Toyota 'reviewing' key fob remote start subscription plan after blowback(thedrive.com)
thedrive.com
Toyota 'reviewing' key fob remote start subscription plan after blowback
https://www.thedrive.com/news/43636/toyota-reviewing-key-fob-remote-start-subscription-plan-after-massive-blowback
281 comments
Manufacturers sell through dealer networks to the buyers of new cars, who are a very small fraction of the population, who tend to buy cars rather more often than the average person
In other words, they primarily care about the first owner, and then primarily the first three years of the first owner. Everything outside that first owner's first three years is only baked-in as a matter of "resale value" -- if the entire industry adopts stuff that goes obsolete after two years, there is no competitive advantage in being err, less-obsolete.
In other words, they primarily care about the first owner, and then primarily the first three years of the first owner. Everything outside that first owner's first three years is only baked-in as a matter of "resale value" -- if the entire industry adopts stuff that goes obsolete after two years, there is no competitive advantage in being err, less-obsolete.
Ain't that the truth.
It hit me like a brick when I walked into a Toyota dealership to get some transmission oil from the parts department recently.
The saleroom was luxurious. You could eat off of the floor and check your teeth in it afterward, it was so shiny.
All of the sales people looked tip top.
I felt like I had just walked into a casino.
Then I found the parts desk... a dingy, tiny window in a cramped area in the back of the dealership where I had to stand (no chairs) for literally 10 minutes until somebody was able to even notice I was there.
Seemed pretty clear what their main goal was.
It hit me like a brick when I walked into a Toyota dealership to get some transmission oil from the parts department recently.
The saleroom was luxurious. You could eat off of the floor and check your teeth in it afterward, it was so shiny.
All of the sales people looked tip top.
I felt like I had just walked into a casino.
Then I found the parts desk... a dingy, tiny window in a cramped area in the back of the dealership where I had to stand (no chairs) for literally 10 minutes until somebody was able to even notice I was there.
Seemed pretty clear what their main goal was.
As a former mechanic, I can explain this a bit. Dealer parts departments aren't really setup for retail sale, they are mainly there to support their shop and commercial customers. I worked at an independent shop; but via fleet contracts we bought a large volume of OEM parts from the local Ford & Toyota dealers. The counter isn't manned because 80% of the parts go to the dealers shop, and the other 19.9% go to commercial buyers.
I would call up the dealership parts department and order something, they would either deliver it or let me know what the ETA was. All net-30 terms, and a stupidly low friction process. Even the chain parts stores have separate phone lines for commercial customers, I never had to hold when buying from Advance Auto b/c there was a different commercial number that they only gave to commercial customers. The garage mechanic isn't really the focus of even the chain parts stores, they make their money on commercial customers.
However, I'm glad they at least maintain the retail friendliness that they do. Try walking into your local Fastenal or Grainger without a commercial account, some of their stores just won't sell to the public. Dealer parts departments have a very similar model to a specialty industrial supplier, where retail sales aren't enough of a priority to really bother with.
And frankly, retail sales take a lot of time for them, since the customers need a lot more help. Half the time, if I was calling I already had the part number available and knew if they needed the last 8 of the VIN number and a $500 transaction only took 2 minutes of the parts managers time.
It isn't a conspiracy, they just prioritize their high value customers way more. Same applies in software. I get way better support from our specialty ERP provider than I do from Google. We pay decent money to Google, but they wouldn't notice losing us as a customer, while the ERP firm would.
It isn't some conspiracy to keep you from fixing your car. That conspiracy is their engineering management doesn't want the cars to be fixable at all, and they want any unfortunate mechanic who has to deal with the abomination to properly suffer. --insert stackoverflow post about using regex for html--
I would call up the dealership parts department and order something, they would either deliver it or let me know what the ETA was. All net-30 terms, and a stupidly low friction process. Even the chain parts stores have separate phone lines for commercial customers, I never had to hold when buying from Advance Auto b/c there was a different commercial number that they only gave to commercial customers. The garage mechanic isn't really the focus of even the chain parts stores, they make their money on commercial customers.
However, I'm glad they at least maintain the retail friendliness that they do. Try walking into your local Fastenal or Grainger without a commercial account, some of their stores just won't sell to the public. Dealer parts departments have a very similar model to a specialty industrial supplier, where retail sales aren't enough of a priority to really bother with.
And frankly, retail sales take a lot of time for them, since the customers need a lot more help. Half the time, if I was calling I already had the part number available and knew if they needed the last 8 of the VIN number and a $500 transaction only took 2 minutes of the parts managers time.
It isn't a conspiracy, they just prioritize their high value customers way more. Same applies in software. I get way better support from our specialty ERP provider than I do from Google. We pay decent money to Google, but they wouldn't notice losing us as a customer, while the ERP firm would.
It isn't some conspiracy to keep you from fixing your car. That conspiracy is their engineering management doesn't want the cars to be fixable at all, and they want any unfortunate mechanic who has to deal with the abomination to properly suffer. --insert stackoverflow post about using regex for html--
Former ASE parts guy, this is correct. My store used to invoice everything 20 to 50% off for commercial, with a 'value'(what they should charge customers) 20 to 50% over retail.
Simple fact is competition is fierce, a good shop is worth thousands per day, and don't tie up your time. Compared to Jim who wants to explain the sound his car makes, show terrible pictures of nothing important, and buy just one off brand sparkplug...well you see where this goes.
Simple fact is competition is fierce, a good shop is worth thousands per day, and don't tie up your time. Compared to Jim who wants to explain the sound his car makes, show terrible pictures of nothing important, and buy just one off brand sparkplug...well you see where this goes.
Ok, let me get this straight. If I establish a “commercial account” with a dealer or a napa I get wholesale pricing?
Yep. You need to buy a lot of parts though; we bought 100k/year from napa, which was the smallest account we maintained. The discount varies with how much your shop buys and how good you are at negotiating. Not sure why you have "commercial account" in quotes, wholesale pricing for business customers is available at lots of businesses. Your grocery store likely offers this exact same thing, commercial terms for businesses aren't exactly a secret.
Just to add to your example list, as I house painter, I pay perhaps 50% of what the major paint brands/retailers will charge out on the shelf for most of the products that I buy. I don't have to throw crazy 'volume' at them, but honestly, I'm sure any painter buys substantially more paint in a year than any homeowner.
They provide tiered pricing -- If I tend to buy a lot of xyz, then I get better pricing on it, etc.
Being a reasonable folk, I only mark up a handful of % off my price -- I hunch many in my industry do a similar markup off retail.
Pricing is a very strange world.
They provide tiered pricing -- If I tend to buy a lot of xyz, then I get better pricing on it, etc.
Being a reasonable folk, I only mark up a handful of % off my price -- I hunch many in my industry do a similar markup off retail.
Pricing is a very strange world.
Yep! And to your door delivery, free.
As others pointed out, they require a minimum purchase volume typically.
We had one guy who wasn't a business per se, but we made him an account because he spent so much money. He was an enthusiast who was always working on other people's cars. We didn't deliver to him, though.
As others pointed out, they require a minimum purchase volume typically.
We had one guy who wasn't a business per se, but we made him an account because he spent so much money. He was an enthusiast who was always working on other people's cars. We didn't deliver to him, though.
There is probably a "minimum purchase annual volume" that goes along with a commercial account.
in my experience it works this way with electronic components as well
Dealership makes money selling you parts via their mechanic services, not selling you parts to DIY your repairs.
The parts dept does not want to sell to you directly, like autozone, they want to sell to you via your "service advisor" when you bring your car in for them to change your fluids for you
The parts dept does not want to sell to you directly, like autozone, they want to sell to you via your "service advisor" when you bring your car in for them to change your fluids for you
As a bit of a recent convert to US makes from Japanese makes I think this should be clarified.
US makes (big 3, not Tesla) are just fine selling you parts. Not only are they fine with it they aren't marked up as insanely high as I remember with decades of Honda and Toyota ownership. In fact you can go to AC/Delco, Ford, or Mopar's website and just buy parts directly with lots of diagrams and cheap prices sent right to your home. If you go to the dealer parts dept desk its usually right behind the sales area and they share the same space for the most part. Displaying lots of fancy part upgrades and options you could be purchasing from their parts department.
Its a pretty different experience after 25 years of Japanese vehicles.
US makes (big 3, not Tesla) are just fine selling you parts. Not only are they fine with it they aren't marked up as insanely high as I remember with decades of Honda and Toyota ownership. In fact you can go to AC/Delco, Ford, or Mopar's website and just buy parts directly with lots of diagrams and cheap prices sent right to your home. If you go to the dealer parts dept desk its usually right behind the sales area and they share the same space for the most part. Displaying lots of fancy part upgrades and options you could be purchasing from their parts department.
Its a pretty different experience after 25 years of Japanese vehicles.
Completely agree, Japanese parts are more expensive than Western parts ... but then, having driven Toyota for most of my adult life, and now having switched to a domestic brand: They just do not seem to NEED as many replacement parts.
My Toyotas were built like tanks, they were virtually indestructible, in over 15 years, I had one major repair that I needed a shop for (and that was related to the seatbelt). Now, with my Ford (and arguably in homeoffice, meaning I do not drive that much anymore), it feels the car's more in the repair shop than on the road.
My Toyotas were built like tanks, they were virtually indestructible, in over 15 years, I had one major repair that I needed a shop for (and that was related to the seatbelt). Now, with my Ford (and arguably in homeoffice, meaning I do not drive that much anymore), it feels the car's more in the repair shop than on the road.
For part costs, depends what part of the world you are in. Toyota is far cheaper than European or US parts where there are a higher concentration of Japanese car owners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_used_vehicle_exportin...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_used_vehicle_exportin...
While some Honda parts are not exactly cheap, many Honda dealerships have these nice parts websites with diagrams and ship direct. https://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/ is one of the most popular ones, but many other sites seem to be based on the same parts search and diagram system, though each dealer sets their pricing.
Actually not sure about pricing for more common vehicles, I've just got 2x first-gen Insights, no not exactly as many of them out there as Civics.
True, those sites are great but they aren't official. I think most of them come from 1 or 2 companies (Southern CA and FL IIRC) under a bunch of domains skinned a bunch of different ways. I used to work for a nissan performance parts place and they were asking me to make them their own site from the parts diagrams they got from disk through some agreement they had with Nissan as a service department IIRC. (a little over 10 years ago)
Anyways, official sites:
* https://store.mopar.com
* https://parts.ford.com
* https://parts-catalog.acdelco.com
I'm not sure how all of them work but mopar the dealerships decide if they want to be part of it. If they do then the website is already made and maintained. If somebody buys parts off of it they will direct the sale to a given dealership based on some criteria I don't know. Maybe just whats closest and in stock according to their inventory.
Anyways, official sites:
* https://store.mopar.com
* https://parts.ford.com
* https://parts-catalog.acdelco.com
I'm not sure how all of them work but mopar the dealerships decide if they want to be part of it. If they do then the website is already made and maintained. If somebody buys parts off of it they will direct the sale to a given dealership based on some criteria I don't know. Maybe just whats closest and in stock according to their inventory.
Ford == motorcraft....
It is telling that the "Big 3" have their own branding for their parts divisions, where I dont believe any of the other manufacturers do?
It is telling that the "Big 3" have their own branding for their parts divisions, where I dont believe any of the other manufacturers do?
Most of them actually sold off or spun off their parts departments into separate companies, and then were really pissed off when what used to be a dedicated in-house proprietary system started serving parts for other makers.
It’s like rockets. The cheapest bidder gets the contract, and they make the worst quality stuff that they possibly can, just enough to get them across the line.
If you want actual good quality parts, you have to go elsewhere.
The problem is that the industry works very hard to hide where that “elsewhere” might be, so that you can’t find them and work your way around the system.
It’s like rockets. The cheapest bidder gets the contract, and they make the worst quality stuff that they possibly can, just enough to get them across the line.
If you want actual good quality parts, you have to go elsewhere.
The problem is that the industry works very hard to hide where that “elsewhere” might be, so that you can’t find them and work your way around the system.
I assume you mean the Monte Carlo casino. A previous trip to Vegas made me realise American casinos are just fat people in flip flops.
There’s a competitive advantage in being the brand that has the best resale value. The economics of pursuing that reputation aren’t always going to be a slam dunk, but it’s not worthless.
What's the benefit? If most new car buyers lease (a good decision if you want a perpetually new car) then who cares about resale value? I suppose it makes a difference on the residual but Chrysler is still in business so it can't be that important.
... whoever is leasing them the car?
The car will be sold as pre-owned after the initial lease. The resale value only matters in that first re-sale when it is 3-5 years old and still desirable. Why would the bank or the manufacturer (sometimes the same entity) care about the resale value 15 years out from manufacture?
e: also, whoever finances the car doesn't really care either, the financing will just be more expensive.
e: also, whoever finances the car doesn't really care either, the financing will just be more expensive.
Subsequent owners care about resale value and it informs their purchasing decisions.
But why would the brand care about having the perception of high resale value 15 years after sale? How does that benefit them?
Resale value makes the initial purchase price higher, and as a consequence makes lease payments higher since leasing is priced as an alternative to buying and selling the car and the car is sold after the lease period.
Resale value also affects the quality of the car as experienced in the first few years.
For these reasons, the brand is positively affected by being associated with a high resale value, assuming it wants to stand for quality.
Resale value also affects the quality of the car as experienced in the first few years.
For these reasons, the brand is positively affected by being associated with a high resale value, assuming it wants to stand for quality.
The people buying a new car every 3-5 years are doing it because they can sell it at the end of that period to recoup some of that value. If the resale value goes down, the calculus on buying new cars changes.
Clog up downstream and it will affect upstream.
Clog up downstream and it will affect upstream.
Exactly. If you have a car that’s worth $10,000 more after five years, then that car can be priced such that it sells for more when you sell it the first time. How much more? Not the full $10,000; it depends on the discount rate - a 4% (real) rate, competitive with the stock market, suggests about $8000 more. And the reason the car has value 5 years out is that it’s still good for another 5-10 years. that driving value is the ultimate reason people buy cars at all.
No, a consumer won’t do that kind of calculus, not directly, but a leasing firm sure will.
No, a consumer won’t do that kind of calculus, not directly, but a leasing firm sure will.
You get to sell an “investment” with a higher return. Albeit negative.
You are not "dinosaur". People like me are. I don't live in the city. I love driving, it is a form of active therapy. One day I realized that the UX of my M3 is making me crazy. I crafted a UX customer journey for myself and removed all the "marketing crap".
Turns out all I need is basic functionality, no infotainment and focus on driving experience and reliability. Sold my BMW, bought 2001 Mercedes-Benz Compressor, restored the hell out of it. After a year, repeated this with X308 Jag and Honda Civic R 2005. Now I have a fleet of cars with no problems and versatility for my use-case.
I will wait patiently for the option to electrify all of them. New cars are not exciting for me, to much "tech" for my taste. May be this is professional deformation, but I need a place in which I am in control all the time, with no distraction from the road and no "notifications", except the valuable ones related to the driving. I use a Garmin navigation and old iPod touch for infotainment needs.
Turns out all I need is basic functionality, no infotainment and focus on driving experience and reliability. Sold my BMW, bought 2001 Mercedes-Benz Compressor, restored the hell out of it. After a year, repeated this with X308 Jag and Honda Civic R 2005. Now I have a fleet of cars with no problems and versatility for my use-case.
I will wait patiently for the option to electrify all of them. New cars are not exciting for me, to much "tech" for my taste. May be this is professional deformation, but I need a place in which I am in control all the time, with no distraction from the road and no "notifications", except the valuable ones related to the driving. I use a Garmin navigation and old iPod touch for infotainment needs.
