD280s for at least a decade. Honestly, they don't need advances. They still work perfectly. The foam wore off the band, but I replaced it. For my application, batteries and bluetooth would cause a lot more problems than they solve. For my use case, they're basically perfect.
Many IEM earpieces can be disconnected from the cable, so you can switch out between a wired connection and a bluetooth adapter (or replace/repair those as needed, while keeping the drivers). I don't use bluetooth headphones, but it seems like an okay compromise.
I will say that going direct isn't without problems, though. I can't tell you how many adapters and dongles I've lost. At this point it feels like a wash with how much ends up in a landfill. I'd love for everything to support 3.5mm but that's not the world we live in.
I will say that going direct isn't without problems, though. I can't tell you how many adapters and dongles I've lost. At this point it feels like a wash with how much ends up in a landfill. I'd love for everything to support 3.5mm but that's not the world we live in.
But "repairable" and "upgradable" are not synonyms. I don't mind that my phone isn't upgradable, but I'd like to be able to easily change the battery when it dies of old age.
Okay but tell that to the mad lads that put an 11th gen processor (and complete custom motherboard) in the ThinkPad T60 from 2006: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/tdfea2/t700_crowd...
Eh. I've had to do more fiddling with my wired headphones (Sennheiser 380's) and replace the jack and wire more than once. I have had them for over a decade. My wireless set is a pair of quietcomfort 35's I got in 2026.. They've aged remarkably well, but I did have to replace the ear foam for both sets these years.
So, I have been served wel by both.
So, I have been served wel by both.
Same. Ear pads and cable are consumables. Especially the latter rarely lasted more than a year back when I was actually using headphones 12h a day on average.
Thankfully, replacing cables on big headphones is a fitting challenge for newbies as soldering.
Thankfully, replacing cables on big headphones is a fitting challenge for newbies as soldering.
> My wireless set is a pair of quietcomfort 35's I got in 2026
We’ve found the time traveler!
We’ve found the time traveler!
All true. I buy some of the cheapest Bluetooth headphones available. After all, what's the selling point of Bluetooth. Audio quality. Protocol quality. No, it's convenience. That's it.
Encouraging to see some auto manufacturers calling out touchscreens. The marketing for so-called "tech" is some of the worst I have ever seen. The "technology" is half-baked.
There's technology and then there's just data collection and surveillance, aka "tech". The later needs non-stop hype. No wonder it's goal is planned obsolescence. The stuff is not high quality. Never was and never will be.
Encouraging to see some auto manufacturers calling out touchscreens. The marketing for so-called "tech" is some of the worst I have ever seen. The "technology" is half-baked.
There's technology and then there's just data collection and surveillance, aka "tech". The later needs non-stop hype. No wonder it's goal is planned obsolescence. The stuff is not high quality. Never was and never will be.
My phone doesn’t have a port for your 20 year old headphones
Mine does because I considered that when I bought it.
Im so sad my Sennheiser headphones from ~2001 are slowly deteriorating, and the parts are no longer available! There is an updated version that they still sell the parts for, but the specific ones I need are different. Still I believe Sennheiser is really good compared to an industry average in providing spare parts.
> Wireless headphones last a couple of years
That makes no sense; why would they only last a couple years? I've had a pair of Bose QC35 for 5 years now, and they're still working great and are compatible with any devices I used them with, from 10 year old laptops to recent Android and Apple phones.
That makes no sense; why would they only last a couple years? I've had a pair of Bose QC35 for 5 years now, and they're still working great and are compatible with any devices I used them with, from 10 year old laptops to recent Android and Apple phones.
Ancient outdated bluetooth standards will still play the sound.
While burning through the battery in under 72 minutes, and require you to stay within 3 meters of the phone, and will lose connection if the phone goes into your back pocket. I've got three pairs of wireless headphones that all suffer these three traits.
My daughter's modern Sennheiser headphones though, work across the house, through two walls. And the battery literally lasts over eight hours, for all I know it might have lasted another eight. Seriously impressive.
My daughter's modern Sennheiser headphones though, work across the house, through two walls. And the battery literally lasts over eight hours, for all I know it might have lasted another eight. Seriously impressive.
i've never had a pair of wired headphones last more than ~2 years
i usually buy cheap wired ear buds that i can listen to while i walk to work
i usually buy cheap wired ear buds that i can listen to while i walk to work
If you only ever buy cheap disposable earbuds, they’ll never last very long.
Nice headphones can last a decade or more, and be made of entirely user-serviceable parts.
Nice headphones can last a decade or more, and be made of entirely user-serviceable parts.
A lot of wired headphones are built well, sound phenomenal, and have easily serviceable parts. Eg Sennheiser HD650/HD6XX, HD660, HD58X.
The 650s are nearly 20 years old and can blow all your modern bluetooth headphones out of the water for sound quality.
So what I do is just buy a bluetooth receiver (eg fiiO BRT3k, BRT5, etc) and clip them onto the side of my headphones. Voila! Bluetooth headphones that sound great and don't need to be thrown away in 5 years.
The 650s are nearly 20 years old and can blow all your modern bluetooth headphones out of the water for sound quality.
So what I do is just buy a bluetooth receiver (eg fiiO BRT3k, BRT5, etc) and clip them onto the side of my headphones. Voila! Bluetooth headphones that sound great and don't need to be thrown away in 5 years.
None of those have noise cancelling. Which mean they only sound good in situations where you don't need it.
