Don’t open the details in a modal window, have it be a separate page(youdontneedamodalwindow.dev)
youdontneedamodalwindow.dev
Don’t open the details in a modal window, have it be a separate page
https://youdontneedamodalwindow.dev/
306 comments
No disagreement. In my experience though, modals are used in far too many places. I think if your criteria were applied diligently to every design, this site (and the motivation behind it) wouldn't exist
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100% agree. Check e.g. this UI for moderating product reviews:
https://marmelab.com/react-admin-demo/#/reviews
When clicking on a review, the detail appear on the same page. This allows to quickly browse through reviews, and preview some before doing batch edition. It's super effective.
Notice that you can bookmark any review detail, too.
The article should have been called "I dont need a modal window".
https://marmelab.com/react-admin-demo/#/reviews
When clicking on a review, the detail appear on the same page. This allows to quickly browse through reviews, and preview some before doing batch edition. It's super effective.
Notice that you can bookmark any review detail, too.
The article should have been called "I dont need a modal window".
> Check e.g. this UI
That’s not a modal window, though. Modal windows are overlays [0] over the main page, here it’s to the side.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_window
That’s not a modal window, though. Modal windows are overlays [0] over the main page, here it’s to the side.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_window
> they allow for a discrete bit of work to be completed within the greater context of the app, without losing state or position.
Literally in the example the modal covers 100% of the view state. Most modals cover a big portion of the state.
Literally in the example the modal covers 100% of the view state. Most modals cover a big portion of the state.
The article is not inconsistent with this.
I'd go even further and say that modals make sense in almost any context where there's some underlying state whether it's a game, form, or even just scroll position in a forum thread.
And I don't see why the modal needs to be limited to quick jobs like inline edits. It could be the place where the bulk of the tasks are done.
Modals done well can remove anxiety and uncertainty from the user.
One example that comes to mind having just bought plane tickets is that the plane ticket flow could be an underlying all-on-one-page UI (flight -> seats -> payment) where each section opens as a form modal on top of that state. You can close modals, open previous sections, edit completed sections, where the modals communicated that you're not losing state by navigating between forms. One of the best UX aspects of the modal is seeing the underlying state behind it and behind able to click out of the modal to return to it.
Meanwhile, when buying tickets 30 min ago, the airline website had a sequence of pages where, I found out, going back to make an edit on a previous page reset the state of the subsequent pages. Obviously they could improve that without modals, but modals communicate state preservation by their nature.
Modals get too much hate just because they can be done poorly. Most UX is done poorly and that's not a reason to wash your hands of it.
And I don't see why the modal needs to be limited to quick jobs like inline edits. It could be the place where the bulk of the tasks are done.
Modals done well can remove anxiety and uncertainty from the user.
One example that comes to mind having just bought plane tickets is that the plane ticket flow could be an underlying all-on-one-page UI (flight -> seats -> payment) where each section opens as a form modal on top of that state. You can close modals, open previous sections, edit completed sections, where the modals communicated that you're not losing state by navigating between forms. One of the best UX aspects of the modal is seeing the underlying state behind it and behind able to click out of the modal to return to it.
Meanwhile, when buying tickets 30 min ago, the airline website had a sequence of pages where, I found out, going back to make an edit on a previous page reset the state of the subsequent pages. Obviously they could improve that without modals, but modals communicate state preservation by their nature.
Modals get too much hate just because they can be done poorly. Most UX is done poorly and that's not a reason to wash your hands of it.
Your example doesn’t suffer from, for example, not being able to bookmark a step in the booking process. At the end of the article, “forms to update/create entities” is specifically mentioned as a valid use case.
I don't understand what you mean without changing your double negative, but you can route URLs to modals.
I was pointing out that a booking funnel is not a place where this is necessarily a bad pattern, and this is already covered in the article. Their framing is that you should avoid modals for "resources", but it's fine for "forms that update/create entities". So that example is not in disagreement with their position.
> just scroll position in a forum thread.
but then you can't reference the thread without closing the modal (and likely losing all progress)
but then you can't reference the thread without closing the modal (and likely losing all progress)
> and likely losing all progress
This is one of my main points: good UX takes some thought. It's harder than doing the bare minimum. In this case, preserving someone's post in a <textarea> is the same concern whether it's in a modal or stuck at the bottom of the page. Neither using a modal nor not using a modal solve this for you.
It usually makes sense to introduce a localstorage draft system regardless of where the <textarea> appears on a forum.
This is one of my main points: good UX takes some thought. It's harder than doing the bare minimum. In this case, preserving someone's post in a <textarea> is the same concern whether it's in a modal or stuck at the bottom of the page. Neither using a modal nor not using a modal solve this for you.
It usually makes sense to introduce a localstorage draft system regardless of where the <textarea> appears on a forum.
It makes sense to reset seats when you change flight, it's domain logic, not interface logic.
Yes. But contact info, payment info, perhaps amenities, insurance, and all sorts of other components you might encounter in the process.
Most airline flows do preserve this information.
Most airline flows do preserve this information.
> Don't open the details in a modal window. Have it be a separate page.
This will worsen the UX more often than not. Guaranteed.
All complaints on the page are ultimately grievances against poorly thought-through implementations and as such they are rooted in the wrong thing. It's trivial to complement every modal window with a standalone version, in which case it's possible to bookmark them, middle-click on the links and what have you.
Start with the user experience, craft your implementation around that and all will be fine. Including the modal windows.
This will worsen the UX more often than not. Guaranteed.
All complaints on the page are ultimately grievances against poorly thought-through implementations and as such they are rooted in the wrong thing. It's trivial to complement every modal window with a standalone version, in which case it's possible to bookmark them, middle-click on the links and what have you.
Start with the user experience, craft your implementation around that and all will be fine. Including the modal windows.
> This will worsen the UX more often than not. Guaranteed.
The article states very clearly the use cases for which modals make sense:
The article states very clearly the use cases for which modals make sense:
Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity:
- Alerts
- Confirmation dialogs
- Forms for creating/updating entities
> As soon as something is a resource, that is, an article to read, a picture to watch, a diagram to open, a sound to play, in short anything for which it makes sense that it should be reachable via an URI, a modal is the wrong choice.
These feel incredibly unrelated to me. Why does that matter at all for the display choice? A modal is getting used because it's a view into another section of the application that doesn't lose the current location of the user.
Further - users (and I mean normal paying users, not HN commentators) rarely ever give a shit about URLs. It's just not important to most people what the string of characters is.
So...
Anywhere you've got multiple steps to complete, or an adjacent resource that might be related and viewed/edited in the context of the parent resource.
Or a form is being filled in and a user wants to enable extras, which requires filling in a different form, etc...
The modal is about not losing the current place for the user. Because most current users don't use multiple tabs/windows for the same product, and they don't pay any attention to the urls.
"Dont open a modal" in cases where the user is likely going to get lost in a detour otherwise is bad advice.
These feel incredibly unrelated to me. Why does that matter at all for the display choice? A modal is getting used because it's a view into another section of the application that doesn't lose the current location of the user.
Further - users (and I mean normal paying users, not HN commentators) rarely ever give a shit about URLs. It's just not important to most people what the string of characters is.
So...
Anywhere you've got multiple steps to complete, or an adjacent resource that might be related and viewed/edited in the context of the parent resource.
Or a form is being filled in and a user wants to enable extras, which requires filling in a different form, etc...
The modal is about not losing the current place for the user. Because most current users don't use multiple tabs/windows for the same product, and they don't pay any attention to the urls.
"Dont open a modal" in cases where the user is likely going to get lost in a detour otherwise is bad advice.
> Further - users (and I mean normal paying users, not HN commentators) rarely ever give a shit about URLs. It's just not important to most people what the string of characters is.
This is not correct. Normal users have learned that if they copy that URL thingie, and send it to someone else, that someone else will see the same thing they see now.
I don't know how many times I've received a link from someone saying "lol look at this hilarious dog" and ended up on some useless overview page completely devoid of hilarious dogs. Because some fucking designer decided to do exactly what TFA is complaining about.
This is not correct. Normal users have learned that if they copy that URL thingie, and send it to someone else, that someone else will see the same thing they see now.
I don't know how many times I've received a link from someone saying "lol look at this hilarious dog" and ended up on some useless overview page completely devoid of hilarious dogs. Because some fucking designer decided to do exactly what TFA is complaining about.
Fair, but there’s no reason a URL can’t resolve to a landing page and already open modal state populated with the content the other person shared to you. Deeplinking / permalinking works just as well with modals as it does with anchor named content blocks below the fold.
So, something can intrinsically work by default, or it can possibly work only when and if you go out of your way to make it work. Two totally equal choices!
> Two totally equal choices!
No, because in the one that intrinsically works, you're losing the user's context by navigating them away.
Which is what the modal is good for.
Whether that's worth it is a discussion, but at least this part of it is trivially easy to implement.
No, because in the one that intrinsically works, you're losing the user's context by navigating them away.
Which is what the modal is good for.
Whether that's worth it is a discussion, but at least this part of it is trivially easy to implement.
> you're losing the user's context
We're talking about BOOKMARKS, so what context do we lose? The users browsers home screen?
We're talking about BOOKMARKS, so what context do we lose? The users browsers home screen?
Sure, if you want to put in the effort to make it work. Most however don't and then their websites suck in that regard.
Permalinking has worked since Netscape 1.0 w/o any code from the developer. Why fight the system?
> ut there’s no reason a URL can’t resolve to a landing page and already open modal state populated with the content the other person shared to you.
I can think of 2 very good reasons right away:
1. It increases the complexity of the webpage
2. It makes it impossible to simply download or integrate the resource elsewhere
I can think of 2 very good reasons right away:
1. It increases the complexity of the webpage
2. It makes it impossible to simply download or integrate the resource elsewhere
> Further - users (and I mean normal paying users, not HN commentators) rarely ever give a shit about URLs.
Tell that to my non-techy spouse and her +1400 bookmarks. You know what her most recent rant was about? That she cannot bookmark certain timetables at a booking platform she uses. Why? Because guess what: The timetable shows in a modal.
> The modal is about not losing the current place for the user.
Resources opening in tabs also don't lose the place of the user. But you know what modals do usually lose the user? The ability to interact with anything but the model while it's open. A usual gem is a form which opens a modal, where I would then really really like to copypaste some info I already entered in another part of the form, but can't, because the effing modal is in the way. So I have to close it, and that usually wipes all the info in it.
> "Dont open a modal" in cases where the user is likely going to get lost in a detour otherwise is bad advice.
If a web design can cause the user to get lost in the first place, then the problem isn't that there is no modal, and adding one will likely not fix it.
Tell that to my non-techy spouse and her +1400 bookmarks. You know what her most recent rant was about? That she cannot bookmark certain timetables at a booking platform she uses. Why? Because guess what: The timetable shows in a modal.
> The modal is about not losing the current place for the user.
Resources opening in tabs also don't lose the place of the user. But you know what modals do usually lose the user? The ability to interact with anything but the model while it's open. A usual gem is a form which opens a modal, where I would then really really like to copypaste some info I already entered in another part of the form, but can't, because the effing modal is in the way. So I have to close it, and that usually wipes all the info in it.
> "Dont open a modal" in cases where the user is likely going to get lost in a detour otherwise is bad advice.
If a web design can cause the user to get lost in the first place, then the problem isn't that there is no modal, and adding one will likely not fix it.
Once again, these sound like issues with poorly done modals.
I've made multiple websites where URLs are routed to modals because the app made most sense as pages on top of an underlying state. GET /things/42/edit loads thing#42 in the background and opens the edit modal prefilled with thing#42's info.
A more obvious example is /login and /register in a modal, a cherry on top if logging in or registering doesn't reset app state if the user decides to register halfway through a task.
Preserving form data during navigation is something you have to consider for any form, even forms on the same page or separate pages where you don't want the form to clear when the user navigates away. One key design principle of modals is to make them mentally cheap to open/close/reopen, and modal state preservation is usually a part of that.
I've made multiple websites where URLs are routed to modals because the app made most sense as pages on top of an underlying state. GET /things/42/edit loads thing#42 in the background and opens the edit modal prefilled with thing#42's info.
A more obvious example is /login and /register in a modal, a cherry on top if logging in or registering doesn't reset app state if the user decides to register halfway through a task.
Preserving form data during navigation is something you have to consider for any form, even forms on the same page or separate pages where you don't want the form to clear when the user navigates away. One key design principle of modals is to make them mentally cheap to open/close/reopen, and modal state preservation is usually a part of that.
> A more obvious example is /login and /register in a modal, a cherry on top if logging in or registering doesn't reset app state if the user decides to register halfway through a task.
That cherry on top can be just as easily implemented by opening the /login in a new tab. Auth gets set, there, user is logged in even in the old tab, and doesn't lose his position in the page either.
Added cherry on top of that: If the user decides to log into the page halfway through the application, he can still bookmark the login page.
The same is true for almost every other use case of a modal where it displays a resource.
Tabs are builtin capabilities of the browser. Even terminal browsers like w3m support tabs. Why built something else that can be built poorly, instead of using what the browser already can do?
That cherry on top can be just as easily implemented by opening the /login in a new tab. Auth gets set, there, user is logged in even in the old tab, and doesn't lose his position in the page either.
Added cherry on top of that: If the user decides to log into the page halfway through the application, he can still bookmark the login page.
The same is true for almost every other use case of a modal where it displays a resource.
Tabs are builtin capabilities of the browser. Even terminal browsers like w3m support tabs. Why built something else that can be built poorly, instead of using what the browser already can do?
In your example, the work in progress page traditionally never gets to know that the user logged in until the user refreshes that page. That is exactly the status quo UX that sucks.
> until the user refreshes that page
Funny enough, a page-refresh is usually what happens, after I fill in a login form that appears in a modal.
But even if it doesn't do that: If the page is reachable without logging in, then what relevant information is there on the page to display to the user that is both so important that it immediately needs to appear on login, and so unimportant that it doesn't justify requiring a refresh?
And on the off chance that the use case actually requires that, what specific advantage does a modal confer over two input fields (Username, Password), tucked discreetly along a "Login" Button into the navbar?
Funny enough, a page-refresh is usually what happens, after I fill in a login form that appears in a modal.
But even if it doesn't do that: If the page is reachable without logging in, then what relevant information is there on the page to display to the user that is both so important that it immediately needs to appear on login, and so unimportant that it doesn't justify requiring a refresh?
And on the off chance that the use case actually requires that, what specific advantage does a modal confer over two input fields (Username, Password), tucked discreetly along a "Login" Button into the navbar?
Like all UX, the best solution depends on a multivariate consideration which is why you cannot dismiss modals with zero consideration.
For example, a username/password in the navbar can make a lot of sense. If it's slightly more complicated than that, like if login has multiple screens (e.g. 2fa token, maybe SSO), then a modal can make sense.
On a mobile screen, having username/password in your hamburger slide-out menu isn't automatically superior to extracting it into a modal.
> If the page is reachable without logging in, then what relevant information is there on the page to display to the user that is both so important that it immediately needs to appear on login, and so unimportant that it doesn't justify requiring a refresh
I can think of a lot of examples where this can polish the experience.
Once again, I'm brought back to the airline checkout process where you might have almost finished booking a flight but you want to get flight rewards and autofill your contact info at the last step and realize you want to log in.
Games are another example -- I've built a modal-based UI for a large casino where there's always a round-based game going on. Guests can watch it. They can login to play. Deposit, FAQ, player profiles, game history, etc. are all cheap interactions that users can view and dismiss while participating in the global game without losing their state. At any moment they can login which enhances most of the pages with additional content.
Fwiw, I'm arguing that modal should be a tool in one's UX toolbox, not something you use all the time.
For example, a username/password in the navbar can make a lot of sense. If it's slightly more complicated than that, like if login has multiple screens (e.g. 2fa token, maybe SSO), then a modal can make sense.
On a mobile screen, having username/password in your hamburger slide-out menu isn't automatically superior to extracting it into a modal.
> If the page is reachable without logging in, then what relevant information is there on the page to display to the user that is both so important that it immediately needs to appear on login, and so unimportant that it doesn't justify requiring a refresh
I can think of a lot of examples where this can polish the experience.
Once again, I'm brought back to the airline checkout process where you might have almost finished booking a flight but you want to get flight rewards and autofill your contact info at the last step and realize you want to log in.
Games are another example -- I've built a modal-based UI for a large casino where there's always a round-based game going on. Guests can watch it. They can login to play. Deposit, FAQ, player profiles, game history, etc. are all cheap interactions that users can view and dismiss while participating in the global game without losing their state. At any moment they can login which enhances most of the pages with additional content.
Fwiw, I'm arguing that modal should be a tool in one's UX toolbox, not something you use all the time.
You can polish authentication by not requiring it every day, not with a modal.
> these sound like issues with poorly done modals.