Values for older cars with less tech has shot through the roof I feel like. Recently I was a Ford Excursion go for $100k[1] which is fucking bonkers for a 15+ year old Ford product. And looking at the market for older Land Cruisers is just as hot, used to you could get a mid 90's LC for around $10k, now they go for $20-30k. Even my 2009 4Runner, you used to be able to find the nicest one around for $10k and I bought mine for $14k with nice ones going for over $20k (keep in mind, for a 12 year old car at the youngest, usually with >100k miles). I think folks are getting fed up with these high tech cars.
The newer, high tech cars are a bitch to repair, especially given 2021's supply issues. Older cars are easier to keep on the road and cheaper to take care of, which are major concerns for most people. At this point, I'm glad I have the connections to get a cheap junker if I need it; my car is ending the end of its lifecycle and half the cars out there now are proprietary spy-machines.
My impression is most of the electronic stuff added to cars went for the better (literally lifes saved)
Electronic injection control, ABS, suspension control, tire pressure sensors, near objects detection, backing monitor, automatic climate control etc.
The buggy stuff stands out while the careful done part doesn’t get much attention, as usual (and I think it should be so, we’re supposed to use as naturally as possible)
PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long.
Electronic injection control, ABS, suspension control, tire pressure sensors, near objects detection, backing monitor, automatic climate control etc.
The buggy stuff stands out while the careful done part doesn’t get much attention, as usual (and I think it should be so, we’re supposed to use as naturally as possible)
PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long.
20 year old cars are not anywhere as bad as you say. My 2001 Honda Accord had electronic injection, ABS, air bags, heck it even had power steering!
The only major safety feature it doesn’t have compared to current cars is side air bags and rear view camera. Calling them death traps is a little much.
The only major safety feature it doesn’t have compared to current cars is side air bags and rear view camera. Calling them death traps is a little much.
There was this discussion a while ago about how ncap changes its test progressively so the bar is raised year after year:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093
It’s not just about feature checkboxes, there is gradual improvement on how the car handles impacts inside and outside the car.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29486093
It’s not just about feature checkboxes, there is gradual improvement on how the car handles impacts inside and outside the car.
Also vehicle stability assist and automatic emergency braking. I would call those two lifesaving features.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc...
Lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control could be considered safety features also. I would rate them lower than the first two things I mentioned though, in terms of positive safety impact.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/life-saving-benefits-of-esc...
Lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control could be considered safety features also. I would rate them lower than the first two things I mentioned though, in terms of positive safety impact.
> Lane keeping assist
I've had lane assist try to slam me into a divider on a highway repeatedly. That definitely falls under the buggy part of the car.
I've had lane assist try to slam me into a divider on a highway repeatedly. That definitely falls under the buggy part of the car.
the ESC (VSC) comes in the next gen of accord, but lots of circa-2000 vehicles have VSC (every make has an acronym) The technoilogy reaches back well into the 1990's. You'll find plenty of safe, well constructed vehicles.
VSC/ESC/TCS/VDC & etc. is like ABS as it uses the same wheel speed sensor, but instead of pulsing the calipers to prevent lock-up, it reduces the vehicle's engine output to prevent wheel slippage.
Its pretty good (especially in snow) but nowhere near as critical as good quality tires or ABS unless you drive like a maniac. Most of those older cars are still gonna be good in a crash, if you need some extra peace of mind consider a Volvo or an S-class MB for the crash stuff.
ESC/VSC is scattered around vehicles well into the 1990's.
VSC/ESC/TCS/VDC & etc. is like ABS as it uses the same wheel speed sensor, but instead of pulsing the calipers to prevent lock-up, it reduces the vehicle's engine output to prevent wheel slippage.
Its pretty good (especially in snow) but nowhere near as critical as good quality tires or ABS unless you drive like a maniac. Most of those older cars are still gonna be good in a crash, if you need some extra peace of mind consider a Volvo or an S-class MB for the crash stuff.
ESC/VSC is scattered around vehicles well into the 1990's.
ESC/AWD has become an essential safety equipment given the amount of (arguably unnecessary) power even economy cars are kicking out now. It is also the enabler...
I wonder about this, do those airbags still work? What is the service life of these safety devices? Is there a service interval? My experience is that all safety related items like airbags are treated as radioactive by independent shops and you have to go to the dealer to get them replaced. Is there even guidance on how often to do that? What's the liability to the manufacturer if an airbag doesn't deploy after 20 years? Is there any?
> I wonder about this, do those airbags still work? What is the service life of these safety devices? Is there a service interval?
Well that is very relative, especially in the case of a 2001 Honda Accord that had(/was designed for) Takata ammonium nitrate based airbags. So those have had to have One or more recalls, IDK whether the replacements are 'fixed' or if they still have a service life.
Broadly speaking, check the owners manual. Older cars (i.e. 10+ years old) are likely going to be more conservative in estimates the further back you go as the tech was newer.
> My experience is that all safety related items like airbags are treated as radioactive by independent shops and you have to go to the dealer to get them replaced.
I think this is a fear of liability; I think it might? be difficult for non-dealers to get proper-channel replacements. Ironically, the Takata incident only reinforces this mindset, as the potential liability exposure vs perceived competence if something does happen will cause most small shops to avoid them.
Well that is very relative, especially in the case of a 2001 Honda Accord that had(/was designed for) Takata ammonium nitrate based airbags. So those have had to have One or more recalls, IDK whether the replacements are 'fixed' or if they still have a service life.
Broadly speaking, check the owners manual. Older cars (i.e. 10+ years old) are likely going to be more conservative in estimates the further back you go as the tech was newer.
> My experience is that all safety related items like airbags are treated as radioactive by independent shops and you have to go to the dealer to get them replaced.
I think this is a fear of liability; I think it might? be difficult for non-dealers to get proper-channel replacements. Ironically, the Takata incident only reinforces this mindset, as the potential liability exposure vs perceived competence if something does happen will cause most small shops to avoid them.
Would a 2001 Accord have had the recall performed? My understanding is that there is a limited time manufacturers take responsibility for recalls, even safety related.
I know a guy who bought a 2007 (?) Toyota Tacoma and his frame cracked which was a recall but Toyota will not fix it now.
I know a guy who bought a 2007 (?) Toyota Tacoma and his frame cracked which was a recall but Toyota will not fix it now.
I recently had a chance to play with a done airbag. For readers’ peace of mind, I found no signs of blood or any severe driver injury, nor tobacco smell, though it did smell spilled soda.
There were holes behind the steering, through which you can push a single steel wire clip going around at three points, and the whole horn pad comes off. Behind the pad was a soft steel frame sandwiched between the bag and the inflator by threaded rods from bag side.
A thick yellow cable and a ground wire was attached through steering “clockspring”/“spiral cable”. A tab cleverly designed locked it so as to never loosen from vibrations. Ground wire seemed to double as the horn switch wire.
The particular inflator I had removed was a charred metal can with a flange that looks a bit like a small sachertorte or a large Korean chocolate pie with dozen 2-3mm(~1/10”) gas holes punched along its circumference.
As far as I can see, the thermoplastic horn pad alone seems to be somewhat distribution controlled, but the whole bag with cover and frames is through dealerships for $300-600. There seems to be remarkable cost saving is going on, and there seems to be much less variations, to the wheel, the above-mentioned frame, and the inflator, than for cars and trims and horn pads, looking at internet auctioning websites. Some parts are just the same, it seems.
These nitrate or any of explosive charges in common uses generally has expiry date and even shelf lives at temperatures; X months at 100F, Y years at -30C, and so on, but rarely going as long as a decade or longer. Obvious intuition is that total energy must decrease over time, but often their peak pressure of explosion increases dramatically, especially after experiencing high heat and/or vibration. This is what lead to Takata recalls: the peak became so high that the can didn’t hold.
With these pieces of knowledges, I think that airbags ideally should be temperature monitored and regularly replaced once per few years. It’s almost trivial to do, at least for driver’s front airbag. It might even be possible for drivers to do. The heavy caveat to it is that replacing all airbags for a car would cost couple grands every year or two per car for tens of millions of cars on the road. That’s difficult.
There were holes behind the steering, through which you can push a single steel wire clip going around at three points, and the whole horn pad comes off. Behind the pad was a soft steel frame sandwiched between the bag and the inflator by threaded rods from bag side.
A thick yellow cable and a ground wire was attached through steering “clockspring”/“spiral cable”. A tab cleverly designed locked it so as to never loosen from vibrations. Ground wire seemed to double as the horn switch wire.
The particular inflator I had removed was a charred metal can with a flange that looks a bit like a small sachertorte or a large Korean chocolate pie with dozen 2-3mm(~1/10”) gas holes punched along its circumference.
As far as I can see, the thermoplastic horn pad alone seems to be somewhat distribution controlled, but the whole bag with cover and frames is through dealerships for $300-600. There seems to be remarkable cost saving is going on, and there seems to be much less variations, to the wheel, the above-mentioned frame, and the inflator, than for cars and trims and horn pads, looking at internet auctioning websites. Some parts are just the same, it seems.
These nitrate or any of explosive charges in common uses generally has expiry date and even shelf lives at temperatures; X months at 100F, Y years at -30C, and so on, but rarely going as long as a decade or longer. Obvious intuition is that total energy must decrease over time, but often their peak pressure of explosion increases dramatically, especially after experiencing high heat and/or vibration. This is what lead to Takata recalls: the peak became so high that the can didn’t hold.
With these pieces of knowledges, I think that airbags ideally should be temperature monitored and regularly replaced once per few years. It’s almost trivial to do, at least for driver’s front airbag. It might even be possible for drivers to do. The heavy caveat to it is that replacing all airbags for a car would cost couple grands every year or two per car for tens of millions of cars on the road. That’s difficult.
My Takata airbag was recalled. I have been burned by the dealer before so I demanded they come to my house and let me watch them do the replacement. They agreed and sent a tech out.
He popped the airbag/horn assembly off the steering wheel by inserting a screwdriver in a hole I never noticed on the side of the steering wheel. He unplugged the whole assembly, plugged in the new one, clipped it in place and was done. Took maybe one minute.
This could EASILY be a service part, based on what I saw. I assume it isn’t for liability reasons. Presumably that is also why the parts are expensive. Not for manufacturing but for R&D and liability.
He popped the airbag/horn assembly off the steering wheel by inserting a screwdriver in a hole I never noticed on the side of the steering wheel. He unplugged the whole assembly, plugged in the new one, clipped it in place and was done. Took maybe one minute.
This could EASILY be a service part, based on what I saw. I assume it isn’t for liability reasons. Presumably that is also why the parts are expensive. Not for manufacturing but for R&D and liability.
One reason they are different from a normal service part is that they are classed as dangerous goods.
That means they can only be transported by vehicles classed to carry dangerous goods (with many regulations).
I would also assume that they have specialty storage requirements - the warehouse shelf for normal parts would not be regarded as safe.
I am in New Zealand, but I am guessing that the requirements in the US are probably more restrictive than here because we rarely sue over here.
That means they can only be transported by vehicles classed to carry dangerous goods (with many regulations).
I would also assume that they have specialty storage requirements - the warehouse shelf for normal parts would not be regarded as safe.
I am in New Zealand, but I am guessing that the requirements in the US are probably more restrictive than here because we rarely sue over here.
My 2002 Focus had side impact airbags so they were around then, just not in every car yet.
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> and rear view camera
Surely has a rear view mirror which does the same thing.
Surely has a rear view mirror which does the same thing.
The point of rearview cameras was so people would stop accidentally running over toddlers who are too short to see out the rear window.
Blind spot assist
So Ive bought two cars this year, a 2013 Kia and a 2022 Subaru BRZ.
On the Kia, the first day I used it the radio just froze up. I had to get a tooth pick to push the hidden reboot button. Every time I start the car the volume on the radio is deafening even though I turned it off at a low volume. It also attempts to download my music off my phone even though Im using spotify. Every time. There are firmware updates... if you have the 2014 model. The worst thing it did is randomly dial 911 when my phone was connected despite absolutely nothing having happened.
My BRZ has a more modern setup, that absolutely does not work with apple car play. I had it working for ten minutes and then it just randomly stopped. This is a brand new car and a brand new phone. Also replacement keys are absurdly expensive in order to provide me the benefit of... not turning a key? Its a stick shift so remote start is pointless since someone has to press the clutch in.
Im basically better off with the aux port.
Yes the internal engine electronics are nice but my experience with anything in the cabin is that it quickly becomes trash. The thing that annoys me is that when I inevitably have to replace these things, Im certain its going to be incredibly overpriced and I will have used like zero of its broken features.
The car I used to have, a 2013 FRS... perfect. Very basic stereo. All analog guages. Nothing went wrong ever.
On the Kia, the first day I used it the radio just froze up. I had to get a tooth pick to push the hidden reboot button. Every time I start the car the volume on the radio is deafening even though I turned it off at a low volume. It also attempts to download my music off my phone even though Im using spotify. Every time. There are firmware updates... if you have the 2014 model. The worst thing it did is randomly dial 911 when my phone was connected despite absolutely nothing having happened.
My BRZ has a more modern setup, that absolutely does not work with apple car play. I had it working for ten minutes and then it just randomly stopped. This is a brand new car and a brand new phone. Also replacement keys are absurdly expensive in order to provide me the benefit of... not turning a key? Its a stick shift so remote start is pointless since someone has to press the clutch in.
Im basically better off with the aux port.
Yes the internal engine electronics are nice but my experience with anything in the cabin is that it quickly becomes trash. The thing that annoys me is that when I inevitably have to replace these things, Im certain its going to be incredibly overpriced and I will have used like zero of its broken features.
The car I used to have, a 2013 FRS... perfect. Very basic stereo. All analog guages. Nothing went wrong ever.
I've got a 2016 Honda Accord. The Apple Car Play sometimes freezes up completely and the whole system becomes unresponsive. I wish there were a hidden reset button though - if there is, I haven't found it. The only fix is restarting (rebooting?) the car.
Sometimes the whole stereo just freezes up even when I'm not using Car Play, or the FM radio just stops with some Android error message.
Generally I find the Bluetooth is more reliable than Car Play so I just use that. I now keep my old iPhone around and tether it to my new iPhone and use the old one for navigation.
Unfortunately the car does not have an aux jack, so Bluetooth is the next best thing.
I've thought about replacing it but Crutchfield flatly says they don't recommend replacing it at all, which makes sense - the backup camera displays on there and the whole unit has controls on the steering wheel, which I doubt would work with a third-party replacement. If a company that sells car stereos recommends that I don't buy one, I'd be a fool not to listen.
I have rented newer cars that have better infotainment systems but they make other changes I'm not crazy about - they now have entertainment information in the main instrument panel, leading them to shrink the speedometer to make space for it. Speed is the most important thing I need to know when driving, so don't shrink the speedometer. So I'm just not convinced a new car will be any better on the whole (and it's hard to get a new car now anyway) so I'll just keep driving this one.
Sometimes the whole stereo just freezes up even when I'm not using Car Play, or the FM radio just stops with some Android error message.
Generally I find the Bluetooth is more reliable than Car Play so I just use that. I now keep my old iPhone around and tether it to my new iPhone and use the old one for navigation.
Unfortunately the car does not have an aux jack, so Bluetooth is the next best thing.
I've thought about replacing it but Crutchfield flatly says they don't recommend replacing it at all, which makes sense - the backup camera displays on there and the whole unit has controls on the steering wheel, which I doubt would work with a third-party replacement. If a company that sells car stereos recommends that I don't buy one, I'd be a fool not to listen.