I certainly appreciate this idea. My WH-1000XM4s developed an issue where the NC has a feedback loop that sends a deafening shriek as soon as you place them on your ears and it lasts until you turn off the NC. I have to go through this (quite embarrassing in public) ordeal every time I turn them on. I'd just upgrade if they weren't so absurdly expensive in the first place.
>WH-1000XM4s developed an issue where the NC has a feedback loop that sends a deafening shriek
Interesting. I have the original first gen WH-1000XM1s from 2006 and keep wanting to upgrade them to get the more advance NC and USB-C but they haven't broken down yet and they have no issues whatsoever, even the battery lasts long enough, while the modern ones seem plagued with various issues so I'm hesitant to upgrade.
Interesting. I have the original first gen WH-1000XM1s from 2006 and keep wanting to upgrade them to get the more advance NC and USB-C but they haven't broken down yet and they have no issues whatsoever, even the battery lasts long enough, while the modern ones seem plagued with various issues so I'm hesitant to upgrade.
I had XM2s that still work technically but have been quite abused so the hardware is falling apart. The bump in NC quality between XM2 and XM4 was pretty astounding
You're gonna be waiting for a while my mdr zx770 is still functioning perfectly
This has been happening to me lately. It's absolutely insane behavior that had the potential to permanently damage my hearing.
Those are basically just as repairable as the Fairbuds, and cleaning the insides has helped some people get rid of the feedback problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnFetuJajfI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnFetuJajfI
Do you think this is a hardware or a software problem? I have these headphones myself, and I really like them. This sounds awful. I had to do a factory reset on them recently because they stopped connecting to one of my devices.
Definitely hardware, initially the problem was occasional but now happens every time. There are microphones inside the earcup (near the driver) that I believe are the issue
I had the same issue with NC feedback loop and was able to get the headphones replaced under warranty with little hassle. Worth a shot if yours are still covered.
I have the same issue with my earpods pro, it occurred after a couple of falls while wearing them, seems to be damage to a microphone or something.
My 3s do this as well but it's quite intermittent
There's a brand in Brazil, called Kuba[1], selling a self-repairable, upgradable headphones called Disco for a while now. Originally wired, they're releasing a Bluetooth version and old models are upgradable to the new wireless protocol (owners just need to buy the new Bluetooth arc).
[1] https://kuba.audio/
[1] https://kuba.audio/
Also with mechanical bass equalizer ! Thanks for sharing.
I like the idea, but they look a little big to be called "buds".
Fairphones would have been too confusing :p
Faircans, perhaps. I also expected them to be in-ear when I clicked.
As did I, particularly because Fairphone do actually offer in-ear earbuds: https://shop.fairphone.com/en/true-wireless-stereo-earbuds
Also, maybe the company should rename from FairPhone to Fair or FairTech.
Fearphones
Fairpods Max?
They already had the Fairbuds, so they just borrowed from Apple with the AirPods Max
Awesome! My current noise-cancelling headphones have lost their noise-cancelling ability and bluetooth connectivity due to the battery dying. Can only listen to music over a cable now.
Would have loved to be able to replace the battery in my headphones and imho this should be the standard for all headphones/electronic devices
Would have loved to be able to replace the battery in my headphones and imho this should be the standard for all headphones/electronic devices
No frequency response testing? Mic response testing? Head pressure measurement?
Kinda hard to take this seriously as a review when they don't even show anything about performance of the product.
Kinda hard to take this seriously as a review when they don't even show anything about performance of the product.
It's a review in a general interest newspaper for the average headphone buyer. Almost no one who buys headphones knows what any of those things are.
You are on a site called Hacker News
A lot of people on HN care about repairability. That's probably why a Fairphone product review is more likely to be posted here. If you know of a more technical review of this, please post it.
That was obviously my point
The AV niche is deep and has plenty of its own communities. HN has a technical audience spanning many niches, yet not all of us are familiar or interested in the finer points of AV hardware.
Yet expecting the HN audience to be curious and to criticize a review for laking scientific precision when it was posted here is very much in line.
We should strive to be more curious and to demand more science.
We should strive to be more curious and to demand more science.
A Guardian review that dove deep into the science behind the headphones would be a worse review, in that it would be less useful to its target audience (who mostly don't know or care about that).
Maybe your objection isn't with such a review appearing in the Guardian but rather with it appearing on HackerNews. That's fair, however, to me, what is interesting about this post is that the Guardian (again, a widely-read, general interest newspaper) is reviewing the Fairbuds (a new product pushed by a fairly niche company focused on repairability and sustainability). And the review is largely positive. That is, the post is interesting as a reflection of social acceptance of this product and not as an exploration of the science behind the product.
Maybe your objection isn't with such a review appearing in the Guardian but rather with it appearing on HackerNews. That's fair, however, to me, what is interesting about this post is that the Guardian (again, a widely-read, general interest newspaper) is reviewing the Fairbuds (a new product pushed by a fairly niche company focused on repairability and sustainability). And the review is largely positive. That is, the post is interesting as a reflection of social acceptance of this product and not as an exploration of the science behind the product.
I get that but they didn't even compare to other common headphones, I'm not sure how this helps anyone buy them.
“No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.” 2023 edition. The people who care about those concerns are in a VERY specific bubble, similar to people who argue about differences between the BSDs.
I have an 9 year old pair of Bose QC35s and my primary interest is if the noise cancelling dulls the noise on a plane; the exact amount is frankly unimportant. I also care to see if I can replace external parts if they get damaged (flipped my bicycle when a homeless person stepped in front of me; this did a number on my QC35s that I had in my bag. Thankfully all the damage was surface-level and I'm not vain.).
I'll only buy fixable electronics going forward.
