So you want to buy a farm?(zenx.medium.com)
zenx.medium.com
So you want to buy a farm?
https://zenx.medium.com/so-you-want-to-buy-a-farm-c56af5d85a7e
200 comments
I work full time (now remotely) and live on 32 acres of woods and fields. It used to be farmed but hadn't been for a while when I bought it 12 years ago. My initial idea was to grow produce to sell but it didn't work out.
Here are some of the problems I encountered: 1.) Deer - we are overrun with white tail deer. If I don't surround anything I grow with 6ft welded wire fence, it doesn't last a week. I have set up electric fence wired in many different configurations, but the deer seem to figure it out. Usually just as I think I found something that works. 2.) soil - we don't have quality top soil and amending the soil take time and money 3.) rodents - initially we had great success with raised beds (4ft x 8ft) but after several years they eat the roots (really bad in terms of carrots and potatoes) and pretty bad for aquash and beans. We have cats, but they can't kill the rodents fast enough. 4.) time - working full time and trying to pull everything together is really hard. When a crop is ready it needs picked and doesn't care that you are trying to meet a deadline at work. Especially for crops like peas where it seems you have a three day window to pick them at their peak. 5.) time2 - I have equipment so that I can use diesel fuel instead of muscle power. This allows me to get a lot more done, but there are two type of equipment, broken and about to break. I find it impossible to have the time to fix everthing. My back hoe has a broken hydraulic line for over a year now. 6.) selling produce - nothing in more annoying than the customer at the farmers market that comes at the end of the day and tried to buy whatever you have left at a huge discount. Also, there is a fine line between collusion and competitiveness when it comes to pricing at a farmers market. There seems to always be a guy that buys a stall once because he has too many tomatoes and sells them at a price I would lose money at if I had to match it. 7.) seasonal animals are easier than crops because you have more control. We lost all of the produce this year because of drought, but did well on eggs and free range chicken. I'm thinking about a small number of pigs or lamb next year. We don't keep anything but egg layers over winter.
One thing to mind is that I work damn hard at physical labor. My parents are in good health in their eighties, but I don't see me getting there. The toll on my body is very evident to me. I really hope I don't live that long as it won't be pleasant.
I do love growing things though. we have a beautiful orchard of pears, apples, plums, and cherries. Rasberries and blueberries that I can pick at any time. Probably the highest quality chicken and eggs you can find. Great parties when the sweet corn comes in.
Here are some of the problems I encountered: 1.) Deer - we are overrun with white tail deer. If I don't surround anything I grow with 6ft welded wire fence, it doesn't last a week. I have set up electric fence wired in many different configurations, but the deer seem to figure it out. Usually just as I think I found something that works. 2.) soil - we don't have quality top soil and amending the soil take time and money 3.) rodents - initially we had great success with raised beds (4ft x 8ft) but after several years they eat the roots (really bad in terms of carrots and potatoes) and pretty bad for aquash and beans. We have cats, but they can't kill the rodents fast enough. 4.) time - working full time and trying to pull everything together is really hard. When a crop is ready it needs picked and doesn't care that you are trying to meet a deadline at work. Especially for crops like peas where it seems you have a three day window to pick them at their peak. 5.) time2 - I have equipment so that I can use diesel fuel instead of muscle power. This allows me to get a lot more done, but there are two type of equipment, broken and about to break. I find it impossible to have the time to fix everthing. My back hoe has a broken hydraulic line for over a year now. 6.) selling produce - nothing in more annoying than the customer at the farmers market that comes at the end of the day and tried to buy whatever you have left at a huge discount. Also, there is a fine line between collusion and competitiveness when it comes to pricing at a farmers market. There seems to always be a guy that buys a stall once because he has too many tomatoes and sells them at a price I would lose money at if I had to match it. 7.) seasonal animals are easier than crops because you have more control. We lost all of the produce this year because of drought, but did well on eggs and free range chicken. I'm thinking about a small number of pigs or lamb next year. We don't keep anything but egg layers over winter.
One thing to mind is that I work damn hard at physical labor. My parents are in good health in their eighties, but I don't see me getting there. The toll on my body is very evident to me. I really hope I don't live that long as it won't be pleasant.
I do love growing things though. we have a beautiful orchard of pears, apples, plums, and cherries. Rasberries and blueberries that I can pick at any time. Probably the highest quality chicken and eggs you can find. Great parties when the sweet corn comes in.
Thanks for the breakdown on this. Very interesting infor.
I realized the equipment issues with my lawnmower recently. I had to maintain the lawnmower in order to maintain my house. Then you have to maintain the tools that maintain the lawn mower that maintains your house.
It's a spiral of complexity.
I realized the equipment issues with my lawnmower recently. I had to maintain the lawnmower in order to maintain my house. Then you have to maintain the tools that maintain the lawn mower that maintains your house.
It's a spiral of complexity.
Couple of questions on behalf of some friends who are dabbling with produce on their property:
1) I have heard about how tremendously troublesome deer are, but have also heard good things about the "impossible to purchase in quantities less than a ton" Dippel's Oil ... has that worked at all for you?
2) So the rodents are burrowing under the raised beds and up to get to the roots? I didn't realize they would go that far down. How far down are the "walls" of the raised beds?
1) I have heard about how tremendously troublesome deer are, but have also heard good things about the "impossible to purchase in quantities less than a ton" Dippel's Oil ... has that worked at all for you?
2) So the rodents are burrowing under the raised beds and up to get to the roots? I didn't realize they would go that far down. How far down are the "walls" of the raised beds?
I will look into that, I have not heard of it. The problem with a lot of sprays is that they need applied on a regular basis.
Our raised beds contain about 15 inches of soil. The rodents burrow up from the bottom. You can't see them, but there are tunnels all through there. I've thought about putting hardware cloth on the bottom, but again I'm back to how much do I want to spent in order to make growing produce even more expensive.
One other thing I forgot to mention is that you need to be proficient with a gun. A .17 or .410 is adequate. Racoons, are my nemesis. If they get in a coop, they will kill a crap top of chickens and only eat the heads off of them. We free range our chickens and have several small coops they go into at night which we close up. I'm a light sleeper and can hear the racoons drop down on the roofs from the trees. We need the trees and bushes to protect the chickens from the hawks and eagles. Owls are another more minor problem as are the coyotes. Foxes as well. Having good dogs helps a lot.
Also, for the love of god avoid Guinea fowl. They have the survival instincts of a brick. They are also very loud. We bought 30 as an experiment and sold them off to a chef as soon as we could. There were only 12 left at that point.
Our raised beds contain about 15 inches of soil. The rodents burrow up from the bottom. You can't see them, but there are tunnels all through there. I've thought about putting hardware cloth on the bottom, but again I'm back to how much do I want to spent in order to make growing produce even more expensive.
One other thing I forgot to mention is that you need to be proficient with a gun. A .17 or .410 is adequate. Racoons, are my nemesis. If they get in a coop, they will kill a crap top of chickens and only eat the heads off of them. We free range our chickens and have several small coops they go into at night which we close up. I'm a light sleeper and can hear the racoons drop down on the roofs from the trees. We need the trees and bushes to protect the chickens from the hawks and eagles. Owls are another more minor problem as are the coyotes. Foxes as well. Having good dogs helps a lot.
Also, for the love of god avoid Guinea fowl. They have the survival instincts of a brick. They are also very loud. We bought 30 as an experiment and sold them off to a chef as soon as we could. There were only 12 left at that point.
We have 10-acres and have similar problems.
The amount of time and physical labor to get anything done is crazy. We have rodent problems, too, and our collection of six-towed barn cats do the best they can. Chickens do an amazing job on rodents, BTW. Chicken and duck eggs fresh from the farm are amazing.
We had an opossum get into the barn last night and killed some of our ducks. Normally these aren't hard to get rid of but this one was very aggressive and I had to shoot it. Earlier in the year it was raccoons and they were able to break into a cage and do an amazing amount of carnage.
Bugs got to our pear and apple trees this year before we did so that was a bust.
I've been trying to get bees going but mites are killing everything.
Oh, back-hoes. Mine is new but even new farm equipment has problems. I cut the end off one of my fingers working on our tractor/back-hoe earlier in the year. Which is fun since my day job is software.
So, yeah, farming isn't for the faint of heart.
The amount of time and physical labor to get anything done is crazy. We have rodent problems, too, and our collection of six-towed barn cats do the best they can. Chickens do an amazing job on rodents, BTW. Chicken and duck eggs fresh from the farm are amazing.
We had an opossum get into the barn last night and killed some of our ducks. Normally these aren't hard to get rid of but this one was very aggressive and I had to shoot it. Earlier in the year it was raccoons and they were able to break into a cage and do an amazing amount of carnage.
Bugs got to our pear and apple trees this year before we did so that was a bust.
I've been trying to get bees going but mites are killing everything.
Oh, back-hoes. Mine is new but even new farm equipment has problems. I cut the end off one of my fingers working on our tractor/back-hoe earlier in the year. Which is fun since my day job is software.
So, yeah, farming isn't for the faint of heart.
Can you get (or make) raised beds with a floor under them? That should keep the rodents from being able to tunnel. (Unless they can chew through the floor...)
I've thought about raised beds on stilts like houses at the beach. I hasn't made it past the thought process though.
Do you think a small robot that is like an extension of yourself help you in a small farm?
I am working on a small acreage/homesteader farm robot. It is not sensors or measuring nitrogen in soil etc. but it’s suitable for replacing 10-15 man hours/week (a seasonal part timer I usually have to employ) for a 1-5 acres farm. Small acreage = sub 100 acres in California. But the first package deal will be for homesteaders and also starting with medicinal herb co-op.
I am working on a small acreage/homesteader farm robot. It is not sensors or measuring nitrogen in soil etc. but it’s suitable for replacing 10-15 man hours/week (a seasonal part timer I usually have to employ) for a 1-5 acres farm. Small acreage = sub 100 acres in California. But the first package deal will be for homesteaders and also starting with medicinal herb co-op.
Yes, Richard Perkins knows and has done a lot of good stuff over years in this space, at his permaculture mixed farm in Sweden. I mentioned him and a few other successful people in the regen ag space, like Gabe Brown and Geoff Lawton, with brief descriptions, in the recent thread about a long-running no-till no-herbicide farm here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24827234
Edit: Also, Aanandaa Farms, started and run by a couple of ex-city-job professionals, the Guptas, in the Morni hills near Chandigarh, Punjab, is another good example of success, this one in India, although there are many others in India as well. They too have good instructive videos about starting and runnning a small-scale permaculture farm on YouTube. I believe they are starting a PDC (Permaculture Design Certificate) course in the near future too, which may be a combination of online, and learning time on their farm.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24827234
Edit: Also, Aanandaa Farms, started and run by a couple of ex-city-job professionals, the Guptas, in the Morni hills near Chandigarh, Punjab, is another good example of success, this one in India, although there are many others in India as well. They too have good instructive videos about starting and runnning a small-scale permaculture farm on YouTube. I believe they are starting a PDC (Permaculture Design Certificate) course in the near future too, which may be a combination of online, and learning time on their farm.
