Launch HN: Atmana (YC S21) – An app to help cut down on compulsive porn usage
195 comments
As somebody who had a porn addiction (as in: I feel my consumption negatively impacted my life) I don't understand why some commenters here say it's "only" treating a symptom.
Sure, if I'd felt more engaged in other areas during my youth, I might not have started consuming porn. And I might not have stopped consuming if it weren't for changes in my life that prompted me to do so. But please, when treating addiction you can't try to solve all the other problematic patterns in a person's life. Often only after resolving the addiction people are enabled to address their other pain-points.
If this app -- and I wouldn't trust that thing on any of my devices -- helps people get off porn when they want to get off of it, I don't see how this is problematic. Or any more problematic than the use of apps for making life decisions in general.
There are many ways to manage one's habits and if something else works for you, good for you. That doesn't invalidate the approach chosen for the app.
Sure, if I'd felt more engaged in other areas during my youth, I might not have started consuming porn. And I might not have stopped consuming if it weren't for changes in my life that prompted me to do so. But please, when treating addiction you can't try to solve all the other problematic patterns in a person's life. Often only after resolving the addiction people are enabled to address their other pain-points.
If this app -- and I wouldn't trust that thing on any of my devices -- helps people get off porn when they want to get off of it, I don't see how this is problematic. Or any more problematic than the use of apps for making life decisions in general.
There are many ways to manage one's habits and if something else works for you, good for you. That doesn't invalidate the approach chosen for the app.
Exactly. When I was on antidepressants but not actively having therapy, that was "only treating the symptoms". But it actually freed up my mind to allow me to adjust my mental state
I would assume this is similar, if you cut down the porn, it gives you time to clear your head and consider how to adjust your lifestyle to a more healthy balance
I would assume this is similar, if you cut down the porn, it gives you time to clear your head and consider how to adjust your lifestyle to a more healthy balance
Porn working similar to drugs, especially heroin, and many people underestimate it. There are few interesting research papers about.
This is a refreshingly wholesome startup. Well done!
I am really interested in the social media blocking. I have been quitting social media for 5 or 6 years now. The hardest for me was Quora, I think. I don't know why, they where like the mafia: "Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in" What worked for me was blocking them on the router and the hosts files[0]. This meant there where two steps to unlocking a blocked site. And for extra friction I used a long router password and don't save it. The longer it takes you to reach the thing, the more opportunity to change your mind.
The good news is that social media addiction is relatively quick and painless to cure. I stopped missing them after about a week.
And there are a lot of positive outcomes from quitting this stuff (especially for doomscrollers and dopamine junkies ;) I have been quitting a lot of stuff recently like sugar, sweeteners, coffee, carbs and processed food! And for a little while it's rough. Quitting anything will be rough for at least a few days. But as you strip away more sources of artificial dopamine stimulation, the body compensates, or maybe you just become more sensitive to it. Real life starts to give you some of that dopamine buzz that you where chasing online (or in a can of diet soda!)
But but now I start to feel little dopamine kicks whenever I take some small positive action like doing some exercise or fasting, or walking past the junk food.
[0] crowd sourced hosts files to block ads, social-media and porn: https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts
I am really interested in the social media blocking. I have been quitting social media for 5 or 6 years now. The hardest for me was Quora, I think. I don't know why, they where like the mafia: "Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in" What worked for me was blocking them on the router and the hosts files[0]. This meant there where two steps to unlocking a blocked site. And for extra friction I used a long router password and don't save it. The longer it takes you to reach the thing, the more opportunity to change your mind.
The good news is that social media addiction is relatively quick and painless to cure. I stopped missing them after about a week.
And there are a lot of positive outcomes from quitting this stuff (especially for doomscrollers and dopamine junkies ;) I have been quitting a lot of stuff recently like sugar, sweeteners, coffee, carbs and processed food! And for a little while it's rough. Quitting anything will be rough for at least a few days. But as you strip away more sources of artificial dopamine stimulation, the body compensates, or maybe you just become more sensitive to it. Real life starts to give you some of that dopamine buzz that you where chasing online (or in a can of diet soda!)
But but now I start to feel little dopamine kicks whenever I take some small positive action like doing some exercise or fasting, or walking past the junk food.
[0] crowd sourced hosts files to block ads, social-media and porn: https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts
great to know that you were actually able to quit social media and other heavy dopamine stimulants. this is inspiring!
any specific resources/framework/books that helped you along this journey?
any specific resources/framework/books that helped you along this journey?
Off the top of my head no, most of my insight came from observing addiction in others, and experimenting over the course of a decade. However, the two books which I guess started me on this journey are Why We Get Fat by Garry Taube [0] and The 4 Hour Body by Tim Ferris [1]. Both of these books take a scientific approach to diet (which is governed by habit and addiction, after all).
I will say this, I am convinced that for a lot of addictions, all you can do is substitute one addiction for another. But if the new addiction is something healthy, then I think that is fine. But if you do become a diet addict, keep it scientific, don't follow every blogspam diet fad.
For social-media, I substituted a typing instructor game. So when ever I felt the urge to go doomscrolling or something, I would fire up a typing game instead. I keep a windows VM on hand just to play TypingMaster. It takes 3-5 minutes to complete one of the training sessions (which is probably less than you would have wasted on twitter). This helps kill the urge, and break the cycle. Plus it makes me a better typist. And when you can do 90wpm on QWERTY, switch to DVORAK.
If you have a common chemical addiction like smoking, coffee, pain killers, alchohol then the only safe approach is the taper/step down. Measure how much you take now and then commit to reducing that amount by about 10% per week. So you smoke 18 a day instead of 20 in your first week. That's not so hard, right? Whatever you do, NEVER try cold turkey quitting any chemical, at least not before seeing a doctor. Chemical withdrawals range from terrible headaches for coffee, to deadly DTs from alcohol.
[0] http://garytaubes.com/works/books/why-we-get-fat
[1] https://fourhourbody.com
I will say this, I am convinced that for a lot of addictions, all you can do is substitute one addiction for another. But if the new addiction is something healthy, then I think that is fine. But if you do become a diet addict, keep it scientific, don't follow every blogspam diet fad.
For social-media, I substituted a typing instructor game. So when ever I felt the urge to go doomscrolling or something, I would fire up a typing game instead. I keep a windows VM on hand just to play TypingMaster. It takes 3-5 minutes to complete one of the training sessions (which is probably less than you would have wasted on twitter). This helps kill the urge, and break the cycle. Plus it makes me a better typist. And when you can do 90wpm on QWERTY, switch to DVORAK.
If you have a common chemical addiction like smoking, coffee, pain killers, alchohol then the only safe approach is the taper/step down. Measure how much you take now and then commit to reducing that amount by about 10% per week. So you smoke 18 a day instead of 20 in your first week. That's not so hard, right? Whatever you do, NEVER try cold turkey quitting any chemical, at least not before seeing a doctor. Chemical withdrawals range from terrible headaches for coffee, to deadly DTs from alcohol.
[0] http://garytaubes.com/works/books/why-we-get-fat
[1] https://fourhourbody.com
"Whatever you do, NEVER try cold turkey quitting any chemical, at least not before seeing a doctor."
This is terribly wrong information, to the point of causing more harm to people who take it seriously.
The ONLY common addictions that can possibly hurt you physically in withdrawal are Alcohol and Benzodiazapines (Valium, Xanax, Ativan, etc) and a family of related, common tranquilizers). And even then, you have to be a daily user to be at risk of harmful withdrawal... Unless you are actively getting drunk to avoid withdrawal symptoms, you are NOT in this risk group.
It is NOT possible to physically hurt yourself by cold-turkey quitting caffeine, nicotine, cocaine, amphetamines, MDMA, hallucinogens, or opiates. You may feel like you're gonna die, but you simply cannot hurt yourself due to quitting these substances. Mostly, you'll just be uncomfortable.
This distinction is REALLY important, because the fear of withdrawal (and life without a fix, generally) is already hugely terrifying to addicts who realize that they have a problem. But many (too many!) of these people have no access to a trusted doctor, and fear judgement, legal consequences, or termination of care if they seek medical help.
Please correct your comment, and stop feeding uninformed myths that have zero medical basis. Educate yourself before you give people any more advice on how to deal with chemical addictions.
(FWIW, I'm not a doctor, but I've spent plenty of time in 12-step meetings, and used & quit plenty of drugs.)
This is terribly wrong information, to the point of causing more harm to people who take it seriously.
The ONLY common addictions that can possibly hurt you physically in withdrawal are Alcohol and Benzodiazapines (Valium, Xanax, Ativan, etc) and a family of related, common tranquilizers). And even then, you have to be a daily user to be at risk of harmful withdrawal... Unless you are actively getting drunk to avoid withdrawal symptoms, you are NOT in this risk group.
It is NOT possible to physically hurt yourself by cold-turkey quitting caffeine, nicotine, cocaine, amphetamines, MDMA, hallucinogens, or opiates. You may feel like you're gonna die, but you simply cannot hurt yourself due to quitting these substances. Mostly, you'll just be uncomfortable.
This distinction is REALLY important, because the fear of withdrawal (and life without a fix, generally) is already hugely terrifying to addicts who realize that they have a problem. But many (too many!) of these people have no access to a trusted doctor, and fear judgement, legal consequences, or termination of care if they seek medical help.
Please correct your comment, and stop feeding uninformed myths that have zero medical basis. Educate yourself before you give people any more advice on how to deal with chemical addictions.
(FWIW, I'm not a doctor, but I've spent plenty of time in 12-step meetings, and used & quit plenty of drugs.)
Psychiatrist here. This is true, and most people find recovery eventually without a formal program. Working with a doctor can make it much less comfortable in many cases--and in the case of opioids, can offer several options that can be lifesaving by preventing return to use and overdose.
"This is terribly wrong information, to the point of causing more harm to people who take it seriously."
^ this is generally correct for many of the classes of substances mentioned; however, it is also terribly wrong information concerning Opiate withdrawal.
I'm not sure in terms of case numbers - people can and do die from Opiate withdrawal due to vomiting and diarrhea leading to dehydration and/or heart failure due to elevated sodium levels.
This is clearly very preventable from a harm reduction perspective with the correct information.
^ this is generally correct for many of the classes of substances mentioned; however, it is also terribly wrong information concerning Opiate withdrawal.
I'm not sure in terms of case numbers - people can and do die from Opiate withdrawal due to vomiting and diarrhea leading to dehydration and/or heart failure due to elevated sodium levels.
This is clearly very preventable from a harm reduction perspective with the correct information.
Correct, dehydration-related complications are possible during opioid withdrawal, and I agree that it's hard to put a number on cases. The other significant risk is suicidality, which is very common during opioid withdrawal. In general, I tend not to recommend full, rapid, medically-supervised (or unsupervised) withdrawal from opioids, as the best option for most people is a transition to opioid agonist therapy with buprenorphine or methadone--which have profound mortality benefits. There are always exceptions--especially in people who prefer antagonist therapy with long-acting injectable naltrexone--but agonist therapy has the most data.