I have an 9 year old pair of Bose QC35s and my primary interest is if the noise cancelling dulls the noise on a plane; the exact amount is frankly unimportant. I also care to see if I can replace external parts if they get damaged (flipped my bicycle when a homeless person stepped in front of me; this did a number on my QC35s that I had in my bag. Thankfully all the damage was surface-level and I'm not vain.).
I'll only buy fixable electronics going forward.
Exactly. I'm gonna have to wait for the rtings.com review, the only source I use for headphones when the model I'm reviewing is on their site.
I'm not aware of any other site (suggestions welcome) that do in-depth product reviews
I'm not aware of any other site (suggestions welcome) that do in-depth product reviews
Even if they didn't supply numbers, it would have been nice if they'd compared them against different competitors, instead of just saying they're not as good as the best in the business from Sony/Bose.
Those headphones cost a bit more, and not everyone springs for the "best in the business" models anyway. Are these comparable with an older model? How do they fare against the AirPods Max or top-of-the-line Beats? More data points would have made this article much more useful.
Those headphones cost a bit more, and not everyone springs for the "best in the business" models anyway. Are these comparable with an older model? How do they fare against the AirPods Max or top-of-the-line Beats? More data points would have made this article much more useful.
I have to ask, as I have never bought active headphones, all my headphones are user servicable already. I've even had to repair the soldering joints on my M40x once. The cables are all removable. The pads are easily replacable.
Are active headphones really that much harder to service? There's no space constraints to warrant glue, clips and ultrasonic welding instead of screws.
Are active headphones really that much harder to service? There's no space constraints to warrant glue, clips and ultrasonic welding instead of screws.
I have replaced the pads on my Bose QuietComfort 35s 3 times in the last 6 years of wearing them almost daily. It's pretty easy to do. Beyond that they've just worked, even though I've dropped them a bunch of times. Still have excellent battery life. One of the best products I've purchased in last decade.
Pads should be easily replaceable on all headphones. They are the part that wears out the fastest.
> One of the best products I've purchased in last decade.
Agreed. I have gone through two dozen IEM and over ear headphones in two decades, and the BOSE QC35 II are the best I have ever used. Worth every penny.
Wanna know what's funny? Everybody loves to hate on BOSE, but they are consistently better than any other brand I've ever bought. Their sound quality might not be great, but they make up for it with comfort, practicality and sturdier than any other brand in that price range.
I use some Beyerdynamics DT880 on my desktop, they are somehow worse than the QC35. Tinny highs than need EQ, too shallow so my very delicate ears rest on the internal hard mesh and they hurt after a few hours. They do not spark joy.
Agreed. I have gone through two dozen IEM and over ear headphones in two decades, and the BOSE QC35 II are the best I have ever used. Worth every penny.
Wanna know what's funny? Everybody loves to hate on BOSE, but they are consistently better than any other brand I've ever bought. Their sound quality might not be great, but they make up for it with comfort, practicality and sturdier than any other brand in that price range.
I use some Beyerdynamics DT880 on my desktop, they are somehow worse than the QC35. Tinny highs than need EQ, too shallow so my very delicate ears rest on the internal hard mesh and they hurt after a few hours. They do not spark joy.
also hve quiet comforts. battery is still great, did replace the pads again recently. Only downsite is I broke the hinge so the ear was not connected to the loop and the parts didn't seem available. I used some small rivets and a piece of copper... back in action.
I have Sony WH-1000XM3 headphones where the headphone strap broke after a year and a half of light use. I was only able to order a non-ome replacement part from a third part on a different continent. Would have loved to be able to order Sony parts
I love this concept! When I got tired of replacing headphones in the past I got some beyerdynamic dt770 modded by jfunk.org. They are repairable and durable. Though they are not natively bluetooth, can use a short cable + qudelix 5k to make them wireless. No noise cancelling.
Would be very nice to have durable / repairable noise cancelling headphones. These headphones from fairbuds look great overall, but I'm skeptical of the durability of the hinges.
Would be very nice to have durable / repairable noise cancelling headphones. These headphones from fairbuds look great overall, but I'm skeptical of the durability of the hinges.
One of the problems with headphones is that the cups tend to deteriorate over time - maybe sweat or the oil from the skin or something reacts with it and it starts to peel. After a few years, the cups are no longer available for that model and so you end up having to buy a new one.
Have you looked at 3rd party replacement pads? I've never seen a pair of headphones with removable pads that I couldn't get an aftermarket replacement for-- usually better quality than the factory ones. Big round ones, smaller ovular ones, memory foam, leather velour or whatever finishes... always managed to get something that fit. Just measured and looked for something close. They mostly seem to attach the same way.
Most recently, for a discontinued Audio Technica set that did not match any of the standard AT pads, I got replacements from Wicked Cushions.
Most recently, for a discontinued Audio Technica set that did not match any of the standard AT pads, I got replacements from Wicked Cushions.
The irony is that you’ll have better luck finding quality 3rd party replacements for popular, widely sold “non-repairable” models (Sony, Bose, etc) than boutique “repairable” cans.
+1 to the Wicked Cushions suggestion. The pads on my Bose 700s split, and the Wicked Cushion replacements were thicker and had better isolation than the OEM pads. They seem to have held up really well over the last 12 months as well.
I haven't had that issue, but if you know that you do, in this case you can buy the cups separately. After trying it out for a few weeks or months to make sure it's a keeper, just order another pair of cups?