I have rented newer cars that have better infotainment systems but they make other changes I'm not crazy about - they now have entertainment information in the main instrument panel, leading them to shrink the speedometer to make space for it. Speed is the most important thing I need to know when driving, so don't shrink the speedometer. So I'm just not convinced a new car will be any better on the whole (and it's hard to get a new car now anyway) so I'll just keep driving this one.
Another data point from Honda: I have a 2016 Civic, which I've owned for three years. The infotainment system froze up once, I restarted the car and it was fine. No other issues, Carplay has worked great. My car is the Touring edition, so it also has about 80% of the self-driving functionality that I'd get from a Tesla at a fraction of the cost, and it gets incredible gas mileage while being impressively fast for a cheap compact.
You had an FRS and just bought a BRZ.
I have really wondered how fun they are to drive. They are super fun, right?
They seem really fun and they look great.
Also, Be honest: Initial D fan?
I have really wondered how fun they are to drive. They are super fun, right?
They seem really fun and they look great.
Also, Be honest: Initial D fan?
They are fantastic cars! The glowing reviews are not wrong. Incredibly fun, but also practical in a sense that you won't get yourself killed driving them to the limit.
Counter-anecdote. I have a 2010 BMW and everything on the car still works flawlessly. It doesn't have BT audio which is a pain since Apple removed the audio jack I have to choose between charging and audio out. It has a built-in hard drive in the infotainment system so I could load music on that if I want, but it's a bit clunky.
The built-in mapping/nav system is light years ahead of even the latest apps by Apple and Google. With just a couple taps of the iDrive knob I can add a stop for a rest area or gas station en-route. There is even a prompt for this when the gas reserve is reached. Maps are easy to read and convey useful information like street names and arterial/freeways even when navigation is disabled.
The built-in mapping/nav system is light years ahead of even the latest apps by Apple and Google. With just a couple taps of the iDrive knob I can add a stop for a rest area or gas station en-route. There is even a prompt for this when the gas reserve is reached. Maps are easy to read and convey useful information like street names and arterial/freeways even when navigation is disabled.
> Its a stick shift so remote start is pointless since someone has to press the clutch in.
I have driven stick shift cars my whole life, and never encountered one where I had to press in the clutch to start the engine.
I have driven stick shift cars my whole life, and never encountered one where I had to press in the clutch to start the engine.
Wait, what? You... start your car in neutral? Like... with the clutch out? I have never actually tried that. I will have to experiment next time I am in my car.
On the other hand my 1990 Honda motorcycle must be in neutral to start (there is no clutch position switch) and I don't use the clutch there. Very handy because people love to sit on it for selfies when I park it and they tend to jam it into gear while crawling on it. I assume it is in neutral (I always park that way) and if I hit the starter in gear it would shoot across the street. Thinking about it I suppose that protects me from bumping the starter while riding as well.
On the other hand my 1990 Honda motorcycle must be in neutral to start (there is no clutch position switch) and I don't use the clutch there. Very handy because people love to sit on it for selfies when I park it and they tend to jam it into gear while crawling on it. I assume it is in neutral (I always park that way) and if I hit the starter in gear it would shoot across the street. Thinking about it I suppose that protects me from bumping the starter while riding as well.
Be advised that you increase the risk of driving off accidentally at start by just being in neutral. The clutch is a good double safe that you feel the whole time whkle starting where as the gear is just a check in advance that you can mess up.
I always put the clutch in when starting my car. On the bike I trust the neutral switch, which you are right, I shouldn’t.
It had to be in neutral to park but no guarantee randos haven’t crawled on it. So far the switch did it’s job.
It had to be in neutral to park but no guarantee randos haven’t crawled on it. So far the switch did it’s job.
Ye I believe that fundamentally the check "am I pressing the clutch down" is simpler than "did I put in neutral" when cranking since the former requires no memory.
In case the future internet cares I tried this in my 2010 BMW and with the transmission in neutral and the clutch out the car will turn on but not start until the clutch is depressed.
Really?
Every stick car I've owned (2.5 Saturns, 1 Subaru) has had some sort of interlock switch set up such that if the clutch pedal was not pressed in, turning the ignition would do nothing, whether or not the Car is in gear.
Every stick car I've owned (2.5 Saturns, 1 Subaru) has had some sort of interlock switch set up such that if the clutch pedal was not pressed in, turning the ignition would do nothing, whether or not the Car is in gear.
> I have driven stick shift cars my whole life, and never encountered one where I had to press in the clutch to start the engine.
I think it's mostly a USA thing? Too many lawyers.
My 90s BMW (US market) didn't need the clutch pressed to start, but all my other cars have had that annoyance. I usually disable it so I can start the car normally.
I think it's mostly a USA thing? Too many lawyers.
My 90s BMW (US market) didn't need the clutch pressed to start, but all my other cars have had that annoyance. I usually disable it so I can start the car normally.
I have also driven stick shift cars my whole life, and I've only had one that would let you start it without depressing the clutch. It was a 1985 Honda Accord. I had never driven stick before, so when I went to start the engine, the car immediately lurched forward and stalled.
Every car I've had since then has required me to depress the clutch before it will attempt to turn over the engine.
Every car I've had since then has required me to depress the clutch before it will attempt to turn over the engine.
Unless you park uphill/downhill, and leave it in first as an added safety measure with the parking brake...
Wait so you just park your car in neutral? I mean, I know you CAN do that, but it's generally frowned upon. With the push button start I dont have the option, clutch and brake have to be pressed in or it doesn't even attempt to start
When I was taught to drive a while ago (but at least still this millennium) I was instructed to park in neutral with the handbrake on. I was also taught the drill of starting the engine would involve checking the car was in neutral and to this end the instructor would always leave it in gear to catch me out if I didn't check. To this day I still instinctively wobble the gear stick to check it's in neutral. There was a recommendation to consider leaving it in gear if on a steep hill. I had three different instructors over my time, and all said the same thing.
This was in the UK where driving a manual is the expectation for a test - if you take the test in an automatic you are issued a limited licence which prohibits driving manual cars (which is the large majority of cars in Europe).
I have noticed when driving/being driven in the US that handbrakes are hardly used. I have partly assumed as 'P' on an automatic is sufficient most of the time, and also that education seems to be different - lots of people call it the e(mergency)-brake, i.e. not something to be used regularly.
That all being said, all the manuals I've driven in the last ten or so years require the clutch depressed to start the engine, which always felt like a strange requirement as I knew it was in neutral. I've never driven a manual in the US so I have no idea what's standard there.
This was in the UK where driving a manual is the expectation for a test - if you take the test in an automatic you are issued a limited licence which prohibits driving manual cars (which is the large majority of cars in Europe).
I have noticed when driving/being driven in the US that handbrakes are hardly used. I have partly assumed as 'P' on an automatic is sufficient most of the time, and also that education seems to be different - lots of people call it the e(mergency)-brake, i.e. not something to be used regularly.
That all being said, all the manuals I've driven in the last ten or so years require the clutch depressed to start the engine, which always felt like a strange requirement as I knew it was in neutral. I've never driven a manual in the US so I have no idea what's standard there.
Weird, in the US the way it's taught is you always put the car into first gear when it's at rest (and pull the hand brake, and turn your wheels towards the curb). But yeah, most people drive automatics and just leave the transmission in park.
Same in Eastern Europe. Park in neutral with handbrake on. I leave the gear in when parking on an incline. Older generation always parks with the gear in though.
Wait, does that mean you park in neutral?
Yes, I engage the hand brake usually.
Ah ok. I usually use the hand brake as well, but I also park in gear so that the engine will help stop the car from moving, especially if the brake fails. I use 1st gear except when facing down a slope in which case I use reverse, for obvious reasons. I guess an argument could be made that if you're on flat ground, leaving it in neutral will protect your gears if someone were to hit your car hard enough.
My uber driver a couple nights ago had a 2022 Hyundai Sonata. Rear facing cameras so his eyes did not have to go far when he wanted to change lanes (which he did a lot at 90+mph). I could see from the rear seat that his front passenger tire pressure was low by about 5 psi (!!!).
I was impressed by the tech package on the vehicle but had all the same concerns: What is this thing going to be like in a few years?
Well. I have a 2013 Golf which came with a pretty sweet 2 DIN media head unit. 250 dollars and I have an android replacement head unit which supports all the steering wheel buttons and shows various status info based on a direct connection to the CANBus.
Granted: my car is far simpler than a 2022 Sonata. However there is a bustling aftermarket which can future proof your vehicle (somewhat). Assuming the car companies do not manage to lobby congress into outlawing aftermarket parts (and you can bet they would love to).
I was impressed by the tech package on the vehicle but had all the same concerns: What is this thing going to be like in a few years?
Well. I have a 2013 Golf which came with a pretty sweet 2 DIN media head unit. 250 dollars and I have an android replacement head unit which supports all the steering wheel buttons and shows various status info based on a direct connection to the CANBus.
Granted: my car is far simpler than a 2022 Sonata. However there is a bustling aftermarket which can future proof your vehicle (somewhat). Assuming the car companies do not manage to lobby congress into outlawing aftermarket parts (and you can bet they would love to).
> PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long.
That's very exagerated. 20 years is 2001 (2002 models, really). By then you had really good ABS, modern airbags (not the early 90s type), often good traction control, crash structures. Anything added since it's either mostly unnecessary or just asymptotically incremental.
20 years isn't "that long", the useful lifetime of a car is way more than that.
That's very exagerated. 20 years is 2001 (2002 models, really). By then you had really good ABS, modern airbags (not the early 90s type), often good traction control, crash structures. Anything added since it's either mostly unnecessary or just asymptotically incremental.
20 years isn't "that long", the useful lifetime of a car is way more than that.
"PS: most 20 years old cars are death traps compared to current cars, I’m not sure it’s a good advice to push people to keep using them for that long. "
False, just because a car is "new" does not make it better. There is a global marketplace, and cars manufactured in China, Japan, India do not meet the same safety standards as if they were made in Japan for the USA market, or EU/USA manufactured cars.
Cars made by Japanese Manufacturers for Japan Domestic market do not have to meet much modern standards by EU/US (rightly so, becuase it isn't sold in those markets) but your statement itself is egregious.
I present to you:
Toyota Wigi/Agya/Ayla (Also badge engineering it's actually made by Daihatsu!)
https://toyota.com.ph/wigo
I wrote so much about this car in another blog, because it's quite fascinating actually, you can buy the base, base, no ac vent model for new at $7,000 or 100,000,000 IDR - Indonesian Rupiah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g
No Airbags, NO Radio, no ac vents, no real b or c pillars. Just a cheap mass manufactured car that has no need to pass true safety tests.
--
When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards - Even if the car was assembled in the country, e.g. indonesia or Philippines, the chassis is 99% half assembled before entering due to tariff engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering (also why the Subaru Brat had seats in the truck bed that were, basically useless)
So that means a 10-20yr old Honda CR-V, Fit, etc is much more safer than a new car from a major manufacturer.
Then we get into the fun cars manufactured by Chinese companies. But that's another post. :)
False, just because a car is "new" does not make it better. There is a global marketplace, and cars manufactured in China, Japan, India do not meet the same safety standards as if they were made in Japan for the USA market, or EU/USA manufactured cars.
Cars made by Japanese Manufacturers for Japan Domestic market do not have to meet much modern standards by EU/US (rightly so, becuase it isn't sold in those markets) but your statement itself is egregious.
I present to you:
Toyota Wigi/Agya/Ayla (Also badge engineering it's actually made by Daihatsu!)
https://toyota.com.ph/wigo
I wrote so much about this car in another blog, because it's quite fascinating actually, you can buy the base, base, no ac vent model for new at $7,000 or 100,000,000 IDR - Indonesian Rupiah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kzxn_Vob94
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGIZgVPvE1g
No Airbags, NO Radio, no ac vents, no real b or c pillars. Just a cheap mass manufactured car that has no need to pass true safety tests.
--
When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards - Even if the car was assembled in the country, e.g. indonesia or Philippines, the chassis is 99% half assembled before entering due to tariff engineering - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_engineering (also why the Subaru Brat had seats in the truck bed that were, basically useless)
So that means a 10-20yr old Honda CR-V, Fit, etc is much more safer than a new car from a major manufacturer.
Then we get into the fun cars manufactured by Chinese companies. But that's another post. :)
My point wasn’t that you can’t find 20 years old cars that are better than the worst newer cars (I’d totally imagine 2000’s top of the line Mercedes to be more secure than today’s Lada)
If you stay within a category there will be progressive improvements that cumulate enough to be a big difference 20 years after.
I also totally agree that some cars don’t need to be built to handle getting crushed by a tank if they’re supposed to be lightweight low speed convenience vehicles. Now those still see enough improvement to be changed after a few decades IMO.
If you stay within a category there will be progressive improvements that cumulate enough to be a big difference 20 years after.
I also totally agree that some cars don’t need to be built to handle getting crushed by a tank if they’re supposed to be lightweight low speed convenience vehicles. Now those still see enough improvement to be changed after a few decades IMO.
>When I'm abroad, and I want to buy a car, I look for one that was manufactured and sold also in the USA market so that it meets NTHSA standards
This seems like a super reliable way to purchase a totaled vehicle, no?
This seems like a super reliable way to purchase a totaled vehicle, no?
No, I don't think you understand my example.
Manufacturers make different models. A and B.
A is sold in USA, EU, Rest of the World.
B is only sold in APAC market.
Due to economy of scales, it's much easier to manufacturer the same car that fits all standards as model A and not to remove or replace parts.
This means that there will be a general manufacturing plant of chassis, or that there are similar manufacturing plants around the world. This is common for Toyota, Subaru, Mercedes, BMW. BMW has plants in South AFrica, Germany and south Carolinia. You can see where the car was built by the first VIN number, if it's a number like 4 it's USA, if it's W it's Germany.
This means also if a car is sold in another country, it has tarrifs upon entering, so the manufacturer would semi build up the car in Country of origin, and then finish the assembly in Country where it's finally sold which usually has cheaper labor but since employs locals, has a lower tariff rate and sells for a lower price new.
This means that it will meet USA/EU safety standards because the assembly line in the country of origin is not going to defer to make cars that far from a base acceptable standard. This makes more sense if you know/read of the Toyota Production System, TPS - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System basically Henry Ford and Assembly Line production x4.
tl;dr if car model/trim is sold in USA, EU - car companies save money by basing design/safety standards to meet US/EU and will give that away for rest of the world with no such standards because it's more expensive to deviate from the assembly line process or even from vehicle branding.
--
For car model B, that has no USA/EU release schedule, car manufacturers then will deliver a much cheaper car w/o the safety equipment because it isn't required. Most of APAC barely only requires a speedometer, seatbelt and wipers on windows with default lights. E.g. no reverse camera, no bumpers that can withstand 5-10mph incidents w/o impaling people, very small B and C pillars (less roll over protection(, no airbag, no side airbags, etc.
These small things add up to the BOM or build of material, reducing them reduces part cost, labor cost, manufacturing cost, shipping cost, and reaches the goal of more sales in APAC Where people are much more price sensitive. The average car purchase price in APAC is $13,000, e.g. Suzuki Carry, Mitsubishi Mirage G4, Toyota Wigo and in certain parts of Asia, less than $8000.
Which is why this example works - I'm buying a car that was marketed and sold in the USA but not necessarily "FROM" the USA. So it would not be crashed or totaled or that insurance video/car max tactics of fear.
