Wall found at bottom of Baltic Sea 'may be Europe’s oldest megastructure'(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Wall found at bottom of Baltic Sea 'may be Europe’s oldest megastructure'
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/feb/12/stone-age-wall-found-at-bottom-of-baltic-sea-may-be-europes-oldest-megastructure
76 comments
In case anyone else doesnt know, knickpoints are changes in slope along the wall.
Such a prehistoric megastructure, a dyke to prevent the flooding of Doggerland in the North Sea, is the subject of the sci-fi novel "Stone Spring" by Stephen Baxter.
This headline immediately reminded me of the book. I very much enjoyed reading this story and the two sequels, and I can fully recommend it!
I just can't get enough of underwater archaeology. I'm sure so much of our shared history is buried along the continental shelves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eq-Jyb4bPw
>The Arabian Gulf has one of the longest and richest seafaring traditions anywhere in the world. Prior to 8,000 years ago sea levels were considerably lower and the land to the north of the Emirates was an open and potentially fertile landscape. This landscape is an untapped resource, offering the prospect of not only ancient wrecks, but discoveries from the distant prehistoric submerged landscape of Abu Dhabi.
>This talk delves into the intricacies surrounding the Arabian Gulf as it relates its' position as an archaeological treasure.
Presented by Dr. Richard Cuttler
>The Arabian Gulf has one of the longest and richest seafaring traditions anywhere in the world. Prior to 8,000 years ago sea levels were considerably lower and the land to the north of the Emirates was an open and potentially fertile landscape. This landscape is an untapped resource, offering the prospect of not only ancient wrecks, but discoveries from the distant prehistoric submerged landscape of Abu Dhabi.
>This talk delves into the intricacies surrounding the Arabian Gulf as it relates its' position as an archaeological treasure.
Presented by Dr. Richard Cuttler
Fall of Civilizations Podcast talks about this with the article on Mesopotamia!
[deleted]
> I'm sure so much of our shared history is buried along the continental shelves
Yup temperatures and sea levels have been rising for a long time. It’s amazing what geography looks like when you lower sea level.
Yup temperatures and sea levels have been rising for a long time. It’s amazing what geography looks like when you lower sea level.
Is the undersea environment better or worse than being on/in dry land?
One immediate benefit is that there would've been fewer thieves looting the artifacts.
One immediate benefit is that there would've been fewer thieves looting the artifacts.
Saltwater is bad, but sediments will protect most of it (hopefully). In general way worse, than on land I would say.
Ideally, something is conserved under dry and oxygenfree conditions. But even in a swamp, without oxygen - amazing things have been found.
The question is probably, was everything covered before the salt water came, or afterwards. And stable. And while in the water with currents that can change, it is possible that everything gets washed free and then covered again over time. Also not good.
(Also exicted about the topic, I am strongly thinking about buying a professional metal detector. Close to where I live, there was one 3000 year old burial site found, I strongly suspect, there are more. And this site, is also not that far from me and 20 m is something you can dive (but I need to train that again))
Ideally, something is conserved under dry and oxygenfree conditions. But even in a swamp, without oxygen - amazing things have been found.
The question is probably, was everything covered before the salt water came, or afterwards. And stable. And while in the water with currents that can change, it is possible that everything gets washed free and then covered again over time. Also not good.
(Also exicted about the topic, I am strongly thinking about buying a professional metal detector. Close to where I live, there was one 3000 year old burial site found, I strongly suspect, there are more. And this site, is also not that far from me and 20 m is something you can dive (but I need to train that again))
>Ideally, something is conserved under dry and oxygenfree conditions.
As a result, a disproportionate amount of our knowledge of Roman bureaucracy comes from Egypt, simply because papyrus preserves so well (even accidentally) in so much of the area. It makes research somewhat awkward, because we know Egypt received special treatment in some ways but it's so often a sample-size of one that we don't know if lots of things are an Egypt thing or a Roman-province thing.