Ok, in the light of day I was following the precautionary principle a bit too closely. I wasn't thinking of MDMA.
However, you, like your peers, are downplaying withdrawal in general. The physiology of addiction is still quite mysterious. Race, gender, age, location and experience all modulate withdrawal symptoms. Just looking at the top 3 consumer addictions you find, e.g.
Caffeine withdrawal symptoms: impaired behavioral and cognitive performance, decreased or increased blood pressure, decreased motor activity, increased heart rate, hand tremor, increased diuresis, skin flushing, flu-like symptoms, nausea/vomiting, constipation, muscle stiffness, joint pains, and abdominal pain https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430790/
Nicotine withdrawal symptoms: anxiety, awakening during sleep, depression, difficulty concentrating, impatience, irritability/anger and restlessness. Slowing of the heart rate and weight gain are distinguishing features of tobacco withdrawal. Although nicotine withdrawal may not produce medical consequences, it lasts for several weeks and can be severe in some smokers. Like most other drug withdrawals, nicotine withdrawal is time-limited, occurs in non-humans, is influenced by instructions/expectancy and abates with replacement therapy and gradual reduction. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1360-0443....
Codeine: Negative emotions, such as depression, anger, or irritability anxiety and restlessness, shedding tears, difficulty concentrating, dilated pupils, headaches, sinus congestion and sneezing, digestive problems, such as diarrhea, bloating, and constipation, stomach pain and nausea, chills or hot flashes, intense muscle aches, bone and joint aches and pains, tremors and shaking, trouble sleeping
For many people, withdrawal symptoms are similar to those of a more severe bout of flu. A person experiencing withdrawal may not be able to work or go to school for several days https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326849
In addition to those symptoms mentioned, there can be significant tertiary affects, as a result of the anxiety, stress and depression, which have been shown to cause acute physical and long term health problems if not treated.
So, at the very least, if you want to go cold turkey, rather than taper slowly, you should do some research on the withdrawal symptoms and how to manage them. Otherwise you are much more likely to fail at quitting.
However, you, like your peers, are downplaying withdrawal in general. The physiology of addiction is still quite mysterious. Race, gender, age, location and experience all modulate withdrawal symptoms. Just looking at the top 3 consumer addictions you find, e.g.
Caffeine withdrawal symptoms: impaired behavioral and cognitive performance, decreased or increased blood pressure, decreased motor activity, increased heart rate, hand tremor, increased diuresis, skin flushing, flu-like symptoms, nausea/vomiting, constipation, muscle stiffness, joint pains, and abdominal pain https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430790/
Nicotine withdrawal symptoms: anxiety, awakening during sleep, depression, difficulty concentrating, impatience, irritability/anger and restlessness. Slowing of the heart rate and weight gain are distinguishing features of tobacco withdrawal. Although nicotine withdrawal may not produce medical consequences, it lasts for several weeks and can be severe in some smokers. Like most other drug withdrawals, nicotine withdrawal is time-limited, occurs in non-humans, is influenced by instructions/expectancy and abates with replacement therapy and gradual reduction. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1360-0443....
Codeine: Negative emotions, such as depression, anger, or irritability anxiety and restlessness, shedding tears, difficulty concentrating, dilated pupils, headaches, sinus congestion and sneezing, digestive problems, such as diarrhea, bloating, and constipation, stomach pain and nausea, chills or hot flashes, intense muscle aches, bone and joint aches and pains, tremors and shaking, trouble sleeping
For many people, withdrawal symptoms are similar to those of a more severe bout of flu. A person experiencing withdrawal may not be able to work or go to school for several days https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326849
In addition to those symptoms mentioned, there can be significant tertiary affects, as a result of the anxiety, stress and depression, which have been shown to cause acute physical and long term health problems if not treated.
So, at the very least, if you want to go cold turkey, rather than taper slowly, you should do some research on the withdrawal symptoms and how to manage them. Otherwise you are much more likely to fail at quitting.
I love your typing idea. I do something similar, but with puzzles on lichess.
thanks, will check out these books.
Some of this is interesting, such as the social media aspect, but I'd like to understand exactly what your motivation is and where your funding is from.
One of the things few people know about the new "porn addiction" websites, including NoFap and "Fight the New Drug" is that there are connections between these groups and the LDS (ie Mormon) church.
It's less about "addiction" than creating a stigma around pornography use by wrapping it in pseudo-science.
While pornography can be addictive, there are other models than absence and restriction that are shown to help all addiction (not just pornography), and I'm wondering if you'd looked into them, or (frankly) if this is just another LSD-funded scheme to turn people off of the idea of porn.
One of the things few people know about the new "porn addiction" websites, including NoFap and "Fight the New Drug" is that there are connections between these groups and the LDS (ie Mormon) church.
It's less about "addiction" than creating a stigma around pornography use by wrapping it in pseudo-science.
While pornography can be addictive, there are other models than absence and restriction that are shown to help all addiction (not just pornography), and I'm wondering if you'd looked into them, or (frankly) if this is just another LSD-funded scheme to turn people off of the idea of porn.
we're completely bootstrapped and haven't taken any external funding yet. we aren't sponsored by any church etc. and have no religious affiliation.
restriction might help all addictions. But, we need to start somewhere, and we have chosen this specific problem. we plan to launch solutions for compulsive usage of technology products in the coming months and years.
restriction might help all addictions. But, we need to start somewhere, and we have chosen this specific problem. we plan to launch solutions for compulsive usage of technology products in the coming months and years.
> we're completely bootstrapped and haven't taken any external funding yet
Didn't you take YC money? That sounds external and not bootstrapped to me. Unless they've changed the rules.
Didn't you take YC money? That sounds external and not bootstrapped to me. Unless they've changed the rules.
Fair point, but I’d assume the parent meant outside of YC. To my knowledge, YC doesn’t have any connections to LDS or the Mormon church. :)
sorry, I missed YC. Other than YC we haven't taken any external funds. I forgot to add this as technically the funds still haven't hit our account (still paperwork is pending).
No pseudo-science is required when you've real solid science:
https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/research/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ru3RQbsaYfM
https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/research/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ru3RQbsaYfM
There is better unbiased sources for science, and the best is simply the medical definition in DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition) or ICD-11 (eleventh revision of the International Classification of Diseases).
There is no addiction or compulsion unless the person is experiencing direct negative consequences to one's physical, mental, social, or financial well-being. I.E, no professional following a medical definition would touch a diagnosis of pornography compulsion unless there is clear documentation that the viewing has been causing negative consequences for the individual. Most likely they would not diagnose anything related to porn usage at all since neither the international standards nor World Health Organization recognize the diagnosis.
What a lot of people also try to imply is that all porn usage causes negative consequences. It is a bit like the prohibition tactic implying that any alcohol consumption causes alcoholism and significant bodily harm. Naturally we won't find a study saying there is no correlation between alcoholism and alcohol consumption, and some of the studies is likely to imply that consumption of alcohol may cause alcoholism. What the more insightful studies show is the risk factors that makes a person more likely to become addicted or get compulsions and what factors gives protection against it. The usual finding in such studies are environmental factors rather than simply consumption.
There is no addiction or compulsion unless the person is experiencing direct negative consequences to one's physical, mental, social, or financial well-being. I.E, no professional following a medical definition would touch a diagnosis of pornography compulsion unless there is clear documentation that the viewing has been causing negative consequences for the individual. Most likely they would not diagnose anything related to porn usage at all since neither the international standards nor World Health Organization recognize the diagnosis.
What a lot of people also try to imply is that all porn usage causes negative consequences. It is a bit like the prohibition tactic implying that any alcohol consumption causes alcoholism and significant bodily harm. Naturally we won't find a study saying there is no correlation between alcoholism and alcohol consumption, and some of the studies is likely to imply that consumption of alcohol may cause alcoholism. What the more insightful studies show is the risk factors that makes a person more likely to become addicted or get compulsions and what factors gives protection against it. The usual finding in such studies are environmental factors rather than simply consumption.
Why do so many people like you crop up in any porn-related thread? You instantly assume anyone questioning the accessibility of pornography are on a religious tirade to abolish it and send us back to the days of the Puritans. Just because there's not some peer-reviewed studies saying "porn bad" doesn't mean it hasn't had negative effects on society.
DSM-5 and ICD-11 are incredibly slow and it takes years and may be decades for them to be able to write to manual on something new like compulsive usage of digital products etc. it's hard to rely on them for newer problems that don't have lots of research done on them.
There are definitely groups out there pushing a religious or prudish agenda.
I'd like to offer my own anecdote, as a completely secular person whose lifestyle would probably invite condemnation, if not horror, from e.g. LDS. I won't describe exactly why they might feel that way, but let it suffice to say that I have spent non-trivial time around people who have done what some call victimless crimes, among other and more legal behaviors.
I find that I feel better emotionally and perform better professionally (and academically, when I was in school) when I refrain completely from this vice. I also find that I have much less intrusive thoughts of the sexual variety, especially at inappropriate times about inappropriate people.
I understand your concern that pseudoscientific and/or religious groups might be exerting this influence. I just wanted to give an example of the opposite.
See these videos [0] [1] where people in the gaming community (which in my experience is very often agnostic, if not atheist) have essentially a group coaching session with a psychologist for their undesired relationships to porn. Very rarely do they mention religion, but quite often do they mention emotional distress, life difficulties, social struggles, and difficulty stopping a behavior they find distressing. Whether or not it's an "addiction" (and scientific discussions related to the debate) I find irrelevant -- they personally wish they could stop and have trouble doing so.
I appreciate your efforts to, as I perceive it, point out potential sources of bias or misinformation. I just wanted to offer a totally secular view of the benefit of and reason why an app like this might have funding and a market.
[0] https://youtu.be/e1ndqAkiQZo
[1] https://youtu.be/lUVeUSIlQiI
I'd like to offer my own anecdote, as a completely secular person whose lifestyle would probably invite condemnation, if not horror, from e.g. LDS. I won't describe exactly why they might feel that way, but let it suffice to say that I have spent non-trivial time around people who have done what some call victimless crimes, among other and more legal behaviors.
I find that I feel better emotionally and perform better professionally (and academically, when I was in school) when I refrain completely from this vice. I also find that I have much less intrusive thoughts of the sexual variety, especially at inappropriate times about inappropriate people.
I understand your concern that pseudoscientific and/or religious groups might be exerting this influence. I just wanted to give an example of the opposite.