It would be a car that was imported by the manufacturer as NEW, sold as NEW in the country and then go through deprecation, but since it meets USA/EU spec, it can very much be a better car than a "new" car because it has more safety built in, alongside other better creature comforts like power seats, actual HEAT (most cars in Asia do not include heat, only A/C - no heater core.) ABS, (still pretty rare in Asia), rear camera, etc - the thing is it has airbags, enforced B and C pillars, proper seat belts and also a bigger engine over 2L. Most Asian cars made for Asia market are sub 2L because of tariffs anyway.
tl;dr buying basic USA/EU cars in Asia is a luxury all around. You'll live if you have a roll over accident.
Manufacturers make different models. A and B.
A is sold in USA, EU, Rest of the World.
B is only sold in APAC market.
Due to economy of scales, it's much easier to manufacturer the same car that fits all standards as model A and not to remove or replace parts.
This means that there will be a general manufacturing plant of chassis, or that there are similar manufacturing plants around the world. This is common for Toyota, Subaru, Mercedes, BMW. BMW has plants in South AFrica, Germany and south Carolinia. You can see where the car was built by the first VIN number, if it's a number like 4 it's USA, if it's W it's Germany.
This means also if a car is sold in another country, it has tarrifs upon entering, so the manufacturer would semi build up the car in Country of origin, and then finish the assembly in Country where it's finally sold which usually has cheaper labor but since employs locals, has a lower tariff rate and sells for a lower price new.
This means that it will meet USA/EU safety standards because the assembly line in the country of origin is not going to defer to make cars that far from a base acceptable standard. This makes more sense if you know/read of the Toyota Production System, TPS - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System basically Henry Ford and Assembly Line production x4.
tl;dr if car model/trim is sold in USA, EU - car companies save money by basing design/safety standards to meet US/EU and will give that away for rest of the world with no such standards because it's more expensive to deviate from the assembly line process or even from vehicle branding.
--
For car model B, that has no USA/EU release schedule, car manufacturers then will deliver a much cheaper car w/o the safety equipment because it isn't required. Most of APAC barely only requires a speedometer, seatbelt and wipers on windows with default lights. E.g. no reverse camera, no bumpers that can withstand 5-10mph incidents w/o impaling people, very small B and C pillars (less roll over protection(, no airbag, no side airbags, etc.
These small things add up to the BOM or build of material, reducing them reduces part cost, labor cost, manufacturing cost, shipping cost, and reaches the goal of more sales in APAC Where people are much more price sensitive. The average car purchase price in APAC is $13,000, e.g. Suzuki Carry, Mitsubishi Mirage G4, Toyota Wigo and in certain parts of Asia, less than $8000.
Which is why this example works - I'm buying a car that was marketed and sold in the USA but not necessarily "FROM" the USA. So it would not be crashed or totaled or that insurance video/car max tactics of fear.
It would be a car that was imported by the manufacturer as NEW, sold as NEW in the country and then go through deprecation, but since it meets USA/EU spec, it can very much be a better car than a "new" car because it has more safety built in, alongside other better creature comforts like power seats, actual HEAT (most cars in Asia do not include heat, only A/C - no heater core.) ABS, (still pretty rare in Asia), rear camera, etc - the thing is it has airbags, enforced B and C pillars, proper seat belts and also a bigger engine over 2L. Most Asian cars made for Asia market are sub 2L because of tariffs anyway.
tl;dr buying basic USA/EU cars in Asia is a luxury all around. You'll live if you have a roll over accident.
$14k USD / 700k PHP -- not bad!
Any modern car would just be a cloud of plastic and aluminum dust around a 90's era Volvo in a collision.
But you'd need to be scraped away from the inner side of the Volvo's windshield.
Ties pressure sensors, why is this silliness needed? Automatic climate control? Just another overly complicated system that is more expensive to repair. ABS? Learn to brake. Suspension control? More marketing than a useful feature, something else to go fail.
Death traps? No.
Death traps? No.
> Tires pressure sensors, why is this silliness needed?
So I know when my tire pressure is low? Roads have hazards on them, I'd prefer to know something is causing my tire to slowly leak well before it starts to cause a problem.
Also TPMSs aren't critical path tech, if they break down the car still runs fine.
> ABS? Learn to brake.
Is this a joke? ABS has saved countless lives. In emergency situations higher order thinking goes out the window. ABS is a "do what needs to be done to save my life right now" system.
Heck even automatic climate control is pretty damn simple. While I don't prefer using it, a thermostat that turns a heater on or off is not exactly new technology. Setting up a feedback loop to narrow in on "how hot" the heater should be set to for the fan to kept continuously while keeping ambient air at a constant temperature is also quite simple. This is 40-50+ year old tech.
So I know when my tire pressure is low? Roads have hazards on them, I'd prefer to know something is causing my tire to slowly leak well before it starts to cause a problem.
Also TPMSs aren't critical path tech, if they break down the car still runs fine.
> ABS? Learn to brake.
Is this a joke? ABS has saved countless lives. In emergency situations higher order thinking goes out the window. ABS is a "do what needs to be done to save my life right now" system.
Heck even automatic climate control is pretty damn simple. While I don't prefer using it, a thermostat that turns a heater on or off is not exactly new technology. Setting up a feedback loop to narrow in on "how hot" the heater should be set to for the fan to kept continuously while keeping ambient air at a constant temperature is also quite simple. This is 40-50+ year old tech.
Are you seriously under the impression most of the computers in a modern car have anything to do with safety?
My car has a full blown ECU for my seat memory. And a second one for the passenger seat memory. Another one for my soft close trunk. One for my HUD. One for my gauge cluster. One that exists entire for... playing fake engine sounds. One for the head unit, which is a separate ECU from the one for the amplifier, which is in turn separate from the DVD changer ECU. One climate control... but only in the rear! Front gets a separate ECU for AC. One for interior accent lighting (not lighting your dashboard, I mean dim lights around your door handle).
And if you think ECU is a stretch here, these are individually versioned ECUs all residing on a shared bus. If my amplifier ECU dies, the optical fiber ring it's connected to might go down. Things connected to that bus include 911 emergency dialing the headunit's RTC...
My car has a full blown ECU for my seat memory. And a second one for the passenger seat memory. Another one for my soft close trunk. One for my HUD. One for my gauge cluster. One that exists entire for... playing fake engine sounds. One for the head unit, which is a separate ECU from the one for the amplifier, which is in turn separate from the DVD changer ECU. One climate control... but only in the rear! Front gets a separate ECU for AC. One for interior accent lighting (not lighting your dashboard, I mean dim lights around your door handle).
And if you think ECU is a stretch here, these are individually versioned ECUs all residing on a shared bus. If my amplifier ECU dies, the optical fiber ring it's connected to might go down. Things connected to that bus include 911 emergency dialing the headunit's RTC...
> Are you seriously under the impression most of the computers in a modern car have anything to do with safety?
I never said that.
I said the examples pointer out by the GP post were all terrible examples to demonstrate too many computers in a car.
Also ECU is Engine Control Unit. Your seat probably has a tiny microcontroller in it, MCU.
And yes, your examples are all great examples of complexity that can break.
Anti-lock breaks, bad example. Tire Pressure Monitors, bad example.
Computer controlled LED accent lighting, good example.
I never said that.
I said the examples pointer out by the GP post were all terrible examples to demonstrate too many computers in a car.
Also ECU is Engine Control Unit. Your seat probably has a tiny microcontroller in it, MCU.
And yes, your examples are all great examples of complexity that can break.
Anti-lock breaks, bad example. Tire Pressure Monitors, bad example.
Computer controlled LED accent lighting, good example.
So you agree with their point and just wanted to nitpick?
I mean they're mostly right in their comment, a large number of people don't even know what the tpms light is (https://www.aftermarketnews.com/forty-two-percent-of-drivers...)
Climate control is a largely overcomplicated system in many cars, using everything from humidity sensors to skin temp scans and then refusing to work when any one part stops working
Adaptive suspensions have left entire generations of vehicles pretty much unusable as they slowly fail and essentially "total" perfectly good cars
Even if they're wrong on one or two counts, the point is clear enough...
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Also anyone who knows cars knows when ECU is referring to an Electronic Control Unit from context...
It's been a few decades since anyone really got confused by that one.
The ECU in charge of the engine in this car is called the "Digital Motor Electronics" ECU or DME.
They are proper ECUs with a lot more complexity than a single MCU. Every single one is a node interconnected with separate firmware versions that need to sync up in certain ways.
The DME in charge of the engine is treated with exactly the same as the ECU in charge of accent lighting when it comes to manufacturer tooling, the tooling simply enumerates over these ECUs and provides an identical interface to them.
I mean they're mostly right in their comment, a large number of people don't even know what the tpms light is (https://www.aftermarketnews.com/forty-two-percent-of-drivers...)
Climate control is a largely overcomplicated system in many cars, using everything from humidity sensors to skin temp scans and then refusing to work when any one part stops working
Adaptive suspensions have left entire generations of vehicles pretty much unusable as they slowly fail and essentially "total" perfectly good cars
Even if they're wrong on one or two counts, the point is clear enough...
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Also anyone who knows cars knows when ECU is referring to an Electronic Control Unit from context...
It's been a few decades since anyone really got confused by that one.
The ECU in charge of the engine in this car is called the "Digital Motor Electronics" ECU or DME.
They are proper ECUs with a lot more complexity than a single MCU. Every single one is a node interconnected with separate firmware versions that need to sync up in certain ways.
The DME in charge of the engine is treated with exactly the same as the ECU in charge of accent lighting when it comes to manufacturer tooling, the tooling simply enumerates over these ECUs and provides an identical interface to them.
Also:
1. ABS is banned in Formula 1. That should tell you everything you need to know about whether humans brake as well as a computer
2. You only have one brake pedal. How can you achieve maximum braking effort without ABS if not all wheels have equal traction?
1. ABS is banned in Formula 1. That should tell you everything you need to know about whether humans brake as well as a computer
2. You only have one brake pedal. How can you achieve maximum braking effort without ABS if not all wheels have equal traction?
> ABS is banned in Formula 1. That should tell you everything you need to know about whether humans brake as well as a computer
Not at all. It tells you something about whether Formula 1 drivers brake as well as a computer. Most humans driving cars have a very different level of driving skill from a Formula 1 driver -- especially when it comes to handling extreme conditions that they don't often encounter.
Not at all. It tells you something about whether Formula 1 drivers brake as well as a computer. Most humans driving cars have a very different level of driving skill from a Formula 1 driver -- especially when it comes to handling extreme conditions that they don't often encounter.
I believe that is likely their point. Formula 1 racing frequently bans technologies which are advantageous/reduce required skill. In this case I believe ABS is being banned due to the improvement over even F1 drivers skills
In our field your answer would be the equivalent of “Memory management ? allocate and free your memory yourself. IDE ? another things that eats memory, use nano. Syntax Highlighting? count your brackets and watch your semi-colons. Static analysis ? validate your code yourself.
Memory leaks? No.”
Memory leaks? No.”
"Unit tests? Unit tests are a crutch for wannabes."
While you may do a good job of monitoring your tire pressures most people do not and this has saved many lives. If you are an enthusiast and your car shows you the psi of each tire it is also a handy time saving convenience
Main purpose of ABS is to preserve ability to steer while braking hard. Even if you are a very experienced driver, you can not pump the brake and steer a corner as well on a car that does not have ABS.
I refuse to believe that you’re not trolling.
I took a major "downgrade" last year and went from a Kia Stinger (2019, all the latest tech features) to a 4Runner (2009, almost unchanged since 2003). For how ancient the 4runner is, it's become my favorite car I've ever owned, and the biggest reason it's just how dumbed down and ancient it is.
No onboard wifi, no remote start, no infotainment, no over the air updates. The simplicity also makes the parts super cheap. When I bought it, the headlights were very foggy and I considered taking it somewhere to have them re-polished. I assumed new headlights would cost several hundred dollars each but when I looked i was able to find a pair of headlights and new bulbs for under $250 (for comparison, one enclosure for a Stinger is like $600).
I think what I like most about the old SUV is the idea of self-reliance. Get into a modern car and you're reliant on the towers for WiFi, servers for OTA updates, service centers to work on your car, I could go on. My 4Runner is the opposite, it's not reliant on anything except my attention to it's care.
No onboard wifi, no remote start, no infotainment, no over the air updates. The simplicity also makes the parts super cheap. When I bought it, the headlights were very foggy and I considered taking it somewhere to have them re-polished. I assumed new headlights would cost several hundred dollars each but when I looked i was able to find a pair of headlights and new bulbs for under $250 (for comparison, one enclosure for a Stinger is like $600).
I think what I like most about the old SUV is the idea of self-reliance. Get into a modern car and you're reliant on the towers for WiFi, servers for OTA updates, service centers to work on your car, I could go on. My 4Runner is the opposite, it's not reliant on anything except my attention to it's care.
A modern car has features that the 4Runner does not which may be more reliant on connectivity, but the 4Runner doesn’t offer those things so I don’t get it. Without updates the newer car just becomes out of date like the 4Runner.
On top of that, they keep wanting people to finance cars longer and longer to cover the ever increasing costs while keeping monthly payments the same.
We are upto some finance offering 84 mo;s now for a new car purchase, 7 years
Image buying a car today, still making payments on it 5 years from now, and many of the core features stop working because cell network drops support
We are upto some finance offering 84 mo;s now for a new car purchase, 7 years
Image buying a car today, still making payments on it 5 years from now, and many of the core features stop working because cell network drops support
The thing is though, afaik there isn't really any penalty for repaying the loan early. Like I have a 72mo on my car, although I expect it to be resolved long before then. I was originally going to do a 60mo but the finance guy was basically like, the longer loan gives you way more financial flexibility with very little downside.. so yeah.
Depends on the type of Auto Loan you get, if you have good credit then that is largely true, but there are auto loans that "Add On" the full interest at the start of the loan, so there is no prepayment advantage, rarer but still around are also loans that front load the interest, meaning 100% of your payments are paying the interest first until the full interest is paid off, only then do you start to pay the principle
>> the longer loan gives you way more financial flexibility with very little downside.. so yeah.
Yea if there is no prepayment mentalities, it make sense to get the longest loan you can as long as they are not massively increasing the rate with length. never know when something else in your life (job loss, medical, etc) may make it necessary to have that lower payment.
>> the longer loan gives you way more financial flexibility with very little downside.. so yeah.
Yea if there is no prepayment mentalities, it make sense to get the longest loan you can as long as they are not massively increasing the rate with length. never know when something else in your life (job loss, medical, etc) may make it necessary to have that lower payment.
Haha. Not even.
When I bought my car three months ago, the dealer said (and thought it was as insane as I did) that they had multiple lenders who would write 96 and 108 month loans.
When I bought my car three months ago, the dealer said (and thought it was as insane as I did) that they had multiple lenders who would write 96 and 108 month loans.
If you are buying a car and you require 96 months of financing, that's a problem. If you can afford it and the interest rate is low enough why wouldn't you borrow the money?
There was a Reddit thread the other day, apparently a guy financed a Tacoma for 84mo with a payment of like $1002/mo.
My daily driver is 32 years old. Doesn't have any wireless stuff in it other than the radio.
I just bought some LED headlights, and Ima gonna replace the old dim halogens with them next week. Already replaced the tail lights with LEDs, and what a nice improvement!
I just bought some LED headlights, and Ima gonna replace the old dim halogens with them next week. Already replaced the tail lights with LEDs, and what a nice improvement!
please please don't: https://youtu.be/2z5A-COlDPk?t=940
I refuse to drive at night anymore. Headlights are way too bright and a big reason is people putting poorly made and poorly aimed aftermarket headlights on.
I refuse to drive at night anymore. Headlights are way too bright and a big reason is people putting poorly made and poorly aimed aftermarket headlights on.
The video says the LED tail lights aren't as bright. The ones I got for the tail lights are brighter. I still had to get a matching flasher for it.