There is no other kind. The whole idea of modal window is stupid. It constrains the user instead of empowering them.
Solve the server's problems some other way that doesn't impact the user.
These days almost everything is a single page application so instead of opening a modal window just expand the button that would have opened the window inline instead.
> One key design principle of modals is to make them mentally cheap to open/close/reopen
Cheap for whom?
There is no other kind. The whole idea of modal window is stupid. It constrains the user instead of empowering them.
Solve the server's problems some other way that doesn't impact the user.
These days almost everything is a single page application so instead of opening a modal window just expand the button that would have opened the window inline instead.
> One key design principle of modals is to make them mentally cheap to open/close/reopen
Cheap for whom?
Modal can enhance UX. I've given examples in my post including an answer to your "Cheaper for whom?"
I don't think it's a good argument, you could also just use your own argument against you: Pages are only easy for developers but worse for users since you don't have to polish the UX in the way that a modal lets you. It's for developers that don't want to have to think about UX optimizations and defer everything to out of the box browser experiences. Which, granted, might be the best choice for everyone who doesn't want to think about UX.
But I find that to be an empty claim.
> These days almost everything is a single page application so instead of opening a modal window just expand the button that would have opened the window inline instead.
That is often a good choice. However, sometimes a modal makes more sense for an all-or-nothing task, or when the user is already in one of those "expando" forms, or a number of other occasions worth pondering for your app instead of dismissing modals without discretion.
Knowing when a modal does and does not make sense is part of a good intuition about UX.
I don't think it's a good argument, you could also just use your own argument against you: Pages are only easy for developers but worse for users since you don't have to polish the UX in the way that a modal lets you. It's for developers that don't want to have to think about UX optimizations and defer everything to out of the box browser experiences. Which, granted, might be the best choice for everyone who doesn't want to think about UX.
But I find that to be an empty claim.
> These days almost everything is a single page application so instead of opening a modal window just expand the button that would have opened the window inline instead.
That is often a good choice. However, sometimes a modal makes more sense for an all-or-nothing task, or when the user is already in one of those "expando" forms, or a number of other occasions worth pondering for your app instead of dismissing modals without discretion.
Knowing when a modal does and does not make sense is part of a good intuition about UX.
> URLs are routed to modals
In this current age, this usually means an SPA that will first load the underlying page, then the entire application bundle, start up the JS, detect the route, load the data for the modal over another request, and finally display the modal. In the multiple seconds this is happening, nothing indicates that a modal will be opened. Sounds familiar?
In this current age, this usually means an SPA that will first load the underlying page, then the entire application bundle, start up the JS, detect the route, load the data for the modal over another request, and finally display the modal. In the multiple seconds this is happening, nothing indicates that a modal will be opened. Sounds familiar?
You can think up poor implementations of everything. It's not a reason to not do something better.
Problem is, this is the standard, not a particularly poor implementation. I don't even know where to find an example that shows UI feedback before the modal is loaded.
And it's wrong about all of them.
Alerts don't need to stop the world.
Confirmation dialogs block examining the things that you want to confirm.
And forms for creating anything do not need to block access to the rest of the page.
Alerts don't need to stop the world.
Confirmation dialogs block examining the things that you want to confirm.
And forms for creating anything do not need to block access to the rest of the page.
Except I've seen countless times that users ignore stuff if they can, including important warnings etc.
Ideally confirmations should be kept to a minimum anyway (and instead ensure all actions are reversible), but in cases that's not possible I'd rather have a confirmation show in a modal where I can at least see the page/context it's referring to (and it goes without saying, all modals should be draggable, even for touchscreen devices) than a separate page entirely.
And if an action can't be performed then I'd much rather see the reason why in a modal window that grabs my attention and forces me to acknowledge it than a button that appears to do nothing but cause some easy-to-miss message show up elsewhere on the page.
> users ignore stuff if they can, including important warnings etc.
They sure do. Especially modal dialogs. Everybody has been trained to hit okay automatically, because they're so prevalent on things that don't matter. Good apps track history and have undo.
Apps that have changes that matter use more drastic things than modal dialogs. Just try deleting things on AWS.
They sure do. Especially modal dialogs. Everybody has been trained to hit okay automatically, because they're so prevalent on things that don't matter. Good apps track history and have undo.
Apps that have changes that matter use more drastic things than modal dialogs. Just try deleting things on AWS.
I tend to agree. Modals are just contextually different things and even if some/most of your users understand that it's extra cognative load that may not be required for what the app or web page is doing.
Such questions as "if I close this modal is that different from using the cancel button?" should not even need to be dealt with by the user.
Such questions as "if I close this modal is that different from using the cancel button?" should not even need to be dealt with by the user.
I agree, and I also don't think that modals should be used for these things. I merely also agree with the article that these are use cases when a modal "can" be used. It still isn't a good solution, but at least it doesn't actively hurt my ability to access a resource.
Modal sometimes also works as a peek view of a resource. As when there are many resource in a list, you don't want to open every one in a new tab.
In fact, you can make a link open modal with left click but open in new tab with middle click. I think it is the most balanced way in my opinion.
Modal and tab can co-exist. They are not really mutually exclusive.
BTW, social media websites generally implements this in their feed view. A image behaves different when you click it with middle or left click.
In fact, you can make a link open modal with left click but open in new tab with middle click. I think it is the most balanced way in my opinion.
Modal and tab can co-exist. They are not really mutually exclusive.
BTW, social media websites generally implements this in their feed view. A image behaves different when you click it with middle or left click.
> Modal sometimes also works as a peek view of a resource.
That's what thumbnails and stubs are for.
> In fact, you can make a link open modal with left click but open in new tab with middle click. I think it is the most balanced way in my opinion.
Cool. How do I "middle click" on my phone? Left click is "open resource" by default. If a webapp doesn't have a damn good reason to overwrite the browsers default behavior, it shouldn't.
And "we thought it would make the design really pop", is not one of those reasons.
That's what thumbnails and stubs are for.
> In fact, you can make a link open modal with left click but open in new tab with middle click. I think it is the most balanced way in my opinion.
Cool. How do I "middle click" on my phone? Left click is "open resource" by default. If a webapp doesn't have a damn good reason to overwrite the browsers default behavior, it shouldn't.
And "we thought it would make the design really pop", is not one of those reasons.
> Cool. How do I "middle click" on my phone?
Try long press and open in new tab.
Besides, open in modal don't even mean the url won't change. Fb, reddit both open in popup AND change the url. Copy the url to other browser would just work as intended.
It is already a resolved problem in my opinion.
Try long press and open in new tab.
Besides, open in modal don't even mean the url won't change. Fb, reddit both open in popup AND change the url. Copy the url to other browser would just work as intended.
It is already a resolved problem in my opinion.
> but at least this part of it is trivially easy to implement.
It was a resolved problem before that, by letting the browser do what the browser is good at, instead of implementing new UI paradigms on top of it.
> Besides, open in modal don't even mean the url won't change. Fb, reddit both open in popup AND change the url.
So I add more code, and thus more complexity to websites, in order for the browser to behave in the way it would have already behaved in the first place, had I not thrown the modal in there, and instead let it work as intended.
It was a resolved problem before that, by letting the browser do what the browser is good at, instead of implementing new UI paradigms on top of it.
> Besides, open in modal don't even mean the url won't change. Fb, reddit both open in popup AND change the url.
So I add more code, and thus more complexity to websites, in order for the browser to behave in the way it would have already behaved in the first place, had I not thrown the modal in there, and instead let it work as intended.
Modern social websites uses infinite scroll, and infinite scroll don't really work with browser's back navigation button. A direct navigation means you lost your read position completely. Hence nobody ever navigate directly.
> Modern social websites uses infinite scroll, and infinite scroll don't really work with browser's back navigation button
Yes, and the same can happen with any number of other things, like a keybind that scrolls back, or a link in the feed the user accidentially clicks.
Which is part of the reason why infinite scroll falls under the same category as modals as far as I am concerned. There is a reason why pages with lots of entries are paginated.
Yes, and the same can happen with any number of other things, like a keybind that scrolls back, or a link in the feed the user accidentially clicks.
Which is part of the reason why infinite scroll falls under the same category as modals as far as I am concerned. There is a reason why pages with lots of entries are paginated.
Depending on my use-case I strongly prefer a modal. A new tab would be highly disruptive, if I just wanted a glimpse over the content.
This is yet another instance of optimizing for something that can not be made perfect. Let me decide what I want. Give me the option to do both without much of a hassle. If a decision needs to be made regarding what should happen on a mouse-click, one may choose a sensible default (i.e. what is the most typical use-case), while leaving the option to configure the other choice.
You can always argue that many options are a non-goal, but any sufficiently sophisticated software needs training anyway. Configuration can be a part of that. Nothing is worse than a program in which the designer chose to make your use-case to be painful to be met.
Furthermore, a uri does not need to be bound to a view. In fact, one might prefer different ways to look at the same data.
This is yet another instance of optimizing for something that can not be made perfect. Let me decide what I want. Give me the option to do both without much of a hassle. If a decision needs to be made regarding what should happen on a mouse-click, one may choose a sensible default (i.e. what is the most typical use-case), while leaving the option to configure the other choice.
You can always argue that many options are a non-goal, but any sufficiently sophisticated software needs training anyway. Configuration can be a part of that. Nothing is worse than a program in which the designer chose to make your use-case to be painful to be met.
Furthermore, a uri does not need to be bound to a view. In fact, one might prefer different ways to look at the same data.
A new tab would be highly disruptive, if I just wanted a glimpse over the content.
I know how to close a tab, be it via keyboard shortcut or mouse click. I know how to resize it. I know how to print it. When content I want to glimpse at opens in a modal, I know none of that. Even if it is well designed, different sites will have different engagement paradigms.
My current pet peeve with modals is when I try to select text with the mouse, and drag past the edge of the modal, it closes.
I know how to close a tab, be it via keyboard shortcut or mouse click. I know how to resize it. I know how to print it. When content I want to glimpse at opens in a modal, I know none of that. Even if it is well designed, different sites will have different engagement paradigms.
My current pet peeve with modals is when I try to select text with the mouse, and drag past the edge of the modal, it closes.
This is why I encouraged the choice of configuration, as can bee seen in the paragraphs below your citation. The intended message of my comment is that different people prefer different things.
Modal windows and how they interact with the user is obviously something that should be standardized, but that is a different discussion.
Modal windows and how they interact with the user is obviously something that should be standardized, but that is a different discussion.
> Modal windows and how they interact with the user is obviously something that should be standardized,
It already is. It's called tabs.
It already is. It's called tabs.
So what about people with screen readers? They don't (middle) click or type at all. Does your UX account for them too? If so: great. Usually, it's overlooked. I think that's the point of this article. Standard browser controls are all 100% accessible by default.
Clearly “middle-click” was just an example of how to open a link in new tab. Screen readers don’t have a way to do that?
No, at least not in VoiceOver, which I use. In my experience, screen readers/assistants don't mimic the left/middle/right click of the mouse [0]. You often get two options: left click and double click [1]. There is also a right-click menu (control space), but unless it is based on a system-native UI, it is likely to be unusable for SR.
[0]: It is even easier to not use a mouse, when you are using an assistant. With a keyboard and VO you can resize, drag and drop and do many more activities.
[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10...
[0]: It is even easier to not use a mouse, when you are using an assistant. With a keyboard and VO you can resize, drag and drop and do many more activities.
[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/guide/voiceover/mchlp2746/10...
I don’t have a Mac to try it but a quick web search suggests Command+Return.
Uh, that's interesting, but it does not work for me :(
AFAIK, VO+Command+Return can be used to select multiple things, not to click. For example, in the file viewer (Finder.app, similar to Nautilus/explorer.exe), it is similar to pressing Control (win/linux) and the left mouse button when the cursor is over a file to add it to the selection.
Edit: To open a page in a new tab in a Firefox with stock VoiceOver, I need to press VO+Shift+M to open context menu (aka right-click menu), and then select an option from the list (by greping, using arrows etc.).
AFAIK, VO+Command+Return can be used to select multiple things, not to click. For example, in the file viewer (Finder.app, similar to Nautilus/explorer.exe), it is similar to pressing Control (win/linux) and the left mouse button when the cursor is over a file to add it to the selection.
Edit: To open a page in a new tab in a Firefox with stock VoiceOver, I need to press VO+Shift+M to open context menu (aka right-click menu), and then select an option from the list (by greping, using arrows etc.).
VoiceOver is most often, and best, paired with Safari.
By default, Command-Return, no VO key, opens a focused link in a new tab behind the current tab. It's not a VoiceOver-specific keyboard command. It also works in Firefox and Chrome.
However, by default, Safari does not focus links when pressing the Tab key, you need to go to Settings > Advanced and check "Press Tab to highlight each item on a webpage" first.
By default, Command-Return, no VO key, opens a focused link in a new tab behind the current tab. It's not a VoiceOver-specific keyboard command. It also works in Firefox and Chrome.
However, by default, Safari does not focus links when pressing the Tab key, you need to go to Settings > Advanced and check "Press Tab to highlight each item on a webpage" first.
Thanks, I didn't know about that.
Even if a screen reader does, someone using a touch screen usually doesn't. If you step out of your bubble for a moment you'll notice that quite a lot of non-technical people no longer have computers, they do everything on a mobile device of some sort which typically does not have a mouse or keyboard.
On a touch screen it’s typically something like long press -> Open in New Tab. Or you’re saying that’s beyond most people?
I'm quite confident that you wouldn't have to interview many people to discover that even though it is not beyond people that it is unknown to many.
I know several non-technical people who find the distinction between window and tab difficult to manage for instance. As well as people who have had Android mobiles for years and still don't understand those three little buttons at the bottom of the screen: back, home, 'task' list.
I know several non-technical people who find the distinction between window and tab difficult to manage for instance. As well as people who have had Android mobiles for years and still don't understand those three little buttons at the bottom of the screen: back, home, 'task' list.
This is the conversation I think we’ve just had:
Personally I’d prefer us to prioritize building a web of addressable resources rather than applications, and to the extent that our user agents aren’t meeting our needs, improve them rather than work around them.
d: Represent resources only as standard hypertext documents.
h: Progressively enhance with nonstandard features. The traditional
affordances of hypertext will remain available—for example,
middle clicking to branch browser history.
k: But screen readers can’t middle click.
a: Branching is afforded by *some* interface though, right?
w: Not on touch screens.
a: Not even by using the touch interface?
w: Nope. You can’t expect everyone to know how to use it.
Personally I’d prefer us to prioritize building a web of addressable resources rather than applications, and to the extent that our user agents aren’t meeting our needs, improve them rather than work around them.
> to the extent that our user agents aren’t meeting our needs, improve them rather than work around them.
Most of us are in no position to improve our user agents only large organizations like Google or Mozilla can do that. In fact calling them user agents is extremely misleading in most cases.
If they were genuinely user agents they would obey the user not the server. They would assist the user to a much greater degree than they do now; for instance there is no native way of saving the rendered page in either Firefox or Chrome so sharing a page is exceptionally difficult if the URL points at a resource that require logging in and also risks that the resource changes before the recipient can read it. One has to install an add on to do that and hope that the author doesn't get bored of maintaining it or piss off the Chrome Store or whatever it is called.
Most of us are in no position to improve our user agents only large organizations like Google or Mozilla can do that. In fact calling them user agents is extremely misleading in most cases.
If they were genuinely user agents they would obey the user not the server. They would assist the user to a much greater degree than they do now; for instance there is no native way of saving the rendered page in either Firefox or Chrome so sharing a page is exceptionally difficult if the URL points at a resource that require logging in and also risks that the resource changes before the recipient can read it. One has to install an add on to do that and hope that the author doesn't get bored of maintaining it or piss off the Chrome Store or whatever it is called.
Are you confusing screen readers with voice control software? Screen readers are most often used by people with vision impairments; with desktop operating systems, they use a keyboard not just for typing in form fields but to navigate and control all the websites and software on their device instead of a mouse or other device that operates a cursor.
Voice control software is used most often by people with limited use of their hands, verbal commands replace keyboard and cursor control inputs.
> Standard browser controls are all 100% accessible by default.
Unfortunately, this is not entirely true. For instance, `select` elements and their options don't reflow in most browsers. It is true that the native elements are much more accessible than most alternatives developers create.
Voice control software is used most often by people with limited use of their hands, verbal commands replace keyboard and cursor control inputs.
> Standard browser controls are all 100% accessible by default.
Unfortunately, this is not entirely true. For instance, `select` elements and their options don't reflow in most browsers. It is true that the native elements are much more accessible than most alternatives developers create.
Accessibility support is a matter of priorities for a given project.
If 99.99% of your target audience is not using screen readers, then you need to decide if worsening their experience to accommodate the other 0.01% aligns with your project plans and goals.
In some cases it will, in some it won't. It depends.