Another well-known long-running (20+ years) successful permaculture / regen ag farm in India is Krishna McKenzie's Solitude Farm, Auroville, Tamil Nadu. Again, mixed crops, herbs, fruit and other trees, multi-layer. On-site farm cafe with raw / local / vegan food. They also know well about and use local edible weeds as food, further reducing work and increasing efficiency - no need to even plant them, let alone cultivate! He has a video or two about that too, along with Nina Sengupta, who wrote the book Edible Weeds of the Auroville Region. He also does talks, local outreach and education, and has a good video channel on YouTube about it all.
Mentioned it before too, in that same recent thread:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24876047
Mentioned it before too, in that same recent thread:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24876047
For anyone interested, Richard Perkins has an annual Regenerative Agriculture Masterclass, which is coming up in the near future. Sign up here to be notified of details:
https://regenerativeagricultureonlinecourse.com/
Just got that link from his email newsletter, which I subscribe to.
https://regenerativeagricultureonlinecourse.com/
Just got that link from his email newsletter, which I subscribe to.
How much land does one need to become self sufficient? Let's assume that means producing enough biomass to generate the resources necessary to have a surplus of food or money.
It depends on your growing zone but 10 acres is typically suggested.
(There are many opinions so I don’t put one particular source here.)
(There are many opinions so I don’t put one particular source here.)
It depends on how you use it, but at least a couple of acres. Potatoes are quite efficient, and rabbits and chickens can pretty much live off left-overs and patches of land that are otherwise unused. That would be a rather boring existence, though.
3-4 acres should be more than enough for the basics for a _small_ family, if you accept to buy the more exotic items from a store, and that you will probably never grow fat.
3-4 acres should be more than enough for the basics for a _small_ family, if you accept to buy the more exotic items from a store, and that you will probably never grow fat.
It's kind of a 'how long is a piece of string' question. You could probably do it on 2-3 acres but you're going to be making sacrifices that you wouldn't need to if you had 10-20.
The typical term is 'homesteading' and there are tons of resources for it. My aunt does it and is part of a collective and it's nearly a full time job.
The typical term is 'homesteading' and there are tons of resources for it. My aunt does it and is part of a collective and it's nearly a full time job.
Thanks to the collapse of the USSR and with help of our inept corrupt leaders (Gorbachev and Yeltsin and their US "friends") destroying all the industry and economy, millions of ex-soviet citizens know exactly how hard it is to become self sufficient.
I worked really hard on our family "farm" all my childhood and that's maybe the only thing that helped us survive. Although we did experience hunger from time to time.
It's not even a question of land, it's a question of how much work you can put into that land. It's a backbreaking work every day.
It's a good option if society collapses and there's no other option to survive. Otherwise, it's just not worth it. Millions of current Russia population hate working on the land because they already have that inoculation from 90s.
I worked really hard on our family "farm" all my childhood and that's maybe the only thing that helped us survive. Although we did experience hunger from time to time.
It's not even a question of land, it's a question of how much work you can put into that land. It's a backbreaking work every day.
It's a good option if society collapses and there's no other option to survive. Otherwise, it's just not worth it. Millions of current Russia population hate working on the land because they already have that inoculation from 90s.
I think most are targeting the supermarket supported form, where you grow some vegetables and spices on your own. Russia is probably hard land, because most regions have long winters.
Our agriculture (Ger) is completely dependent on workers from abroad. If you send the average office worker on a field, he will probably collapse after a day or two.
Friends of mine have some chickens and that alone causes so much work everyday... They give away the eggs which is nice for us. Selling them wouldn't even pay for the fuel to transport them anywhere. Same with most other kinds of produce.
Our agriculture (Ger) is completely dependent on workers from abroad. If you send the average office worker on a field, he will probably collapse after a day or two.
Friends of mine have some chickens and that alone causes so much work everyday... They give away the eggs which is nice for us. Selling them wouldn't even pay for the fuel to transport them anywhere. Same with most other kinds of produce.
> supermarket supported form
"Self sufficient" where you buy things from the supermarket is just greenwashing cosplay. Just like a "self driving" car where you can't take your hands off the steering wheel.
"Self sufficient" where you buy things from the supermarket is just greenwashing cosplay. Just like a "self driving" car where you can't take your hands off the steering wheel.
It is, but self sufficiency is nearly impossible. To pay for tools and machines, electricity and water you would need to sell parts of your produce. That is hard if you do not scale up to a level to compete with highly advanced industrial agriculture.
Of course you could scrap the electricity and get your water from the nearest river, but I doubt many people would want to put up with that.
Of course you could scrap the electricity and get your water from the nearest river, but I doubt many people would want to put up with that.
Self sufficiency is possible if you are given 5-10 acres with no taxes. Even then eventually you will need to trade your animals with someone else just so your breeding stock doesn't get inbred too much.
Most people wouldn't want true self sufficiency if they could have it. I admire people who "go into the woods" for years (they are generally more hunter/gathers than farmers); but even as introverted as I am, I still like to have a larger group of people around me.
Most people wouldn't want true self sufficiency if they could have it. I admire people who "go into the woods" for years (they are generally more hunter/gathers than farmers); but even as introverted as I am, I still like to have a larger group of people around me.
> Self sufficiency is possible if you are given 5-10 acres with no taxes.
Where do you get the iron for your implements? Or are you going to use wooden hoes?
Where do you get medicine, when you need it?
Where do you get clothes?
Et cetera.
Where do you get the iron for your implements? Or are you going to use wooden hoes?
Where do you get medicine, when you need it?
Where do you get clothes?
Et cetera.
Wooden hoes. No modern medicine either. You have to make sacrifices for true self sufficiency.
For clothing, you grow it. Between Flax, wool, furs, and cotton you can grow something anywhere (except near the poles). Having to grow clothing and shelter more than doubles your needed land area in some places.
For clothing, you grow it. Between Flax, wool, furs, and cotton you can grow something anywhere (except near the poles). Having to grow clothing and shelter more than doubles your needed land area in some places.
OK, but then, how do you make your wooden hoes? With wooden tools? Wooden knives and saws? How do you sew your clothes? With wooden needles? Sooner or later, don't you need some metal somewhere? If you don't have it, aren't you essentially living a Stone Age existence?
pretty much stone age. Anything more than that depends on civilization. Even stone age depended on civilization for the most part.
Well also Russia is not such a nice environment to grow land... cold winters and hot summers - it must be hard be a peasant there!
Russia is huge and USSR was even bigger. I didn't specify where I was born (on a southern border). The climate is very good for agriculture.
Sill it requires a lot of work. And I doubt that it is possible to be 100% self-sufficient.
There're many things farmer needs that are produced by other people. From tools like shovels to water pumps to animal fodder (which is also very expensive).
It's a nice thing to try though, to prepare oneself for some nasty events. When COVID-19 started I was thinking that if the world comes to an end, at least I'll be able to survive somewhat longer than others with my skills. I know how to grow my food. Didn't do it for a long time, but it's hard to forget the basics.
Sill it requires a lot of work. And I doubt that it is possible to be 100% self-sufficient.
There're many things farmer needs that are produced by other people. From tools like shovels to water pumps to animal fodder (which is also very expensive).
It's a nice thing to try though, to prepare oneself for some nasty events. When COVID-19 started I was thinking that if the world comes to an end, at least I'll be able to survive somewhat longer than others with my skills. I know how to grow my food. Didn't do it for a long time, but it's hard to forget the basics.
Indoor hydroponics. No question at all. It’s the only way to be self sufficient in a harsh climate.
I prefer to aim for community sufficient, rather than self sufficient. You probably won't do a good job of being entirely self sufficient. A small healthy community could be, or almost.
Historical evidence shows this to be factual.
Although not at present-day population levels.
My relatives who run a farm (some tens of cows, pigs, chickens, various crops for sale and food) do it on I believe around 25 acres of farmland plus a few acres of forest (for firewood). They are able to sustain a family of 5 people (3 grown ups, 2 school age kids) this way, plus hire a few seasonal/part time workers.
It does require quite a bit of machinery though- several tractors plus all the attachments (plowing, harvesting, cutting etc).
It does require quite a bit of machinery though- several tractors plus all the attachments (plowing, harvesting, cutting etc).
A quarter of an acre will give you plenty of food to fill multiple freezers for the year. Some vegetables have a very high yield (potato, tomato, carots). Hens/eggs also have a very good yield, most farms used to have hens.
It's nowhere near self sufficiency though. The amount and the variety of things you eat today is tremendous and coming from many places, you're not going to cultivate a fraction of that at home.
If you're talking bare subsistence, 1-2 acres of wheat should be enough to feed a family in grain/bread.
It's nowhere near self sufficiency though. The amount and the variety of things you eat today is tremendous and coming from many places, you're not going to cultivate a fraction of that at home.
If you're talking bare subsistence, 1-2 acres of wheat should be enough to feed a family in grain/bread.
How much land does one need? Tolstoï wrote a short story with this title on this topic:
https://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/2738/
You're asking the wrong crowd. Go talk to an Amish about this, you'll get a lot better answers.
You might get better answers but probably not optimal ones? I imagine the avoidance of technology leads to inefficiencies that most people would want to avoid.
Maybe the permaculture people, or intentional communities that seek to be self-sufficient (as a community); perhaps kibbutzim hold useful knowledge here?
Maybe the permaculture people, or intentional communities that seek to be self-sufficient (as a community); perhaps kibbutzim hold useful knowledge here?
Amish do not avoid tech, they test it and see pro/cons and then they take a decision if it will get adopted or not. They have a lot of tech enthusiast that will try new tech and then the elders will decide to keep it or not. And they strive for self-sufficiency 100%.
Depends on which inefficiency you want to avoid. Do you want to not use modern machinery, or do you want to pay for modern machinery? Each approach has a cost, in different ways.
This question was addressed on HN recently with much talk of potatoes and how much yield one needs to survive. Might be worth searching.
1 acre per person not including oil and grain and fiber.
Also his latest book Regenerative Agriculture. Mostly composed of varied farm enterprises with financial details amd so on. Pick and choose the enterprises that appeal to you and work with your land... e.g. market garden, tree nursery, pastured eggs and mushroom cultivation.
https://www.regenerativeagriculturebook.com/
https://www.regenerativeagriculturebook.com/
People vastly underestimate how much work "simple" lifestyles are.
It's the same with van life. It sounds great in practice, but simple things like showering, defecating and preserving food become very difficult.
I suspect that with farming or homesteading, you forego things like financial safety and the ability to take vacations. I value those things a lot.
In my opinion, the best way out is a lifestyle business, or spaced out consulting gigs. Work all winter, play all summer. Alternatively, spend a few hours a week on your project, and the rest of your time doing what interests you.
This is what I do, and it made me realise a few things:
- I really like programming when it's not for someone else. It's what I end up doing the most with my free time.