I got the impression that they've had phone parts in stock for a very long time, but of course that's relative to the average phone age and I don't know how many years you'd be expecting. In this case, though, if you already know what you'll need ahead of time... that's a cheap thing to just keep in a drawer. Can't go out of stock if you already have them and thereby double the other parts' longevity.
I got the impression that they've had phone parts in stock for a very long time, but of course that's relative to the average phone age and I don't know how many years you'd be expecting. In this case, though, if you already know what you'll need ahead of time... that's a cheap thing to just keep in a drawer. Can't go out of stock if you already have them and thereby double the other parts' longevity.
Curious: do they degrade over time in drawer?
The person speculated that it might be from skin oils, which would make sense to me more than natural degradation across the timespan of a few years of doing literally nothing to them. But yeah, I don't actually know.
That's absolutely been my issue with a number of headphones, so I'm definitely interested in these.
I originally thought this was about in-ear buds (because of the somewhat misleading name), for which they'd have been just a few months too late for me (I bought some Sony MX4s earlier this year), but full over-ear headphones? I might be interested in that.
I originally thought this was about in-ear buds (because of the somewhat misleading name), for which they'd have been just a few months too late for me (I bought some Sony MX4s earlier this year), but full over-ear headphones? I might be interested in that.
I think there replacement pads for a bunch of them (especially more expensive models)
Dekoni Audio do great and relatively inexpensive replacements for ear cushion pads. I’ve bought pads for my Sony ANC phones and they are at least as good as the factory ones.
FWIW Bose is still selling replacement cups for QC2, which were first sold 20 years ago, and have been discontinued for 14 years.
These look really interesting.
I'm curious if there are plans to sell these to American customers. Right now (IIUC) their website only ships to EU countries.
I'm curious if there are plans to sell these to American customers. Right now (IIUC) their website only ships to EU countries.
I really hope they manage US availability some time soon. The FairPhone seems like it'd be a really good Android app dev test device, representing the average Android device well, being repairable (when the battery inevitably dies due to being plugged in frequently), and I would imagine being more friendly to third-party Android distros once official OS updates stop being provided.
I'm in the same boat. I got all the way to the checkout page before realizing that they won't ship to the US. Seriously considering buying these and asking a friend in the EU to ship them to me in hopes of them making spare parts available in the US before I break anything. Probably won't do it, but I've been waiting for years for a pair of bluetooth headphones that I don't have to constantly worry about breaking.
Does anyone know a test where they actually measured how well the noise cancelling does, compared to Sony and Bose flagships?
You've been able to fix Beyerdynamic DT770s forever, which is one reason why they're so popular with studios.
Pretty different use though, and these are more complex having NC electronics and a rechargeable battery for wireless use.
Unfortunately Beyerdynamics don't sound flat (they have a big treble peak which leads to a "sibilence" effect) so you'd want to EQ that out for them to be suitable studio monitors.
This, and not being BT, which is a no-no in studios for various reasons.
Anyone know if these are prone to creaking? I've had to give up on otherwise great headphones because they developed a loud plastic-friction creak which I had no luck repairing. My Sennheiser HD4.50 so far seems immune to that, though has some drawbacks.
What did you try to resolve the issue? I immediately thought lubrication might help.
But if the culprit is plastic weakening over time, R.I.P.
But if the culprit is plastic weakening over time, R.I.P.
I don't remember exactly now, but I seem to remember trying different lubricants and no lubricant, but nothing worked. It was in the plastic-plastic hinges inside the cups.
I used to swear by V-Moda for portable headphones. They were highly repairable (you could replace the pads, band, cables, and even the driver if you really wanted). That was, until their Bluetooth enabled line. It had no parts available, and even at that was non trivial to fix with 3rd party parts.
These days, I love my beyerdynamic headphones. I've replaced the drivers, cables, pads, etc over their 10 year life. Only recently have I retired my first pair because of an upgrade. That being said, there's no Bluetooth / wireless, but I'm largely okay with that. If I really needed it, I'd be fine with an external module that hooks up to the cable.
These days, I love my beyerdynamic headphones. I've replaced the drivers, cables, pads, etc over their 10 year life. Only recently have I retired my first pair because of an upgrade. That being said, there's no Bluetooth / wireless, but I'm largely okay with that. If I really needed it, I'd be fine with an external module that hooks up to the cable.
Same path for me, I like the v-moda headphones a lot, but the hinge mechanism is way too fragile, and the charge port broke, so the bluetooth pair was my last v-moda headphone. I also switched to beyerdynamic and have been very happy with them. Only downside of this durability is that they are not foldable - would be great to have headphones with a high durability folding mechanism
I’ve got a set of 6 year old $60 taotronics headphones that I just replaced the earpads on. Took 5 minutes and they use generic earpads available from AE or Amazon. The battery is soldered in, but is a generic lipo foil pouch accesible behind a screwed together earcup so I won’t need to find a specific form factor or break any glued together stuff to get at it.
I don’t see this product as more “repairable” than other products. I do see that it has a lot of modules that are designed to be thrown away and replaced easily without throwing away unaffected parts.
Repairable? Not in the strictest sense. I don’t see schematics and board layouts for repair people. Are all components 0805 or bigger so a blown capacitor can be easily replaced? No way to know, because they haven’t published how you would go about actually diagnosing and repairing failed components instead of tossing and replacing the module they are housed in.
Honestly, for the price you might as well just pick up a nice set from a company like Bose that has a service and repair department, and a demonstrated commitment to longevity and quality.
I don’t see this product as more “repairable” than other products. I do see that it has a lot of modules that are designed to be thrown away and replaced easily without throwing away unaffected parts.