If 99.99% of your target audience is not using screen readers, then you need to decide if worsening their experience to accommodate the other 0.01% aligns with your project plans and goals.
In some cases it will, in some it won't. It depends.
First, in the US accessibility support is the law. While it is far from well* enforced, your simple formulation of “priorities” obscures the fact that the team is prioritizing convenience vs law. Yes we all do this when deciding, say, how fast to drive. But we know when we are speeding.
Second: in physical space: ramps are required to be implemented in a way that supports wheelchair use. Yet they create alternative affordances: I have appreciated them when when I have broken a limb, for example, even though they weren’t “intended” for that. They are clearly mostly used by delivery people; not only does it make deliveries easier, but reduces incidents of injuries, strains etc.
The same applies to web sites: cleaner affordances allow people to use the page in ways not imagined by the designer.
* By imperfectly I don’t mean “not hyper vigilantly”, I mean that it is often observed in the breach; sometimes it can have negative effects (consider the Berkeley videos case), etc. But that is much better than no attempt at all.
Second: in physical space: ramps are required to be implemented in a way that supports wheelchair use. Yet they create alternative affordances: I have appreciated them when when I have broken a limb, for example, even though they weren’t “intended” for that. They are clearly mostly used by delivery people; not only does it make deliveries easier, but reduces incidents of injuries, strains etc.
The same applies to web sites: cleaner affordances allow people to use the page in ways not imagined by the designer.
* By imperfectly I don’t mean “not hyper vigilantly”, I mean that it is often observed in the breach; sometimes it can have negative effects (consider the Berkeley videos case), etc. But that is much better than no attempt at all.
> First, in the US accessibility support is the law
Only for governments or businesses that are open to the public. I've rarely worked on those type of websites. But plenty of B2B stuff. There's a ton of it.
Only for governments or businesses that are open to the public. I've rarely worked on those type of websites. But plenty of B2B stuff. There's a ton of it.
Not your main point, but in the Berkeley videos case I blame, well, Berkeley. They could have taken the videos offline temporarily, worked on transcribing them, and brought them back gradually (they have the resources or, if they’re too cheap, could have resorted to crowdsourcing). Taking that wealth of knowledge offline so abruptly, and with no plan to ever bring it back, is really a disgrace. The videos live on thanks to Archive Team, but they’re not as easy to discover.
> Accessibility support is a matter of priorities for a given project.
It is painful that some managers, architects or developers might think this way. Accessibility is not just for disabled people, such as the blind or those who have lost a limb. In the kitchen, for example, it is great to have push to open drawers (e.g. based on IKEA's EXCEPTIONELL [0]). If your hands are dirty, you can still open the kitchen drawer without getting anything else dirty. And this is just one example of accessibility.
Personally, I see screen readers as an additional tool (like Copilot or ChatGPT) to be used on a daily basis by keyboard users.
Screen readers can also help you, even if you are sighted. For example, with a ShortCat.app [1] I have a system-wide ace jump [2] with a command list. I don't have to use the mouse to move the cursor - I have a keyboard for that. But in applications that are not compatible with screen readers, you can only choose "close", "minimise", "maximise" buttons, and the first option - close - is the best for such an application (e.g. Sublime Text).
In other cases, SR/SA will read the text for you. If you are too tired to read, or your hands are occupied with a sandwich or utensils, you can use SR to read an article or paragraph for you.
[0]: https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/exceptionell-drawer-medium-with...
[1]: https://shortcat.app/
[2]: https://github.com/acejump/AceJump
It is painful that some managers, architects or developers might think this way. Accessibility is not just for disabled people, such as the blind or those who have lost a limb. In the kitchen, for example, it is great to have push to open drawers (e.g. based on IKEA's EXCEPTIONELL [0]). If your hands are dirty, you can still open the kitchen drawer without getting anything else dirty. And this is just one example of accessibility.
Personally, I see screen readers as an additional tool (like Copilot or ChatGPT) to be used on a daily basis by keyboard users.
Screen readers can also help you, even if you are sighted. For example, with a ShortCat.app [1] I have a system-wide ace jump [2] with a command list. I don't have to use the mouse to move the cursor - I have a keyboard for that. But in applications that are not compatible with screen readers, you can only choose "close", "minimise", "maximise" buttons, and the first option - close - is the best for such an application (e.g. Sublime Text).
In other cases, SR/SA will read the text for you. If you are too tired to read, or your hands are occupied with a sandwich or utensils, you can use SR to read an article or paragraph for you.
[0]: https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/exceptionell-drawer-medium-with...
[1]: https://shortcat.app/
[2]: https://github.com/acejump/AceJump
[deleted]
I know 99.99% is just an example, but that's a pretty high estimate. I'm seeing estimates for vision impairment at 2% and color blindness at 4% [1] of the US population.
I'm also reminded that people use screen readers or other assistive tech for non-disability reasons. Like increasing font size when tired or when using a website in a foreign language. Plus, building assessible websites may be required by law, such as ADA requirements in the US.
[1] https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/57340/percentage-of-s...
I'm also reminded that people use screen readers or other assistive tech for non-disability reasons. Like increasing font size when tired or when using a website in a foreign language. Plus, building assessible websites may be required by law, such as ADA requirements in the US.
[1] https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/57340/percentage-of-s...
This is, to be blunt, narrow-sighted; most accessibility support is rooted in best practices for every user. Screen readers are only one use case, other things that people don't even consciously think about and take for granted when they use a webpage or app are things like zooming in, focus/reader modes, light/dark modes, performance, print views, copy/pasting content, SEO / searchability, bookmarkability (e.g. headings & anchors in webpages, also used by screen reader users to quickly navigate a page), etc.
99.99% of accessibility things are covered if you just follow normal, established software development practices. Unfortunately, a lot of software developers overcomplicate things, for example by adding modal dialogs to websites. Modals are common and established design patterns in desktop apps, but not so in web and mobile apps. Applying one environment's UX patterns to another is asking for trouble.
99.99% of accessibility things are covered if you just follow normal, established software development practices. Unfortunately, a lot of software developers overcomplicate things, for example by adding modal dialogs to websites. Modals are common and established design patterns in desktop apps, but not so in web and mobile apps. Applying one environment's UX patterns to another is asking for trouble.
>most accessibility support is rooted in best practices for every user.
This isn't quite true, when you get into things like using aria attributes. I definitely wouldn't put it at 99.99%. And I think a lot of vendors of accessibility software get to skate where others would have their feet held to the fire. They could be doing more to make their software easier to use and for developers to make it accessible.
I used to work as a contractor for the CDC, so I have experience in web development that is held to a higher accessibility standard (we had an actual real person who would verify our work and certify that it was accessible.)
Some things that come to mind are color contrast ratios where you have to pass different levels (AA vs. AAA) https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/
And being able to navigate a site with a keyboard, or announce when sections change. That stuff isn't automatic. It might be baked into whatever framework you're using, but those frameworks have bugs too.
Here's an example I ran into with React Native, and it's still not clear if they ever fixed it or if it just got closed as stale: https://github.com/facebook/react-native/issues/27989
This isn't quite true, when you get into things like using aria attributes. I definitely wouldn't put it at 99.99%. And I think a lot of vendors of accessibility software get to skate where others would have their feet held to the fire. They could be doing more to make their software easier to use and for developers to make it accessible.
I used to work as a contractor for the CDC, so I have experience in web development that is held to a higher accessibility standard (we had an actual real person who would verify our work and certify that it was accessible.)
Some things that come to mind are color contrast ratios where you have to pass different levels (AA vs. AAA) https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/
And being able to navigate a site with a keyboard, or announce when sections change. That stuff isn't automatic. It might be baked into whatever framework you're using, but those frameworks have bugs too.
Here's an example I ran into with React Native, and it's still not clear if they ever fixed it or if it just got closed as stale: https://github.com/facebook/react-native/issues/27989
Boo! That attitude hurts people, and is against the law for good reasons.
And even if you have no empathy so you don't give a shit about anything unless it affects you directly (in which case UI design isn't for you), then consider that unless you die young or have supernaturally perfect health, you're going to need accessibility features yourself some day, so your lazy anti-accessibility attitude is going to come back and bite you in the ass.
And you're dead wrong that accessibility necessarily worsens the experience for people without disabilities. It's useful for everyone.
Please leave the user interface design to other better educated more compassionate people, and stick to the back-end yourself.
And even if you have no empathy so you don't give a shit about anything unless it affects you directly (in which case UI design isn't for you), then consider that unless you die young or have supernaturally perfect health, you're going to need accessibility features yourself some day, so your lazy anti-accessibility attitude is going to come back and bite you in the ass.
And you're dead wrong that accessibility necessarily worsens the experience for people without disabilities. It's useful for everyone.
Please leave the user interface design to other better educated more compassionate people, and stick to the back-end yourself.
Speaking about empathy, might want to use some to get his point. He isn't talking about himself. He is talking about a typical software business making business decisions.
If adding support for accessibility delays their product delivery, or raises their costs, it's another tradeoff that might even kill their product. And then it wont be a case of the software not being accessible to those needing those features, but it not being accessible to anybody.
Sure, where the law mandates it, they can always do a half-ass job to be, in name, compliant. But full (or proper) accessibility will be judged in the end like any other feature decision.
You might consider those features essential, but you'd be surprised how many business features get cut to get something out, even more so for an MVP.
If you think those designing most websites and apps people use are made by "more compassionate people" who'd jump on such features out of ethical concerns, you'd be quite off.
Heck, this very website (HN) has a quite bad accessibility track record even considering the average website. Among other things: image elements do not have [alt] attributes, form elements do not have associated labels, links do not have a discernible name.
And this is from a major VC company with tons of resources, and a place where thousands upon thousands of devs frequent.
So, while everybody can get their "morally superior and empathetic" rocks off judging the parent, the reality is more like what's described above. It isn't bad if somebody points to the reality - or to the hypocrisy, if we're to see it ethically.
If adding support for accessibility delays their product delivery, or raises their costs, it's another tradeoff that might even kill their product. And then it wont be a case of the software not being accessible to those needing those features, but it not being accessible to anybody.
Sure, where the law mandates it, they can always do a half-ass job to be, in name, compliant. But full (or proper) accessibility will be judged in the end like any other feature decision.
You might consider those features essential, but you'd be surprised how many business features get cut to get something out, even more so for an MVP.
If you think those designing most websites and apps people use are made by "more compassionate people" who'd jump on such features out of ethical concerns, you'd be quite off.
Heck, this very website (HN) has a quite bad accessibility track record even considering the average website. Among other things: image elements do not have [alt] attributes, form elements do not have associated labels, links do not have a discernible name.
And this is from a major VC company with tons of resources, and a place where thousands upon thousands of devs frequent.
So, while everybody can get their "morally superior and empathetic" rocks off judging the parent, the reality is more like what's described above. It isn't bad if somebody points to the reality - or to the hypocrisy, if we're to see it ethically.
That's a shallow knee-jerk interpretation of what I was actually referring to.
Put my remarks in the context of a startup that has a limited runway and needs to choose between working on something that would appeal, entice and attract the majority of their target user base and trying to accommodate the needs of the fraction of the same. You can "boo" all you want, but their choice will be obvious, as it should be perfectly understandable, even for people from the second group.
> Please leave the user interface design to other better educated more compassionate people, and stick to the back-end yourself.
Ah, a gratuitous personal attack, the best way to strengthen any argument.
Put my remarks in the context of a startup that has a limited runway and needs to choose between working on something that would appeal, entice and attract the majority of their target user base and trying to accommodate the needs of the fraction of the same. You can "boo" all you want, but their choice will be obvious, as it should be perfectly understandable, even for people from the second group.
> Please leave the user interface design to other better educated more compassionate people, and stick to the back-end yourself.
Ah, a gratuitous personal attack, the best way to strengthen any argument.
Pulling totally bogus statistics out of your ass like "99.99% of your target audience is not using screen readers" is not the best foundation for your dubious argument for using modal dialogs and against supporting accessibility. And your claim that accessibility "worsen[s] their [non-disabled users] experience" is flat out wrong, so it's hard to take you seriously.
And anyway, a lot more people would regularly and happily use screen readers if it weren't for all those badly and lazily designed web sites and user interfaces that use modal dialogs and don't bother supporting accessibility, which make them much less useful and accessible for everyone.
Speaking of context: Even if screen readers or people with disabilities did not exist, there are still many important legitimate reasons not to use modal dialogs, and still many perfectly reasonable alternatives, so your bogus statistical argument for using modal dialogs is still dubious and doesn't address any of those other issues.
https://ddiy.co/web-accessibility-statistics
>Here are the numbers regarding how many people have disabilities that make accessibility features necessary when surfing the internet.
>4.9% of U.S. adults have a vision disability with blindness or serious difficulty seeing even when wearing glasses, requiring screen readers.
>5.7% of U.S. adults are deaf or have serious difficulty hearing.
>10.8% of people with a disability have a cognition disability with serious difficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions.
>There are an estimated 300 million people in the world with color vision deficiency which requires color-adjusting tools on sites.
>About 16% of people who use screen readers have multiple disabilities.
>Roughly a quarter of Americans with disabilities (26%) say they have high-speed internet at home, a smartphone, a desktop or laptop computer, and a tablet compared with 44% of those who report not having a disability.
>18% of US adults report that they have a disability, according to this survey, which asked respondents if any “disability, handicap, or chronic disease keeps you from participating fully in work, school, housework, or other activities.”
>Americans with disabilities are three times as likely as those without a disability to say they never go online (15% vs. 5%.)
>By 2050 nearly 2.5 billion people are projected to have some degree of hearing loss and at least 700 million will require hearing rehabilitation.
>By 2060 the number of people 65 or older is expected to double to 98 million.
Another point is that screen readers aren't only useful for blind people. Here's a demo of a screen reader that I implemented for reading the long but amusing catalog object descriptions in The Sims ("Simplifier" demo starts at 3:15), that's useful for kids who aren't good at reading yet (but want to learn while playing a game), and anyone who is too impatient to read all the tiny text on the screen:
Demo of The Sims Transmogrifier, RugOMatic, ShowNTell, Simplifier and Slice City:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imu1v3GecB8
Also check out the "talking pie menus" and tool palette in X11 SimCity (aka open source Micropolis):
X11 SimCity Demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvi98wVUmQA
OLPC SimCity Demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpKhh10K-j0
And anyway, a lot more people would regularly and happily use screen readers if it weren't for all those badly and lazily designed web sites and user interfaces that use modal dialogs and don't bother supporting accessibility, which make them much less useful and accessible for everyone.
Speaking of context: Even if screen readers or people with disabilities did not exist, there are still many important legitimate reasons not to use modal dialogs, and still many perfectly reasonable alternatives, so your bogus statistical argument for using modal dialogs is still dubious and doesn't address any of those other issues.
https://ddiy.co/web-accessibility-statistics
>Here are the numbers regarding how many people have disabilities that make accessibility features necessary when surfing the internet.
>4.9% of U.S. adults have a vision disability with blindness or serious difficulty seeing even when wearing glasses, requiring screen readers.
>5.7% of U.S. adults are deaf or have serious difficulty hearing.
>10.8% of people with a disability have a cognition disability with serious difficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions.
>There are an estimated 300 million people in the world with color vision deficiency which requires color-adjusting tools on sites.
>About 16% of people who use screen readers have multiple disabilities.
>Roughly a quarter of Americans with disabilities (26%) say they have high-speed internet at home, a smartphone, a desktop or laptop computer, and a tablet compared with 44% of those who report not having a disability.
>18% of US adults report that they have a disability, according to this survey, which asked respondents if any “disability, handicap, or chronic disease keeps you from participating fully in work, school, housework, or other activities.”
>Americans with disabilities are three times as likely as those without a disability to say they never go online (15% vs. 5%.)
>By 2050 nearly 2.5 billion people are projected to have some degree of hearing loss and at least 700 million will require hearing rehabilitation.
>By 2060 the number of people 65 or older is expected to double to 98 million.
Another point is that screen readers aren't only useful for blind people. Here's a demo of a screen reader that I implemented for reading the long but amusing catalog object descriptions in The Sims ("Simplifier" demo starts at 3:15), that's useful for kids who aren't good at reading yet (but want to learn while playing a game), and anyone who is too impatient to read all the tiny text on the screen:
Demo of The Sims Transmogrifier, RugOMatic, ShowNTell, Simplifier and Slice City:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imu1v3GecB8
Also check out the "talking pie menus" and tool palette in X11 SimCity (aka open source Micropolis):
X11 SimCity Demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvi98wVUmQA
OLPC SimCity Demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpKhh10K-j0
> Pulling totally bogus statistics out of your ass like "99.99% of your target audience
Please make some effort when refuting the arguments of others. See "target audience" in the part that you quoted? That's the keyword.