The LED headlights come with a shade so they shouldn't shine upwards into traffic.
The LED headlights come with a shade so they shouldn't shine upwards into traffic.
Same here. I just wish it could all be better because I know it could. I've been designing computer systems for decades so I know how the sausage is made, and that's why I prefer washing machines with mechanical timers and old microwave ovens and cars with no software in the cabin. If I designed any of these things with software control, the software would work in cooperation with the human operator to provide a superior UX. This stuff is hard and you have to study it to know what you're doing. But most people who build such systems today seem to have no Human Factors training because management doesn't value that skill.
The issue here is with deactivating the key fob radio based remote start, not the cell/internet based service.
On my new car, it goes through a network service you have to subscribe to. Other fun fact: if I lost both electronic keys I would have to pay 1650 to replace them. I dont even like push button start tbh.
Up until 2019 or so the key fob remote start will work forever without a subscription. But for the newest cars they are saying once your subscription to the app and remote service stops, your radio key fob based remote start will stop working also. Some of their models only get support for 3 years, after that it is $8 a month
I'm talking about Subaru, Toyota isn't the only one to pull these shenanigans
The wireless fob for my Prius works pretty well. Except for a known issue with iPads with Apple pencils causing interference and replacing the battery every five years, I’ve never had it malfunction.
But a Prius is effectively an electric car with a gas engine bolted onto the drive train.
But a Prius is effectively an electric car with a gas engine bolted onto the drive train.
> My experience is it's always buggy
You only notice it when it's buggy, that it saves you a lot of mpg, makes the car behave better, ... one hardly notices.
You only notice it when it's buggy, that it saves you a lot of mpg, makes the car behave better, ... one hardly notices.
I recently had a revelation when my 2017 Mazda 6’s battery was dying, only the minimal systems were online. Despite the car having a stick shift, shifting felt clunky and the car felt like it was going to stall unless I gave it higher revs than usual when upshifting. The car would shutter when I turned too hard.
As soon as I replaced the battery, the car went back to normal. I had no idea how many electric systems were factoring into my every day experience, even with a manual transmission.
As soon as I replaced the battery, the car went back to normal. I had no idea how many electric systems were factoring into my every day experience, even with a manual transmission.
A 20-year-old car still has computers in it. 3G is 20 years old as well.
You and me both.
The way I read Toyota's response wasn't "we're going to provide this functionality for free going forward" it was "we're going to strip this functionality from future RF remotes, and make it an app exclusive." They literally said that triple click for remote start is unintended and undocumented.
Existing vehicles may get it re-enabled for free, but next major vehicle refresh I suspect we'll see the RF remotes dumbed-down as hard as possible that you'll pay them a monthly fee to regain the functionality.
Existing vehicles may get it re-enabled for free, but next major vehicle refresh I suspect we'll see the RF remotes dumbed-down as hard as possible that you'll pay them a monthly fee to regain the functionality.
> [...] triple click for remote start is unintended and undocumented.
I have a hard time understanding how a feature like this may be "unintended". Someone needs to add this functionality to the car, it's not like it's an undefined behavior of the circuitry, akin to a C compiler. If they wanted to remove it, they should've just removed it.
I have a hard time understanding how a feature like this may be "unintended". Someone needs to add this functionality to the car, it's not like it's an undefined behavior of the circuitry, akin to a C compiler. If they wanted to remove it, they should've just removed it.
I'm sure those of us that have worked for big companies know that there's no way a feature like this got added unintentionally. It takes hours of meetings, reviews, documentation, QA, and sign offs before functionality like this reaches the buyer. They're making it sound like a crafty programmer right out of college snuck it in somehow.
It didn't get added unintentionally, it was left enabled unintentionally.
Obviously remote start can't be unintentional, but this is the kind of thing that's usually a simple config change away from working. Likely 3rd parties would have RE'd how to enable it in the aftermarket like they have for other cars too.
Obviously remote start can't be unintentional, but this is the kind of thing that's usually a simple config change away from working. Likely 3rd parties would have RE'd how to enable it in the aftermarket like they have for other cars too.
I think that's what is written between the lines here - they will.
I think they saw an easy way to monetize something most might not realize they already have (share holders love recurring revenue).
The backlash now leading to a poor back-pedaling, with the final act being to remove the included non-centralized feature. Overall just an early introduction to the app that will take precedence, leading to the desired subscription income.
They could have taken the route of, 'sorry for not documenting this better' - and keep remote start separate, and actually mention it in the manuals.
Instead they nearly shame users for learning about having the feature and being upset.
I think they saw an easy way to monetize something most might not realize they already have (share holders love recurring revenue).
The backlash now leading to a poor back-pedaling, with the final act being to remove the included non-centralized feature. Overall just an early introduction to the app that will take precedence, leading to the desired subscription income.
They could have taken the route of, 'sorry for not documenting this better' - and keep remote start separate, and actually mention it in the manuals.
Instead they nearly shame users for learning about having the feature and being upset.
It doesn't require a top-quality businessman to instantly recognize this type of subscription approach is supposed to come from those lacking the acumen to provide lasting value.
Hasn't Toyota differentiated itself in the past specifically by trying to provide lasting value?
With thousands of workers marching toward that goal for years?
What happened?
Even the less savvy consumers say WTF, so you can only imagine the cluelessness of the actual "businessmen" involved.
Hasn't Toyota differentiated itself in the past specifically by trying to provide lasting value?
With thousands of workers marching toward that goal for years?
What happened?
Even the less savvy consumers say WTF, so you can only imagine the cluelessness of the actual "businessmen" involved.
My ex bought a new Subaru last year and I was shocked to find out their remote start system is locked behind a similar subscription service. I worked in car sales for a bit years ago, and I had never seen this before. The models that had the option, only required the key fob, same as same as unlocking your doors.
This is not the direction we want to go. Imagine if it was required the be on the subscription plan to use the remote at all, even to unlock your doors. And if you don’t pay the bill, you have to use the key by hand.
This is not the direction we want to go. Imagine if it was required the be on the subscription plan to use the remote at all, even to unlock your doors. And if you don’t pay the bill, you have to use the key by hand.
I bought a 2020 Forester. The only stuff that needs a subscription are things that use the car’s built in cell service:
- remote lock, unlock, start, check status
- see where my car is
- set alarm email notification if my kid leaves a predefined area or drives over a certain speed limit
- blue button for concierge
- red button for emergencies
Three free years then they want $20CAD/yr. I’m usually cranky about these things but this seems like a no brainer.
I’d pay that amount simply for the “human will see if your airbags went off and will cal 911 with your GPS position if you don’t respond.”
- remote lock, unlock, start, check status
- see where my car is
- set alarm email notification if my kid leaves a predefined area or drives over a certain speed limit
- blue button for concierge
- red button for emergencies
Three free years then they want $20CAD/yr. I’m usually cranky about these things but this seems like a no brainer.
I’d pay that amount simply for the “human will see if your airbags went off and will cal 911 with your GPS position if you don’t respond.”
They are actually putting emergency button under subscription?
I'm quite glad that we have mandatory eCall system for all newer cars in EU that must work regardless of any subscription. I think the only difference (but it may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer) is that without subscription it will only call 112, instead of allowing either 112 or their own call center.
I'm quite glad that we have mandatory eCall system for all newer cars in EU that must work regardless of any subscription. I think the only difference (but it may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer) is that without subscription it will only call 112, instead of allowing either 112 or their own call center.
Good question. I’m not sure, actually. How has the emergency button worked for these systems the last 15 years or so with OnStar and such?
Is there a good reason to require cell service to unlock a door or just car companies taking on external dependencies for no reason?
It isn’t “unlock a door.” It’s “unlock a door from your phone regardless of where you are as long as you have cell signal and the car has cell signal, it doesn’t have to be in range of the fob.”
Correct. My fob works the way they have for decades.
With this service I can lock my car from a different city. I can see where it is. I can set a polygon zone where it emails me if my kids leave the city and whatnot.
It requires cell service and servers. So I get that it requires a subscription.
With this service I can lock my car from a different city. I can see where it is. I can set a polygon zone where it emails me if my kids leave the city and whatnot.
It requires cell service and servers. So I get that it requires a subscription.
>I can set a polygon zone where it emails me if my kids leave the city and whatnot.
That is really interesting. How did you handle that conversation with your kids? Or am I imagining that it's a bigger deal than it really is since they've grown up in a world where everything and every one is connected to the internet and tracked all the time?
That is really interesting. How did you handle that conversation with your kids? Or am I imagining that it's a bigger deal than it really is since they've grown up in a world where everything and every one is connected to the internet and tracked all the time?
My kids are 3 and 4 so it’s hypothetical for now… I hope.
But I think it’s a very good question. The way I would handle it is:
“I won’t set an alert. If I ever feel like I have to, you won’t be loaned the car. As always, please endeavour to text me a couple times to help me rest easy that you’re safe. You’ll understand when you’re a dad. If I don’t hear from you I might peek at your location just to know you’re where you planned to be.”
Naturally the conversation is much longer and spans a great many years.
But I think it’s a very good question. The way I would handle it is:
“I won’t set an alert. If I ever feel like I have to, you won’t be loaned the car. As always, please endeavour to text me a couple times to help me rest easy that you’re safe. You’ll understand when you’re a dad. If I don’t hear from you I might peek at your location just to know you’re where you planned to be.”
Naturally the conversation is much longer and spans a great many years.
They have these on ODB2 connectors and have for a while.
It would work on any car. And have some with cell service capable as well. You can use it to monitor specifics on a car (ie oil pressure) in real-time. But you can get cellular enabled ones that would alert you or track the vehicle as well.
You absolutely don’t need something new for this and you can decouple it from your make/model so if you want to swap/change/upgrade or cancel it’s trivial.
It would work on any car. And have some with cell service capable as well. You can use it to monitor specifics on a car (ie oil pressure) in real-time. But you can get cellular enabled ones that would alert you or track the vehicle as well.
You absolutely don’t need something new for this and you can decouple it from your make/model so if you want to swap/change/upgrade or cancel it’s trivial.
I guess I saw it differently - which is, in what world are parents handing over a motor vehicle to their children, and good lord are there going to be a billion+ restrictions/safeguards on what they can do with that vehicle if their parents are not present in it.
Also - tracking when a vehicle leaves a polygon zone feels like a minor subset of the already more privacy invasive "Where is this vehicle" that presumably exists already.
Also - tracking when a vehicle leaves a polygon zone feels like a minor subset of the already more privacy invasive "Where is this vehicle" that presumably exists already.
It'd be nice if you could put your own SIM in though.
I wonder if there is a SIM or if it’s just software managed in some proprietary chip.
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I've found it handy, it not critical.
Cell phone based remote starts handy. I can start the car while out of fob range.
I really only use the cell unlock when I forget to grab the key to get something out of the car. I could walk back inside to get the key, but it ain't worth it.
Cell phone based remote starts handy. I can start the car while out of fob range.
I really only use the cell unlock when I forget to grab the key to get something out of the car. I could walk back inside to get the key, but it ain't worth it.
Honest curiosity, but in what situations do you use it? I'm having a hard time imaging a scenario where I'd want to remotely lock or unlock my car, nevermind starting the engine when it's out of sight
I was on mobile, so I didn't elaborate in my original comment.
Skiing is the most common case for me. On my last run, I'll typically get the car going while I'm on the lift. That means it's ready to drive (not just pre-hot) when I get my ski gear put away.
I think my wife uses it sometimes at work. She's on the far end of the building from her vehicle, so out of range of the fob.
Skiing is the most common case for me. On my last run, I'll typically get the car going while I'm on the lift. That means it's ready to drive (not just pre-hot) when I get my ski gear put away.
I think my wife uses it sometimes at work. She's on the far end of the building from her vehicle, so out of range of the fob.
Sometimes I park outside my garage and then forget if I locked it. It’s nice that I get an email confirmation because it’s too far away to hear the horn.
Peeve: cars/ car owners that lock the car and the horn beeps.
Yeah. I love that my car doesn’t do that when I remotely lock it. They thought it all through.
How else are you going to do it except using a cellular signal? Conventional RF in a tiny key fob only has limited range.
I bought a 2018 Ford, used. It has a built-in wifi, with ATT support.
If I pay $200 per year, I get the full mobile hotspot, wifi, 25GBs per month.
If I don't pay (& I didn't), it does NOT give me wifi access, but remote start from app, location, mileage, any notifications or messages all work, along with journey trackings.
If I pay $200 per year, I get the full mobile hotspot, wifi, 25GBs per month.
If I don't pay (& I didn't), it does NOT give me wifi access, but remote start from app, location, mileage, any notifications or messages all work, along with journey trackings.
$20 / yr is perfectly reasonable. GM wants $50/mo for that service. The basic on/off, lock / unlock function is still $25/mo.
Which Subaru model? I think most of them still have the option for a traditional RF based key fob. I have that on my Crosstrek.
For example:
https://parts.subaru.com/p/Subaru_2021_Crosstrek/Remote-Engi...
Note that in the description they say:
> This Genuine Subaru Accessory is an alternative for customers who do not enroll in STARLINK Safety and Security Plus.
For example:
https://parts.subaru.com/p/Subaru_2021_Crosstrek/Remote-Engi...
Note that in the description they say:
> This Genuine Subaru Accessory is an alternative for customers who do not enroll in STARLINK Safety and Security Plus.
That interesting. I remember those little extra fobs now. It was a 2021 Outback. It’s possible the sales person didn’t make that clear, and just wanted to close the subscription deal. She bought later it later, after the sale, and never looked into it I’m sure.
It’s still lame when you spend $45K on a car and you have to carry and extra device, if you don’t buy the subscription. They definitely want you to buy it though. Interesting to see Toyota try to force it on folks who are used to it being a given.
It’s still lame when you spend $45K on a car and you have to carry and extra device, if you don’t buy the subscription. They definitely want you to buy it though. Interesting to see Toyota try to force it on folks who are used to it being a given.
Uh in this case the “extra device” is your car key
Subaru disabled their telematics system in Massachusetts rather than comply with the state law requiring they give access to independent mechanics. They are incredibly petty.
Never ascribe to pettiness that which is adequately explained by laziness.
As anyone who has built internal infrastructure knows, giving a third party access to a system never designed for third party access isn’t always trivial. Even if the tech is up to scratch, there would still be a need to audit the system top to bottom. Documentation will need to be checked and improved.
Disabling a feature for a tiny number of customers is, by comparison, extremely simple.
As anyone who has built internal infrastructure knows, giving a third party access to a system never designed for third party access isn’t always trivial. Even if the tech is up to scratch, there would still be a need to audit the system top to bottom. Documentation will need to be checked and improved.
Disabling a feature for a tiny number of customers is, by comparison, extremely simple.
Now that we have the MA law, how come CA doesn't have something similar ? Is there something in the works ? Usually, CA is at the forefront of vehicle compliance laws.
CA is on the forefront of emissions controls and other environmental stuff. CA repair laws are owned by anti-repair companies like Apple.
Next Up: Samsung says using the remote control for their TVs require a monthly subscription. /s
It's just as absurd. I had an aftermarket remote start/keyless unlock installed on a car that didn't even have autolocks for less than a year's worth of proposed subscription fees for this. Greedy bastards justs being greedy.
It's just as absurd. I had an aftermarket remote start/keyless unlock installed on a car that didn't even have autolocks for less than a year's worth of proposed subscription fees for this. Greedy bastards justs being greedy.
Of course not, it’s a free service that’s paid for by them displaying ads over your content. It’s so depressing that that isn’t even satire but an actual real thing.
If they can make money on the sale of the item AND then make more money by selling your viewing habits from using the item, why not increase with a subscription remote service? The idea isn't any less asinine than the Toyota ploy.