As a result, a disproportionate amount of our knowledge of Roman bureaucracy comes from Egypt, simply because papyrus preserves so well (even accidentally) in so much of the area. It makes research somewhat awkward, because we know Egypt received special treatment in some ways but it's so often a sample-size of one that we don't know if lots of things are an Egypt thing or a Roman-province thing.
Mind detailing more about the special treatment they received? Sounds interesting
I'm guessing the "special treatment" was that they were nerfed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Egypt "Egypt was unique in that its garrison was commanded by the praefectus Aegypti, an official of the equestrian order, rather than, as in other provinces, a governor of the senatorial class." They didn't want another Cleopatra/Mark Antony situation.
Also drag-net fishing and boat anchors are really, really bad to preservation of sites. Unfortunately most of the likely archeological sites are also, for obvious reasons, just off the coast where such activities are common.
Cold freshwater like the Great Lakes is great for preserving stuff - Michigan has a strong wreck diving ecosystem.
At the coast line,
https://greekreporter.com/2024/01/22/pavlopetri-greece-ancie...
Or modern victims of dam building,
https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/spanish-sunken-vil...
https://greekreporter.com/2024/01/22/pavlopetri-greece-ancie...
Or modern victims of dam building,
https://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/spanish-sunken-vil...
I wish this included an artist's illustration of what they think the wall looked like.
There's an artistic illustration of what it might have looked like at northern german public TV channel NDR [0].
It is only the teaser image and doesn't show up on their actual article. [1]
[0] https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/ostsee...
[1] https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/rostoc...
It is only the teaser image and doesn't show up on their actual article. [1]
[0] https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/ostsee...
[1] https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/mecklenburg-vorpommern/rostoc...
I'm always amazed at the lack of pictures in mainstream articles about science
looks like figures 4 is the only picture
Related:
Evidence of hunter-gatherer societies at the bottom of the great lakes:
https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.org/2014/05/06/anc...
Evidence of hunter-gatherer societies at the bottom of the great lakes:
https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.org/2014/05/06/anc...
Sounds like they're guessing it's like desert kite
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_kite
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_kite
I’ll take “may be” quite strongly - there are SO many submerged geological formations such as moraines which have been mistaken for human structures, like the Sarns off the coast of wales.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarn_Gynfelyn
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarn_Gynfelyn
> However, it was only in September 2021, that we detected a spatially continuous, almost 1-km long, and usually <1 m high morphologic feature in high-resolution shipborne multibeam echosounder data. This elongated structure, that we hereafter refer to as the Blinkerwall
Why "blinker"? Is that German slang for an echo sounder or something?
Why "blinker"? Is that German slang for an echo sounder or something?
The Baltic sea has changed shape a lot over the last tens of thousands of years. Sea levels have rised while land has rised too. This video illustrates through animation:
https://youtu.be/Jzm9tald1zA
What would have been neat would have been to see the extent of the ice sheet on top of this.
https://youtu.be/Jzm9tald1zA
What would have been neat would have been to see the extent of the ice sheet on top of this.
Southeast Asia had a million square miles of prime habitat, now underwater, until only 20,000 years ago. It stretched south/east from Korea, connecting Taiwan to the mainland, east off Viet Nam and south all the way to Borneo, Sumatra, and Java. We call it Sundaland today. Indonesia occupies its mountaintops.
There was time and space enough there for a whole civilization as sophisticated as ancient Egypt to rise and fall and rise again, and finally be submerged. People who lived there, and had to move uphill as the sea claimed their great-grandparents' homes, might retain no hint of their ancestors' achievements.
Something similar could have happened in the middle of the Sahara, and now be under sand dunes, instead. With no trading partners, there would be no expectation of artifacts remaining to be found elsewhere. We might never find any hint of such a civilization, if they existed. ("Atlantis", you may say, but that is just a tale.)
The Amazon rain forest once held tens of millions of people living in major cities, maintaining the whole Amazon basin as an orchard they had domesticated for at least 10,000 years. We had no hint of any of it until barely 50 years ago. What is left of their specialized knowledge, beyond subtle ayahuasca, manioc, and cacao processing? (Sweet potato, anyway, reached the Pacific Islands.) Their civilization was apparently wiped out by the assortment of diseases brought by Europeans, and vanished beneath the unchecked forest in only a century.