If one's making an augmented reality app that assists car mechanics in repairs, what would you say be the percentage of screen-reader wielding people there?
> And your claim that accessibility "worsen[s] their [non-disabled users] experience" is flat out wrong
For one, you are taking it out of context. For two, you keep repeating something as if it would make it true.
Here's a little exercise - consider what it would take to make https://finviz.com/bubbles.ashx page accessible. Then, consider what the target audience here is and ponder the choice of working on things that would benefit said audience (i.e. improving their experience) and refactoring the page to be compatible with screen readers. That's what I was referring to in the original comment. It's all in the context, it depends.
Please make some effort when refuting the arguments of others. See "target audience" in the part that you quoted? That's the keyword.
If one's making an augmented reality app that assists car mechanics in repairs, what would you say be the percentage of screen-reader wielding people there?
> And your claim that accessibility "worsen[s] their [non-disabled users] experience" is flat out wrong
For one, you are taking it out of context. For two, you keep repeating something as if it would make it true.
Here's a little exercise - consider what it would take to make https://finviz.com/bubbles.ashx page accessible. Then, consider what the target audience here is and ponder the choice of working on things that would benefit said audience (i.e. improving their experience) and refactoring the page to be compatible with screen readers. That's what I was referring to in the original comment. It's all in the context, it depends.
Adding keyboard control to an app makes it better for blind users and power users. Adding alt text to images makes it better for blind users and SEO. Adding ARIA tags makes a page better for blind users and for testing with things like testing-library.
I haven't found a single case where improving accessibility doesn't also result in a meaningful improvement for some set of users who don't need accessible features. There is absolutely no good reason not to make things accessible. Heck, I'd make an app accessible even if I had irrefutable proof that it had no users who need it to be accessible.
I haven't found a single case where improving accessibility doesn't also result in a meaningful improvement for some set of users who don't need accessible features. There is absolutely no good reason not to make things accessible. Heck, I'd make an app accessible even if I had irrefutable proof that it had no users who need it to be accessible.
This was a common argument in the early 2000s, until, you know, someone looked at real world data and figured that something like 10-30% of a website’s audience usually benefits from accessibility features. Accessibility is not only about supporting complete blindness or other stereotypical disabilities.
Accessibility is hugely important and every single html project people work on should at the very absolute least strive to satisfy the chrome light houses accessibility suggestions. It is _really_ not difficult to attain a basic level of accessibility and with a small effort by UX and product people the entire application could be easily usable by anyone able to currently use a computer.
I worked in a consulting company, which estimated accessability requirements to increase web development costs by 10%. It's easy to imagine some big successfull company paying it up like it's peanuts, but it's another hurdle for companies living on the edge. I was in another company that had done a lot of work on accessability. But in the end, they ran out of money and released their software extremely buggy, which contributed to their product failure and bankruptcy.
Non-bugginess is also accessability, but I don't see a law saying that you can't release unfinished software. So how would accessability be anything more than all the others unimplemented issues stuck in the backlog?
Non-bugginess is also accessability, but I don't see a law saying that you can't release unfinished software. So how would accessability be anything more than all the others unimplemented issues stuck in the backlog?
There should be zero legal requirement to do so - I just meant to say there is a lot of low hanging accessibility fruit that doesn't require a large amount of time and money to implement that will give everyone using a computer a better experience.
> Accessibility support is a matter of priorities for a given project.
Not any more. In the US this hasn't been the case for years since 2019 [1], and in Europe a similar requirement will take power in 2025 at the latest [2].
There is no choice any more if you cater to either markets: either you're compliant or you can and will get fined to oblivion.
[1] https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-07/blind-pers...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Accessibility_Act
Not any more. In the US this hasn't been the case for years since 2019 [1], and in Europe a similar requirement will take power in 2025 at the latest [2].
There is no choice any more if you cater to either markets: either you're compliant or you can and will get fined to oblivion.
[1] https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-07/blind-pers...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Accessibility_Act
That first link doesn't say what you claim it does.
SCOTUS rejected hearing the case and has let the 9th circuit decision stand for now. That means the ruling ONLY applies in areas of the US that fall under the 9th circuit. Further, if SCOTUS chooses to hear the case in the future, they may well overturn the 9th circuit decision.
As they point out in that article, this decision would instantly make hundreds of thousands of business non-compliant and open them up to being destroyed by accessibility lawsuits.
A megacorp will just do the work and write off the expenses.
Small businesses are different. Faced with tens of thousands in expenses, they have two options. The first is that they eliminate their website entirely. This hurts them and almost all of their customers (including disabled people who might have relied on the partially accessible features). The second is to lay off employees to pay for the work. Neither option is very good.
SCOTUS rejected hearing the case and has let the 9th circuit decision stand for now. That means the ruling ONLY applies in areas of the US that fall under the 9th circuit. Further, if SCOTUS chooses to hear the case in the future, they may well overturn the 9th circuit decision.
As they point out in that article, this decision would instantly make hundreds of thousands of business non-compliant and open them up to being destroyed by accessibility lawsuits.
A megacorp will just do the work and write off the expenses.
Small businesses are different. Faced with tens of thousands in expenses, they have two options. The first is that they eliminate their website entirely. This hurts them and almost all of their customers (including disabled people who might have relied on the partially accessible features). The second is to lay off employees to pay for the work. Neither option is very good.
> That means the ruling ONLY applies in areas of the US that fall under the 9th circuit.
Ah, thanks. I'm German, I thought federal court orders were binding for the whole country.
> Small businesses are different.
Actually small businesses are exempt. The EU EEA has a threshold of 10 employees/2 million euros balance, and the US ADA - at least from a quick Google - of 15 employees [1]. If you're hitting either of these thresholds, you're large enough to afford a once-off expense and hell, you should have a couple tens of thousands of dollars in reserve anyway simply because your employees rely on you being able to make payroll even if disaster strikes - even at 10 employees and 3000 dollars per employee in total cost, that's 30k in payroll a month total so you should have 60k in reserve anyway.
For those who don't, well, please don't operate in a way that externalizes costs and risks onto others - no matter if it's disabled people, your employees or your customers.
> Faced with tens of thousands in expenses, they have two options.
A lot of small businesses don't do their own website, they use social media or SaaS providers - Wix, Wordpress, Jimdo, or (for restaurants) Just Eat and their competitors. For them, the SaaS provider does the heavy lifting, and besides: these sites usually don't have much content anyway.
[1] https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/ada-primer-small-business...
Ah, thanks. I'm German, I thought federal court orders were binding for the whole country.
> Small businesses are different.
Actually small businesses are exempt. The EU EEA has a threshold of 10 employees/2 million euros balance, and the US ADA - at least from a quick Google - of 15 employees [1]. If you're hitting either of these thresholds, you're large enough to afford a once-off expense and hell, you should have a couple tens of thousands of dollars in reserve anyway simply because your employees rely on you being able to make payroll even if disaster strikes - even at 10 employees and 3000 dollars per employee in total cost, that's 30k in payroll a month total so you should have 60k in reserve anyway.
For those who don't, well, please don't operate in a way that externalizes costs and risks onto others - no matter if it's disabled people, your employees or your customers.
> Faced with tens of thousands in expenses, they have two options.
A lot of small businesses don't do their own website, they use social media or SaaS providers - Wix, Wordpress, Jimdo, or (for restaurants) Just Eat and their competitors. For them, the SaaS provider does the heavy lifting, and besides: these sites usually don't have much content anyway.
[1] https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/ada-primer-small-business...
Accessibility is so much more than screen readers.
There's also cases where you're legally required to support them
E.g. ADA (Americans with disabilities act) website compliance which seems to be required when the employer has more than 15 employees
E.g. ADA (Americans with disabilities act) website compliance which seems to be required when the employer has more than 15 employees
My employer has more than that, and is not subject to it. I don't know exactly why, but I think has something to do with availability to public? Our users are employees of our customers.
You're right.
However, consider how much do you worsen the experience of the majority, and how much do you improve it for the minority? I think that should factor into this decision.
I think the article is mostly trying to make an effort to inform people of the options available to them, so that when you are creating estimates of the work required to support accessibility requirements, you're not overestimating out of sheer ignorance.
However, consider how much do you worsen the experience of the majority, and how much do you improve it for the minority? I think that should factor into this decision.
I think the article is mostly trying to make an effort to inform people of the options available to them, so that when you are creating estimates of the work required to support accessibility requirements, you're not overestimating out of sheer ignorance.
Unless the law calls for it. I believe that ADA in the US requires websites to be accessible.
Sure, you can complement every modal view with a non-modal version, but now you have 2x the views and users that are ambivalent about the duplication at best, confused and frustrated at worst.
Just make a good non-modal view, with whatever transition is needed for continuity to/from the parent view.
Just make a good non-modal view, with whatever transition is needed for continuity to/from the parent view.
I am one of those people whose user experience will drastically improve if modal windows are accepted for what they are - an anti-pattern at best and a dark pattern most of the time. I as a user make the decisions if I want a separate window or not, not the application developer.
As a principle, I don't read any website that has a modal window, especially a modal "subscribe to our newsletter".
As a principle, I don't read any website that has a modal window, especially a modal "subscribe to our newsletter".
Wrong use case. Think more like a web application where a modal comes up for more details and to edit details instead of going to a separate page and URL.
You are describing the cases I hate, because you then can't (easily) open those views in a separate window while keeping the current view for reference.
It's similarly annoying as paging controls that don't support "open in new window" and/or don't work with the browser history.
It's similarly annoying as paging controls that don't support "open in new window" and/or don't work with the browser history.
It’s the same use case. The browser is an agent of the user, not of the website developer.
It's not the wrong use case. I need you guys developing apps to listen:
- I *want* more details on a separate, linkable URL.
- I *want* it to open in either the same window, or a separate window if I ctrl+click it.
"Subscribe to newsletter" use case is just the worst use case.
- I *want* more details on a separate, linkable URL.
- I *want* it to open in either the same window, or a separate window if I ctrl+click it.
"Subscribe to newsletter" use case is just the worst use case.
Us "developing apps" aren't the ones designing modals - there are teams doing that instead and we implement what they suggest. It turns out that when they ask users of the software I build, at least, that this isn't a common complaint.
The problem that designers are often trying to solve is that there is not enough information that there is a good way to put it on its own page - it's too small for its own page but too large for the table that we'd rather just add another column to.
We have an export button so you can get all the details in excel or LibreOffice or your tool of choice, though. And in a better world, we'd be writing proper desktop apps instead of web applications so that we aren't making stupid compromises like this, but here we are.
The problem that designers are often trying to solve is that there is not enough information that there is a good way to put it on its own page - it's too small for its own page but too large for the table that we'd rather just add another column to.
We have an export button so you can get all the details in excel or LibreOffice or your tool of choice, though. And in a better world, we'd be writing proper desktop apps instead of web applications so that we aren't making stupid compromises like this, but here we are.
You mean like a web application where the modal edit window blocks the information on the original page that I would want to refer to, so I have to close the window, copy it in to a text editor, and bring back the modal window?
Sounds wonderful.
Sounds wonderful.
> This will worsen the UX more often than not. Guaranteed.
Experience shows that this is not the case, provided you keep load times as lowest as possible.
In business apps, this has the additional advantage of allowing users to share information among themselves by simply sharing URLs.
Experience shows that this is not the case, provided you keep load times as lowest as possible.
In business apps, this has the additional advantage of allowing users to share information among themselves by simply sharing URLs.
You can make modals linkable too.
You can. But then there are the issues. The article even reports some of them.
On large applications, this can be become a nightmare to maintain.
On large applications, this can be become a nightmare to maintain.
I have been developing a single page application for several months in SvelteKit, which emphasizes server side rendering and progressive enhancement. I spent a lot of time making things work without JS when it would have been easier not to.
Modals were the spot where I threw in the towel on perfect progressive enhancement. Like yes, I could make this work without JavaScript. But I'm not willing to take the likely weeks designing and building a robust solution for it which would definitely have to involve routing.
I like OP's post, because this is a decision I am wrestling with. Right now I only use modals for things like confirmation windows or showing a larger version of a photo when you click a thumbnail. Kind of like the use cases they outline. Ephemeral. But I am about to start implementing a payment flow that is more complex than just "enter your card number and hit enter", and as nice as I think it would be to have it in a modal, but having it as its own page/flow is so much easier in so many different ways, I think this tipped me over the edge.
Modals were the spot where I threw in the towel on perfect progressive enhancement. Like yes, I could make this work without JavaScript. But I'm not willing to take the likely weeks designing and building a robust solution for it which would definitely have to involve routing.
I like OP's post, because this is a decision I am wrestling with. Right now I only use modals for things like confirmation windows or showing a larger version of a photo when you click a thumbnail. Kind of like the use cases they outline. Ephemeral. But I am about to start implementing a payment flow that is more complex than just "enter your card number and hit enter", and as nice as I think it would be to have it in a modal, but having it as its own page/flow is so much easier in so many different ways, I think this tipped me over the edge.
What issues? It really seems like subjective experiences being pushed as best practice.
It's absolutely possible to build maintainable, accessible, linkable, fast modals.
I have no clue why someone would say those things are impossible or impossibly difficult to achieve.
It's absolutely possible to build maintainable, accessible, linkable, fast modals.
I have no clue why someone would say those things are impossible or impossibly difficult to achieve.
> What issues?
Article mentions some.
And please notice that we are not advocating for the complete elimination of modals; rather, to avoid their use in specific situations.
Article mentions some.
And please notice that we are not advocating for the complete elimination of modals; rather, to avoid their use in specific situations.
How about the fact that modal windows suck? There’s so many web apps that throw up a modal window—for e.g. editing an item—that prevent you from seeing anything else in the app or editing two things at once (because nobody would ever need that).
This will worsen the UX more often than not. Guaranteed.
You must use "telemetry" instead of actually talking to your users.
My company requires me to talk to the people who use the web sites I build. (I has a session just yesterday.) They hate modal windows. They even still refer to them as "pop-ups."
You must use "telemetry" instead of actually talking to your users.
My company requires me to talk to the people who use the web sites I build. (I has a session just yesterday.) They hate modal windows. They even still refer to them as "pop-ups."
You can't generalise like this. We use modals, drawers and new tabs where appropriate.
There's two words you must learn when talking about UI design - "It Depends".
The one general rule I will state that guides towards using a modal is if the user needs to stay within the context of the originating page and they must return to that page as part of the workflow that launched the modal. But there's also edge cases to this.
source: UXer with 25 years experience in both desktop and webapp.
There's two words you must learn when talking about UI design - "It Depends".
The one general rule I will state that guides towards using a modal is if the user needs to stay within the context of the originating page and they must return to that page as part of the workflow that launched the modal. But there's also edge cases to this.
source: UXer with 25 years experience in both desktop and webapp.
> You can't generalise like this.
I have never met that other kind of user.
Even when it's a small detail completely embedded on the context of the page, people get annoyed by modals. AFAIK, that happens on the desktop too (with the single exception of things like app settings).
I do believe in pushing a more usable design despite users not liking it a few times. But those times have to be few, and thus, you have to get a lot of extra usability out of it. Modal details isn't such an important use case, so I do recommend to avoid unless you gather your own evidence (and any UI recommendation can be ignored if you gather your own evidence), even if they are better.
I do recommend a default to avoid almost all of the use-cases people are posting for modals:
- click to enlarge is much better done inline;
- alerts are that one thing where modals became a caricature, modal alerts are absolutely shit;
- confirmation prompts should be avoided as much as you can (yeah, if you can't, make a modal);
- the 2 minutes rule from the OP, nope, if it can't be done inline, you can put it in another page.
I have never met that other kind of user.
Even when it's a small detail completely embedded on the context of the page, people get annoyed by modals. AFAIK, that happens on the desktop too (with the single exception of things like app settings).
I do believe in pushing a more usable design despite users not liking it a few times. But those times have to be few, and thus, you have to get a lot of extra usability out of it. Modal details isn't such an important use case, so I do recommend to avoid unless you gather your own evidence (and any UI recommendation can be ignored if you gather your own evidence), even if they are better.
I do recommend a default to avoid almost all of the use-cases people are posting for modals:
- click to enlarge is much better done inline;
- alerts are that one thing where modals became a caricature, modal alerts are absolutely shit;
- confirmation prompts should be avoided as much as you can (yeah, if you can't, make a modal);
- the 2 minutes rule from the OP, nope, if it can't be done inline, you can put it in another page.
People who say "it depends", without also explaining what it depends on, are not worth listening to. Someone who advocates for a silver bullet solution to a problem is more helpful than someone who won't make any recommendation at all, because "it all depends".
You can say it depends, if the entire point you are making is just that it depends!
It's unrealistic to outline all the different thought processes that would go into such a decisionn in a short comment on HN. And you could not hope to cover all the different things it depends on.