Repairable? Not in the strictest sense. I don’t see schematics and board layouts for repair people. Are all components 0805 or bigger so a blown capacitor can be easily replaced? No way to know, because they haven’t published how you would go about actually diagnosing and repairing failed components instead of tossing and replacing the module they are housed in.
Honestly, for the price you might as well just pick up a nice set from a company like Bose that has a service and repair department, and a demonstrated commitment to longevity and quality.
Do you think Bose actually repair anything? I always assumed they just replace it and recycle/destroy the old one.
I would assume they act similarly to Apple: quickly send you a refurbished replacement, and then go refurbish the one you sent in. For the small percentage of devices they receive that aren't able to be refurbished, they recycle/destroy.
I think it depends a lot on the product. Their aviation headsets and other non-consumer audio equipment gets repaired for sure
The classic first reply to the Show HN: Dropbox thread lives on in this comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863
I see the point of the "fair" and "repairable" advertising for smartphones that usually have far more proprietary and limited-production parts, but headphones aren't exactly in the same situation. Almost all parts of them are already widely available, so much that you can easily make your own: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32375128
I like the little wired earbuds from Walmart that cost $5-10. If they wear out then you just replace them.
The part that usually breaks for me on headphones is the connection from the cable to the actual speakers. So testing the wires one way or another fixes it temporarily which leads me to always contemplate trying to repair them but I don't know exactly where the connection problem is.
The part that usually breaks for me on headphones is the connection from the cable to the actual speakers. So testing the wires one way or another fixes it temporarily which leads me to always contemplate trying to repair them but I don't know exactly where the connection problem is.
The break is usually at the plug end or where the wires enter the housings. I've repaired many cheap earbuds by just cutting off and reterminating them.
I like the concept of repairability, but these headphones are honestly quite boring. “Fair” cannot be the only selling point. Offer something interesting and compelling.
It's good as a starting point though. It inspires similar ideas to hit the market and gives consumers a taste of sustainability.
Absolutely! I guess I am not the target market. I’ve had the same Bose headphones for four years and other than an easy earpad replacement, nothing has broken. I can’t imagine needing to replace the battery.
This seems somewhat like a solution looking for a problem.
Probably the price surcharge for these headphones would be better spent on right-to-repair lobbying or even spent at ifixit.
This seems somewhat like a solution looking for a problem.
Probably the price surcharge for these headphones would be better spent on right-to-repair lobbying or even spent at ifixit.
There's nothing more sustainable than keeping the product you already own!
I have been fixing my Bose QC 45 for many years too
Qc45 were released on April 4th 2022
Maybe OP meant 35. I have those since they came out (2016) and they are still going strong with daily use. I've replaced the earpads once for about $15 in parts. Battery life is reduced of course but not by much and I plan to replace those too.
Whenever they break this looks like a good replacement.
Whenever they break this looks like a good replacement.
Same here. Also got a wire that i use most of the time when i am in the office so i don’t even notice the battery life degradation
Have QC45s. Bought in Jan, microphone died in Mar, took all of 2 weeks to replace (door to door) and I’m still using but wary of them now.
Would have bought FairbudsXL instead as it’s not clear that the QC45s have any benefit over them
Would have bought FairbudsXL instead as it’s not clear that the QC45s have any benefit over them
Sorry, meant 35. I had to lookup which model looked like mine and got confused
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QC45 have been out for only 1.5 years
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> €249
It would be interesting to know if t would be viable to make these for the lower end market…. Or would consumers just replace them anyway?
It would be interesting to know if t would be viable to make these for the lower end market…. Or would consumers just replace them anyway?
Owner of a 50€ Bluetooth headphones pair, bought 10 years ago. Had to resolder a connector, and the head strap got cracked while in my backpack but works good as new again after wrapping a single piece of tape around the broken spot ~five years ago.
Kinda waiting for something unrepairable to die so I can finally get headphones that can pair with more than one device at a time. New fabric would also be nice, I'd love if that were sold separately. Now that I've got a USB-C smartphone (had to say goodbye to micro two years ago and, with that, being able to use literally every charger in the house), having C on headphones would be nice as well.
Feels like a waste to just throw a working product away, so I haven't so far. It's not at all in a sellable state.
Kinda waiting for something unrepairable to die so I can finally get headphones that can pair with more than one device at a time. New fabric would also be nice, I'd love if that were sold separately. Now that I've got a USB-C smartphone (had to say goodbye to micro two years ago and, with that, being able to use literally every charger in the house), having C on headphones would be nice as well.
Feels like a waste to just throw a working product away, so I haven't so far. It's not at all in a sellable state.
I also have replaced the earpieces on my inexpensive headphones multiple times.
They look cool and I would love to be able to buy one but the sustainability tax seems too high to be a successful product to me.
It's not a "sustainability tax", it's "acknowledging people are not slaves nor are resources infinite"
"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent”
It may not make sense to repair for many consumers. In a few years we might have better codecs or similar and you'll want to upgrade your crusty headphones anyway.
It may not make sense to repair for many consumers. In a few years we might have better codecs or similar and you'll want to upgrade your crusty headphones anyway.
>>In a few years we might have better codecs
This sounds like something could be done with a firmware update.
This sounds like something could be done with a firmware update.
Nope, for latency and battery reasons this would be done by a specific chip, e.g. https://www.icstation.com/audio-module-bluetooth-compatible-... / https://www.tinyosshop.com/ts8670
The same's true on the smartphone transmitter side.
The same's true on the smartphone transmitter side.
That 2nd link you shared, has 3 links under "Documentation" to firmware downloads.