- The biggest benefit is having so much free time to fill with things you enjoy. This probably isn't the case if you try to live off what you grow.
- I don't spend nearly as much time in the garage as I thought. Woodworking or motorcycle repair are hard, and the initial setbacks are extremely demotivating. You won't hit the ground running, so you better prepare for disappointment.
My initial dream was to work on motorcycles all day, but I can barely find the courage to work on my daily ride, let alone the 40 year old Honda gumption trap that's spread all over the shelves. It's hard to jump from something you're proficient at to something that you completely suck at. I'm just glad that my life doesn't depend on it.
It's the same with van life. It sounds great in practice, but simple things like showering, defecating and preserving food become very difficult.
I suspect that with farming or homesteading, you forego things like financial safety and the ability to take vacations. I value those things a lot.
In my opinion, the best way out is a lifestyle business, or spaced out consulting gigs. Work all winter, play all summer. Alternatively, spend a few hours a week on your project, and the rest of your time doing what interests you.
This is what I do, and it made me realise a few things:
- I really like programming when it's not for someone else. It's what I end up doing the most with my free time.
- The biggest benefit is having so much free time to fill with things you enjoy. This probably isn't the case if you try to live off what you grow.
- I don't spend nearly as much time in the garage as I thought. Woodworking or motorcycle repair are hard, and the initial setbacks are extremely demotivating. You won't hit the ground running, so you better prepare for disappointment.
My initial dream was to work on motorcycles all day, but I can barely find the courage to work on my daily ride, let alone the 40 year old Honda gumption trap that's spread all over the shelves. It's hard to jump from something you're proficient at to something that you completely suck at. I'm just glad that my life doesn't depend on it.
> Woodworking or motorcycle repair are hard, and the initial setbacks are extremely demotivating.
Out of curiosity, then how did you become a good software engineer? Doesn't programming follow that exact trajectory?
Excellent comment btw.
Out of curiosity, then how did you become a good software engineer? Doesn't programming follow that exact trajectory?
Excellent comment btw.
In wood working and software time is used by doing it. If you program software wrong you lose time by having to do it again. In woodworking you lose both time and materials.
Also, I suspect many of us here "spent" time learning programming as children/teenagers and honed it as early twenty-somethings.
At those stages of life time is essentially free and unlimited. You can easily pull allnighters and 40 hour hacking weekends and 80 hour weeks - and you do it because it's exciting and fun, and it has only very minor opportunity costs - you might miss a school or college assignment deadline, or a few shifts at your minimum wage part time job. Your bedroom at your parents house or you college dorm is paid for already (even if just by usurious student loans).
Once you get to the "disillusioned with the damned tech industry" stage of your life though, you have responsibilities and rent/loans/bills to pay and probably family you need/want to spend time with and a circle of friends who're in the same stage of life who can't on zero notice order in pizza and mountain dew and hack from 6pm on Friday thru to midnight Sunday catching only naps on the couch as needed.
I reckon there's almost as much of a hill to climb for a "woodworker since junior high" looking at programming as a way out of a woodworking career they've become jaded with - as there is for a thirty-something software engineer dreaming of building timber boats for a living instead of being part of "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads." -- Jeff Hammerbacher
(But yeah, you don't need to buy new timber when you accidentally "move fast and break things" as a programmer. On the other hand, at least the tools you buy as a woodworker will still work and be useful in a decade or century's time...)
At those stages of life time is essentially free and unlimited. You can easily pull allnighters and 40 hour hacking weekends and 80 hour weeks - and you do it because it's exciting and fun, and it has only very minor opportunity costs - you might miss a school or college assignment deadline, or a few shifts at your minimum wage part time job. Your bedroom at your parents house or you college dorm is paid for already (even if just by usurious student loans).
Once you get to the "disillusioned with the damned tech industry" stage of your life though, you have responsibilities and rent/loans/bills to pay and probably family you need/want to spend time with and a circle of friends who're in the same stage of life who can't on zero notice order in pizza and mountain dew and hack from 6pm on Friday thru to midnight Sunday catching only naps on the couch as needed.
I reckon there's almost as much of a hill to climb for a "woodworker since junior high" looking at programming as a way out of a woodworking career they've become jaded with - as there is for a thirty-something software engineer dreaming of building timber boats for a living instead of being part of "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads." -- Jeff Hammerbacher
(But yeah, you don't need to buy new timber when you accidentally "move fast and break things" as a programmer. On the other hand, at least the tools you buy as a woodworker will still work and be useful in a decade or century's time...)
Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Thanks pal.
I have one simple secret: start 15 years ago
> Woodworking or motorcycle repair are hard, and the initial setbacks are extremely demotivating. You won't hit the ground running, so you better prepare for disappointment.
This mirrors my experience as well - also there is a dollar cost to each try, and no undo button, which puts more pressure on each attempt.
I still enjoy doing hobby woodworking, but it's not quite as zen in the beginning as I imagined.
This mirrors my experience as well - also there is a dollar cost to each try, and no undo button, which puts more pressure on each attempt.
I still enjoy doing hobby woodworking, but it's not quite as zen in the beginning as I imagined.
The joy of construction comes from the difficulty of combining design thinking with entrepreneurial financial prudence and first principles engineering to overcome obstacles that (often) arise. And then of course, translating these ideas into tangible functional art. It is very much like software engineering, but as you say ; the stakes much higher.
Every read Matthew Crawford? If you haven't you might enjoy his work. In particular, Shop Class as Soulcraft.
Isn't that kind of lifestyle more luck than anything? You stumble onto something people want. Nothing you can plan for or take direct steps towards.
> you forego things like financial safety and the ability to take vacations.
This sounds like there's a need for some kind of part-time deal.
* farm work share - maybe also called a kibbutz or commune - you can take vacations and share the ownership, work, and benefit
* farm-b-and-b - there's a regular owner keeping things on the rails but you can stay a week, eat fresh eggs and clean the barns, and then go home at the end
This sounds like there's a need for some kind of part-time deal.
* farm work share - maybe also called a kibbutz or commune - you can take vacations and share the ownership, work, and benefit
* farm-b-and-b - there's a regular owner keeping things on the rails but you can stay a week, eat fresh eggs and clean the barns, and then go home at the end
As labor markets reduce financial safety through job instability and push for hypercompetitiveness, I'm not sure farming is any different than most peoples' jobs in terms of leisure time or financial stability.
My grandparents and relatives farmed quite a bit and I helped during summers. It's not glamorous but its less stressful than most positions I've recently worked in and has more opportunity to take necessary breaks.
My grandparents and relatives farmed quite a bit and I helped during summers. It's not glamorous but its less stressful than most positions I've recently worked in and has more opportunity to take necessary breaks.
> It's the same with van life. It sounds great in practice, but simple things like showering, defecating and preserving food become very difficult.
I have to both agree and disagree. I've been living in my converted bus for about 3.5 years. It's harder and more complex than living in a fixed location but it depends a lot on the setup of your vehicle and how you use it.
If you have a low end conversion with no shower or toilet it's a lot more complex, especially in COVID times with limited access to public facilities.
If you have an RV or something like my bus with a full conversion it's not bad. I have to refill my fresh water every 2-3 weeks, that's it.
The hardest part is dealing with repairs. Typically when something in your home needs repair you don't have to move out.
I have to both agree and disagree. I've been living in my converted bus for about 3.5 years. It's harder and more complex than living in a fixed location but it depends a lot on the setup of your vehicle and how you use it.
If you have a low end conversion with no shower or toilet it's a lot more complex, especially in COVID times with limited access to public facilities.
If you have an RV or something like my bus with a full conversion it's not bad. I have to refill my fresh water every 2-3 weeks, that's it.
The hardest part is dealing with repairs. Typically when something in your home needs repair you don't have to move out.
Are mobile mechanics not a thing for RV?
They are an option but I've never used one. I've been fortunate to only have my bus need overnight service once. I got a hotel room.
Vacations. My father once said that a distant relative in Europe should come and visit the US. His remark was "Who will feed the cows?"
My friend Travis Corcoran recently ran a very successful Kickstarter — $95k+ raised — for a book called Escape the City which is a practical guide to the non-fantasy version of this dream.
> Seven years ago I moved from the city to a farm where I taught myself to garden, raise animals & cook "farm to table". I show you how.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tjic/escape-the-city-a-...
If you're interested there's a button on the Kickstarter page to buy copies via BackerKit. IIRC you get immediate access to a GitHub repo with most of the book already in it, although don't quote me on that.
> Seven years ago I moved from the city to a farm where I taught myself to garden, raise animals & cook "farm to table". I show you how.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tjic/escape-the-city-a-...
If you're interested there's a button on the Kickstarter page to buy copies via BackerKit. IIRC you get immediate access to a GitHub repo with most of the book already in it, although don't quote me on that.
I saw his interview on justin murphy's podcast - he seems like a super interesting guy! Glad to hear the book is doing well
thanks! I've placed an order
Why would someone need 90K to write a book while already having a profession?
Interviewing three people is also apparently worth 5K.
And the book's photos are black & white ...
Interviewing three people is also apparently worth 5K.
And the book's photos are black & white ...
For the same reason as raising a billion dollars of series A funding: it's not about what you need it's about what people will give you.
Despite all the defensive language, kickstarters are really pre-sales. 90k sales for a book is very respectable but not overwhelming. It means he's found a great market for this book.
Despite all the defensive language, kickstarters are really pre-sales. 90k sales for a book is very respectable but not overwhelming. It means he's found a great market for this book.
To determine whether there is a market for the book, not via soft commits like "interest" but with hard commits like pre-sales
Author of "Escape the City" here.
I didn't "need" $90k to write the book.
I chose to sell copies of a book, at typical book prices. Thousands of people chose to buy the book. That's where the $90k number comes from.
> And the book's photos are black & white ...
"The food is terrible...and the portions are so small".
The wonderful thing about the free market is that those who want to buy a thing can, and those who don't, need not.
Cheers!
I didn't "need" $90k to write the book.
I chose to sell copies of a book, at typical book prices. Thousands of people chose to buy the book. That's where the $90k number comes from.
> And the book's photos are black & white ...
"The food is terrible...and the portions are so small".
The wonderful thing about the free market is that those who want to buy a thing can, and those who don't, need not.
Cheers!
> I chose to sell copies of a book, at typical book prices.
If we want to be technical you weren't selling copies of a book, you were selling the promise of finished copies of a book.
> "The food is terrible...and the portions are so small".
It's great to see how you take valid criticism.
> The wonderful thing about the free market is that those who want to buy a thing can, and those who don't, need not.
Absolutely correct. However, that doesn't prevent me from expressing valid criticism.
But good on you for writing this book. I think it's a very interesting topic and will probably buy a copy.
I just wish people were a bit more honest about their goals sometimes.
If we want to be technical you weren't selling copies of a book, you were selling the promise of finished copies of a book.
> "The food is terrible...and the portions are so small".
It's great to see how you take valid criticism.