See these videos [0] [1] where people in the gaming community (which in my experience is very often agnostic, if not atheist) have essentially a group coaching session with a psychologist for their undesired relationships to porn. Very rarely do they mention religion, but quite often do they mention emotional distress, life difficulties, social struggles, and difficulty stopping a behavior they find distressing. Whether or not it's an "addiction" (and scientific discussions related to the debate) I find irrelevant -- they personally wish they could stop and have trouble doing so.
I appreciate your efforts to, as I perceive it, point out potential sources of bias or misinformation. I just wanted to offer a totally secular view of the benefit of and reason why an app like this might have funding and a market.
[0] https://youtu.be/e1ndqAkiQZo
[1] https://youtu.be/lUVeUSIlQiI
I’m not sure the LDS church would be too keen on funding an app named after a Hindu concept.
Atmana is a combination of 2 sanskrit words. there's nothing hindu about the name at all.
What two words are they?
"Atmana" invokes imagery of "Atman"and "Mana" particularly for native english speakers; both words are highly connected to spiritual and/or philosophical concepts that most devout members of Abrahamic faiths are not going to be comfortable with.
"Atmana" invokes imagery of "Atman"and "Mana" particularly for native english speakers; both words are highly connected to spiritual and/or philosophical concepts that most devout members of Abrahamic faiths are not going to be comfortable with.
Isn’t it like dieting? What I mean is that digital escapism is a symptom, not a problem. Before social media existed, people used to fill up their time with:
1) Having many children
2) Watching TV
3) Excessive alcohol use etc.
Media addiction is a manifestation of something, not the root cause.
Media addiction is a manifestation of something, not the root cause.
> Media addiction is a manifestation of something, not the root cause.
I only partly agree. I have two children. We are loving parents and provide them with a stable house, lots of food, plenty of attention. They have friends, toys, games, books, musical instruments, bikes, and a whole neighborhood to explore. We are an extremely typical middle-class household.
But left to their own devices, they will happily spend every waking hour in front a screen, watching videos or playing video games. There most certainly _is_ something incredibly mentally addicting about passive content consumption. It doesn't need a root cause, just like you don't need one with alcohol and other substance addiction.
(And because this is HN, I am obliged to point out that I'm not saying media addiction can't be triggered by some other factor. Only that a trigger is not required to cause the addiction.)
I only partly agree. I have two children. We are loving parents and provide them with a stable house, lots of food, plenty of attention. They have friends, toys, games, books, musical instruments, bikes, and a whole neighborhood to explore. We are an extremely typical middle-class household.
But left to their own devices, they will happily spend every waking hour in front a screen, watching videos or playing video games. There most certainly _is_ something incredibly mentally addicting about passive content consumption. It doesn't need a root cause, just like you don't need one with alcohol and other substance addiction.
(And because this is HN, I am obliged to point out that I'm not saying media addiction can't be triggered by some other factor. Only that a trigger is not required to cause the addiction.)
> There most certainly _is_ something incredibly mentally addicting about passive content consumption. It doesn't need a root cause, just like you don't need one with alcohol and other substance addiction.
One of the problems with porn is that it's so easily accessible. With alcohol or cigarettes or dieting it helps to have the thing out of site, ie don't buy it. But with porn, you can hop on any of the many available devices and in seconds get access to new videos every day. Also porn is very easy to hide. it's a lot harder to hide cig smoke, being drunk or high.
I think that's the beauty of this app - it has a strong blocker that makes porn not as accessible and the community aspect makes it hard to hide.
One of the problems with porn is that it's so easily accessible. With alcohol or cigarettes or dieting it helps to have the thing out of site, ie don't buy it. But with porn, you can hop on any of the many available devices and in seconds get access to new videos every day. Also porn is very easy to hide. it's a lot harder to hide cig smoke, being drunk or high.
I think that's the beauty of this app - it has a strong blocker that makes porn not as accessible and the community aspect makes it hard to hide.
I have wondered if this is materially different from previous generations children sitting glassy-eyed in front of the TV? I certainly spent at least a couple of hours a day doing that as a kid, with the added minus of having little control over what was on, or any way to block advertising... I suppose it did expose me to a lot of things I wouldn't have voluntarily sought out, though.
A couple of hours a day isn't great, but it's probably fine. That leaves you plenty of time for other things. Some kids these days spend far far longer than that in front of screens.
I agree with your view on the addictiveness of media, exept that the addiction has no root cause. My experience with alcohol and other substance abuse problems is that there is always an underlying psychological root cause. I beleive the same to be true of media addiction; excessive use to the point of "addiction" is escapism from some psychological distress.
I think this is completely wrong, our brains have reward pathways and someone could just as easily be escaping mild boredom rather than psychological distress. I have known a number of opiate addicts, including myself for a time, and in all cases it was triggered by a prescription due to an accident, or experimentation among otherwise exceptionally happy kids. In two cases this resulted in the person's death by overdose. Now, eventually the addiction did cause psychological distress, certainly, but I disagree categorically that there has to be some underlying psychological root cause.
I think I follow your logic, but I think it has an ommission. Using your model, how do you explain the majority of people who use addictive things with no issue, they have reward pathways the same as the "addicts". Are there not other factors that make the difference between a user and an abuser of something?
To use your example of mild boredom: boredom is felt by everyone yet most people choose healthy choices over addictive behaviour. Is there simply some luck in how we are exposed to an addictive experience or do some people seek addictive rewards to overcome some greater pain?
To use your example of mild boredom: boredom is felt by everyone yet most people choose healthy choices over addictive behaviour. Is there simply some luck in how we are exposed to an addictive experience or do some people seek addictive rewards to overcome some greater pain?
With all due respect, kindness and context that I do not know you, your kids, family context, views or environment.
In my experience, kids who has plenty of access and exposure to multiple different hobbies tend to chose to spend their time on hobbies rather than passive consumption. I know one example where the parents goal was a minimum of 2 hobbies at any time when the kid grow up so that if they lost enthusiasm for one they can always refocus on the other. Together with school activities, homework, and dedicated (and planed) social time between the parent and child, there simply isn't much time to choose passive content consumption.
Every family is different and it is not a universal cure for anything, but I think it demonstrate that kids do not simply choose passive content consumption out of an addiction. They chose it when it seems like the best option among the accessible/experienced alternatives.
In my experience, kids who has plenty of access and exposure to multiple different hobbies tend to chose to spend their time on hobbies rather than passive consumption. I know one example where the parents goal was a minimum of 2 hobbies at any time when the kid grow up so that if they lost enthusiasm for one they can always refocus on the other. Together with school activities, homework, and dedicated (and planed) social time between the parent and child, there simply isn't much time to choose passive content consumption.
Every family is different and it is not a universal cure for anything, but I think it demonstrate that kids do not simply choose passive content consumption out of an addiction. They chose it when it seems like the best option among the accessible/experienced alternatives.
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My kid goes through phases. We don't restrict or give any special attention to the device and he is free to use it as he wishes apart from just before bedtime. He will go through phases of using it more or less or sometimes not at all. There have been months where he never turned it on once. Given that computing is such a massive tool for life I'm not sure why you think your kids using a computer is a negative thing?
Yes, it is like dieting, but I don't agree that it's necessarily a symptom of some underlying problem.
I used to think fat people were fat simply by choice. I mean, they are the only ones lifting the fork, right? But I no longer think it's this simple. We are the result of billions of years of evolution in a world where food was scarce. Those who didn't compete for food perished. Those who ate as much as they could when it was available survived. Nobody got fat because it was simply not possible.
Sex is similar. We are descended from males who mated with as many women as they could. Maybe not all men are like me, but there is a part of my brain that literally wants to mate with every attractive woman I see. Obviously this is not possible for many reasons, but like all men, I do have as much sex as I possibly can, it's just not that much (not more than once a day). But you can read stories from rock stars and the like who do have access to much more sex and it can ruin their lives. This high availability is analogous to the high availability of food in modern times.
Porn provides this high availability for normal people. It's like constantly available junk food. Even if I don't go looking for it, I am surrounded by it everywhere I look. Every other Youtube video is a woman with cleavage in the thumbnail. It's like being a fat person constantly surrounded with a buffet wherever I go. And remember, it's porn. It's not like I'm surrounded by cabbages and carrots, I'm surrounded by cakes and biscuits.
I fail to see how climbing a mountain or starting a business or any of the other wholesome pursuits you might be thinking of would curb the desire to eat or mate. The underlying problem here is deeply rooted in our animal brains. The best way to curb the eating problem is to ensure food isn't available. Don't keep any ready-to-eat food in your house. The best way to curb the sex problem is exactly the same.
I used to think fat people were fat simply by choice. I mean, they are the only ones lifting the fork, right? But I no longer think it's this simple. We are the result of billions of years of evolution in a world where food was scarce. Those who didn't compete for food perished. Those who ate as much as they could when it was available survived. Nobody got fat because it was simply not possible.
Sex is similar. We are descended from males who mated with as many women as they could. Maybe not all men are like me, but there is a part of my brain that literally wants to mate with every attractive woman I see. Obviously this is not possible for many reasons, but like all men, I do have as much sex as I possibly can, it's just not that much (not more than once a day). But you can read stories from rock stars and the like who do have access to much more sex and it can ruin their lives. This high availability is analogous to the high availability of food in modern times.
Porn provides this high availability for normal people. It's like constantly available junk food. Even if I don't go looking for it, I am surrounded by it everywhere I look. Every other Youtube video is a woman with cleavage in the thumbnail. It's like being a fat person constantly surrounded with a buffet wherever I go. And remember, it's porn. It's not like I'm surrounded by cabbages and carrots, I'm surrounded by cakes and biscuits.
I fail to see how climbing a mountain or starting a business or any of the other wholesome pursuits you might be thinking of would curb the desire to eat or mate. The underlying problem here is deeply rooted in our animal brains. The best way to curb the eating problem is to ensure food isn't available. Don't keep any ready-to-eat food in your house. The best way to curb the sex problem is exactly the same.
> Sex is similar. We are descended from males who mated with as many women as they could. Maybe not all men are like me, but there is a part of my brain that literally wants to mate with every attractive woman I see.
Not quite. We are descended from sexual pairs whose children survived long enough to reproduce. Often, it took at least both mother and father to keep children alive. And human female reproduction selects for males who stick around, primarily by hiding most signs of ovulation, unlike many other mammals with obvious signs of momentary fertility.
But you're not wrong either. Both male and female reproductive strategies want to maximize number and viability of offspring, but the female cost is much higher than the male cost in time and energy, so males can theoretically roam more easily. In the past, mobility and low populations generally limited that ability (though Genghis Khan managed). That's the disconnect between prehistoric and modern humans that porn and dating apps exploit.
Not quite. We are descended from sexual pairs whose children survived long enough to reproduce. Often, it took at least both mother and father to keep children alive. And human female reproduction selects for males who stick around, primarily by hiding most signs of ovulation, unlike many other mammals with obvious signs of momentary fertility.