It's unrealistic to outline all the different thought processes that would go into such a decisionn in a short comment on HN. And you could not hope to cover all the different things it depends on.
Neither of these statements are true (and the latter can be far more devastating as those types love to rush through changes without careful consideration), but you're free to repeat them as many times as you'd like in hopes they become true.
> You must use "telemetry" instead of actually talking to your users.
I mean, there are several people in this thread who like modals as users. I’m another one of those. I find modals very useful, as long as you don’t do them in a crappy way. You shouldn’t insult people just because your experience was different.
I mean, there are several people in this thread who like modals as users. I’m another one of those. I find modals very useful, as long as you don’t do them in a crappy way. You shouldn’t insult people just because your experience was different.
They ARE pop-ups mostly. Just ones that are harder to block as compared to the 1990s pop-ups.
Yep: devs call them "modals" while users call them "pop-ups" but they're the same thing.
Now, native browser modals (think Javascript's alert()) don't use the same underlying technology as HTML/CSS modals (think Bootstrap's modal component), but at the end of the day they're both modals/pop-ups.
Now, native browser modals (think Javascript's alert()) don't use the same underlying technology as HTML/CSS modals (think Bootstrap's modal component), but at the end of the day they're both modals/pop-ups.
YMMV. If you are building a single page app for expert users in a domain, and editing an entity changes the visual context by going to a different page, that doesn't go down well in my experience. We tried it once, with multiple iterations, and in the end had to roll it back to modals because the complaints were endless.
I freakin love it when it goes to a different page with its own URL. Stakeholders/customers can just create a spreadsheet directly to the relevant link if they have a lot of things they are trying to track outside the software (think inventory management stuff).
[deleted]
I'd love to hear some unexpected insights you got from asking users.
I'd love to hear some unexpected insights you got from asking users.
There are too many to list here. Things that the sort of people who read HN would never imagine.
One is that a surprising number of users don't know to press the "Search" button after they enter text into a search field. They will just sit there for a bit and when nothing happens, they assume it's broken.
I haven't followed up on this yet, but I suspect it's because people have gotten so used to autocomplete.
There are too many to list here. Things that the sort of people who read HN would never imagine.
One is that a surprising number of users don't know to press the "Search" button after they enter text into a search field. They will just sit there for a bit and when nothing happens, they assume it's broken.
I haven't followed up on this yet, but I suspect it's because people have gotten so used to autocomplete.
Your company requires you to talk to users, yet it seems you still haven’t gotten the memo that you shouldn’t make blanket assumptions without talking to people about actual use cases. “Users hate modal windows” is about as meaningless as “users hate open in new tab” without context.
You pontificate, but didn't get the memo about not making things up.
I never made any blanket assumptions and never wrote "Users hate modal windows."
Reading is fundamental.
I never made any blanket assumptions and never wrote "Users hate modal windows."
Reading is fundamental.
oefrha(1)
I think unfortunately in the last decade modal windows have been abused.
I however agree with you, and I don't like the website simply dismissing the idea because it's been over-used and abused all over the place.
Modals have a place in UX.
I however agree with you, and I don't like the website simply dismissing the idea because it's been over-used and abused all over the place.
Modals have a place in UX.
> All complaints on the page are ultimately grievances against poorly thought-through implementations and as such they are rooted in the wrong thing. It's trivial to complement every modal window with a standalone version, in which case it's possible to bookmark them, middle-click on the links and what have you.
It is what is wrong with web-designers. They throw away existing browser features, like a scrollbar, and develop their own half-baked replacements, which work differently, they are probably incomplete realisation, and then I'm scratching my head trying to imagine a reason for all this work done by a developer: why to spend additional development time to make my life worse?
It could be a UX improvement, if it was not a modal window but a modeless one: it can help to compare details of different products by placing their windows side-by-side. Or I can right-click on a link and open it in a new window. But a modal window is a nightmare: I can move tabs into a separate browser window easily and to place them side-by-side. It is pain to do it with modal windows. One needs to clone tab and then to open modals.
It is what is wrong with web-designers. They throw away existing browser features, like a scrollbar, and develop their own half-baked replacements, which work differently, they are probably incomplete realisation, and then I'm scratching my head trying to imagine a reason for all this work done by a developer: why to spend additional development time to make my life worse?
It could be a UX improvement, if it was not a modal window but a modeless one: it can help to compare details of different products by placing their windows side-by-side. Or I can right-click on a link and open it in a new window. But a modal window is a nightmare: I can move tabs into a separate browser window easily and to place them side-by-side. It is pain to do it with modal windows. One needs to clone tab and then to open modals.
Every Modal window has me close it so I can access and refer to content on the page that it's blocking.
There's one kind of modality needed for computers, and it's the power switch.
There's one kind of modality needed for computers, and it's the power switch.
If you are working with an single page app, you can open a modal window and change the href without navigation by calling `history.pushstate`.
``` history.pushState({}, "", "/new-url"); ```
Moreover, modals serve one very important UI purpose in that they keep the user's mind in a context.
``` history.pushState({}, "", "/new-url"); ```
Moreover, modals serve one very important UI purpose in that they keep the user's mind in a context.
Modals can be a life saver, if you do server side rendered pages, because navigating back is probably slower than opening/closing a popover via Javascript. You may also lose some state on the previous view on navigating back, you may end up at another scrolling position (I know this can be prevented).
I prefer master-detail views. Like an Email client, where you select a message in a list and then see the body of the email. For smartphone sized screens this should switch to a detail page with a back button. Like the Mail app on iPhone/iPad.
Master-detail can be tough on server side rendered pages though. And you really need a good page structure, because you show a lot of data on one page and it can look cluttered quickly.
I prefer master-detail views. Like an Email client, where you select a message in a list and then see the body of the email. For smartphone sized screens this should switch to a detail page with a back button. Like the Mail app on iPhone/iPad.
Master-detail can be tough on server side rendered pages though. And you really need a good page structure, because you show a lot of data on one page and it can look cluttered quickly.
Navigating back used to be instant before pages became so bloated that browsers had to evict them from ram so soon.
Funnily enough, I never complained about how Jira solves this (it's clear that linking to the modal will work, because the URL updates)
Respectfully, I think your first sentence could use editing. It isn't clear if you're agreeing with the author's statement (i.e. Don't use modals because it will result in worse UX), or contradicting the statement (i.e. Don't use a new page because it will result in worse UX)
Inclined to disagree. I once worked on a product that went all-in on modals for detail-views, and we ran into all of the problems mentioned in the article. It produced a constant stream of tickets, and at the end of the day the UX was indeed terrible.
As a UX designer, I wholeheartedly disagree.
> Modal windows can't be bookmarked or shared as links
Why would the user want to bookmark or share a "modal". I believe the author is confusing a modal with a details page (a customer's details page in a CRM for example) on that we can agree that that kind of content is best shown on a separate page. A modal serves a specific function within a web page, be it a website or a web app. Its main function is to allow the user to perform certain tasks within a page, and those tasks will immediately reflect on the underlying page upon submission (or validation/confirmation ..etc). So I fail to understand why the author thinks a user would want to bookmark that modal.
> Modal windows can't be opened in a new tab
Nor should they. Modals, as mentioned above, are one layer above an underlying page, and they either show complimentary information related to an element within that page, or they allow to user to performa task. So they should inherently be accessible within the same tab, not a new one.
> Modal windows make the Back button confusing
Aside from the Close/Abort button inside the modal, a lot of interaction designers and front-end developers are now developing the modals in a way they would close if you press the back button of your browser. No confusion there in my opinion.
> Modal windows are hard to get right[...]if you need to support older browsers, good luck.
Can't find the date this article was published but I assume it's old because almost all new browsers support at least <dialog> element [1]
Modals are a double edged sword, like any UI component or UX pattern really.
[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/di...
Further reading: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/modal-nonmodal-dialog/
> Modal windows can't be bookmarked or shared as links
Why would the user want to bookmark or share a "modal". I believe the author is confusing a modal with a details page (a customer's details page in a CRM for example) on that we can agree that that kind of content is best shown on a separate page. A modal serves a specific function within a web page, be it a website or a web app. Its main function is to allow the user to perform certain tasks within a page, and those tasks will immediately reflect on the underlying page upon submission (or validation/confirmation ..etc). So I fail to understand why the author thinks a user would want to bookmark that modal.
> Modal windows can't be opened in a new tab
Nor should they. Modals, as mentioned above, are one layer above an underlying page, and they either show complimentary information related to an element within that page, or they allow to user to performa task. So they should inherently be accessible within the same tab, not a new one.
> Modal windows make the Back button confusing
Aside from the Close/Abort button inside the modal, a lot of interaction designers and front-end developers are now developing the modals in a way they would close if you press the back button of your browser. No confusion there in my opinion.
> Modal windows are hard to get right[...]if you need to support older browsers, good luck.
Can't find the date this article was published but I assume it's old because almost all new browsers support at least <dialog> element [1]
Modals are a double edged sword, like any UI component or UX pattern really.
[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/di...
Further reading: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/modal-nonmodal-dialog/
> I believe the author is confusing a modal with a details page
It sounds like you agree with the article, at least according to my reading.
The author states that you should not use a modal for something “bookmarkable”, such as a details page.
They also state that a modal is suitable for performing an action that does not warrant a “resource URL”, such as a “create resource” form.
It sounds like you agree with the article, at least according to my reading.
The author states that you should not use a modal for something “bookmarkable”, such as a details page.
They also state that a modal is suitable for performing an action that does not warrant a “resource URL”, such as a “create resource” form.
The author's thesis is "you don't need a modal window", which the post you responded to fundamentally disagrees with.
>Why would the user want to bookmark or share a "modal"
I think you and the author are making the same argument. I'm sure you've encountered one of those everything-is-a-modal apps and thought "I sure wish I could link to this part of the app but I can't." Then you'd wish you could bookmark the modal.
I use one every day. An example: to edit a user's account information, I go to the accounts interface, open the filters modal dialog and supply the criteria, and them I'm presented with a list of matches. I select one, and it opens the account information in modal dialog. None of those intermediate states are addressable in any way, so it's a real chore to ever access any resource, and I certainly can't share a link with someone else. This is a truly bad experience directly because of its abuse of modal dialogs.
I think you and the author are making the same argument. I'm sure you've encountered one of those everything-is-a-modal apps and thought "I sure wish I could link to this part of the app but I can't." Then you'd wish you could bookmark the modal.
I use one every day. An example: to edit a user's account information, I go to the accounts interface, open the filters modal dialog and supply the criteria, and them I'm presented with a list of matches. I select one, and it opens the account information in modal dialog. None of those intermediate states are addressable in any way, so it's a real chore to ever access any resource, and I certainly can't share a link with someone else. This is a truly bad experience directly because of its abuse of modal dialogs.
> Why would the user want to bookmark or share a "modal"
Because the modal contains specific information they want to come back to, or share with others.
> I believe the author is confusing a modal with a details page
The problem against which the author is invecting is precisely the use of modals where details pages would be appropriate.
Because the modal contains specific information they want to come back to, or share with others.
> I believe the author is confusing a modal with a details page
The problem against which the author is invecting is precisely the use of modals where details pages would be appropriate.
Basically I get the impression that the author has a pet peeve of modal dialogs being abused as detail screens, that is, whoever did the UX was doing a bad job. I haven't seen a modal dialog used to show details in a long time, so I guess I'm sorry the author had to experience it.
> Modal windows can't be opened in a new tab
> Nor should they
How about you stop making decisions for me. I very often want to open settings and other various dialogues in a new tab or as a saved bookmark. This is especially useful in customer support (which is a concept a lot of startups are unfamiliar with, to be fair). You are unaware of every use case, so choose standard browser behavior when possible.
> Nor should they
How about you stop making decisions for me. I very often want to open settings and other various dialogues in a new tab or as a saved bookmark. This is especially useful in customer support (which is a concept a lot of startups are unfamiliar with, to be fair). You are unaware of every use case, so choose standard browser behavior when possible.
> a lot of interaction designers and front-end developers are now developing the modals in a way they would close if you press the back button of your browser. No confusion there in my opinion.
I'm not sure how this justifies your opinion. The fact that "a lot" of people are following a new design paradigm indicates, to me at least, that the pattern is inherently confusing. As a user, do I know what paradigm was used by the design and engineering team? If not, I'm going to be unsure about the effect of clicking "back"
I'm not sure how this justifies your opinion. The fact that "a lot" of people are following a new design paradigm indicates, to me at least, that the pattern is inherently confusing. As a user, do I know what paradigm was used by the design and engineering team? If not, I'm going to be unsure about the effect of clicking "back"
For bookmarking or opening in a new tab you can do that reasonably easily now anyway: https://nextjs.org/docs/app/building-your-application/routin...
I used to feel this way and would make everything linkable, but then I realized that modals are really good at preventing users from getting lost by adding context instead of swapping context.
For example, a user may want to edit a few items items in a list Rather than forcing the user to a new page to do each edit, you can pop up a modal and edit in place. With new pages, the user loses the context of the original list. The page swapping is very disruptive.
For example, a user may want to edit a few items items in a list Rather than forcing the user to a new page to do each edit, you can pop up a modal and edit in place. With new pages, the user loses the context of the original list. The page swapping is very disruptive.
There are normally better approaches to a modal popup.
In this case I'd consider expanding the item on the page when preforming an edit. That way it's clear to the user they're on the same page so won't be tempted to click back and you won't need to worry about confusing keyboard / screen reader users.
Alternatively if you absolutely need to use a modal consider a slide out instead. Slide outs tend to look less like new pages and reduce the likelihood of a user clicking back to "go back" to whatever they were previously looking at. With a slide out the original content is still in view, but now you have some extra options to the side. You still have all the accessibility issues of course, but the UX is slightly better most of the time.
In this case I'd consider expanding the item on the page when preforming an edit. That way it's clear to the user they're on the same page so won't be tempted to click back and you won't need to worry about confusing keyboard / screen reader users.
Alternatively if you absolutely need to use a modal consider a slide out instead. Slide outs tend to look less like new pages and reduce the likelihood of a user clicking back to "go back" to whatever they were previously looking at. With a slide out the original content is still in view, but now you have some extra options to the side. You still have all the accessibility issues of course, but the UX is slightly better most of the time.
I reached the same conclusion: modals are excellent at helping people quickly dive into multiple items on the list while keeping their main mental context in the listing view. I call it "Hummingbird mode" - zoom in, zoom out, jump around.
For example, you are running a project review meeting and want to quickly jump between tickets on the kanban board. Your main business context is the entire board (you might have filters/sorting), and you keep a mental record of where interesting tickets are placed on the screen. However, during the group discussion, you need to quickly jump into an individual ticket to reassign it or scan through comments for 5 seconds. In this case, using a modal to show ticket details is preferred to redirecting to a separate 'details' page because it does not scramble the user's context and their mental model about what's on the screen. Of course, the UI still should support cmd+click to open a full page dedicated to that ticket, but that's a 10% use-case.
For example, you are running a project review meeting and want to quickly jump between tickets on the kanban board. Your main business context is the entire board (you might have filters/sorting), and you keep a mental record of where interesting tickets are placed on the screen. However, during the group discussion, you need to quickly jump into an individual ticket to reassign it or scan through comments for 5 seconds. In this case, using a modal to show ticket details is preferred to redirecting to a separate 'details' page because it does not scramble the user's context and their mental model about what's on the screen. Of course, the UI still should support cmd+click to open a full page dedicated to that ticket, but that's a 10% use-case.
I concur. I think this page[1] illustrates it quite well.
[1]: https://gwern.net/index
[1]: https://gwern.net/index
That's actually a super weird implementation. I can hover over a link and open a modal preview, and then hover over a link in that modal to open another modal, ad infinitum. I ended up with 20 modals covering the page, and then moved my mouse a little too much and they all disappeared at once.
Also, if you click on something in the modal, you end up getting redirected to a new page anyways, which kind of supports the anti-modal argument.
OTOH, I like Wikipedia's hover previews just fine, so sometimes they're OK.
Also, if you click on something in the modal, you end up getting redirected to a new page anyways, which kind of supports the anti-modal argument.
OTOH, I like Wikipedia's hover previews just fine, so sometimes they're OK.
> Modal windows are hard to get right. The "final boss of accessibility"
Lmao, I was making this point at work yesterday. It's really difficult to justify using a modal if you care about accessibility. It's not that it's impossible to do correctly, but even when it's done "correctly" it can still be confusing for users navigating with keyboards / screen readers. So modals are almost always either too much effort to do right, or just not the best approach.
Another thing I'd add to this list is that there are some people who browse without JS enabled. I know it's unpopular to care about those folks these days, but it is another reason to avoid modals where possible.
Lmao, I was making this point at work yesterday. It's really difficult to justify using a modal if you care about accessibility. It's not that it's impossible to do correctly, but even when it's done "correctly" it can still be confusing for users navigating with keyboards / screen readers. So modals are almost always either too much effort to do right, or just not the best approach.