Or the speakers themselves, eventually
> "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent”
I notice every time the cost of a properly sustainable product comes up, the conversation always turns to what a short-sighted bastard everyone else is, and I can only assume the people who make that argument are already making moral choices themselves, which is honestly just heartwarming to see.
I notice every time the cost of a properly sustainable product comes up, the conversation always turns to what a short-sighted bastard everyone else is, and I can only assume the people who make that argument are already making moral choices themselves, which is honestly just heartwarming to see.
I agree, and this is why I believe that issues like this can only be fixed with regulation. Markets not only can't solve them, they actually reward exploitation. It's way more efficient from a product standpoint, and the only thing that's needed to quell the public response is just to remove the abuse far enough from them, so that no real feedback loop can form.
WH-1000XM5 => $400
Bose QC45 => $279
Fairbuds XL => 249€ ($272 if I convert right now)
It's cheaper than two of the most popular headphones, how is there a "too high sustainability tax" ?!?
Bose QC45 => $279
Fairbuds XL => 249€ ($272 if I convert right now)
It's cheaper than two of the most popular headphones, how is there a "too high sustainability tax" ?!?
But what's the sound quality like? If they're in the price range of $300-400 premium headphones, but perform like $100 headphones, that's still a "tax".
The price on noise canceling headphones is usually an indication of how good they do NC.
The vast amount of Bluetooth NC headphones sound like their 100$ wired counterpart.
The vast amount of Bluetooth NC headphones sound like their 100$ wired counterpart.
I can really recommend the WH-1000XM5 btw. They are quite light and work surprisingly well even with iDevices. I tried to call my dad while I mowed the lawn (electric mower, but pretty loud one) and he understood me well. Audio pass through sounds like the real thing, I’d just like to be able to turn it louder.
That's a change then because the WH-1000XM3 microphone is really crap.
rtings.com describe the recording quality as pretty bad still on the XM5[0], but with markedly better mic noise suppression than the XM3[1].
(These are the most objective measurements I'm aware of.)
[0]: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sony/wh-1000xm5-wi...
[1]: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sony/wh-1000xm3-wi...
(These are the most objective measurements I'm aware of.)
[0]: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sony/wh-1000xm5-wi...
[1]: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/sony/wh-1000xm3-wi...
The XM5 have 8 microphones, that’s one of the major improvements over previous versions.
NC headphones typically have multiple microphones, the more there are, the better the NC can be. This is because the first part of NC is detecting ambient noise, the second being generating soundwaves to cancel out what's picked up by the mics.
With more mics it's possible to get more accurate NC, especially for directional sounds.
However more mics won't necessarily mean better call quality, they may not even be used at all for voice.
For example my Jabra NC pair has really good microphone quality for calls, this is done by having a dedicated boom microphone, in this case nothing to do with the multiple NC microphones.
With more mics it's possible to get more accurate NC, especially for directional sounds.
However more mics won't necessarily mean better call quality, they may not even be used at all for voice.
For example my Jabra NC pair has really good microphone quality for calls, this is done by having a dedicated boom microphone, in this case nothing to do with the multiple NC microphones.
What are the best noise cancelling headphones to work in cafes?
Im using Bose Quiet Comfort II and I always wish they would cancel better.
Im using Bose Quiet Comfort II and I always wish they would cancel better.
SONY WH-1000XM5 are the best of the bunch, as of now. They offer superlative quality noise cancellation, which I can’t do without.
I have been waiting for Apple to update its AirPods Max before buying them, as I’ve heard much to be admired about them, but no luck yet.
SONY is the one to beat. Expensive, but unrivaled NC and sound fidelity.
I have been waiting for Apple to update its AirPods Max before buying them, as I’ve heard much to be admired about them, but no luck yet.
SONY is the one to beat. Expensive, but unrivaled NC and sound fidelity.
The Sony XM5's are touted by most reviewers as the best for noise cancelling and calls in noisy environments, although Bose, Apple, Sennheiser etc. are right up there. Each model has it's pros and cons.
I haven't tried XM4's or XM5's but I do have both XM3's and AirPods Max. The XM3's have excellent cancellation and are more comfortable, but have more of a bass-cannon sort of sound profile compared to the AirPods Max, which have cancellation almost as good but have a generally more balanced sound.
I have sony XM3 earbuds and the app has EQ. I assume the XM3 headset app does as well since its the same app.
I'll have to play with that some. I knew of it but assumed the EQ was done on the phone rather than on the headphones, which if true kind of renders it moot because I use my headphones on several devices that the app doesn't run on.
I have the Jabra evolve2 85 and, while being ridiculously expensive, are the best I've used.
Even better for calls than the Sony's, for me anyway.
At this price point and quality though it's more about personal preference, choosing what's most important: comfort, voice call quality, music quality, etc
Even better for calls than the Sony's, for me anyway.
At this price point and quality though it's more about personal preference, choosing what's most important: comfort, voice call quality, music quality, etc
Noise cancelling only really works for constant sounds (like airplane engines), not for background music/chatter.
Why is that btw? When I first heard of noise cancelling a few years ago, I figured electrons travel faster than sound waves (by a few orders of magnitude), so they'd just have a mic on the outside and speakers on the inside, amplifier in between and connect plus and minus the wrong way around to create an inverse signal. No chips with delay needed, just an analog signal going directly from mic to speaker. Shouldn't that cancel literally all sound?