But you're not wrong either. Both male and female reproductive strategies want to maximize number and viability of offspring, but the female cost is much higher than the male cost in time and energy, so males can theoretically roam more easily. In the past, mobility and low populations generally limited that ability (though Genghis Khan managed). That's the disconnect between prehistoric and modern humans that porn and dating apps exploit.
Often the "father" who helped care for the children was not the biological father.
"It takes a village." Extended family care and smaller tight-nit communities were more common than they are now. If you're talking about extra-pair paternity, it's estimated to be only 2% in humans.
> like all men, I do have as much sex as I possibly can
Yes it is very similar to dieting. Generally people get Bored/Nervous/Sad/Angry and try to eliminate that emotion with a hit of dopamine via some external input like Food/Sex/Drugs/Entertainment instead of recognizing the emotion and dealing with it another way Meditation/Mindfulness/Therapy/Fixing a Life problem.
Removing all carbs from your home forces you to get out of the house to get junk food. During that time or because of the effort involved you may be able to control your emotions and make a better decision. The problem with porn is that it is so easy to get another way Phone, Another computer, saved locally on your hard drive.
Removing all carbs from your home forces you to get out of the house to get junk food. During that time or because of the effort involved you may be able to control your emotions and make a better decision. The problem with porn is that it is so easy to get another way Phone, Another computer, saved locally on your hard drive.
quite true, porn is definitely very hard to stay off of as it's easily accessible at any time from any device.
You could make porn a special occasion to look forward to by only consuming porn content in person, in real life, outside the home, at peep shows and striptease clubs.
i do agree this could be a symptom of another problem like depression etc. But, this is not true for all people. There are people who were perfectly normal and started watching porn out of curiosity or for entertainment and it became an escalating and eventually a compulsive behavior.
Yes probably many analogies to dieting. I doubt it would help everyone stick to a diet but I bet many would benefit from a timelock on their fridge door from 8 pm to 6 am :) Putting up roadblocks to slow yourself and remind you of what you committed to before is sometimes an effective strategy, in my experience.
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Suggestions for landing page copy:
- I would change the hero text "Helping Millennials Overcome Digital Addictions" to just "Overcome Digital Addictions"
- "millions" is not consistently capitalized.
- "Know more" -> "Learn more"
- I would change the hero text "Helping Millennials Overcome Digital Addictions" to just "Overcome Digital Addictions"
- "millions" is not consistently capitalized.
- "Know more" -> "Learn more"
sure, thanks so much. will correct these rightaway!
CovenantEyes has pretty advanced blocking/monitoring tech with a similar accountability system, you may want to check it out.
They use a VPN config on iOS to monitor traffic, and on MacOS make their monitoring app very difficult to uninstall without an uninstall key (which notifies your accountability partners)
They use a VPN config on iOS to monitor traffic, and on MacOS make their monitoring app very difficult to uninstall without an uninstall key (which notifies your accountability partners)
true, they do have a good blocking system. i have tried their products.
I think the best blocking system, if you have a regular job which provides work laptops would be, just use your work computer for everything. Lock up your personal laptop somewhere.
What are you replacing porn with? Addiction or not, porn is a symptom of urban life, the tabooization of sex (paid or not) and the death of social clubs. Is there research that shows that such "blocking" interventions make people happier?
The important thing is many people WANT to reduce their consumption of this stuff but have difficulty doing so. It's a perfectly valid endeavor to provide tools or interventions that help them to do this. Not every therapeutic tool has to be backed by hard "research".
There are definitely various forms of internet addiction which are growing rapidly and it appears traditional psychiatry hasn't been able to keep up. A community-based approach to address this problem for folks with common goals seems like a good idea. I don't know how I feel about this as a YC "start-up" but there's nothing wrong with the concept which at least tries to solve a real problem.
There are definitely various forms of internet addiction which are growing rapidly and it appears traditional psychiatry hasn't been able to keep up. A community-based approach to address this problem for folks with common goals seems like a good idea. I don't know how I feel about this as a YC "start-up" but there's nothing wrong with the concept which at least tries to solve a real problem.
after speaking to users, we figured out that what to replace with is best left to the user based on their choices. a lot of our users keep posting in our forums that they took up weight lifting, exercises, meditation etc. to distract them from their problematic behavior. as to studies, there is very little research on impact of porn. but, our users seem to be happy when they make progress and stay off porn for a long time. for some of them, it's very measurable as there is prevelance of problems like erectile dysfunction (ED), finding partner unattractive sexually etc. which affects person's sexual life. overcoming porn has improved sexual life of many people based on experiences shared by them.
So that's a "no" to the question of whether there is any empirical evidence saying that this intervention has a positive effect. Got it. No evidence.
This isn't an 'intervention'. These are individuals
choosing to make a change in their habits.
It's for that person to decide whether changing their habits is a positive goal to pursue.
It's for that person to decide whether changing their habits is a positive goal to pursue.
It’s absolutely an intervention in the technical sense of the term.
it's an intervention only because the user is looking for an intervention to overcome some behaviors that are negatively impacting their life.
“Happiness” is one of the very few areas where self-reported data is still very good data.
i second that.
> After failing to monetize any healthy habit apps, I decided to work on reducing harmful habits, hoping this would be easier to monetize.
effects don't matter, making money matters
effects don't matter, making money matters
i mean, it's quite qualitative at this point. this is not well understood yet. hopefully, in the coming years, there will be more data on the same.
https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articl...
> 56 neuroscience-based studies [...] All but one provide support for the addiction model as their findings mirror the neurological findings reported in substance addiction studies.
> Over 60 studies reporting findings consistent with escalation of porn use (tolerance), habituation to porn, and even withdrawal symptoms
> over 40 studies linking porn use/porn addiction to sexual problems and lower arousal to sexual stimuli
> Over 80 studies link porn use to poorer sexual and relationship satisfaction
> Over 90 studies link porn use to poorer mental-emotional health & poorer cognitive outcomes.
> over 40 studies link porn use to “un-egalitarian attitudes” toward women and sexist views
> Got it. No evidence.
> 56 neuroscience-based studies [...] All but one provide support for the addiction model as their findings mirror the neurological findings reported in substance addiction studies.
> Over 60 studies reporting findings consistent with escalation of porn use (tolerance), habituation to porn, and even withdrawal symptoms
> over 40 studies linking porn use/porn addiction to sexual problems and lower arousal to sexual stimuli
> Over 80 studies link porn use to poorer sexual and relationship satisfaction
> Over 90 studies link porn use to poorer mental-emotional health & poorer cognitive outcomes.
> over 40 studies link porn use to “un-egalitarian attitudes” toward women and sexist views
> Got it. No evidence.
Your Brain On Porn is a quack site run by religious fundamentalists.
You are going to need an actual argument if you want to invalidate all of that research.
i guess these are studies that indicate the harmful effects. but, the question was about whether quitting porn can make people happy. i guess that's not quantified. also, happiness is quite difficult to quantify in general.
The username and the obsessive refs by the person you're responding to make me want to totally dismiss him. You see that kind of stuff a lot with this particular topic.
HOWEVER, many people simply want to change their own behavioral patterns and have a hard time doing it. Will they be measurably "happy" if they succeed? That's not the point. There's value in being able to do something (or stop doing something).
None of these things are ever going to be "quantifiable" in a practical sense.
HOWEVER, many people simply want to change their own behavioral patterns and have a hard time doing it. Will they be measurably "happy" if they succeed? That's not the point. There's value in being able to do something (or stop doing something).
None of these things are ever going to be "quantifiable" in a practical sense.
> The username and the obsessive refs by the person you're responding to make me want to totally dismiss him
How rational of you.
How rational of you.
Can it make you happy? Probably not. Can it make you more happy? Almost guaranteed.
I live in a place where sex isn’t taboo (paid or not), there are social clubs although I am not sure what the connection is there, and we still have pornography technology that sometimes people get compulsive about. Before this, I lived a rural lifestyle and there was also access to porn there.
This app also doesn’t seem to work as an intervention, it is something the person themselves chooses to use or not.
This app also doesn’t seem to work as an intervention, it is something the person themselves chooses to use or not.
What does porn have to do with "urban life"? I also don't see a connection to social clubs. Could you elaborate on this?
Any habit taken mostly by men will be demonized.
Congratulations on the HN launch, Tejas. This has been quite many years in the making! Kudos for persisting.
> Compulsive porn usage is a taboo topic. Millions of people want to get away from this behavior, but it's an embarrassing problem to discuss socially.
Definitely: https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/ Some folks clearly signal a need for this no doubt, while others who've quit porn, report substantial improvement in their personal relationships, as well.
> Blocking adult content effectively is quite challenging as users will always find ways to bypass the blocking. The difficulty is to make the blocking robust enough that the user can't bypass it, but at the same time that the blocking only happens on adult content and not others (minimizing false positives). We have done a bunch of optimizations on our Android and iOS apps to make it just right – we consider multiple signals before blocking to ensure the blocking is accurate most of the time.
I co-develop an open-source content-blocker for Android based on DNS and IP addresses. The top feature requests have always been around blocking porn and social media. We rely on publicly-curated blocklists for that, so that's one source of lagging indicator where some domains pass through.
Besides, for an Android app to track user's habits (accountability) is achievable, but letting a user never bypass it isn't do-able at all, because the phone and all its Settings are in control of the users themselves. As one example, if users set DNS to point to family.cloudflare.com, they can also unset it just as easily. If the user needs to start the app to track porn/social-media usage, they can also force-stop the app just as well.
A hardware-based firewall like firewalla or PfSense can be more powerful in terms of preventing a bypass network-wide, but it isn't mobile, and its effectiveness is limited to home networks.
So: I am curious (and you stress more than once in your post) how does BlockerX accomplish preventing its users from bypassing block protections?
> Compulsive porn usage is a taboo topic. Millions of people want to get away from this behavior, but it's an embarrassing problem to discuss socially.
Definitely: https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/ Some folks clearly signal a need for this no doubt, while others who've quit porn, report substantial improvement in their personal relationships, as well.
> Blocking adult content effectively is quite challenging as users will always find ways to bypass the blocking. The difficulty is to make the blocking robust enough that the user can't bypass it, but at the same time that the blocking only happens on adult content and not others (minimizing false positives). We have done a bunch of optimizations on our Android and iOS apps to make it just right – we consider multiple signals before blocking to ensure the blocking is accurate most of the time.
I co-develop an open-source content-blocker for Android based on DNS and IP addresses. The top feature requests have always been around blocking porn and social media. We rely on publicly-curated blocklists for that, so that's one source of lagging indicator where some domains pass through.
Besides, for an Android app to track user's habits (accountability) is achievable, but letting a user never bypass it isn't do-able at all, because the phone and all its Settings are in control of the users themselves. As one example, if users set DNS to point to family.cloudflare.com, they can also unset it just as easily. If the user needs to start the app to track porn/social-media usage, they can also force-stop the app just as well.