Another thing I'd add to this list is that there are some people who browse without JS enabled. I know it's unpopular to care about those folks these days, but it is another reason to avoid modals where possible.
Modals and accessibility was a completely solved problem in 1990s desktop UIs. If anything modals were considered the “easy mode” of UI design. (You can see this in applications like Photoshop that retain some of the original early ‘90s modal-centric design.)
It’s crazy how much the web platform’s lack of UI expressivity has set us back. Everything is constantly getting desperately reinvented out of a handful of text markup tags cobbled together by scripts, but it doesn’t solve any of the underlying issues.
It’s crazy how much the web platform’s lack of UI expressivity has set us back. Everything is constantly getting desperately reinvented out of a handful of text markup tags cobbled together by scripts, but it doesn’t solve any of the underlying issues.
Are you thinking of SDI?
They really aren't too much effort to get right, not anymore. Dialog element exists and by default handles most considerations when it comes to accessibility.
Also, you're going to have to create modals eventually, alerts are needed in most applications so you might as well create a thorough component.
Avoiding modals because of those who browse with JS disabled doesn't make much sense. Especially when they can temporarily enable on your site, as disabling JS for security reasons would mean they trust your site if they're still using it enough to reach a modal. You can still create fallbacks, but they'll be ugly considering most modals are for nested form changes or alerts.
Also, you're going to have to create modals eventually, alerts are needed in most applications so you might as well create a thorough component.
Avoiding modals because of those who browse with JS disabled doesn't make much sense. Especially when they can temporarily enable on your site, as disabling JS for security reasons would mean they trust your site if they're still using it enough to reach a modal. You can still create fallbacks, but they'll be ugly considering most modals are for nested form changes or alerts.
The dialog HTML element[0] obviates the JS point but I don’t think it’s available in all browsers. I think there are still many considerations with this approach but many things also work out of the box.
[0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/di...
[0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/di...
It's been widely available since 2022, when Firefox and Safari landed support https://caniuse.com/dialog
I would like to care about JS-disablers, but it is a disproportionally large amount of work for something a few people are choosing to do.
I try to give it a best effort, but won’t e.g. rebuild a menu as an HTML checkbox just because some folks are hardliners about running Javascript.
I try to give it a best effort, but won’t e.g. rebuild a menu as an HTML checkbox just because some folks are hardliners about running Javascript.
"Everyone has JS, right?"
https://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/everyonehasjs.html
https://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/everyonehasjs.html
Only one part of this, which we're already talking about, is relevant here.
Above all, please respect that a middle mouse button is supposed to open a link in a new tab.
Note, I've been using trackpads exclusively instead of mouse since 12 years now, before that, I had a mouse with extra buttons that I used a lot, including the open in new tab middle click.
Not before reading your comment I had realized I never missed those extra buttons, or at least remembering missing them.
And I realize that while my implementation takes care of modifiers to open links in new tabs on my web apps, I always overlooked middle button.
The real problem though is that the web is very broken for building apps, and that the DOM API is missing a way to negociate the url changes on default clicked link behavior instead of the current «block event and update url» mechanism.
Not before reading your comment I had realized I never missed those extra buttons, or at least remembering missing them.
And I realize that while my implementation takes care of modifiers to open links in new tabs on my web apps, I always overlooked middle button.
The real problem though is that the web is very broken for building apps, and that the DOM API is missing a way to negociate the url changes on default clicked link behavior instead of the current «block event and update url» mechanism.
And the only way to achieve this is by having the mouse interact with an actual link element (HTML <a>, HTML <area> or SVG <a>) with a meaningful href.
A few times I’ve encountered sites trying to be clever and detect Ctrl+click or middle-click and use window.open(), but this doesn’t behave natively: natively, middle-click or Ctrl+click probably open in a background tab, but open() opens a foreground tab, which will always be disruptive for people that use this stuff much, and sometimes infuriating.
This isn’t the only reason for having real links; there are also things like status bar text on hover, and context menu on right click or long press, which may include options like Open Link in New Private Window that cannot be emulated in any way.
If you want to intercepting link click events, you must check if the click is modified in some way like this:
A few times I’ve encountered sites trying to be clever and detect Ctrl+click or middle-click and use window.open(), but this doesn’t behave natively: natively, middle-click or Ctrl+click probably open in a background tab, but open() opens a foreground tab, which will always be disruptive for people that use this stuff much, and sometimes infuriating.
This isn’t the only reason for having real links; there are also things like status bar text on hover, and context menu on right click or long press, which may include options like Open Link in New Private Window that cannot be emulated in any way.
If you want to intercepting link click events, you must check if the click is modified in some way like this:
if (event.button || event.altKey || event.ctrlKey || event.metaKey || event.shiftKey) return;
Maybe this should be supported by browsers though. The main place where I hate not having modals is when filling out forms and checking for a slightly expanded explanation about what is expected to be filled into a field. What would be the best behavior for those is if a click showed something inline and middle click (or right click -> open in new tab) opened a new page with the correct tab focus behavior.
This is what can be accomplished by the is-click-modified code I listed. If the click is modified, let the event go through and the browser do whatever with it, but if it’s not modified, call event.preventDefault() to block navigation, then do what you want with it.
Oh, I always use ctrl click. Ditto.
Too often, links are just buttons that navigate you to the url when you click on it. It just ignores modifiers.
It makes me furious
It makes me furious
Yeah as a user I'm annoyed how often modifiers are circumvented. As a developer I'm annoyed at how often I end up in a situation where I have to reinvent 'click to follow a link' and where it's really tedious to also reimplement modifiers.
JavaScript:void(0)
I have reached this resolution: <a href="javascript:void(0)"> is never acceptable. If you have no reasonable value for an href, then you shouldn’t use an <a href> element, but probably a <button>.
As for <a href="#">, it’s in the same boat, with the sole exception of jumping to the top of the page.
As for <a href="#">, it’s in the same boat, with the sole exception of jumping to the top of the page.
It's insane that this has been broken in Twitter for so many years (when trying to open a tweet).
I remember these days. Unfortunately I’ve not had a middle mouse button for a lot of years
When I was on a mac, CMD + Click worked fine.
I was thinking this today as I was using JIRA. I would live JIRA to be a boring and more RESTful web app.
I hit a bug where if I closed the popup (for a ticket on a board) it just reopened! And some ticket links don’t work. All these bugs and complexity for what?
Maybe the browsers should have a built in “open link as popup” for the rare times you want that. And the sites just make it a new page always.
I hit a bug where if I closed the popup (for a ticket on a board) it just reopened! And some ticket links don’t work. All these bugs and complexity for what?
Maybe the browsers should have a built in “open link as popup” for the rare times you want that. And the sites just make it a new page always.
Is it annoying that issues open in a modal by default, I then need to click the issue name again to make it open in its own window.
Counterpoint: changing a jira Issue into a Bug takes me into three intermediate pages of changing details, most of which are empty because they're overengineered for a board configuration that only the highest-caste jira priests would ever actually use. And then after the final Next button it takes me back to page that isn't where I even started.
Just pop up a modal and reload the Issue/Bug state when done.
Just pop up a modal and reload the Issue/Bug state when done.
I think Jira performance already seems to be dominated by roundtrips to the servers. Making it more like what you describe may make it even worse.
Yeah they need to sort their app performance out.
That said the modal load is just as slow.
That said the modal load is just as slow.
Actually Jira has multiple examples of "new page over modal" and it's the worst UX in Jira.
If you try to perform bulk edits, it'll bring you to a brand new page with all the items you want to modify, and ask you to click some things ("what kind of X should I do to these tickets"). You click stuff and hit Submit, and it goes to yet another new page with all the tickets and asks you to select more things. Then you click Submit, and it brings you to yet another new page where you click another set of things, and hit Submit. 3 entirely new page loads, and then you go back to the original page.
You can't hyperlink to any of these pages because they're part of a bulk edit applying to many items in intermediate states. Each page load takes at least 5 seconds. You can't see any of the context of where you were before, and when you go finally go back, you lose some of what you were doing/displaying before.
A modal would be much faster because the entire page wouldn't need to reload 3 times, you already can't bookmark specific sections in the new pages, and if you wanted to cancel the operation you could get back to the original page much faster (technically you're already on it), with the original context of the original page still intact.
If you try to perform bulk edits, it'll bring you to a brand new page with all the items you want to modify, and ask you to click some things ("what kind of X should I do to these tickets"). You click stuff and hit Submit, and it goes to yet another new page with all the tickets and asks you to select more things. Then you click Submit, and it brings you to yet another new page where you click another set of things, and hit Submit. 3 entirely new page loads, and then you go back to the original page.
You can't hyperlink to any of these pages because they're part of a bulk edit applying to many items in intermediate states. Each page load takes at least 5 seconds. You can't see any of the context of where you were before, and when you go finally go back, you lose some of what you were doing/displaying before.
A modal would be much faster because the entire page wouldn't need to reload 3 times, you already can't bookmark specific sections in the new pages, and if you wanted to cancel the operation you could get back to the original page much faster (technically you're already on it), with the original context of the original page still intact.
It seems like a lot of people don't really consider what it really means to be "modal," and when it comes up, I describe it something like this:
A modal is not, in itself, an overaly, window, frame, etc. Generally, it really shouldn't even be used as a noun. Modal describes the state of the interface. Most interfaces allow for multiple user interactions originating from the broader interface, i.e., it is multi-modal.
Sometimes, it is necessary to put the UI into a single-purpose state, so, in a single mode. This is required when two interactions can interfere with one another. When one interaction must not be interrupted by another, we must go modal.
The author seems to be chiefly complaining about unnecessary modality and the way that gives rise to clunky UIs that don't allow for things like linking. That's rooted in conflating on-screen, 3D elements like overlay dialog boxes with the concept of one of some interface being modal. An example of this would be an interface with a item list that, on item selection, conjures a modal overlay dialog box with the item details. In the base case, there is no dependency problem here, i.e., it's an entirely acceptable design to allow a user to view the details of two items at the same time, and therefor it doesn't call for a modal detail interface.
A modal is not, in itself, an overaly, window, frame, etc. Generally, it really shouldn't even be used as a noun. Modal describes the state of the interface. Most interfaces allow for multiple user interactions originating from the broader interface, i.e., it is multi-modal.
Sometimes, it is necessary to put the UI into a single-purpose state, so, in a single mode. This is required when two interactions can interfere with one another. When one interaction must not be interrupted by another, we must go modal.
The author seems to be chiefly complaining about unnecessary modality and the way that gives rise to clunky UIs that don't allow for things like linking. That's rooted in conflating on-screen, 3D elements like overlay dialog boxes with the concept of one of some interface being modal. An example of this would be an interface with a item list that, on item selection, conjures a modal overlay dialog box with the item details. In the base case, there is no dependency problem here, i.e., it's an entirely acceptable design to allow a user to view the details of two items at the same time, and therefor it doesn't call for a modal detail interface.
Modal is a common term for a UI element, as used in the site. I'm not saying you're wrong, per se, but I think you're missing the point, or perhaps missing context into modern UI design terminology
I'm willing to hear your argument. I could have done without you telling me that maybe I'm just out of the loop, because there's a point to be made here. But let me entertain the notion.
What is a modal?
What is a modal?
"A modal" is a specific term of art referring to set of UI elements that floats over other content, compels focus, and disallows interaction with UI elements behind it.
That's it. That's what it is. You're arguing with accepted terminology. "Well actually, do ships really have beams, isn't that a light thing?" doesn't really get far either.
That's it. That's what it is. You're arguing with accepted terminology. "Well actually, do ships really have beams, isn't that a light thing?" doesn't really get far either.
I'm not arguing with accepted terminology. I'm explaining the design intent and why it is called what it is called. The reason why the article exists is because there are so many cases where the element is inappropriate. But, as the author says, "Many UI toolkits offer modals out-of-the-box" so it's easy.
Now, about the terminology: why does the element have to float over other content? In-line modal interfaces are very common.
Now, about the terminology: why does the element have to float over other content? In-line modal interfaces are very common.
Not the person you’re replying to so hopefully I don’t derail, but over a decade of ui/ux and front end dev has taught me:
when people say ‘modal’ or ‘modal window’ or ‘modal pop up’ what they mean is: a new element in the same window, that overlays the current view, and must be dealt with before returning to the underlying page.
There are exceptions, but generally speaking that’s what ‘a modal’ is in the context of web ui.
when people say ‘modal’ or ‘modal window’ or ‘modal pop up’ what they mean is: a new element in the same window, that overlays the current view, and must be dealt with before returning to the underlying page.
There are exceptions, but generally speaking that’s what ‘a modal’ is in the context of web ui.
I know, and you're right that it has lost its definition. I'm making a case that that is what has driven the very common poor use of, as in the article here, modal windows. If implementers really, thoughtfully considered the problems and were well apprised of core concepts, it wouldn't happen as often.
Here's a common case for web application in-line modal forms, which are certainly not exceptional: airline ticket purchase flows.
Here's a common case for web application in-line modal forms, which are certainly not exceptional: airline ticket purchase flows.
Apologies for the tone, no offense was intended. In my world modals are as common as mud, I appreciate the reminder that we all have our bubbles.
I think Bootstrap is a reasonably standard Modal implementation. This site[1] contains an explanation of usage and demonstrations.
[1] https://getbootstrap.com/docs/5.0/components/modal/#live-dem...
I think Bootstrap is a reasonably standard Modal implementation. This site[1] contains an explanation of usage and demonstrations.
[1] https://getbootstrap.com/docs/5.0/components/modal/#live-dem...
The author and most people here are using "modal" with a very common popular meaning where the word is a short form of "modal window".
You are confusing it with the much less common but technically accurate meaning in UI. So you are just confused by terminology, and even though it would be better if people stick to unambiguous words, they are talking about something well defined enough that discussing terminology isn't useful.
You are confusing it with the much less common but technically accurate meaning in UI. So you are just confused by terminology, and even though it would be better if people stick to unambiguous words, they are talking about something well defined enough that discussing terminology isn't useful.
Right. And, in my opinion, we get exactly the bad UI described because it became common to conflate "modal" with "overlay." That's the way the UI kits implement it, and as the author states, it makes people reach for that because it's what's available.
This is one of those things that sounds good when presented like this. But it's just the opinion of some guy.
Run it through user testing and see how your users actually react to new windows being opened all the time. A lot of them are going to be confused, and not be able to make it back to your site. Modals are popular because they work
Run it through user testing and see how your users actually react to new windows being opened all the time. A lot of them are going to be confused, and not be able to make it back to your site. Modals are popular because they work
I think they’re saying you should use a new “page”, not a new window.
sure, that works if you can use a new page. but usually if i'm throwing up a modal, it's because i need to preserve some context on the existing page that might be lost by navigating away from it. so the choice is a new window, or a modal.
and at least in my use, the modal is always the better choice there. especially since the advent of <dialog>
and at least in my use, the modal is always the better choice there. especially since the advent of <dialog>
We use too many damn modals (2018) (modalzmodalzmodalz.com)
https://modalzmodalzmodalz.com/
MODALZMODALZMODALZ.COM
>We use too many damn modals. Let's just not. Help
>The bad news: Modals are the crutch of the inarticulate designer and developer. [...]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23645447
>bedatadriven on June 25, 2020 | next [–]
>I was just about to share this our designer, who is always talking me down from modals, when I reached the bottom and discovered that our designer is in fact the author.
>I seriously can't say enough for this message. Adrian helped us redesign our app 2 years ago, dispatching many many modals in the process, and delivering a huge increase in usability that our customers and users very much do care about.
https://modalzmodalzmodalz.com/
MODALZMODALZMODALZ.COM
>We use too many damn modals. Let's just not. Help
>The bad news: Modals are the crutch of the inarticulate designer and developer. [...]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23645447
>bedatadriven on June 25, 2020 | next [–]
>I was just about to share this our designer, who is always talking me down from modals, when I reached the bottom and discovered that our designer is in fact the author.
>I seriously can't say enough for this message. Adrian helped us redesign our app 2 years ago, dispatching many many modals in the process, and delivering a huge increase in usability that our customers and users very much do care about.
... for pages!
Modals are often fine for dialogs and fleeting interactions that happen within the context of the page you are on. Those often don't need their own URL. Don't need to persist after a page refresh, shouldn't be shared, confusingly pollute browser history and benefit from instant loading.
I mostly agree with the author in their examples. If it walks like a page and it talks like a page, it probably should be a page. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater otherwise.
Modals are often fine for dialogs and fleeting interactions that happen within the context of the page you are on. Those often don't need their own URL. Don't need to persist after a page refresh, shouldn't be shared, confusingly pollute browser history and benefit from instant loading.