Apparently they, instead, all use some software solution that mainly works for constant noises. I don't understand why
Apparently they, instead, all use some software solution that mainly works for constant noises. I don't understand why
the sound travels through the air, hits the microphone, gets transmitted to a cpu that creates an inverse signal, and is then transmitted to your ears. No matter what the cancellation signal is always later than received sound. The received sound arrives first. noises that don't change much have the most similarity between the sound from a couple milliseconds ago to the sound now, and so are most effective.
But I will say my sony wf-1000xm3 do seem to do a pretty decent job muffling most noises.
But I will say my sony wf-1000xm3 do seem to do a pretty decent job muffling most noises.
The way I experience it, noise cancelling works best on low frequencies of whatever you are listening. It complements passive noise isolation, which work best for high frequencies. Voice is usually in the middle, and it tends to be less attenuated, often that's a feature: you don't want do hear background noise, but you want to hear when people talk to you.
Noise cancelling headphones are never just about cancellation, they are always a combination of both cancellation and isolation working together, and it involves a lot of tradeoffs.
Noise cancelling headphones are never just about cancellation, they are always a combination of both cancellation and isolation working together, and it involves a lot of tradeoffs.
You're right that it works best for that, but headsets with good noise cancelling tend to have good isolation and the noise cancelling does do some work to suppress other sounds.
The Sony ones worked quite well for that when I tried them. Was genuinely impressed
I hope they do a true wireless earbuds set. Those tend to need repairing much more frequently.
They already have those: https://shop.fairphone.com/de/accessories/true-wireless-ster...
While I don't see spare parts for those, they claim to be "100% electronic waste neutral". Probably much harder/impossible to repair due to the form factor though, not sure.
While I don't see spare parts for those, they claim to be "100% electronic waste neutral". Probably much harder/impossible to repair due to the form factor though, not sure.
They have a 1/10 from iFixit on the repairability score.
Not their only goal btw. Besides repairability, they also source from sustainable mines/suppliers (so far as reasonably possible, given that virtually nobody else creates demand for such a thing) with normal wages and such. And recycling is a thing but I'm less read up on what they do there.
I still agree that they made a product nobody asked for just so they could get rid of the 3.5mm jack in their latest smartphone, until today that is (first time I see someone ask for fair earbuds!), but I do want to give them credit for their overall mission beyond just repairability.
I still agree that they made a product nobody asked for just so they could get rid of the 3.5mm jack in their latest smartphone, until today that is (first time I see someone ask for fair earbuds!), but I do want to give them credit for their overall mission beyond just repairability.
From what I've heard from the small android phone project... No OEM even has new base designs that include a 3.5mm jack.
Are there wireless eaebuds with a better score? I imagine the form factor is quite limiting.
[deleted]
They already have a TWS set. Not repairable sadly
https://shop.fairphone.com/en/true-wireless-stereo-earbuds
https://shop.fairphone.com/en/true-wireless-stereo-earbuds
I really wish these were available in Canada.
Not buds; disappointed.
>Weight: 330g
That is like Apple AirPods, those are very heavy and extended wear gets you tired.
And most over-ear headphones are already pretty fixable. Most brands provide spare parts for like 20 years.
That is like Apple AirPods, those are very heavy and extended wear gets you tired.
And most over-ear headphones are already pretty fixable. Most brands provide spare parts for like 20 years.
> And most over-ear headphones are already pretty fixable. Most brands provide spare parts for like 20 years.
Please, point me to the bluetooth/wireless noise-cancelling over-ear headphones that are pretty fixable at a level comparable to that of the Fairbuds here?
Note, it must meat ALL the criteria I listed. Missing anything makes answer worthless. e.g. If it offers everything except for bluetooth or noise-cancelling means it's worthless in this context, and cannot be considered.
Please, point me to the bluetooth/wireless noise-cancelling over-ear headphones that are pretty fixable at a level comparable to that of the Fairbuds here?
Note, it must meat ALL the criteria I listed. Missing anything makes answer worthless. e.g. If it offers everything except for bluetooth or noise-cancelling means it's worthless in this context, and cannot be considered.
AirPods Max are actually pretty repairable and the battery can be replaced.
Bose has repair service. It isn't self-service, so it depends if your goal is throwing less shit away, or being able to service your own devices.
‘Repair service’ often just means they’ll throw it away for you and ship you a new one.
I think it depends a lot on the product. Their aviation headsets and other non-consumer audio equipment gets repaired for sure
I'm familiar with Bose's repair service. This is not the same as Fairbuds, and does not meet the minimum requirements stipulated.
If you're going to be picky, you have to be specific.
Do you mean self-serviceable rather than just serviceable?
Do you mean self-serviceable rather than just serviceable?
I meant wired headphones.
>That is like Apple AirPods, those are very heavy and extended wear gets you tired.
Then maybe Fairbuds should charge 600$ to sweeten the deal.
Then maybe Fairbuds should charge 600$ to sweeten the deal.
I stopped reading at “Vegan Leather”. Can we call it what it is? Plastic.
Because that's not what people care about in this context. People are looking at this picture and they see something that looks like leather. You say "Vegan Leather" and the message they get is "No animals were killed for this product."
"I want the look and feel of leather, but not the specific ethical concerns."
"I want the look and feel of leather, but not the specific ethical concerns."
There's a term for that that's been used for decades: pleather, or plastic leather.
Rebranding just confuses the already confusing world of materials. It's a violation of the cooperative principle to sell a product: a shitty practice and not something on brand with "fair" and "open". Why not rebrand it "fossil fuel-based leather"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_leather
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/when-did-we-start-c...