> The wonderful thing about the free market is that those who want to buy a thing can, and those who don't, need not.
Absolutely correct. However, that doesn't prevent me from expressing valid criticism.
But good on you for writing this book. I think it's a very interesting topic and will probably buy a copy.
I just wish people were a bit more honest about their goals sometimes.
Comments like this are why I love HN. Will order.
Always good to look at "How To" books with a healthy dose of skepticism. Probably more relevant to the "get rich quick" type books, because if they got rich quick, why would they be selling a book to give away their secrets?
Although I find things like farming and agriculture and outdoors to have a less capitalistic shade and more of a genuine "i want to help people achieve their goals and not die" shade.
Although I find things like farming and agriculture and outdoors to have a less capitalistic shade and more of a genuine "i want to help people achieve their goals and not die" shade.
This is an excellent point @bluntfang.
I'll be very upfront: homesteading is a money losing proposition. It's a consumption good - it costs more than any (monetary) profit it brings.
And my writing about it is ALSO money losing. I'm a coder. When I write and sell novels, the opportunity cost is huge - at an hourly rate, I lose about 90% of what I could otherwise be making coding.
Writing about homesteading is much better - I only lose about 50% of what I could otherwise be making.
I write because (a) I am more driven to create and share my ideas with people than I am to make a marginal dollar, (b) I am ideologically in favor of people moving to the countryside and living a different lifestyle, so writing is an ideological / political choice.
I'll be very upfront: homesteading is a money losing proposition. It's a consumption good - it costs more than any (monetary) profit it brings.
And my writing about it is ALSO money losing. I'm a coder. When I write and sell novels, the opportunity cost is huge - at an hourly rate, I lose about 90% of what I could otherwise be making coding.
Writing about homesteading is much better - I only lose about 50% of what I could otherwise be making.
I write because (a) I am more driven to create and share my ideas with people than I am to make a marginal dollar, (b) I am ideologically in favor of people moving to the countryside and living a different lifestyle, so writing is an ideological / political choice.
The kickstarter was for 2K, which seems like a reasonable "minimum sales" target to start a printing run. The fact that 90K was raised seems to prove there is demand for that kind of book.
I always laugh when someone who has never worked on a farm talks about buying one. Most farming is hard work, much harder than an office job. And most small farms do not make much money, especially if you don't know what you're doing.
If you're thinking about it go get a job on one first before you buy anything.
If you're thinking about it go get a job on one first before you buy anything.
I know some farmers and they all have one thing in common: they work around the clock, 7 days a week. No days off or vacations. Their farms might be worth millions, but it's also both their home and their job.
Also, a lot of people don't get that a farm (anything other than subsistence farming) is a business. It requires careful long term planning, crop rotation, dealing with buyers, collectives, auctions, risk mitigation and pricing. The farmers I know are all extremely proficient with spreadsheet software and most of them attended the Agricultural University two towns from here. Farmers are often regarded as a bit simplistic country boys, but the opposite is true.
I don't envy them.
Also, a lot of people don't get that a farm (anything other than subsistence farming) is a business. It requires careful long term planning, crop rotation, dealing with buyers, collectives, auctions, risk mitigation and pricing. The farmers I know are all extremely proficient with spreadsheet software and most of them attended the Agricultural University two towns from here. Farmers are often regarded as a bit simplistic country boys, but the opposite is true.
I don't envy them.
[deleted]
I've known a lot of farmers over the years and they always struck me as some of the most hard nosed and astute businessmen I've ever met.
Edit: Having done a bit of both (and a lot of family in both areas) I'd rather be a fisherman than a farmer and I really don't want to be a fisherman!
Edit: Having done a bit of both (and a lot of family in both areas) I'd rather be a fisherman than a farmer and I really don't want to be a fisherman!
Having done both, I'd rather be a farmer than a fisherman in my community. Imagine catching fish with your bare hands or a flimsy net - yep, that hard.
My experience was on large highly mechanised trawlers in the North Sea - sleeping for two or three hours then gutting fish for a few hours then eat and sleep and repeat for best part of 5 days....
NB The "highly mechanised" part just adds to the fear factor - winches and other heavy equipment are scary enough at the best of times, but when the sea is rough, its dark they are (for me) terrifying.
Edit: This was 30 years ago...
NB The "highly mechanised" part just adds to the fear factor - winches and other heavy equipment are scary enough at the best of times, but when the sea is rough, its dark they are (for me) terrifying.
Edit: This was 30 years ago...
In Italy we have an old saying:
"La terra è bassa."
(translates to "the earth is low" implying that to get food out of it you have to kneel and bend a lot, i.e. it is hard, hard, backbreaking work)
With animals, it is (IMHO) even harder, another saying (Tuscany) goes like:
"Le bestie non conoscono feste comandate"
(translates to "animals know nothing about holidays", it is a 7 day a week (from dawn to sunset) 365 days a year job)
"La terra è bassa."
(translates to "the earth is low" implying that to get food out of it you have to kneel and bend a lot, i.e. it is hard, hard, backbreaking work)
With animals, it is (IMHO) even harder, another saying (Tuscany) goes like:
"Le bestie non conoscono feste comandate"
(translates to "animals know nothing about holidays", it is a 7 day a week (from dawn to sunset) 365 days a year job)
My grandad was a small farmer in South Italy, and my parents used to curate the land they inherited (and some land they bought on their own).
Yup, it's a full time job, the land doesn't go on vacation.
Yes it can give enormous satisfaction. Every time I'm at the store buying fruit I sigh at how much fruits our grandad used to bring home, for free, it was way better than the fruit I guy at the grocery stores, and it was the surplus from the sales...
Yup, it's a full time job, the land doesn't go on vacation.
Yes it can give enormous satisfaction. Every time I'm at the store buying fruit I sigh at how much fruits our grandad used to bring home, for free, it was way better than the fruit I guy at the grocery stores, and it was the surplus from the sales...
Only the ones left in business. The rest are long gone as business savy became just as important as hard work.
I can confirm the hard work part. Up before the sun, down long after it leaves. It’s not a job, it’s a life. I worked on a farm for a summer when I was 19. I’m still ripped from it, you’ll be physically fit in no time. If you want to buy a farm for the purpose of profit, you’ll fail immediately. If you want to buy a farm to learn to farm (profits will come when you can actually grow in bulk) then dive in. There’s also “alternative” farms that maximize vertical space vs acreage. To reiterate the last sentence, go get a job on a farm for watermelon season and ask yourself if you can do that everyday for 20+ years.
(Kennedy Farms in Stony Creek, VA if you’re curious).
(Kennedy Farms in Stony Creek, VA if you’re curious).
There's the other big that gardeners (especially home covid gardeners) forget: almost nothing you want to grow on your "coupla acres" has enough calories to sustain you. Potatoes are probably the only exception. Everything else--beans, wheat, corn--is a pain to grow and process, especially at a small scale.
The sweet spot is when you have passions about products, expensive things or impractical crops to scale... We have a homestead with acreage in Hawaii. Chickens and eggs are zero effort. We don't even need to feed them, just collect the eggs. We grow heirloom tomatoes in the greenhouse because they are crazy expensive to ship from the mainland and we love them. Likewise, we also grow a lot of white pineapples because they are amazing, but not commercially viable to ship... There are lots of small scale / high margin areas to work in, you just need to explore and find them. You won't build a business empire, but you can find a lot of satisfaction.
To think if the whole community could do this you could have more sustainability and variety and setup local farmers markets to shop local-to-table. Granted in Hawaii you have finite land to work with, but remember engineering is hard at work to figure out vertical eco-friendly hydroponic farming to increase those yields per acre at the expense of up front investment in the infrastructure.
I want to emphasize the last bit though about “building an empire”. It depends on what your metric is. You can be rich and be broke. You can be poor but wealthy. The empire here would be in community and not in money. Giving back by selling your produce, locally, and helping the community. That, is satisfaction. On top of the satisfaction you have from growing your own food of course.
I want to emphasize the last bit though about “building an empire”. It depends on what your metric is. You can be rich and be broke. You can be poor but wealthy. The empire here would be in community and not in money. Giving back by selling your produce, locally, and helping the community. That, is satisfaction. On top of the satisfaction you have from growing your own food of course.
> To think if the whole community could do this you could have more sustainability and variety and setup local farmers markets to shop local-to-table.
I go to a farmers' market in the Bay Area. It draws farmers from a 100-150 mile radius. Being California, you get produce from a lot of different climates; some things need a cool coastal climate, some need the heat of the central valley. You also see the season of crops move. Things usually start in the south where it's a bit warmer, and the season (and vendors carrying) that crop moves north over the next few months.
The community approach can really only get you some amount of diversity in produce that does well in your area, and maybe a bit from the soil type. Talk to anyone who's grown squash will tell you there's a month where their one plant has more squash than they know what to do with. The problem is everyone in the community has the same squash surplus at the same time.
I appreciate the idea, I just think that produce production will always tent towards hobbyists and professionals because of economies of scale.
I go to a farmers' market in the Bay Area. It draws farmers from a 100-150 mile radius. Being California, you get produce from a lot of different climates; some things need a cool coastal climate, some need the heat of the central valley. You also see the season of crops move. Things usually start in the south where it's a bit warmer, and the season (and vendors carrying) that crop moves north over the next few months.
The community approach can really only get you some amount of diversity in produce that does well in your area, and maybe a bit from the soil type. Talk to anyone who's grown squash will tell you there's a month where their one plant has more squash than they know what to do with. The problem is everyone in the community has the same squash surplus at the same time.
I appreciate the idea, I just think that produce production will always tent towards hobbyists and professionals because of economies of scale.
Potatoes and eggs are a reasonable project for starting. Fruits need some planification, but are also a reasonable goal at long term. Veggies, tomatoes, milk, soft fruits, any meat... even chicken meat, are more hard and need lots of planification.
I think if you're not aiming to be fully self-sustaining it makes a lot of sense to buy things like these and focus on growing fresh fruits and vegetables. From a sustainability perspective beans/wheat/corn and to some extent potatoes are fairly easy to store, making them suitable for central/slow processing. I don't have numbers on this but my sense is that a lot of the resource usage of our agricultural system is due to perishables - food that needs to be cooled, that gets thrown away if no-one buys it on time, that's easy to damage in transportation, and that has high water content (making it heavy to transport).
Can confirm - I tried growing all sorts of things in an awful north-facing garden with varied success but am now mostly focusing on two things - leaf vegetables and small fruit. Chard and raspberries are my primary outputs, and being able to go out and pick a handful of raspberries for dessert is a way superior experience to buying them - better taste, more varieties, better quality, and they store longer than store-bought. Same thing with leaf vegetables - unless I buy frozen (which I still do in winter) you can't get decent spinach or chard outside the peak of the season. They store for months on the plant though unless temperatures get too hot, so I can just pick as much as I need for a meal and not worry about spoilage.
Millets. And lentils. Calorie and nutrient dense.