With the service, you can click channels up or down. Without, you can only change channels in one direction which forces you to view all channels similar to the scene in Toy Story. This also gives all channels impressions, so it would benefit them. Who cares about the user.
Also with the service, the keypad on the remote can also be enabled so you can dial in the channel number directly. This is an upgrade of the basice service to the Pro version for an extra small nominal fee.
With the service, you can click channels up or down. Without, you can only change channels in one direction which forces you to view all channels similar to the scene in Toy Story. This also gives all channels impressions, so it would benefit them. Who cares about the user.
Also with the service, the keypad on the remote can also be enabled so you can dial in the channel number directly. This is an upgrade of the basice service to the Pro version for an extra small nominal fee.
The joke was that Samsung already puts ads on peoples TVs despite them having paid for the TV.
Or, you can buy your TV with Special Offers, so it listens to your conversations via a mic built into the remote and sends you better targeted ads.
Forget the ads. You're going to talk about something, and it's just going to place the order for it. You know you're going to order it anyways, so now you just don't have to. We know what you want and you'll take it and like it.
> This is not the direction we want to go
You are correct this is not the direction consumers want to go, but it is absolutely without a doubt the direction companies want to go.
I used to work at a very large Telco, and it was common practice at the end of the month for the Marketing team to sit around with their feet on the boardroom table and say things like "How about we introduce a $50 fee for event x (i.e. customer downgrades package / customer disconnects / customer changes payment method, etc.) - the event happens 10,000 times per month, so that means we just added half a mil in revenue a month. Done, the whole Marketing team gets a bonus.
A few months later they think of another similar idea, get bonuses again, around and around.
That is literally how it happens.
You are correct this is not the direction consumers want to go, but it is absolutely without a doubt the direction companies want to go.
I used to work at a very large Telco, and it was common practice at the end of the month for the Marketing team to sit around with their feet on the boardroom table and say things like "How about we introduce a $50 fee for event x (i.e. customer downgrades package / customer disconnects / customer changes payment method, etc.) - the event happens 10,000 times per month, so that means we just added half a mil in revenue a month. Done, the whole Marketing team gets a bonus.
A few months later they think of another similar idea, get bonuses again, around and around.
That is literally how it happens.
I was shooting heroin and reading _The Fountainhead_ in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief. "Bad news, detective. We got a situation."
I really thought that one of the worst technological advances was the Smart TV. When my 10 year old Sharp died, the search for a Dumb TV with the same quality as a corresponding Smart TV came up empty. It seems like maybe not connecting a Smart TV and hopefully having vestigial parts inside is the best I can hope for … but it’s just a TV.
Dumb cars might be ridiculously hard to come by, and sooner — maybe — than anticipated; but this seems like a space just waiting for innovation.
All I have to offer is an idea for branding:
LobotomizeMyDevice
Dumb cars might be ridiculously hard to come by, and sooner — maybe — than anticipated; but this seems like a space just waiting for innovation.
All I have to offer is an idea for branding:
LobotomizeMyDevice
It feels inevitable. Between the scent of subscription models in the water, paired with a desire to do away with the concept of ownership and potential of inflated maintenance margins by limiting where vehicles can be serviced, it feels like consumers will "choose" these things because there will be less choice available in the first place as all the manufacturers jump on the bandwagon.
I'm having flashbacks to certain trends in the video game industry. Can't wait for an ad on my dashboard when I start the car offering to unlock AWD for a "season pass" promotion because the always on GPS told the manufacturer the weather forecast was bad.
I'm having flashbacks to certain trends in the video game industry. Can't wait for an ad on my dashboard when I start the car offering to unlock AWD for a "season pass" promotion because the always on GPS told the manufacturer the weather forecast was bad.
> All I have to offer is an idea for branding: LobotomizeMyDevice
#BuyDumb
#BuyDumb
Just don't connect your smart TV to the internet and it will remain "dumb".
Still slow to turn on and off, still makes me pick an input device 100% of the time on startup (not remembering my last selection), still crashes occasionally, still 40% of menu items are advertisements for various services.
That has nothing to do with smart features. That’s most likely related to energy saving features.
It has everything to do with the operating system that it wouldn't have if it weren't a smart device.
Not all smart TVs are like this. Next time, go to the store and ask to have a play around with it.
Some manufacturers have been caught connecting themselves to any open WiFi they can find.
This seems like a bit of an edge case though. How many open WiFi networks are laying about the regular apartment building or house?
This is exactly what I've done with several TVs over the past 5 years.
Skip the internet setup, plug in a chromecast, and never utilize any of the built in "features" of the TV. It's worked great for me so far.
Skip the internet setup, plug in a chromecast, and never utilize any of the built in "features" of the TV. It's worked great for me so far.
Still never going to buy Toyota after this. It’s a symptom that they likely have other bad ideas ready to go.
I was reflecting myself on the brand damage this would have caused. We've always had a thing in our family that a Toyota is a safe, solid purchase. I must have shared that with 10 people or more over the years. Then in the last couple of days since this story broke, I've shared this with 2 or 3 people as a reason to be cautious about buying Toyota.
It baffles me why anyone ever thought this was a good idea. Even if they back down, I'm left with an uncomfortable feeling that Toyota has lost their way.
Brand loyalty is hard to earn and apparently easy to fritter away.
It baffles me why anyone ever thought this was a good idea. Even if they back down, I'm left with an uncomfortable feeling that Toyota has lost their way.
Brand loyalty is hard to earn and apparently easy to fritter away.
I emailed them saying if you are so cheap to do a cash grab in this area what other areas are you sacrificing the quality of your cars to cut costs. I told them how I was disappointed and that something as simple as this would make me consider my second favorite car brand over them. Glad to see they received a lot of backlash.
For what it’s worth, almost every phone call to Toyota corporate in Dallas gets transcribed, categorized, and shared with many employees in the company so it’s worth doing. Emails do too but they show up second after the phone call transcriptions. App reviews on apps like Entune and Enform are read out-loud weekly; sometimes daily.
However, Toyota corporate in Dallas is second fiddle to the Toyota in Japan and has decision making power for only some things. They certainly listen to the customer.
However, Toyota corporate in Dallas is second fiddle to the Toyota in Japan and has decision making power for only some things. They certainly listen to the customer.
It baffles me why anyone ever thought this was a good idea
Because C-level people are judged based on their revenue for the next quarter, not the legacy of the company.
Yet another company ruined by Wall Street, and greed disguised as "maximizing shareholder value."
Because C-level people are judged based on their revenue for the next quarter, not the legacy of the company.
Yet another company ruined by Wall Street, and greed disguised as "maximizing shareholder value."
There’s an assumption that Toyota being a Japanese company will make decisions in a holistic manner that is not driven by corporate greed.
Japan doesn't necessarily have MBA types who pump dying companies full of debt to feed off the carcasses, but there's certainly not any sort of good corporate governance either.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/15/business/corpor...
> Toshiba Corp. said Friday that a subsidiary booked fictitious sales of ¥43.5 billion in 26 transactions recorded only on paper. The scandal may again throw Toshiba into a crisis similar to its massive accounting fraud in 2015... In the troubled conglomerate’s 2015 accounting fraud, Toshiba padded profits by more than ¥200 billion.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/15/business/corpor...
> Toshiba Corp. said Friday that a subsidiary booked fictitious sales of ¥43.5 billion in 26 transactions recorded only on paper. The scandal may again throw Toshiba into a crisis similar to its massive accounting fraud in 2015... In the troubled conglomerate’s 2015 accounting fraud, Toshiba padded profits by more than ¥200 billion.
I’m no expert but am pretty sure Toyota and Toshiba are different companies.
I’m not an expert either, but I can able to notice where a conversation holds up “Japanese corporate governance” as some noteworthy model :)
We all know what happens when people make assumptions…
I have a 2009 Tacoma. I have been getting hounded for years to get a bigger truck, mainly to tote my kids.
It’s like the perfect year car. I still have a backup camera (in the rear view mirror) and automatic windows but it’s otherwise a dumb car and simple 3 dial AC controls. I’ve even repainted it and replaced much of the trim/headlights etc.
It’s by far my favorite truck ever, minus the size, though it’s gotten me out of totally unreasonable situations and even was able to help pull my buddies 2500 diesel out of the woods. So he no longer makes fun of me for it.
With that said, yeah, if I can’t find a similar alternative (no computer dash, none of this type nonsense. ) I guess I’m looking at alternatives. Maybe I’ll get a 2019 tundra in a few years.
It’s like the perfect year car. I still have a backup camera (in the rear view mirror) and automatic windows but it’s otherwise a dumb car and simple 3 dial AC controls. I’ve even repainted it and replaced much of the trim/headlights etc.
It’s by far my favorite truck ever, minus the size, though it’s gotten me out of totally unreasonable situations and even was able to help pull my buddies 2500 diesel out of the woods. So he no longer makes fun of me for it.
With that said, yeah, if I can’t find a similar alternative (no computer dash, none of this type nonsense. ) I guess I’m looking at alternatives. Maybe I’ll get a 2019 tundra in a few years.
I believe I have subscription fatigue. I'm so very tired of all the little subscriptions, rather than "buying" things (such as it is). Part of that is the subscriptions that are easy to add but hard to remove, those really burned me out. Having the guy at my old Internet service say "I thought we were friends" when I called to cancel, really hit the wrong way.
I have two Toyotas and have been considering a third, if we give my wife's old car to our daughter when she starts driving. But this $8/mo for remote start really irked me. The idea of $8/mo for something I use a few times a year, that'd just stick in my craw.
I understand it in the case of cellular network sorts of features, but remote start doesn't seem like one of those.
I have two Toyotas and have been considering a third, if we give my wife's old car to our daughter when she starts driving. But this $8/mo for remote start really irked me. The idea of $8/mo for something I use a few times a year, that'd just stick in my craw.
I understand it in the case of cellular network sorts of features, but remote start doesn't seem like one of those.
Get used to it, that is where we are moving. The "Post Ownership society"
Everything will be a subscription, probably even the air you breath
Everything will be a subscription, probably even the air you breath
"get used to unhealthy, one-sided relationships" (I know, you didn't say you are recommending this)
They have ~15yr of being the official car of people who want to give off that upper middle class aura and moneyed commuters. Not having to seriously compete does crazy things to corporate decision making. This is likely only the tip of the bad idea iceberg.
Edit: You people need to compare MSRPs and check out what adorns the driveways of "nice" places before you tell me Toyota is the people's car.
Edit: You people need to compare MSRPs and check out what adorns the driveways of "nice" places before you tell me Toyota is the people's car.
Toyota giving off an "upper middle class aura"? Like, the ubiquitous/reliable Toyota Corolla?
Not something I've ever associated with the brand. Are you referring to Lexus? (made by Toyota).
Not something I've ever associated with the brand. Are you referring to Lexus? (made by Toyota).
Cheapest cars from prominent vendors here:
Kia: Picanto - €15000
Toyota: New Yaris - €20000
Citroen: C3 - €20000
Nissan: Micra - €20700
Mazda: Mazda2 - €21000
Ford: Makes you go through a configurator, so assuming here this is the cheapest model: Fiesta - €22000
Volkswagen: Polo - €22000
Honda: Civic - €25000
Fiat: Call us or visit a dealer
BMW: i3/X1 - €44000
Kia being the cheapest is no surprise, but Toyota is joint for second place.
Of course, no new car is "the people's car", rather that's usually whichever car from the lower end of the market sold the most 5-10 years ago to be cheap now on the used market. Which ends up mostly being Ford focuses, Toyota corollas and various Nissan and Kia models.
Kia: Picanto - €15000
Toyota: New Yaris - €20000
Citroen: C3 - €20000
Nissan: Micra - €20700
Mazda: Mazda2 - €21000
Ford: Makes you go through a configurator, so assuming here this is the cheapest model: Fiesta - €22000
Volkswagen: Polo - €22000
Honda: Civic - €25000
Fiat: Call us or visit a dealer
BMW: i3/X1 - €44000
Kia being the cheapest is no surprise, but Toyota is joint for second place.
Of course, no new car is "the people's car", rather that's usually whichever car from the lower end of the market sold the most 5-10 years ago to be cheap now on the used market. Which ends up mostly being Ford focuses, Toyota corollas and various Nissan and Kia models.
I know in Japan a Toyota is considered a more upper-crust brand (as opposed to the budget Daihatsu) but Toyotas in North America are solidly the “working class beater” that you own for 20 years and drive until you have literal holes in the floor.
What car manufacturer isn't a "more upper-crust brand" when compared to Daihatsu? Never mind that they were acquired by Toyota 5ish years ago.
> ~15yr of being the official car of people who want to give off that upper middle class aura
A Toyota? Think you're mistaking with a Land Rover or something.
A Toyota? Think you're mistaking with a Land Rover or something.
Different countries would have different symbols/signals, a Land Rover aka a Chelsea Tractor/Wagon is definitely an upper middle class symbol in the UK, but not necessarily everywhere else.
In other countries with either lower income or lower income to car price ratio due to import taxes and road taxes on vehicles I can definitely see a Toyota possibility being a middle class symbol.
The Honda Accord was one in the late 90’s and early 2000’s in quite a few places around the world so the Camry which is quite comparable to the Accord might have been just that too.
Also the Land Cruiser might fill the same niche as the Land Rover does in some places (especially in countries where Land Rover doesn’t have good market penetration or it’s priced way above what the middle class can afford), whilst not a premium SUV per say it too shabby and it ain’t cheap the 5 door version is around £60K in the UK…
And regardless of price of the car the Prius was very popular with the middle class and upper middle class in its early years when it served essentially as an easy virtue signaling for many. At least until plenty of other hybrids/plug-in hybrids came out and ofc Teslas…
Now the Prius is pretty much relegated to Uber and Co. and even that would shift soon enough to full on EV’s at least until governments around the word would start taxing EV charging to compensate for drop in income from fuel duties.
In other countries with either lower income or lower income to car price ratio due to import taxes and road taxes on vehicles I can definitely see a Toyota possibility being a middle class symbol.
The Honda Accord was one in the late 90’s and early 2000’s in quite a few places around the world so the Camry which is quite comparable to the Accord might have been just that too.
Also the Land Cruiser might fill the same niche as the Land Rover does in some places (especially in countries where Land Rover doesn’t have good market penetration or it’s priced way above what the middle class can afford), whilst not a premium SUV per say it too shabby and it ain’t cheap the 5 door version is around £60K in the UK…
And regardless of price of the car the Prius was very popular with the middle class and upper middle class in its early years when it served essentially as an easy virtue signaling for many. At least until plenty of other hybrids/plug-in hybrids came out and ofc Teslas…
Now the Prius is pretty much relegated to Uber and Co. and even that would shift soon enough to full on EV’s at least until governments around the word would start taxing EV charging to compensate for drop in income from fuel duties.
A Toyota Camry is just about the most basic boring utilitarian working class car I can imagine in US culture. See all the other comments.
I don’t disagree but not everyone lives in the US/UK/Germany tho…
I would say that in say Romania or Poland circa 2007 owning a new Camry would definitely make you an upper middle class, owning a Volvo or a BMW Series 5 would you make you quite rich…
I would say that in say Romania or Poland circa 2007 owning a new Camry would definitely make you an upper middle class, owning a Volvo or a BMW Series 5 would you make you quite rich…
Yes, Camry used to an official car for government ministers in India till recent, replacing Ambassador cars, and now getting replaced by Prado or Pajero.