A hardware-based firewall like firewalla or PfSense can be more powerful in terms of preventing a bypass network-wide, but it isn't mobile, and its effectiveness is limited to home networks.
So: I am curious (and you stress more than once in your post) how does BlockerX accomplish preventing its users from bypassing block protections?
thanks for your kind words and comment.
As to how we prevent bypasses, we have a many little things that overall work really well. E.g. in iOS, if user disables a vpn profile, we have a way to enable this in a few seconds. in android, with a few additional permissions, we can block force stop and many such ways of bypassing. there are 100s of loopholes with a blocker. we have meticulously plugged many of them one by one. and we're still continuing to plug each day.
As to how we prevent bypasses, we have a many little things that overall work really well. E.g. in iOS, if user disables a vpn profile, we have a way to enable this in a few seconds. in android, with a few additional permissions, we can block force stop and many such ways of bypassing. there are 100s of loopholes with a blocker. we have meticulously plugged many of them one by one. and we're still continuing to plug each day.
This is such a laudable aim. Hope you succeed.
Compulsive behaviour of any kind is terribly harmful and undesired porn watching is even worse because it is humiliating (to oneself) and destroys self-esteem…
Wish you the best.
Compulsive behaviour of any kind is terribly harmful and undesired porn watching is even worse because it is humiliating (to oneself) and destroys self-esteem…
Wish you the best.
Thanks for your kind words and support. the shame and guilt associated with this makes it very traumatic for some people.
> the shame and guilt associated with this makes it very traumatic for some people.
It's laughable that you think the solution to a problem like this is to share one's own vulnerabilities with a faceless private company.
It's laughable that you think the solution to a problem like this is to share one's own vulnerabilities with a faceless private company.
You shouldn't be posting mean and snarky one-liners to HN, let alone shallow dismissals of someone's work. All that is against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Even so I have some sympathy with the point behind your point and it makes me want to write something.
It's true that our society has commodified and mechanized a lot of what used to be, and arguably should still be, human relations. But we shouldn't let the good be the enemy of the better. Your comment reminds me of a Launch HN from last week of a startup that provides advances to blue-collar workers on their wages (in a better way than payday loans). They had a story of some guy who ran out of gas, signed up for their app from the side of a highway, and got enough money to get gas and keep going. My first thought was: people shouldn't be paid so little that that can happen to them in the first place. On the other hand, those economics aren't going away soon, and it was much better for that man that the app existed, instead of staying stranded on the side of the road.
In that case the active ingredient (the drug, one might say) was money and in this case it's sex, but either way, the startup is (presumably) doing some good, even if the broader context isn't changing much. I'm sure a lot of us feel queasy about the mixture of for-profit companies and helping people—but this is the nature of the web of economic and social relations in which we're all embedded. Non-profits have their own problems and it's certainly not the case that they are somehow immune from that web or pure of it. Quite the opposite.
One other thing: to say we're all embedded means we're all embedded. That includes you; I mean, you're expressing your desire for supportive relations to be free of profit motives on a forum operated by a company with profit motives—not only that, the very company that funded just the startup you're dissing, and why? Profit motive. I think it's important for people who care about human relations not to take the stone-casting attitude of pretending to be pure and denouncing others, as if they/we weren't also implicated in the system that has these properties. To pretend otherwise is self-deceptive and for my money that can only add problem, not solution.
If we can't allow profit motives to be mixed with nobler motives and call that a relatively good thing, the endgame of that stance is to leave nothing but profit motives. Of the available options, I think we should take the impure mixed bag.
It's true that our society has commodified and mechanized a lot of what used to be, and arguably should still be, human relations. But we shouldn't let the good be the enemy of the better. Your comment reminds me of a Launch HN from last week of a startup that provides advances to blue-collar workers on their wages (in a better way than payday loans). They had a story of some guy who ran out of gas, signed up for their app from the side of a highway, and got enough money to get gas and keep going. My first thought was: people shouldn't be paid so little that that can happen to them in the first place. On the other hand, those economics aren't going away soon, and it was much better for that man that the app existed, instead of staying stranded on the side of the road.
In that case the active ingredient (the drug, one might say) was money and in this case it's sex, but either way, the startup is (presumably) doing some good, even if the broader context isn't changing much. I'm sure a lot of us feel queasy about the mixture of for-profit companies and helping people—but this is the nature of the web of economic and social relations in which we're all embedded. Non-profits have their own problems and it's certainly not the case that they are somehow immune from that web or pure of it. Quite the opposite.
One other thing: to say we're all embedded means we're all embedded. That includes you; I mean, you're expressing your desire for supportive relations to be free of profit motives on a forum operated by a company with profit motives—not only that, the very company that funded just the startup you're dissing, and why? Profit motive. I think it's important for people who care about human relations not to take the stone-casting attitude of pretending to be pure and denouncing others, as if they/we weren't also implicated in the system that has these properties. To pretend otherwise is self-deceptive and for my money that can only add problem, not solution.
If we can't allow profit motives to be mixed with nobler motives and call that a relatively good thing, the endgame of that stance is to leave nothing but profit motives. Of the available options, I think we should take the impure mixed bag.
Sure, all of humanity is inherently tainted by profit motives or whatever. That doesn't change the fact that trusting a Y Combinator startup with this kind of sensitive private medical information is a uniquely terrible idea. That information is going to leak, whether intentionally (maybe they'll "pivot" to selling it) or unintentionally via security issues like poor internal access control.
Doctors also earn money, but they're human beings with actual identities, not legal entities that don't even list contact information on their website, and they're at least sort of bound by professional oaths and privacy laws.
Doctors also earn money, but they're human beings with actual identities, not legal entities that don't even list contact information on their website, and they're at least sort of bound by professional oaths and privacy laws.
That was my point, I don't know why everyone got what I said as anti capitalist rant.
The only reason I would trust a therapist with my personal life details is because of doctor patient confidentiality and there's absolutely no digital record of our conversation.
I think trusting any app or online service with such details is absolutely wrong with zero room for budging, and arguing that "well, maybe this company is okay" is naive to say the least.
The only reason I would trust a therapist with my personal life details is because of doctor patient confidentiality and there's absolutely no digital record of our conversation.
I think trusting any app or online service with such details is absolutely wrong with zero room for budging, and arguing that "well, maybe this company is okay" is naive to say the least.
> I don't know why everyone got what I said as anti capitalist rant.
If you post snarky, shallow internet rhetoric, of course it will be misinterpreted in all sorts of ways. That's precisely to be expected.
Would you please stop posting like that to HN? It's destructive of what this site is supposed to be for. Please make your substantive points thoughtfully. Other people will be more likely to hear what you actually mean in that case too.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
If you post snarky, shallow internet rhetoric, of course it will be misinterpreted in all sorts of ways. That's precisely to be expected.
Would you please stop posting like that to HN? It's destructive of what this site is supposed to be for. Please make your substantive points thoughtfully. Other people will be more likely to hear what you actually mean in that case too.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
support groups do help. it's proven to be effective with substance abuse addictions. we are helping people with a support group where users can share and help each other.
They're sharing on your "platform". The only reason for you to do this is because it's profitable to you for some reason, hence, you're capitalizing on people's pains.
Support groups help in real life, not over some app where a faceless entity's purpose of existence is to extract your money.
Support groups help in real life, not over some app where a faceless entity's purpose of existence is to extract your money.
Eh, that's a low bar. By that metric therapists also capitalize on other people's pain.
They do but there’s nothing wrong with that. Everything in life is an economic transaction if it involves more than one person. The other poster is just being pedantic and a bit mean.
The therapists (and the app) are supposed to capitalize on improvement. Saying that they capitalize on pain takes a dystopic perspective that I find unjustified. Until they are shown to employ dark patterns, we shouldn't dismiss them like that.
That’s fair but I think the difference is arbitrary. They exist because people are in pain or suffering so their market is people who are suffering. Again I do not think it’s a bad thing that people capitalize on their suffering as long as they are providing a (mutually) beneficial service.
I see what you mean. And I still find "capitalize on pain" too broad a framing for what the app. Characterizing it that way does not inform and draws parallels to other, less ethical players that "capitalize on pain". Such as Purdue Pharma for example.
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How many people who struggle with porn are actually just using it as a replacement for dealing with more destructive addictions? This was the issue for me, as a problem gambler porn became a scapegoat that I had more control over then gambling. It became a scapegoat for other things as well like not taking care of myself.
The thing is, it was only when I decided to stop having an unhealthy relationship with porn full of negativity and self hatred that I began to focus on my actual issues.
I use porn multiple times a week now, but I make sure to enjoy it, and make sure to think positively afterwards. It is incredible how just shifting your perspective can change things. Porn was not the problem, thinking it was is what put me in a cycle of self hatred.
Now don’t get me wrong, building up willpower and having a foundation to change your life is very powerful, but make sure you are changing the right thing.
A healthy relationship with porn and self love has actually been incredibly beneficial to dealing with my real addiction: gambling.
The thing is, it was only when I decided to stop having an unhealthy relationship with porn full of negativity and self hatred that I began to focus on my actual issues.
I use porn multiple times a week now, but I make sure to enjoy it, and make sure to think positively afterwards. It is incredible how just shifting your perspective can change things. Porn was not the problem, thinking it was is what put me in a cycle of self hatred.
Now don’t get me wrong, building up willpower and having a foundation to change your life is very powerful, but make sure you are changing the right thing.
A healthy relationship with porn and self love has actually been incredibly beneficial to dealing with my real addiction: gambling.
thanks for sharing your experience. i guess it's different for different people. i have heard stories of young men who had erectile dysfunction. They could not get an erection with their partner but could an erection with porn. quitting porn has helped many such people overcome ED. before anyone asks, this relation of erectile dysfunction to porn is not yet proven. hopefully there will be more studies on the same in coming years. so, i would say for some quitting porn in itself improved their life conditions.
Do you have any science on that? A friend mentioned this to me, so I looked it up, and I could find no evidence (from reputable sources) that it's true. There does appear to be an increase in ED in younger men in recent years, and also a decrease in sperm count, but not one of the sources I found mentioned anything about porn usage being related.
Wikipedia has a good hint over the science for ED:
In about 80% of cases, physical causes can be identified.[2] These include cardiovascular disease; diabetes mellitus; neurological problems, such as those following prostatectomy; hypogonadism; and drug side effects. About 10% of cases are psychological impotence, caused by thoughts or feelings;[2] here, there is a strong response to placebo treatment.
If a patient can not get an erection with their partner but can with porn, the cause is unlikely to be physical.