Farming is easy money [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDTiFkXgEE
Funny video. He didn't mention getting the land, barns and equipment for free too. Just inherit and profit!
As a friend of mine put it, the shear breadth of knowledge you need to break even is astounding. Depending on scale and focus area, they'll include:
* Accounting (cost of production, allocating overhead expenses, cash flow analysis, financing terms and outcomes)
* Efficiency calculations and cost benefit analysis for equipment comparison
* Buying and selling commodities contracts
* Marketing your product (locking in the price optimally)
* Biology for dealing with animals and anything you plant
* Ever changing government subsidies and regulations
* Maintenance, repair, and troubleshooting of equipment. This helps keep you productive when the weather is good and the vendor techs are busy. Welding is really handy.
If you mess a couple of those up to a moderate degree, you'll probably lose gobs of money. Do it too bad or for too long and you'll be visiting my dad or brother for a bankruptcy.
* Accounting (cost of production, allocating overhead expenses, cash flow analysis, financing terms and outcomes)
* Efficiency calculations and cost benefit analysis for equipment comparison
* Buying and selling commodities contracts
* Marketing your product (locking in the price optimally)
* Biology for dealing with animals and anything you plant
* Ever changing government subsidies and regulations
* Maintenance, repair, and troubleshooting of equipment. This helps keep you productive when the weather is good and the vendor techs are busy. Welding is really handy.
If you mess a couple of those up to a moderate degree, you'll probably lose gobs of money. Do it too bad or for too long and you'll be visiting my dad or brother for a bankruptcy.
I don't know how things are in your jurisdiction, but here in Europe making a profit on farming just isn't possible. This sector lives and dies by subsidies.
You're going to have a cash crop or market the hell out of your product, both seem opposite to the goal of starting the farm in the first place.
You're going to have a cash crop or market the hell out of your product, both seem opposite to the goal of starting the farm in the first place.
Depends on which farm sector.
Part of my family is into flowers. I can tell you that flowers are like gold. Almost every flower farmer in our region is loaded.
Lowest tier for farming are traditional crops. You need lots of acres and good machines to get efficient en break-even. Only a few manage, but most do not.
I would probably focus on farm tech. Automated greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers etc is for example big business. If done right you can be 10-50 times more profitable per square feet than a outside potato field.
100k isn't enough to start something like that. More in the line of 5-10m start capital needed.
I
I
Your other comments reveal you're living in The Netherlands. The farming sector there is massively subsidized both via EU and local funds. Now during COVID-19 the state is bankrolling up to 70% of the revenue of the horticulture industry[1].
And that's before you get into all the indirect subsidies like zoning, fuel subsidies for industrial use etc. that are largely aimed at subsidizing farmers.
1. https://www.arc2020.eu/flower-power-commission-somehow-appro...
And that's before you get into all the indirect subsidies like zoning, fuel subsidies for industrial use etc. that are largely aimed at subsidizing farmers.
1. https://www.arc2020.eu/flower-power-commission-somehow-appro...
My family make more profit renting an old workers cottage on the farm as an Airbnb than they get revenue from the entire organic diary operation.
Without the dairy operation I'd suspect they'd have less land, less beauty, less reason to live where they are - the workers cottage wouldn't be so charming if it were on the edge of a lifestyle block 15 minutes from the city. Don't discount the value of their investment!
Yeah, the Adam Smith, purely financially motivated thing to do would be to sell the cows and charming old barns, move out of the ancient manor farmhouse and make a fortune from renting that out as well.
But the life satisifaction of being a hotelier compared to someone who works the land and raises livestock would not be nearly the same.
But the life satisifaction of being a hotelier compared to someone who works the land and raises livestock would not be nearly the same.
It might depend on which crop to grow. I remember in KING CORN (2007), farmer can't make a profit without government subsidy.
Ironic that it came out during the largest Ag boom in the last century. Huge fortunes were made during that time. Sadly those tunes have ended, but this year is going to be good for some.
Farmers can make a profit without subsidies. However you might not want to live in that world: with less farmers food prices will go up - particularly in a bad year when large numbers of people in your city need to starve to death because farmers tried to raise only as much food as needed, and guessed wrong because of the bad weather the previous season.
I think it's pretty much the same in the US, even though it's sometimes less apparent. Look up the Reclamation Act of 1902: most of the West would not be cultivated without the huge public investment in irrigation which have never made any economic or ecological sense (growing alfalfa in the Colorado highlands for example).
What they're probably thinking of is buying land, which you can lease or pay to have tended. Getting into this market is understandably more difficult; if it was easy free money everybody'd be doing it.
A lot of land within a few hours of the Bay Area is pretty expensive because it's very productive, it's often bought with Bay Area money, and people pay a premium so they can "have some land." Oh, and you're competing with people with low taxes because of Prop. 13.
With land priced like that, especially when you lease it out, it's even harder to make money. If there's a house on the property and it's halfway close to a town, you might make more leasing the house than the property.
At least when people get into buying apartment buildings they're not competing with someone who will pay a premium so they have room for a horse and can watch the sunset over their field.
With land priced like that, especially when you lease it out, it's even harder to make money. If there's a house on the property and it's halfway close to a town, you might make more leasing the house than the property.
At least when people get into buying apartment buildings they're not competing with someone who will pay a premium so they have room for a horse and can watch the sunset over their field.
Or I see this a lot from people who live in an apartment with no yard or balcony who really just want a small garden.
[deleted]
So true.
However...
... all my grandparents were spry into their 80s and lived to their 90s. There was a an article awhile back that the most longed lived or healthy groups were New Jersey Asian females and South Dakota male farmers.
I’ve been at a desk for 20 years and I’m almost crippled.
The difference is the variety of work. Fix fence in the morning, do the manual stuff before it gets too hot. In the afternoon get in the ACed tractor (if you’re lucky). Get back in the house at 10pm. Maybe not till age midnight if the combine breaks, etc.
Lots of physical activity, lots of fresh veggies and a bit of fruit seems to be the recipe for a long healthy life. Wealth not likely or guaranteed.
For better or worse that life is economically impossible now.
However...
... all my grandparents were spry into their 80s and lived to their 90s. There was a an article awhile back that the most longed lived or healthy groups were New Jersey Asian females and South Dakota male farmers.
I’ve been at a desk for 20 years and I’m almost crippled.
The difference is the variety of work. Fix fence in the morning, do the manual stuff before it gets too hot. In the afternoon get in the ACed tractor (if you’re lucky). Get back in the house at 10pm. Maybe not till age midnight if the combine breaks, etc.
Lots of physical activity, lots of fresh veggies and a bit of fruit seems to be the recipe for a long healthy life. Wealth not likely or guaranteed.
For better or worse that life is economically impossible now.
It's up there with buying a restaurant as poor business decisions go.
I dunno about that, I'm in agriculture and I'm doing just fine
Exactly this. Been there, done that. I always joke that the only people who want to buy a farm are people who've never worked on one. I also joke to people that farming is really just a part-time job. Everyday you get to pick which 12 hours you are going to work!
“[I work part time.] There are huge chunks of time.. at night.. where I’m just asleep. For hours. It’s ridiculous.”
My way was to buy 80 acres and rent out half. The local farmer gets to amortize his equipment over a larger crop; I pay the property tax with the income (when there is any income).
Certainly it is a lot of work - bu if you're growing food for yourself and spend your days outside, why do you need to make much money?
Food in itself cost relatively in USA too. So with $400 a month you can eat all you want and spend your days outside doing nothing. But you need more than $400 a month, right? Same with farmers and people living in villages.
In the US, you need decent cashflow to pay for healthcare. You probably also need to save for natural disasters or injuries that disable you. And if you have kids to support, even more costs.
You need those cashflows to pay for healthcare anywhere. In Europe you get more subsidies if you can't pay your own, but modern healthcare is expensive and only possible in societies where the average person has a large cashflow. (Yes healthcare is more expensive in the US than similar levels of care in Europe, but it isn't the order of magnitude more that most people think)
I've been making roughly $10k a year for the last 4 years (so in fact below the tax free threshold), and I've got perfectly good healthcare in Canada. Same in Australia.
You have good healthcare because someone else is subsidizing your healthcare. If you were contributing your fair share to society you would have to earn more than that to live.
There are many reasons that a society may choose to subsidize someone who isn't contributing their fair share. I agree with some of those reasons, not others.
There are many reasons that a society may choose to subsidize someone who isn't contributing their fair share. I agree with some of those reasons, not others.
A friend had a farm and we plucked an onion out of the ground for a salad. That onion was so good, I could have eaten it like an apple.
Your body rewards you for eating fresh food and I think it's because it is really really good for you. Same with fresh air and a little sunshine.
So there's something to be said for growing food and spending time outside. I think it's what our bodies were designed for.
Your body rewards you for eating fresh food and I think it's because it is really really good for you. Same with fresh air and a little sunshine.
So there's something to be said for growing food and spending time outside. I think it's what our bodies were designed for.
remember to marry eva gabor before you purchase.
I wrote that. Thanks @happy-go-lucky for sharing that.
This is indeed an India based pov. And based on real life experiences and learnings over 4 years now at this farm. Lots more to learn and understand, surely. I'm sure there's some stuff that translates well across geography too, especially the patience bit.
Do want to see regenerative farming grow, because as it happens today is eventually a dead end.
This is indeed an India based pov. And based on real life experiences and learnings over 4 years now at this farm. Lots more to learn and understand, surely. I'm sure there's some stuff that translates well across geography too, especially the patience bit.
Do want to see regenerative farming grow, because as it happens today is eventually a dead end.
First of all kudos for sharing your wonderful experience. I must say geography also helped you a lot with your experience. Your experience would've been much different if your farm was in Bidar or Anantpur. I would love to hear more about your journey and keep sharing your tales with us!
> Your experience would've been much different if your farm was in Bidar or Anantpur.
I'm from the latter, own some ancestral land there. Here, we're always on the lookout for ways to counter the extreme aridity of the region. We know it's not easy and like asking the impossible.
I'm from the latter, own some ancestral land there. Here, we're always on the lookout for ways to counter the extreme aridity of the region. We know it's not easy and like asking the impossible.
Sameer Patil has effected a fairly amazing transformation at his farm somewhere up there I think. Take a look https://www.facebook.com/patilnaturefarms
Thanks for chiming in.
Sure I'll check out what they do and how they do it. I'm in the thick of it :)
Sure I'll check out what they do and how they do it. I'm in the thick of it :)
I have a YouTube channel which follows similar processes and I document the procedures I use for growing plant based foods on small scale in Connecticut, Agricultural Zone 6b.
Check out my latest video here: https://youtu.be/IAaBBjMFWEs
I'm trying to get to 1k subs to unlock mobile streaming so I can stream my garden chores to show the work involved. If you are into this stuff please subscribe, I look forward to answering your comments.
Check out my latest video here: https://youtu.be/IAaBBjMFWEs
I'm trying to get to 1k subs to unlock mobile streaming so I can stream my garden chores to show the work involved. If you are into this stuff please subscribe, I look forward to answering your comments.