Yep I don’t think people understand that what might be considered a “housekeeper car” in the US can be a luxury around the world even in relatively developed places like Europe and parts of Asia…
What costs $30K in the US can easily cost double as many countries levy high taxes on imported vehicles and that while $30K in the US puts you near the bottom it’s upper middle class salary in many places around the world still.
The average gross wages across many EU members are still below what a new Camry costs…
Looking at hey.car a 2019 Camry Executive with 33K km on it goes for €30K in Germany… The Camry isn’t available in Greece but the Prius Plug-in is and it starts at €40K.
Considering that the average yearly gross income in Greece in 2020 was just under €17K even owning a new Yaris might make you middle class…
What costs $30K in the US can easily cost double as many countries levy high taxes on imported vehicles and that while $30K in the US puts you near the bottom it’s upper middle class salary in many places around the world still.
The average gross wages across many EU members are still below what a new Camry costs…
Looking at hey.car a 2019 Camry Executive with 33K km on it goes for €30K in Germany… The Camry isn’t available in Greece but the Prius Plug-in is and it starts at €40K.
Considering that the average yearly gross income in Greece in 2020 was just under €17K even owning a new Yaris might make you middle class…
Yes, agreed. The first car I bought in 2013, in India was a 30k kilometers, 2009 model year VW Polo. In today's dollars, it was about $6000.
Most mid class or smaller SUVs, local or locally assembled (like Toyota or Ford) are around 10-15k dollars, brand new.
Interestingly, the Ford I bought in US was made & assembled in India..
Most mid class or smaller SUVs, local or locally assembled (like Toyota or Ford) are around 10-15k dollars, brand new.
Interestingly, the Ford I bought in US was made & assembled in India..
Hm, maybe you're from a country where this status claim makes more sense, but where I'm from the Camry, Corolla, Prius, etc. were never seen as anything but dull run-of-the-mill middle class cars. I'd have never considered a Toyota owner a "moneyed commuter" in my life. The status symbol cars here are mainly German brands or Teslas.
Toyota has never been upper middle class. Its Lexus brand is, but Toyota has always been just middle class.
Their explanation sounds pretty plausible, even if they're using it to cover up the actual intent. Hopefully get get rid of this stupid idea once and for all.
BMW did something similar recently. A few years ago, they announced a plan to make Apple CarPlay a subscription service, then walked it back. And now it sounds like they've made plans for similar options (like heated seats) to be a subscription service.[1]
Not like I have any room to talk, I suppose, since I paid for an OTA feature on my Tesla (basic Autopilot, when it was cheap for 1 week), and at least in theory, the "premium connectivity" is a subscription service, even though it's "lifetime" on my car. (Whether or not it's lifetime when I sell the car to someone else is anybody's guess). And heated seats and homelink are standard on my car, but optional on others -- I wouldn't be surprised if heated seats were installed in all cars but just turned on in software. On the flipside, I was actually shocked to learn the non-homelink cars are, in fact, missing parts. It's actually somehow satisfying when an option you don't pay for is not physically installed, and therefore saved the automaker money. I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not.
[1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-...
BMW did something similar recently. A few years ago, they announced a plan to make Apple CarPlay a subscription service, then walked it back. And now it sounds like they've made plans for similar options (like heated seats) to be a subscription service.[1]
Not like I have any room to talk, I suppose, since I paid for an OTA feature on my Tesla (basic Autopilot, when it was cheap for 1 week), and at least in theory, the "premium connectivity" is a subscription service, even though it's "lifetime" on my car. (Whether or not it's lifetime when I sell the car to someone else is anybody's guess). And heated seats and homelink are standard on my car, but optional on others -- I wouldn't be surprised if heated seats were installed in all cars but just turned on in software. On the flipside, I was actually shocked to learn the non-homelink cars are, in fact, missing parts. It's actually somehow satisfying when an option you don't pay for is not physically installed, and therefore saved the automaker money. I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not.
[1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-...
I wouldn't be surprised if heated seats were installed in all cars but just turned on in software.
I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not.
Agreed 100%; alternatively, it's because you actually got what you paid for, nothing less --- or more. The "your car already has the equipment, but you're not allowed to use it" mentality is what really angers people because it violates the concept of ownership.
I'm not sure why, I guess I just like the feeling that it's not merely a software flag that you're paying for, or not.
Agreed 100%; alternatively, it's because you actually got what you paid for, nothing less --- or more. The "your car already has the equipment, but you're not allowed to use it" mentality is what really angers people because it violates the concept of ownership.
This
And to be fair this also means that it's cheap enough to ship it to everybody then charge later. Hence, they're being ultra petty.
And to be fair this also means that it's cheap enough to ship it to everybody then charge later. Hence, they're being ultra petty.
> when an option you don't pay for is not physically installed, and therefore saved the automaker money
Configuration complexity has a cost, too. In some cases it may be cheaper to build them all the same, especially if the low-spec option didn't sell many units and therefore would've had to make/save a lot of money per unit to justify its existence.
But in that case, my humble opinion is that they should simply enable the feature for everyone. Stop pretending there's a no-heated-seat version at all. The complexity of managing a software licensing mess is also significant, and I don't know that they've assigned a cost to the goodwill/bitterness when customers know they're hauling around stuff they can't use unless they agree to be nickel-and-dimed.
It seems Toyota might've just learned that has a cost.
Good.
Configuration complexity has a cost, too. In some cases it may be cheaper to build them all the same, especially if the low-spec option didn't sell many units and therefore would've had to make/save a lot of money per unit to justify its existence.
But in that case, my humble opinion is that they should simply enable the feature for everyone. Stop pretending there's a no-heated-seat version at all. The complexity of managing a software licensing mess is also significant, and I don't know that they've assigned a cost to the goodwill/bitterness when customers know they're hauling around stuff they can't use unless they agree to be nickel-and-dimed.
It seems Toyota might've just learned that has a cost.
Good.
heated seats as a subscription? that's actually hilarious. it's a resistor hooked up to your car battery, i love the idea of paying for that on a monthly basis (in a bad way).
but everybody knows the big money is in brakes-as-a-service
but everybody knows the big money is in brakes-as-a-service
I look forward to this consumer exploitation extending further into the home. Door knob as a service, anyone? Or how about an oven that only tells you what temperature it's reached by remote subscription service?
Can I subscribe monthly, so I can pay only in the winter time? Or more likely, the price will be higher when its cold out.
Making custom wiring harnesses for each option would likely be cost prohibited and needlessly complex. If one model has an option, it's likely that all vehicles of the same model are also wired for that feature. Adding features may be as simple as changing out the seats and adding a switch.
This is an excellent article. Rarely do I see media targeted at a popular audience actually explain technical systems / operating logic like was done here.
They should get rid of RF and have the fob send a message through AWS instead. That way they'll have servers to maintain and they'll be able to justify the subscription cost.
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Recent and related:
Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29543194 - Dec 2021 (716 comments)
Toyota owners have to pay $8/month to keep using their key fob for remote start - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29543194 - Dec 2021 (716 comments)
We're getting decent in home internet-of-things automation standards in the form of Matter (fingers crossed it's good enough)... what about out of home standards? I want to think of what a bring your own fob system would look like.
But there's so many layers. How is the car presentable? Can i being my own sim? What if i want to upgrade to 6g? 7g? Can i upgrade the modem?
Then the fob... kind of an interesting counter challenge. Anything with an internet connection, that can control the iot device? Does it work across public internet? Does it need to join a personal vpn? Does the car have it's own vpn it signs into? Can the fob be controlled? Maybe i want to geolocate the fob, or make it beep. Who iot controls the iot controller?
Imo i still really really though Webinos project had their heads best screwed on to handle all of this. It was a neat vpn ish system. I really want to get out of the days of all products being totalized experiences, that the product has tonhave all possible control options built in that you'd want. I want tech to be a start, to offer options. We've really walked back the great intertwingularizing, de-api'ed the world, after a very promising exciting ~2010 that failed to deliver every prpduct has gone on it's own. It sucks for this world, is evolutionarily so limited; we shouldnt make each piece of hardware have to produce each and any kind of software anyone might need for it, & we should not limit users to having to suffer what limited offerings the maker can muster.
But there's so many layers. How is the car presentable? Can i being my own sim? What if i want to upgrade to 6g? 7g? Can i upgrade the modem?
Then the fob... kind of an interesting counter challenge. Anything with an internet connection, that can control the iot device? Does it work across public internet? Does it need to join a personal vpn? Does the car have it's own vpn it signs into? Can the fob be controlled? Maybe i want to geolocate the fob, or make it beep. Who iot controls the iot controller?
Imo i still really really though Webinos project had their heads best screwed on to handle all of this. It was a neat vpn ish system. I really want to get out of the days of all products being totalized experiences, that the product has tonhave all possible control options built in that you'd want. I want tech to be a start, to offer options. We've really walked back the great intertwingularizing, de-api'ed the world, after a very promising exciting ~2010 that failed to deliver every prpduct has gone on it's own. It sucks for this world, is evolutionarily so limited; we shouldnt make each piece of hardware have to produce each and any kind of software anyone might need for it, & we should not limit users to having to suffer what limited offerings the maker can muster.
I want to think of what a bring your own fob system would look like.
Remote start (and entry) was a relatively common aftermarket option long before most people had Internet access, and you can probably still get such systems today.
Remote start (and entry) was a relatively common aftermarket option long before most people had Internet access, and you can probably still get such systems today.
A few days ago, some Tesla owner on HN listed all the reasons it's awesome to have an internet-connected car.
Every item he listed existed before the internet, and in no way requires an internet connection. Except for one thing about using the car as some kind of surveillance camera.
Every item he listed existed before the internet, and in no way requires an internet connection. Except for one thing about using the car as some kind of surveillance camera.
My car's old enough & non-electrical enough that it would probably run even if we EMP'ed the area or dropped a neutron bomb nearby. It mostly sits and looks pretty. So I'm not super in tune with what all this connected car or in-car infotainment & control stuff is about. But it seems sensible enough to me. I'm un-tech/somewhat-un-car, but I think it's really weird what a cantankerous anti-tech 'bah car's were better before internet' / you-dont-need-that view there is that so quickly arises.
It makes sense to me to want to be able to pre-heat a car, even if it's slightly out of wifi range, maybe parked down the street a bit or around the block. I don't have the experience, but I'd like to see some more willingness to accept or consider without jumping to reject. I feel like we're being rash to judge. I don't know what else this is good for, why I'd want it, what it's for. But I believe very strongly in making means possible, in using connectivity to open doors of possibility, extending people's range of agency, giving them force multipliers.
Given the very very very tiny amounts of data it needs, this stuff should be easy, should be free; it's just embarrassing to me that 99.99% of cellular providers make this stuff incredibly difficult/complicated for consumers: it's something Google-Fi for example shamed these fools with, by giving away free data-only sims that use your existing plan. Anyone else doing anything else feels like an old world exploiter. There's nearly no real marginal cost to the network, it's all just profit-motive, and it's a stupid brake on possibility.
Let's take the brakes off. Let's try to leave the doors of perception & possibility open.
It makes sense to me to want to be able to pre-heat a car, even if it's slightly out of wifi range, maybe parked down the street a bit or around the block. I don't have the experience, but I'd like to see some more willingness to accept or consider without jumping to reject. I feel like we're being rash to judge. I don't know what else this is good for, why I'd want it, what it's for. But I believe very strongly in making means possible, in using connectivity to open doors of possibility, extending people's range of agency, giving them force multipliers.
Given the very very very tiny amounts of data it needs, this stuff should be easy, should be free; it's just embarrassing to me that 99.99% of cellular providers make this stuff incredibly difficult/complicated for consumers: it's something Google-Fi for example shamed these fools with, by giving away free data-only sims that use your existing plan. Anyone else doing anything else feels like an old world exploiter. There's nearly no real marginal cost to the network, it's all just profit-motive, and it's a stupid brake on possibility.
Let's take the brakes off. Let's try to leave the doors of perception & possibility open.
In Canada Toyota themselves offer Start+ which is long range starter add-on where you get an extra fob. I initially thought the subscription requirement was to give users a reason to keep buying it.
I like the idea of living with just my phone and nothing more. No keys, just NFC and web based authentication.
I do payments via NFC and I can also use NFC to tap onto public transport.
My apartment complex lives in the 1990s still and issues key fobs for elevator access and hard keys for door access. Their fobs use some esoteric encryption method and cannot be copied so I broke open my apartment key fob, extracted the chip+coil, dremiled a housing into my phone's case and hot glue gun-ed it flush into my phone case.
My office HID card slips under my case.
Tried to extract and embed the chip/coil of my AnytimeFitness gym fob into my phone case but I broke the fob (costing $80 for a replacement - yikes). I might try to find someone that can clone it before trying that again - doesn't work with my $100 FOB scanner.
The building manager won't let me install a smart door lock on my door so I still have to carry keys.
So far, I need to carry 1 key for my door and a fob for gym - everything else I can do by just tapping my phone.
I do payments via NFC and I can also use NFC to tap onto public transport.
My apartment complex lives in the 1990s still and issues key fobs for elevator access and hard keys for door access. Their fobs use some esoteric encryption method and cannot be copied so I broke open my apartment key fob, extracted the chip+coil, dremiled a housing into my phone's case and hot glue gun-ed it flush into my phone case.
My office HID card slips under my case.
Tried to extract and embed the chip/coil of my AnytimeFitness gym fob into my phone case but I broke the fob (costing $80 for a replacement - yikes). I might try to find someone that can clone it before trying that again - doesn't work with my $100 FOB scanner.
The building manager won't let me install a smart door lock on my door so I still have to carry keys.
So far, I need to carry 1 key for my door and a fob for gym - everything else I can do by just tapping my phone.
I like convenience and simplicity too, but I’m also a fan of backups. Having all of my daily routine in one device like that...no thanks.
If your phone just holds a private/public key and your access method relies on an admin portal allowing access to nominated keys (think github) - then you could revoke access to a stolen/lost phone and add access to a new device.
The device could be a phone, it could also be a smart watch. It could be a "smart" fob designed for key exchange. It could be a smart fob surgically embedded offering key exchange.
The device could be a phone, it could also be a smart watch. It could be a "smart" fob designed for key exchange. It could be a smart fob surgically embedded offering key exchange.
cheap backup phone?
I'm the total opposite. I'm so glad that when my phone get stolen or suddenly breaks (like my previous phone did), I can still drive my car, go home, make purchases, etc. and I'll only be locked out of services that (against my wishes) forced some phone based authentication.
There's no reason why you couldn't be offered both, access via your phone and a physical key/fob.
If access is granted digitally (rather than being statically issued via fob), then you could be able to grant people permission to enter dynamically. That way any number of devices could service the role of being a key.
You could use a phone, you could use a smart watch, you could use a QR code, you could use a smart fob or even something like a surgically embedded smart fob (into your hand).
Perhaps something as simple as SSH style private/public key exchange would suffice.
You could allow access to your apartment, car, workplace, gym through a web portal. Much like Github repository permission, match access to a person's identity. Perhaps you give some people free access while others you'd like to see a push notification for.
As far as security goes, while a fob is stealabe and cloneable, digital identities (think oauth-oidc) are significantly harder to obtain ilictly and it's also probably cheaper than the fob system.
If access is granted digitally (rather than being statically issued via fob), then you could be able to grant people permission to enter dynamically. That way any number of devices could service the role of being a key.
You could use a phone, you could use a smart watch, you could use a QR code, you could use a smart fob or even something like a surgically embedded smart fob (into your hand).
Perhaps something as simple as SSH style private/public key exchange would suffice.
You could allow access to your apartment, car, workplace, gym through a web portal. Much like Github repository permission, match access to a person's identity. Perhaps you give some people free access while others you'd like to see a push notification for.