I mostly agree with the author in their examples. If it walks like a page and it talks like a page, it probably should be a page. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater otherwise.
From TFA:
> Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity:
- Alerts
- Confirmation dialogs
- Forms for creating/updating entities
> Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity:
- Alerts
- Confirmation dialogs
- Forms for creating/updating entities
Modal Windows: If you put up a modal window, and it blocks content beneath it, and I can't at least move it out of the way, then it 100% is anti-user behavior. There is NO good reason for blocking the user from seeing content that might be relevant to the modal window. This is true for both websites and apps.
Compare Safari's Open File to Chrome's Open File. Chrome's Open File modal cannot be moved. Safari's can.
If you have a modal, and it blocks content, you have to be willing to say "I want to prevent my users from seeing this content while dealing with the modal. The content that is being blocked is not important, and it serves NO purpose."
Compare Safari's Open File to Chrome's Open File. Chrome's Open File modal cannot be moved. Safari's can.
If you have a modal, and it blocks content, you have to be willing to say "I want to prevent my users from seeing this content while dealing with the modal. The content that is being blocked is not important, and it serves NO purpose."
Preach.
You don't even necessarily need to place it in a new page, probably you can just expand it inline.
Most modals are just lazy.
"Where should I put this piece of UI/information?"
"Just place it above everything else."
With SPAs you don't even have an excuse that "a full-page reload will take longer" because you can change the whole page/layout instantly.
You don't even necessarily need to place it in a new page, probably you can just expand it inline.
Most modals are just lazy.
"Where should I put this piece of UI/information?"
"Just place it above everything else."
With SPAs you don't even have an excuse that "a full-page reload will take longer" because you can change the whole page/layout instantly.
I think the author's objections can all be addressed by using history.pushState() and treating the modal window like navigation to a subpage/route (in an SPA-style app). This way the modal will have a URL, so it can be bookmarked, can be opened in a new tab (if it's opened through a link) and the back button will work (closing the modal).
> and the back button will work (closing the modal).
Which opens a whole new can of worms!
What is the meaning of pressing "back" when modal window is shown? Is it "cancel"? What if I already changed something within the modal? What if "back" causes losing some input within the modal? Should we... show another modal for confirmation of going back?
Same with navigation via "back"/"forward" into a modal (which is now present on the history stack) - if this was modal with some action... can I execute it again? Did I just execute it by navigating into it?
Which opens a whole new can of worms!
What is the meaning of pressing "back" when modal window is shown? Is it "cancel"? What if I already changed something within the modal? What if "back" causes losing some input within the modal? Should we... show another modal for confirmation of going back?
Same with navigation via "back"/"forward" into a modal (which is now present on the history stack) - if this was modal with some action... can I execute it again? Did I just execute it by navigating into it?
This works, except when it doesn’t. I’m not sure about react, but Vue router has some funny and unintuitive interactions when you do this which will often result in unnecessary page reloads, either when you push state or when the back button pops it again. Maybe react behaves better but my experience with it has made me not want to directly mess with history unless I have a particularly good reason to.
It seemed to work well in Angular in the tiny app where I tried it, but to be clear I didn't directly mess with the history API – I used the navigation mechanisms of the Angular framework to manage this. Calling the browser history API directly could probably confuse the framework.
The issue is that as web software becomes more and more complex and desktop-esque, it needs features that were common in desktop software. It's a poor user experience to open a new window for lots of things in the browser, but that sort of functionality is still needed sometimes.
If I think about the engineering product I work on and where they do have modals, none of them would work with a separate page. It's things like "Load one or more of your saved graphs (which you can search and filter) into this existing page of graphs"
If I think about the engineering product I work on and where they do have modals, none of them would work with a separate page. It's things like "Load one or more of your saved graphs (which you can search and filter) into this existing page of graphs"
The whole subject of modality in design is a long story but the short story is that we should not mistake the need for ease of implementation with the need for clarity of design. They are orthogonal.
There is no question that a design gets easier to parse for users when it is serialized by modality. Likewise, serialization is dramatically easier for implementors since it eliminates the need for concurrent execution.
Context matters. Those choices have strong historical reasons for their existence in operating systems and their user interfaces. However, they have little place for being emulated on the web.
Why? Because they give rise to all manner of bad implementation such as the fact that linking structures have not grown at the pace they should have, particularly as it relates to documentation.
All you have to do is look at Amazon's constant proxy to "click here, click there" as a sad excuse for why HCIs don't scale at the same rate as APIs and you can condemn a large portion of the last two decades of design on the internet since these patterns have been copied ad nauseum but only exist because we've employed tools that automated their creation when a link has always been worth a thousand words of "click here, click there".
REST applies to HCIs as much or more than APIs.
There is no question that a design gets easier to parse for users when it is serialized by modality. Likewise, serialization is dramatically easier for implementors since it eliminates the need for concurrent execution.
Context matters. Those choices have strong historical reasons for their existence in operating systems and their user interfaces. However, they have little place for being emulated on the web.
Why? Because they give rise to all manner of bad implementation such as the fact that linking structures have not grown at the pace they should have, particularly as it relates to documentation.
All you have to do is look at Amazon's constant proxy to "click here, click there" as a sad excuse for why HCIs don't scale at the same rate as APIs and you can condemn a large portion of the last two decades of design on the internet since these patterns have been copied ad nauseum but only exist because we've employed tools that automated their creation when a link has always been worth a thousand words of "click here, click there".
REST applies to HCIs as much or more than APIs.
I guarantee this was written by somebody who has never worked as a professional UI/UX designer
It’s the kind of bold, blanket statement that sounds really great and is a fun opinion to hold, but when confronted with reality crumbles (as many statements of that kind do).
It’s the kind of bold, blanket statement that sounds really great and is a fun opinion to hold, but when confronted with reality crumbles (as many statements of that kind do).
> somebody who has never worked as a professional UI/UX designer
Such as the Nielsen Norman Group.
> "Do not use modal dialogs for nonessential information that is not related to the current user flow."
> From https://www.nngroup.com/articles/modal-nonmodal-dialog/
Nonessential information such as, let's say, "details."
I'd say that this minisite is exactly on point.
Such as the Nielsen Norman Group.
> "Do not use modal dialogs for nonessential information that is not related to the current user flow."
> From https://www.nngroup.com/articles/modal-nonmodal-dialog/
Nonessential information such as, let's say, "details."
I'd say that this minisite is exactly on point.
Details pages with a lot of information? Bad fit.
Small messages that need to be brought to the user's attention and a simple "OK"/"Cancel" button? Yes, this is a good fit. That's what modal windows were originally created for.
Small messages that need to be brought to the user's attention and a simple "OK"/"Cancel" button? Yes, this is a good fit. That's what modal windows were originally created for.
I've seen confused users who missed/ignored the tiny OK window, and through the app froze, because the large parent window stopped reacting to clicks.
MS Outlook is very good at opening modals that block interactivity with the main window. And opening them on a different monitor to the original window (even if said monitor is full-screening a different application so the modal actually opens on a currently-invisible workspace) so it's not even obvious why.
For a HTML based presentation you probably have a backing element that covers the rest of the page to trap clicks anyway. Make this partially opaque instead of transparent and the modal becomes much more obvious. Or if you want to be a bit more fancy and can rely on the user having a browser newer than July 2022 perhaps use backdrop-filter to apply a blur instead of just being partially opaque.
You can do the same on a desktop app too, but it is less commonly done. To further avoid confusion, try make sure the pop-up modal appears over the parent window that it is blocking input for (this may mean coding your own window instead of the platform default alert/confirmation box, if the call to open one doesn't allow positioning information to be specified). I've seen alerts/confirmations pop-up on a different screen to the one that the parent window is on which makes missing it much easier (especially if the other screen is away from the main one, perhaps it is being projected at a wall for a demo). To further help: if the user clicks the disabled parent, move the pop-up to where they clicked – usually the title-bar or other chrome on the pop-up flashes in this case, but that isn't helpful if it is on screen 2 and the user is staring intently at screen 1.
You can do the same on a desktop app too, but it is less commonly done. To further avoid confusion, try make sure the pop-up modal appears over the parent window that it is blocking input for (this may mean coding your own window instead of the platform default alert/confirmation box, if the call to open one doesn't allow positioning information to be specified). I've seen alerts/confirmations pop-up on a different screen to the one that the parent window is on which makes missing it much easier (especially if the other screen is away from the main one, perhaps it is being projected at a wall for a demo). To further help: if the user clicks the disabled parent, move the pop-up to where they clicked – usually the title-bar or other chrome on the pop-up flashes in this case, but that isn't helpful if it is on screen 2 and the user is staring intently at screen 1.
So much fragile tedious technological hackery and pointless showboating of rube goldberg machination to implement something that's just a user hostile terrible idea in the first place.
Just don't.
Just don't.
There are times when a modal input is genuinely useful or indeed necessary, not just programmers being lazy and taking the easy-for-us-but-shit-for-users option. A number of these are already mentioned elsewhere in this thread and the original article, so I'll not repeat them.
> Just don't.
Except where it actually makes sense to. Or you are trying to improve the UX of something that already works that way and you don't have time/budget/permission to reengineer more thoroughly.
Where it makes sense to the “technological hackery” isn't pointless: where the UX pain can't be easily removed the visual hackery at least reduces it to a minimum. Similarly for when you are stuck with the overall design (at least for now) and are trying to minimise the suck for the user.
I'll not disagree with going fancy and adding blur filters & whatnot is showboating, I'm firmly in the function over fancy tricks camp too, but many people want things to look pretty as well as be functional¹. And once you are already doing the functional, the few small tweaks to make it prettier are hardly hard work so don't waste enough time to deserve the level of incredulity you are expressing, so while I might not bother I'd not judge others for doing so as long as the fancy doesn't get in the way of the function.
--
[1] heck, some will judge your work on the visuals before even thinking about the functional matters
[2] or take more time than refactoring the UI to remove the need for the modal, if that is possible/practical
> Just don't.
Except where it actually makes sense to. Or you are trying to improve the UX of something that already works that way and you don't have time/budget/permission to reengineer more thoroughly.
Where it makes sense to the “technological hackery” isn't pointless: where the UX pain can't be easily removed the visual hackery at least reduces it to a minimum. Similarly for when you are stuck with the overall design (at least for now) and are trying to minimise the suck for the user.
I'll not disagree with going fancy and adding blur filters & whatnot is showboating, I'm firmly in the function over fancy tricks camp too, but many people want things to look pretty as well as be functional¹. And once you are already doing the functional, the few small tweaks to make it prettier are hardly hard work so don't waste enough time to deserve the level of incredulity you are expressing, so while I might not bother I'd not judge others for doing so as long as the fancy doesn't get in the way of the function.
--
[1] heck, some will judge your work on the visuals before even thinking about the functional matters
[2] or take more time than refactoring the UI to remove the need for the modal, if that is possible/practical
Good points, that I agree with.
There was never a more obnoxious showboaty in-your-face modal dialog than the OPEN LOOK popup notice (as implemented by XView and other toolkits that I won't mention out of shame), with its pointy triangular tail, that would actually violently "warp" your mouse pointer location back and forth between the originating button and the "OK" button:
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/volume-7a-xview/9780937...
https://www.oreilly.com/api/v2/epubs/9780937175873/files/bg4...
https://guidebookgallery.org/articles/facetofacewithopenlook
https://guidebookgallery.org/articles/facetofacewithopenlook...
https://guidebookgallery.org/articles/facetofacewithopenlook...
Open Look modal dialogs were so disruptive they must have been inspired by the Chest Burster scene in Alien:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdBu6VAESeI
The one thing OPEN LOOK did get right were the pushpins. It annoys me to see so many "modern" half-assed semi-skeuomorphic pushpins that instead of actually pushing in just remain in the "not pushed in" state, but highlight a framing box instead. It's in the name, people. It's supposed to pin the window on the screen, and how can it do that it it's just highlighted instead of actually pushing into the hole? Pushpins REALLY should safely and satisfyingly push in, not just sit there sharply pointing out at you menacingly like that. It's not rocket science so I don't understand why so many pushpins don't push in. Was there a user interface software patent on pushpins that push in?
There was never a more obnoxious showboaty in-your-face modal dialog than the OPEN LOOK popup notice (as implemented by XView and other toolkits that I won't mention out of shame), with its pointy triangular tail, that would actually violently "warp" your mouse pointer location back and forth between the originating button and the "OK" button:
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/volume-7a-xview/9780937...
https://www.oreilly.com/api/v2/epubs/9780937175873/files/bg4...
https://guidebookgallery.org/articles/facetofacewithopenlook
https://guidebookgallery.org/articles/facetofacewithopenlook...
https://guidebookgallery.org/articles/facetofacewithopenlook...
Open Look modal dialogs were so disruptive they must have been inspired by the Chest Burster scene in Alien:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdBu6VAESeI
The one thing OPEN LOOK did get right were the pushpins. It annoys me to see so many "modern" half-assed semi-skeuomorphic pushpins that instead of actually pushing in just remain in the "not pushed in" state, but highlight a framing box instead. It's in the name, people. It's supposed to pin the window on the screen, and how can it do that it it's just highlighted instead of actually pushing into the hole? Pushpins REALLY should safely and satisfyingly push in, not just sit there sharply pointing out at you menacingly like that. It's not rocket science so I don't understand why so many pushpins don't push in. Was there a user interface software patent on pushpins that push in?
iOS ⩽ 6 used a radial gradient effect to make it clear that the modal is what’s to be interacted with.
I think the first article I saw complaining about modals was in BYTE magazine circa 1981.
The article says exacyly that itself.
Which I thought made sense but I have missed an ok modal before myself let alone seen others as another commenter pointed out. In native apps they also open off screen which is about as broken as you can get.
So, I may go even further than the article and say there are even fewer cases where it is the best way to do a job.
Which I thought made sense but I have missed an ok modal before myself let alone seen others as another commenter pointed out. In native apps they also open off screen which is about as broken as you can get.
So, I may go even further than the article and say there are even fewer cases where it is the best way to do a job.
The end of the article says exactly that.
People who implement modal windows are antisocial. And, there is a special place in hell for people who implement system modal windows.
It happens like this: some manager just wants a simple modal to show some details (see, he is not just a failed developer, he knows words, like modal).
Do we need it to have it's own url? No. Do we need to edit the data? No! Just a simple modal! Why are you asking all these questions?
The thing gets implemented and the users like how fast the data is shown. But can we just add some action buttons like Accept and Reject instead of the Ok button? Why close the modal and then hit an action button when you can have them right there?
The buttons get implemented, the users love it. Manager comes back, but can we edit one or two fields? Sure. Some of the fields will open a modal to let users select the value. Should we reimplement it as a regular page so we don't have a modal in another modal? Manager: No, that will take forever. Validation, error messages, scrollbars?
The manager refuses to fix it because he burned through all the allocated time and he doesn't want to have a difficult discussion with the stakeholders. And anyway, in these meetings the developers are not invited and he can just blame the developers because everybody knows how entitled they are.
The thing gets implemented and the users like how fast the data is shown. But can we just add some action buttons like Accept and Reject instead of the Ok button? Why close the modal and then hit an action button when you can have them right there?
The buttons get implemented, the users love it. Manager comes back, but can we edit one or two fields? Sure. Some of the fields will open a modal to let users select the value. Should we reimplement it as a regular page so we don't have a modal in another modal? Manager: No, that will take forever. Validation, error messages, scrollbars?
The manager refuses to fix it because he burned through all the allocated time and he doesn't want to have a difficult discussion with the stakeholders. And anyway, in these meetings the developers are not invited and he can just blame the developers because everybody knows how entitled they are.
Commenters may wish to note the last section of the article:
> Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity:
> Alerts
> Confirmation dialogs
> Forms for creating/updating entities
> Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity:
> Alerts
> Confirmation dialogs
> Forms for creating/updating entities
I would expand my criticism to elements such as material design drawers and similar ones. Regardless of the support provided by the platform (`<dialog>`, convenient APIs etc), you may still find yourself fighting with the resulting state -- for instance, when the screen must adjust its behavior and/or content according to dialog's content or state. The requirements in such situations can get overwhelming quite quickly.
> Because it looked good in the mockup
Indeed, tools like Figma can create a dangerous illusion of simplicity. I wonder how much time and effort has been wasted during the actual software development process, despite the initial, marginal savings in mockup design.
One must also take in account that the hourly rates for developers are typically higher than those of UI designers, so that it doesn't make much sense to increase productivity of the latter at the expense of the former.
> Because it looked good in the mockup
Indeed, tools like Figma can create a dangerous illusion of simplicity. I wonder how much time and effort has been wasted during the actual software development process, despite the initial, marginal savings in mockup design.
One must also take in account that the hourly rates for developers are typically higher than those of UI designers, so that it doesn't make much sense to increase productivity of the latter at the expense of the former.