Subscribed.
Why do you need subscribers? Do you want to be a farmer or a Youtuber? Do you want to live the dream or get rich by selling it?
As folks like Richard Perkins, Moreno, and others have made clear, you don't have to choose between those two options. Nothing wrong with having a small side income that generates interest in your farm and opens up a broader market to which to sell your products. Self-sufficient subsistence farming is unrealistic, but selling your vegetables and eggs to Yippies at retail prices is potentially a decent living.
What point is expertise, if you cannot share it?
I want to show people it's possible to work with natural systems to create self-renewing wealth and document my journey so others may reap the benefit of learning from my experiences so they may avoid simple mistakes.
Especially starting out, there are plenty of places to waste time and energy and the feedback loop of waiting multiple years to see results of a test is too slow, if we are to gain adoption we need a better way to transfer to each other what works and what doesn't.
A video is one way to do that.
A person might watch a 5 minute YouTube video and take with them something which took me years to get right. That 5 minutes could translate into many years of learnings which may be applied immediately to their system if they share a similar context.
Being rich is a mindset, and therefore anyone who identifies as it, is it. In most ways, I'm already rich.
Sharing my journey could be considered philanthropy for the planet and all living things on it.
Yes, I spend time making videos but I think this is my most important work so far, if I don't share then the experience dies with me.
I will have no regrets for trying.
I'm only one person after all, and we need global change so I need help and community. This post is a call-to-action, will you join me?
Especially starting out, there are plenty of places to waste time and energy and the feedback loop of waiting multiple years to see results of a test is too slow, if we are to gain adoption we need a better way to transfer to each other what works and what doesn't.
A video is one way to do that.
A person might watch a 5 minute YouTube video and take with them something which took me years to get right. That 5 minutes could translate into many years of learnings which may be applied immediately to their system if they share a similar context.
Being rich is a mindset, and therefore anyone who identifies as it, is it. In most ways, I'm already rich.
Sharing my journey could be considered philanthropy for the planet and all living things on it.
Yes, I spend time making videos but I think this is my most important work so far, if I don't share then the experience dies with me.
I will have no regrets for trying.
I'm only one person after all, and we need global change so I need help and community. This post is a call-to-action, will you join me?
I know that the motivation behind the question is outside of the blog post, but I'm really curious, and would love to ask folks here, what is so exciting about living on a farm? Is it about independence? Or radical self reliance?
As a person who lived my whole life in cities, I have a very hard time to find an appeal in a lifestyle like the one described in an article.Can someone share what they like / appreciate about the life on a farm?
As a person who lived my whole life in cities, I have a very hard time to find an appeal in a lifestyle like the one described in an article.Can someone share what they like / appreciate about the life on a farm?
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case:
* Peace and quiet. It's quite evident whenever I visit a city, but it is, of course, a matter of getting used to it.
* Safety. Out here I only need to worry about the casual pack of wolves, or getting run over by a drunk neighbour out on the road with a tractor. Where I lived before, getting stabbed or shot during a mugging was an actual risk.
* It's away from the grind. Working from home, no matter if you do farm work or just work remotely, is much quieter than being in an office and you are able to concentrate and work uninterrupted in a way that simply isn't possible in most office environments.
* No commuting.
* An active lifestyle without having to resort to things like going to the gym.
* Community. Most people don't know their own neighbours. Out here, people stick together because there really isn't many other options. That's both a blessing and a curse, though.
Independence and self-reliance are nice bonuses, but they really just come with the lifestyle; you can't live on a farm without some of both.
* Peace and quiet. It's quite evident whenever I visit a city, but it is, of course, a matter of getting used to it.
* Safety. Out here I only need to worry about the casual pack of wolves, or getting run over by a drunk neighbour out on the road with a tractor. Where I lived before, getting stabbed or shot during a mugging was an actual risk.
* It's away from the grind. Working from home, no matter if you do farm work or just work remotely, is much quieter than being in an office and you are able to concentrate and work uninterrupted in a way that simply isn't possible in most office environments.
* No commuting.
* An active lifestyle without having to resort to things like going to the gym.
* Community. Most people don't know their own neighbours. Out here, people stick together because there really isn't many other options. That's both a blessing and a curse, though.
Independence and self-reliance are nice bonuses, but they really just come with the lifestyle; you can't live on a farm without some of both.
I bought a farm 20 years ago and moved out of a large city. The benefits I get are:
(1) I can not see me neighbours. They can not see me. Cities just seem live hives of scum and villainy now.
(2) I can see the stars at night. All of them. The milky way is milky.
(3) The sky is not yellow-brown. It's blue and doesn't smell like car exhaust and human urine.
(4) It is quiet. Really, really quiet. No roar of traffic. You get annoyed by how loud the loon calls are at 06:00 because it disturbs the quiet, but then you smile because you can hear the loon calls.
There are, of course, down sides.
(a) rural internet speeds (b) you want the trades to come or a delivery service? No. (c) the snakes in the house keep the mouse population under control (d) where I live, there are a million little things that want to suck your blood and spread disease until the snow falls, then there is lots of snow and you're left wondering which hell is worse
(1) I can not see me neighbours. They can not see me. Cities just seem live hives of scum and villainy now.
(2) I can see the stars at night. All of them. The milky way is milky.
(3) The sky is not yellow-brown. It's blue and doesn't smell like car exhaust and human urine.
(4) It is quiet. Really, really quiet. No roar of traffic. You get annoyed by how loud the loon calls are at 06:00 because it disturbs the quiet, but then you smile because you can hear the loon calls.
There are, of course, down sides.
(a) rural internet speeds (b) you want the trades to come or a delivery service? No. (c) the snakes in the house keep the mouse population under control (d) where I live, there are a million little things that want to suck your blood and spread disease until the snow falls, then there is lots of snow and you're left wondering which hell is worse
A lot of it is what you know. Different areas support different lifestyles. You have learned to enjoy the things you can do in a city: restaurants, walking where other people are walking, concerts, shopping, people watching (not a complete list). In the country we substitute respectively: cooking, solitary walks, listening to wildlife, making our own things, and watching nature. Of course you can do anything from either list in either place if you want to, but it is much harder so you do it less. Even where you can do something from the other list, your environment places limits (My workshop is larger than most houses...)
If I took you out of the city and forced you to work for me as farm labor (yet somehow as a free person not a slave) you would hate the first year or two. However after a few years you would learn the things you can do in the country. One day you would find yourself shooting a deer off your back deck and realize that you used to think guns should be illegal...
If I took you out of the city and forced you to work for me as farm labor (yet somehow as a free person not a slave) you would hate the first year or two. However after a few years you would learn the things you can do in the country. One day you would find yourself shooting a deer off your back deck and realize that you used to think guns should be illegal...
The food. When it's small scale and the varieties aren't selected for industrial efficiency, many fruits and vegetables taste like they're from another world. Coming from another country, the biggest appeal is eating strawberries and blueberries that taste like the blueberries and strawberries I remember as a child and tomatoes and cucumbers that have actual flavor that can carry a salad without globs of "dressing." I think I've had a proper blueberry once in 20 years and only because it was some celebrity chef known for obsessing over his ingredients.
Thankfully, I have family members living out this dream so I don't have to do all the hard work myself :)
Thankfully, I have family members living out this dream so I don't have to do all the hard work myself :)
It's really fun.
A long time ago a friend of mine was trying to convince me to try surfing. He finally got me in the water when he said, "Dude, when was the last time your were tired out from having fun?"
(It didn't go well. At one point I managed to actually land on his back, surfboard and all. But that's beside the point.)
A long time ago a friend of mine was trying to convince me to try surfing. He finally got me in the water when he said, "Dude, when was the last time your were tired out from having fun?"
(It didn't go well. At one point I managed to actually land on his back, surfboard and all. But that's beside the point.)
From a US perspective I imagine people read Walden and want to have a life in the woods.
I grew up in a farming area, and worked on farms as a teen.
There's nothing good about it if you need the farm to make a living.
The wisdom for the past few decades is to have a city job to subsidize the farm.
I have relatives (a couple) who sadly quit their city jobs and bought a farm without local office jobs. They lost everything, even though the husband grew up on a family farm. Common sense isn't that common.
On the other hand, I have friends who grew flowers until weed was legalized, and they switched crops and are making millions now. Already had the land, greenhouses and equipment, just changed the seeds one year. Bam!
There's nothing good about it if you need the farm to make a living.
The wisdom for the past few decades is to have a city job to subsidize the farm.
I have relatives (a couple) who sadly quit their city jobs and bought a farm without local office jobs. They lost everything, even though the husband grew up on a family farm. Common sense isn't that common.
On the other hand, I have friends who grew flowers until weed was legalized, and they switched crops and are making millions now. Already had the land, greenhouses and equipment, just changed the seeds one year. Bam!
The article doesn’t even touch upon ground realities re labour issues. esp during covid times in India. Or on the ground practical challenges.
Hobby farmers in India should stick to fruit orchards(coconut/mango) or spices.
The govt incentivises small farmers a lot. Also, in India..you can’t buy farmland unless your family..father or grandfather has been a farmer or land owning farmer. Indian origin foreign citizens cannot buy farmland. Altho some states are trying to change it(Karnataka where Coorg is being one of them)
I am disappointed with this article. It has the opportunity to create new farmers and guide them but ended up like rah rah self help fluff piece.
Hobby farmers in India should stick to fruit orchards(coconut/mango) or spices.
The govt incentivises small farmers a lot. Also, in India..you can’t buy farmland unless your family..father or grandfather has been a farmer or land owning farmer. Indian origin foreign citizens cannot buy farmland. Altho some states are trying to change it(Karnataka where Coorg is being one of them)
I am disappointed with this article. It has the opportunity to create new farmers and guide them but ended up like rah rah self help fluff piece.
I miss home already :) (I'm from Bengaluru/Bangalore referenced in the article and Coorg is ~5 hours drive). For some of you who may not be familiar with some of the terms:
1 lakh = 1 hundred thousand
Missing from the above is step one: go to your local university and learn how to farm. Every area is different so what is smart in one area is bad in another. This is why you need to find a local university: researchers there know what works in your area.
this article repeats a lot of common "sustainable farming" and "save the soil" type phases, but what most people think is sustainable is in fact harmful in the long run. Other things might be okay, but your local university knows something even better to build up your soil.
this article repeats a lot of common "sustainable farming" and "save the soil" type phases, but what most people think is sustainable is in fact harmful in the long run. Other things might be okay, but your local university knows something even better to build up your soil.
What the univs around here have been teaching have killed soils and the ecosystem to near collapse levels :/ There's a need for those who can afford to be patient for 4-5 years to try regenerative methods. And many farms have gotten there, esp given the tropical climate and monsoons that we have.
There are many different universities so I have no idea which one you mean. However I do know that all the ones I know of are doing real scientific research into the question. They have been trying to spread what works.