We should not believe in anything without evidence, but it would be foolish not to continue seeking such evidence everywhere it might be.
There was time and space enough there for a whole civilization as sophisticated as ancient Egypt to rise and fall and rise again, and finally be submerged. People who lived there, and had to move uphill as the sea claimed their great-grandparents' homes, might retain no hint of their ancestors' achievements.
Something similar could have happened in the middle of the Sahara, and now be under sand dunes, instead. With no trading partners, there would be no expectation of artifacts remaining to be found elsewhere. We might never find any hint of such a civilization, if they existed. ("Atlantis", you may say, but that is just a tale.)
The Amazon rain forest once held tens of millions of people living in major cities, maintaining the whole Amazon basin as an orchard they had domesticated for at least 10,000 years. We had no hint of any of it until barely 50 years ago. What is left of their specialized knowledge, beyond subtle ayahuasca, manioc, and cacao processing? (Sweet potato, anyway, reached the Pacific Islands.) Their civilization was apparently wiped out by the assortment of diseases brought by Europeans, and vanished beneath the unchecked forest in only a century.
We should not believe in anything without evidence, but it would be foolish not to continue seeking such evidence everywhere it might be.
As well as Doggerland (I love the name) which connected Britain to continental Europe!
(It should say "south/west from Korea".)
I will add that we should not disbelieve without evidence, either. Only after we have explored everywhere will we have evidence against.
I will add that we should not disbelieve without evidence, either. Only after we have explored everywhere will we have evidence against.
And it still changing pretty rapidly https://highcoastkvarken.org/our-joint-world-heritage/the-la...
Clearly we need a scientific expedition to explore these mysterious ancient sunken cyclopean ruins.
[deleted]
While it is submerged under 21 meters of water, apparently 10,000 years ago the sea level was 120 meters lower.
Not to be confused with the Baltic Sea anomaly. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea_anomaly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea_anomaly
Why is this real and not the road to nowhere in the Caribbean?
Neither google nor chatgpt know what the road to nowhere in the Caribbean is, so it's hard to say.
Searching for, 'underwater road caribbean sea -cruise archaeology' yielded results like this:
"Why Some Think Bimini Road Is A Lost Highway To Atlantis"
"Why Some Think Bimini Road Is A Lost Highway To Atlantis"
I wasn't aware of the proper name before searching.
When the choices are sensationalist Atlantean headlines or a Wikipedia "debunk" article, I prefer to opt out of drinking cola entirely. There are more stimulating beverages elsewhere.
When the choices are sensationalist Atlantean headlines or a Wikipedia "debunk" article, I prefer to opt out of drinking cola entirely. There are more stimulating beverages elsewhere.
verisimi(6)
> wall found at bottom of Baltic Sea
Where else are you going to find a wall in the sea, floating?
Where else are you going to find a wall in the sea, floating?
At the shoreline, just underneath the waves.
On the beach, because it washed ashore.
On a tiny uninhabited island "in the sea".
On the salt flats, because the whole ocean dried up (only applicable for Dead Sea or Aral Sea).
On the beach, because it washed ashore.
On a tiny uninhabited island "in the sea".
On the salt flats, because the whole ocean dried up (only applicable for Dead Sea or Aral Sea).
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2312008121
It contains a lot of diagrams of the wall (fig. 2 and 3), as well as an extensive discussion about whether it could have been produced by natural phenomena (heading "Natural Processes as Origin of the Blinkerwall"). The concluding paragraph of that section:
> Taken together, the aspects discussed above do not ultimately rule out a natural process as the genetic origin of the Blinkerwall. However, for each of the different processes, several unresolved questions remain. We consider a shoreline influenced by drifting ice as least unlikely, whereas eskers, moraines, and tsunami deposits appear highly implausible. Finally, there is one observation that cannot be explained by natural processes at all, and which pointed us toward a possible anthropogenic origin of the structure. This is the preferential location of the largest and heaviest stones at knickpoints along the 971-m-long Blinkerwall.