As far as security goes, while a fob is stealabe and cloneable, digital identities (think oauth-oidc) are significantly harder to obtain ilictly and it's also probably cheaper than the fob system.
While I appreciate your stance, I am constantly amazed at how many people are happy to use NFC. It's demonstrably insecure [0], and using it for payment at the moment is only secure through obscurity. If it becomes more-prevalent, we will see more cases of pay-info theft attacks [1].
0. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/drive-nfc-hack-work/ 1. https://ajinabraham.com/blog/stealing-card-details-from-cont...
0. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/drive-nfc-hack-work/ 1. https://ajinabraham.com/blog/stealing-card-details-from-cont...
NFC is just a communications protocol - what you choose to send down that pipe is up to you, and we have battle-tested cryptography that provides key exchange & encryption over an insecure channel.
> using it for payment at the moment is only secure through obscurity
EMV payments over NFC are mostly secure - there might be one-off exploits here and there but I wouldn't call it insecure. There are other protocols besides EMV such as magstripe contactless which are insecure but they're intended to replicate equally-insecure magnetic stripes, but that's more down to a certain country's reluctance to adopt modern payment systems rather than a fault of NFC.
With regards to stealing card details, keep in mind that the cardholder is not liable for card-not-present fraud unless 3D-Secure authentication was used.
> using it for payment at the moment is only secure through obscurity
EMV payments over NFC are mostly secure - there might be one-off exploits here and there but I wouldn't call it insecure. There are other protocols besides EMV such as magstripe contactless which are insecure but they're intended to replicate equally-insecure magnetic stripes, but that's more down to a certain country's reluctance to adopt modern payment systems rather than a fault of NFC.
With regards to stealing card details, keep in mind that the cardholder is not liable for card-not-present fraud unless 3D-Secure authentication was used.
Re [1]: if you're using the camera to read the CVV, why not just flip the card over and capture the number?
If the card is embossed you wouldn't even need to flip it!
If the card is embossed you wouldn't even need to flip it!
Is WeChat style QR code payments safer than the NFC payment method?
Given NFC payments require you to unlock your phone, does that make them secure?
Given NFC payments require you to unlock your phone, does that make them secure?
This feels like peak artificial scarcity...or some sort of dystopian capitalism run amok.
Speaking as someone who's intimately familiar with automotive maintenance (its my job) your best bet if you're in the market for a car is always used. You'll miss out on the latest fad gadgets but most cars in the last decade are reliable to at least 250k miles and don't pull these kind of cash grab gimmicks.
The nicest thing you can get is off brand luxury. Hyundai equus or any Acura is going to meet and exceed your expectations for comfort and performance well after 100k miles, .and your insurance is lower because they aren't a painted target for theft. Crooks want Mercedes rims, they generally don't care about what's rolling along on a Chrysler 300
Speaking as someone who's intimately familiar with automotive maintenance (its my job) your best bet if you're in the market for a car is always used. You'll miss out on the latest fad gadgets but most cars in the last decade are reliable to at least 250k miles and don't pull these kind of cash grab gimmicks.
The nicest thing you can get is off brand luxury. Hyundai equus or any Acura is going to meet and exceed your expectations for comfort and performance well after 100k miles, .and your insurance is lower because they aren't a painted target for theft. Crooks want Mercedes rims, they generally don't care about what's rolling along on a Chrysler 300
What’s your take on all the new vehicles these days with their auto engine start/stop and cylinder deactivation tech? I can’t imagine these will make for dependable used vehicles. I believe Honda settled a class action suit related to their Variable Cylinder Management tech (https://www.autoblog.com/2013/10/23/honda-settles-class-acti...). Even current owners are still complaining of issues. It was enough to put me off from buying a V6 Honda.
Wait until the power train has been out for a while and look at reviews of vehicles that use it. Most cars have some problems but at least you'll know what you're signing up for. Some of the newer hybrid tech etc sounds complicated but mechanically isn't really that much more so than a regular automatic transmission. I look at all the Priuses running around doing taxi and delivery duty in my area for the last 15+ years, I figure if there were any major problems we would know.
cylinder deactivation has been a settled technology for about a decade now. northstar engines did it...to varying degrees of belt-eating self destruction...its likely a great option for long-haul drivers that spent a good deal of time at one speed.
as for auto start-stop, it smacks of desperation. every one of these systems more than doubles the load on the starter motor without giving any concrete numbers for expected fuel or carbon savings. its also worth remembering starting a car includes a fueling requirement itself.
as for auto start-stop, it smacks of desperation. every one of these systems more than doubles the load on the starter motor without giving any concrete numbers for expected fuel or carbon savings. its also worth remembering starting a car includes a fueling requirement itself.
One edition of the owner's manual for the Mitsubishi Mirage (Space Star in certain parts of the world) has CO² emissions figures as measured under both the old NEDC and the new WLTC standards. For the smaller 1000 ccm engine model in combination with manual transmission, start-stop saves a measly 1 g/km as measured per NEDC, and actually uses 1 g/km more if measured according to the WLTC.
Just as a counterpoint, I'm currently in the market for an electric car (fuel is >$8/gal here).
Due to the way taxes work here, you can get effectively more than 40% off a company car EV lease through salary sacrifice. All in, I could get a 4 year lease for more than 60% less than a 4 year car loan - with the caveat that I won't have the option of paying a balloon payment to take ownership at the end, but it still works out far better financially to do the lease. The lease also includes insurance, servicing and various other things. I also have heard pretty sketchy things about second hand EVs so would rather wait for that market to develop more.
The problem with leases is I can't pick my trim. If every car was manufactured with the same trim but used software unlock for features, I could just lease the standard model then pay for extra performance, better autopilot, keyless unlock, etc. month to month. It would also be great for hired cars where I could get in the car and pay £5 to unlock the upgraded model for 2 weeks.
Basically, what I'm saying is being able to subscribe to a car and add-on features at runtime is actually an improvement for me. I get it's absolutely not for everyone, but I personally would like it.
Due to the way taxes work here, you can get effectively more than 40% off a company car EV lease through salary sacrifice. All in, I could get a 4 year lease for more than 60% less than a 4 year car loan - with the caveat that I won't have the option of paying a balloon payment to take ownership at the end, but it still works out far better financially to do the lease. The lease also includes insurance, servicing and various other things. I also have heard pretty sketchy things about second hand EVs so would rather wait for that market to develop more.
The problem with leases is I can't pick my trim. If every car was manufactured with the same trim but used software unlock for features, I could just lease the standard model then pay for extra performance, better autopilot, keyless unlock, etc. month to month. It would also be great for hired cars where I could get in the car and pay £5 to unlock the upgraded model for 2 weeks.
Basically, what I'm saying is being able to subscribe to a car and add-on features at runtime is actually an improvement for me. I get it's absolutely not for everyone, but I personally would like it.
If you’re leasing all the time, isn’t that basically a subscription, where you get a newer model every few years (like Apple does with their phone plans)?
It increases the opportunity cost of not fixing an old vehicle. Most people might balk at an engine rebuild, for example, but if it's that versus a new vehicle that has an added ongoing subscription fee -- it makes car repair seem relatively cheaper.
So, my trick is: buy an older but high quality car for peanuts, then pre-emptively redo everything that has worn, including an engine rebuild if that's what it takes. The end result is a car that is priced roughly 30 to 35% of the equivalent new vehicle cheap to insure, and with the added benefit of plentiful aftermarket parts and a lack of electronics that get in the way of driving the thing. I've done this twice now and I'm not going back to driving young or new.
Also, if you do want the convenience of a new car - there are good ex-demo cars available. Usually high-spec, with a good discount, after being driven a very short distance to show off the model by the dealer. They come with the warranty.
Yeah but as practical as a Sonata may be it doesn't scream "I have money but I'm modest, I swear" with nearly the volume of a Solara[1]
[1] Yes I know they don't make it anymore, I was going for the alliteration.
[1] Yes I know they don't make it anymore, I was going for the alliteration.
I personally sent Toyota an email and they gave me an unsatisfactory response claiming stuff about connected services and then I linked last weeks article explaining that the key fob remote start had nothing to do with connected services and that it seems like a cheap cash grab. And if they are so cheap to do a cash grab what other cost savings at the detriment of their vehicles are they doing. I am very happy to see they are considering reversing their decision.
What is the point of remote start with a modern vehicle in the 21st Century? Report of this blowback reminds me of "Everything Is Amazing, and No One is Happy." [1] Perhaps in the 1970's during Winter in the Northern regions, remote start might have once had a valid reason to exist, but not any more. "Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter."[2] So who are these idiots insisting on wasting their own money and gas for absolutely no personal benefit while spewing atmospheric carbon and air pollution?
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4
[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/29/the-b...
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4
[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/29/the-b...
Have you ever been somewhere cold? Starting the car and getting the defrosters and heat going is helpful when your windows are covered in ice/snow. Depending on the conditions I think it can even be extremely difficult to open a car door without hot water or a remote start. Plus, it is nice to have a warm car rather then sit in the cold until it warms up.
Even without a remote start most people will go out and start their car and let it warm up and the windows defrost so they can safely drive. Sure you can also scrape them to get ice/snow off but you typically also need the heat running for a bit to get them defogged or whatever.
Even without a remote start most people will go out and start their car and let it warm up and the windows defrost so they can safely drive. Sure you can also scrape them to get ice/snow off but you typically also need the heat running for a bit to get them defogged or whatever.
That's exactly right. A couple weeks ago I decided I'd scrape all the ice off the windows before starting my car.. and then off I went and immediately had to pull up at a bus stop 150m from where I started because the windshield totally fogged up and I couldn't see a thing. Winterland funland.
> Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter."[2]
These “experts” must never have actually been in a harsh winter. Apart from electric cars, modern cars are absolutely not pleasant when it’s 0F out after just 30 seconds of running.
These “experts” must never have actually been in a harsh winter. Apart from electric cars, modern cars are absolutely not pleasant when it’s 0F out after just 30 seconds of running.
> Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter
Auto experts who have never lived anywhere north of Tucson, maybe.
Auto experts who have never lived anywhere north of Tucson, maybe.
Those "idiots" are people who don't like sitting in a car with sub-40F air in it while the heater works.
Free software is of fundamental importance as computing becomes a part of everything. The day is coming when you won't even be able to control your own thermostat.
I just want a car that doesn’t need a cell signal or have a black monitor in the middle of the dash.
Never buying new again at this point.
Never buying new again at this point.
How do you get the 3 year trial subscription? My Camry is barely a year old, and I've used up my trial. They spammed me relentlessly trying to get me to sign up for the subscription, for a service I never actually used.
I’d seriously look at another company if this was an option, it sets a horrible impression.
I buy a good car so I don’t have to have a lot of reoccurring costs…
I buy a good car so I don’t have to have a lot of reoccurring costs…
Much like "dumb" TVs without ads, or phones without headphone jacks, my fear is that in the cycle time between one replacement and the next, these kind of revenue extraction models will have gone from nonpresent to omnipresent in a single replacement cycle
Yeah I worry we can’t escape it.
Hopefully third parties can still install things?
Hopefully third parties can still install things?
Exactly. What a weird hill to die on. Im about to blow 35k on a vehicle and you are going to insult me over a few $100. Why?
What do you use remote start for?
Usually to start the car in winter so the heater is going and it can defrost windows if needed.
Indeed, and depending on options also the mirrors too.
With remote start you can walk up with an ice scraper/snow shovel and push the slurry right off then be on your way. Otherwise, you'll have to sit in the cold car for 5~10 minutes while the ice softens, then get back out and push it off (and that assumes your doors haven't frozen shut).
A lot of people in warmer climates think idling is something only jerks do, those in colder areas realize you cannot safely operate your vehicle without idling with the heater running full-bore.
PS - And while garages are an even better solution, it isn't realistic to expect nobody to live in town homes/apartments.
With remote start you can walk up with an ice scraper/snow shovel and push the slurry right off then be on your way. Otherwise, you'll have to sit in the cold car for 5~10 minutes while the ice softens, then get back out and push it off (and that assumes your doors haven't frozen shut).
A lot of people in warmer climates think idling is something only jerks do, those in colder areas realize you cannot safely operate your vehicle without idling with the heater running full-bore.
PS - And while garages are an even better solution, it isn't realistic to expect nobody to live in town homes/apartments.
In Poland there is a law that you can't run engine in your parked car for over a minute (if there are houses nearby). If you do, you can get a fine. It is considered excessive pollution and noise generation.
And we get winters where temperature drops to below -25C
It's not super strictly observed but people are concious of that and try to keep the defrost time to minimum rather scraping the ice physically than running engine for 10 minutes so the can just push off the slurry.
And we get winters where temperature drops to below -25C
It's not super strictly observed but people are concious of that and try to keep the defrost time to minimum rather scraping the ice physically than running engine for 10 minutes so the can just push off the slurry.
Generally I'd agree with that and I never leave the engine running just to save myself the bother of scraping (and ideally I've remembered to cover the windscreen with a plane the night before so I only have to scrape the side windows), but I'd make one exception: Sometimes the weather conditions are such that the windscreen immediately starts icing/fogging over again, in which case you really need to leave the motor running at least two or three minutes for the heater to at least minimally start working, so you can actually see where you're going.
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Too late, already skipped Toyota dealerships when I went shopping for my car.
This would make me return the car.
Probably not (I mean, really...if you're otherwise invested, it's unlikely this one thing would make you go through the hassle.)
That said...it might be the LAST one you buy, and you'll take the opportunity to tell everyone you know how slimy the manufacturer is.
Potentially much more financially damaging than one person returning one car.
(I'm looking at YOU, Samsung.)
That said...it might be the LAST one you buy, and you'll take the opportunity to tell everyone you know how slimy the manufacturer is.
Potentially much more financially damaging than one person returning one car.
(I'm looking at YOU, Samsung.)
That’s a good point, let me rephrase by saying I would not purchase the car in the first place. This is something that would stop me cold in my tracks.
It's interesting to see the discussion here about used cars and the relative value of them.
Cars are going the same way as phones, EVs will have substantially less mechanical maintenance required and will be much easier to recycle.
The "used" car market will disappear in the same way that people recycle phones. Yes, there might be some transfer of the physical car, but using it will require your subscription to "Personal Mobility As A Service", combined with road usage charges that are derived from distance charging, instead of the proxy of an excise/tax on gasoline/petroleum.
The Tesla business model is where the industry is headed. Dealerships, with the franchised model that developed, will disappear.
For EU, it's happening faster, as part of the phase out of ICE cars. Expect it by ~2030.
Cars are going the same way as phones, EVs will have substantially less mechanical maintenance required and will be much easier to recycle.
The "used" car market will disappear in the same way that people recycle phones. Yes, there might be some transfer of the physical car, but using it will require your subscription to "Personal Mobility As A Service", combined with road usage charges that are derived from distance charging, instead of the proxy of an excise/tax on gasoline/petroleum.
The Tesla business model is where the industry is headed. Dealerships, with the franchised model that developed, will disappear.
For EU, it's happening faster, as part of the phase out of ICE cars. Expect it by ~2030.
I don't see how this can become reality unless the price of electric vehicles declines dramatically, or if a large percentage of the population no longer owns cars. Paying over €20k per year for owning a car isn't feasible for many. I'm assuming you think these people are going to rent cars rather than own them, but that usually seems to entail a much higher cost per distance, even ignoring fuel costs. Can you elaborate on how you think this market is going to operate and what this world would look like for its inhabitants?
Also the cell connection seems problematic. Like, 4 years ago I bought my uncle a phone, and I just got notice that I have to upgrade him because t-mobiles 3g is going away. How many of my cars fancy connected features will work in 4 years?