Many of the things people think of as good actually harm soil, while what you think of as harming the soil may in fact harm it. Most of the people talking about Organic good are using their voice to make money, not spread the truth.
Many of the things people think of as good actually harm soil, while what you think of as harming the soil may in fact harm it. Most of the people talking about Organic good are using their voice to make money, not spread the truth.
So there are people around me who also are interested in buying some acres to living the dream. But as the post listed, there are a lot overheads and surround issues/problems. Like do you want to grow things "organically" or have to buy *icides to battle enermy of bugs or diceases? At scale, it's too hard to manage the use of chemicals to keep your farm bountiful year round.
"Organic" farming still uses pesticides and herbicides, much worse outdated ones.
Organic farmer here: I haven't seen country that allow herbicides for use in organic farming. Speaking of different pesticides you are basically left with nonsystematic fungicides (a lot of them as sulfur or copper based) and biological control against living pest.
Reference for this claim?
My understanding is that oeganic farming uses less inputs overall (including pesticides and herbicides ) and some organic farmers use no pesticides or herbicides at all depending on the crop.
My understanding is that oeganic farming uses less inputs overall (including pesticides and herbicides ) and some organic farmers use no pesticides or herbicides at all depending on the crop.
Every farm is different. What you call the chemicals is also different, but everything (including water) is a chemical in the end. Organic just chooses to limit modern chemicals that often are much safer. Organic is a one way conversation: conventional farmers do use organic chemicals when they are the best for the job.
If they use less herbicides it is because they are not counting diesel fuel to run their tractor as herbicide. Sure they don't apply roundup, but they spend a lot more money and emit a lot more CO2 pulling steel through the ground to destroy weeds because they are not allowed to use a good herbicide.
Also beware of less inputs in other ways: you can mine the land for nutrients by not putting fertilizer on it as well. Fertilizer isn't only about more crops, it is also about the fact that everything you take off the land includes a certain amount of various nutrients that are forever taken off too. This isn't a problem for pure subsistence farming (subsistence farmers carefully save their poop), but as soon as anything leaves the farm you need to replace what is lost.
If they use less herbicides it is because they are not counting diesel fuel to run their tractor as herbicide. Sure they don't apply roundup, but they spend a lot more money and emit a lot more CO2 pulling steel through the ground to destroy weeds because they are not allowed to use a good herbicide.
Also beware of less inputs in other ways: you can mine the land for nutrients by not putting fertilizer on it as well. Fertilizer isn't only about more crops, it is also about the fact that everything you take off the land includes a certain amount of various nutrients that are forever taken off too. This isn't a problem for pure subsistence farming (subsistence farmers carefully save their poop), but as soon as anything leaves the farm you need to replace what is lost.
Good ol' nicotine.
Is there a similar article for farms in the US? This is a unique perspective from India and appreciate learning about it.
Yes, somewhat at least. Gabe Brown's Dirt To Soil book
(haven't read it, but seen some of his videos (~1 and 2 hours length), and my guess is the main points of the book should be roughly the same as the videos. You can see them too, on YouTube). I have mentioned his work a few times in HN comments linked below[1].
Others have, too. Search for those comments by searching for his name in the search box at the bottom of HN thread pages, powered by Algolia, or directly do it at hn.algolia.com.
[1]:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24996445
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24827234
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24669509
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24669458
Make sure to watch some of his videos too, not missing Treating The Farm as an Ecosystem", a 3-part series by Living Web Farms on YouTube.
As a related aside, Living Web has other good videos too, including one called "Ferment Everything" (or "Anything") or such name, by Meredith Leigh.
Others have, too. Search for those comments by searching for his name in the search box at the bottom of HN thread pages, powered by Algolia, or directly do it at hn.algolia.com.
[1]:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24996445
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24827234
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24669509
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24669458
Make sure to watch some of his videos too, not missing Treating The Farm as an Ecosystem", a 3-part series by Living Web Farms on YouTube.
As a related aside, Living Web has other good videos too, including one called "Ferment Everything" (or "Anything") or such name, by Meredith Leigh.
I think I read somewhere that he (Gabe Brown) is one of the 25 most influential farmers in the US (at least in the regen ag field, if not overall).
Edit: Googled "Gabe Brown 25 influential".
First hit:
https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/authors/379-gabe-brown#:~:text....
First hit:
https://www.no-tillfarmer.com/authors/379-gabe-brown#:~:text....
>one of the 25 most influential farmers in the US.
Correction, if the extract below is true (and emphasis mine):
“Gabe Brown was just named one of the 25 most influential people in agriculture. In the entire world,” says NRCS’ Ray Archuleta. “It is an honor that he is coming to visit NC, and no one knows ecological farming like he does.”
From:
https://organicgrowersschool.org/gabe-brown-lectures-in-west...
Correction, if the extract below is true (and emphasis mine):
“Gabe Brown was just named one of the 25 most influential people in agriculture. In the entire world,” says NRCS’ Ray Archuleta. “It is an honor that he is coming to visit NC, and no one knows ecological farming like he does.”
From:
https://organicgrowersschool.org/gabe-brown-lectures-in-west...
Even better. There are youtube videos of people setting up homesteads all over the US. Buying property, clearing land, raising animals, planting crops, logging, etc. It's mostly geared towards the family farm, but I'm sure there are channels of large scale business farms.
Do they ever do an episode where the pay property taxes? How about one where they encounter healthcare needs?
I would look at youtube, there's a very active homesteading community.
... of successful homesteaders.
The survivorship bias of this movement is akin to vanlife. A lot of people burn out.
I've seen some get themselves into a poverty trap they can't get out of. Can't pay off the farm, can't make enough to survive, can't make enough to sell up and move back to the city, been out of job market too long to get a job on their old industry and would be stuck unemployed / on povo wages.
The survivorship bias of this movement is akin to vanlife. A lot of people burn out.
I've seen some get themselves into a poverty trap they can't get out of. Can't pay off the farm, can't make enough to survive, can't make enough to sell up and move back to the city, been out of job market too long to get a job on their old industry and would be stuck unemployed / on povo wages.
If they were successful they wouldn't be encourage people to subscribe. They are attempting to be successful youtubers, in a number of cases. I saw this researching rocket stove configurations.
Selling the dream is always more profitable than living it.
It depends on what the dream is. Even you intend to become a hermit, you still need to pay taxes in most cases. That means you need to either sell your produce or make money through other means.
Ya, the thing you have to realize about running a small farm is that you are either competing with the huge industrial scale guys or you are competing with all the small town family farms that were born into it. And most of those who were born into it have either bought and built their farm over their entire life or inherited it. It's hard to make a living selling farm products when you have a mortgage payment and you are competing with people who don't and also with people who are more than happy to make near nothing as they are mostly living on pensions and social security anyway.
We have lots of farmland in my family that is passed down. It's a beef cattle ranch. And it's really not even that profitable even though the land is fully paid for. My grandparents farmed it their whole lives, but they also worked as teachers and now get that pension as well as social security. The farm is more of a way of life than a way to make a good living.
We have lots of farmland in my family that is passed down. It's a beef cattle ranch. And it's really not even that profitable even though the land is fully paid for. My grandparents farmed it their whole lives, but they also worked as teachers and now get that pension as well as social security. The farm is more of a way of life than a way to make a good living.
Most large farmers start in livestock because you can afford 10 acres, put cows on it, and then go to the nearby town for a job that supports your life. All the profits from the cows is reinvested into more land until you have enough to get 100 acres of crop land. Then it is farm nights and weekends while working your day job. If all goes well (it doesn't always go well) about the time you are 45 you have enough land that you can retire from the town job to work the farm.
Note that even though the farm is worth millions, what you can income in the above plan is never more than $50,000/year.
Note that even though the farm is worth millions, what you can income in the above plan is never more than $50,000/year.
Exactly. And it's not really worth "millions" either. You might have a thousand acres at $2,000 an acre. But you wouldn't usually be able to sell it all at once at that price. Because few people have a few million on hand that they want to invest for a $50k annual return. (and that assumes you want to do a lot of the labor yourself.)
There's another gap between small family farms and huge scale enterprises. There is a lot of demand for local but quality. Whether it's grass-fed beef, eggs from truly free-ranging chickens, or heritage breed pork that's well butchered (harder than you'd think to find quality animal processing) people are looking for things that the more traditional farms don't know about and the big farms can't afford to do. I think there is a market for focused quality. Of course in the meantime I'm still punching the clock at my IT job but hope the farm can eventually sustain itself.
Ya, there is definitely a niche for that. But it can be difficult. Usually involves certifications and finding the right markets that want what you have in the quantities you can produce it and not more. Also, a lot of the places where land is cheap enough are pretty far from places where demand for heritage pork or wagyu beef is high.
Also, I have found that the old timers are pretty slow to change, but there is actually good reason for that. They have seen the trends come and go, some have jumped on those trends and eventually gotten burned (in my area, it was ostrich and emu farming).
Also, the slow methodical farm build-up over the years tends to evolve out a pretty efficient and effective farming method. I remember a few years ago, my brother and I got on this kick thinking there was a lot of money to be made on the farm by further fattening or "finishing" the cows before selling them. As traditionally, a lot of farms will sell yearlings to feedlots for a lower price. The feedlot then fattens them up and sells for a profit. But after a lot of research and number crunching, we found that the math just didn't work because we would have to pay to ship in the grain, since it isn't grown very locally and then we would also have to eat the higher cost of shipping those heavier cows to the auctions which are also not that close.
The old timers knew this wasn't a profitable pathway even though they didn't all necessarily know the whole story of why it isn't a profitable pathway. We have found this to be true in a lot of cases with older farmers. They know some things won't work, even if they don't fully know the details why.
Also, I have found that the old timers are pretty slow to change, but there is actually good reason for that. They have seen the trends come and go, some have jumped on those trends and eventually gotten burned (in my area, it was ostrich and emu farming).
Also, the slow methodical farm build-up over the years tends to evolve out a pretty efficient and effective farming method. I remember a few years ago, my brother and I got on this kick thinking there was a lot of money to be made on the farm by further fattening or "finishing" the cows before selling them. As traditionally, a lot of farms will sell yearlings to feedlots for a lower price. The feedlot then fattens them up and sells for a profit. But after a lot of research and number crunching, we found that the math just didn't work because we would have to pay to ship in the grain, since it isn't grown very locally and then we would also have to eat the higher cost of shipping those heavier cows to the auctions which are also not that close.
The old timers knew this wasn't a profitable pathway even though they didn't all necessarily know the whole story of why it isn't a profitable pathway. We have found this to be true in a lot of cases with older farmers. They know some things won't work, even if they don't fully know the details why.
What’s their main revenue stream? The homesteading itself, courses or the Youtube advertising dollars?
Selling the dream is always more profitable than living it.
Selling the dream is always more profitable than living it.
Maybe I misunderstand the term, but why would 'homesteading' necessarily be much if anything it a revenue stream? Doesn't it mean roughly 'doing things that shift the scale towards self-sufficiency'?