In about 80% of cases, physical causes can be identified.[2] These include cardiovascular disease; diabetes mellitus; neurological problems, such as those following prostatectomy; hypogonadism; and drug side effects. About 10% of cases are psychological impotence, caused by thoughts or feelings;[2] here, there is a strong response to placebo treatment.
If a patient can not get an erection with their partner but can with porn, the cause is unlikely to be physical.
true, i haven't found any research paper on this too. But, I have seen this being shared in our community posts.
> quitting porn has helped many such people overcome porn
Sure. Is this a typo though? What do you mean exactly?
Sure. Is this a typo though? What do you mean exactly?
corrected this. i meant quitting porn has helped many such people overcome ED.
Probably a lot. On another level, do you think there is a universal ordering of addictions, or might it depend somewhat on individual proclivities? Say, might ones real addiction be porn, and they use gambling as a less harming replacement?
The caveat being the maximum levels of practical harm are much larger for some addictions than others.
I'm very curious what's your marketing strategy going to be? I have a feeling word-of-mouth isn't gonna work very well
that's true - our space is inherently non viral. we have so far gotten users organically through play store and google search. we are experimenting with paid marketing channels for growth.
> our space is inherently non viral
There are communities on the internet that are specifically for these issues. Light advertisement with the consent of various moderators would not be bad idea. /r/NoFap comes to mind specifically, but also various religious communities where the desire for NoFap extends more from religious obligations would still find this interesting, I imagine.
There are communities on the internet that are specifically for these issues. Light advertisement with the consent of various moderators would not be bad idea. /r/NoFap comes to mind specifically, but also various religious communities where the desire for NoFap extends more from religious obligations would still find this interesting, I imagine.
that's true. a few of our competitors are quite strong in religious channels to promote their products. this is definitely an interesting channel to explore. as to /r/nofap - for some reason this channel doesn't show in the sub reddits where ads can be shown. it could be due to adult words used in the forum (just a guess, not sure what the reason is).
I was thinking more organic sort of marketing in /r/nofap. Not actually placing ads but rather actually interacting with the members, and seeing if they'd be interested in such a tool. More work, but also more viable to get customers that are die-hard fans sort of thing.
Would you consider advertising on porn sites?
that's actually a good idea. however, 99.5+% of those who watch porn might not have a problem with it and hence, might not need our solution. but, worth exploring, this could be similar to running banner ads where a small % of impressions result in click.
There are many organizations (worldwide) that deal with digital addictions; it might be worth reaching out to them as well, or getting known in those circles.
that's an interesting idea. will explore this further. do reply if you know any such organizations at the top of your head.
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Is porn really a problem, or is this an excuse to inject big brother into peoples lives.
I’ve always considered it incredibly creepy and suspicious that people even want to get into “nofap enforcement movement”. This is like religious morality policing you would find in places like Iran.
I don’t like it. And think one should do some soul searching over why you need to push your morality on others.
I’ve always considered it incredibly creepy and suspicious that people even want to get into “nofap enforcement movement”. This is like religious morality policing you would find in places like Iran.
I don’t like it. And think one should do some soul searching over why you need to push your morality on others.
I honestly don't think there is any policing. there are groups like nofap because people who fundamentally believed that they wanted to quit porn came together and there's no force. people do this voluntarily based on their own choice.
If it was voluntary, there would be no need for a app. It’s policing and enforcement. Of some personal morality.
even with the app, only those who think our app will help them will install. it's not for everyone. we are firm believers in the free market economy and we are in no way saying that porn is bad or immoral etc. we are only assisting people who need help in quitting a problematic behavior.
> even with the app, only those who think our app will help them will install.
I already asked upthread, but since this is here: how do you intend to insure this? For example, how do you insure that minors who have this app installed by their parents or guardians will be able to remove or bypass it, particularly without the parent being able to detect that (and thereby prevent it via threats)?
I already asked upthread, but since this is here: how do you intend to insure this? For example, how do you insure that minors who have this app installed by their parents or guardians will be able to remove or bypass it, particularly without the parent being able to detect that (and thereby prevent it via threats)?
Can I ask, how are you blocking it?
Also, it seems rather strange to me that you focus on porn when social media is a bigger problem.
But that's probably because of my own bias, I've been trying to quit Reddit and other garbage for years.
Also, it seems rather strange to me that you focus on porn when social media is a bigger problem.
But that's probably because of my own bias, I've been trying to quit Reddit and other garbage for years.
our block depends on the device, on android it's dns and showing an overlay on adult contnet. in ios it's through dns/vpn.
regarding social media - that's next on our list! porn was the 1st use case and we plan to help people limit social media and gaming in the coming years.
regarding social media - that's next on our list! porn was the 1st use case and we plan to help people limit social media and gaming in the coming years.
Hi tejas,
First off, thanks for building this app. I will explain where I am coming from (no pun intended), I have been watching porn since I was twelve years old. I am 25 now, its a habit I have been trying to quit. I have only been able to tone it down a bit, earlier I would download porno (I had 100s of GBs of porno on an external HDD once) but now I just stream it but still that is barely an improvement. I just installed your app and tried it out and I see a lot of potential and I am mulling over whether I should buy it or not.
I have a fairly successful career in tech but I absolutely hate the control that porn has on me and I am looking to rid myself of it. I also hate that it completely interrupts my focus and concentration. I was looking for alternatives and then I saw your post. I have cut social media out of my life successfully (FB, quora etc), never used IG, TikTok or Snap, never did like it. Hell, I even quit YT, I just use it for watching educational stuff that too on my laptop browser.
Some suggestions,
1. The pricing is prohibitively expensive (I live in India), the yearly plan. The one-time pricing, I understand though. Can you try varying it by geography, I know that might be difficult for a startup. Just so you know, I don't even have Netflix (way too expensive and a net negative IMO) so for penny-pinchers like me, this app is expensive. Also, do you have a monthly plan, wherin I could pay for a month and see if I want to continue paying, I only see a yearly plan and a buy once forever plan.
2. Please keep a longer trial period. If I am paying 100s of dollars for something, at the very least I would expect to use it for a couple of weeks and then decide. An optimal trial period would be 14-days, I know you can't offer months since developers and compute (AWS costs!) are no joke, so please try offering 14-days at the very minimum. I am afraid, 3 days is just too short to make a purchasing decision. Habits take time to build up.
I want to emphasize the 2nd point, I just don't have enough data right now and don't see how I can make a purchasing decision in 3 days. If you can, please have a longer trial period for premium features. Good luck, I want to see you guys succeed.
I have a fairly successful career in tech but I absolutely hate the control that porn has on me and I am looking to rid myself of it. I also hate that it completely interrupts my focus and concentration. I was looking for alternatives and then I saw your post. I have cut social media out of my life successfully (FB, quora etc), never used IG, TikTok or Snap, never did like it. Hell, I even quit YT, I just use it for watching educational stuff that too on my laptop browser.
Some suggestions,
1. The pricing is prohibitively expensive (I live in India), the yearly plan. The one-time pricing, I understand though. Can you try varying it by geography, I know that might be difficult for a startup. Just so you know, I don't even have Netflix (way too expensive and a net negative IMO) so for penny-pinchers like me, this app is expensive. Also, do you have a monthly plan, wherin I could pay for a month and see if I want to continue paying, I only see a yearly plan and a buy once forever plan.
2. Please keep a longer trial period. If I am paying 100s of dollars for something, at the very least I would expect to use it for a couple of weeks and then decide. An optimal trial period would be 14-days, I know you can't offer months since developers and compute (AWS costs!) are no joke, so please try offering 14-days at the very minimum. I am afraid, 3 days is just too short to make a purchasing decision. Habits take time to build up.
I want to emphasize the 2nd point, I just don't have enough data right now and don't see how I can make a purchasing decision in 3 days. If you can, please have a longer trial period for premium features. Good luck, I want to see you guys succeed.
A nuanced and sophisticated approach should be able to identify and address the more problematic aspects of this activity whilst also acknowledging that people engage in it for many valid reasons.
So, for example, it would be heart-warming to see efforts like this coupled with measures to help tackle some of the underling/driving issues that affect individuals such as unmet emotional needs, loneliness and emotional insecurity. Harm-causing factors from the broader social context also need to be explicitly identified and tackled, such as those social and cultural systems that weaponize and exploit naturally occurring human behaviours in service of various systematic and abusive control mechanisms.
So, for example, it would be heart-warming to see efforts like this coupled with measures to help tackle some of the underling/driving issues that affect individuals such as unmet emotional needs, loneliness and emotional insecurity. Harm-causing factors from the broader social context also need to be explicitly identified and tackled, such as those social and cultural systems that weaponize and exploit naturally occurring human behaviours in service of various systematic and abusive control mechanisms.
Hi Tejas - I hope you are very successful in this venture.
I can offer a potentially helpful data point. I was on a flight once next to a gentleman who was quite high in his local LDS church (not bishop but next level down?). He railed against porn addiction specifically as the root cause of many sorts of pain, and wished there was a tool just like this to help his flock avoid the porn demon. He worked with quite a few young men who actively struggled and I think a positive tool like this could have helped those guys get what they need. If you are looking for funding, I would definitely consider that a lot of deep pocketed folks are LDS church fathers.
I can offer a potentially helpful data point. I was on a flight once next to a gentleman who was quite high in his local LDS church (not bishop but next level down?). He railed against porn addiction specifically as the root cause of many sorts of pain, and wished there was a tool just like this to help his flock avoid the porn demon. He worked with quite a few young men who actively struggled and I think a positive tool like this could have helped those guys get what they need. If you are looking for funding, I would definitely consider that a lot of deep pocketed folks are LDS church fathers.
thanks for your suggestion.
What is it like to work at a company where you have to think about porn all day long, in your quest to help other people from over-consuming it?
Is it ever harmful for employees, who may be recovering from addiction?
Is it ever harmful for employees, who may be recovering from addiction?
Something that interests me is that you mention porn specifically in your title and write about it a lot in your body text, but the website itself seems to have a MUCH broader scope. It seems like there's a disconnect between the marketing and what your intentions are.
Are you developing this with preventing porn addicting in mind first, or are you treating all addictions equally? (IMO, social media addiction is a bigger problem, but as you probably know several good blocking programs exist)
Are you developing this with preventing porn addicting in mind first, or are you treating all addictions equally? (IMO, social media addiction is a bigger problem, but as you probably know several good blocking programs exist)
I truly appreciate your recognition of the problem and your sincere attempt at rectifying some of the behaviors that every generation is struggling with right now. I'd like to share some of my own personal experiences with the hope that it might influence your efforts in a positive direction.
The reason that I don't watch porn anymore has very little to do with personal discipline and more to do with a reframing of the people that produce it. Porn commoditizes a powerful part of the human experience. It is, in effect, prostitution. In order to recognize this, I had to have enough life experience to understand what sex is and is not, how people trade parts of their soul for money, and how people compartmentalize and lie to themselves. I also had to understand something about what keeps that machine running. That takes time.