Rebranding just confuses the already confusing world of materials. It's a violation of the cooperative principle to sell a product: a shitty practice and not something on brand with "fair" and "open". Why not rebrand it "fossil fuel-based leather"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_leather
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/when-did-we-start-c...
Faux leather or synthetic leather seem honest enough.
IMHO “vegan” implies it’s made from plan material and/or biodegradable if not edible
IMHO “vegan” implies it’s made from plan material and/or biodegradable if not edible
> "No animals were killed for this product."
Then this isn't leather. Let's just call things by their names.
Then this isn't leather. Let's just call things by their names.
I see "vegan" and I think "plant-based", which I doubt is the case here.
Especially since we had the term "fake leather" or "imitation leather" for a long time.
Is it plastic though? I remember seeing youtube clips where some companies make "vegan leather" from mushrooms. Plastic isn't quite the correct word here, when I think of plastic I think of hard plastic like in tupperware.
Why dont we call leather what it is - chemically treated skin
Because we're allowed to put words to new uses
Language is open-source
Because we're allowed to put words to new uses
Language is open-source
I know what leather is.
I’ve no idea what “vegan leather” is. Plastic, some sort of plant material, something else?
I’ve no idea what “vegan leather” is. Plastic, some sort of plant material, something else?
You can't charge nearly as much for "plastic" as for "vegan leather" though.
It’s funny how that works. I remember when fake leather was generally thought of as a bad thing, granted at times it could be really plastic like and brittle…. but at some point it clearly became both cheaper and really durable.
I wouldn’t mind if it just said “plastic” or “imitation leather”. It’s not a bad thing to my ears.
I’m remodeling my house and all the flooring I’m looking at looks like wood…. but it is not wood and I like that.
I wouldn’t mind if it just said “plastic” or “imitation leather”. It’s not a bad thing to my ears.
I’m remodeling my house and all the flooring I’m looking at looks like wood…. but it is not wood and I like that.
Is the platic leather durable though? Aside from the cars interior, I haven't noticed one that lasted more than a few years. Headphones are especially annoying in that the covers start falling apart long before other parts break.
It can be. The answer is 'it depends'.
The polyurethane based 'vegan leather' used in many automotive applications is typically more durable than leather. It also doesn't have any of the issues with regular leather related to drying out (it tends to crack if you don't add conditioners to it).
The polyurethane based 'vegan leather' used in many automotive applications is typically more durable than leather. It also doesn't have any of the issues with regular leather related to drying out (it tends to crack if you don't add conditioners to it).
That doesn't mean mean every conceivable use of words is helpful or desirable. "Vegan leather" is an oxymoron that only tells you what it isn't. It's barely more useful than "non-wooden".
>Why dont we call leather what it is - chemically treated skin
Because that's literally the definition of leather: "a material made from the skin of an animal by tanning or a similar process."
You may as well argue we should call headphones "a pair of earphones joined by a band placed over the head, for listening to audio signals such as music or speech."
Because that's literally the definition of leather: "a material made from the skin of an animal by tanning or a similar process."
You may as well argue we should call headphones "a pair of earphones joined by a band placed over the head, for listening to audio signals such as music or speech."
That was exactly my point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_leather
Because it wouldn't be very descriptive of the material texture & feel.
Vegan leather is basically trying to explain to the customer that it is like leather but not made from animal skin.
In the car industry they don't say seats covered in plastic - they say PU leather.
Vegan leather is 100% PU leather.
Vegan leather is basically trying to explain to the customer that it is like leather but not made from animal skin.
In the car industry they don't say seats covered in plastic - they say PU leather.
Vegan leather is 100% PU leather.
I’m sure most customers are more aware of fake/faux/synthetic leather than vegan leather.
It’s an attempt to rebrand it since those terms generally have negative historical connotations
It’s an attempt to rebrand it since those terms generally have negative historical connotations
That's not why. It's just a marketing spin on synthetic leather, and the marketing choice is both because veganism got popular and seen as a positive thing, and because PU leather, faux leather etc has established connotations as inferior substitutes to leather. They don't want you to feel that they cheap you out on the good thing.
And the car industry totally does the same. Look, for example, here: https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/news/general/2022/vegan-interior...
And the car industry totally does the same. Look, for example, here: https://www.bmwgroup.com/en/news/general/2022/vegan-interior...
> Vegan leather is 100% PU leather.
Or PVC. Or plant fibers stabilized with PLA and resin (those tend to make big deal about the "plant" part). or ...
Or PVC. Or plant fibers stabilized with PLA and resin (those tend to make big deal about the "plant" part). or ...
Plastic is ambiguous. There are many kinds. The word you want is pleather.
"Corinthian leather" is also meaningless, but it certainly doesn't stop ad copywriters from using the term if it sounds fancy.
Corinth is famous for its leather!
"Plastic" generates weird hang ups in many people apparently.
Looking at phone reviews, how reviewers insist on metal/glass material as having a "premium feel", and plastic parts getting described at best as "plastic but not cheap", I'd understand wanting to change the terminology.
The stone shouldn't be thrown at the maker on this one.
Looking at phone reviews, how reviewers insist on metal/glass material as having a "premium feel", and plastic parts getting described at best as "plastic but not cheap", I'd understand wanting to change the terminology.
The stone shouldn't be thrown at the maker on this one.
Of course that isn't the market these headphones are in, but that's also the problem. New bluetooth standard? New advances in noise-cancellation? You won't get them. Even if these headphones are great (which I doubt) they're still destined for the garbage heap.
Wireless headphones last a couple of years, where wired headphones last decades. These products won't be the exception, and the marketing angle (fair! environmentally friendly! repairable!) annoys me.