Yup, self-replicating, self-renewing systems. Check out the 8 forms of capital. There might be more money being produced by "selling the content/dream" but money isn't the only thing these systems will output.
Eating your own produce means being a producer in the economy. It's not a hobby if it feeds you.
Eating your own produce means being a producer in the economy. It's not a hobby if it feeds you.
I am happy now. There is a hope. Now we are talking about real decentralisation. Make this way of thinking popular and use technology properly on a small scale and really good things will start to happen.:)
I liked the movie The Biggest Little Farm about getting a farm running:
https://www.biggestlittlefarmmovie.com/
Realistic? Idealistic? Impractical? I don't know and I'm sure others with more knowledge will comment, but I thought it was interesting and entertaining.
Realistic? Idealistic? Impractical? I don't know and I'm sure others with more knowledge will comment, but I thought it was interesting and entertaining.
Entertainment
>Don’t do it in lieu of a mutual fund investment... Not for the “investment portfolio” your wealth advisor will track.
My dad bought a farm (UK) and it did far better as an investment than the wealth advisor "investment portfolio" in terms of capital appreciation. Also the UK has great tax breaks on farms. Just saying it can be a mistake to disregard that stuff.
My dad bought a farm (UK) and it did far better as an investment than the wealth advisor "investment portfolio" in terms of capital appreciation. Also the UK has great tax breaks on farms. Just saying it can be a mistake to disregard that stuff.
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Buying a farm doesnt look like it is a bad idea. You just need to keep and healthy life and make sure not to be overloaded by the work load that there is, especially at the beginning. I think being a young farmer in 2020 can be difficult, but there is a possibility of bringing something new, some freshness into this depressed industry.
I wrote this - thanks for posting it @happy-go-lucky
Yeah the subject is a little clickbaity but hey, as long as many do read it :p
And yep, this is from an Indian pov and for those with cash to spare looking to get involved again, but some of our experiences at TVC will likely be universally relevant.
Of course, it's a journey and we're still learning much.
Yeah the subject is a little clickbaity but hey, as long as many do read it :p
And yep, this is from an Indian pov and for those with cash to spare looking to get involved again, but some of our experiences at TVC will likely be universally relevant.
Of course, it's a journey and we're still learning much.
Not farming but if you get a chance to watch Homestead Rescue on Discovery it is great.
My parents had a rather large garden (I wouldn't call it a farm), and we grew 3 crops a year in it. As a kid/teenager I hated it at the time, since they made me work there. Fast forward 30 years I have a bunch of raised beds in my backyard, grow produce, and find it more rewarding in that non-monetary fashion, than just about any other thing I've done. Properly set up (basically just automatic drip irrigation, which is super cheap) it's very low maintenance.
So yeah, I agree with the author. As an engineer, doing this to make money is stupid. But as a lifestyle thing I think it's a lot of fun. And then you also get to eat what you grow, in addition to the "lifestyle".
So yeah, I agree with the author. As an engineer, doing this to make money is stupid. But as a lifestyle thing I think it's a lot of fun. And then you also get to eat what you grow, in addition to the "lifestyle".
> basically just automatic drip irrigation, which is super cheap
Any preferred go-to guide on setting that up? I'm thinking of something with an IBC, and some type of moisture sensing automation, so I can pre-fertilize the water and walk away for 2 weeks if I wanted to without coming back to death.
Any preferred go-to guide on setting that up? I'm thinking of something with an IBC, and some type of moisture sensing automation, so I can pre-fertilize the water and walk away for 2 weeks if I wanted to without coming back to death.
I didn't go high tech like that. I just went to home depot and bought some cheap tubing, fittings, pressure compensating drippers (which auto-regulate the flow), stakes, and a 3-way Orbit timer. They have free catalog at the store, which you can just take to plan out your set up. I also don't use fertilizer in the water - instead I use manure in the soil. So I laid out the thicker plastic tubing, then connected smaller tubing that goes to each plant. Set up the timers to give it sufficient time (you may need to set them up to water twice a day if you have very hot weather and want to save some water). Then you just turn it on and walk away. It takes care of itself. In my garden I also have to sprinkle some pellets against slugs, and install a motion sensitive scarecrow sprinkler which scares away the deer. That's pretty much it. Check on it every now and then to make sure your plants aren't wilted in the afternoon. Once you dial in the timings, it's completely hands off.
Do you have any issues with other pests?
I have a tiny terrace garden with several potted plants and a part from slug pellets I also run into leaf miners and aphids and whatnot. So I see myself inspecting my plants daily and often spraying or manually removing bugs. This is much more time-consuming than the watering aspect.
I have a tiny terrace garden with several potted plants and a part from slug pellets I also run into leaf miners and aphids and whatnot. So I see myself inspecting my plants daily and often spraying or manually removing bugs. This is much more time-consuming than the watering aspect.
Fantastic comment. I can actually see myself doing this.
How often do you add manure through the soil?
How often do you add manure through the soil?
I'm not aiming to maximize yield, so I only add it once a year, to sort of "replenish" things. I also have a compost heap in which I compost grass clippings and autumn leaves, so I mix that in as well.
If I wanted to maximize yield, fertilization would have to be customized more (and I'd probably just use liquid fertilizer out of a watering can). What I have is adequate for my simple set up.
My parents were concerned about yields (because they sold part of the produce for extra income), so they fertilized several times a year, mostly either with manure or with guano (chicken poop), but they used granulated nitrogen fertilizer as well. Then again, they harvested three crops every year, and I only harvest one. It's not hot enough where I live to grow more than that.
If I wanted to maximize yield, fertilization would have to be customized more (and I'd probably just use liquid fertilizer out of a watering can). What I have is adequate for my simple set up.
My parents were concerned about yields (because they sold part of the produce for extra income), so they fertilized several times a year, mostly either with manure or with guano (chicken poop), but they used granulated nitrogen fertilizer as well. Then again, they harvested three crops every year, and I only harvest one. It's not hot enough where I live to grow more than that.
Seems to me if you want to do this, you're missing out on the experience. Push a button, get a prize is not very rewarding in the long run.
When I started my backyard growing habit, it was never meant as a self-sustaining venture. It became part of my morning routine, I'd water the plants and just keep an eye on things. Watching the plant's growth from day to day is rather impressive. It's amazing how fast different plants grow in 24hrs. I even did a timelapse overnight of a squash plant's journey. I also started checking things out with a flash light right after dark. The slug hunting became sport. TL;DR if you honestly think you can have a small raised bed/container garden survive with nothing more than drip irrigation, then disappointment is in your future.
When I started my backyard growing habit, it was never meant as a self-sustaining venture. It became part of my morning routine, I'd water the plants and just keep an eye on things. Watching the plant's growth from day to day is rather impressive. It's amazing how fast different plants grow in 24hrs. I even did a timelapse overnight of a squash plant's journey. I also started checking things out with a flash light right after dark. The slug hunting became sport. TL;DR if you honestly think you can have a small raised bed/container garden survive with nothing more than drip irrigation, then disappointment is in your future.
> Seems to me if you want to do this, you're missing out on the experience. Push a button, get a prize is not very rewarding in the long run.
I disagree. I installed Home Assistant, got some smart plugs and ESP chips and bought a solenoid. Sitting on the deck and seeing the sprinkler go at sundown +30mins or getting the Slack alert as it turns on and off is very satisfying.
There is plenty of hard work to do, but I really believe that automating the watering is more efficient when done by my automation. It was quite inexpensive too.
I disagree. I installed Home Assistant, got some smart plugs and ESP chips and bought a solenoid. Sitting on the deck and seeing the sprinkler go at sundown +30mins or getting the Slack alert as it turns on and off is very satisfying.
There is plenty of hard work to do, but I really believe that automating the watering is more efficient when done by my automation. It was quite inexpensive too.
I love the experience but hate feeling chained to my garden when I want to take a weeks long trip into the wilderness. I primarily want to automate looking after my garden in my absence.
Oh, I’m with you. The issue is that it’s my mom’s backyard and I’m usually not there during the week. So far she’s able to manage, but trying to make it easier for her.
Even got several mystery squash that took over the lawn.
I start it all from seed myself (have good South exposure at the apartment), but once the last frost is out of the way, out of the city and in the ground they go.
Even got several mystery squash that took over the lawn.
I start it all from seed myself (have good South exposure at the apartment), but once the last frost is out of the way, out of the city and in the ground they go.
The colloquialism "to buy the farm" meaning "to die" made this a funny click.
My thought process went from "not really, but let's see what the author is on about" to "ohhh, the kind with acreage not caskets, got it."
My thought process went from "not really, but let's see what the author is on about" to "ohhh, the kind with acreage not caskets, got it."
This dark joke comes from back in the day when if an airplane crashed on your farm you’d get a significant insurance payout from the federal government. So the joke became that the failed pilot “bought the farm.”
Huh. I thought it was because you got a small plot of land (about 6' by 2', with a nice headstone).
Interesting, TIL. But is there no profit in kicking the bucket?
For the butcher, yes. Not for the pig.
> Interesting, TIL. But is there no profit in kicking the bucket?
Not for the deceased, at least.
Not for the deceased, at least.
My grandparents told it differently.
To them, it was a dark colloquialism from the world wars. Infantry would often talk to each other about how they were looking forward to "buying a farm" once the war was over and they went home to their families.
When the soldiers died in the trenches, as they often did, it was said that they had "bought the farm" as a euphemism. Usually it was better than saying how they actually died.
To them, it was a dark colloquialism from the world wars. Infantry would often talk to each other about how they were looking forward to "buying a farm" once the war was over and they went home to their families.
When the soldiers died in the trenches, as they often did, it was said that they had "bought the farm" as a euphemism. Usually it was better than saying how they actually died.
“I had rather be on my farm than be emperor of the world” —George Washington (b. 1732) https://archive.is/X0UJc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_policy_of_the_Uni...
In my experience, farming is 24x7 hard work;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_policy_of_the_Uni...
In my experience, farming is 24x7 hard work;
Off-topic but what is the original source of the trend of talks/articles that start with "So you want to..."? I find it very annoying, though I don't know why.
I was also curious, so I looked it up on Google Ngram Viewer. Looks like the phrase became relatively popular in the 1940s and then started a steep rise around 1994 up until 2012 when it peaked.
Thanks, I hadn't thought to try there. It does have the ring of a 1940s public service announcement.
I don't have any (at least many) false thoughts about how cool and romantic it will be. It will be hard and frustrating at times but waay more fulfilling than the current tech job. We're planning to start scaling little by little, year by year, me working still remotely. The main reasons we're doing this are that I've dreamed about this past 15 years and to raise our kids in a healthier surrounding and teach them how to grow food and take care of animals.
For anyone having similar dreams checkout Richard Perkins' educational job in the regenerative agriculture space. He has written excellent book Making Small Farms Work[1] and he has active Youtube channel[1] as well as internet courses.
[1]: http://www.ridgedalepermaculture.com/blog/new-book-making-sm... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/user/mrintegralpermanence