I used to watch a lot of porn. I'm not sure that I would be able to fully convey and distill all the lessons I've learned since then to a version of myself that is 15 years younger and internally screaming for the kind of gratification that sex can bring. The only real way to absorb everything that you need to know is by actually living the experience. I needed to relate to people, to get messy and make mistakes and actually live and learn lessons about myself that you can't absorb through a computer monitor. Women are different when they're actually there with you in a way that you can smell, taste, and touch.
Once you realize that the heart is involved and that's the way that it should be, then you start to look at the Riley Reids or Sasha Greys of the world through a different lens. You see what they've sacrificed. It's not sexy anymore.
The reason that I don't watch porn anymore has very little to do with personal discipline and more to do with a reframing of the people that produce it. Porn commoditizes a powerful part of the human experience. It is, in effect, prostitution. In order to recognize this, I had to have enough life experience to understand what sex is and is not, how people trade parts of their soul for money, and how people compartmentalize and lie to themselves. I also had to understand something about what keeps that machine running. That takes time.
I used to watch a lot of porn. I'm not sure that I would be able to fully convey and distill all the lessons I've learned since then to a version of myself that is 15 years younger and internally screaming for the kind of gratification that sex can bring. The only real way to absorb everything that you need to know is by actually living the experience. I needed to relate to people, to get messy and make mistakes and actually live and learn lessons about myself that you can't absorb through a computer monitor. Women are different when they're actually there with you in a way that you can smell, taste, and touch.
Once you realize that the heart is involved and that's the way that it should be, then you start to look at the Riley Reids or Sasha Greys of the world through a different lens. You see what they've sacrificed. It's not sexy anymore.
thanks for sharing your experience. this is helpful!
Unfortunately, there is a lot of porn that is created without using real actors, like drawing or writing, which reframes the commodity as something the author did because they like drawing or writing, not because they sacrificed their physical body and entered an actual industry. Many of these works have themes of sex positivity and belonging, and so my mind creates an exception for them, because I make the excuse that "it's not pornography at the lowest level, it's art with the occasional pornographic content."
Maybe those artists sacrificed something too, but I don't see how it's any different from any average author sacrificing his life to write an all-ages novel.
The worst thing about porn addiction is that there are no physical dealers or substances involved. As long as your body is intact, all you need to become addicted is a screen and enough privacy, two things that are almost always available right before you go to sleep. And even without a screen, you can still use your imagination. Getting past that means finding other things in life to do that are more satisfying.
Maybe those artists sacrificed something too, but I don't see how it's any different from any average author sacrificing his life to write an all-ages novel.
The worst thing about porn addiction is that there are no physical dealers or substances involved. As long as your body is intact, all you need to become addicted is a screen and enough privacy, two things that are almost always available right before you go to sleep. And even without a screen, you can still use your imagination. Getting past that means finding other things in life to do that are more satisfying.
May I posit that, while they technically meet the definition of "pornography" in most dictionaries (and sometimes common use) that written erotic stories simply are in a different category altogether in many ways? Now, as a fair disclaimer, I personally have no moral objection to people getting erotic pleasure or stimulation from such media, in the abstract. I think it might actually be a net-healthy thing in some limited contexts.
But I do worry about how what sex acts are depicted as normal might scramble our interpersonal relationships. I worry about how implausibly beautiful people might damage our self-esteem. And the increasing integration into "endless scrolling" with a social aspect and the clicky-clicky dopamine feedback cycle is the death blow.
Most of these concerns are close to nil with an erotic short story, by comparison. To brutally chop this down to a simple idea: Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey think abstractly through imagination, monkey imagine but not see and so not do.
After all, don't you think it's telling that, while teen girls are hooked on the image-pornography of fake stardom lives on Instagram, and teen boys are hooked on OnlyFans content and half-clad Twitch streamers, that there is (to my knowledge) no epidemic of compulsive erotic story writing and reading to go with it? Oh, I'm sure some people do spend 12 hours a day at that, but it seems not to tickle our brains in quite the same way. Such things are merely sporadically titillating, not horrifically and compulsively addictive, at least for the typical person.
But I do worry about how what sex acts are depicted as normal might scramble our interpersonal relationships. I worry about how implausibly beautiful people might damage our self-esteem. And the increasing integration into "endless scrolling" with a social aspect and the clicky-clicky dopamine feedback cycle is the death blow.
Most of these concerns are close to nil with an erotic short story, by comparison. To brutally chop this down to a simple idea: Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey think abstractly through imagination, monkey imagine but not see and so not do.
After all, don't you think it's telling that, while teen girls are hooked on the image-pornography of fake stardom lives on Instagram, and teen boys are hooked on OnlyFans content and half-clad Twitch streamers, that there is (to my knowledge) no epidemic of compulsive erotic story writing and reading to go with it? Oh, I'm sure some people do spend 12 hours a day at that, but it seems not to tickle our brains in quite the same way. Such things are merely sporadically titillating, not horrifically and compulsively addictive, at least for the typical person.
Sex is just an activity. It's a workout and feels fun and exciting. The fact that you think a person sacrifices their heart for sex mean you don't have a healthy relationship with it. It's not a one sided thing, of giving or taking, it's consensually shared between people.
Sex can be, and I think should be, an emotionally fulfilling experience, but it's not a requirement as long as each person gets their needs met.
Sex can be, and I think should be, an emotionally fulfilling experience, but it's not a requirement as long as each person gets their needs met.
I can appreciate that you have a different view from mine, but I am feeling like you didn't quite understand what I wrote. That's okay. Your judgement is totally valid, and I hope that as your view evolves, you continue to publish it.
(Not optimistic, but I figure it's polite to ask rather than assume malice by default:)
How do you intend to insure that your software cannot be used to deny access to porn (and other objectionable content) to users who do want to access it, especially but not exclusively minors whom the software is used against by their legal guardians or other 'legitimate' authority figures.
How do you intend to insure that your software cannot be used to deny access to porn (and other objectionable content) to users who do want to access it, especially but not exclusively minors whom the software is used against by their legal guardians or other 'legitimate' authority figures.
Making a solid attempt to quit this year. I think I've finally managed to close almost all the remaining loopholes I've found. I've been using Detoxify and Purity, in combination with Block (to block Chrome/YT 24/7 and the Play Store at night). I also physically restrict access to certain devices at certain times of day with the use of smart plugs and shutdown scripts.
What I learned is that the compulsion is ridiculously strong. I also learned I don't really miss it. Like... I'm ok without it. Addictions never feel that way, that's what makes it so hard to quit, but in reality it's been really nice to feel OK without it. It's also been much better for my marriage. Honestly even usage once a month is problematic I have found.
Years ago I read chapter 4 of "The Brain That Changes Itself" as that chapter is all about porn. It really opened my eyes. Glad I'm finally getting it sorted. I found it seriously worth kicking it out of my life.
What I learned is that the compulsion is ridiculously strong. I also learned I don't really miss it. Like... I'm ok without it. Addictions never feel that way, that's what makes it so hard to quit, but in reality it's been really nice to feel OK without it. It's also been much better for my marriage. Honestly even usage once a month is problematic I have found.
Years ago I read chapter 4 of "The Brain That Changes Itself" as that chapter is all about porn. It really opened my eyes. Glad I'm finally getting it sorted. I found it seriously worth kicking it out of my life.
great to see that you're making progress. do checkout BlockerX to see if it might be helpful. all the best on your journey!
How does the blocking work on a technical level?
How do you prevent uninstalling?
How do you prevent uninstalling?
Is this done without any tracking or collecting any data on users? Anonymity is really hard and even huge companies get it wrong pretty often. Without anonymity I can't see it being a good idea but maybe it is just because I use a lot of energy on privacy.
we don't store any of the browsing activities and signing up with email is optional. Signing up with an account helps sync preferences across devices and users can choose to do that.
Great, I hope I will be able to quit Hacker News!
New Feature: get kicked off News.YC on demand - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=77173 - Nov 2007 (46 comments)
This sounds a bit like "just say no".
There must be hundereds of different reasons why different people consume (sometimes compulsively) various media of all types, some related to them individually, some related to the circumstancews they find themselves in, some for reasons so bizzare you wouldn't believe them unless you witnessed them.
Has any studies been done to show compulisive use of porn is better or worse for you than doomscrolling? I know which one I woudl choose.
I respect the effort and the intent, but I can't see how a one size prohibition approach fits all.
There must be hundereds of different reasons why different people consume (sometimes compulsively) various media of all types, some related to them individually, some related to the circumstancews they find themselves in, some for reasons so bizzare you wouldn't believe them unless you witnessed them.
Has any studies been done to show compulisive use of porn is better or worse for you than doomscrolling? I know which one I woudl choose.
I respect the effort and the intent, but I can't see how a one size prohibition approach fits all.
> like ad free experience
Are you not worried about linking socially stigmatised behaviour to advertising data?
Edit: to make it clear, this is a blocker - throwaway account for related reasons
Are you not worried about linking socially stigmatised behaviour to advertising data?
Edit: to make it clear, this is a blocker - throwaway account for related reasons
"Helping Millennials overcome digital additions"
A lot of millennials go visit their parents and see the parents could use this even more as the parents lack the social reinforcement to standardize or smooth out behaviors. (While younger people may have equally problematic social reinforcement that enables behaviors)
Do you think your messaging can incorporate a broader audience?
Like, an older parent or person might see your site as just validation of millennial problems, while seeing no introspective duty for themselves.
A lot of millennials go visit their parents and see the parents could use this even more as the parents lack the social reinforcement to standardize or smooth out behaviors. (While younger people may have equally problematic social reinforcement that enables behaviors)
Do you think your messaging can incorporate a broader audience?
Like, an older parent or person might see your site as just validation of millennial problems, while seeing no introspective duty for themselves.
Is this YC's version of getting in on the NoFap (and the porn "addiction") woo-ism? Such an odd thing to see on here.
Anyway, on a technical level, how do you deal with apps like Reddit/Twitter which have tons of porn content without the user leaving for external links that you can block? How do you monitor that?
Anyway, on a technical level, how do you deal with apps like Reddit/Twitter which have tons of porn content without the user leaving for external links that you can block? How do you monitor that?
We do enforce NSFW filtering among platforms that provide a NSFW filtered option. E.g. youtube has such an option. It's quite challenging with reddit and social media sites. we have some indirect ways of blocking some of the social media content but in most cases. Users can also completely block "risky" apps.
Along with this, you could maybe also enforce google safe search or similar for search engines? As far as I know, Google allows such a thing
yes, we do enforce google and bing safe search.
If you can have a presence in Utah or really anywhere in the Mormon Belt (Idaho, Utah, Arizona) you'll likely find many willing early adopters for this. It's pretty common to see billboards on the freeway for adult site blockers, etc.