THANK YOU OMG
I have lots of frustration with modal views that: 1. block me from seeing the things that I probably need to enter into the view 2. disappear when you accidentally click outside them 3. don't scroll properly 4. don't allow scrolling of the page behind 5. don't play well with reasonable browser extensions (uBlock, but other things as well like Disconnect) or even the tracking prevention build into browsers. 6. store data in a weird place so that a second window of the same site in a different location opens the same (now incorrect) data in the modal.
These things are becoming super common in line-of-business apps, where they interrupt workflow. Better options:
1. New page, as recommended by this link 2. Expanding a region of interest to allow the form to fit 3. Making the page more interactive in other ways so that a modal doesn't seem like the best way to do the interaction
I have lots of frustration with modal views that: 1. block me from seeing the things that I probably need to enter into the view 2. disappear when you accidentally click outside them 3. don't scroll properly 4. don't allow scrolling of the page behind 5. don't play well with reasonable browser extensions (uBlock, but other things as well like Disconnect) or even the tracking prevention build into browsers. 6. store data in a weird place so that a second window of the same site in a different location opens the same (now incorrect) data in the modal.
These things are becoming super common in line-of-business apps, where they interrupt workflow. Better options:
1. New page, as recommended by this link 2. Expanding a region of interest to allow the form to fit 3. Making the page more interactive in other ways so that a modal doesn't seem like the best way to do the interaction
Next.js 13 has a neat solution: parallel routes (https://nextjs.org/docs/app/building-your-application/routin...)
I tried Next.js very briefly and I initially found this concept really nice. However I bounced back and gave up on the framework for some related reason. I felt like I gave up control to much, maybe due to the routing model. Feels like some common problems were made much harder because of it.
I implemented it in a bookkeeping app I’m working on. It works nicely but the documentation is very poor; I had to constantly refer to a third party example.
Once you get how it works it’s neat.
Once you get how it works it’s neat.
If your page loads are slower than 200ms, I'd actually suggest having modals. Or at least some way of progressively showing more information (toggles, accordions, etc.) that stay on page.
SPA page loads can get really slow, which can frustrate or disorient users. Having too many page loads to sequentially drill down your info architecture can get really annoying for users. If your pages are 1 or 2 layers deep in your architecture, and the rest is shown in some way within the page (again, modals are one way to do it), as a piece of "fleeting information", your users will appreciate it.
SPA page loads can get really slow, which can frustrate or disorient users. Having too many page loads to sequentially drill down your info architecture can get really annoying for users. If your pages are 1 or 2 layers deep in your architecture, and the rest is shown in some way within the page (again, modals are one way to do it), as a piece of "fleeting information", your users will appreciate it.
For an SPA, there is no difference in loading time between a modal and non-modal view. The (annoying) SPA penalty is initial page load, which is a one-time cost.
The location changes are virtual through the history API, with a reload just causing the SPA to start from that location instead of from the root/home view.
The location changes are virtual through the history API, with a reload just causing the SPA to start from that location instead of from the root/home view.
Jira has slow loading modals
Yes I do. Not every software is cathedral built on a green field with unlimited budget. Sometimes you just need to smack an alert() or confirm() or prompt() in the middle of code and move on to more important stuff.
Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity:
Alerts
Confirmation dialogs
Forms for creating/updating entitiesModal Windows absolutely can be shared with a link if done well.
Open the modal as an overlay and set the url with javascript.
Then also have a noscript tag which contains a link to that (modal) page. On the server side you just need to make sure that you can render that page and serve it.
This is pretty much how imo. modern SSR frameworks like sveltekit are intended to be used.
Of course if non-js users aren't a concern, you can do this with an SPA too, the client side routing just needs to be programmed right and the server needs to serve the bundle correctly.
I've seen tons of feedback directly from customers which indicate the opposite, losing context is super annoying
That's orthogonal to modals.
In defense of those customers, the back button has become a game of Russian roulette. Most of the time it takes you back to the page or UI state you were on. The rest of the time it breaks the JS, takes you to an awful "before you go" page you never navigated to, displays the mysterious "confirm form resubmission" dialog, or in the case of the infamous Treasury Direct site, marks your account as disabled until you perform a new kind of corporeal signing ritual that your local bank branch manager has never even heard of but apparently must now perform with you.
It's sadly reasonable not to expect users to trust, or even try, the back button.
It's sadly reasonable not to expect users to trust, or even try, the back button.
I click on the examples and it throws the page back to the top.
I refuse to read anything that is said after the example being useless.
I refuse to read anything that is said after the example being useless.
I disagree. Modal windows are great if the information is small enough that it can be digested in a single glance. Making me open up a new tab to view a paragraph of text is just plain annoying.
Then just create a new <div> that shows the information inline.
Counterpoint: This is a little like arguing that you should use GOTO instead of call stacks. Like a function call, with a modal you keep your place and know you will be able return to where you were. No risk of getting lost.
Linking to a separate page is like GOTO control flow. You leave it up to the user to figure out where to go from there, but the user usually doesn’t know the full sequence of steps that are part of a task. It’s your responsibility to guide them.
Linking to a separate page is like GOTO control flow. You leave it up to the user to figure out where to go from there, but the user usually doesn’t know the full sequence of steps that are part of a task. It’s your responsibility to guide them.
1. you can certainly implement good user interface accessibility in both page-based websites and single-page applications, the latter requiring time, knowledge, and proper prioritization within the project
2. once again, there is a failure here to recognize which use cases are best served by a website (i.e., a set of web pages that use native browser navigation) or by a single-page application (which takes native UI paradigms such as multiple windows and modals and implements them using web technologies)
3. blanket criticism for single-page applications often comes from people who have no real understanding of web development and harbor nostalgia for the "good old days" when browsers acted only as display devices for server-generated HTML strings; those people aren't worth arguing with, I don't have time for them, I'd rather spend my time improving web technologies so that more people can implement applications that feel "native" yet work across different architectures, devices, screen sizes, languages, and writing directions, built on top of a platform that is privacy-centric by default, and not controlled by a single company
2. once again, there is a failure here to recognize which use cases are best served by a website (i.e., a set of web pages that use native browser navigation) or by a single-page application (which takes native UI paradigms such as multiple windows and modals and implements them using web technologies)
3. blanket criticism for single-page applications often comes from people who have no real understanding of web development and harbor nostalgia for the "good old days" when browsers acted only as display devices for server-generated HTML strings; those people aren't worth arguing with, I don't have time for them, I'd rather spend my time improving web technologies so that more people can implement applications that feel "native" yet work across different architectures, devices, screen sizes, languages, and writing directions, built on top of a platform that is privacy-centric by default, and not controlled by a single company
I mostly agree with this. I've been refactoring some "modals" that have 30+ fields. Ultimately, I prefer the idea of subdividing a gigantic web app resource into smaller pieces whenever it isn't entirely catastrophic for the UX. For example:
One other benefit to using full routable pages for your various views is that you can subdivide the work a lot more easily. Assuming you have some common layout/style system (which you absolutely should), you can realistically part out the dev work at the grain of a URL at a time. We still have a few modals, but they are all of the "confirm scary operation XYZ" variety.
/MyResource/123 (all operations happen here as various "Modes")
vs
/MyResource/123/View
/MyResource/123/Export
/MyResource/123/EditPropertyA
/MyResource/123/EditPropertyB
/MyResource/123/Delete
etc...
One other benefit to using full routable pages for your various views is that you can subdivide the work a lot more easily. Assuming you have some common layout/style system (which you absolutely should), you can realistically part out the dev work at the grain of a URL at a time. We still have a few modals, but they are all of the "confirm scary operation XYZ" variety.
> Modal windows can't be bookmarked or shared as links.
Modals can definitely be bookmarkable if they are dependent on a certain path or query param to appear.
Modals can definitely be bookmarkable if they are dependent on a certain path or query param to appear.
Last paragraph says this:
> Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity: > [...] > Forms for creating/updating entities
Wow, in my opinion this a perfect example where a separate page IS still superior to a modal: how much better a "create issue" jira PAGE is vs the modal?
> Modal windows can be used for views that don't constitute a "resource" or correspond to a domain entity: > [...] > Forms for creating/updating entities
Wow, in my opinion this a perfect example where a separate page IS still superior to a modal: how much better a "create issue" jira PAGE is vs the modal?
If users are expected to spend a long time and use many tools to compose something, then I agree a full page form is best. For something like adding to a todo list, or where users are expected to add many items one after the other, a modal is better.
You can also take a hybrid approach: many calendar apps have a small popup for adding an event that the user can expand into a whole (nonmodal) window for editing all the details.
You can also take a hybrid approach: many calendar apps have a small popup for adding an event that the user can expand into a whole (nonmodal) window for editing all the details.
Ironic that the popover API was just announced 2 days ago. https://developer.chrome.com/en/blog/introducing-popover-api...
youdontneedadomainforyouronepagepedantry.com
Cheap shots aside, this was a very unconvincing set of arguments. Would it have not been a better use of ones time, both the author and reader's, to have documented both the pros and cons of modals instead of this lame, "trendy", You don't need takedown?
you-do-need-dashes-between-the-words-in-the-domain-name-of-your-one-page-pedantry-because-then-you-can-clearly-communicate-your-message-without-actually-requiring-people-to-click-on-the-link-or-even-bothering-registering-the-domain-or-putting-up-a-web-site-unless-of-course-you-are-just-publishing-click-bait-to-sell-ads-in-which-case-fuck-off.com
> Modal windows can't be bookmarked or shared as links
We use modal windows specifically for this reason (for our payment application's checkout page).
Also using a modal significantly improves the checkout experience in case of SDK flows for payment methods like Klarna, Google pay etc.
Personally I feel modal windows are better aligned to the user's flow of attention. We also have redirection flows for these payment methods to open the authentication page in a new tab but we pick the modal flow ever single time for a better experience.
You can get a feel of what I'm talking about over here: https://demo-hyperswitch.netlify.app/checkout
We use modal windows specifically for this reason (for our payment application's checkout page).
Also using a modal significantly improves the checkout experience in case of SDK flows for payment methods like Klarna, Google pay etc.
Personally I feel modal windows are better aligned to the user's flow of attention. We also have redirection flows for these payment methods to open the authentication page in a new tab but we pick the modal flow ever single time for a better experience.
You can get a feel of what I'm talking about over here: https://demo-hyperswitch.netlify.app/checkout
"To compensate for slow page load" is probably my main use (still rare), and, hey, sometimes you've got slow page load.
Another reason might be to avoid losing state on the underlying page.
If you have a "SPA" style app, it might obviate both of these reasons. In an SPA app (ideally one with good URL and back button behavior of course) the difference between a modal window and a separate page perhaps becomes _only_ one of UX, which presentation is better?
But in a more traditional server-side-rendered app with minimal UI-focused JS, other considerations still exist which are legitimate, it seems to me.
Another reason might be to avoid losing state on the underlying page.
If you have a "SPA" style app, it might obviate both of these reasons. In an SPA app (ideally one with good URL and back button behavior of course) the difference between a modal window and a separate page perhaps becomes _only_ one of UX, which presentation is better?
But in a more traditional server-side-rendered app with minimal UI-focused JS, other considerations still exist which are legitimate, it seems to me.
> In an SPA app (ideally one with good URL and back button behavior of course)
Those are rare. So much easier to mess up than to match native browser UX.
Those are rare. So much easier to mess up than to match native browser UX.
I think whether to use modal window or not should be case-by-case basis.
I once refactored a web application for a data analysis platform using a front-end framework that I developed myself, and many of the prompts and information display functions in this framework are implemented through modal windows.
When we showed the system to customer, we still gained a little acceptance.
Of course, this internal private system doesn't need to do SEO optimization and indexed by search engines, if there is such a demand, using modal windows may not be the best way.
Phoenix LiveView handles all of those concerns extremely well and pretty much for free. All of my modals are tied to a live action in a given live view. You can bookmark them, use the browser back button to close them and the state "under the modal" is a complete non-issue. It's just loaded as part of the live view and a modal is shown only on specific actions.
That may sound like gibberish if you're not familiar with Phoenix LiveView, but it all makes sense and it just works.
That may sound like gibberish if you're not familiar with Phoenix LiveView, but it all makes sense and it just works.
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I like the azure portal solution, where everything opens in a modal, in the form of a panel. When the link is followed, the panel opens as the main window.
The worst modal window is the save dialog in Firefox. Often I need to see something in the page to put into filename, and the save dialog blocks it.
A few years ago GNOME started doing this all over the place. Modals are spatially coupled to the parent window so moving the modal moves the parent too. Drives me crazy that I can’t refer to the information underneath.
GNOME is a lost cause. Once they started shadowing keybindings from readline they failed at UX.
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Disagree, you can put the info in whatever box you want.
Just make it so that you can copy-paste the URL and you will see the same page with the same modal openen.
Just make it so that you can copy-paste the URL and you will see the same page with the same modal openen.
The Treachery of Modals: Ceci n'est pas une page
> Modal windows can't be bookmarked or shared as links. Deep linking can be added to modals, but it's complex. What will show up in the background when the link is followed? How much application state needs to be restored? How will the user be confident that it will work?
Why is there a completely untested assumption that everything should be linkable?
Why is there a completely untested assumption that everything should be linkable?
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A part of me wishes the "Bonus: RESTful UI" section at the bottom opened a "Coming soon" modal
> You don't need a modal window
You don't need most of the cruft that clutters "modern" webpages. While not solely responsible, ever more "clever design" has certainly contributed to the status quo, where we load upwards 30MB of garbage to display <10 lines of information.
You don't need most of the cruft that clutters "modern" webpages. While not solely responsible, ever more "clever design" has certainly contributed to the status quo, where we load upwards 30MB of garbage to display <10 lines of information.
Modals disempower the user. That's why they are so popular with mandatory Cookie selection dialogs.
Like with a lot of things, modals get overused then people get sick of seeing modals everywhere and go anti-modal. Bootstrap probably helped contribute to that.
Modals have their use and function. Don't overdo it and maybe even provide non-modal options in addition to the modal.
Modals have their use and function. Don't overdo it and maybe even provide non-modal options in addition to the modal.
I hate separate pages because I lose all the context in the background. More often that not, I find myself needing info from the main page and often have to go back to it. Same thing happens on modals that you can't grab the title bar and drag it around.
That is only a problem on mobile where you can hardly have 2 windows open on the same screen. But then modals suck on mobile too.
I hate them, but our UX designers use them everywhere. I try to fight back, but their "usability studies" always comeback in favour of modals.
I really don't get it. We're doing mostly SPAs, so any back-button would be as fast as closing the modal.
I really don't get it. We're doing mostly SPAs, so any back-button would be as fast as closing the modal.
I'd even argue all html modals are bad designs; including alerts, forms, and confirmations. HTML modals are poor emulations of native dialog boxes; they try to address rendering performance problems that no longer exist.
While I agree with the author, I can’t actually think of an example where a modal is being misused in this context? Every application I’ve worked on with a ‘resource detail’ component had a open in new tab hyperlink.
What are good alternatives? I like <details> and collapsible panels.
> Forms for creating/updating entities
Sprinting along delightfully, getting everything right, every piston firing... then falls on face at the last hurdle.
No, don't put forms in modals, gah!
Sprinting along delightfully, getting everything right, every piston firing... then falls on face at the last hurdle.
No, don't put forms in modals, gah!
Love your username, OP.
Most of this post is trying to declare rules that just aren't true. Even Asana will deep link a modal, it's just another piece of state in the url
ThisIsAShittyClickbaitArticleWhyIsItAnEntireWebsite.dev
I want it to close when I click outside of the window.
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Yes. Why does nobody use alert() anymore?
I always use it while developing a new web app, but admit that I always switch it to something "fancier" in production, mainly because I find alerts rather ugly. But, goodness gracious, it would simplify so many things! I've just sort of assumed that default browser alerts were considered a big no-no these days, but that assumption comes from the fact that I simply don't see them being used much. I guess I should look into this more. Sure would shorten dev times!
When external pages can show in modals or separately because you are using Unpoly.js then it's perfect
Bootcamp React developers discover MPAs
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Written by a confusing developer who love to reinvent the wheel all the time.
Plus: Not accessible
A stupid post
Loading a new page, new tab, or simply navigating fully away to a new editing screen are all pretty heavy disorienting actions for something that could be pretty light.
But it's related to the amount of work being done in the modal.
For a very small amount of work (e.g. editing a single text field), inline-editing would be best; for a lot of work (e.g. composing a bunch of textboxes and including other data, etc) a dedicated page is best.
A modal belongs somewhere in-between - editing a few things at once, in context of other things.
"Can this modal be an inline-edit?" <-- first question I'd ask. If the answer is No:
"Will the work being done on the modal take more than 2 minutes to do?" <--- then I'd consider a separate page.
But things in-between seem perfect for a modal.