Specifically near Brigham Young University in Provo...
Specifically near Brigham Young University in Provo...
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This is really interesting. Glad to see a new solution.
I do wonder if there's a way to take constant screenshots of the screen, use a ML model to recognize any "porn" and then disable it.
It's a terrible idea but my mind immediately went to it.
I do wonder if there's a way to take constant screenshots of the screen, use a ML model to recognize any "porn" and then disable it.
It's a terrible idea but my mind immediately went to it.
we did explore this option but screenshots drain down the battery heavily and hence, we had to drop this. we are still exploring this based on a certain risk score depending multiple factors like time, location, website accessed etc.
You got to automate it as much as possible to remove a Quitters Inc. like situation.
haha. didn't quite get what you want us to automate?
This is a great project. I recently read the books "Your brain on Porn" and "Quit Porn and get Rich".
Porn induced erectile dysfunction is now incredibly common. Younger and younger men are taking viagra and cialis and finding it doesn't help them. Those drugs are for older men that need help getting blood to their penis.
For these younger men who have been viewing hardcore internet pornography (not Playboys like I did as a kid) often see these videos before even having their first kiss. The drugs don't work because the problem isn't physical but instead is complete desensitization to real life intimacy of any kind.
Porn induced erectile dysfunction is now incredibly common. Younger and younger men are taking viagra and cialis and finding it doesn't help them. Those drugs are for older men that need help getting blood to their penis.
For these younger men who have been viewing hardcore internet pornography (not Playboys like I did as a kid) often see these videos before even having their first kiss. The drugs don't work because the problem isn't physical but instead is complete desensitization to real life intimacy of any kind.
thanks for sharing this. we have seen this problem first hand in our community.
Could a user download an app like reddit and watch porn through that app? What about x-rated images on Twitter, Instagram, 500px?
on android, adult content within social media apps will also be blocked. but, in iOS it's quite difficult, user will be able to access adult content on apps.
if you add news in there, i would sign up. nothing is more toxic and addicting than the news. check out in the book trust me, i’m lying by ryan holliday and you’ll see what i mean
Can this be adapted to keep our kids away from porn?
You can raise them well. Porn is not the issue, replacing reallife with porn is.
I know this isn't your fault, but I dislike society's tendency of trying to band-aid things instead of solving the actual issue. People wouldn't be addicted to sex if the media wasn't shoving it down your throat 24/7. If I open Netflix now, I guarantee at least half of the recommended shows are about sexual relationships, if not porn/sex worker stories explicitly. You can't get away from it.
This is a sci fi thing (literally black mirror) but one day when we have AR contacts, I would like to see what life would be like if I replaced women to look plain to me, like how I would be disinterested in men personally. Then I can live my life not being distracted, like in a work place, they'd just be another person I work with, no urges. I know I'm a creep for thinking that way.
The other part of me that thinks this it's like giving up. I think to truly not care you need true abundance (action).
Also extremes like pre-scanning incoming images on social media for semi-mature content and then blocking it, I do see that aspect.
It is a thing though "simping" i.e. OF or Hololive on YT(this is less sexual more on the social replacement aspect), etc... getting sucked into that... thankfully I have not personally done that. But I am still a lonely man that is true. Couple minutes of the pixel release and I'm on my way.
The other part of me that thinks this it's like giving up. I think to truly not care you need true abundance (action).
Also extremes like pre-scanning incoming images on social media for semi-mature content and then blocking it, I do see that aspect.
It is a thing though "simping" i.e. OF or Hololive on YT(this is less sexual more on the social replacement aspect), etc... getting sucked into that... thankfully I have not personally done that. But I am still a lonely man that is true. Couple minutes of the pixel release and I'm on my way.
Why would it be bad if you fancy a coworker? It happens.. As long as your don't do anything nonconsensual it's fine. Attraction is a normal thing. It's society that tries to make us feel weird about it.
I disagree. I personally think it would be less of an issue if it wasn't treated as such a taboo topic. Particularly in America, many people get far too worked up (IMO) about basic issues of sexuality or displays of anything mildly erotic in mainstream media.
Also, FWIW, I do not see any of these Netflix show recommendations with significant sexual undertones. Then again, we also do not watch any of the fake reality TV, "dating" shows, or other drama-based programming.
Also, FWIW, I do not see any of these Netflix show recommendations with significant sexual undertones. Then again, we also do not watch any of the fake reality TV, "dating" shows, or other drama-based programming.
This would be easy to test, do less prudish countries have less porn addiction?
As a European this also amazes me. Sexuality is frowned upon and people are made to feel bad about themselves for normal human behaviour (yet at the same time most porn is produced in the US). The only European country close to this level of sexual strictness is the UK (and Ireland)
Then on the other hand, glorifying violence is no problem whatsoever. To the extreme situation we have now where showing a nipple is pure evil but shooting someone in the face is badass. I just don't get this.
Not that I care very much, Americans are free to arrange their society as they see fit. But the problem is that American morals tend to spread a lot due to cultural sharing, like movies.
Then on the other hand, glorifying violence is no problem whatsoever. To the extreme situation we have now where showing a nipple is pure evil but shooting someone in the face is badass. I just don't get this.
Not that I care very much, Americans are free to arrange their society as they see fit. But the problem is that American morals tend to spread a lot due to cultural sharing, like movies.
Sex existed (and made people obsessed) before mass media.
> Sex existed before mass media
Reading the comment you are replying to, I don’t think they were trying to say it didn’t, but that it’s different now (for the reasons they enumerated)
Reading the comment you are replying to, I don’t think they were trying to say it didn’t, but that it’s different now (for the reasons they enumerated)
I push back against this statement:
> People wouldn't be addicted to sex if the media wasn't shoving it down your throat
Just read the Illiad to see how sexual obsessions have driven people since the dawn of history.
> People wouldn't be addicted to sex if the media wasn't shoving it down your throat
Just read the Illiad to see how sexual obsessions have driven people since the dawn of history.
Pervasive sexually explicit imagery definitely didn't.
I have some ancient greek pottery that would VIGOROUSLY disagree with you. Also fertility statutes. Also a mural I got from Kanamara Matsuri (Japanese penis festival) last year.
Pervasive sexually explicit (by today's standards) imagery most definitely has existed to varying degrees throughout antiquity.
I like the idea of an app to help porn addiction though. People can become addicted to anything, and another tool in the toolbelt for those people is nice and wholesome IMO.
Pervasive sexually explicit (by today's standards) imagery most definitely has existed to varying degrees throughout antiquity.
I like the idea of an app to help porn addiction though. People can become addicted to anything, and another tool in the toolbelt for those people is nice and wholesome IMO.
> I have some ancient greek pottery that would VIGOROUSLY disagree with you. Also fertility statutes.
a) Those are not pervasive at all. Pottery and statues are expensive and slow to produce and are found only in specific places.
b) Those are all low-level representations with a totally different purpose. A fertility statue is not comparable to a constant stream of young girls in bikini on Instagram.
"Fertility statue addiction" has never been a thing.
a) Those are not pervasive at all. Pottery and statues are expensive and slow to produce and are found only in specific places.
b) Those are all low-level representations with a totally different purpose. A fertility statue is not comparable to a constant stream of young girls in bikini on Instagram.
"Fertility statue addiction" has never been a thing.
> "Fertility statue addiction" has never been a thing
I have a room full of phallic statues from various tribes that proves this wrong.
Also I don't know how familiar you are with fertility statues, but a lot of them actually function as dildos too. And you can DEFINITELY get addicted to those!
I have a room full of phallic statues from various tribes that proves this wrong.
Also I don't know how familiar you are with fertility statues, but a lot of them actually function as dildos too. And you can DEFINITELY get addicted to those!
> "Fertility statue addiction" has never been a thing.
How do you know? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm genuinely curious how you know this. We do have ancient myths about people falling in love with statues.
How do you know? I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm genuinely curious how you know this. We do have ancient myths about people falling in love with statues.
not just imagery, but high definition videos that mimic reality with VR headsets etc.
that's true. our modern society is overly stimulating and using our innate instincts to attract attention.
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> People wouldn't be addicted to sex if the media wasn't shoving it down your throat 24/7.
What evidence do you have for this?
What evidence do you have for this?
A buddy system for curbing porn watching inevitably leads to the unfortunate and desperate scenario where you and your buddy close your eyes and swap hands.
Compulsive porn usage is a taboo topic. Millions of people want to get away from this behavior, but it's an embarrassing problem to discuss socially. Those who are struggling tend to get anxious and lonely which increases the chances that they further indulge in compulsive porn watching. This is the classic addictive cycle.
After discussing with many psychologists and psychiatrists, as well as our users, we have built features that help the user with: (1) Accountability: accountability to one's goals is quite important to succeed. With this in mind, we have a buddy system. Users can add a friend who controls the content allowed on the device and gets daily reports on what kind of content was accessed. (2) Judgement-free support: we have a community of over 100,000 people who are trying to overcome their porn problems. Users can participate anonymously in our community. This reduces shame/stigma and helps people get support from peers. (3) Blocking: We have an inbuilt blocker in our app which cuts out all ways to access porn and we have built it quite robustly so that there are no easy ways for most users to bypass it.
I've spent the last 3.5 years working on apps to do with habits. A colleague and I got started with building apps that we ourselves wanted for becoming healthy, like an app to gamify going to the gym everyday and an app to wake up early. After failing to monetize any healthy habit apps, I decided to work on reducing harmful habits, hoping this would be easier to monetize. I had personally benefited by cutting down porn in my life and it was quite difficult to quit this behavior. Hence I decided to help others who had a similar problem and launched NoPo, a porn de-addiction app. After a year of building many features, I closed it down due to lack of engagement. But after speaking to over 200 users of NoPo, I realized what our app didn’t do, which was: not showing the user their progress, not keeping the user accountable and not blocking porn on the device. After fixing all these issues, I launched BlockerX (https://blockerx.net/), my fifth app, which users are finding valuable in overcoming their porn related problems.
Blocking adult content effectively is quite challenging as users will always find ways to bypass the blocking. The difficulty is to make the blocking robust enough that the user can't bypass it, but at the same time that the blocking only happens on adult content and not others (minimizing false positives). We have done a bunch of optimizations on our Android and iOS apps to make it just right – we consider multiple signals before blocking to ensure the blocking is accurate most of the time.
We have a freemium model. Advanced features on the app require a premium subscription (like ad free experience, unlimited blocking, syncing of blocked items list across devices) but main functionality, e.g. blocking of adult websites, is free to use. Also, our marketing is currently oriented towards 18-to-30 year olds but this is just a starting point. We recognize that these problems are not limited to any age group and want to help everybody we can.
We would love to hear from all of you. If you have faced problems with porn or have seen someone you know face this problem, feel free to share your experiences and feedback. Thanks!